The American origins of the Chinese takeout font

[@jeff__w]

0:08 We were showing friends from Hong Kong around, young men in their 20s, and took them to a local Chinese restaurant. What made the biggest impression on them was _not_ the food (which to them was perfectly “okay”) but the stacks of Chinese takeout boxes (technically, “oyster pails”), with the stereotypical red chop suey font, that were piled high on top of the beverage fridge. They had never seen them in real-life before, only in US television shows or movies-in fact, they might have doubted that those existed anywhere _other than_ in films and TV-and that, to them, were quintessentially “American.”

[@Fridelain]

You don't even find those in European Chinese fast food / takeout places. Locally I've seen either disposable reusable Tupperware style plastic containers, the kind you can reheat in a microwave oven, or aluminium body, laminated cardboard top ones with the most generic branding on them, same as you'd get for fried chicken and fries in. I reuse the plastic ones, they are great for lunch prepping and storing in the fridge, since they stack nicely. The aluminium ones you'd think are the most environmentally conscious but they almost always end up in a landfill.

[@cameron7374]

@@Fridelain I think I've seen them used here in Germany but it's been a few years since I last had Chinese so I might be misremembering it or they stopped doing it.

[@difluzi2950]

@@cameron7374 I have indeed seen them in Germany as well.

[@rbrtdff]

I live in Scotland with relatives in America and when I visited them one of the most exciting objects I spotted that lived in my cultural subcoincious were those oyster pails! I had the exact same feeling seeing something that had previously only existed in films and television!

[@MilwaukeeWoman]

@@JenSell1626 yt is racist

[@aggressive_pizza1279]

I think another reason Chinese restaurants tend to avoid using the chop suey font is that nowadays it would be associated with "cheap" commercialized Asian food products like instant ramen. So it kinda became a caricature of itself. Edit: By "cheap" commercialized Asian food products I'm not referring to actual Asian products, but rather European or American products that want to "feel" Asian but in an inauthentic way like "We know this isn't traditional but y'know... *gong sound and stereotypical jingle *🇨🇳🧧🀄"

[@abyssstrider2547]

It looks cool as hell though.

[@strawberries217]

Not just that, the font itself reminds them the Chinese's stereotype.

[@jayeisenhardt1337]

"chop suey font is that nowadays it would be associated with "cheap" commercialized Asian food" I see what you mean. Cheap fast food, Chinese food made to the American taste buds. McDonald's in a different font. Still you gotta love it for what it is, that why it will always do well. It's just good, especially the buffet style. Best bang for the buck that's hard to refuse. Only place that beats it might be Mexican places where one plate is big enough for four people.

[@onemillionpercent]

yes for sure

[@robertschnobert9090]

@@strawberries217 are you sure? 🌈

[@shaoshuai_on_film]

As a Chinese designer living in Melbourne, I often use the Chop suey fonts on products to quickly separate Western made 'chinese' products from authentic Chinese product - since this font was never made and used in China.

[@minerscale]

@@radiobiologist Hahahaha this is surprisingly correct.

[@kreuner11]

@@radiobiologist or that weird serif font that's probably the default when the Chinese font doesn't have Latin characters

[@matchapocky]

the vibe really is 'single Chinese restaurant in a country town, its lace curtains and round window frozen in amber' huh

[@cameron7374]

@@kreuner11 I'm pretty sure most Chinese fonts have Latin characters as it's a comparatively small addition when you're already making hundreds to thousands of glyphs anyways. Though I remember hearing that those aren't always great, especially in older fonts. So it might just be the Latin characters from whatever font is the default on Windows in China.

[@ziyuan1989]

@@kreuner11 Actually when we are writting in English we just choose the typeface that were built for Latin characters, the situation you said only happens when writting in Chinese but there are just a little bit of Latin characters in the whole thing, and I think the weird Latin characters are just from some old typefaces like 宋体 and 楷体 The real situation I faced is when the whole article is in English, but there are some Chinese or Japenese characters, bacause Latin typefaces like Arial dosen't supports there characters, it will be replaced with a weird typeface just like what happend when writting Latin characters in 宋体 😂I need to replace those specific words with another typeface that supports that fits in. But yeah I cannot blame it, since Han Zi (include Japenese and Korean Kanzi) typefaces is a ENORMOUS work cuz each and every character is it's own thing (as can be seen in unicode, each character has its own code, it's near 100,000 codes for just Han Zi, and that database still haven't include all of it), at the point that most Chinese typeface also dosen't support all of it (the characters that are not supported are characters that are overly rarely used that 99% Chinese cannot even pronounce it, just like the 鹓 in my name lol (maybe we should make a game about pronouncing the rarely used Han Zi, that's definitely 99% people cannot pass😂😂😂)) Actually the work isn't "that heavy" as you though, a lot of Han Zi are combined by parts like stacking logo pieces, something like "pine+apple=pineapple"，“氵(water)+由(providing the pronounce)=油(oil)”, "钅(gold)+由(providing pronounce agian)=铀(Uranium)", "鼠(mouse)+由(yes, pronounce again)=鼬(Mustelidae). But still, the "parts" are still freakingly a lot so it's still HEAVY

[@MedlifeCrisis]

So fascinating. I would love you to explore the ethnic stereotype in fonts you hinted at near the start, if you want! Was really interesting hearing the backstory to chop suey font and some basics of Chinese writing. My experience of this is the faux Hindi you showed. I do not read Hindi naturally (ie slowly and deliberately - Bengali (mother tongue) looks different, without that horizontal line that gives the fake & real Hindi its characteristic look), so I just see the English words easily. But as a kid I bought an album by a British Indian artist and was confused why my uncle was just staring at the cover for ages trying to figure out what it meant. He was a native Hindi speaker and was stumped by this weird Hindi script. So it did what you often talk about, it failed its most basic requirement, to be legible.

[@LuisCarlos-el7cu]

I never expected to see you here! I'm glad you have an appreciation for graphic design too!

[@genethemachine7169]

I'd love to see a series on the "faux-ethnic" fonts. This video really peaked my interest!

