The Awful Consequences Of Raising Your Child Vegan - Max Lugavere

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Chris and Max Lugavere discuss why raising your baby vegan might be considered child abuse. Why does Max Luagevere think raising your child vegan is child abuse? What core nutrients do developing children need that vegans lack according to Max Lugavere? What is Max Lugavere's problem with the factory farming of animals?
#vegan #childhood #children
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[@ChrisWillx]

Hello you legends. Watch the full episode with Max here - kzbin.info/www/bejne/ppi8aKd7p8qjeqMsi=2fW5QDojepBl_Z2_. Get 20% discount on your Mud/Wtr subscription & freebies at mudwtr.com/modernwisdom

[@FilipinaVegana]

Veganism is NOT a diet. There is NO SUCH thing as a "vegan diet", because veganism is purely a moral stance against the undue use and abuse of animals in any way, such as parading them in a circus or zoological park, stealing their milk or eggs, and of course, needlessly slaughtering them and feeding on their bloody carcasses. Therefore, if you equate veganism with a DIET, then you have absolutely no idea of what you speak!

[@patrickaramouni5599]

Hi Chris .. I'd appreciate it if you can Bring someone on your podcast that is actually qualified to talk about Nutrition. Most people get it wrong when it comes to veganism due to the emotional connection that they have with food.. " You can't reason someone out of something that they weren't reasoned into".. does that ring a bell? ;)

[@joshgoldstein8309]

Bring earthling Ed on

[@KevinLuna]

Yesss

[@murphysrevenge9650]

Earthling Zombie

I generally see a very distorted view of what veganism is in these discussions. I understand why (there are some crazy vegans out there), but also it feels a bit unfair to veganism. It bothers me that usually these conversations are well backed up by science and facts but when it comes to veganism it’s very anecdotal and very emotional. As a vegan I do agree that historically civilisations have thrived on both plant and animal products, and I pray for the day where we can get animal products in a truly harmless way (both for the animals and the environment). However, I do have the privilege of education and time to be able to adapt a diet to my ethical views. I don’t know if I’m eating the MOST optimal diet in the world but frankly, most people eat tremendously WORSE than I do. Suddenly everyone is an expert on nutrition when talking about veganism, but then you go and see what they actually eat and it isn’t short of terrible. If the discussion is about the most optimal diet in the world, there is still a lot of research to be done but I do reckon it probably resembles a Mediterranean/paleo diet or something like that. But veganism has nothing to do with that, and the vegans that claim that a vegan diet is the best diet for humans are totally missing the point. I choose to do this for the animals so as long as I can live a relatively normal and healthy life (which I do), I will continue to do so. Again, I can’t wait for the advent of lab produced foods and other alternatives to animal farming (which yes Chris I agree it’s “holocausty”), but for now i am glad I can align my ethical views with a diet that provides me everything that I need. I do hope, as well, that even though it is very hard to find people that aren’t extremely passionate about this topic, we could hear a more nuanced discussion about veganism. I know this is a topic often linked with a certain type of “person” and certain types of worldviews, but truly a lot of us (who aren’t as loud on the internet) aren’t radical left leaning ideology-driven people; we just want to live a life where we harm less animals and that’s it.

[@1282louise]

Great comment. Althouvh i wpuld bever want lab food. I believe with fermented foods en variety within plantbasef food and seevegatables would give you enough.

[@JakeWoken]

Although I'm not a vegan (far from it tbh), I do admire vegans because you practice what you preach (which is A LOT more than most of us can honestly say). That being said, I find a few points I don't agree with veganism: - Animals: yes, I think we all agree the current system is not fair and should be changed (I'm all for it). But veganism doesn't come without animal killing unless you only consider a sentient life a cow, etc. Crops are fumigated and all those little bugs and insects die in the process of having plants available for consumption. - You pray for lab produced products, but you're missing (IMHO) the very point of the video which is: nutrition is SO complex that we can't just think in terms of having the "components", because there are so many interactions between them and so much we don't know it is almost impossible to recreate the healthy nutrition nature provides us. All that said, I really do admire vegans because they put others first and make the sacrifices that come with that. Awesome to read your views on the matter without fanatism.

[@MarcusUnread]

@@1282louise Why not lab grown/produced meat? What about precision fermentation with dairy which already exists? At first hearing “lab grown meat” may sound stark and garners an “eww!” reaction but if you stop and think about it why would the reaction be “I’ll never eat that!” Virtually no one hunts let alone kills and processes their own animals for food, which to me seems far more “ick” than growing a boneless chicken breast or steak in a lab. Basically all the meat and dairy that people eat currently is awful and riddled with puss, blood, abscesses and a litany of disgusting things. None of those would be present in cultured meat and dairy. Next, and really at the top of the list, is the fact that you’re not needlessly killing animals by the billions. Which subsequently means you’re not destroying the environment as well. Then include the fact that you can “tune” the cultured meat/dairy to actually result in a far more nutritious and potentially tastier product. Also from what I understand there is the potential to hybridize meat ie; Ostrich/cow/pig piece of meat, a “frankenmeat” of sorts. Anyhoo I’m just curious to hear 👂🏽 opinions from people who recoil at the thought of cultured meat and dairy. I don’t eat meat or dairy and don’t miss either of them but I’d try cultured meat and dairy 🤷🏻‍♂️

[@1282louise]

@@MarcusUnread lab grown meat is full of chemicals and not vegan. Stem cells are used from aborted fetus to produce. It

[@surelywoo]

Nice comment.

[@connorjennings5852]

This is a poor take. Why does a diet being natural matter? Why does some specific food being the most nutrient dense matter? If I invented some food that was 1.1x more nutrient dense than meat, would that make meat unhealthy in his eyes? None of this is relevant. What matters is, what are the health outcomes, and the evidence clearly shows that a well planned vegan diet is not only adequate, but also provides some benefits (lower risk of heart disease, obesity, etc) As for anyone speaking of "forcing ideologies", remember that that is literally just what raising kids is. We all force the idea onto kids (hopefully) that they ought be kind to humans. Vegans just include animals in that too. Not sure why that's such an insane position to hold

[@DLC1990]

Your comment is the poor take. Do you really not understand what nutrient dense means and why its important?

[@connorjennings5852]

@@DLC1990 Let me guess, is it important for health outcomes? So we should just check those directly then, yes?

[@DLC1990]

@@connorjennings5852 how are you supposed to get adequate nutrition if your food has a low density of it?

[@connorjennings5852]

@@DLC1990 It doesn't have a low density, it just doesn't have the very highest density, which is what I was pointing out as irrelevant. Like I said, strictly speaking the most nutrient dense food would be a fortified food (something like Huel), but that doesn't make meat have an inadequate nutrient density. His implication was that unless you're eating the highest density food, you will be deficient, but that is false.

[@DLC1990]

@connorjennings5852 its not irrelevant. If your food is low in nutrient density, you are likely to gain deficiencies.

[@aaronloossonaaronloosjr.8630]

Hi, vegan from birth here. I definitely wasn't abused 😊 thanks for the concern, I'm currently stronger than max and more muscular. So if he would like help with his diet I'm glad to do it!

[@Assassin99584]

You were neglected

[@aaronloossonaaronloosjr.8630]

@@Assassin99584 says the guy dying for attention.

[@aaronloossonaaronloosjr.8630]

@@Assassin99584 says the guy whos dying for attention.

[@EmeraldPemju]

Me too. These people are hilarious.

[@alexchow9629]

What is a good milk alternative for new borns?

[@thiskid1510]

Bring someone on the podcast who is actually qualified to talk about diet and nutrition.

[@Magani79]

exactly. this guy is obviously chatting shit

[@prav1976]

This guy has zero qualifications to talk about this stuff. Although he is correct on this occasion.

[@Magani79]

@@prav1976 diet and nutrition organizations say balanced vegan diet with b12 is perfect for all stages of life tho

[@silasrossner4861]

@@prav1976 huh? Well he did write a couple of Books on diet and nutrition. He may be wrong. He may be right. But fact is he did spend a bit of time thinking and talking about this topic.

[@prav1976]

@@silasrossner4861 You and I spend a lot of time thinking and talking about topics but doesn’t make us experts. His degree is in photography or something.

[@siddhant365]

I was born to a vegetarian family. I’m 6 foot 2 and was bigger than most people in my school. I’m calling bullshit. Raise your kids how you want.

[@thejawk364]

Lol there is clear empirical evidence that not having the nutrients from meat decreases IQ and height. Saying you're a 6 foot 2 vegetarian so its bullshit is like someone who is a 100 year old smoker saying smoking don't kill

[@jacobmoney]

Might be true, since vegan's get more proteins than non-vegan.

