The Art of Playtesting Commander Decks | EDHRECast 224

What lessons can we learn when playtesting a new deck? What lessons should we AVOID when playtesting a new deck? Which techniques are most helpful, or most misleading? Let's discuss one of the trickiest aspects of the deckbuilding process!
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[@SamuelKacerik]

So there is one very strange thing I sometimes do while goldfishing. I watch a Commander gameplay video. I imagine I am the 5th player (last in turn order) and when someone plays an answer, I imagine it's played on me. That way I very roughly get an idea what might happen during the game or what threats I can expect from random decks and I find out if I can handle those threats.

[@jackhumphries4692]

I might try this that's really smart

[@Y2kRito]

That's.... brilliant. Well I found my new way of playtesting.

[@commongentleman529]

We're all strange, you are just putting it to good use 👌

[@zjoaomx]

Do that as well 👍👍👍

[@gypsieking3280]

Fascinating

[@jdogbemple1]

Definitely guilty of setting up a four pod by myself when I first started playing commander. It’s how I learned to play before I went to play magic at the store for the first time. It definitely feels like you are in ‘80s training montage when you do it.

[@ryanbowen4526]

The real question is did you politic?

[@andrewsparkes6275]

Joey: "I can never keep pace...". Neither Matt nor even he himself even realising he just did a perfect walking/feet/shoes pun.

[@krazykilper]

I've spent hours building a deck on a deck building building website. Goldfish it about a hundred times. Sometimes I don't even buy the deck. The time spent was fun, and the money saved was priceless.

[@sirmoth3955]

The best part about that is when you build the deck, are hyped to play it, and then after goldfishing it 3 times you realize you don't like it and don't have to waste the money!

[@krazykilper]

@@sirmoth3955 It's a win win! 😊

[@warrentang7459]

What site do you use that lets you goldfish?

[@krazykilper]

@@warrentang7459 Tapped out.

[@Ezlo01221]

@@krazykilper hi new to commander, visited Tapped Out. i see its usefulness. question; what is goldfishing?

[@lokumo13]

I usually open up 4 tabs on Moxfield, each for a deck I have on the website already, and play them against each other.

[@BastionKid]

...

[@lokumo13]

@@BastionKid ?

[@Krunschy]

"What if they had a thoughtseize" is an excellent idea for a question to ask yourself when playtesting. I think similarly asking oneself what you would discard/exile from your hand ever so often gotta be just as valuable.

[@pauldyson8098]

For decades, goldfishing has been my "fidget"/ my way of releasing/relieving anxiety. While not proper "playtesting," it has the added benefit of helping me streamline mana base and mana curve: goldfish a deck 200 times, and you'll know if you have too many CiPT lands.

[@SSolemn]

I goldfish until turn 7 for at least 20 times… with that I see if I have enough mana to make it viable, and which cards feel like dead weight in my hands

[@miaschwartz1074]

it also is a great way to understand how a deck *wants* to play out given no interaction and understanding how the deck plays in the first place

[@marnixw8724]

Please, please, please, don't be afraid to proxy cards before you're sure you want/need them. I have recently seen multiple newer players at my LGS spend large amounts of money on a deck, and then realize during the first couple of games that: A. The card doesn't do what they thought it would; B. the card introduces play patterns that are not fun; C. The entire deck plays in a way they don't enjoy. It really broke my heart to see a super nice, enthusiastic guy take apart a deck that he put a lot of time, love and money in after playing it 3 times because he got some mechanics wrong, and generally the deck didn't play how he liked. An example of my own: I had a generic Tymna/Kamahl enchantment deck. I made it into a Myrkul deck. I'm very happy that I did not spend money on that before I played it a couple times, because after a couple of games I realized it plays much more combo-y and linearly than I like. I went back to Tymna+random green partner and am newly in love with how diverse and fun the deck is, doing different cool things every game.

[@ss3nm0dn4r8]

I bought all the nicol bolas cards only to realize id need to spend even more in order to fit them into a viable superfrends deck

[@RazgrizAce67]

8:10 Yes! Sequencing is super important when it comes to using your commander to its highest potential. Dividing deck into CMC less than your commander and cmc equal to or greater is really useful to think about if they synergize well or not turn by turn.

[@claygillman9351]

I totally agree with Dana about the testing of card draw and ramp through what you call goldfishing. I have figured that out with so many decks that I am getting down to 1-2 cards in hand quickly. I am ramping faster than my card draw will can keep up with. I need to make sure it is balanced. Nothing worse than having 7 mana up, and having nothing to play.