[@newshefan]

Being a subscriber to medlife is probably one of the reasons KZbin recommended this video to me lol

[@WereScrib]

The cyrillic font is the one that really gets me tbh. Since every single faux cyrilic is a different level of faux cyrillic. Some of them are like 'Oh backwards Rs and some letters in a distinctly cyrilic style' but others are like, seemingly random letters substituted in a incomprehensible fashion. Like, if you're just making your R's Yas (The backwrds R is a ''ya' sound) its easy enough. But sometimes you see nearly every letter substituted, including ones that are identical to their english counterparts. I.E. Using a Д instead of an A, when the cyrillic A... is an A. Its not accented, its like a insane mishmash until nothing makes sense, often removing all latin characters and substituting various forms of cyrillic characters into an incoherent mess. I'm not sure when this started either, as the historical 'look its Russian' fonts usually just made your R's Яs and your W's Шs, but nothing as frankly bizarre as the modern ones.

[@mojobear93]

I'd also like to learn more about faux-ethnic fonts. It would be so interesting to learn the history behind them.

[@DetergentBubbles2]

"When fighting for basic human rights, authentic cultural expression is a luxury." Such an eloquent and insightful analysis. I really appreciate the inclusion of Raven's perspective; so many creators don't realize that producing content about cultures you might not be familiar with can be a great chance to introduce and amplify otherwise marginalized voices. Off to read about TienMin Liao's work now!

[@nehcooahnait7827]

While recycling the same process of knowledge production in the same old Orientalist fashion

[@giokarp]

Assimilationist concessions

[@larshofler8298]

@@nehcooahnait7827 Exactly. I'm sick and tired of them recycling orientalist bs calling it cultural expression. I'd rather see full-western design without pretending to be something else.

[@theinternet1424]

Coming from a country that also has tons of weaponised diaspora in the West, all I hear is "You can be racist towards us, just change the regime already"

[@OwMeEd]

@@nehcooahnait7827 what does this even mean?

[@JacobGeller]

This has quickly become one of my favorite channels. Another great video!

[@kugelblitzingularity304]

hello, the god of video essays, nice to see you here

[@genderfr3ak]

Agreed 😄

[@MixMeMcGee]

Absolutely. This is such great work

[@andyzhang7890]

great to see you here Jacob

[@ladylad2763]

Makes sense to see you here

[@NotJustBikes]

This was a great video! Despite me being a _huge_ font nerd, and knowing how to read and write 漢字, I never really thought about the "Chop Suey" font. It's a really interesting history. It's also great to see authentic Chinese (actually Taiwanese) restaurants like Din Tai Fung coming to North America and not trying to anglicize their name. One of the few things I miss about living in Toronto are the Asian restaurants which cater to an Asian population and serve real food from their regions. This can only happen if there are enough people from that region to know what the food is actually supposed to taste like, and to be big enough to sustain these restaurants. That being said, I also grew up in the whitest of white Canadian suburbia, so I sometimes get a craving for the "Chinese" food of my youth: chop suey with sweet and sour chicken balls and an egg roll. And for that I subconsciously seek out the chop suey font.

[@RayGwah]

Chicken balls are also a typical Chinese dish in Ireland, I'm surprised to hear it exists in Canada

[@RayGwah]

@Daniel Gallagher the world ain't ready for spicebags yet !

[@_MrSnrub]

NJB! You are an inspiration to many, glad to see you here!

[@sgtpepper91]

Taiwanese = more Chinese than China don't @ me

[@GrandDawggy]

@@RayGwah I'm from the north and only heard of spice bag within the last few years when I moved to Enniskillen, probably cuz it closer to the boarder. Was funny to hear it talked about like a local delicacy "ye have to try spice bag" I was like wtf is that drugs?

[@nothing4mepls973]

Thank you for not going super hard on ragging on Chinese American food. I know it's not "authentic", but these days no food is. Food transforms when it meets new places and people and ingredients. Sure, sugary chicken in cardboard isn't high class dining or made from scratch soul food, but sometimes it's the only thing that will hit the spot for me.

[@equalityforever302]

At least most of the stuff were invented by actual immigrants, so it has that going for it at least.

[@FelipeJaquez]

Technically the most authentic food is raw meat but nobody is gonna eat that.

[@TheYeetedMeat]

@@FelipeJaquez smoked meat is much more authentic, and anyone can do it. Just dangle some raw meat above a fire so the smoke makes it edible.

[@adenkyramud5005]

@@TheYeetedMeat but if you use wood from a tree that didn't exist in your area back in those days, is it still authentic? 🤔

[@TheYeetedMeat]

@@adenkyramud5005 who says use wood? Smoke your hands as you hold the meat and eat them too!

[@MultiMicals]

The part where you discussed how chinese writing system works and how its elements were implemented to these fonts was great and essential! Because at this point it clicked for me and i think I "got" the message. I really don't like slav-english fonts when they use Д instead of A when there's actually А in Cyrillic.

[@HamguyBacon]

It stands out and shows that its authentic slav or Russian rather than some bland drink.

[@MultiMicals]

@@HamguyBacon alright then, but there's a letter D in vodka as well. Why not use cyrillic Д instead?

[@HamguyBacon]

@@MultiMicals because its promoted to English readers.

[@yaboikungpowfuckfinger7697]

It’s actually funny because Vodka in Russian is Водка… So to Americanize it it would look better as Vодка since this swaps the Cyrillic B for V, which both have the same sound. Sadly it only works in very few cases. I’ll see Яussiа or Яцssiа because you can’t really Americanize Россия. Same thing with anything containing an И. И in Russian is ‘and’ and makes a long e sound. If I say Ио I’m saying ‘eeyo’. Which sounds stupid. That’s what makes the fake fonts that use real characters pretty idiotic is that it makes no sense once you pick it apart.

[@LuvzToLol21]

As a native Russian speaker, reading these fonts feels like my brain is short-circuiting. Like, the Latin and Cyrillic characters mix in my head and it takes me a moment to figure out what I'm reading.