[@jackodonnell3463]

Vegetarian is not the same as vegan

[@Daniel-vl8zm]

@@kc6810 Of course there isn't any evidence, this is the internet. Don't feed the trolls

[@Karll541]

lol

[@muppetchristine]

Bring on Ed Winters (Earthling Ed) for your podcast. Because this guy clearly does not know what he's talking about when it comes to plant based nutrition. The DHA that you get from fish comes from the algae that they eat, the fish is just the middle man. So just eat directly from the source itself or get an algae supplement if you are lacking in DHA. And saying how if a child is brought up vegan and it impairs them from "thriving" is simply not a good explanation.

[@alphacause]

Its sad that this is even controversial. There is a reason why all mammals, when first born, suckle at their mother's breast. They don't gravitate towards grass. Breast milk, for those who slept through basic science, is not vegan. Beyond that, whatever nutrition density that is in plants is not digestible due to multiple antinutrients and fiber, which blunt the absorption of those nutrients. Additionally, many of the nutrients in plants need to be converted by the body into a useable form. For example, in order utilize the vitamin A in carrots, the body must convert it from beta carotene to retinol. The conversion rate is poor. Where as if you get it from beef liver, it is all in the retinol form. The same goes for the omega 3 fatty acids found in salmon verses algae. The omega 3 fatty acids found in algae must be converted, and the conversion rate is poor. Salmon has omega 3 fatty acids in their usable form, from the get go.

[@ohwellwhateverr]

This should be top comment. People don’t get this and I’m sick of explaining it to pasty-faced vegans who are hellbent on telling me they’re the picture of health.

[@alphacause]

@@ohwellwhateverr Thank you. I appreciate the compliment.

[@strongblackcoffee9573]

I don't think any vegans are against nursing. 🤔 And you can get the same amounts of nutrients from plant sources, you just have to eat a little more. It's not rocket science.

[@MyMrdoodoo]

vegans are not concerned with the consumption of animal products from consenting people. Meaning breast-milk is not an issue. Ask any vegan. You can easily get enough vitamin A on a vegan diet, the conversion rate is low but not really an issue. DHA can be supplemented. Zero issues with my bloodwork

[@Cobalt1520]

not only baby mammals aren't vegan, but also adult herbivores aren't vegan: don't forgett cows don't wash their salad. When they take a bite, along with the grass, comes larvae, catterpillar and insects.

[@swites]

I'm 50 and a vegan of nearly 30yrs. I work a very physical job and am a cyclist which are very energy intensive activities( a 3hr ride in the hills burns over 2000cals). I bought up all 3 of my kids vegan. 2 are still vegan and one is now vegetarian. My youngest, now 20 has just finished university and is healthy and happy. He just looks like any other guy his age on the street He's a cool guy with a good personality and has lots of friends. He listens to people like you guys spouting off about veganism and just shakes his head. Don't worry I grew up in your world with PR and marketing shaping all my ideas about nutrition for my first 18yrs. When I first tried being vegetarian to see what would happen, for the first two weeks I was worried I might get really malnourished or die for all I knew. Nothing happened and I felt great! The penny dropped and I realised it was a load of nonsense, and mostly just cultural beliefs we just soak up from our immediate cultural environment. With all it's constant messaging and reinforcement, without really thinking. Also lots of men seem to have this terrible fear that if they don't eat meat(they buy off the shelf plastic wrapped at the supermarket) at every meal, their D will fall off. lol

[@skyhappy]

Why did you become vegan

[@nathanbrittain9102]

Vegan as a child?

[@MarcusUnread]

This guy gets it. 👏🏽

[@skyhappy]

@@MarcusUnread Gets what? Vitamin B12 deficiency?

[@MarcusUnread]

@@skyhappy 🤦🏻‍♂️ did you not read anything he said? Do you think he’s just lying about all that? I ate meat and dairy for most of my life and just like you I was snide and scoffed at the mere idea of not eating meat, dairy or eggs. Gave it all up years ago now, never felt better. I’ve worked out and lifted weights since my teens, still do. Pea protein powder in a smoothie after workouts, it’s great. Healthier than whey and not gross (research whey and see what you’re really consuming) Bloodwork has been excellent every year at the VA. Completely in tune with everything that goes in my body. Plants are just much easier on the gastrointestinal tract and body overall, it’s obvious and you can feel it. I’m not contributing to billions of animals being slaughtered every year either, which everyone can agree is great. Vast majority of the meat everyone eats is factory farmed, which is supplemented with B12. FYI.

[@Paczbro]

when I look up the most nutrient-dense foods per calorie (because that is the limiting factor of how much one can eat) there is almost no animal product in the top 20.

[@tjdeuceosix]

He literally named the study (Beal et al - Priority Micronutrient Density in Foods) and 18 of the top 20 are animal byproducts. What are you even talking about.

[@chimp09]

@@tjdeuceosix That study didn't look at nutrient density, but at nutrient density of "these commonly lacking micronutrients" with "these" meaning "iron, zinc, folate, vitamin A, calcium, and vitamin B12". So except folate those are pretty much all critical nutrients for vegans. The study is ok, but taking the study to bolster your claim "meat is nutrient dense" is at least cherry picking if not outright lying.

[@tjdeuceosix]

@@chimp09 ....

[@chimp09]

@@tjdeuceosix what is there you didn't understand? That there are more nutrients than those 6?

[@tjdeuceosix]

@@chimp09 he brought up that study particularly because those are the nutrients vegans are lacking in. And what he's ultimately arguing for is being an omnivore, in order to get all the macro and micronutrients nature has to offer that can't be achieved otherwise without extensive supplementation.

[@enbonj5842]

Its the nutrition that matters not the packaging necessarily. I try to not pay for animal products but its hard to get all your nutrients because you have to eat a lot of different foods. Also veganism isnt a silly idealogoy at all, its a very honorable thing to do to care about animal suffering. Factory farmed animals have lives of pain, fear and suffering until death. Its cruel.

[@johncremeans969]

Animals cannot know fear because they don't know what death is they don't know they will die and they have no expectations whatsoever

[@johnmacrae2006]

@enbonj5842 I strongly dislike the commodification of our food supply, it’s hard for smaller, more harmonious regenerative operations to compete with factory farming. You get what you pay for, if you buy meat from a family farm it’s more likely to be fully grass-fed, whereas say, cattle spend half a year or more being fattened with GMO grains on a filthy, cramped feedlot.

[@Magani79]

​@@johncremeans969 sadly they do... they are waiting in line and they know, go look up slaughterhouse footage to see for yourself i've seen many cows have panic attacks in those lines

[@onezweithree]

What do you expect? The guy in the video didn't provide any sources for any of the claims regarding health outcome for vegan children. Just because someone is allowed to speak on a random podcast, it does not mean, that he or she knows anything about the topic at hand.

[@johnmacrae2006]

@@Magani79 What does a cow panic attack look like?

[@calacestar]

I was raised vegetarian. Even vegan wouldn't have been an issue. What is actual child abuse, is feeding your children with food that has poor nutritional value. Vegans tend to care more about and are more mindful with their diet. I'd argue the obesity rate in the western world due to fast and processed food (often including huge ammounts of meat) is far unhealthier and thus a bigger risk to the lives of the children. It's not a question of omnivore, carnivore, or vegan. It's a question of healthy food or not!

[@williamsulman2646]

Raising kids vegan is an issue. Do some more homework before you make stupid statements! Most of the crap the vegans are putting into their body is ridiculously processed. I'm 37 today. I'm 6.2 and I weigh 15 stone. I dunno what that is in yank I'm afraid about 200 pounds I think. I have 7 percent body fat and I could beat any vegan at any physical challenge that they wanna pick. I will put 10 grand on that! Oh I also smoke 40/50 a day and I would still ruin any vegan at any physical challenge strength goes without saying but endurance too. I consume animal protien in every single meal that I eat and it has made me pretty invisible.

[@2FingerTuesday]

I don't think you watched the video. They addressed this

[@XxTreyvonxX]

It has nothing to do with meat and everything to do with portion control.

[@Felale]

There is no such vegan diet which isn’t nutrient deficient.

[@DLC1990]

Obesity comes from trans fats, processed sugars and lack of exersise. Good quality meat isnt the culprit. Children need animal fats for development.

[@MrHammer9]

People here for confirmation bias. I would say if you are feeding your kids a wide range of plant based whole foods, it’s 100x better than feeding them processed fast foods like 95% of parents do.

[@MrHammer9]

I do think they might be blinded by health issues that might crop up because of their cult ideology

[@itstimeforlee]

You think 95% of parents only give their kids fast food? 🤣 If this is what you have to say to try and make veganism sound OK, then veganism is truly harmful.

