The Argument I wish I made!

[@crackcaster]

thought u had a graduation hat on at first xD

[@RiaScarlet]

My issue with MrPokke is that he never hears others people's arguments to understand their side but instead He Uses their arguments to see the issue in that and counter it. conversations like this will never end. you will end up just going in a loop.

[@EtherealRune]

He doesn't even counter it - He just makes nonsensical returns and his conversation-partner just eats it. Like, people just let him get away with utter garbage instead of telling him "Jesus, you're stupid."

[@akamenightraid8045]

* I feel * 😂

[@ChannelRaznoff]

My problem with him is that he calls gacha players greedy for wanting more from companies that are using incredibly predatory practices to milk players. Defending a greedy multi-billion dollar company by calling customers greedy is really irritating.

[@itsdakingofkings2550]

You can almost see him doing this in real time. He’ll be like “That’s a good point, but I have the perfect counter for this”

[@Gambit_gamble]

Hes just baiting at this point

[@sancobit]

Pokke will never understand players grinding for materials for a character that will eventually be powercreep because he has a game manager that will do the chores for him.

[@Savasvania]

I didn't watch tectone's debate with pokke but I did watch saint's, and I can kinda see in it how tectone did allow some softballing for pokke. Saint would be trying desperately to get pokke to answer one question(example: is Robin's best team follow-up) , yes or no, and he would waffle on and on saying much of nothing and then tectone would take the reigns and that question was left unanswered. This happened so many times it was frustrating. Pokke even brought up wuwa for comparison to try and get a gotcha, but when saint would elaborate tectone goes in and says we are only talking about HSR. At the end of the day though if pokke cannot clear moc with only 1.0 characters then all his points are moot, a thing he was unwilling to do.

[@dandyshark6094]

He did laughing at that bro like "Robin best team is follow up" Then pokke " no its not *laughing" Procceed to explain robin best with everyone It just like talking with a kid 😅

[@reedsad4652]

He did clears it with seele wdym

[@GMan345ism]

​​@@reedsad4652 with a E2 S1 Robin

[@infinitykiyen6270]

@@reedsad4652 Look at his team. Its not F2P with Robin with LC and E1 and Ruan Mei with LC... Damn... As F2P I don't even have E or LC. Edit

[@SyrFlora]

​@@reedsad4652yeah u can clear with bringing stonk support. And also a really really very good relic. Signature and some eidolon for some of the old char or on support. But if u replace seele with another powercreep char. U don't need that eidolon or insane relic. They are just so strong that they can do wildly better performance at low investment.

[@DracoSlayer]

I will also say, to add to your point, I appreciate that Saintontas was always more focused on tearing down the argument, not tearing down Pokke. He handled it very well

[@ixirion]

My take from the debate will sound harsh - mr Pokke gives bad vibes - arrogant and condescending - narcisitic and self important - cant take responsibilty - kinda fake - he looks like he is pretending to care about the game but in fact he is not. Its just a job and he is securing a paycheck In contrast I dont get anything like that from iyo for example - yes he is a bit immature and has wrong takes but he cares about the game and is sincere.

[@sakuseihuoshen]

Mr.Pokke loves HSR lol, but rn he has a project going on that he plans to use as proof of his argument. Ofc, the problems will only be revealed a year or two later but better late than never

[@BiBiren]

I would totally judge the book by its cover when i said it before (and ill said it again) that Pokke looks like Atsu

[@mogia3072]

HSR is already a powercreep since the day SUPER BREAK release.

[@EtherealRune]

Technically things went downhill with Silverwolf and screwing over the established RPG-weakness-system. So, super-early in Version 1.1 already.

[@mogia3072]

@@EtherealRune ah thats true. silverwolf is my only debuffer but now. Meta has change frequently i stop playing when my Jingliu overpowered by Super Break and follow up comps.

[@dandyshark6094]

Its already a thing since acheron, but subtle because hp inflation is not really problem back then and we still can use other team

[@axellyann5085]

@@EtherealRune Is Silverwolf the equivalent of Fallen Edelgard in Fire Emblem Heroes? F!Edelgard is by far the biggest powercreep i've experienced in a gacha game. The meta changed forever after her release and the powercreep went nuts banner after banner that i'm still surprised how the game still alive.

[@EtherealRune]

@@axellyann5085 I wouldn'T say Silverwolf was 'that' extreme, but she did set the tone of how things would change from her release on out, which absolutely held true.

[@johnhallow]

I used to be a fan of Pokke but lately he's been beyond obnoxious

[@kaiipop4762]

Frr same, at first his content was actually informative, engaging and educational but now he focuses too much on drama but I guess that’s what gets the most views :/

[@Tunnelsnakes]

Yeah, same. As time went on, his ego inflated more with each passing day, but I guess we can totally forgive him because Eastern CC with gym trainer muscles (/s). I sense no humbleness from him anymore like in his early days.

[@weskervalentine7264]

same, 10 months ago he was ok but now he is so unlikeable and repellent

[@iamjustice1995]

​@@weskervalentine7264 because he likes to victimize himself. He even bans people who have constructive criticism against his opinion.

[@xxx-022]

Same, i used to find him funny but now he’s insufferable

[@Alpharay17]

The biggest thing i took away from all this 'drama' is basically - dont play hoyo games. Theres already plenty of better gachas to play plus theres tons more coming out over the next year or so like Ananta, Azur Promelia, Duet Night Abyss, NTE, AK Enfield plus a bunch i cant think of atm. These games are madr by devs who care about making fun games while hoyo is investing heavily into AI which im sure they wont use to churn out fully AI developed games- no hoyo would bever do something like that, right!....right?

