The Apple IIgs Restoration - When Retrobrighting goes wrong

My adventures restoring an Apple IIgs - things don't always go the way you expect them to!
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[@ModernVintageGamer]

Lessons learned - i'll think hard about retrobrighting in future. What would you have done differently?

[@lnxmachine]

interesting that you and the 8-Bit Guy had similar issues and released videos about it the same day. I wonder if the age of the creme product could have an effect.

[@ModernVintageGamer]

i actually filmed this video about a month ago and only got around to releasing it. I sat on it for a while and wasnt sure if i should but i felt it was necessary to make sure im 100% honest with my viewers on my work..even if things go bad..i watched his video yesterday also and yeah he has the same issue as i do. We both use the same Creme i believe but this is the first time this has happened to me. Perhaps age is a factor. Thanks for watching!

[@TMS5100]

the yellow always returns. always. retrobright is not worth the effort.

[@RetroTechMuseum]

I think I have an idea to fix the Apple IIGS logo. My wife has a Vinyl cutting machine and if you can provide a scan or photo of the logo and the size, I think she can make one for you. You can also use the Vinyl to cover the original writing, paint the case, then peel off the vinyl leaving the original letters showing.

[@hadessuk]

Modern Vintage Gamer the "apply Vaseline" possible fix would have been good to try. I have a SNES that marbled here, so I'll test.

[@The8BitGuy]

I believe you are mistaken on the cause of the marbling. I have been doing some experiments and think I've determined the cause and possibly some better ways to avoid it.. stay tuned.

[@ModernVintageGamer]

looking forward to it!

[@heathharriss]

The 8-Bit Guy cough, cough the Osborne project.

[@eightbit1975]

I am definitely interested in your findings. I have avoided the whole retrobrite thing pretty much since its introduction as I have seen this ruin some great machines. It also restores some great machines obviously and I have seen some fantastic results, but until I am certain there is a surefire method in avoiding damage I am quite hesitant.

[@pauldeane8369]

David released a video about it however it was not a full on solution. I had this happen to me recently. I had great success with my first few Retro bright projects but my most recent one turned out like this. I bought the creme in March. Could it go bad that quickly?

[@bubba99009]

Hydrogen Peroxide is not stable and decomposes pretty quickly - much more quickly if it is exposed to light - which is why even the 3% stuff at the drug store comes in dark bottles. So it seems like a possibility.

[@agentjs09]

I just retrobrited my Apple IIgs yesterday. I did the submersion method, where I completely submerged it in a mix of hydrogen peroxide and oxyclean. I added plastic objects filled with water in order to displace some of the empty space in the container, so that I didn't have to use as much H2O2. The results were stunning. It turned out perfectly, it looks brand new with no unevenness or patching. Submersion works really well because of how even it comes out. If you retrobrite, I suggest you do it this way.

[@NemanjaVuj]

First 8-bit guy and now this! Retrobrighting is failing us everywhere! What shell we do... The future is bleak. :D

[@ModernVintageGamer]

lol !

[@cbmeeks]

I retrobrite all the time with great results. The "paint and seal" method of cling wrap is not a great way of doing it. The best (and only way, IMHO) is total submersion in liquid. Of course, that's hard for large pieces. But it's still the best way. Even if you have to invest $40 or so in peroxide. It's worth it for some equipment. Painting is also an option but as you can see, it makes the label look terrible. MVG would have been better off not retrobriting in the first place.

[@rickymac54321]

*shall not shell

[@DFX4509B]

Find something you could give a crap less about ruining and test different retr0brighting techniques on it ala 8-bit Guy.

[@GAIUSJAKE]

Use fluid salon solution. The carb cream stuff always fails.

[@RetroTech100]

Nice job. Thank you for showing your results honestly. Some people would not have shown their mistakes but its an education for us all so cheers for putting that out there. Found your channel recently and you are doing a great job. Ive just back into micros so im really enjoying your content.

[@ModernVintageGamer]

you are welcome. i wanted to show my mistakes and maybe sometimes its just better to clean things rather than retr0brighting

[@quiksr20]

Another great video, Havent retro brighted anything yet but its on my radar for some new vintage projects I want to do..

[@MsMadLemon]

Quite an informative video on retrobright! I'm plucking up the courage still, i've heard both good and bad.From it "turning the case more yellow than how it was originally" to this marbling effect, however success stories too. I have something to practice on first at least. Great video!