[@emilydarrall6693]

I agree. someone who is taking care of their Childs nutrition without including animal products is gonna be a better diet than the vast majority of children are given, yet it would not be socially acceptable to say that most parents are child abusers

[@DLC1990]

Thats already been said in the video. But thats only a half argument. Giving them a proper balanced diet including animal products is healthier than a 100 percent plant based diet

[@petster13]

Im a teacher and 100% see the difference between my vegan students vs omnivore students. Maybe theyll grow up fine later in life but early stages of childhood, veganism can stunt growth.

[@MsLinz1975]

I know a couple who has raised their two boys vegan, the Dad is a plant based chef. They are well developed boys, one is in a excellent footballer in well known teams. The are a very active family, and healthy. I did give up veganism veggi life style when I was pregnant. And I dont feel children can make that choice untill at least the age of 7.

[@AshAndCream]

Children can't be trusted to make reasonable choices.

[@nickvogel]

You think 7 is old enough to decide their nutrition? You let them eat whatever they want?

[@marienmorand]

​@@AshAndCreamthey can be trsuted better than adults . Kids are sensitive to other beings 's pain and suffering.

[@marienmorand]

​@@nickvogelmost adults eat what they want and its so unbalanced. Occident is the paramount of unhealthy food and people.

[@AshAndCream]

@@marienmorand Children aren't magical creatures. They are dumber and more compulsive versions of adults. Don't romanticize underdeveloped brains.

[@undergrace1808]

An animal is not a product. Got those blinders in tight.

[@gronksteady]

So then a banana is not a product? Of course they both are. Anything a person consumes is a product. ANYTHING. Words, food, content, games, entertainment.

[@janinemelanie8391]

If plant based diets are ‘child abuse’, maybe don’t use the word ‘vegan’ in your sales pitch for your coffee alternative? Which looks amazing by the way.. that’s the power of plants 🙃

[@Emmanuevans]

I know two mothers who recently had children and decided to be vegan throughout the pregnancies. Both children came out at 9 & 10 lbs respectively, so this idea of stunted development from a vegan diet seems shaky at best. Will see how the children develop.

[@onezweithree]

There is so much data on this topic and all of it shows, that a well planned vegan diet during pregnancy is totally fine. This guy didn't provide any sources for his claims and its pretty clear, that he is making it up...

[@aqqibabs]

Well I know vegan mothers whose babies look absolutely sickly, malnourished and tiny. So that's not proper proof that is does (or doesn't) work.

[@Karll541]

lol

[@emilydarrall6693]

I saw an analysis of growth for vegan children recently. All studies except one there was no difference and in one study they were shorter but I think the vegan sample was younger so not evidence of them being stunted

[@vwracer969]

I didn't have a chance when I was fed milk and bad food. it is something that we need to educate all. find the balance.

[@KevinLuna]

I've seen thousands of thriving healthy vegan children. I am a Vegan Nutritionist and in my Health Community we have 1,000s of testimonials proving this to be completely wrong. We help pregnant mommas and we all get essential nutrients from plants and educate nutrition everyday.

[@lachyfreestone9311]

PLEASE TELL ME WHAT NUTRIENTS, these goons never put forward what deficiencies are actually going on, just throw it under the guise of “protein and stuff” like cmon. What nutrients bro, why can’t you just eat the foods that the vegetarian animals eat to get the nutrients?

[@denali1566]

Because I can't digest grass and even if I could I wouldn't want to expend the time and effort required to force that much matter into my body. Do you have any idea how many hours a day herbivores spend grazing?

[@lachyfreestone9311]

@@Ryan-wx1bi well aware of amino acid profiles, so which amino acids are vegans lacking? Which ones can’t they get that happen to be in meat (where does the animal get it from?). None of the vitamins or minerals listed are unavailable on a vegan diet, and as far as B12 is concerned most omnis should also be supplementing due to a majority of the soils (the source of B12, not magically animals) worldwide are overused and scarce of it, most B12 is injected straight into the animal these days. Thanks for the list though, shame the guest discussing the topic didn’t have the same information

[@Astillion]

This was more balanced than the title would suggest. And Max said that a vegan diet is better than the standard American diet. Does that mean he thinks that the SAD is child abuse? I have a lot of respect for Alex, who went vegan because of ethics, and had to quit because of health. He had underlying issues. I've been vegan longer than he was, and have no underlying issues, and have had no healthproblem because of my diet. I feel no different than when I was eating meat and dairy. And yes, obviously it's more difficult to get all the essential nutrients when you eat only plants than when you eat both plants and animal products. Most people find it difficult to eat a wide variety of foods. Most people I know eat significantly less varied than I do. The science is pretty clear on plant based diets. A well planned vegan diet is healthy. And there's cases of people making it past 100, having been vegan for over 50 years. I think I'll stay vegan as long as I live. But I would incorporate animal products if my health depended on it. It would be interesting if Chris had the discussion about health with a vegan. He missed a great opportunity when he talked to Rich Roll. David Sinclair would also be a good person to talk about this with. He's not vegan, and loves meat, but has quit meat and eat almost exclusively plant based, because he's been convinced by the evidence.

[@tatywork9126]

so how do you know a child has some underlying issues? its a gamble, works for some and doesnt work for others.

[@Astillion]

@@tatywork9126 You don't. Whatever you're feeding your child, it's good to do regular checkups.

[@MarcusUnread]

This.

[@KevinLuna]

Yes. The SAD is child abuse

[@kayakMike1000]

There are people who smoke well into their 90s... Doesn't mean it's healthy.

[@Ardah8]

Wish y'all would bring up actual non biased studies on the pod and compare and see.

[@pizaliasta8369]

I think modern wisdom does a pretty good job being balanced, after all, he did have the vegan guy on, whose name I forgot but I did listen to the entire podcast.

[@BradleyCousins]

not dead yet, been vegan for many years now

[@freeallfaded]

yea, but youre a vegan, sounds like a fate worse than death

[@V_Deity]

Disgusting amount of bro-science and ignorance being spread. Shame on both people

[@diomedea29]

I was raised vegetarian. My husband’s family have been vegetarians for centuries. Neither of us have any of the issues described in this video. He is regurgitating a lot of outdated “wisdom” that we all are tired to hear.

[@strongblackcoffee9573]

What BS ..My child is vegan and she is bigger than most children her age, and she has nonstop energy. We eat (everything organic) beans, grains, nuts, seeds, veg and fruit.. nothing processed..

[@onionfarmer3044]

Nice fanfiction.

[@michaelhenderson643]

I know some excellent people who raise their kid vegan. We went camping together. I ate beef hot dogs and everything and they ate vegan stuff. We all had a great time. Kid was happy and super healthy.

[@chrisbrown2211]

Wtf you can tell the kid was healthy from a camping trip?

[@andrewjoyner4133]

I was involved with a religious community (Hare Krishna) so I know dozens of kids who were brought up vegetarian and they were perfectly healthy. So to be clear they do eat dairy products but abstain from meat fish and eggs. The vegan stuff I am not too sure about. Maybe you can bring up a healthy kid vegan but it would be something I would have to look into carefully. I am sure this guy is pretty biased.

[@pizaliasta8369]

optimal health will come from also eating animal products. Overall vegan is pretty healthy compared to the standard American diet which is awful, but most vegans eventually develop issues, or certainly are not as healthy as they could be.

[@chrisbrown2211]

@@andrewjoyner4133 how is he biased? He's just speaking facts

[@FilipinaVegana]

