The BBC just made it even harder to ride a bike in safety

[@martindoonan198]

You've made the same basic mistake that the BBC made in this debate, and that is to lump in the electric powered mopeds (those with a high powered motor & throttle) with e-bikes (EAPC as defined in law). From gov.uk: "If a bike meets the EAPC requirements it’s classed as a normal pedal bike. This means you can ride it on cycle paths and anywhere else pedal bikes are allowed." "Any electric bike that does not meet the EAPC rules is classed as a motorcycle or moped and needs to be registered and taxed. You’ll need a driving licence to ride one and you must wear a crash helmet." Where EAPCs are subject to the power, throttle & assist limits you describe. If we want the proper debate about the benefits of EAPCs, then we all need to talk about the same thing. Properly differentiating in between assisted pedal bikes & electric mopeds/motorbikes would be a good start. In terms of cracking down on the electric mopeds, proper enforcement of the existing laws on type approval & registration would help. These are not "illegal bicycles", they are not bicycles at all.

[@barrybloye]

Spot on - the term 'e-bike' certainly causes a lot of confusion. I'd say the distinction between an assisted pedal bike and an electric-powered motorcycle is pretty clear on paper, but not so much in the public conscience. I did feel this was addressed in the discussion, though the lack of a solid distinction in the doc muddies the conversation somewhat. As you say, we all need to talk about the same thing!

[@MapdecVodcast]

Yes. Very true. We did miss this. The fact you can disable a throttle doesn’t make a motorbike a bicycle.

[@peterthomas8053]

Yep, agree about the term 'e bike' being used for throttle operated ones, which should definately be termed as 'electric motorcycles'. Also, we all need to be singing from the same hyme sheet. Max permitted speeds for e bikes in the Uk, is currently 15.5mph(or even 15.53mph), not as quoted more than once in this debate '15 mph' by one panel member and '16 mph' by another. Please don't take my last comment as a critiscism, it was purely just an observation. It just highlights the general confusion of what many people percieve to be 'the law on e bikes'. p.s. Enjoyed the debate.

[@bonnie115]

@peterthomas8053 If you're picking hairs - 15.5 mph is not the maximum permitted speed for e-bikes. It's the maximum assistance speed. My e-bike, like ordinary bikes, easily exceeds that speed when going down even slight inclines with no assistance or pedalling.

[@peterthomas8053]

@bonnie115 Yep, you're quite correct. I should have said 'maximum speed with pedal assist'. I'm going to stand in the corner.😉

[@urouroniwa]

The other day I was riding up one of my training hills that has gradients of upwards of 12%. I caught up with an older guy (I'm nearly 60 and he was a lot older than me, so maybe in his 80s?) on an ebike. I had a bit of a chat with him and he said he didn't really see himself as a cyclist, but he just thought "I wonder where that road goes..." and off he went. He told me where he came from and I guess we was doing 30 or 40 km that day. Not just riding by motor, but he said he was pedaling as much as he could. The look on his face was incredible. Just indescribable joy. I'm sold on ebikes now.

[@losbastardosmtb]

They’re no less danger than mobility scooters or cars mate so enjoy

[@HenryNewbury]

This is brilliant ❤

[@progrockrules]

I'm 66 - I got my bike 2 years ago - shall I shant I kinda thing - it's been the BEST thing I ever did. I exercise regularly - I'm out in ALL weathers here in the UK - clocked up thousands of miles - now I wouldn't have considered a 'normal' bike - but my little fatbike is BRILLIANT! - just because it's got a motor doesn't mean you dont work at it - I love it. I live in a beautiful part of the UK and have so enjoyed actually SEEING where I live for the first time! Just be courteous to others - get mirrors - and heated gloves!!

[@markm3384]

Shock horror, the BBC once again produced a poor piece of work which is biased and only push the story they want. What an absolute waste of the TV licence.

[@0-60.tests.with.Passengers]

Well said, the BBC is a dodgy,untrustworthy outfit.

[@Cycle.every.day.]

The BBC have been captured.