[@ModernVintageGamer]

yeah i still think its worth it because the results can be fantastic - just dont rush it like what i did here

[@Docdroz]

Funny, 8 bit guy just had a retro bright fail on his channel. Good video.

[@Vortagh]

MVG, you might ask around on model kit building forums. If there's ONE group of people on this planet, who know how to mask delicate things, before painting them, it'll be those guys! ;-)

[@seanmchughnt]

Sorry to see the retro-brighting didn't go to plan. I know the 8 bit guy is going through the same pain with an Osborne PC refurbishment. Thanks for putting this video up as there are a lot of people that are thinking of doing this to their old gear.

[@MrSEA-ok2ll]

You have always been very careful when working on hardware, so if you have retrobriting issues, anyone can have problems...will try this soon this summer.

[@ghostmopreal]

A Mini Cooper? I see you are a man of culture as well.

[@RobertBlow]

Don't beat yourself up. You tried, lessons learned. That's how we roll.. Great work on the upgrades.

[@JEMHull-gf9el]

A really great video. I love all things IIgs. Do you plan on featuring the IIgs in more videos? that would be really neat to see some of the other IIgs specific hardware and software. I used to use a IIgs in elementary school, and have loved them ever since. Currently I don't have a IIGs system anymore, but I hope to be getting one in the nest few months, I'm just waiting for the perfect one to pop up in really good condition and some of the aftermarket cars that were available at the time.

[@alex76gr]

Very nice addition and i wish you to enjoy it. Personally, i don't mind if my retro machines are yellowed as long as they are clean. I don't know if what i'm going to say is heresy or not, but i would love to see Commodore use Ensoniq sound chip as replacement for the Paula chip.

[@kek23k]

Not really familiar with early Apple stuff (I'm an old Amiga guy) so when I heard you mention the specs for the audio chip I was really impressed. Then I heard the games! :D

[@MMuraseofSandvich]

Bard's Tale I and II are great on this machine (EA/Interplay never made III for the IIgs primarily because Apple abandoned it), as is the Ultima series up to V (Lord British decided to go PC only from VI onward). There's also Silent Service and Zany Golf if you're feeling masochistic. I burned so many hours on Arkanoid II.

[@VectrexRoli]

According to my experience with retrobriting so far those streaks could happen when you use a cream peroxide that is "too strong" and also there is too much UV light. Usually I use creme peroxide 12% 40 vol max. together with an Osram Ultra Vitalux 300 W UV lamp, so I am not using sun light anymore so that I have full control over the light conditions. But I never did try it on the Apple IIgs and maybe there the plastic is completely different. ;-)

[@ModernVintageGamer]

interesting feedback. i think the Salon Creme 40 might be overkill and 'shocks' the plastics especially in the middle of summer over here if you keep them outside for too long. I had great success with an Amiga 500 and Atari ST earlier this year with the same method.

[@MegaManNeo]

Not that I'd retrobright anything myself but I think it's cool you showed us what can go wrong nonetheless. At least you got your II GS free from the yellowing, that's worth a lot and looks better anyway.

[@ToddsNerdCave]

Oh wow. That marbling looks like a pain in the ass to deal with. I have a couple things I want to retrobright this summer, but man, I dunno. My A1200 could use it though. Great video!

[@ModernVintageGamer]

yeah it sure is. i dont know if i could ever build up the nerve to retrobright an A1200 case - but i think you might want to try it on some throw-away items first and get familiar with it

[@kek23k]

Just get one of the new cases that have recently been kickstartered. Retrobriting wears off pretty fast from what I've read.

[@TheGuruMeditation]

Sorry your machine got a little messed up, but thanks for sharing this important info MVG! Great stuff. So, are you saying you should have washed it in the sink with soap and water first, then retrobrite - or simply washed in the sink with soap and water and skip the retrobrite? This is an interesting issue. I also heard that retrobrite can make the plastic more brittle. Do you mix anything with your Salon Care 40, or do you use the Salon Care 40 by itself? Great video as usual MVG!!! -- Bill

[@ModernVintageGamer]

Hi Bill ! - i use Salon Care 40 by itself . ive used it on other projects including an A500 , Atari ST and other consoles without any issues until now. And yeah - i should have taken more care in cleaning each part with soap and water before taking them outside

[@loganjorgensen]

That's what I like about it is the legacy support, much harder to find even older Apples than this one to play the old games on without paying a lot more often. Grey & Beige plastic, so popular, so prone to yellowing. :(

[@soviet9922]

i have the same problem doing the retro-bright thingy if you have the time in place of wrapping up in foil just apply the cream using a brush and reapply and move it around every 15 minutes now i do this way when i have to retro-bright and never have a problem again of course is work intensive but you will get a much better result. Also about the apple text just apply over it will not be remove.