​@@andrewjoyner4133 🐟 30. FOOD & DIET: There are THREE kinds of foods according to the three "modes" explicated in Chapter 18 of this “A Final Instruction Sheet for Humanity”. Foods in the mode of purity promote good physical and mental health. The adage "healthy body, healthy mind" is pertinent to this mode. Such foods include, in approximate order of their importance: fruits (especially if they are tree-ripened), vegetables, nuts, legumes/pulses, grains, roots, flowers, tubers, bulbs, and of course, purified water (or milk, in the case of infants), supplemented with seeds and herbs. To be included in this classification, the food must be LIVING, that is, fresh and raw (or at most, steamed or lightly sautéed, if one is residing in a cold clime). Most animals subsist on living foodstuffs, so to be considered healthy, the food must be both living and natural. As with all herbivorous mammals, humans who consume a pure diet normally experience a bowel movement after each substantial meal. Foods in the mode of passion promote indigestion (or, at least, are more difficult to digest than pure foods) and overly-excite the mind. Such foods are basically the same as above, but with excessive amounts of oil, spices, sweeteners, salt and/or other condiments added. To be included in this category, the VEGETARIAN* foods may be properly cooked, but not overcooked, and mildly to moderately seasoned. Those who consume foods predominately in the mode of passion normally defecate after breaking their fast (i.e. the first meal of the day). Foods in the mode of darkness cannot rightly be called “food” at all, and invariably cause digestive upsets, such as constipation or diarrhoea. Such “offal” is either dry, stale, putrid, rancid, decayed, carcinogenic, overcooked (or even worse, burnt), processed beyond recognition, or the remnants of another’s meal (that is, food that has been leftover by a person who is lower in the hierarchy of society than the person who intends to consume it. For example, it would be offensive for a beggar to offer the remains of his meal to his king, yet the converse would be a rather gracious act of kindness). Again, to be included in this classification, the food is to be of wholly PLANT or fungal origin. Ideally, the bulk (if not ALL) of one's diet should comprise of minimally-processed raw foods, such as tropical fruits or vegetable salads, the latter of which often consists of fruits anyway, since such foods as tomatoes, cucumbers and olives are, in fact, fruits, since they are seed-bearing foods. If one consumes a very high proportion of raw fruits, it is rarely, if ever, necessary to fast. Fasting is beneficial for those who partake in a diet high in processed and cooked dishes. Fruit-juice fasting is possibly the best method of fasting, especially for those living an active lifestyle. Unless one is particularly active, eating more than two meals per day is unnecessary. Ideally, cooked and highly-processed foods should be reserved for the final meal of the day, since the process of digestion itself consumes more energy than any other activity. It is an undeniable scientific fact that humans are a HERBIVOROUS species (more specifically, a predominantly frugivorous, or fruit-eating animal). There is not a single aspect of human psychology or physiology that even suggests that we were designed or evolved to feed on our fellow animals. The primary visual cortex of the brains of hominids has precisely evolved to recognise the colourful fruits that grew in the tropics of the African continent. Only a veritable troglodyte could possibly take delight in the sight and stench of bloody animal carcasses! Practically all cat owners know to feed their pets with animal flesh, as they understand that felines are obligate carnivores, yet they have not the slightest clue that humans are herbivores biologically, and that the consumption of animal products is gradually destroying their health. Animal consumption is lawful only if there is a scarcity of ACTUAL food. However, to be fair, some races have adapted reasonably well to an omnivorous diet due to residing in regions of the earth where edible vegetation has been scarce, for millennia before the twentieth century. But even then, those races have been found to improve their health when their diet had been enriched with vegetation. Humans originated in the wetlands of tropical Africa and our source of food is necessarily to be found in such a climate. We humans must surely be the only species of animal life that migrates away from its food source! Who among you would not prefer tropical fruits over the “food” found in the Arctic Circle? Unnecessarily killing and/or consuming animals is an ABOMINABLE action. It is not natural for humans to hunt animals like sheep, cows, goats, rabbits, chicken, and fish, and gorge on their bloody carcasses. Sheep, rabbits, and cows are food for carnivorous animals such as lions, tigers and wolves, and fish is food for marine and semi-aquatic species. Do humans live in the ocean? Of course not! Then why is it necessary for us to go into the water to find our food? Is that sensible? Not at all, unless, as previously mentioned, one is afflicted with true hunger (and even in the event that one is literally dying of starvation, one ought to, from a moral perspective, as far as practical, eat those animals that are lower in the hierarchy of sentience, such as seafood. Slaughtering a primate is immeasurably more sinful than feeding on crustacean, for instance). Milk is intended solely for consumption by infants of the SAME species. Cow’s milk is for baby cows, not adult humans. The logic is overwhelming, but unfortunately, not all persons are capable of reaching such a base level of logic to understand that it is unnatural for a human to suckle on the teats of a cow or goat. Furthermore, like all unnatural substances, dairy products are harmful to human physiology. Ideally, one should sit in a comfortable position and eat one’s meal with a RELAXED mental disposition. Consuming food in an anxious state of mind may cause digestive upsets. If practical, eating with bare (washed) hands is more conducive to the enjoyment of one’s meal. “And God said, ‘Behold, I have given you every plant yielding seed that is on the face of all the earth, and every tree with seed in its fruit. You shall have them for food.’” Genesis 1:29. The Old Testament portion of the “Holy Bible”. “Let food be thy medicine, and let medicine be thy food.” Hippocrates, Father of modern medicine. *The term “Vegetarian” is used LITERALLY here, that is, “one who subsists on vegetation”. One who consumes vegetation and dairy and/or eggs is properly called a “lacto-vegetarian” or a “lacto-ovo vegetarian”, respectively. The term “vegan” is not directly related to diet, but to the philosophy of the avoidance of harming animal life unnecessarily. Animal killing is permissible only in the case of true hunger, self-defence, or in order to eradicate vermin from one's dwelling and work places. Obviously, veganism is to be promoted as the ideal way of life for all humans. N.B. If you are reading this Holy Scripture, it is highly probable that you are familiar with the concept of the “Three Modes of Nature” (“trī-guṇa”, in Sanskrit). If not, it may be prudent to read or re-read Chapter 18 of “FISH” at this point. In any case, those who are, in fact, familiar with the three modes of nature have an extremely flawed understanding of how they apply to food and diet, particularly if they have studied the ancient Indian texts known collectively as “Ayur Veda” (“The Science of Life/Longevity”). Those persons invariably believe that animal products are categorized in the mode of darkness. However, that assumes that animals are actually human food, which they most assuredly are not. The system outlined above is by far the most accurate, logical, and authoritative method of classifying food, and ought to be followed by anyone who is truly desirous of living a wholesome life. Unfortunately, even most vegans seem to lean towards less-than-healthy foods. © 2019-2023 Spiritual Sciences Society.

[@-astrangerontheinternet6687]

It’s a bold claim stated way too casually. Abuse implies ill intent, and its absurd (and kinda gross) to paint an entire group of persons as abusive towards their children for eating vegan. It’s not “abusive” that parents would follow the advice of medical professionals and federal guidelines. The claim is divisive, demonizing and dehumanizing. And a distraction. What our neighbors put in their mouths doesn’t harm us. What corporations pay advertisers (including medical professionals) to convince us to put in our mouth often does harm us.

[@x0rn312]

I don't agree, I think he's right on the money. Vegans are way over the top with their rhetoric, so I don't see a problem with fighting fire with fire.

[@tranebur5450]

Soy comment

[@dillonblack4524]

Would you say that a radical religious person that causes psychological distress in their child is not abusive because their intent is to save their child's soul? Confusion of a parent is not an excuse for abuse.

[@-astrangerontheinternet6687]

@@dillonblack4524 Read my last sentence again. ✌🏻

[@dillonblack4524]

@-astrangerontheinternet6687 I agree with that statement. But medical professionals recommend eating a mostly plant based diet not a vegan diet they recommend eating fish and chicken. So they're taking the idea to the extreme causing harm.

[@dempsey2023]

Did you pick this guy up of the street, Chris? Why don't you get a real nutritionist on?

[@agisler87]

Who cares. The "real" nutritionists are a joke and shouldn't be trusted. Most are still propagating fat is bad.

[@johnmacrae2006]

@dempsey2023 Man, the vegan army really turned out in the comments here.

[@indef2def]

@@johnmacrae2006 It's almost as if when you unscientifically slander a group of people as child abusers, they get a little mad about it. :-p

[@johnmacrae2006]

@@indef2def Most vegans wouldn’t force their offspring to also be vegan. I hope.

[@indef2def]

@@johnmacrae2006 Would you "force" your offspring not to stab puppies for fun?

[@maggyfrog]

didn't vegans redefine human breastmilk as "vegan" to avoid acknowledging that the primary food source of babies is animal-based because humans are technically animals?

[@lynzannabel6990]

@maggyfrog Good question.

[@okaySam]

ah, hypocrisy, the corner stone of any extremist ideology.

[@daxrico266]

Breast milk is vegan because it's victimless. The 'animals' in question here aren't tortured and slaughtered in the production of breast milk

[@skeptyka]

You're misunderstanding what veganism is. The main idea is simply about avoiding exploitation of animals, which is why any product that does not inherently involve animal exploitation is vegan. This includes breast milk, and even meat in situations where animal exploitation was not involved. It makes no sense to avoid all animal products for no reason.

[@rano12321]

@@daxrico266 were you there when they were producing milks?

[@nivia7684]

T. Colin Campbell wrote a book called Whole. It details how the nutrients in whole foods operate together like a perfect symphony. Isolated nutrient supplements look at food the wrong way.

[@joshgoldstein8309]

Chris I like your stuff a lot but this is just irresponsible

[@hansheisenberg8737]

I had a classmate who was forced to be vegan by her parents. She ate fried chicken while at school like it was the best thing in world. She immediately cut ties with her home after graduating high school.

[@utm4638]

Hope her health is on track now.