[@mattwoodford1820]

It is a government department

[@andrewnorris5415]

They have the greatest budget on any news organisation in the world. Yet rarely get to the bottom of things, biased journos, agendas driven from top and the hiring. See the Chomsky Marr interview.

[@NeilLavitt]

The discussion is about e-bikes, not whether the BBC is biased. It’s flawed analysis for sure, but labelling an entire network is not useful.

[@JC-un4bg]

The speed limits pisses me of . 18mph would do . 20 mph would be perfect. The government wants greener travel. E-bikes fit that perfectly.

[@ChayceLuxford-x4b]

💯 especially around cars who give no fucks about cyclists

[@mikerobutube]

There is a legal distinction between an e-bike and an electric motorbike so how many of the "illegal e-bikes" are actually electric motorbikes where the rider isn't following the requirements for those - license, insurance, registered with DVLA, license plates etc? Or has the horse bolted and everything will be referred to as an "e-bike", even electric motorbikes? Another point is the lack of responsibility of the delivery companies have for the behaviour of the riders. I suppose it is a consequence of the "gig economy" where it is convenient for the delivery companies to employ people to do the work, but with none of the responsibility there would be for an employer and a full time employee.

[@smudger404]

The bias was pretty shocking. Chiles started off by even saying he's never been on an e-bike before, so you knew his knowledge was non existent and probably some anti cycling researcher came up with a concept and the Beeb put Chiles on the tele. No discussion with legit shops, e-bike owners who do the school run/local shopping. The whole point they focussed on illegal usage and modified bikes being ridden badly, which in my eyes is no different to the dozens of shows on the Police chasing bad drivers often found on Channel 5. e-bike assistance is 15.5mph(25kph) pedal assist no more than 250Watts. The death stats were also badly represented. The newspaper person they spoke to posed the question on "will it take the death of a child to do something" on the dangers of electric bikes. But, hey, the very next day a 9 month old is killed by a car driver. Yet, no geo fenced speed limits, no drink drive/valid license technology exists before someone gets in their car.

[@MapdecVodcast]

Truth. The death of children by cars is under reported. It should be daily headline news.

[@nickholmes2464]

Just enforce the law !!! . Register any work related bike so it can be traced if ridden illegally. Prosecute illegal sales

[@frankspeakmore7104]

You really don't know how difficult that is.

[@RodgerRamjet-s8g]

@@frankspeakmore7104Personally I do appreciate how difficult this is to enforce however this does not mean that the law should not be enforced. If people are left thinking there are no consequences due to zero enforcement they will carry on breaking the rules.

[@mikewood9284]

Electric motorbikes are all the rage around here, Surron and the like, ridden by balaclava'd up hoodlum's at insane speeds on roads, public spaces, basically anywhere, no plates, little to no effort by the police to stop them although appreciate it's not easy.

[@badabing8884]

Exactly they are motorbikes and the bbc were showing them as e-bikes.

[@kevinjones3900]

Same by me we have lots of mountains and out of the way places. But they choose the village. They think of daddy's range rover which also ain't seen dirt.

[@JohnChristopher-k7u]

The panel should also understand that it is possible to build an e-MTB with say a Bafang motor and battery conversion kit and still end up with a bike that is both perfectly legal and safe. Tarring all none branded bikes with the same brush isn’t a solution especially for a person who cannot afford now the £3k in purchasing a branded bike with branded components. If LBS are unable to touch servicing these bikes then you can bet somebody else will fill that vacuum.

[@ebikescrapper3925]

In the UK, electric bikes (ebikes) with throttles are legal if the throttle only assists the rider without pedaling up to a maximum speed of 3.7 mph. This is known as "walk start". Explanation Starting throttle assistance The throttle cuts off when the bike is moving without pedaling at over 3.7 mph. Pedal assistance If the rider pedals, the throttle can provide electric assistance up to 15.5 mph. Full-speed throttle Bikes sold before January 1, 2016 may have a full-speed throttle, which is legal. Other ebike laws in the UK The motor must have a maximum power of 250Wh. The motor must stop assisting when the bike reaches 15.5 mph. You must be 14 or older. Helmets are recommended but not mandatory. You can ride them anywhere a non-assisted bicycle is allowed.