[@dandyshark6094]

So true, just play other game or wait new gacha game which now they will have same quality with hoyo but better developer. Hoyo community already too toxic and they defend the multi billion dollar company isnt helping 😂

[@thederp9309]

The thing is… Pokke is a social media content creator… that is absolutely atrocious at the whole SOCIAL aspect of his job. It screams incompetence at best and at worst makes him look like a egotistical narcissist. He simply doesn’t care. Social media is a social job, ignoring that is straight up stupid… it’s part of the job. And he should be held to a higher standard and he should hold himself to a higher standard because he has social influence ESPECIALLY in the gacha space where gacha games are BUILT ON EXPLOITATION. He doesn’t care about the consumers here, his entire audience. He’s fine calling them stupid because he’s so drama brain rotten at this point. I have no doubts that this is because of the people he surrounds himself with, drama junkies, that it slowly just deteriorated what he does as a person that should be capable of simple nuanced thinking or because he’s surrounded by yes men in his audience so hit grew his ego. It’s likely some parts of both, that’s how the human psychology works, people changed based on their environment and the main factor is other people because humans are social creatures. Pokke surrounded himself with trash and it made content worse, it’s as simple as that. He allowed it at the end of the day though, he doesn’t care about the quality, only the views it rakes in. He made these “pull value” videos where he rates the now “terrible characters” high rating like DHIL and Jingliu but he acts like he saw the future and knew they were going to be bad because he’s oh so smart. So that leaves possibilities, he purposefully lied to his audience and said they were valuable units even though he thought they wouldn’t age well, or he’s straight up lying cause can’t admit he’s wrong because of his own ego and can’t acknowledge his content is worthless. Let’s also not forget the behind the scenes work other people do for Pokke… his account farmers, he makes other people farm on his account and he acts like this. It’s genuinely insane. He wants to begin a fresh F2P account but he has the unfair advantage of being in the future and having experience, back when the game launched we couldn’t see the future, Pokke knows what units are worse as the game progressed where day 1 F2Ps had to use what was given at the time so Pokke will just skip all those units he’s basically playing with what is known as “meta knowledge” where he truly can’t emulate the experience of those that aren’t genuinely new so the point already falls apart.

[@dandyshark6094]

Pokke once a guide cc when hes still small cc , then suddenly he have first drama with dreamy when the drama can be solved privately and just nothing burger, But got help by tectone ,boosting his ego and viewership , now we can see how he become and his community

[@justplay5016]

Saint obliterated Tectone's pet and known Hoyoshill Pokke. Saint smothered Jokke to oblivion. And it's funny how Tectone tries to cover his ass once again by turning his chat into emote only as soon as chat was turning against jokke. Bro thought he will cook with that grin.

[@ImproperStandby]

I think the main issue for me was at least the ego behind it, I have no problems with seeing both sides of the argument and it's good to look at perspectives, however if ego is brought into the discussion then it can sully it rather than provide a middleground. There was no meeting a the middle, there was just my way or the highway and if you think wrong then you're dumb, It would be better if there was acknowledgement in that regard but all this "drama" seems to be just someone with an ego proving a point then it getting inflated by sources.

[@kuvjason7236]

I hope you see this and read it through, and actually bring it up to Pokke addressing his fresh f2p acc he just started. Pokke made a tweet where he started his fresh f2p account. It's not to be fair on his end and he needs to place restrictions on it to see the complete viewepoint of the players he was attacking. His initial main arguement definitely was towards the CURRENT F2P VETS that was there, on launch, day 1, not the fresh f2ps that literally just started. Fresh f2ps have a massive stockpile of jades waiting and Pokke has the hindsight of already knowing which 1.X and 2.X are still good or just outright terrible so yeah, he's gonna skip on the Luocha, Blade, Silver Wolf, Sparkle, etc.. we current f2p vets back then did not know the longevity of these characters, so yeah, we pulled that Luocha, Sparkle, Jingliu, etc.... Pokke already has an unfair advantage which he seems completely oblivious to it. Using that stockpile of jades, he will pull Big Herta like he said he would and pull E2S1 Robin again that is coming in a few days. I think some fair restrictions would be 1, He can't use the entirety of that massive stockpile of gems waiting because, no current f2p veteran has that massive amount of jades simply waiting. 2, Pokke can have 1 completed team like FART, for example, using those gems as I would assume most f2ps have atleast 1 completed team. 3, At most, Eidolon 1 only because f2ps are not going to go for that E2+++ unless they really, really, really like that character. 4, *(most importantly)* Once hes completed that team, the rest of the gems goes completely untouched and he starts with a decent 5000 jades out of that massive stockpile, and keeps track to really really really simulate the f2p experience most people have and THAT, is where I believe he can get a better understanding as to why the vast majority of the current f2p vets disagreed with his opinion on the issue of HSR's powercreep.

[@Satyr42]

MrPokke also has other people farm resources for him, This cannot be allowed for his F2P account. He has to do all the work all by himself. It's his account and so he must do it 100% solo. He also should not be allowed to use characters of his friends to farm for resources. Everything needs to be done by himself and the characters he has obtained and build.

[@kuvjason7236]

@@Satyr42 Lets hope Connor sees these statements because if someone with a larger outreach than us doesn't bring it up to Pokke... it only furthers Pokke to be out of touch.

[@ilovewagner]

Have u said this on mr pokke vid?

[@thetcaseaway4306]

That's already a Delusion tho..... AND ALSO, If POWERCREEP is really such a problem for F2P and MrPokke is wrong and just talk out of his backside, all you need to do is wait for the 3.x update to be DONE and his Account would be BRICKED like the VETS you talk about, right? Just wait for 6 month to a year and said "I told you so" Etc etc After all he is wrong right? All he said about mitigation and solution WILL NOT WORK and your accounts is BRICKED because the COMPANY is very very Predatory right? So yeah, let him play his Folly and let him bricked hia account then. Why required this "HSR NUZLOCKE" Rules LOL 😂

[@sya2711]

imo, he should just spend all he`s jades he aquires pre-penacony on building 1 good team comp and spend exces on random banners. then start fresh for penacony up untill 3.0 and see what kinda team he can cook without any 3.0 units or sunday/robin. that would be the most `fair` example of a person who had no idea what they were doing and `accidentally` skipped the goated supports from 2.0.