[@eskimoprime09]

53:55 I have definitely done that. Sometimes I'm busy on a Saturday night and don't get to play commander, but I still gotta scratch that itch, so I'll pick four of my decks and pit them against each other, get some good playtesting done at the same time. It's actually quite fun and a good mental exercise. You need to be able to, from the perspective of the deck you're currently piloting, separate the information that you *do* know from what you *should* know, and make the most optimal play from that.

[@marljevincalabia3746]

I think goldfishing helps you master your deck. helps you remember synergies and interactions of your cards. There are times when I play a deck i benched for some time and i just mess up many of my plays.

[@StormDunakin]

I think itd be neat for yall to build the same open commander without communicating about how you are each building it to eachother or using the internet. Then play eachother after a few weeks to see how different they are.

[@loganhodskins4786]

Thanks for the shoutout and all the great content!

[@christophknorr4635]

I use goldfishing to determine if I'm reliable to the things I want in the first three/four Turns because during this time you mostly face a relatively small amount of interaction. I think goldfishing can be really useful if you have Decks that need a special sequencing. In these cases goldfishing can be helpful to make sure that at least in theory you know how you have to play your Deck. I agree though that goldfishing can't determine how good your Deck is because your missing the interaction.

[@adoo765]

I cant belive you did it!!! Thank tou guys so much!!!!

[@valfreyja2107]

I play test on moxfield by playtesting the new deck I am trying out versus my favorite deck that I am very familiar with. It allows me to have an opponent that I can interact with and I dont have to think as hard to pilot the deck I am familiar with. It is super fun and helps so much

[@TaIathar]

I would like to add that it's also hard to playtest a counterspell deck without other players because how often are your opponents going to play things you want to counter?

[@Hexatomb]

Glistening oil!? IT ONLY TAKES ONE DROP!

[@Hexatomb]

🛢

[@screwthisin]

I'm now DJ Glistening Oil, playing Dubstep/EDM. It only takes one drop to get people on the dance floor!

[@grevedanko]

Dating advice from Dana! Wish I could smash the like button twice!

[@zachstrahan]

I like gold fishing turns 1-3ish. It’s a good test on how a deck mulligans, and develops its mana, and the table is usually pretty hands off from each other during those turns.

[@VagrantKing]

In Matt’s defense, I have also played a game and run around the table playing all sides. It’s actually pretty fun spending an hour getting mad at the you that’s running your other decks, then finding it hilarious that you’re winning when you switch seats 😂

[@Antare5]

Agreeing with a lot of the sentiment here that goldfishing is not a clear reflection of actual play...but I still do it anyway, treating it like practicing your build order in an RTS game. What do your earliest turns look like? I think a lot of what I'm looking for is echoed in some way by this episode but succinctly, the information I'm looking for is: A) consistency of mana base B) consistency of drawing usable ramp. (not just drawing ramp but how often does it provide colors I need when I need them or are they at CMC I can make use of them) C) how often am I getting draw spells in hand and what is my consistency of draw? How many draw effects are only letting me draw 1 extra card at a time or do I need more effects that draw a lot of cards at once? Are all my draw spells high on curve making my early game inefficient? D) How often does my deck, even without any interaction from other players, do absolutely nothing? (not having sac fodder for aristocrats, not having artifacts actually come up in an artifact deck etc. And if I have creatures that need to deal combat damage to do anything, especially a commander, how often am I drawing effects that make them reasonably evasive?)

[@mtgforest9087]

I had a similar issue when building Alibou and I had Indomitable Archangel in my deck, but soon realised it prevented me from equipping Basilisk Collar and Grafted Exoskeleton as well as using Halo Fountain to untap my creatures and draw a card. Now I run Leonin Abunas in my deck instead.

[@Jerhevon]

Tip: Halo fountain's untaps are part of the cost, not an effect with targeting. You can totally use activating the Fountain's abilities to untap your shrouded creatures just fine. :)

[@Fogshaper]

Things I like doing for testing before I first play an actual person: 1. During brewing, I play on the playtest simulator. This shows me routinely which cards just aren't good in the deck. 2. I run out the enitre deck in piles of 7 and see which hands I'd hold. This shows me routinely which cards suck in opening hands. 3. Once built, I goldfish under certain rules. Examples: "Can I reliably cast my commander on turn 4" / "Can I reliably execute my combo while holding one counterspell?" / "On which turn do I reliably get to X power on the board?" - This shows me if I my balances in terms of draw and all of that are fine. 4. I also tend, with creature-based decks, play into a turn 4/5 setup, assume that someone wipes the board and see if my deck is capable of rebuilding here. I like doing that. That usually tells me the basic stuff I have to get right before throwing the deck into a pod. Obviously, some things you only learn while actually playing the deck into different pods, but... you know. These things let me find little mistakes in the deckbuilding I can just erase. That'll also improve the quality of the games I'll play with the deck.