[@markwhalebone751]

I have an legal ebike apart from a it's throttle which is a godsend to get me up to my normal riding speed of about 9mph. I see no reason as to why the legal throttle speed is capped at 3.7mph and not 15.5mph.

[@bobrogers7004]

This is discussion between people with a vested interest in selling ebikes. As a cyclist and occasional pedestrian, the issue is illegal migrants delivering junk food on llegal Chinese ebikes causing mayhem.

[@MapdecVodcast]

We don’t sell e-bikes. We do maintain them within UK law and the restrictions of trading standards and our insurance though.

[@ebikescrapper3925]

You are a Bosch ebike systems dealer. I enjoy your videos but sometimes it comes across that you put all Chinese ebike manufacturers under the same bad umbrella.

[@doormat321]

To address Jake's comment, in cities illegal ebikes far outweigh legal ones at least in quantity of journeys. Half the bikes on the road are delivery people. To address Paul's comment. The speed limit on roads doesn't apply to cyclists. It's guidance for cycles, they have to be going a safe speed and in control but no specific speed. Thanks for having this conversation.

[@sandy_knight]

Can confirm both these points. I live in SW London and literally every journey I'll be spinning along at 16mph (I know how fast my single speed goes on the flat, just a bit faster than my mate's legal e-bike, much to his annoyance) and getting overtaken by a delivery rider going twice the speed and not pedalling! Also, as doormat321 said, legally speed limits don't apply to bicycles but you're still supposed to be riding safely, it's basically the same as applies to cars on the German Autobahn.

[@markwhalebone751]

All the laws are there but not enforced.

[@ramborambokitchenkitchen6357]

no resources either

[@ViscountCharles]

The industry cannot now grumble about negative publicity when it completely failed to ensure that the EAPC regulations were properly brought in and enforced. I'm a cyclist and also carried out a *legal* conversion to my partner's bicycle. But I work in Birmingham city centre and I'm genuinely fearful about the number of illegal electric motorbikes zipping around - both during my commute in, but especially in the pedestrianised areas. These things are big, heavy, 30mph+ mini-motorbikes, being ridden at speed by people who aren't insured or trained. The number of legal EAPCs I see in Birmingham city centre? Nil. Because the industry allowed itself to be utterly wrong-footed by sales from China, undercutting the legal EAPCs in terms of price. And social media is a part of the problem. There are lots of popular channels here on KZbin where the presenter will be talking up how easy it is to "unlock", how much performance the latest models have, how fast they can go. As you say, this needed WAY more education, and WAY more enforcement fight from the outset, especially at the entry ports. Now? Too little, too late, and the horse has long since bolted from the stable. And sorry, but I do not buy the advice that "faster is safer". It's cobblers from a car perspective, so is almost certainly cobblers when talking about bikes. When I'm on my bike, what puts me at risk is not the fact that I'll be riding at about 15mph, but all the impatient, careless drivers. Allowing me to go faster won't change them.

[@nickbateman3566]

Good points. What about the dealers responsibilities. Halfords of all people sell a lot of 'off road' scooters. Lots of dealers are happy to unrestrict bikes. E bays is happy to host the sale of dangerous illegal bikes.

[@frankspeakmore7104]

Well said.

[@kentonian]

Yes it does change them, they won’t be fighting to squeeze past if you are going the same speed as the rest of the traffic. Also if in turning right it’s much safer to indicate and move over if similar speed to the cars.

[@aston108]

That BBC show was rubbish, just poor, cheap, lazy journalism.

[@JohnChristopher-k7u]

The Lime bikes in London are the urban equivalent of vermin on two wheels.

[@JC-un4bg]

😂😂😂 perfect

[@TucanoTMK1]

about time the bbc was done away with.and the tv license as well.