[@theoderic_l]

As a Chinese and student of anthropology, I really appreciate the length you go to to embed the font in its historical, cultural, and socioeconomic contexts. Amazing video!

[@puzzLEGO]

I’m glad you covered the element of capitalism in it. Fonts and ‘the Chinese look’ tended to do better commercially and the development of the chop suey font attracted more customers. I don’t think it has that much of a racist element in it nowadays, this style and typography is more about American culture than Chinese culture.

[@dunnowy123]

Yeah, as a Chinese American, Ilook at it and see it as integral to Chinese American history, warts and all. Ive grown quite fond of it and I hope it doesn't go away

[@darcy6698]

i see your comments everywhere

[@DocPetron]

I was born in Hong Kong and immigrated at age 5. Perhaps my perspective is different because I learned the basic strokes in Chinese. I'm pretty much Americanized now and illiterate in Chinese. But I find the "chop suey" font racist, derogatory and deeply offensive. I understand why past generations accept and even capitalize on it and I want the history of it maintained, but I don't want it to be used ever again.

[@WereScrib]

@@dunnowy123 Honestly I assume it'll probably go away as newer Chinese migrants dislike it deeply, and frankly are likely to outpopulate and dominate the older culture of historical Chinese Americans. This happened with the pre-soviet Ukrainian Diaspora I'm part of, all of our cultural ideas and concepts that we held onto are having difficulty existing in the still-incoming crowd of post-soviets. Our language, fonts, cultural traditions etc are just kind of exterminated in the wave brought in. The anglicized 'Pepperivka' and kapusta-keilbasa give way to blin and vodka. Most of us migrated as peasants over a century ago, fleeing ethnic purges. Those now fled cultural collapse. There's little relation.

[@KCH55]

It also helps people who aren't as literate, bc you instantly look at the front before reading and know what type of food.

[@morgan0]

18:10 as a font nerd, i LOVE good looking multi-lingual fonts that have the same style for all the characters not just some fallback letters, i can’t tell what they say but they look cool and it’s awesome to see the same bits of design applied to a very different base form

[@emo6577]

Yet another thing about the world that I never thought to be curious about. This channel is wonderful for learning some things I never thought I would

[@AverytheCubanAmerican]

Actually, fortune cookies weren't born in the US. In fact they're not even Chinese related either. They were brought over by *Japanese* immigrants Originating in Edo-period Japan, cookies very similar to the modern fortune cookie were made called the 辻占煎餅/tsujiura senbei. They were made with miso and sesame, different than the modern ones. But like the modern ones, it had fortunes inside called tsujiura or omikuji. These cookies are still sold in Japan today. It switched to a Chinese-American staple during WWII because of Japanese internment

[@Username-le4eq]

Ohh make sense

[@share_accidental]

no wonder as a chinese (but i’m from singapore) i never knew about fortune cookies until i watched american movies & tv shows

[@AnnaMorimoto]

You can still get them in Japan, but only in specific regions. It is no where near as popular here as it is in the US.

[@kevintrang6447]

>Edo-period Of course

[@Jakepearl13]

Do they still make it with miso and sesame?

[@weiyin8046]

This video was amazing! To me that font has a lot of baggage, but its also deeply nostalgic. I cant speak on America, but in Australia it feels like all the most authentic restaurants were the grimy back alley places with the kitschy fonts, so for me it feel less divorced from Chinese culture than perhaps it is in America, if that makes sense. I remember staring at those giant tanks of lobsters as a kid, and the chop suey font is part of that 'genre' of memory for me lol. Thank you for the video, it was so interesting and gave me a lot to think about! Happy lunar new year!

[@Sanguivore]

Oh, that’s definitely how it is in my area of America! The most authentic places in my region are exactly as you describe.

[@lemonstrangler]

wdym a lot of baggage? im also in australia

[@weiyin8046]

@@lemonstrangler Personally it also conjures a lot of bad associations/memories of stuff like that stupid gong sound effect, that oriental riff, people making fun of Chinese accents or appearances, yellow peril, that sort of thing. Like Linus says in the video, its not necessarily that it is wholly racist in itself, just that it comes with and is a part of a larger racist history.

[@lemonstrangler]

@@weiyin8046 oh thats true

[@weiyin8046]

@@mason4354 LOL no it's not like when I read about the White Australia Policy the oriental riff starts playing in my head, I guess it's similar to word association? It's really hard to explain in words. Like how sewing, thread, sewing machine, thimble, stitches, spindle, darning, embroidery are all different things but are in the same scope. Its the best way I can describe it, sorry! I'm not a sociologist so I don't have the jargon, but I find the study interesting :)

[@sisuka6505]

My family moved from Europe to Beijing when I was a kid, and I remember noticing fortune cookies, takeout boxes, and dishes that were depicted as distinctly Chinese in American culture, but were nowhere to be found in the country I lived in for four years. But I don't think the font had caught my eye like that in the past, despite falling in the same category. So thanks for this thoughtful and informative video.

[@DLZ2000]

My parents owned and managed a Chinese restaurant from 1980-1996 in West Springfield, MA, so I definitely have a relationship with this font. It was just sort of there, as a kid. I think I even used the font. I didn't think about it too much until I was an adult. I'm glad to see things changing, though.

[@FritzMonorail]

@@valentingartner3793 did you reply to the wrong comment or something? Because op didn't seem particularly upset.

[@ZiddersRooFurry]

@@valentingartner3793 What is your issue?

[@CultureDTCTV]

Great video. As a Hongkonger who had just left my home to live in the USA last month, this video explained a lot of confusing fonts and stereotypes restaurants here have

[@shonenbag6478]

Hell yeah! I concur! Btw the stuff you make is amazing!

[@hotelmario510]

I have never seen a more empathetic, patient, in-depth and nuanced exploration of a fraught topic. It actually made me stop and think about how my own personal biases might affect how I see Chinese people and their culture, and how I might slip into prejudices and caricatures without even thinking about it. Honestly, this is one of the most valuable things I've ever watched. Thank you.