[@giovannishepard653]

Matt @ 5:00 - "what turn are you trying to win with this deck?" Matt @ 41:00 - "I think if you're just playing a deck by yourself very rarely are you learning anything helpful." Big thunk.

[@donvielenio8956]

I'm with Matt, Goldfishing is overrated. I'd rather Playtest against other Decks of mine, playing all 4 of them at once. Better data.

[@miaschwartz1074]

Meanwhile I will disagree with you. Goldfishing is an excellent way to understand how your deck *wants* to play out without any for of interaction and is how someone like me, who plays competitive 1v1 magic learns how playpatterns in a deck function

[@PawzBrownMTG]

Great video Gentlemen thanks for making this informative show it definitely helps new & older player's those cards that you show off in Challenge the stats 👍. KEEP STAYING PAWZITIVE GUYS 👍😉

[@patches.742]

Talking about thoughtseize as a corner case made me wonder, does anyone run discard cards in commander (not self discard)? Has anyone tried this?

[@BFG93]

Having played grave consequences in syr Konrad and its bomb! Theres another similar but as good thats X costed too

[@GrinningFeline]

Missed triggers is something I’m trying to work on in my Lord Windgrace landfall.

[@JonLeitheusser]

I have a Silumgar deck I love (and is particularly effective), but I'd love to see you do a deck tech on your deck!

[@Dubi264]

I've found playtesting with other people can be a great way to cut pet cards and such. You get to scratch the itch of trying something out in the deck and also get firsthand experience of how bad it might be. Especially if you're like me and have a hard time cutting down to 100, you can just let yourself play the bad but fun cards the first couple games and then cut them later.

[@CrabBaskets]

I would summarize that playtesting is a progression, you get reps in and revise and play out the deck effectively to get the deck to where you want it to be. A take away that I am getting from the video, though not explicitly stated, I should consider goldfishing the deck as much as I do playing out the deck. I tend to just play the deck as I brewed it and revise it as I get games in, and goldfishing could help minimize the amount of revising Im doing as well as give a superficial look at how the deck will play out.

[@Torsav]

Best part of Friday!

[@SonOfSodium]

Play testing gonti like decks lead to me just making sure they can resolve the opponent spell cast as much as possible while protecting the commander, in gonti specifically that meant anything that could flicker and ways to protect him with ramp to recast and cast the stuff, how much? Yes. Just maximize advantage tbh so when I'm paired, whatever it is is active. Also, even more important is game knowledge. If you play that kinda deck, absolutely be versed in cards pls, it will save everyone you included allot of time. Love Gonti tho and love to see him get the mention

[@RazgrizAce67]

Goldfishing is super useful and if you're worried about not having interaction, a lot of times I pretend that my opponent played a boardwipe or removes a key piece and then play out how my deck responds. Of course playing against opponents is more useful to learn but goldfishing to the point that your deck becomes threatening is very useful.

[@jibb8545]

You guys should do a whole episode on sandbagging your deck. I'm the worst at knowing when the right time to play something is.

[@NewOldEBM]

I feel like Matt's point wasn't inherently wrong (ie: goldfishing is not a correct simulation of the game) but I also feel like he took on a weirdly defensive "goldfishing is shit" stance when it sounds like the other two didn't disagree directly. I'm with Dana here, goldfish, but do it knowing what you're looking for. I like seeing how my decks "unpack" - make sure I can get to T5-6 and not have an empty hand and/or no ramp. Goldfishing is "perfect" for that, and since I started doing it I feel like making the 3+ card swaps I tend to detect (as well as rando sequencing lessons) is 100% worth the time investment. Plus, how is it not hard/fun to just whack on a podcast or something and bash out a few quick hands?

[@movingtriangle8527]

One way ive been play testing is using my physical deck against one of my ddcks on tappedout/moxfield and doing it that way. Saves some space

[@peadrianlastname]

The first game all my new commander decks play is definitely against 3 of my other decks with me piloting all 4 lol. Gotta make sure they run before you show anyone else

[@jeanmarais337]

great topic

[@bwilkins02]

When I goldfish, I set up a 2 man pod and play against my cat 😂 playing my decks against each other helps me see how my interactions work.

[@brendans1983]

I presume the cat just laid over the cards you weren't using and became the opponent 🤣

[@RichardQuorvisGardner]

So many people are using Library of leng with Faldorn, Dread Wold Herald. It doesn't work with her as the discard for a cost is neither an effect or a spell. in 12% of Faldorn decks. That's my challenge the stats lol. it was even in the upgrade for Faldorn on the Command Zone.