[@peterbedford2610]

My dream of getting safer bike infrastructure may finally be realized if we can triple bike users by adding ebikes

[@JC-un4bg]

E-bikes that can do 20 would be safer . As their is no real reason for overtaking

[@markrskinner]

If only they'd do a docu about the 5 people killed by car drivers EVERY day. But no, people just shrug.

[@MapdecVodcast]

So true.

[@stephankoehler800]

This comment -alas we are in the auto normative age.

[@funkychickenthesecond2102]

Mistake number 1: watching or listening to anything produced by the BBC.

[@a1white]

I actually agreed with BBC panorama programme. If you cycle in London now the biggest menace is no illegal e-bikes (effectively electric motorbikes). Adrian Chiles came out at the end in favour of e-bikes. The problem is the majority of the e-bike you see ridden by delivery riders are these ridiculous throttle assist things with the chain and pedals seemingly for decoration. I have to take evasive action to avoid being hit by them numerous times. How long before these things hit and kill a small child and then all e-bikes are vilified?

[@BigDuke6ixx]

The government want to make money out of ebikes, so expect to have to pass a test, be registered, insured, taxed and have something like an MOT by 2029.

[@marksmith3089]

I'm 57 , lived In and around Oxford all my life.. ridden, bmx, freedride, trails ,xc, gravel & Ss for city life. Education 😢 is the key here under the spires.. 90%of road #"ebikes" here are ridden by foreign nationals for the delivery services fact !! , 5% are by OCG to carry out there shifty business .. so uneducated or those playing the system against its self . (Police on limited /legal ebikes never gonna caatch a drug dealer on a modified) and for the uni crew they are on analogue cycles but not ppe or lighting and thats being the since I've be riding these streets from late 70's . Thats not changed...

[@workshopninjathe1st]

I live in Portland Oregon, a lot of final mile delivery here is done using e-trikes with the equivalent of a small delivery van box on the back. They have a massive motor and battery (in the region of 1kW) but max speed of around 20mph. They are for me the logical conclusion of the delivery vehicle.

[@paulstuart9465]

Why would a government and its agencies make a regulation or law to prohibit the use of overpowered e-bikes and not heavily fine those selling them. I would add that a legally compliant e-bike, any motor vehicle or even bicycle in the hands of someone irresponsible or malicious is dangerous.

[@ebikescrapper3925]

They don't give the police and trading standards to check the law is being upheld.

[@ebikescrapper3925]

Enough money

[@Thezuule1]

Because it's perfectly legal to buy an overpowered e-bike to ride on the trails and such.

[@ebikescrapper3925]

You can ride an illegal ebike only on private land.

[@Thezuule1]

@@ebikescrapper3925 which plenty of people do. It's no different from a dirt bike or an ATV. The bike itself isn't illegal, operating it on a road is.

[@fitzt70]

BMW advertises an e-bike that has integrated GPS system that detects the road you’re on and can adjust your speed limiting. It also s called the iVision Amby.

[@cashtimevideo1501]

As an e-bike owner, I think all UK e-bikes should legally have a throttle, delivering full power for a few seconds, to assist acceleration from traffic light stops, safely clear junctions, or to avoid risky situations etc.. And increase the maximum PAS speed to 20mph. The law was obviously written without full consultation. I would have liked to have watched the Panorama episode, but I'm not a BBC 'subscriber', so therefore cannot access iplayer content...

[@stephankoehler800]

Obesity, sedentary lifestyles, air pollution, noise pollution, road congestion. These are all big problems of our day, especially in cities. Seems panorama just did another piece about bikes or ebikes that doesn't address the wider problems that too much motor traffic creates. Was it sponsored by the motor industry?

[@jsrides2065]

I’ve an ebike but riding on the road is a nightmare yes maybe faster than a normal push bike but still vulnerable where vehicles are concerned so pavement in some places is a must and there are signs for bikes and pedestrians painted on the tarmac and yes we all need to be considerate the use of a bell or horn to alert pedestrians and riding responsibly.

[@sigaar109]

I was shocked how pporly informed that documentary was…(living on the continent so i was still under the impression the BBC was a quality channel…)

[@pault1289]

Didn't see the Panorama, but will search it out. Great conversation and good points made.