[@ethanrini813]

The 8bitguy experienced marbeling on his Osborne 1 retrobrighting

[@pipschannel1222]

Nice video, keep up the good work my man! The chip at 3:11 is not the 5503. It contains the glue logic for the sound system. The actual Ensoniq licensed Apple 5503 Digital Oscillator chip is right above is (the long DIP40 package under the red connector).

[@jrherita]

Seeing an Apple IIGS in action makes me want to upgrade my Atari 800XL with a 65c816 accelerator and VBXE..

[@ike-2357]

Hmm, maybe next time if you put your next retrobrite project in a vaccuum chamber it might work better, although I haven't tested that yet. But I personally use salon care developer 40, it's a watery clear liquid, and Its perfect for small batches of retrobrite projects. I have had amazing results with it.

[@onometre]

I was going to retrobrite my SNES a few weeks ago and never got around to it. Now I'm glad I was lazy

[@Toasty_Gaming]

Its still worth a try, just do it correct and while your at it add a clear coat so it doesn't return yellow

[@mrhoogles]

with marbling, submerging it in liquid style retro brighting wont fix that?

[@EXITMUSIC2011]

When I retr0brited my Amiga A1200 I didn't use clingfilm, I went out every 15mins to re-apply solution to stop it drying out, it worked great.

[@ModernVintageGamer]

interesting idea. i may test that out sometime. Im not sure where you live but id probably need to do it every 5 minutes where i am :)

[@EXITMUSIC2011]

haha yeah I live in Manchester, England so rains a lot but we do get some hot days in summer.

[@agentjs09]

but you need sunlight in order for the solution to work.

[@jannevaatainen]

There's light also in the shadows, just not as much.

[@kooky216]

nice video, shame about the marks but looks great in the end

[@zgbapl]

try scanning the apple logo and printing it on transparent foil (or just let some company do it instead), this way you can spray the whole case and then just stick the label.

[@rager1969]

Nice video. How much did the RAM and CF cards cost, not including the SIMMs and CF? Also, was the GS described as as-is? I'm always concerned about buying "as-is"/"not tested"/"powers on but can't test" units from eBay, because they likely don't work. I guess at $20, you didn't have to lose.

[@Zestypanda]

I have the same streaking happening. It was on a cheap desktop. So it wasn't that bad. Can I fix it?

[@johneygd]

Men i wish we all had the balls to restore those old stuff to keep them alive rather then let them suffering in such awful conditions.

[@swampnutz]

You had really thick spots all over when you were putting the solution on, it looked super thick too. A light coat on the plastic wrap and a light, even coat on the parts is all you need, and if your peroxide solution is thick, water it down a tiny bit so it's easier to get an even coat. I think you may be right with the cleaning, too. Alcohol and goo gone and windex at first to get it most of the way, get the stubborn stuff off, but then get a HOT sink full of water with some dawn dish soap and a big nylon brush, scrub the bugger, and let dry. Wear gloves when handling after this so you don't transfer any oils. It's like painting model kits as a kid...prep work is essential. Time left out also appears to matter. Seems like everyone who has the marbling that I've seen has let them sit out in the sun for way too long. A few hours at a time, then wash off and repeat the next day if necessary for stubborn spots. Slow and steady wins the race.

[@ModernVintageGamer]

yeah going back and watching i noticed that too. you are 100% correct about prep work

[@swampnutz]

Still a cheap IIgs though, can't beat that! If it was the late 80's, early 90's might be able to market it as stonewashed!

[@JonRowlison]

You didn't mention how you hooked that monitor up to the IIgs... did you make a separate video on that?

[@craiggilchrist4223]

Use a product called Maskol, it liquid mask you apply with a thin brush.

[@MrMario2011]

Glad to see your take on this, I've seen a few retrobright videos but I haven't done it because admittedly... It is a lot more effort than I want to put into it, haha.

[@El_Guapo74]

Is that a name brand retrobrite or do you make your own?

[@TheModShopCO]

Not sure if you've found a solution to painting around the logo. If you wanted to take a good quality picture of it and give me the measurements I could cut and send you a vinyl template that will lay over it long enough for you to paint that area. Alternatively I could cut a stencil with the lettering that you could just paint in with black.

