The Ascent of Man to God: Vatican II & the Hermeneutic of Deification. Micheal Carroll

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[@thecatholicman]

www.amazon.com/dp/B0D6HSCNZT?binding=paperback&ref=dbs_dp_rwt_sb_pc_tpbk

[@catholiclove]

I turely needed to here this thank you.

[@johnseaberg5028]

Thank you Robert. Good information 🕊️

[@sheiladumigan451]

Thank you very much 🙏

[@gerrymccarthy9568]

All we need in the novus ordo is for priests to preach on the Real Presence. That’s it, period. The lack of this preaching has lead to people not believing it is really HIM they are receiving. Five minutes after the end of mass, church empty. In my daily experience, almost NO ONE stayed to give thanks for the greatest thing that will ever happen to them.

[@Linkgt]

I implore you to do the research into how many prayers were removed from the novus ordo, as well as how the focus went from sacrifice to a meal time…please do the research. It’s more than just focusing on the real presence. Wake up.

[@karlheven8328]

It is not that simple to say. The mass should be sacred and every aspect of the liturgy should conform to the liturgical sense of 2000 year tradition

[@M5guitar1]

The Novus Ordo is not in conformance to Sacrosanctum Concilium. The NO Mass cut out at least 70% of the prayers that existed from Apostolic times and removed the sense that the Mass is a representation of sacrifice on Calvary to the Father. Bring back the altar rails, get rid of the laity on the altar, and forbid Communion in the hand. Last weekend I stopped a woman sneaking out with a Host in her hand!!

[@karlheven8328]

@@M5guitar1 🙏🏻🙏🏻🙏🏻♥️

[@linenonthehedgerow741]

@@Linkgt If you listen, the person in the video supports the Latin Mass and states that he attends.

[@kaylenehousego8929]

Blessings and appreciation from Sydney Australia .

[@edwardmarculewicz5140]

Awesome! Bless Poland!

[@jared5329]

Amen! Thank you so much for posting this, Robert! I was actually just yesterday talking with some friends about Michael Carroll's book (no coincidences)! This is so important for us to remember, especially as traditional Catholics today. His book is the most important book on the spiritual life I've ever read (in terms of practicality). The Holy Ghost was truly guiding the Council to teach this way of Christian Perfection, but the devil has tried very hard to cover it up (getting both modernists and "traditionalists" to do his dirty work). I highly recommend this book to any Catholic serious about acquiring peace of soul in these troubled times.

[@Linkgt]

Why quotes around traditionalist?

[@jared5329]

@@Linkgt Because they are traditional in name only, and are commonly referred to as such. A truly traditional Catholic would not oppose the Magisterium of the Church like these fake traditional Catholics do. Real traditionalists are obedient and follow the Three Ways of the spiritual life.

[@Linkgt]

@@jared5329you know v2 is pastoral and did not define new dogmas right? Riddle me this. Do we follow Fr James Martin and his sodomy-friendly preaching? Would you attend a Mass by Fr James Martin and listen to his sermon? Would you take your children there?

[@Linkgt]

@@jared5329you do not obey in sin or error. Please conservatives, stop abusing the virtue of obedience.

[@karlheven8328]

​@@jared5329Obedience is only unlimited with regards to Christ. Our highest obedience is to him. Only after that comes the Pope, Bishops etc. Obedience to Christ is very important, that is why we owe obedience to superiors, not some other reason.

[@WT-Sherman]

Instead of the goofy Synod on Synodality we’re currently mired in, we need a Vatican III to clear out the fog of erroneous ideas that popped up from “The Spirit of the Council”.

[@ThruTheUnknown]

Definitely gonna check out the book seems like it will be a good read. Thanks

[@joeberkemeier5904]

So basically the miss steps in the Church since VII can be laid at the feet of those clinging to tradition. Not a word of blame for those who gutted our sanctuaries and placed man at the center of our worship. Got it

[@jared5329]

Did you even watch the video? When did he say such a thing? His whole point is that we need to revive the traditional mode of the Christian life, that is, the Three Ways. He is not blaming those who adhere to Tradition. He is blaming those radical "traditionalist" reactionaries (mostly online) who stir up people's passions and take away their peace - all based off dodgy evidence, misunderstandings, and outright lies about the Pope, the Council, and the Mass. Those modernists who gutted our sanctuaries were wicked men, but this video is not about them.