[@Thezuule1]

It's linked right in the description.

[@ebikescrapper3925]

Government figures 2023 there were 199 ebike fires recorded out of a total list of fire incidents of 591,676. Ebike fires were about one in 3000 of the fires in the UK. To be exact, in 2023, for every e-bike fire there were 2973 fires due to other causes.

[@michaeltilney1298]

Ebike fires are still quite rare but there were far fewer ebikes in 2023 than there are now and more importantly, the events are rare but the consequenses are very serious. Imagine an ebike battery catching fire in a high rise apartment.

[@ebikescrapper3925]

All ebikes and ebike conversion kits should be provided with a charger and battery fireproof bag. Fireproof boxes are better than bags but more expensive.

[@mattwoodford1820]

Wrt batteries and fires, it very much depends on the type of battery. The older Lithium Polymer and Lithium Ion batteries (like the ones in your mobiles, action cameras etc) are more prone to thermal runaway than the newer LiFePO4 batteries so ensuring you only get the Lithium Ferrous Phosphate batteries greatly reduces this risk and they need to be recharged in a controlled manner so that all the cells are balanced. Statistics can be delivered in a way to provide the picture required because if you look at bike fires, you'll likely find the majority of bike fires are e bike fires. Theres definitely a fear agenda with some of these sensationalised productions to create fear anger and hate in a weird world where actually what we all need more of is love

[@monowheeling]

Simple solution: it should obviously be illegal to sell bikes which are not street legal without a big red sign that they are not street legal. If the customer has not been provably informed about the street illegality of the bike, the contract should be void and the seller have to give back the money.

[@stevenkillington5041]

If they are selling them they must be legally useable

[@lewisworralll1563]

The problem is the BBC only talked to a swivel-eyed bicycling hating journo from the Torygraph that uses 'pedestrian safety concerns' to attack all types of cycling, because he actually loves cars and doesn't want to share the roads.

[@mikerobutube]

100% Every week Steve Bird writes a story in the Torygraph about ANYTHING that he claims will make driving difficult whether that is bike lanes, restrictions on driving along certain roads, drivers being fined by local councils. It is just clickbait for car-brained Torygraph readers.

[@chuntsang2564]

Even if you wanted to insure and tax and make it road legal where’s the information if any that allows you to do that , fitting indicators , mirrors etc will be almost impossible to do .

[@andreemurray7039]

E-bike are great but the problem is the illegal e-bikes and the speed but over all they get people using a bike

[@siriosstar4789]

E-bikes have already "won". i'm 79 and stopped riding regular bikes at around 70. i thought that was it for me until my wife told me about e bikes . i jumped on one and my legs immediately felt ten years younger . i now have a collection of four bikes from the first bosch to the CX and now on a Nox from austria with the BMZ motor 112 nm . E bikes are here to stay !

[@adophgraphytheartandscienc8426]

Firstly, most people DO know the legalities and choose to ignore them (mostly, actually nearly always, men). Secondly, in London, the vast majority of eBikes are illegal.

[@TheLaughingdonkey]

The 250W limit is fine for generally flat urban areas however those of us who live in hilly rural areas need around 500W in order to even maintain 3mph pedalling up hills. We shouldn't confuse torque with speed and the 250W limit is discriminatory especially against heavier people in hilly areas where legal ebikes are mostly useless. 500W @ 15.5 MPH would seem reasonable and if fast accelleration is a problem it could also be electronically limited. In the UK we have such low limits on ebikes that I'm not surprised that bikes made for a worldwide market need heavy restrictions for the UK. The UK's harsh restrictions also probably cause more people to break the law. Illegal delivery bikes should either be completely removed from the road or should be type approved/insured/mot'd as they are mopeds and clearly defined in law. This is a policing issue and us legal ebikers shouldn't be compared to them. These companies are making money and they should accept what their responsibilities are. It would be very easy to police this but it has not been done. I think that panorama program was pathetic and sought to cause division, anxiety and hatred on the roads. Panorama used to be a proper program with quality investigative journalism and I'm going to complain to the BBC about it. I also feel if a pedestrian steps out in front of any vehicle without giving it adequate stopping distance then the blame should clearly be on the pedestrian. If the law states otherwise then we're all going to need dash/bike cameras to protect ourselves.