[@zap7737]

Pokke got cooked so hard, that at a certain point he just .exed and stopped talking lol. Especially when asked to do a clear with two teams of 1.X units. Which he then rebuttalled "but why would anyone not have any 2.0 units", which he doesnt even realize proves the point lol. But in all honesty, this has been dragged out way too long and its only self serving for the CCs. Pokke made his comment, everyone knows its dumb and now hes just farming it. When in reality, we should all just point, laugh and go about our business. Cause Pokke is just turning into the mint picker equivalent for HSR. It is his favorite gacha. His bread and butter. His money maker. And now he cannot bring himself to see fault in the game. Every single critique that has been presented to him in the last week, he has defended against all of them lol. And every time its the same. Someone raises a critique and he goes "uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh, but what does that even mean? Like what does a good state of the game mean to you?". He legitimately has to fight against the urge to aggree that something is bad lol. He also gets way too anecdotal. EVERYONE who is disagreeing with him, are casuals. Because if they werent, they would be pulling based on meta, know how important supports are ,yada yada yada. When thats just not true. I have every unit in the game except jade. I full clear everything. I disagree with him lol.

[@SM-oc4rc]

Pokke the kind of guy to look at a cancer patient and go "You want to be healthy? But what does 'healthy' mean to you exactly? You are just complaining about cancer, give us a practical solution."

[@Doro-bashi]

I think it's important to point about those terms were born in a previous Gen (MMOs) and context, it's been days and the cause of it, is the lack of clearness because, those concepts aren't so well translated in this current generation (gachas without PvP)

[@ordemarebys8050]

His original statement can be easily proven wrong. He states "Only those who are greedy and stupid get hit by power creep" This is wrong because NOT ONLY greedy and stupid people got hit by power creep. Even people who "played smart" by his own definition got hit by power creep. Example. Content creators that came onto him are neither greedy or stupid. By his own definition of "smart choice" that he gave, they played the game "correctly" choosing a current meta unit and building a team around that unit. And they still got hit by power creep. According to Pokkie all CCs who believe there is a power creep problem are greedy and stupid. That is a direct insult to all of us basically. Just ask him to his face "Do you think all of us are stupid and greedy?" and watch him not giving a direct yes/no answear.

[@weskervalentine7264]

pokke is a self absorbed, disingenuous bs artist that has got too comfortable in his bubble, talking down to his audience that has shown they will take the disrespect and like it but saint is outside of that bubble and saint is stuck to the fact with info and proveable facts, pooke got cooked and was crashing out because his terrible take was designed for casuals and his audience that he know he can shoot down with a tweet that will get a couple likes or on his stream were he can embrass then ban them, he was not ready for a cc outside his circle to expose him

[@leon3589]

4:01 yeah but that argument is a nothing burger. You could pull better, you could play better, you could farm more. There's a million things one can do to mitigate something. But that's moving the goalposts. Because the argument is: Power creeping. This is something that comes strictly from the developer side, and we're strictly angry about the developer side of things. Saying that we could "mitigate it" is completely useless. There's no middle ground here. Or rather, the solution is not in the middle (this is called a middle ground fallacy). The solution is that we stop consuming like robots and critically think about whether this is what we want to do with our hard earned cash. Hoyo doesn't need the money, they don't have your interests in mind, they don't give af about you or anyone but profit. They're a company, that's what they do. And saying that "it's the players fault" not only is disingenuous but it's also dangerous. And worse yet is cuck behaviour. Hoyo is not your mate. If you defend them it's because you have stockholm syndrome. If instead we stick together and DEMAND that we're not treated like rubbish or else we won't consume like zombies then we're gonna get more out of them. And we should get more out of them. WE MADE THEM. We made them who they are. We gave them the money, the artwork, the fandom, the discussions. We put them up there. And now that they're richer than ever they try to take more than ever? F that. You guys bend over if you want but I'm not gonna. PS. Not saying Connor said anything opposite to what I just typed here. I'm merely stating how useless the conclusion they reached was. It's a company, don't defend a company. Ever. It's like standing up to defend coca cola or walmart. Remember when people used to defend Blizzard? I do. Look at them now.

[@argonaut8490]

Something i wish was discussed was that a lot of the arguments were based in hindsight when most of these pull decisions are effectively made in the dark unless your looking for leaks a few patches ahead(though that can still bite you later). Plus the fact that mr pokke and other CCs give advice on who to pull to the community. But mr pokke just comes out swinging, ignoring the fact that players who followed his advice might be in a situation where their accounts are effectively bricked. Then says it's their fault. I think CCs need to be more responsible going forward with recommending units considering as of what we know at this time by the end of 3.x, 2.x units will feel similar to how 1.x feels right now. So unless true dmg is the ceiling for the rest of the game's lifespan 3.x units will lose value and we'll have the same discussion again. Maybe we as a playerbase should approach pulling differently until the devs give us a reason to feel like our investments are voided the minute they decide so.

[@kimura2176]

...isn't the whole "no one cares about the 80 jades" basically the argument of "why do you care about end game anyway?", i genuinelly want someone to explain to me, if you don't want the 80 jades/3* moc 12, then why does the powercreep affects you, why should you have a say on the powecreep argument? you aren't doing moc 12 because you are doing waifu over meta and enjoy getting your favs? not wanting to get political/going into polemic arguments, but isn't this the same as people shouting race shaming and what not to x media while the people being "race shamed" are actually ok with the media people try to tear down? it feels very weird to heard people that legit do not care nor do end game by choice have this discussions, it feels like validation to their low effort if they want the difficulty bar to be taken down for them all of this may come as an elitist take, but it is no different than seeing some tourist trying out elden ring and blaming the devs because the game is too hard, when the game is hard by design, maybe im wrong for thinking like this, but it doesn't take out the fact that the whole argument has turn into a "they hate him because he told the truth" except the truth has more layers, and the layers are stuff that we should be taking for granted and only discussing for the sake of them not going beyond, a bit of leakers, but from what we can see from 3.0 and 3.1, herta is not that stronger to any of the current DPS, aglea even looks like a sidegrade to JY with more QoL, tribbie is basically RM but different, mydei is just blade but fixed to be on par with current power, it looks to me that the game is landing on a sweetspot, rather than going up, in that, i agree heavily with tectone on this one, people are overselling 3.0 characters so hard that they are failing to look at whats in front of them by just taking for granted that "summon meta" is a thing, when aglea doesn't seem any more stronger than JY or acheron, people are taking for granted "emanator will powercreep everything" without noticing that in the JP livestream the host cleared with 4 cycles with herta, basically putting her in the same power level as acheron.