[@FilipinaVegana]

Because veganism is a purely moral or ethical concept, it is not possible to be an ACCIDENTAL vegan. Therefore, a child who is raised by vegan parents or guardians cannot rightly call himself or herself “vegan” unless he or she shares the moral disposition of his/her superiors. Likewise, a man who resides in a location where animal products are unavailable, and consequently, subsists entirely on plants, cannot be a genuine vegan, unless of course, he acknowledges the rights of non-humans to not be harmed unduly. Furthermore, it is logically impossible, or at least extremely discordant, for a person to claim to be an ex-vegan, for this would entail supplanting the belief that non-human animals are morally significant with the opposite position!

[@carolynpitchford3857]

@@utm4638 well I guess she felt like her over controlling parents were making her less healthy mentally why can't we just be moderate and less controlling embrace all ideas

[@butch843]

​@@FilipinaVeganathere are many ex vegans who quit due to health issues.

[@strongblackcoffee9573]

Sounds like there was some emotional or physical trauma..don't blame the diet

[@gbibim]

Granted this is a 13 min discussion about a very complex topic. But even taking this into consideration I was surprised by how superficial all of the arguments were. I think it is fair to be worried that we don't know enough yet to be able to say with absolute certainty that a vegan diet is optimal for development but we also do not know for sure it isn't. The whole argument about us "knowing more than nature" is a complete fallacy. Do you feel the same about all the diseases mother nature gave us and we learned how to cure. I honestly think veganism might be just another instance of that. We NEEDED to exploit animals in the past but we developed enough technologies to make that a choice. With that said I do think that is not for everyone. I know they were talking about Alex O'Connor. I admire that man immensely for everything he did for veganism. And he is an example of someone that had good reasons for NOT to be vegan. But from there to jump to the conclusion that most people shouldn't be vegan is also dishonest. We don't know about that yet, there is no data for it. It looks like two very intelligent men just fell victim to the mistake of equating correlation with causation.

[@DLC1990]

Lets look at it like this: Most kids hate eating vegetables, but love eating meat. Doesnt that tell you something? There is also plenty of other sources that you can listen to/ view on the subject.

[@gbibim]

Most humans love to spend hours on social media. Doesn’t that tell you something?

[@janinemelanie8391]

This is really disappointing especially the title. Downplays what child abuse really is. What it is called when parents let their children eat ‘beige’ food every day?

[@DLC1990]

It kind of is child abuse when you are setting your kids up for stunted development, mental health issues, deficiencies etc

[@janinemelanie8391]

@@DLC1990 you could do this on any diet if you aren’t feeding them a well balanced diet. If you’re just giving them chicken nuggets and chips all the time is this not abusive? What about if it’s a very well researched plant based diet full of protein, omegas, minerals, fibre and vitamins?

[@DLC1990]

@janinemelanie8391 there arent any. You still need animal products whilst in development stage. Most vegans only became vegans in their adult lives and went through youth eating animal products.

[@janinemelanie8391]

@@DLC1990 I didn’t and I have had two very healthy babies who I breastfed. When I’ve had my blood taken I’ve been shown to have zero deficiencies and higher than average iron. It’s totally possible to do this and be completely healthy

[@DLC1990]

@@janinemelanie8391 and how many supliments do you take?

[@plokijuh5830]

Idiotic nonsense. As long as parents give their infant supplements so they don’t become deficient in anything

[@HectorD.Nazario]

Very sustainable way of getting your nutrients right? 😅

[@GarudaLegends]

If you need to take supplements the diet is deficient. This is why forcing kids to eat a vegan diet is child abuse. Use your brain

[@passivelyasking4825]

Raise your children however you like. Until its the opposite of how i would raise mine them I'm going to categorize it as child abuse. Silliness.

[@jxeh1442]

He speaks so confidently for someone who blatantly hasn’t a clue what he is on about.

[@creatancremanova7097]

what narcissists are made of...

[@Kopite96]

​@@jagodaszubert2404meat isn't good for you. If you ate only meat for the rest of your life you'd have all sorts of issues. If you eat plant based vegan you'd be fine.

[@tjdeuceosix]

Lol he's literally citing studies in this clip

[@AaronVets]

@@tjdeuceosix Citing one or two studies that go against scientific consensus is disingenuous.

[@tjdeuceosix]

@@AaronVets what scientific consensus are you referring to? Afaik there's no consensus that suggests veganism doesn't require the supplementation required by vegans that max is talking about in this clip

[@greenprincess]

The largest organization of nutritionists in the USA: "It is the position of the Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics that appropriately planned vegetarian, including vegan, diets are healthful, nutritionally adequate, and may provide health benefits for the prevention and treatment of certain diseases. These diets are appropriate for all stages of the life cycle, including pregnancy, lactation, infancy, childhood, adolescence, older adulthood, and for athletes."

[@shauneallan2664]

yup

[@strongblackcoffee9573]

You can eat processed garbage and be vegan or you can actually cook organic nutritious food and be healthy 🤷🏼‍♂️ this guy is full of it..

[@Felale]

I wouldn’t trust any nutritionist or quack American doctor organization. Bad source. Try again.

[@arleenm7367]

You should consider having Simon Hill or Chris MacAskill on as a guest.

[@Alaskaventureswithbrodie]

Exactly @simonhill would be great

[@patrickaramouni5599]

He would never bring a pro vegan figure in my opinion as there would be a conflict of interest with one of his main sponsors, which is a meat company..

[@blackmarketarmy]

simon is awesome

[@Doofie1990]

What kind of BS is this? I know he blames his mum death on vegetarianism so he obviously has a clear bias and a chip on his shoulder. What exactly are his credentials? Talking out of his backside. You can argue that that feeding your child meat is abuse because children are naturally compassionate. What’s the first thing kids wanna do when they meat an animal? Hug it or stab it in the neck? You don’t NEED animal products to thrive! It’s cultural conditioning. I am raising my child vegan and she is fully breastfeed with no formula. Perfectly healthy.

[@northwoodfalls1403]

Lol I love how the comments section is full of people coming for this guy because he’s not an “expert” and then go on to claim the average person out there can totally manage to cobble together a plant based diet that will meet the high nutritional demands of a growing child. Most also totally miss the point he makes about not being able to simply break food down into a code of its nutritional constituents and re create those ad hoc via other means. We are a complex system that we barely understand but we think we can just read a table of required vitamins and minerals and macronutrients and select those off of a shelf and call it a day. Being an omnivore is something that was selected for over millions of years of slow evolution. There is no way we have anywhere near the understanding of how complex all this is. Messing with it is just asking for trouble.

[@lucidlavender9814]

I thought I was vegan for life, until I started to witness the children that were being raised vegan, considerably under developed and under nourished and I was forced to change my mind.

[@FilipinaVegana]

Because veganism is a purely moral or ethical concept, it is not possible to be an ACCIDENTAL vegan. Therefore, a child who is raised by vegan parents or guardians cannot rightly call himself or herself “vegan” unless he or she shares the moral disposition of his/her superiors. Likewise, a man who resides in a location where animal products are unavailable, and consequently, subsists entirely on plants, cannot be a genuine vegan, unless of course, he acknowledges the rights of non-humans to not be harmed unduly. Furthermore, it is logically impossible, or at least extremely discordant, for a person to claim to be an ex-vegan, for this would entail supplanting the belief that non-human animals are morally significant with the opposite position!

[@Opal5674]

​@@FilipinaVeganaBeing vegan is a privilege. In the past when crops failed if your ancestors had eaten meat you wouldn't be here.

[@strongblackcoffee9573]

My child is vegan she is actually bigger than most children her age, and she has nonstop energy. She eats only organic beans, grains, nuts seeds , veggies fruit etc.. it's very possible to be a healthy vegan, if you do it right 🤷🏼‍♂️

[@calacestar]

I was raised vegetarian. Even vegan wouldn't have been an issue. What is actual child abuse, is feeding your children with food that has poor nutritional value. Vegans tend to care more about and are more mindful with their diet. I'd argue the obesity rate in the western world due to fast and processed food (often including huge ammounts of meat) is far unhealthier and thus a bigger risk to the lives of the children. It's not a question of omnivore, carnivore, or vegan. It's a question of healthy food or not!

[@williamsulman2646]

​@strongblackcoffee9573 you can't do it right and your child does not have a choice and if it were up to me whatever state you live in would take charge of your child

[@GordonPavilion]

Everyone “loves” animals until they hear the word “vegan”…then they’ll argue tooth and nail why it’s acceptable to abuse them. Rob Zombi

[@WinstonSmithGPT]

I’m sure that sounded clever in your head.

[@saltandpepperandmint]

@@WinstonSmithGPT🤣🤣🤣

[@jxeh1442]

@@WinstonSmithGPTtell me why it’s wrong then

[@HectorD.Nazario]

You can love animals and also understand that animals make part of our food chain.

[@GordonPavilion]

@@HectorD.Nazario you don’t love animals if you endorse cruelty upon them. There are other alternatives to eating the flesh of an animal that did not want to die.