[@psychoal1967]

My issues with e-bikes are:- Many are e-mopeds (with a throttle). Many have excess power and speed. The above are frequently ridden by non-brits that do not know the rules of the road, and have never read the Highway Code. And when riding this type of bike you need to have them registered, insured, taxed, have a number plate and wear a proper motorcycle approved helmet and not use cycle lanes or footpaths. Who is allowing the importation into this country? They should be ceased on entry and the importers prosecuted.

[@leightonbohl1920]

An interesting discussion of what it seems is an inadequately regulated market. An e-bike that is not a motorbike is simply a motor assisted bike, and they’ve been around for a long time. I remember the Solex bikes that filled the streets of Paris in the 60s. Think two stroke instead of two hundred watts. Great for urban getting about. But an e-bike is so much better! What is lacking is road infrastructure to safeguard the pedestrian and the cyclist, and some instructional rules in the Highway Code. Not a terribly difficult thing to do - though the road bit may be a bit problematic. I know at least three large potholes on Paletine Rd in Manchester that have been there since 1976!

[@kentonian]

You falling into the same nanny state trap. You want to ban things willy nilly. Thousands ride their e-bikes off road almost the whole time. Besides You can fit almost any electric motor to a bike, where will this nanny state end? I mean I can buy a motor and controller for rc car well over 250w 😂

[@ramborambokitchenkitchen6357]

i don't get why the host acted so scared of the bikes when he was seen multiple times on the show riding a high powered motorcycle capable of well over 100mph. just strange is all.

[@MapdecVodcast]

Terrible acting

[@ramborambokitchenkitchen6357]

@ and that bit in the woods where he is acting like travelling at breakneck speeds, then it cuts to the speedo and he’s only doing 27mph. Does he only ride his motorbike in wales or something 😂

[@hbguitar]

I caught the panorama programme and noticed the bias. If anything it made me want to attempt a diy e-bike build 😂

[@denisrogers4358]

Simple question…. (Mountain E-bike, on forest trails are everywhere) Many “hack” the governors for max top speed. Has anyone checked the temperature of Li batteries /motors to see how hot they get ? How do you extinguish an E-bike fire…?!? You can’t.

[@Thierry-in-Londinium]

Talk about the BBC programme framing. The headline for the content "eBike; The battle for our streets" suggests & automatically presupposes that there is some kind of conflict between the bikes & other road users. That is wrong - from the start! You have to really talk about Britain's systemic issues - Obesity & road congestion/net zero. We MUST find a way to tackle our health issues & weight loss. Biking (in all its forms) is defintely a part of that. Taking exercise - whenever possible is positive. Bikes are 100x more efficient & greener than cars. We have to embrace + encourage those outcomes.

[@emmabird9745]

I really don't know what the hang up is with throttles. Providing all the other restrictions are in place, the rider cannot do anything they couldn't do without it, except perhaps hill starts would be easier/safer with less risk of a missed pedal etc. I can easily ride my non-ebike without pedalling, until I get to the bottom of the hill that is.

[@RodgerRamjet-s8g]

The throttle is the part that effectively differentiates a bicycle from a motor bicycle. You can legally have throttle control on a lot of e-bikes on the road today. You will however have to register, insure and tax them and that is the part people want to ignore. I would love to run one of my motorbikes without registration however how far do you think I would get before being caught and prosecuted?