[@kaka09876543210]

About herta does not more powerful than other is true for e0, I use trial and herta damage is not to big for casual it comfortable but with good support and e2 the damage is very big.

[@axellyann5085]

I don't play HSR but there's a bigger issue when powercreep start this early in a game. It WILL spiral down like crazy because that's how it works. Only way for this to not happen is if the game had balance patches, but so far the only gacha i know that have it is Epic Seven (and it's a full pvp game). Just watching people talking about it already give me vietnam flashback with Fallen Edelgard release in Fire Emblem Heroes. She shaped the meta around her and all newer characters were only considered good if they could beat her. You can already imagine how this alone made the powercreep go rampart. If your favorite character is from 1.0 then most likely you wont be able to use it properly. It got to a point that even for PvE modes, you need to use a bunch of stupidly op units to at least have a chance to beat some harder PvE content. I wouldn't like to see this same shit happening in any other game. With a commmunity as big as Hoyo, you guys can for sure pressure them to not go overboard on newer characters.

[@infinitykiyen6270]

I'm just happy that Saintotas bring out 1 out of all problem I mention...

[@LeoA05]

You dont blame anyone in that 1v4? I do. I think overall you guys did ok but my issue was with E-Thin. Dude took the front as the moderator but didnt moderate well. There were times where one of you would bring up a topic he'd have an interjection and flip to something else. He'd stop people to hear Pokke's take but after Pokke says his thing, he took the "yea i get that or I can agree" and move the conversation to something else. I felt bad for Cath, her points were pushed aside . She tried to formulate her point, then she gets interjected and brush aside her point. It was fine if you all were on call, ya'll shouldve just talked 1 at a time

[@Noobster474]

I hope Cab is NOT defending some of Pokke's point at this moment anymore

[@infinitykiyen6270]

TBH everyone has to agree on one thing that is important to the Turn Bases Strategies Game. 1) They will always have a set of teams. However, HSR always creates a new one to power creep any older team. This means any META of that team just died... Just like YGO deck power creep. What happened there is a lesson to every Live Services game even Real-Life Card Game... 50-90% of players even anime/manga fans just left YGO... Like damn... They destroy every community... I'm a migrant from the YGO game too. I know how deadly this power creep spiral is. 2) I agree that as friends all they want is for a friend to actually just fix words. They won't want to tackle the power creep problem. That's someone else's job. TBH I'm only after Mr Pokke since he's the wrong, not Tectone or Gacha Smack. 3) Power Creep is rarely ever a player's problem even more so in turn bases strategies games. Why? A great strategist will always make the worst-tier deck work somehow... This is the keyword! Not using newer staff but using old staff and winning. If you can't it isn't a strategy game... You suppose to play smart not the game outsmarting you... 4) The "play smart" problem is also Mr Pokke problem too. He makes those guides just as everyone else did. Everything he said a must-pull was the best team then. Well, not until the game introduces a new game-breaking team... 5) Power Creep and HP Inflation actually apply to everything in Honkai Star Rail... Why? Just use Firefly intro Skill in maps 1.0 to 2.X. You will see proof yourself... She will nuke every 1.X map except 2.X map. This proves they buff every X.0 map. Including all grinding quests... So yes, casual players are hurt by this too... Not just end game MoC. He would have notice this if he grinds himself. Edit - Like seriously man... Mr Pokke should accept the general facts. Everything get power creep... Its simple... Even game dev game rule...

[@AzureDrag0n1]

Pulling for who you like does in fact mean you do not seriously wish to participate in the late game metagame because even if you pull for the 2.0 or 3.0 characters you may not win. Feixiao without Robin is far far weaker for example. She might not win without Robin. FireFly may not win without Ruan Mei or Fugue. It does not mean there is no powercreep. Powercreep is a problem but those later characters are still dependant on powerful supports to work properly in the modern meta. A lot of these meta characters are dependant on archetypes and synergistic team mates. Blade mostly sucks because he has poor synergistic team mates. There are many ways they could have made characters take advantage of his unique mechanics like his very frequent hp changes and hp scaling. Something you notice when playing Simulated Universe in that he becomes very potent with certain blessings, curios, or equations. Imagine Kafka if she never got Black Swan? She would be the same. You know what would make Seele good? If she had a teammate that allowed her to proc resurgence and maintain buff duration without having to kill an enemy. Something like a buff that triggers all triggerable talents when that buffed character attacks an enemy. The thing that does bother me about this game is how irrelevant most 4 stars are. They are mostly placeholders until you pull the premium 5 star to replace them. It is very rare that a 4 star is the BiS for a particular team.

[@satyamgupta5746]

Connor in your pokke argument you said something like xueyi is good for endgame which is not true and hsr did not do a good job at the 4* department Pokke also said that hanya is good which is completely false And now in 3.x hunt march , moze (a lot of ppl Don't have him e6) are completely useless as meta shifting to aoe (erudition) and there are some ccs recommending people to pull feixiao Only 4* usable are pela, tingyun , rmc, gallagher others are just dogshit I just don't agree with your xueyi take though she needs fugue to function in superbreak and no one is pulling fugue for xuyei and lets hope 3.2 will give us new 4*

[@nickn5419]

Hunt March 7th is still good. Feixiao March robin almost gives me a 3 cycle side 1. This powercreep argument just tells me it's mostly skill issue. As example by your statement of March 7th not being usable. March 7th is heavily underrated and underused

[@satyamgupta5746]

@nickn5419 bro i am talking about 3.x and no all hunt char will age like milk just see the 3.0 and 3.1 new bosses

[@nickn5419]

@@satyamgupta5746 hm maybe, but 4stars will only matter for so long. Who tf is going to use 4 stars if they played day1