[@Quesbe]

I think that multi-script fonts are very interesting, they are showing that you can make multiple scripts blend together without having to use cliché (and often just bad) faux-fonts. I'm amazed at how well some designer can "translate" a font to another script while keeping the same visual language, it is really some beautiful work.

[@FlameRat_YehLon]

And just for how important it is, one unexpected example is, Doom Eternal, a game that sets in a hellish theme, would use what's considered a 综艺体 (reality show title font) in its Chinese localization, probably because they want something more stylish yet still look like 黑体 (black type, sans-serif equivelent for Chinese) to match the stylish font the original English text uses. Although it might look nothing wrong to non-Chinese readers, such font is actually considered "cute" in Chinese for its association with cute-sie reality shows and thus it became kinda a meme.

[@jayeisenhardt1337]

@@FlameRat_YehLon "actually considered "cute" in Chinese for its association with cute-sie reality shows and thus it became kinda a meme." Well Doom X Animal Crossing is a thing so it works. I wonder did that Isabelle and Doomguy meme spawn from the Chinese cute-sie meme?

[@phillbosque2183]

Chop Suey font to me seems synonymous of like 1950s to 1970s old school take-out. Today it seems tacky or cheesy but it's very effective at conveying exactly what it is and what you could expect- something in Chinese style or mimicking something with Chinese/Oriental origins. Although I'm sure many have weaponized it to mock, I think it should be retained as a tool of nostalgia, older Chinese-American culture which brings back positive memories of how Chinese-American businesses flourished and under this flagship font.

[@unvergebeneid]

2:28 I have to say, most of the faux ethnic fonts shown do a really good job of capturing the look of the writing they're trying to mimick while staying legible. The chop suey letters fall off in comparison. I wonder if one couldn't do a better job, despite the problems with circles in the Latin alphabet.

[@varana]

That legibility applies in full only to readers who can't read the original script, in my experience. In some cases it's mostly fine (faux Greek is often Latinised enough that you don't really confuse the two), in others it makes reading quite a bit harder. Faux Cyrillic is particularly bad at this - it often uses actual Cyrillic characters (instead of "cyrillicised" Latin ones), like the Д in the video. And I always take a moment longer to parse the characters as Latin ones.

[@unvergebeneid]

@@varana true, I was mainly thinking about the ones towards the right of the spectrum and the ones shown afterwards. I can see how using Σ as E, Д as A or א as X could be very confusing.

[@unvergebeneid]

@@varana BTW, as a native German speaker, I sometimes see a related curiosity, when people not familiar with the German script use β or B instead of ß. Not as a font choice but as a character choice. Very confusing and hard to read.

[@rosly_yt]

It wouldn't be that hard. just replace all the circles with squares, and make it a smallcaps font, since Chinese doesn't have capital or lower case letters. For example, O can be played by 口, a Chinese character that means mouth. I study Japanese, not Chinese, so there's things I take for granted, like the character 〇 (circle, pronounced maru). 〇 is used to mean either blank space, or to write years, 二〇〇四 as 2004, for example. It'd be best to ask someone actually fluent in both languages.

[@hirokokueh3541]

imo the issue is, the designer didn't know how Chinese calligraphy work at all, there's no way to actually write the font with Chinese writing tools. some modern designs like Harukaze and Ninja Strike seems good enough, they considered the direction of the strokes.

[@therealCrazyJake]

Mickey Rooney, over the years, stated many times, for the record, that he heavily regretted that role in Breakfast at Tiffany’s, calling it a stain on his acting career that he rather would not have done, if he had his way. From my understanding, he didn’t actually want to take on the role and would have preferred the studio hire an actual Japanese actor to play the part (in a way less stereotypical way, of course), but he was under a contract and wasn’t allowed to back out of the project (nor did the studio care, I’m sure, about the offensive caricature being so problematic). Whether he was strong armed into the role or not, hopefully it is comforting to know that in the following years, he grew from the mistake and did become more reverent of other people and their cultures. I know that was only a brief mention in the video, but it just seemed relevant as an example of learning from history’s mistakes and learning to do better with these things. Didn’t mean to type a whole paragraph, sorry. 😅

[@roboluigi]

Don’t apologize for sharing information in detail that is so interesting!

[@jeff__w]

“… and would have preferred the studio hire an actual Chinese actor to play the part (in a way less stereotypical way, of course)…” The character, Mr Yunioshi, was supposed to be Japanese so why would Rooney have preferred someone Chinese? _EDIT:_ I appreciate the edit of the comment. ☺️👍

[@therealCrazyJake]

@@jeff__w sorry, that was my mistake, I’ll fix it.

[@jeff__w]

@@therealCrazyJake Oh, great. 👍🏻 Sorry, I didn't see your reply till just now. 😳

[@therealCrazyJake]

@@jeff__w you’re good, mate. KZbin doesn’t notify me about replies, so I’m just now seeing your reply. Hope you are having a blessed day. 🙂

[@richarduy]

I really love how you framed the font not only in historical and societal context but also in post modernist usages. Plus you linked to many resources to learn more about specific trains of thought during the video. It kept the narrative focused but easily explorable 👑 Content creator king shit, my dude

[@CSDragon]

I definitely agree that the chop sui font is disappearing, nowadays you see much more native lettering to distinguish what kind of food is there. You don't see "Sushi Bar" in chop sui, you see "Sushi Bar" in a neutral font followed by お寿司", or "고기구이 Barbecue" In the bigger, more diverse cities, the general american is generally aware of the difference between a Chinese letter and a Korean one nowdays Edit: 15:51 Ah, that's exactly what I meant there. Chinese characters front and center, then BBQ in english for us.

[@straydotmp4]

shoutout to this year-old video for single-handedly making me fall in love with graphic design all over again

[@robbert777]

Seriously, this is *so* good, this could be a Netflix series. Learned so much in 20 minutes!