[@benchoflemons398]

“Child abuse” means that the state must forcefully remove the child from the family. I don’t think the term should be thrown around

[@jayburris6252]

I think not feeding your child correctly is not hyperbolic whatsoever. It’s child abuse.

[@Shortydude847]

So not feeding your child adequate nutrition, and no veggies/nuts/fruits do not provide all nutrients the person needs is not abuse? Maybe you need to do a deep search in your soul.

[@miklimecat9636]

I remember news reports of a few children (babies, actually) who died due to malnutrition from this.

[@fat_boy_slim]

I mean, considering a couple in Italy did get their children removed from them for exactly that, feeding them a vegan diet, that seems pretty clearly abuse

[@greenprincess]

@@miklimecat9636 yes and no babies ever die from malnutrition on non-vegan diets

[@quicknumbercrunch8691]

Fifty-five years ago I gave up all animal products except fish and I fee great and I look younger than my friends who eat mammals and birds. I would like to give up fish, but I do fear losing Omega vitamins. All chemicals and processing that go into cows and the like make those foods unhealthy. It is no longer the days when a family keeps a big and then butchers it. Factory foods are garbage. Finally, modern quantities of processed meats has nothing to do with what is natural. It is naïve the way the guest speaks of what humans were meant to eat. Your guest will someday soon find his high cholesterol is rapidly aging him.

[@baconshow]

Fish don't naturally produce Omega-3 complex vitamins; instead, plants do. Algae, the source of Omega-3, is consumed by fish. To obtain Omega-3 from fish, one ends up needing to kill numerous fish, making it a less efficient middleman. This point was the only accurate statement made by the guest.

[@quicknumbercrunch8691]

I live in Paris where fresh algee is hard to come by. If you have some sources let me know. The Omega pills famously do not store the acids well.

[@williammentink]

Then what about cultures of the Arctic and the vast grasslands of the world where the cultures followed the herd? Wouldn't it be worth considering that their ways of living and eating are the original and appropriate ways of eating.

[@Kopite96]

So true. You can find omega supplements that are vegan dude. The fish don't produce it, they themselves get it from algae which is plants.

[@quicknumbercrunch8691]

Our ancestors obtain food using methods they learned. Some followed heards and lived a short time because their diets were not good. Others ate nuts, fruits, insects, amphibians and whatever their local environment permitted. They might have lived much longer than the carnivores. Some lived of plants and animals in the sea. It sounds like that might have been a healthy, long-life giving diet. @@williammentink

[@saltandpepperandmint]

Dr Eric Berg said that the #1 anti-inflammatory food is beef 🥩

[@saltandpepperandmint]

@@Ryan-wx1bi he’s being censored on youtube and that tells me he knows a lot

[@saltandpepperandmint]

@@Mysteri0usMem0 THIS!

[@strongblackcoffee9573]

Harvard medical school says red meat is highly inflammatory. Trust who you want. Every body is different..🤷🏼‍♂️

[@strongblackcoffee9573]

Harvard medical school says red meat is highly inflammatory. Trust who you want. Every body is different..🤷🏼‍♂️

[@OneEarthlingAmongMany]

Academy of nutrition and dietetics, the largest body of doctors and nutritionists, hold the position that a vegan diet is healthful at all stages of life. As Max touches on, you can feed your children McDonalds and that is significantly worse than a vegan diet. He also talks about nutrient density. It's important to focus more on how much do we need. No point pumping in 10 tonnes of protein if you don't need it! The required nutrients (and in their volumes) are all adequate in a vegan diet. There's some good resources out there such as the game changers documentary, what the health documentary and the aforementioned paper. I think it's also worth considering the environmental impact, but more importantly, you literally take away another life for quite literally taste pleasure. Time to level up. Go vegan.

[@steventaxdahl4896]

How do you know someone is a vegan? Don't worry, they will let you know.

[@2FingerTuesday]

True, but this joke is OOOOOOOOLD

[@Kopite96]

Heard this about 20 years ago.

[@1282louise]

How funny. Becsuse as a vegan i believe tsking your kid to Mcdonalds is child abuse.

[@LockMacFly]

Bruh my brother doesnt eat animal products and his B12 was through the roof in his bloodwork. Doctor told him to eat it less. 😂 So all I can think is 'clown'

[@TheLee267]

Why not get someone on who actually knows and is qualified to talk about this stuff?

[@URWELCOME]

Most INDIANS GREW UP Vegetarian

[@RyuBateson218]

Toor dahl > western meat replacements.

[@chrisbrown2211]

Not the same as vegan but also not that healthy

[@RyuBateson218]

@@chrisbrown2211 Indian cuisine uses lots of oil. For the rest it is fine. They use lots of vegetables, dairy, grains and legumes, so you get all you need when eating traditional Indian food.

[@pizaliasta8369]

Native Americans (if that is what you mean by Indians) ran herds of buffalo and other game off of cliffs to kill them in mass quantities so they could use the animals for food, clothing, etc., and there are at least a dozen places identified for this. Ulm Pishkun had bison bones piled 13 feet deep at the bottom of a mile long cliff in Montana where it is now a state park. If you are referring to people from the country of India, a good place to start is average height. Indians from a lower socio economic strata are about 5' 5" on average, about 5' 8" on average if they come from a higher social class, where more meat is consumed, and the compare that to countries with meat as a part of the diet like European countries on average or the US and Canada where average male height is about 5' 10".

[@carolynpitchford3857]

@@RyuBateson218 alot of vegans of Indian cuisine rely on rice and bread and they look fat

[@HeliosEffect]

It quite literally isnt

[@anonimo5912]

Lifting Vegan Logic has responded to this video, so yeah...

[@jaidev777]

There's a sort of veganism ideology, but we should also be careful not to assume that just because someone is promoting a more plant-based diet means they're under an ideology. Also on the flip side, there's a sort of reactionary counter-veganism ideology (deliberately pro-meat mmm bacon lulz etc etc), but we should also be careful not to assume that just because someone is promoting animal products means they're under an ideology. This idea of better engineering our nutrition (for various well-being reasons, including of the animals not just ours) is fine, in fact I encourage and support it. That's not the issue at all. The issue is that it's an *incredibly* complex problem which too many people trivialize (yes, even the fact that we have evolved to *like* more natural-occurring forms of nutrition sources) - in this case, a loud subset of those promoting the plant-based diets, as it's suspected they are allowing ideology to overtake intellectual honesty. We have to maintain the discipline to separate the science away from blind ideology - and we can do that even while wholeheartedly supporting and aiming for increased well-being (again even for animal welfare). This means being honest with where the science currently is, and refraining from trying to jump to conclusions.

[@jmass4207]

I'd be all for it if "plant-based" meant plant-based and not veganism, aka no animal products. It's a marketing ploy that unfortunately trods all over a state that could much more easily be achieved - people eating far fewer animal foods but maintaining optimal health. Check out: The Virtue Of Being A Victim : The Psychology of Pity. It's an interesting video on research into victim narratives and how they often counter-intuitively alienate accused people. Vegans have themselves to blame for the silliness of counter-veganism.

[@Karll541]

Lol 🤣

[@ESM77]

I say do what works for your own body the best, some do great on carnivore while some do best on plant based. One fits all with diet is just false.

[@reddevil00745able]

My kids are being raised to eat vegetarians. Specifically cow. It is good for their growth and development. Plus I am teaching them how to help the environment by getting rid of huge source of methane by sustainable means. Eat cow. Help the environment😁

[@lynzannabel6990]

@reddevil00745able Love your comment.....eat vegetarians. Yes, eat them indeed and enjoy.👍🏾😂

[@strongblackcoffee9573]

Hope you buy organic grass fed at least...

[@patrickd8770]

Authors are always a weird one to be “experts” on something. This guys seems reasonable, and to be fair most nutritionists come off more zealots than scientists

[@jackodonnell3463]

My pregnant vegan friend ate some of my salmon and said it was like she was seeing colors for the first time.

[@brentpeddy4223]

Amen! 🙌🏻

[@CJWolf-st1qi]

This is BS, I know some kids who have been vegan their whole lives, healthiest in their class, tallest, never get sick, etc. Like everything, you just have to do it right.

[@Cobalt1520]

Theres no way to "do it right". Those kids you know.... they aren't really "vegan". In ancient times, in every agricultural society, a decrease in height was observed. On the other side, in hunter-gatherer societies the height was always greater than the farmers societies. And farmers weren't even vegan, just mainly vegetarian. So, those kids... they live a double live: their parents are either adding vitaminic and proteic suplements to their food, or they are knowingly taking it.