[@satyamgupta5746]

@@nickn5419 4* are so imp and i completely agree with your point but hsr should release more GOOD 4* even if they are niche

[@Steel12able]

@@satyamgupta5746 Brother i can assure you Hunt will be fine . Atleast Boothill will be 3.0 Boss takes significant damage taken once broken , He can just ignore the spears and go straight for the boss. I saw a showcase where Gallagher did 240k when the boss is broken w/o superbreak mind you and it was a QQ hypercarry showcase

[@kayyam9959]

long story short for those who are too lazy to watch the arguments.. pokke lost.. but he stood his ground and partially thx to tectone and smack the issue got closed with not much dmg on pokke side.. simply put that

[@bigfootisreal_]

I have multiple friends of mine who tried to get back into HSR since 3.0 is coming out. The dropped the game faster than they picked it up. They all dropped it initially around early 2.x because they didn't like the yapping in Penacony. They came back now and every single units they had with which they were clearing all content effortlessly are pretty much unusable because the HP of enemies increased by around 80% compared to then. Now the only options they have to recover their account is to play regularly for 6months or more to build new team comps which who knows how long will stay being good OR spend money. So they dropped it again and has no plans to return ever again. Pokke is a sweat/elitist and they are the type of people who got opinions which are anti casual/semi casual and which will eventually shorten the longevity of any game because 90% of the player base are casuals/semi casuals. Gatekeeping endgame content of a casual game to only sweats who are deep into meta, whales and daily grinders will 100% kill its player base.

[@virrre]

Or they could catch up with the permanent content they missed within a week with 100+ free pulls + the 100+ pulls in 3.0 and get The Herta or Aglaea and cruise through all content on auto with them for the next 6-10 months. I swear people who never touched the game love pretending HSR is difficult.

[@ilyashutko9247]

​@@virrre or they can hope as if 1 dps can carry all content no matter debuffs, buffs and weaknesses? People love pretending like this game is not predatory dog shit.

[@DarkSizzler]

​@@virrreThen lose on the broken units banner at max pity and reach max pity again on guaranteed lol. Yeah cruising through the content with that one.

[@michaelakadap924]

You might not like him, but he whales which allows the people that are complaining that are free to play to keep playing the game. Like for real you think they just make a game for free? You should just be happy you can even play.

[@bigfootisreal_]

@ Lol no.. Both of those characters are dps and will only be good for the patch they are dropped. "Cruise content for 6-10 months" lol. Every patch after that they will have mediocre damage without their BiS 5* supports. For eg Feixao who's top the chart now and was released 2 patches ago will hit like wet noodle now without Robin and Aventurine. It's Honkai Support Rail, if you disagree you don't know what you're talking about. Another eg FF/Rappa, when they release a character like Fugue, you think that's to increase your damage? Nop, that's the game saying "pick it up or fall behind". Remove RM, Lingsha and Fugue from SB comp and you'll realise that your Rappa and FF hit like wet noodle. Don't even matter if you even got their sig. A DPS's validity in HSR is 2 patches, it's been like that for a long time now. You increase that validity by pulling BiS supports they release for them in the following patches. If not, them HP inflation will hit you in the face hard.

[@unloyal4847]

The "debate" just really showed, actually not just this time but even the older videos, that he is an idiot, MrPokke.

[@kingmalkontent8471]

it's great that you have admited that 4v1 session has been a failure

[@gintobitim1611]

Both made good points imo. MrPokke's point about problem stems from "greed & stupidity" only applies to a part of the community who just chase after biggest numbers. The metaslaves. Metaslaves are greedy wanting their fav old unit do biggest numbers forever. They also the same group who kept complaining that newer unit does bigger number but they're stupid to understand the environment changes all the time. They allow the powercreep to affects them because they only greedy for the highest numbers even though you can still clear with a mix of old & new units. As for Sain, MrPokke points doesn't applies to him because he's a returning player. His v1.0 characters can't do well in v3.0. He doesn't have the pulls ready to pull modern support to drag his 1.0 characters to be playable in latest endgame content. The problem doesn't stem from greed or stupidity, but inactivity. It's not the players problem for being inactive, but the company predatory method to inflict fomo onto the players.

[@pauLquiorra]

Hi Connor! I found your channel when I first started PGR more than a year ago. Saying that, what do you think is the difference between the powercreep in PGR and in HSR? And why do I not see much complaints about it in the PGR spheres?

[@ConnorsThoughts]

I think PGR is viewed differently because of the accessibility. The game rewards players time by allowing them to get all the new S ranks characters if you do play daily/weekly, so power creep is not a problem because everyone can get it. In these other titles unless you are lucky or pay money, you will miss characters or have to skip because you will never have enough premium currency to get them all from a F2P perspective.

[@utsubyo]

the issue i have with that is the fact that mrpokke wasnt really debating if powercreep exists or not and that's what most people seemed to focus on, his whole point was that you can overcome powercreep and if you actually wanted to clear endgame you could do it in spite of powercreep and hp inflation, and if you cant then the only things stopping you are the infamous "greed and stupidity" so i dont think mrpokke was trying to move the goalpost there, he was arguing for the same thing from the start and just as you noticed everyone was trying to argue diffrent things, like how he wrote the tweet, if powercreep exists, is powercreep good, if its on the player or on the devs, if you can make older units clear, how it feels bad to use older units, how it feels bad when new unit is stronger, what if you're unlucky and so on, that's why this whole thing was weird, it's as if everyone collectively decided to move past the fact that if you pull in a reasonable way you'll be able to clear endgame and started looking for other things to fight over because they couldnt argue about player agency i did like how civil it was and that it brought quite a bit of attention to the topic, but that's about it, overall i'm not as happy as people seem to be, to me it just seems like "artificial W", like cool saint won over a point that mrpokke didnt make huge L pokke powercreep bad idk its just kinda weird, but maybe my standard for a discussion/debate is too high for gacha space and i'm the unreasonable one who gets upset that people are trying to fish for a W by going around the main point lmao

[@Shhh_94]