[@xCADILLAC1982x]

MVG, I’d like to talk to you about emulation on the XBOX ONE X. I know it’s already been done to some extent. But I think with the new systems there is plenty of headroom for EVERY Retro Platform. I could be wrong, but I’d like to have your thoughts.

[@theslownorris7277]

No disrespect intended, but I myself "marbled" a IIgs case. BUT BROTHERS AND SISTERS! I HAVE A SOLUTION AND I"M HERE TO SPREAD THE GOOD NEWS! ;) 1-Remove rainbow apple logos. There will be a pin hole in back... use something blunt (not a pin) to slowly and carefully push it out. No worries, the remaining rubber-type glue on the back will be sufficient in most cases to simply stick it back on when you are done. (Most times the paint on these logos will hold, but I lost a beautiful apple disk drive and ALL the logos on my beloved Amiga 1000/Commodore 1080 in not taking these off. The paint rinsed off during the post peroxide rinse. Remove them and avoid heartbreak!) 2-Wash well in dish-soapy hot water, rinse 3- Obtain a clear plastic storage-type container large enough for the project... or just buy a darned big one for future projects. 4- apply Peroxide 40 and place in the container (with lid). I use a paint brush for a thin even coat. 5-reapply the peroxide paste 2-3 more time during the daylight, keeping it relatively wet. IF it should solidify and start building up streak lines? Add 1 part water and thin them down right away. You can always add another day to the process of retrobriting it. I have never had to in a high-sun day, but I am high-altitude in the US west. 6-Rinse and sponge off with warm water. 7-Repeat if necessary. Keyboard keys: 1-Remove keys. Clean with dish soap and hot water rinse 2-Sink them in a solution of 1 part peroxide 1 part water in a clear bowlmake sure the solution has 2x as much water as is needed to clover the kays at the bottom. 3-Cover with bowl with a clear top. 4-Sit 1-3 time during a high-sun day, making sure all keys are submerged. 5-Repeat if necessary DO NOT EVER USE PLASTIC CLING WRAP!!! EVER!. Go my way or investigate UV-light retrobriting! In total I've done about 40 cases/monitor casings now. I am not trying to be a 'know-it-all." I kick myself in the head over ruining my Amiga 1000 and lament the IIgs I borked in my novice experiments. Please. I beg you. I'm sure someone out there will say, that my method takes too long, but to me? Better safe than sorry. ( I believed someone commented on submerging all the parts. I tried that too)

[@agentjs09]

I second this, submersion is way better than using cream. This has given marvelous results. I have actually been able to use nothing but 3% hydrogen peroxide by adding Tupperware filled with water to displace empty space in the container. That way I can submerge the case with less H202.

[@briantacke357]

I had one of these

[@etms]

These past 10 years, I've always been told by some of my chemist friends to run aways from Retr0bright, this is the worst thing to do with plastics. It definitively affects and weakens the polymer structure and can even cause its disintegration. And on top of that, the yellow is coming back no matter what. Sorry for your IIGS man :( You should try to find another (top) case, shouldn't be too hard. Great machine ! Don't hesitate to get a Stereo card, it will give more justice to the sound chip.

[@crazeduser]

How did you connect the monitor??

[@Mastergeko4]

IIgs Keyboards ALWAYS cost a shit ton of money

[@Zizzily]

I dunno if it was just me, but the white balance seemed really off in the first half of the video. Dunno if it was from the cherry wood desk or what, but it looked odd. Also, sorry to hear about your case. Hopefully you can get it touched up and looking better soon. Maybe in the future, can try it just on a small, out of the way spot of the plastic first to see if it's going to be an issue with that item or not?

[@ModernVintageGamer]

its not you - i have a hell of a time with color correction etc. i wish i knew how to be good at it sometimes

[@Zizzily]

Can try something like a gray card: amzn.to/2sWsSk2 Especially if you lock your camera's white balance to that at the beginning of the shot. Plus, if you're doing color adjustment in post, it gives you a good reference.

[@WilliamZwicky]

Don't google "color correction," you don't want to go down that rabbit hole. Fortunately just managing white balance will get you 99% of the way there. If your camera has manual white balance, use it before every setup. Anything white will work -- paper, posterboard, whatever you got. If your camera does not have manual WB, then shoot video of the white object periodically, or just leave something white in the frame, then use your edit app to WB. That's it!

[@SqualidsargeStudios]

wait motherboard, wasn't it a logicboard back then?