[@K4R3N]

Clean Omnivore > Vegan > SAD

[@user-kf8wb2cq4f]

Food Animals ARE LARGELY raised Without compassion or kindness. They are raised & slaughtered in Monstrous Environments surrounded with Suffering & Pain. Food Animals deserve Respect, Compassion and as Pain-Free a life as is humanly possible. The Masses should DEMAND it.

[@agisler87]

Totally agree. There is a good discussion to have about ethically raising and slaughtering our livestock. Unfortunately vegans and vegetarians are often a block to this conversation being had because they are against humans having any livestock. It's not realistic.

[@Lozwave]

I wouldn’t force my kids, but there’s no denying you can achieve all essential macro and micro nutrients on a plant based diet etc. there’s nothing essential in meat that you can’t find in plant sources, regardless of how easy/hard or moral etc. when planned correctly its actually better in SOME ways because of the variety. More fibre and your protein sources have less baggage. You also lower your chances of heart disease on a whole foods diet since you have no additional exogenous LDL. The more ldl you introduce to your body the more likely it’s going to oxidise and turn into plaques in the bloodstream. Atherosclerosis etc. this is coming from someone who loves Mongolian/Chinese style 5 spice marinated lamb

[@Felale]

Your first sentence is literally provably false in every way. The rest of what you said sounds like you’ve been brainwashed.

[@lallalucas4145]

Creatine

[@jmass4207]

The whole LDL introduced in the diet spiel shows you have no clue what you're talking about. There's no mechanistic understanding of how animal products raise lipoproteins in the blood (what LDL - low density lipoprotein - is) or how exactly plaques form on artery walls.

[@Lozwave]

@@jmass4207 well there is a linear association the more exogenous ldl you introduce the more ldl oxidise and turns into plaques in your blood stream. So do what you want with that information

[@Lozwave]

@@jmass4207 it’s spiel dude.. ask any leading cardiologist

[@gomezfriesen]

Chris, sorry, I love your podcast, but I have to call out on your podcasting skills here. First, I believe in freedom speech. This man has the right to believe whatever non scientific belief he holds. But if you Chris are going to have him on, and if he claims that raising a child on a plant based diet is child abuse, when it has been studied by hundreds of scientists in extreme detail and found, that a well planned plant based diet, to be fine for all stages of life, then Chris, you better ask a bloody question to get him to thoroughly explain himself! Having adopted children from the foster care system in Canada has taught me a lot about child abuse, and, in particular, neglect of a baby's health with their diet. Also, having gone plant based for my health (I put Ulcerative colitis in remission, got rid of asthma, Iritis, sleep apnea, and high blood pressure. My wife got her periods back, and we had our first biological child after being told 17 years ago that we couldn't), you better damn well believe me that we are raising our son on a very well planned plant based diet. *takes a deep breath* So, when a bro tells me it's child abuse, and conflating the diet with young women who have issues with food and their self image, and use it as an unhealthy way to loose wait, or to brush off the fitness plant based guys, by saying they are taking testosterone, when it's been shown that men on plant based diets have higher testosterone than omnivores and faster recovery times to be able to work out more... I am going to ask him to show me the bodies of evidence that go in direct opposition to what the meta analysis are showing that people who eat a plant based diet live longer, healthier lives with less inflammation. This was a good episode except for this section. Chris, I love your work. I look forward to your podcasts, as they are a light in my 1:20 commute each way. I think you can do better. I know you can. You are outstanding.

[@josephstupar3372]

I have one omnivore child snd one vegan, the vegan one so far has been fatter, smarter. Hasn’t been sick once yet🤷‍♂️

[@JamesTudsbury]

Imagine trying to raise a human-species child, and forcing them to not eat the diet they've evolved to eat.

[@user-uj6td5wj2h]

Imagine living with so much technology that your brain didn’t evolve to require YET… you’re hopelessly useless without it.

[@FilipinaVegana]

I’m not sure of the reason why you mentioned food/diet. The term "VEGAN" refers to the philosophy of avoiding undue harm to any animal life, as far as practical, whilst "vegetarian" is merely someone who consumes a plant-based diet. Therefore, veganism is NOT a diet but a moral or ethical position against animal exploitation of any kind. 🌱

[@baconshow]

We are not adapted to eat flesh. Our teeth function like a mortar to grind seeds and extract oils, not to cut meat. It's simply impossible to bite and cut a piece of raw meat. You can only eat meat relying on spices and seasonings. Otherwise tastes like shit. Our digestive tract is approximately 27 meters long to efficiently absorb oils and fibers. Carnivorous animals, such as lions, have a maximum of 3 meters of digestive tract to prevent meat from rotting inside. Carnivorous animals produce their own vitamin C, which humans cannot do. We have trichromatic vision to identify ripe fruits, a feat carnivores cannot achieve.. From a scientific and anthropological perspective, our hands are evolutionarily designed for gathering, not tearing into flesh. Cris engaging with individuals spreading misinformation.

[@Opal5674]

​@@baconshowIf your ancestors hadn't eaten meat you wouldn't be here to type this comment.

[@WinstonSmithGPT]

No. It’s a mental illness.

[@MarcusUnread]

“A paper” 📄

[@luke7842]

I havent watched the whole thing yet but I can say if he really thinks what the title suggests then he is extremely misinformed on the field of nutrition.

[@Mr_Ashley]

My cats vegan, he told me.

[@brentpeddy4223]

🤣🤣🤣

[@pjevo1850]

Mind boggling. The premise that a vegan diet is nutrient-deficient is simply wrong. Yes, animal food sources are the most nutrient dense, but that comes at a big cost, one which many that adhere to this 'silly ideology' are simply not willing to pay. I do wonder if Mr. Lugavere has contacted or consulted with any nutritionists specializing in pregnant women, babies, and kids, with experience in veganism, just to hear what they have to say on the matter. I don't think he did, however, because he would have his 'child abuse' comment dismissed and ridiculed, but he would also learn that it is absolutely possible to do it. I'm fairly certain he also skipped on doing some basic statistics research online, which would also alleviate his concerns. Is it more difficult? Yes, because there is less of those nutrient-dense foods, but there are plenty of nutrients in plant-based foods, and many things can be supplemented. Supplements, by the way, would be just as necessary for an omnivorous pregnant woman or child. Are there differences between omnivorous and vegan children in terms of development outcomes? Also yes, but they are not so significant for parents not to be able to adjust and supplement, neither are they in any way concerning. It was shown in studies many times that health-wise, vegan children can be just as healthy. However, because it's more difficult, it's also easier to do it wrong, which is how you get articles about 'vegan parents kill baby'. It wasn't veganism that killed the baby, it was the parents being insufficiently informed. Just like Mr. Lugavere. Eat what you want, have your kid eat what you want as long as they're healthy, but don't push your biases on others. That, of course, goes both ways.

[@rayaqin]

It is easier to have the opinion stated in this video, so people are hungry for videos where it is stated as the right opinion. It will be difficult to fight this attitude.

[@WinstonSmithGPT]

Veganism cannot fail, it can only be failed. 😂😂😂

[@williammentink]

Do you mean to respond: A well supplemented (planned) vegan diet can be a healthy life long way of eating.

[@pjevo1850]

@@williammentink Absolutely.

[@MarcusUnread]

This.

[@TheUltraGamer98]

there is something to be said about credibility. This guy is not a doctor or a dietician. I don't value his opinion more that any other goofle researcher I mean why give him a platform in the first place?

[@maz1988]

Forcing your kids into religion is also abuse. Let them decide for themselves.

[@ridesharegold6659]

I was born on a hippie commune in the mid-1970s. I've been vegetarian since then. Not vegan. I eat eggs. I eat dairy. Love me some whey protein. But honestly, it's still a real pain in the ass sometimes and I've been doing it my whole life.. It's way easier now than it used to be, but I've never been interested in trying to be vegan. It seems totally miserable. I've tried all their foods. That's no way to live. It just takes all the joy out of life. Not to mention that friends who have tried it always end up looking like crap and quitting.

[@alexanderdeadmansche]

Who is the guest? He is a scientist or author or something

[@lachyfreestone9311]

Just a bro. Waiting for some actual science to come out his mouth

[@brianconnor7940]

Well, he does have a degree *checks notes* in film and psychology. Jeeeeeezus

[@alvarez.l9422]

To each their own. I eat meat and if you don’t, more power to you. We shouldn’t lower the definition of child abuse to a non meat diet.

[@RyuBateson218]

I don't eat meat and you do. That doesn't mean we should throw insults at each other and look at each other as second class humans. People are far too quick putting someone with different ideals in the "enemy" category.

[@samengelage3521]

​@@RyuBateson218I eat meat, and I agree with you. We shouldn't condemn each other over what we eat.

[@RyuBateson218]

@@samengelage3521 unless it's pineapple on pizza obviously.

[@samengelage3521]

@@RyuBateson218 on second thought, we might be enemies after all.