[@Hexx_Iztenze]

​@RodgerRamjet-s8g although I see what you are saying, I feel there is a huge difference between a motorbike and an Ebike with a throttle if that throttle is capped. Anything over the legal limit, of course, should be treated differently to a simple ebike or bicycle. There are E bicycles and E motorbikes. If it set to the legal standards, such as the limited speed of 15mph, limited motor and has pedals etc I don't see why it should need to be registered as it would still be a bicycle. The 40mph+ things should of course be registered as they are closer to a motorbike and need to follow the same rules as one. A throttled bicycle set to a limit of 15mph could assist so many less able bodied people. Cycling can be good for mental wellbeing not just physical. What really is the difference between me pedalling and someone with leg issues pressing a button? I don't feel a throttle should be the differentiation rather the speed of the throttle and the power of the motor etc.

[@RodgerRamjet-s8g]

⁠​⁠​⁠@@Hexx_IztenzeI can sympathise with those in the unfortunate position where they are unable to use a conventional bicycle however they can still use various low powered bicycles with throttles as long as they register them..This is also the case for low powered mopeds (Solex/Raleigh) with pedal assist, throttles and a top speed around 15/16mph,why should this change just because the power source has?

[@emmabird9745]

@@Hexx_Iztenze I totally agree, my point entirely.

[@Paul9]

Only the BBC itself and people over about 65 actually take the ‘journalism’ from be BBC seriously anymore so I wouldn’t worry too much. From recently being in a city centre, the issue isn’t the e-bikes, it’s cretins on e-bikes, like with anything they get their hands on, they’re not going to obey the laws.

[@michaelnedsmar9106]

The BBC promotes drill rapping but slags off ebikes !

[@ashleystyles6888]

A 1000w ebike delimited Will do a maximum of 30mph. I did that on a Raleigh grifter that I had fitted a Speedo to. Hardly death defying.

[@andrewflies9119]

Why is a throttle illegal? How is it dangerous or unsafe compared to peddling the bike? If it is unsafe to have a throttle, is a motor bike unsafe?

[@andrewflies9119]

How do you know a battery is dangerous without testing it? How do you know the quantity of the welding, the bms safety parameters by the bike just rolling through the door? There is many batteries of various capacities used in vehicle, homes that are safe to use. Don’t make blank statements like the BBC

[@styleyK]

The BBC are notorious for biased, poorly researched knee jerk reporting. I am neither for or against e-bikes. I have a hard tail mounting bike that I love, but at 53 climbing hills is getting harder so one day I may get one or get a conversion kit. I want facts and balanced well researched data on it, so as a member of the public I can have and informed opinion.. and make decisions based on good research, and not emotional opinions.

[@Motorizedstuff]

All i said was what would be worse to be hit by a car or a bike or a scooter

[@CDSeater]

I've just watched the Panorama program, people will take from this that E-bikes are all bad and dangerous. (so wrong) There's a big difference between Legal E-bikes and Illegal E-bikes. If you're riding an Illegal E-bike then you're breaking the law. Most people who ride E-bikes are sensible with the 25km cut-out they don't move any faster than many cyclists who cycle with a normal road bike. The general point should be how to ride safely in the environment you're in. If you're on a shared pedestrian/cycle path you should be very aware of people.

[@forzauk1]

Just ban the bodge job ebike with throttles nothing wrong with pedal assisted bikes

[@Thezuule1]

The issue is they're perfectly fine to ride off road. There is an actual use case for trail riding and stuff. Same as any other dirt bike that isn't road legal.

[@Alex-md6bu]

Let’s be fair, the report did clearly outline 1. The 15mph speed limit for the motors, 2 the 250w power limit and 3 the fact they have to be pedal assisted. The problem is even within our industry we have bikes that fail to adhere, Wisper allow you to have your e-bike registered with the dvla as an LPEV that allows throttle usage as long as the speed and power limits still apply, speed tuning devices are readily available for legitimate systems and the 250w power limit is a bit of a joke as 500w + is readily available from most high end motors on the market, I believe the new DJI motor has over 1000w so how does any of this get through? Nobody takes the laws that seriously and people are able to use and misuse them without being held to account

[@johnlesoudeur3653]

Who still watches television and especially the BBC...woke propaganda.

[@mattwoodford1820]

Is that toxic narcissist Jeremy Vine part of the BBC? Cycling could benefit from preventing that idiot creating content!