[@Linkgt]

Conservatives LOVE this stance. All the blame is on us traditionalist. If only we were more charitable! If only we realized the v2 documents are good and that it’s the interpretation that is bad! Conservatives NEVER blame the modernist, Bergoglio for closing thousands of TLMs, jimmy Martin for spreading sodomy, none of them. So tired of this.

[@thecatholicman]

@@Linkgtthat is deflection. the topic is the council

[@karlheven8328]

exactly. They sidestep the contentious issues of doctrinal nature that actually matter by praising without any critical reception V II. This is a suicidal attitude​@@Linkgt

[@ChristendomAwake]

The person speaking in the video actually states that there is confusion in the post-conciliar Church.

[@Linkgt]

The three stages of the spiritual life are in Vatican 2…but do ANY modernist priest preach the 3 stages of the spiritual life??? THE ONLY PRIEST IVE HEARD MENTION THIS are traditional priest from FSSP/ICKSP and traditional Franciscans. All modernist can talk about is the heretical Buddhist in hiding “the seven storey mountain” and the extremely questionable divine mercy/medjugory. Give me a break…

[@thecatholicman]

Well that is that, you seem to know all priests

[@ameliaoc]

It sounds like a wonderful book and I will get it. I think the documents of V2 and the implication of V2 are in reality two different things and I suggest that dichotomy is the root cause of our current crisis in the church.

[@dermotquigley356]

I would agree that if someone wants to criticize the Documents of Vatican II, they should do so after having read them. As a Roman Catholic, whose parents gave up on the NO and went back to the TLM before I was born, I was brought up with the TLM and catechized with Cardinal Heenan's old Westminster Penny Catechism. As a teenager, the good priests of the SSPX, brought me through St. Pius V's Catechism of the Council of Trent. That is the Catechism I use along with the Douay-Rheims Bible. There is an impression in this Video, that those of us brought up on Trent, the Fathers of the Church, the lateran Councils, Vatican I etc don't have as good a unity with God, as those in the Synodal Church. St. Therese of Lisieux, lived and died without reading the documents of Vatican II. So did, St. Joan of Arc, St. Maximilian Kolbe, St. Oliver Plunkett , Sts John Fisher and Thomas More, St. Bernadette, St. Pius V, St. Catherine of Siena and St. Pius X. None of these read the Vatican II documents. I believe that their Union with God is just as Good as those canonized after Vatican II. With regard to Medugorge there is no need to worry. It is a fake unapproved apparition. It has zero significance in my spiritual life. Catholics are not spending enough time studying and praying about the perennial binding public revelation of the Church, as revealed to the Apostles, by the Holy Ghost, on Pentecost Sunday. In a famous 2017 interview on RAI UNO, the Holy Father let slip what he really thought about Medugorge. He stated that the Holy Virgin Mother of God, was NOT a postwoman turning up at the same time everyday with mail. Case closed. For those who wish to follow secure private revelation, I recommend Guadeloupe, Lourdes and Fatima. They all have papal approval.

[@WT-Sherman]

Not sure why he believes that the internet channels have so much influence. Apparently, there some folks in the Vatican who agree with him. I think it’s overblown.

[@MrTzarBomb]

Ironic title. The book Prometheus outlines how Vatican2’s theology is specifically man centered (humanistic).

[@ChristendomAwake]

It is actually spirituality which is taught through rote scholastic manualism which is man centred spirituality. This is what spirituality became all the way through to Vatican II, and was a side product of 700 years of scholasticism. The pure path is union with God through the neo-Platonic lineage. This is the God centred spirituality which has passed through the Church. This more rightly contains infused contemplation and passive purifications. As such, the God centred spirituality is actually in Vatican II.

[@michaelj6453]

@@ChristendomAwake so the Catholic Church has been wrong for 700 years? I knew I should have converted to Orthodoxy. Damn.