[@RyuBateson218]

@@samengelage3521 on a more serious note. I do consider not eating meat to be a good thing because of the world food distribution and animal welfare. But I also consider joining the army, helping elderly, buying slave free clothes, charity work, being a good neighbour etc to be good things. To only focus one one thing to determine if you think someone is a good person or not is just cheap. There are so many ways to do good.

[@alphacause]

Assuming you know nothing about dietary science, as parents, you should always error on the side of caution. What you have, in your child, is too precious to use a lab rat for your ideology. When trying to maximize the well being of your children, you should choose the option that has the longest track record of success. Numerous societies have flourished on omnivorous diets since time immemorial. A handful of groups have had moderate success on vegetarian diets, but even these plant heavy diets include animal products like milk, cheese, butter and eggs. Most of these vegetarian societies are shorter, smaller framed, and are prone to diabetes at lower body weights (i.e. Indians). NO SOCIETIES exist that have thrived *exclusively* on a vegan diet, where citizens *only* consume plants from cradle to the grave. Only an immoral parent would choose to experiment on their children with a diet that has not been time tested.

[@emilydarrall6693]

Then we shouldn't do anything new ever for our children? if it's healthy for adults?

[@alphacause]

@@emilydarrall6693 Do things new, when the older options have proven to be wholly lacking.

[@emilydarrall6693]

@@alphacause its not a great rule for progress, and very subjective. I agree that you shouldn't treat your child like an experiment but I don't think this qualifies as that. There's no nutrients a human needs to consume that is only found in animal products, it's not like babies need different nutrients or their chemistry is different, so its really not an experiment to decide to feed a baby a vegan diet. plus nowadays there is research on it so even if you believed it was initially, its not so much anymore

[@MisterMonsterMan]

Just my own experience here, but my wife and I have a friend couple that are vegan and their kids are the same age as ours, in the same school as ours and their 2 vegan boys (9 &12) are, by far, the smallest, meekest and weakest boys in their classes. My 9 yr old son would toy with the 12 year old boy if they ever got into a physical altercation. I dont know the science behind it, but the real world results stare me in the face almost daily and its pretty stark.

[@jmass4207]

"Meekest" that's the point.

[@Doofie1990]

My baby is 9 months old but the size of an average 1 year old. She is a chonky breastfed vegan baby 😊

[@indef2def]

Selection bias sure is a helluva drug, isn't it?

[@georgettekolkman5622]

Totally agree with Max. I have two words for those who want to mess with mother nature - GOOD LUCK! 😊

[@GordonPavilion]

Mother Nature? Where is Mother Nature when it comes to the industrialisation of animals? Where is Mother Nature to be found at the Slaughter House?

[@Kopite96]

Ye factory farming and deforestation really is mother nature.

[@indef2def]

You know what the chickens "mother nature" put on Earth look like compared with nearly all of the farmed chickens shaped by humans, right? Hint: the former not only didn't have their legs break under their own weight, but they could actually fly.

[@lennarto5716]

Anyone know the study he is referring to ? Exact name ? Thanks

[@Doofie1990]

BS

[@DLC1990]

Find it yourself. You have the internet in your hands. Plus they cite sources in the vid.

[@rockysage7760]

Hundreds of millions of Indians are vegans. 😅

[@themeangene]

And look at the rate of malnutrition in India and subsequent diseases

[@kurtniznik8116]

10:05 Nailed it. Young vegans don't impress me. Show me someone who has been vegan for 20+ years and is still fully healthy, that is super rare and very hard to do.

[@artshoey]

I think pregnancy is a crucial part to highlight because so much development goes on there, especially brain. For instance, I heard that the choline they mentioned is great for pregnancy and might possibly be effective in curbing autism, so when I was pregnant, I asked my doctor about supplementing it and she told me just to eat a boiled egg every day to get that nutrient.

[@darrenhanes4822]

When asked what would happen to a child who is lacking in "many of the sort of things" that a vegan diet would cause there to be a bereft scarcity of, Max responded with a tone that indicated that he was going to start talking in bullet points and give us the list of nutritional problems with this diet (something that both sides of this argument are guilty of). He then went on to say "stunted development" and "failure to thrive". Elaborating on these "two" points would ultimately come to mean the same thing. This was followed by the tanjent on nutrionism and ultra-processed food - nothing to do with the question. This answer was clearly indicative of his issue with the "silly ideology" and had zero scientific or nutritional backing. Zero. "Abuse" is a strong term for something that you can't prove is harmful. This stance is purely based on blind faith.

[@ratttttyyy]

This shouldn't be profound or even contentious. Your ancestors have eaten meat for 9 million years. Of course bringing them up vegan will be unhealthy.

[@cc1drt]

all the comments are ad hominem attacks and none are criticizing the ideas or arguments. Cringe asf

[@chimp09]

it's funny that the first comment under this comment is someone criticizing the ideas and arguments.

[@emilydarrall6693]

It's so cruel to tell a mother she's abusing her child when she's not, if you think she is doing something less that optimally, there are so many better ways to express that that don't involve levying an accusation of a horrible crime against the person she loves most. So disgusting and wrong

[@Alaskaventureswithbrodie]

Your killing your kids giving them meat and dairy and starting them on that horrible health habit. If I could go back I would have never given my kids meat and dairy. I hope Chris you have more opposing arguments instead of carnivores. This guy is a joke

[@yukonfire]

Been mostly carnivore for over 4 years and I feel the best I ever have my whole life. Lost 60 pounds and stopped having autoimmune issues

[@Doofie1990]

Yeah but what about your heart health though…

[@yukonfire]

@Doofie1990 it's the carbs and sugar that cause heart issues. Check out Dr.Paul Mason, Dr. Ken Berry, Dr. Shawn Baker.

[@josephgill7410]

I’ve done keto before but unfortunately a major life event stopped me dead in my tracks but I am looking at going keto/ carnivore, I never felt so good in my life for a few weeks, no depression, no anxiety for 3 day, massively reduced inflammation in my body, tons and tons of energy was like a 6 year on sugar I could feel my heart health improve massively. I’ve suffered with anxiety since being a toddler and got diagnosed with ptsd 5+ years ago. It’s not everyone I get it but I am not shoving my experiences and beliefs down other people’s throats and I respect what they eat whether it’s deemed healthy or not .

[@yukonfire]

@josephgill7410 nice! I'm not dogmatic about it but believe it would probably help most people health/weight wise.

[@sachinraghavan4556]

Veganism doesn't have much clout but generations of vegetarians have existed throughout history. Breastfeeding is perfectly fine as a vegan, children don't need animal dairy once they're on solid food, that's just biology. Of course other vegan advocates know more about nutritional intake but it's provable that children don't need meat, as millions throughout India history have lived without it from birth to death.

[@slashkeyAI]

Let's jump on the "vegans are dumb hur hur hur" bandwagon for views!

[@WinstonSmithGPT]

What’s next? The gravity is real bandwagon?

[@calacestar]

Exactly. This is very sad to see. Especially considering that there were many historical periods in human civilazations where a meat based diet was simply non-existent. This is still the case to some extent in the Hindu community. I personally was raised vegetarian. Even vegan wouldn't have been an issue. It's not a question of omnivore, carnivore, or vegan. It's a question of healthy food or not!

[@GarudaLegends]

They are though

[@Daniel-vl8zm]

Atleast the comment section seems to have some sense of balance. Veganism isn't some 'silly ideology'. It's someone trying to make an ethical choice to reduce the amount of suffering in the world. You absolutely can be perfectly healthy and thrive on a vegan diet, at all ages. Theres just a lot of baggage that comes with the word vegan. Look at it from an objective perspective. You can get all the nutrients you need, and thrive on plants, and there's plenty of both anecdotal proof through people and academic proof.

[@themeangene]

Veganism doesn't reduce suffering lol. Domesticated animals in the West live like kings. Furthermore growing fruits and vegetables for human consumption requires pesticides far more lethal than crops for animals

[@NathanSavageDamage]

​@@themeangeneLive like kings? This is how It is like for most of them btw: Mother pigs are put into cages that a so small that they can't around. Chickens live in tiny cages and their legs break from how many eggs they've been made to lay. Cows have their babies taken from them and they suffer psychological stress from it. Now that's what I call luxury.

[@Chelletryingtosmile]

Vegan. No thank you! We have a good varied diet (including organic meats, fruit and veg). Cook most evening meals from scratch for my family. We're all healthy and have no allergies.

[@leviotten]

great. So he has no actual evidence of anything. lol, lmao even.

[@chimp09]

Why should I care about nutrient density?

[@Greenmanure62]

Max is right.

[@ActiveGamingUK]

what a mong

[@runswithwindz9875]

What do you mean ?

[@MrJesseBell]

Silly ideology? Where’s the conclusive evidence?