[@SevenDeMagnus]

So cute.

[@MaelstromExceptions]

@ 5:19, what game music please?

[@johnraymondt.domingo4105]

Submerging yellow plastic to peroxide and water is the best take a lot of trial and error but atleast it wont cook up the plastic.

[@bravestbullfighter]

You could've gotten the better extended keyboard for that much.

[@TheDiamoniteG]

Where did that music come from

[@infinitecanadian]

It isn't a good idea to pull on the wires if you are unplugging, as you did for the power supply. I think I did that with an Atari 1050 disk drive and I ended up having to solder the connectors onto the wires again. It is best to grab the plug and unplug it.

[@drzeissler]

where do you gut the cf-card-controller from...i am still waitung about 1,5 years to get a cff3000.

[@ModernVintageGamer]

www.ebay.com/itm/Apple-IIgs-MicroDrive-Turbo-Storage-Controller-512Meg-Hard-Drive-ReActiveMicro-/302354537761?

[@drzeissler]

thx! but 115 item 45 shipping.... btw. my IIgs did not work with my lcd, is there a trick? thx Doc

[@ModernVintageGamer]

ouch - its free shipping in the USA. $45 would be a dealbreaker for me also

[@markcummings150]

Assuming you have some kind of RGB adapter, most likely your LCD is not 15KHz compatible. have a look at this for info and solution: manilagear.com/vga-monitors-for-the-apple-iigs/

[@drzeissler]

Thx, I have not tested my BL702A yet. Thx!

[@jklein17]

Has nothing to do with not having cleaned it well enough. It has everything to do with cling wrap. Easy solution is to not use cling wrap at all. Yes you will have to reapply the retro bright emulsion once it drys out but big deal if you never again get any marbling.

[@marcel9568]

What's the noise at 1:25?

[@adamperry3719]

I have an OLD Apple IIGS and I am the original owner I am getting and error Fatal system error on my qdrive 0682 can any one help?

[@terrystearns9463]

I think it might have something to do with the plastics used on the gs I've done at least 30 Commodore and Amiga cases using the same method as you never a problem.. Then when I did my GS it turned out like your pretty awful..

[@Mastergeko4]

Make sure to Remove the Purple P-RAM Battery Before it Leaks all over the board and ruins it!

[@ButcherGrindslam]

Simpsons: Revenge of DO'H.

[@Jermainskee]

what's the name of the song

[@ModernVintageGamer]

its called Coast to Coast - on my soundcloud - link in the description. enjoy :)

[@Jermainskee]

Modern Vintage Gamer thanks! Love the restore and song!

[@drzeissler]

Same thing here :(

[@drzeissler]

...but I think it's not the cleaning...it's perhaps better to put it completely under water for whitening. I think its because it's not the same amount of brightning-fluid all over the case.

[@agentjs09]

submerge it, don't use the cream. Far better results. My IIgs looks brand new as of yesterday.

[@ChrisStoneinator]

You could say, mistakes were made

[@JoPeTuYaTroJoueY]

What's the internet consensus on this alternative way to get ABS plastic clean ? : kzbin.info/www/bejne/ZoOmqXaemN6WmpY

[@KrunchyTheClown78]

Carrot-Tika......

[@ModernVintageGamer]

karate-ka ;)

[@KrunchyTheClown78]

Yeah, I subtly was making fun of an 80's Atari commercial announcer dude lol yeah...cuz thats how you fucking pronounce it, dummy :P

[@KieranShort]

Interesting that this came out at a very similar time to the 8bit guy who screwed his osborne keyboard the exact same way. See 8mins24 into kzbin.info/www/bejne/eH7Ym3yJrLChjc0

[@EddieBurke]

You should white balance your videos. This entire video is timed blue. Good stuff though!

[@ksln]

Yay, another original out of production case made brittle. #yellow4ever

[@0xE9]

not to be a downer but the music is kinda annoying

[@craigb6185]

What a horrible system.. what was it actually competing with back in the day?

[@tetsujin_144]

In my opinion... Nothing. In terms of its general specs and capabilities ("16 bit" system, 12-bit color palette on a 200 line display, etc.) it was like a contemporary of the Amiga or Atari ST, just not as good (slow CPU, 8-bit wide data bus, 64K memory segmentation, 1MHz video RAM, no blitters, no sprites, no hardware scrolling, etc.) But I wouldn't say it was *actually* competing with them.

[@Mobin92]

Drop the background music, at least when you are talking. It's 10/10 annoying!