[@khazermashkes2316]

This wasn’t the main point of the video, but I enjoyed learning about the history of US Chinatown architecture

[@DaveHill47]

I seem to recall, from past research into the topic, that the "theme park" tourist-drawing architecture for San Francisco's Chinatown, while crafted by non-Chinese talent (at a guess because Chinese weren't allowed to be registered as architects) was sought *by the community* during the rebuilding, to counter concerted efforts post-quake to forcibly relocate the Chinese out of the very central real estate they were on.

[@callmeperch]

Digging your new style! This is a great topic and you cover every great little detail including things I would never have considered like architecture and brush strokes. I think you handled these topics exceptionally sensitively and educationally. Thanks for the great video!

[@warpvector]

There's a bit in Kill Bill where a Japanese character write's Bill's name in English but with his normal, Japanese handwriting - it's very noticeable when he dots the I - and I've always wondered why that isn't a font. Latin Alphabet but in a natural Asian "handwriting" style.

[@OdaKa]

Calls into question how natural that writing style was in the fictional movie, doesn't it? Do Japanese people actually naturally write in such a "Japanese handwriting" style when writing English letters? Or did they just do it in the movie because it looks cool?

[@EricChien95]

The weird thing is that you take a movie as the basis for how a japanese person normally write in english.

[@warpvector]

@@EricChien95 I never said that.

[@6foottallAardvark]

@@EricChien95 he's not saying that - he's raising an interesting question about how native Japanese speakers write in English, and whether their handwriting has identifiable traits. And if so, how we can use that to design culturally-authentic Latin fonts.

[@ashbolollies3982]

I get what you’re saying, I work with a few ladies from Korea and when I look at their handwriting you can tell that they’re used to certain strokes and it reflects. Just like when I went to learn Japanese in highschool, my hiragana looked like crap at first because I was writing with my english tendencies and I totally neglected to consider the stroke order, lol.

[@MrAidanLising]

I love your videos. This channel is the Miranda Priestly "Sweater Monlogue" of graphic design and typography. Whenever I try to explain to people why graphic design is important, I point them to your channel. Thank you for the great stuff!

[@Geckokidthepaladin]

Happy Lunar New Year! Having moved to the UK when I was 18 those stereotypes you mentioned were extremely jarring, and whenever I saw Hollywood movies depicting China with the takeaway boxes I was like... what on earth were they?! PS TienMin Liao's fonts are GORGEOUS :O

[@andrewharrisonway110]

Such an awesome video! I love how empathetically you approached this topic. Also, those typefaces by TienMin Liao at 18:09 are so stunningly stylish.

[@WryAun]

I appreciate how sensitively you handled this! Quality video!

[@LinusBoman]

Happy Lunar New Year! 🐅 (Edit) 📝 Also, see below some footnotes and clarification: 1. Stoke order in Hànzì vs Latin - this was a necessary simplification for the context of the video - since it is an entire rabbit hole unto itself. Stroke order varies by region across CJK countries. It has more visible effect on cursive and semi-cursive calligraphy than the standard form shown in this example. It also goes beyond the visual, some digital input methods (handwriting recognition) are reliant on stroke order as part of how gestures are interpreted. The Latin alphabet has conventions which are taught to children in school, but generally it has almost no bearing on the function of writing. Also, different calligraphic styles may use quite different strokes to create the same shapes (compare an lowercase "s" which may be made in 1 stroke in ballpoint printing, 2 in cursive, or 3, 4 or 5 strokes in blackletter calligraphy using a broad-edge nib). There is no "official" stroke order in the same meaningful sense, because our alphabet is more focused on the resulting shapes than method of production. 2. Din Tai Fung is romanised, but not using Mainland pinyin (since Din Tai Fung is from Taiwan). There are debates in the comments about what system is used (which I won't Wade-Giles into)! 3. The examples shown of dual-script logos from 18:20 are necessarily TienMin Liao's wortk. I should have added a note to say these are examples drawn from multiple sources to illustrate the increasing trend and need for multi-lingual branding.

[@theprofessor4759]

祝你新年快乐!

[@phandanglam9923]

Thanks

[@mattybrunolucaszeneresalas9072]

Lies lol

[@sir_coma60]

新年快乐~

[@angelo.strand]

great video as always

[@ReubenCornell]

I am HERE for content like this. Totally underrated channel.

[@Ariolander]

I used to do cleaning and typesetting for fan translations "scanlations" of Japanese manga. Within the community we passed around entire folders of faux foreign, vaguely "asian" fonts, depending on which group I typeset for each would have their preferred or standard set of fonts and as a fan I began associating specific fonts with specific groups. I just wanted to share this anecdote with you because this video reminded me of my overly large collection of fake-"asian" fonts.

[@iron_x2]

thank u for ur service

[@beyondtheradio]

Thanks for your service! I read these scans SO MUCH growing up.

[@twincast2005]

🫡 I remember the days of having quick scanlations followed by cleaned-up ones ½~2 weeks later.

[@JordanHowellMusic]

Yo the painting at 9:04 is amazing!!! So cool.! Also- great video my man. You’re making me a fan of typography or rather bringing out the designer I’ve always kind of felt I had in my mind. Thanks!

[@AdrianHereToHelp]

What an incredibly insightful and interesting video; I can't believe I never thought to question these fonts! I feel kind of bad that "Damn I want some Chinese food now" is as high as it is on my takeaways from this video (no pun intended).

[@psuburbs]

clicked for some good graphic design and history and had my foodie brain satisfied as well. i always appreciate a good anthony bourdain shoutout. as someone who grew up watching no reservations and has now as an adult read kitchen confidential, his influence on the desires of young food enjoyers is so clear, even among people who never watched his shows or read his work. his influence is undeniable. i loved this whole video and im sending it to my graphic designer mom immediately.

[@g0d5m15t4k3]

I super appreciate the comparison of chop suey : font :: fake accent : language That really helped me to better understand and contextualize how it functions. I think typography is cool as heck and really enjoy how informative your channel is. I super extra like this episode because you brought someone in with incredibly relevant professional experiences on this subject. Thank you for this video!