Pokke is making a F2P account even though he has 5 people doing it 😂 he literally hires people to grind everything 😂😂 dude is a whole clown 🤡

[@jaypeedelapaz6486]

And then gacha smack intervened. 😂😂😂

[@EtherealRune]

I think the issue with Tecy going "too soft" on MrPokke is a understandable outcry. People simply wantd him to scrutinize the take and claim properly instead of hearing MrPokke say "Ya, my bad." (which immediately became redundant after he doubled down on Twitter after the convo anyways), but that didn't happen, the whole conversation didn't serve anything, it didn't brought any kind of understanding to any side. So, yes, I think Teccy should've done better - Either communicate properly what his intentions are (because he only did that afterwards, which is always a questionable thing to do) or simply take the situaition with the same bias he always does. Now he just lost credibility, especially after the wanna-be "I'm dissappointed in you"-father talk. He messed up, not the other way around. It's the same logic that applies to MrPokke, if so many people "misunderstood" him, then the issue probably lies with him.

[@peacechan4500]

The fact of the matter is every hoyo games gonna be bad eventually. Genshin and hsr prove this. ZZZ is next in line.

[@valkyrieregalia]

Powercreep is a staple of these games. It is not going away. That is not a battle you can win regardless if you think it is a problem or not. It is true that if you make the right pulling choices, even with F2P currency, you can still do all of end game content and clear it. You can opt out of caring about this to pull whoever without this in mind, and you may miss out on like half a pull of jades every other week, which is basically nothing. So, how much that matters is really just a subjective feeling sort of thing. Personally, I prefer it being like this, as I don't want a Genshin situation where the end game basically doesn't exist because it's so absurdly easy. The end game should be the thing that pushes people to engage with the game a bit more and test their investments and progress to see the fruits of it, for those who care about that part of the game. The idea that the end game should be just another thing in the game that orbits casual players who don't really care about optimization and team synergy when 99% of the game is already like this, including most of end game, since it's only the last few stages that are really difficult for those players, just comes off as entitled and selfish. It's okay for a small part of the game to be for the tryhards, the farmers, the TCs, the people who are very involved with mastering the optimization of the game. Rather, the game is better for it because it means there is something for those players as opposed to there being nothing for them. The casual waifu / husbando collectors who just throw together whatever feels good have literally everything else in the game. They do not need MoC 10~12, PF 4, and Apoc 4 catered to them as well. If someone is that insecure about doing the end game then maybe another game would be a better fit as I love HSR's end game infinitely more than Genshin's and I do not want it to change to accommodate casual players who struggle to do those specific stages due to how they want to play the game at a more casual level. And, no matter how anyone feels about the topic generally, I think HSR will continue the current course because the casual players upset at this will not affect their bottom line because they are a vocal minority, as most casual players really couldn't care much about end game either way. In-fact, there is probably more profit and overall player satisfaction from those who do enjoy the end game being like this than there are people this applies to. The casuals who feel entitled to beat all of end game with poor setups due to their casual playstyle and understanding of the meta are ultimately an insignificant part of the playerbase from any sort of objective analysis. Their egos are not worth appeasing for Hoyoverse, especially when they already have 99% of the game being for them. It's better for the game to have something for the others.

[@Rinta.H]

I don't think pokke was shifting the goal post though. His stance was always you can pull for the newer supports for your older dps, sure it might be harder but its able to get the job done but I do feel that pokke is allowing saint to shift the goal post 1) saint ask for a jing liu team without sunday, pokke delivered and was asked are those units E0S0 2) saint ask pokke to use only 1.x chara to clear moc12 denying the existence of the F2P account that pokke was able to help clear with so it kinda went from No sunday -> no eidolons and signature light cone -> confine within 1.x If it was me I would have gave up debating when more hurdles are slap on the moment proof was given I would agree that its getting harder, but it doesn't sound right to downplay the F2P efforts to clear with what they have

[@IDestroyStuff]

So I can see where you're coming from in saying Saint shifted the goal post - however the point he's making is that 1.X units feel like shit now, he said as much rather plainly. His challenge was for him to use 1.X units to clear current content, so obviously no Sunday as he's subject to different power scaling than 1.X units. And it seemed to me like he was just checking if they were E0S1 but I could have missed him saying that wasn't allowed, as it was 2nd monitor status, lmao. As for the f2p account pokke cleared on, I can't say much about that - didn't see the account. No telling how many Eidolons or signatures it may have, or how good the relics are etc. Mind you, I am openly not a fan of Saint because of his obnoxious behavior over the Wuwa stuff, not that I'd say Pokke is any better here. Just to throw my own $.02 on the issue - 1.X characters have values of damage set in stone that are only ever going up with higher tier relics, which of course have an upper reasonable limit. And from supports being added to the game, which still doesn't make those inherent values better, as the % of HP continues to climb this issue becomes more and more prevalent. There's no reason to pull Blade anymore, nor Silverwolf, or Luocha - So Hoyo needs to do something about that - either buffs (good luck) or just stop running the banners. It's an extreme take but the only people who'd pull for them now are fans of the characters, and while I myself know I like Blade design/kit wise - I also know he's just not that good without E2S1+ and some goofy rng on relics. I don't really see another way for this to end in regards to this at the rate HSR's # bloat is going. As a community we can say "But Sunday made Jing Yuan better!" and while that's true, once we get more summon units that still do more damage than him, and the % of hp continues to climb to accommodate those newer summoner types, he'll be left behind again, because he's a 1.X unit. Also would lead to a need to pull a bunch of supports to enable very specific units, and let's be honest I don't think anyone actually wants that with the current rate of Stellar jades we're given. It's deeply alarming to me when some of the people I know who live and breathe meta are thinking their E2S1 Acheron is going to be unusable in 4months, and while I really hope it won't be that bad, it's concerning that it's even a potential thought. Rather than wait around for it to happen (more) we need to start speaking up, and Pokke pretending it's not an issue because he's a whale isn't helping anyone. There's already people wanting to quit the game because of the state its' in, and that's just not good for any of us, because without pushback that's just going to get worse.