[@karlheven8328]

This video did not say anything substantive about Vatican II . While the 3 ways of the spiritual life are important this sort of misses the point or does not adress the key contentious issues arouns Vatican II being religious 'freedom', collegiality of bishops, ecumenism, new mass, standing of laymen, church vs the world, states, modern communications etc. So I feel the criticism he leveled at Traditionalists might or might not be accurate, but I feel this is certainly not helpful to accuse them of something without talking their arguments at face value. This is cheap polemics and thus disingenous, or is it not? But to be fair I have not read the book

[@ChristendomAwake]

Fr. Thomas Crean and Dr. Alan Fimister (in Integralism: A Political Theology:; and Dr. Thomas Pink (in Dignatatis Humanae: Continuity after Leo XIII) have proven that Dignatatis Humanae is fully in line with 2000 years of Church teaching. The problem was that their work was cancelled by the SSPX and traditionalists. So the point about religious freedom is not true. In fact, Dr. Joseph Shaw stated that this issue is now cleared up.

[@Gigi-ww8ke]

I recently started attending the TLM, and I can say that I feel the real presence of Christ, and a much more reverent worship. I have researched the TLM Order of the Mass, and wow, so much more reverent than the NO mass. I don't like the way the Eucharist is handled in the NO, and I suspect that is why many Catholics don't believe in the real presence. Comparing the two, the TLM wins hands down for me, and I doubt I can attend a NO in future.

[@linenonthehedgerow741]

The author attends Latin Mass, but is stating that the traditional movement is not following the traditional spirituality.

[@juliang3995]

I have Catholic friends, some attend/work at NO, other Byzantine, a few of us TLM traddies. One thing that was mentioned, a traditional friend who often goes to the NO man reckons that it is difficult to contemplate or rather enter into contemplation, because the priest is always talking.....rather the movements of the NO do not usually allow for this kind of liberty, as also praying the Rosary too (I mean you certainly could! But it would be a little more awkward...).

[@terrymcdonnell9206]

I'm confused ?

[@linenonthehedgerow741]

The author is pointing out that the traditional movement is not following the traditional spirituality.

[@michaelj6453]

This made no sense to me. The objections to Vatican II from traditionalists are all doctrinal. Reading mystical theology into the council documents doesn't answer any objection I have ever heard raised by them. In fact, that could be done with works of non-Catholic spirituality just as well. I wonder how rigorous the thinking behind this video really is.

[@linenonthehedgerow741]

You may not be aware that three traditionalists have already cleared up SSPX and trad objections to Dignantatis Humanae (on religious liberty). The academics are all traditionalists themselves. Fr. Thomas Crean and Dr. Alam Finimster (in Integralism: A Political Theology), alongside a separate piece of research by Dr. Thomas Pink of King's College London (in Dignatatis Humanae: Continuity after Leo XIII) have all conclusively demonstrated that Dignatatis Humanae is fully in line with 2000 years of Church teaching. They were instantly cancelled by traditionalist vloggers (apart from Tim Gordon) and also cancelled by the SSPX. Why? The traditionalist internet influencers have a lot of credibility and money to lose if they are proven that they are wrong. The SSPX can't afford to lose more members as their Seminaries are too expensive to maintain. Any truth that comes forward is instantly cancelled, so that average traditionalists have little access to truth so that they may be able to discern for themselves. Dr. Joseph Shaw, Chairman of the LMS (formerly a fellow of Oxford University) has stated that these studies have concluded the arguments, and does not understand why they have not been accepted by traditionalists. As for this video, union with God and Christian perfection is central, both of which only ever pertain to the unitive stage of the three stages of the spiritual life. In short, if someone has not gone through both dark nights (senses and spirit) and entered into the unitive stage, then they have not attained to either union with God nor Christian perfection. The work of the person in the video has been supported by Bishops who support the Latin Mass. No doctrinal error was recorded within the work. This person has also been cancelled by traditionalists. Only evil cancels truth. These are the facts.

[@michaelj6453]

@@linenonthehedgerow741 Conclusively demonstrated? This is inappropriate language for a topic that hinges on semantics. Not only have you not grasped the meaning of the objections, but you have misunderstood the nature of the objections if you think there can be any such thing as "conclusive proof". There can be opinions with greater or lesser authority. Nothing more.

[@linenonthehedgerow741]

@@michaelj6453 The SSPX went silent when both studies came out. The studies are conclusive. These people are the top Catholic intelligentsia in the traditional movement, and all are products of Oxford and Cambridge. The problem with the traditional movement is that there are next to no Catholic intelligentsia. This is about all there is.