[@andrewhunt3385]

linus!! thank you for hitting so many points in this video! really varied & educational. you gave me tons of complex thoughts to chew on. the latter half about Chinese-American culture's succession into modernity really tied the whole thing together for me. genuinely one of the best mini-docs ive seen on youtube.

[@kukuandkookie]

This video was lovely! I appreciated the amount of detail and care you clearly put into it, as can be seen from the clear and easy to understand editing, the occasions you admitted certain things were outside the scope of this video while still directing people to more resources in the description, and all the information that is already jam-packed inside here. But what I really appreciated was the amount of respect you showed in discussing the font's history and Chinese culture-it actually brought a tear to my eye, as a Canadian-born-Chinese. It felt validating and exciting, to hear about the way young American-Chinese restaurant owners are now expressing themselves in a different way from the Chinese restaurants of the past, with a stronger focus on hybridity and authenticity. It was just really nice. Great work on the video, and happy Lunar New Year! Wishing you luck in the year of the tiger~

[@captweirdbeard]

"We shouldn't erase history, but neither should we repeat it." Beautifully said.

[@dariusvanriemsdijk2778]

Wow Linus, I have been enthusiastically watching all your content for a few months now but this is definitely my favourite video so far! I think it is very important that designers and audiences become aware of the complex and problematic workings behind some of the designs, tools or products considered 'normal' or accepted in society. I could get angry or frustrated about racist/sexist/queerphobic undertones in design and communication all day, but your well-researched and well presented videos just do a so much better job at educating. Your channel is an inspiration!

[@SuperKawaiiCupcakes]

Your transition slides and music choice are beautiful, and your script-reading feels really natural. I commend your research! Bringing in experts and admitting when you are unable to provide full context goes a long way for me. I highly enjoyed this video!!

[@robinthebobin6537]

Wow, just wow, what a well made video! I expected to learn about a font, but I ended up learning a whole lot about Chinese history and how racism and stereotypes shaped our idea of Chinese culture and all of the things we have now, as well as learning some incredibly interesting things about how visual patterns and human perception of fonts works. Its incredibly sad how racial stereotypes can influence how a society of people views literal shapes over time, however it is also incredibly interesting. This video is incredibly well researched (ironically more so than a lot of political videos), and treats the material it covers with a lot of respect!

[@deluxedoorman]

Coming from someone who never really had much interest in the subject matter your videos cover prior to finding your channel - you make the subject a really fascinating one and tell a great story. Love it.

[@ohheycrystalhey]

this was an EXTREMELY good video! thank you so much for doing justice to the history and careful script writing and objective opinion. one type of restaurant that was bypassed a bit in this video (understandably given the script arc) is the Peter/Cecelia Chang style restaurant that moved Chinese food away from fast food and more towards higher class. with the plush velvet seats around huge circle tables. I would be very interested to hear about the fonts in the middle of that spectrum of Latin - Asian fonts! I have seen fonts imitating Arabic script in the past as well, but not sure if there's a deeper history behind it

[@BossSauce_47]

I really like the way this video shifts to a positive tone. Unafraid to report on negative history but proud to show the future. When the main villains of history are fear, greed, shame, spite, and misinformation, I appreciate when we can move forward as a unified population, without perpetuating the easy, cheap, and painfully human behaviors that divided and destroyed the past. Well done.

[@AsherBC]

Such a great video Linus - I love how very articulate you are while accompanying your explanations with such crisp imagery and design.

[@6foottallAardvark]

This is such a well-made video. Nearing the end, I started to wonder how we can convey Chinese cultural anesthetics through western-style fonts, and right on cue you brought up TienMin Liao's beautiful work. There really is unlimited potential in good design.

[@AdventureArchives]

Great video. It has me thinking a lot about the unique blend of culture that a lot of Asian Americans experience, and are learning to take ownership of and express in a genuine way.

[@laurabowles]

I’m so glad this popped up in my recommended, and even more that I decided to click on it. This was so thoughtfully researched and presented, and I learned more than I expected to. Thank you!

[@jmanninja]

Wow Linus, this was so good! Incredible work as always, keep it up! Me and all my designer friends love these videos lol

[@kengtengg]

Absolutely blown away by the amount of research gone into this and how well presented all the ideas were. I found this channel from Phil Edwards and this was one of the easiest subscribes I've ever had. Thank you for putting out such high quality content!

[@dkranda]

The quality of these videos is through the roof. Thanks Linus!

[@yangto996]

I am so glad this came up in my recommendation!! the way you structured this video was engaging, informative, and covers each aspect in a really considered manner. Linus, you have yourself a new loyal subscriber.

[@gutobernardo7457]

Came for a lesson in bad type choices and left with a greater appreciation for cultures and history ❤️

[@childbirthct]

How cool! I wish we had discussed any of this in my graphic design classes in the 90's! Subscribed now and looking forward to watching more of your work and learning more about this topic. I LOVE the visual = accent. Very helpful context for me. Thank you

[@andyzhang7890]

Amazing video. Loved the analysis, as well as Raven’s beautiful Chinese-compatible fonts

[@Calwah]

So glad I found this channel. As a graphic designer myself, this content is amazing

[@MADGuy248]

So happy to see practitioners of arts and design field to tell its history with attention to surrounding factors and environments. Major discourse taught in academic art and design courses often focus (too much, I’d argue) in the aesthetic development. It saddens me as an art historian for how surrounding factors like social, political, economic and cultural circumstances would influence our aesthetic products and preferences. Thanks for making this informative video, and especially doing so as you give agency to the diasporic culture you’re talking about. Looking forward to more content from you.

[@xlrdrgz]

would love an episode more about fonts related to race and stereotypes, great vid!