[@thetcaseaway4306]

Saintontas argument when I see the stream is doesn't make sense to me. It's like saying "ok this boxing match is 10 yr Pokke vs 10 yr boxing competition" Alright there is no powercreep from all these years right, then "let have 10 yr Pokke vs 15 yr boxing competition". Like WTF? Powercreep exist, but the problem of powercreep is because your own decision. If in that scenario " 15 yr Pokke vs 15 boxing competition" Fight, if you lost, that's because you didn't train enough or you just genetically worse than your opponent.

[@IDestroyStuff]

@thetcaseaway4306 Short on time so gonna try and condense this reply. The problem with saying use time relative stuff vs time relative stuff in the case of a gacha game is that Stellar Jades (or insert pull currency) is a finite resource. Early players invested all the "free" one time sources they had into characters believed, at the time to be worth the investment. That investment has not panned out well, clearly. And that's a problem of powercreep. The discussion was, from the beginning, that 1.X units are having a bad time right now unless they hit correct element, good battle state (AoE vs single target) and a buff that applies to them. Meanwhile Acheron/FART/Super break are literally ignoring those factors in many cases, even clearing faster when they are improved by them. If you're a whale, or a regular swiper this isn't a concern NEARLY as much, but ultimately still a concern when you factor that people can lose 50/50 and spend weeks > months investing into relics for a character, only to find out that they may be unusable in the endgame for 2-6 months while you wait on a "correct" buff line up. I'm personally in favor of building a dps of each element for this purpose, but even with that in mind Blade is still struggling to clear at times even with correct element weakness. DoT is, tragic in anything not PF right now too. (Or if the MoC is AoE favored, like right now)

[@Rinta.H]

​@@IDestroyStuff Yes, he was checking if they were E0S1, its his statement after " that is a big differentiator". This implies the requirement of E0S0. You should check out that F2P account clear its around de 02:11:00 mark. It shows that 1.x dps feels shit, but when you actually make it, it feels kinda good Agreed 1.x unit will definitely feel like shit. In the future you might not even clear with a C6 1.x unit depending on the hp inflation. But isn't this the challenge of a live service game? Things will change usually for the worse combat wise for older units, this is a fact that won't change. I am sure there are people wanting to quit just cause of it, but when they return they are gonna feel even worse with the units released when they are not playing regardless of whether it helps 1.x unit or not.

[@davimanggala3452]

Well said

[@SerraAbyssAlisaris]

The 1.0 Roster had 3 5* Supports RM/Bronya/Silverwolf. The 2.0 Roster has 6 5* Supports HMC/Sparkle/Robin/Jiaoqiu/Sunday/Fugue - ALL the 2.0 Supports are worse then RM. Blade was called Mister 8 cycle since his Release. Like bro is still clearing at the same speed he was. No Shit Replacing 4 stars with Premium 5 Stars makes Powercreep look worse then it is.

[@dandyshark6094]

Sunday robin worse? Yeah they worse if they are in superbreak team than RUAN MEI who have synergy with superbreak team dumbass Im actually reading your comment seriously until that statement

[@RorekSkyfall]

Character powercreep isn't much of an issue to me. It's expected within gacha games. The important conversation is how the game is balanced around the powercreep. Structing the endgame to push the featured banner unit has always been predatory and problematic. The important part is whether the content is viable within reasonable expectations for all team compositions on at least one of the sides. Not a zero cycle clear in HSR's case but being able to 3 star within those 10 rounds. No I don't think older units should be able to clear on auto either. That's where some of the skill issues is coming into play, I feel. It doesn't feel good that older units are struggling and something needs to be done. I'm going to evoke the G word but Genshin didn't have that issue until later on. There were characters who powercrept previous units but it didn't matter because you could still clear the endgame because it was relatively easy with a built account. Which is where nuanced conversations should be had on the direction the game wants to go in terms of a challenging end game or not. Who the game is for, essentially. But things are different now. Hoyo and a lot of gacha games in particular lean on the side of using artificial difficulty (HP sponge and damage increase) in order to increase the challenge of content. It's why leveling and the early game feels more challenging because our units aren't built. What we should be encouraging them to go for is more mechanical difficulty based content. Playing around a set of mechanics is far more interesting and a fun challenge within games. It's also on you as the player to execute properly and feels much more fair. When you get defeated by mechanics most of the time, it's a problem you can assess and address. Characters in your roster then become usable tools to address these mechanics, which revitalizes older characters. It's a solved system within the turned based RPG genre so these gacha companies are being pretty lazy -- and ultimately greedy -- going down the route that they choose. There's exceptions like ZZZ borrowing from DMC's Blood Palace, which yes, is playing into artificial difficulty but it makes sense for that genre. Same with wuwa's hologram system. I'm a fan of how Arknights tackles this particular issue as well. We got a massive powercreep character in Wis'del but you don't have to use her. She'll make clearing stages much easier but you can still use older units and achieve the same results. This is ontop of their module system that buffs older operators and induces new mechanics to freshen up their kits.

[@ronald21ize]

I think the ones missing the point are the CCs including you, we didn't want baldy to tear Pokks down, we wanted him to attack his argument and let pokks know that what he said was stupid but you CCs take dessagrements too seriously to the point that you call it drama and would brake your relationships.

[@clay_widogast]

People play gacha games and expect it to not be predatory. It's about time you all realize it wont change and stop complaining or stop playing.

[@michaelakadap924]

Not only that, but imagine getting mad at whales. Like don’t they financially support the game allowing free to play people to continue playing? I mean, do these F2P people not realize that they wouldn’t be able to play if not for the whales? Crazy. They want their cake and eat it too. 😂

[@Kindi001]

daaaamn, didnt know HSR is stock market. i tought its only game 😂

[@dandyshark6094]

Its nothing burger, this whole drama wont event exist if the said person not starting war by saying something and then said "y'all misunderstand me" Just ask your english teacher how that tweet mean

[@michaelakadap924]

@@dandyshark6094 I kind of think this is all nonsense. Why do people care about some other random person’s opinion he’s nobody really important. OK, yeah he’s an influencer but like at the end of the day that really means nothing.