[@sheiladumigan451]

Jesus Jesus Jesus 🙏❤️

[@Nonofurbzness]

No peace at the novus ordo. Communion and the hand and focus on self. No sense of offering worship to God

[@thecatholicman]

Not all masses are celebrated like that

[@Nonofurbzness]

@@thecatholicman the liturgy is distracting and the entire set up is missing a fundamental that was in place in order to focus on God.

[@johnseaberg5028]

@@NonofurbznessWell, that’s your opinion. The Jews were consumed with 631 mandates and Jesus reminded them that what’s in your heart matters as much as

[@Nonofurbzness]

@@johnseaberg5028 what does that have to do to with anything. The problem is that the 1960 new mass led people to believe they could be Catholic any way they want. Give em an inch they take a mile. The new mass is noisy and distracting and most people get sloppy with their faith or introduce silly things that have nothing to do with worship and then they are offended if the priest actually preaches real faith that convicts them and makes them look inward. It’s a mess in the US and it’s very difficult to relate to novus ordo Catholics who think the church got rid of teachings that have never been removed.

[@johnseaberg5028]

@@Nonofurbzness Just your elitist opinion sometimes exhibited by Trad elites. I have no issue with Traditional but to condemn the NO is not up to you.

[@MJK2600]

Having union with God does not make one like God! In a world so imbued with secularism and sentimental humanitarianism we need to be careful with terms, concepts, and language because if we are not delusion can be cast as something it is not: reality! There is some very convincing evidence that many of the changes made post-V2 especially related to the liturgy and the theology supporting that liturgy (a la Cardinal Roach) shifted the focus from Christ and his sacrificial act to the amorphous the "People of God". Not so ironically, in the almost 1960 plus years of the Church, many real saints lived experience reflect the three ways of spiritual development purgative, the illuminative, and unitive and they did so without needing the spirit and/or documents of Vatican 2. As you say, though we can't go back to the 1500s, let's be careful thinking us moderns have a corner on much of everything.

[@linenonthehedgerow741]

This is a false statement that you have made. St. Augustine and others state that "God became man, so that man could become God'. This statement is also in the Catechism. It is called deification or theosis. Having Union with God does make a person like God. The three stages of the spiritual life is enshrined within the Summa Theological and codified in fullness by the Doctors of the Church (including Gregory the Great and St. Augustine), and more recently by Fr. Garrigou-Lagrange, and Fr. Juan Arintero. This means that all the terms, concepts, and language (as you put it) is necessary. Union with God equates to Christian perfection. Pope Pius XII is clear that this imposition of Christian perfection is a direct mandate from God, and is therefore non-negotiable. St. Francis de Sales states that not to believe in attaining to Christian perfection (union with God) is heresy. All the terminology is in Vatican II. I am afraid that you statement does not hold water, because most traditionalists have never heard of the three fold path, and this is because of poor quality traditionalist leadership. Vatican II is hence needed to remind Catholics that union with God and Christian is non-negotiable. In Novo Millenio Ineunte Pope John Paul II reminds Catholics that it is necessary to go through the dark nights (he even mentions painful nights). It is the trads that are off here, not Vatican II or John Paul II. It isn't about the saints going through the purgative, illuminative, and unitive stages, it is about every living catholic going through them now.

[@ChristendomAwake]

Actually you are wrong. Union with God does actually does mean becoming like God.... Not exactly like God, but we are allowed to attain to perfection as much as is possible in this life. As the other post said, St. Augustine said "God became man, so man could become God. It is called Theosis or Deification.

[@MJK2600]

@@ChristendomAwakeActually I am correct. First off, theosis is a term used in the tradition of Orthodox theology to refer to the participation of the human person in the life of God. The key is not becoming God but participating in His Grace. Huge difference! Secondly, I am not Orthodox and take issue with some of the emphasis placed and inferences made in its theology.

[@linenonthehedgerow741]

@@MJK2600 Yes, but you are using semantics, because you don't like what is being said, despite it being correct. The notion that Orthodox and Romans do not share the same spiritual path is wrong, but it is the prayer techniques that vary in achieving union with God that differ. Deification amounts to the same path. Ironically, the Orthodox would disagree with your appraisal of their tradition.

[@MJK2600]

@@linenonthehedgerow741 Totally disagree! Man can participate in Divine Grace because of the sacrificial love of Christ on the Cross. Man cannot and should not pretend that in this world he can become as God. That is hubris and egoism -- it is foolhardy and "not the God of your First Communion but your expanded Ego."