[@derdurstbursch]

Such a great blend of topics ❤️

[@yaronimus1]

One of your best videos Linus. As you have shown, there are multiple examples of "etnic" or stereotyped fonts. One of them is faux hebrew which was used in antisemitic posters, as well as signage for jewish businesses in the first half of the 20th century. Btw, as a native hebrew reader, reading faux hebrew latin is really challenging, because my mind has trouble interpreting the letters. I think that as a designer i wouldn't use fonts that make people uneasy, bexause fonts contain memories of social context. (By the way, i dont feel uneasy with faux hebrew, it's just a far away thing that doesn't really relate to the day to day lives in israel). However as an artist i wouldn't want something to be "off limits". Just like i can still enjoy the beauty of fonts created by german people from the nazi era. Its not off limit to me, even though it might have a bad historical context. I might even suggest that chop suey letters may be further developed in some way we cant forsee, maybe as a student project, because these letters still contain some form of quality or wisdom.

[@oO_ox_O]

Interesting that you brought up the Nazi era, because around that era a fake blackletter font became popular (fraktur grotesk).

[@yaronimus1]

@@oO_ox_O can you give me some examples please?

[@kirbyculp3449]

Some of the Mecedes-Benz posters deserve careful study.

[@Yesnomu]

This was really interesting, I was curious where the heck that font came from! Thanks for the video and for broadening my perspective.

[@andrew_ford]

Hi Linus, great video and very informative. I did notice one little mistake at @15.58 which is probably quite important considering the subject matter of type and how languages that don't use Roman characters are presented in English speaking contexts. The romanisation system used for the sign of 鼎泰豐, Din Tai Fung, is not Hanyu Pinyin but is in fact the Wade-Giles romanisation system. The latter system was widely phased out in China in 1958 but is still used in Taiwan today for place names and other proper nouns, such as the fab restaurant chain, Din Tai Fung. Great Xiao Long Bao there by the way. 祝大家新年快樂。

[@lightstarangel]

Would love to see more of this type of video - the marriage of cultural history, usage & design is so fascinating to me!

[@iwritesometimes]

another stellar video. fantastic research and poignant storytelling. thanks so much to you and your contributors for all your hard work on this!

[@BackseatYT]

Next level stuff here Linus! Really enjoyed this!

[@chongjunxiang3002]

I once tried to build my own chop suey font using caligraphy with actual chinese lettering principle. Always thought something missing when looking at them. Until I know a design need nuance in order to solidify. A random write for fun does not compare with struggle of American Chinese looking for livelihood using that font.

[@Soundole]

I've only watched a few of your videos so far, but I've been really impressed by the depth of your research and your illustrative presentation! Thanks for sharing this with us!

[@bayunugroho9553]

This is a very insightful video, Linus. Thank you for educating me in a topic that I had never thought I'd be interested in. Happy Lunar New Year!

[@KnitterX]

What baffles me about that font is that the Chinese Hànzì actually contain rectangles if the characters have evolved from symbols that contain circles. Because the rectangle was the next best way to draw a circle when the writing evolved to separate, straight strokes. For example in the characters 口 (mouth; opening) or 日 (sun; day). So in a sense, rectangles are literally how circular shapes are formed in the Chinese writing system. Why not just use those rectangles instead of oddly rotated and bent strokes in letters like O or B? Maybe it didn't look very well or maybe it wasn't recognized is typically Chinese but I have a feeling that the creators of the font were simple not really familiar with the Chinese language.

[@lzh4950]

Trivia: the Chinese character for 'old' (旧 Jiù) is formed by putting the number '1' in front of the character '日' ('day' in Chinese), to convey that the item you're referring to is already 1 day old

[@cyberpunkspike]

By contrast the video's creator thinks it's OK to disparage an aesthetic that has helped to build middle class Chinese families, to imply that they are wrong for finding a way to invoke their people's culture anywhere in the west to a western audience.

[@kaitlyn__L]

@@cyberpunkspike kinda sounds like you clicked the title, read the comments, but didn't watch the actual video. Like, especially go and listen to what the interviewee says halfway through. (Actually, since you left this comment a bunch of times on the video, I'll just transcribe it:) "I learned how these fonts helped Chinese immigrants and their businesses thrive. It's a part of the trubulent, but triumphant history of Chinese immigrants in the United States. They will never appeal to me personally, but I can appreciate their history as a product of their unique environment." Do you consider that to be genuinely disparaging? I would call that a very level-headed and respectful assessment. (Especially given the video demonstrated it was used in wartime propaganda posters before being adopted by hardworking immigrant families, much as simultaneously occurred with faux-Hebrew fonts.)

[@BenMclean007]

This is a great video! I think you succeeded in conveying the subtlety of your point in a very non-judgemental tone

[@jude1293]

Thanks for putting in chapters and subtitles!! Auto captions can be hit and miss and it's great to watch a channel who puts their own subs on videos!

[@인절미채널]

Amazing content. The 3rd type of dining experiences designed by 2~3rd gen immigrants that are inherent yet not stereotypical really gives some insight into the subcultural design trends that will coexist with the 'mainstream'. Two of which of course are not exclusive from each other. Thank you for some amazing Chinese food for thought.

[@kaitlyn__L]

I especially love what I've seen of the western fusion restaurants in China, Japan and Korea. There's some different ideas of what makes food "western" than we have here, but that's part of what's so fun about it. Getting to look at familiar foods through a totally new lens. For instance, bell peppers show up in Japan as emblematic of "Italian" (which itself is really just Nepalese) food, even in dishes that we'd never expect to see them (like a simple bolognese sauce). And the restauranteurs developed cooking tricks to make spaghetti less "slimy" and more akin to ramen, for a more familiar mouthfeel (basically, add some alkaline to the cooking water!). I also like the Western burger places that I've seen bits of in the Pearl River Delta, which serve burgers that are fully familiar in form... but have a ton of western-veg toppings that you'd associate more with a casserole or stew!

[@jenniferbates2811]

Thank You, great video. I'm definitely going to explore more of the other videos that you suggested.

[@colinmcd94]

if I ever saw someone write the horizontal bars of an "E" first, I would never speak to them again

[@LinusBoman]

Haha, actually I write the capital E - "top crossbar, right to left, flowing down to stem, then middle and bottom crossbar left to right" but that was too confusing for the script. The examples were less literal and more figurative for clarity, but point taken. 😂

[@theviper1999uk]

This video is so nuanced and professionally made, it's easy to overlook the time it must have taken. Such great stuff!!!