[@ZypherWildfire]

For decks that require "opponents" to function, I pull out my other commander decks and either use 2/3 of the deck or I'll play an impartial game of 4-player commander by myself. The thing is, I tend to always win when I do that, so maybe the stats aren't that great... 🤔 PS: I have a personal Goldfish playtest method where I assign cumulative damage, track damage dealt, and apply "destroy" effects each turn, up to ten turns, to test my decks ability to sustain, "take over," or bounce back.

[@psychozen7169]

I gold fish first for mana draws, then I gold fish for draw spells and removel. Then depending on colors I gold fish for interaction cards. I do this because I want every three to five draws a land. I wants every 5 cards to get a draw or ramp spell. One out of 4 removal or interaction. I do this because my playgroup is no tutors accept fetch lands. Your not going to be able to recreate gameplay because everyone accesses threat different based on known information. One thing gold fish does teach is patience.

[@1ntegrator]

Another thing goldfishing can do is assign a velocity to your deck. Decks that can win without interaction around a similar turn are a good guess to pair up (of curse there are exceptions)

[@reedpadgett9056]

Am I the only one that straight up plays a new deck against another deck of mine? Like plays the decks against each other to play test

[@NightOfCrystals]

I do this all the time. It’s more realistic and helpful to test this way.

[@JNB6037]

38:35 my Sivriss and Cloakwood Hermit was so hard to goldfish with having the political aspect of what my opponents would pay life for and what I would get back from them

[@UnreasonableOpinions]

Goldfishing does have some limited use - if your deck doesn't even work when you do this, it's time to scrap and overhaul. It's also okay if you just want to play your first 3-4 turns and see how well or badly you built the manabase or such. After that, it's just magical christmasland scenarios - in what game will you not eat at least one removal by the end of turn 4?

[@90kalos1]

A challenging the stats point. Viridian Revel isn't play enough, with so many decks making a lot of treasures this card can net you a ton of draw

[@thrillhouse4151]

I will solitaire two decks together, I do that all the time, it’s so sad, but I enjoy it. I just repeat the process over and over again til I find which cards I don’t like and switch em out.

[@skruffytiger2002]

I've played four decks against each other XD It was fun!

[@througtonsheirs_doctorwhol5914]

Goldfishing : if you are doing an virtual opponent turns like thinking ok there he gets his curve on a 4 or more on the d6... and the spells / counter spell, damage, you think logically what would happen... then reffer to it like a"marlin fishing" game with a lone deck could be worthy!! I think that'S what some people do...

[@M3WT-va]

I'm with Matt, I run around a table with four of my own decks

[@avinashkai6604]

Lightning greaves should only go in mid level aggressive decks that aren't trying to go super fast. My favorite example is rakdos lord of riots. He doesn't want to do anything but hit opponents and thats IF your swinging with him. What you really want is the mana reduction he offers and being able to protect him is essential considering the hoops you have to jump through just to even be able to cast him. I also use this example because most rakdos decks I've seen never intentionally cast a spell targeting rakdos. If nothing else it should be in a deck that need not target its commander sence that's the most important piece in a deck (in theory) so protecting it over other things reguardless of how important they are is a no Brainer.

[@PALIGames]

if I really need to test a deck I will play it against 3 other of my decks by myself if I cant test it against other players. Goldfishing only really helps the first few turns to see how the deck flows in my opinion

[@DoctorOctoconapus]

sigiled starfish is absolutely not a card to remove from Elminster. It helps you decide whether to +2 or -3 a huge spell for tons of flyers

[@RogueoftheRepublic]

When I conceptualize a deck I fill in the cards I have and then print off images and text ofthe cards I am missing. Fortunaely the people I play accepth this as long as they are told before hand about it being a playtest and about the proxies.

[@TheFirstTriplefife]

I like to shuffle my deck multiple times, multiple ways until I'm ready to start goldfishing. When I'm ready I get a spindown die and start counting turns. I play it all out until I see where I'm at at turn 10. Sometimes I feel real fishy and I have the board wipe every 5th and 8th turn as a board wipe will likely happen 1-2 times in a game.

[@astrowerm]

When Joey said mhmm it looked like it came from sheldon's still lmao

[@Jerhevon]

Re: Sigiled Starfish. Starfish seems in the realm of a pet card. And in the realm of an early play that can smooth out your game. That free scry on demand has its uses. And if you're drawing it late game... why didn't you scry it to the bottom of your deck instead?