[@dandyshark6094]

​@ so true, but it is internet after all , people easily got offended, i understand how some mad because of how he make the sentence, i even think he intentionally make it like that to farm content, while waiting for 3.0 XD. in the end we just wasting time to that kind of guy, just let them be

[@DracoSlayer]

Saintontas ruined debates?!

[@failingartist3524]

Saint made gud and reasonable arguments tectone being a mediator doesn't work hint how he goes about it he gaslight saint back then he does pick a side

[@xelasneko]

7:05 Keeping this for reference.

[@low-keyvibin3189]

Mr.pokke just change the name to Mr.Lokke or something (loki) Mf cause war and mischief in gacha community by just one single short tweet after said that he doesn’t want drama this year anymore. We just have to wait and see his new f2p account proof or whatever his account manager will cook for him.(*uck me I guess😂)

[@pod27]

Saint's whole point was 1.x cant keep up which is dumb false but ppl wanna run with it just to make themselfs feel better for 1 - bad decisions; 2 - dont understand the game. I cleared MoC 12 Svarog with 1.X only (characters and LC's) and it was fine (Sampo still goat). Both sides fked up on explaining any point. The call you were in was even worse since no one stayed on topic. (Saint was also using Blade off type to "prove a point". Let that sink in) This whole "powercreep" issue is dumb as shit to talk about since Gachas, ALL gachas, suffer from this. Now HSR's is the fact that they are firing off characters with new mechanics TOO FAST and ppl are having a hard time keeping up. This is the only issue i see. The HP thing? MoC always gives you the tool to deal with it. HP "issue" is only for 0 cycles. Like i said at the start, i used Kafka 1.X DoT team with Kafka, Sampo, Asta and Bailu. Cleared it with 2 stars because i need to level up Asta and work on some traces. But what i wrote is pointless since ppl are still gonna go with narratives like its an "xyz" problem or "you are defending the company!". Pokke is right about the powercreep affecting you only if you let it. Casuals dont care about 0 cycles (i'm casual btw) and only play the game for the story/collection or have nothing better to do and this is a good "time waste".

[@ToukaVT]

Sorry, but Pokke never once tried to move the goal post and his reasonings were grounded in realistic expectations. Honestly Saint's points were very poor in terms of comparison and just general knowledge.

[@k-BlazeWW30]

😂 Connors that VxVFiction is the weirdest loser among them all he even loses to Glaivekiyo 😂 and gets shutdown by glaivekiyo's live chat 😂

[@dandyshark6094]

Hoyo community especially pokke already shill for the game, i do agree with some point of pokke but what pokke explaining is different with what other party talking about and question with yes or no answer , he suddenly yapping I fine with other game like arknight , they balance the game powercreep better

[@Lowkey_not_real]

Hail Pokke

[@MorinoTengu]

it feels like people are missing the fact that the game is not just about pulling better units they made the chacters to have own appeal as disign wise or story wise the argument completely ignore that

[@Lopaloos]

HSR is shit guys stop playing that crap, play PGR

[@КирилДончев-ы3у]

I agree that the argument with Mr. Pokke was poorly structured, 4 people approaching things from a different perspective was a big task, but quite honestly, I think you could have made the argument you wanted through the discussion. If I recall correctly, VxV Fiction brought up how characters don't feel nearly as good as they used even 2 months after release and you proceeded to talk over him, without letting him say his point. Even when E-Thin offered to explain you were like "Moving on". If you had listened to him back then you could have taken advantage of the moment and talked about the meta structure, but what's done is done. About Tectone going soft on Pokke, you don't need to chew out and destroy your friendships to get your points across, at the end of the day he was still the one that got Pokke and Saintontas to do a voice call. Yes, Tectone has admitted to being rough about how he expresses himself, but I think he is trying to improve, at least from my understanding.

[@hianfly]

Losers lose

[@virrre]

Saintontas says Wuwa has no powercreep because his "Jiyan is basically E0 and can clear ToA" while later saying he has "a couple of sequences unlocked" and signature weapon. Imagine saying your E2S1 Seele is "basically E0". Bro is delusional.

[@Savasvania]

He said he only had the first one unlocked for Jiyan, which only adds an additional E skill press. Most of Jiyan's damage is from his liberation, these are not comparable...

[@virrre]

@Savasvania Nah, he said he had "a couple of sequences". He wouldn't use plural if he's got just 1. However, he's still cooked for saying "basically E0" and meaning E1S1 regardless.

[@gygabytezgamin456]

U do realize you can save up to get 2 sequences for free?

[@virrre]

@gygabytezgamin456 You do realize 2 sequences cost the same for every character right? and that you have to whale like hell to get it for multiple? "My Cammelya is basically E0 cuz I bought the sequences for E2S1 instead of exchanging for pulls and the weapon doesn't count" It's like someone saving every pull in ZZZ since day 1 and somehow getting lucky to get M6 Miyabi as f2p and saying "my Miyabi is basically M0 cuz I got M6 for free" DELUSIONAL DELUXE

[@Alpharay17]

​@@virrreignoring the 2 dupes you can buy in the shop, WuWa has a lower pity and a 100% guarenteed weapon banner unlike Hoyo games. So for many f2p players having a limited 5 star and their weapon requires almost the same resources as just guarenteeing a character in Hoyo games. Plus the standard weapons have their own banner and you get tons of free standard pulls so even if you dont have a units signature weapon youll have a standard 5 star weapon for then to use (which on average is only 10 to 15% less effective than most sigs). So even a S1R1 Jiyan is something many f2p players could have in WuWa by just skipping 1 other 5 star. JC i have every unit, their weapon plus 1 copy of every standard 5 star weapon (except the broadblade) in WuWa and all ive paid for is the premium pass, WuWa welkin equivalent (its actual name escapes me atm) and another $20 each patch for the 2 $10 bundles. I guess some players dont realize just how prdatory hoyos gacha/monetization really is ss you can get the equivalent amount of stuff as you would in a Hoyo game in so many other gachas for a fraction of the resources/money.