[@LupusIsHere]

this video is really interesting to me as a (northern) brit. ive never had chop suey because chinese restaurants here have never sold it. ive very rarely even seen this font either, only in movies and tv shows. northern britain is arguably less diverse than the south which would make you think that chinese restaurants here would want to appeal more to the majority but its quite the opposite. usually people eating at chinese restaurants (not incl takeaways) are just chinese people because the community here is very close knit. anyways, very interesting video!!

[@Tsweezey90]

The amount of care and consideration put into this video and script is heartwarming

[@valmarsiglia]

I'm sorry, but you're leaving out a big part of the history of San Francisco's Chinatown. You name the architect and engineer and imply strongly that they arbitrarily imposed this orientalist theme-park on the neighborhood without mentioning the Chinese-American businessmen (most prominently Look Tin Eli) who hired them and instructed them on how to make the buildings look: it was really Look Tin Eli's vision, not that of Ross and Burgen. Much of the funding was provided in loans from business interests in Canton and Hong Kong, so this was not some one-sided American project; it was always international in scope. The new architecture was designed to make the neighborhood attractive to Westerners because at the time, there was lots of pressure on the city government to relocate the Chinese community far away to the far-less desirable Hunter's Point or even down to Daly City. There were other factors at work that prevented the relocation, such as pressure from the Chinese government and a shift in public opinion towards Chinese immigrants as more and more businesses became reliant on trade with China, but rebuilding Chinatown in its present form was very much the brainchild of Chinese-American and Chinese entrepreneurs who were trying to save the neighborhood, and I think they deserve much praise for it.

[@idiotluggage]

Very interesting. I enjoy seeing how things have evolved. Thank you for sharing this.

[@cozdod019]

Cool video really like how you tie up the parts and a bit of history lesson as well!

[@swerdnagk611]

This video was incredible. Eloquent, thoughtful, well-researched, well-produced, and informative!

[@max2themax]

I like to imagine in a parallel universe chinese people would associate a comic sans type font with americans.

[@potkettle]

Well this was fantastic, thank you algorithm for plonking it in my feed. The editing and delivery make it engaging and digestible. Instant subscribe.

[@ChadBarnier]

Linus, I’ve been a big fan for a while and have to say you’ve totally outdone yourself with this video! The content, the respect of history and culture, the inclusion of other voices, not to mention the outstanding motion graphics, referencing to further reading, and content warnings. It’s so great to see someone talk so openly about things they love and not try to evade the complexities of their history but rather acknowledge and reckon with it. This is TOP TIER content that channels with larger subs and budgets should be watching for inspiration. Truly inspired by what you do, I wish I could be a fly on the wall while you write and research. I hope you’re proud of the content you’re producing. Keep up the incredible work!

[@tobiaslever3763]

This was the most interesting video I’ve seen on design on KZbin in a long long time - extremely well put together and thought provoking

[@luisquintero2992]

Que buen video! Soy de Venezuela y alli estudie Diseño Industrial y luego hice un Master en Diseño Gráfico tambien y siempre me ha fascinado el arte del Lettering (desde que tuve mi primera Apple MacIntosh en 1984). Es increible la historia que puede contar una tipografía, por eso mr parecio interesantísimo tu video. Saludos desde Orlando FL 🇺🇲

[@Kirmo13]

That was one of the best video essays I've seen in a long while! Keep it up :D

[@michellewu6689]

I remember when I first saw this font as an elementary schooler, as a kid who was born in the US but whose first language was Mandarin, this font looked so foreign to me. Calligraphy is elegant and beautiful, and often the idea is to convey an image in as few strokes as possible (at least in calligraphy drawing). In contrast, the chop suey font required far more strokes to say a single message, which is why it didn’t feel right

[@MissPoplarLeaf]

This is such an excellent take on "ethnic" fonts! Thank you for taking apart the question "can a font be racist?" I often see that type of question oversimplified and strawmanned, so your nuanced approach was really refreshing. Also, since you mentioned it, Din Tai Fung technically originated from Taiwan! I know it falls into the category of Chinese restaurants because the cuisine is more or less "Chinese", but just wanted to make sure that distinction in origin is clear, especially since we're talking about marginalization and erasure of cultures. Still an excellent video, and I'm subscribing :)

[@hannahmayo6582]

So informative! As a graphic designer this literally gave me the understanding to be even more aware of type choice than I already am, because of the possibility of creating something unintentionally offensive. Typography is so powerful, thank you so much for sharing!

[@effyiew7318]

Lol but it's not offensive.

[@BeantownMrs]

Not sure how YT put this in my recommended, but I am so happy it did. This was a really interesting video!

[@sarcosmic6982]

This is a fantastic and thoughtful video. Thanks for the insight and history lesson! I’m Vietnamese-American, so I’m used to getting sorta lumped into the “Chinese” stereotypes by people, and we do share some dishes and culture thanks to Vietnam getting taken over by China for a long time, as well as Asian grocery stores/restaurants taking popular items from each other and serving it all on the same menu… meaning the fonts and Americanized dishes have long haunted me, despite not actually being Chinese. Idk where I’m going with this when I could’ve just said “this resonates with me personally,” but eh. Thanks for the vid and introducing me to a neat authentic font maker, I’ll have to study her fonts :)

[@AQuietNight]

Her fonts reminded me of the Chop Suey font.

[@BrooksMoses]

Personally, I appreciate the explanation of _why_ this resonates with you personally, for what that's worth.

[@creamyhummus]

What a beautiful analysis of a topic I hadn't even considered before as an American. Thanks for taking up a slot in my feed.

[@harveywang-v9r]

Great video, as someone that came from this background part of me wishes I went the Chinese restaurant route and was part of this new Chinese American trend but the work life balance of restaurants really just steered me away from it. What saddens me is the amount of people that are not willing to give American Chinese food a chance just because its not “authentic”.

[@ace.of.space.]

what a thorough and thoughtful video! the intersection of culture and graphic design is fascinating. Raven's information was really illuminating