[@felixj.alexandre9880]

Couldn't help but notice you didn't mention TCG Player and CardKingdom as sponsors. Did you guys get other sponsors?

[@erichorton3901]

I couldn't disagree with Matt more on gold fishing. Yes it is borderline useless for a deck that thrives on interaction, but with how rarely I get to actually get together with a play group, gold fishing has helped me learn more intra-deck interactions and sequencing tricks than any other form of play in multiple formats. It has also helped me increase my speed of play on long turns thanks to getting in rep with complex interactions. For me, its not about learning WHEN I can go off, but HOW. Or what big things the deck is capable of doing.

[@santiagofrias3125]

Goldfishing? I always called it shadow boxing 😂

[@jamesswaine1999]

I have maintained my second ever edh deck since 2011 and i still find myself goldfishing it, i am always looking for whats not performing as intended within the current general feel of the deck

[@TheMaskedHero]

Wait, do people not run four of their own decks against each other at a table?

[@karickfalconstein1670]

Ive play against self several times its fun

[@kazeinu0151]

Re: goldfishing. Play your deck vs another one of your decks of similar power level. Play both decks to the best of their ability.

[@ficklefox2171]

Wow I'm early... hey guys!

[@omahonda]

42:08 Dana is so hilarious! How does Joseph not laugh at that joke?

[@MrWnw]

Can someone sum up? How can I play test? I think the video says to play the deck and see. But the goal of playtasting should be to save money buying cards...

[@CatManThree]

This is a lot of "is goldfishing actually helpful" and almost none of "what can you do instead"

[@BrodyTwice]

What was that syr Konrad art!?

[@througtonsheirs_doctorwhol5914]

Lightning Greaves... you cannot target it either in any way... so i don'T like it. It's like the survival total petrification spell in DRAGON QUEST mangas : Borasu was it>? The grandfather of Fly the young knight cast the spell to make everything stone, and unkillable. But hey they can't escape afterwards either... Gottabe a truly self-contained character to warrant it

[@AlistairZands]

I have a simple and fool proof method of testing: I don't. Leeroy Jenkins all the way, baby.

[@ComstarAgent]

I’d rather play Soul-Guide Lantern than Grave Consequences

[@zwolf4118]

We need a hot takes video

[@MalteLewandowski]

The problem with playtesting more casual decks in commander is, that you actually would need a very big sample size to make any valid claims, if somethings works or not. Otherwise it could be just variance (in one way or the other) - given the nature of the 100 card singleton format. This is less the case for very optimized or cedh decks, as they run a lot of tutors and very streamlined plan (e.g., a lot of the cards have the same function).

[@swain1153]

Idk why they made Sarevok so bad. Is there any way to build him to make him playable? His art is so good

[@abrahamdrinkin2534]

Does anyone use XMage?

[@andrewsparkes6275]

42:30 - Was that a stray "fuck" from Matt? Dana really got him, heh.

[@dangottsacker2061]

Goldfishing is playtesting.

[@donnydaytona5816]

Sportsball

[@copperfield42]

I test my deck in some simulator

[@Nr4747]

"When does a deck win" is - imho - a completely useless measurement of power for casual (read: non-CEDH) decks because it's impossible to answer. My mid power Wort, Boggart Auntie deck recent won a game on turn 5 because I got Warren Instigator into play on turn 2, nobody had an answer for him and I got to attack an opponent without a blocker 3 times in a row which put Goblin Recruiter into play which allowed me to stack my deck and get Muxus and a bunch of other powerful goblins into play aswell. So, should I now assume that "this deck wins on turn 5" ? No, because I won't always have Warren Instigator and Goblin Recruiter in my first 9 drawn cards *and* somebody might have a removal spell *and* every opponent might have a blocker. It's much more useful to just say "this deck's an 8 because - while only running goblins, so no Imperial Recruiter and no Moggcatcher - it does actually run some of the most powerful goblin synergies aswell as Vampiric Tutor and Demonic Tutor."

[@therealmerf]

One word : Cockatrice... (This freeware is taboo for goldfishing in the community, so sad 😔)

[@silaxandraproductions]

Love the content, love the discussions, love the hosts. HATE that intro song, its SO grating and just blasts into my brain. I just wish it was a softer instrument blasting that melody

[@StrifeTrinity]

Ty Matt goldfishing is boo

[@Crypt4l]

How is this an hour podcast, you just build the deck, play the deck, change the deck, repeat step 2 followed by 3^^

[@michaeltaylor4492]

If you don't want to watch it, nobody is forcing you.

[@jeffe2267]

So the guy who can't figure out how to play Aristocrats says that goldfishing is overrated? Lol, sure, makes sense.