[@ebikescrapper3925]

There are safe and legal ebikes and motors / batteries / chargers apart from Bosch, Shimano, Yamaha.

[@Brookes79]

Engwe bikes can easy direstricted with a few button presses & this also unlocks the throttle. They have a folding bike that tops out at 1200W of peak power too 😬

[@revporl2]

I have an ebike that i use for commuting and am a big fan of them. Can do a 16 mile commute and not be sweaty. But i also have a motorbike and im out on that, at the speed limit because its enforced and im being overtaken willy nilly by guys on ebikes, they cant be identified and theyre blatting around at 40+ mph on 20mph and 30mph roads. Its not something that has happened pnce, it happens all the time where i live. The illegal segment is huge. The supply of them needs cracking down on, dealers need to be prevented from selling them at least, conversion kits too. Electric motorbikes are cool though, legal ones, and will he even better once batteries and ranges increase.

[@paulc8799]

I don't care what the BBC or any other UK media think about bicycles. In the English media anything to do bicycles is seen as 'only fools and sporty types'. And the UK hates sporty types even more than the idiots that try to TRANSPORT QUANTITIES by bicycles. And all of your drivers actually attack them, and of course your press can only see the cyclists as menace... And they are winning the battle.

[@davidharris4062]

The difference between an e-bicycle and an electric pit bike is vast, yet they are both lumped together, my main bike has a Rholoff Hub, yet people keep saying I’m riding an e-bicycle

[@andrewnorris5415]

haha, I have a dyno front hub, people see the wired coming out of it and the frame bag and assume I have an ebike.

[@davetkd666]

Regardless of any distinctions or reporting, id put part of.the responsibility on the establishments using delivery companies. Any Macdonalds ive been to now has a group of ninja delivery drivers riding illegal bikes with no lights - its about the only time they're easy to spot.

[@NeilLavitt]

The issue here is the over regulation which inherently leads to the situation we have now. Legalise the unrestricted but treat then the same as mopeds and small motor bikes. If people want to ride them, they should be able to with appropriate registration and road use testing. Ban them from pedestrian areas and shared paths. The fast food delivery services are also problematic. Riders, often paid by the number of deliveries taking silly risks. These bikes need to be carrying plates and be restricted from footpaths.

[@David-wf1hr]

It's an interesting debate for sure. I have a pinnacle lithium3 (not an e-bike despite its name) and a ceaya rx80. the ceaya can be 'unlocked' to make it fully illegal. I have the 3.5mph ish walk throttle, which is ideal for pulling off from a standstill uphill which is no mean feat on a 35kg bike. the motor cuts out at 15.5mph when pedalling , but the motor is in excess of 250w PEAK POWER. The controller can restrict the power supplied to an electric motor. so how is the 250w measured? This makes sense for manufacturers just having to make one motor say capable of 1000w and reducing the power to it via the controller to sell it in multiple countries where legislation on wattage is different. I use it for cycling on routes that have steep hills I can't do on a push bike due to heart rate limiting medication and when it's very windy. I can use some assistance to dial out a strong headwind. I also use it when following a long cycle the previous day on the push bike my legs are a bit tired. I'm not interested in doing moped speeds on the ebike, I have the power for the steep hills and a big battery for longer range. kzbin.info/www/bejne/fnzVg59pe9dog7s

[@ThomasMarshall-y9g]

Thank you for making this video, is good to hear some reasonable debate about the documentary. I work at a community project helping people get out on ebikes in rural Scotland (so not somewhere that really experiences the issues raised in the documentary). Have been surprised this week by how many times the documentary has been raised by people and the negativity it has generated about ebikes amongst public. I feel is genuinely a bit irresponsible for the BBC to air such a one sided show, you kind of expect it from organisations with their own agenda against cycling or vehicle restrictions but was a bit caught out that would make it to TV.

[@kevinstanley3581]

The fact that you thought the BBC could produce a balanced programme shows your naivety. Everything they produce has an agenda.

[@MapdecVodcast]

Yeah. Impartiality is not prevailing at the BBC any more.

[@AndreS_22246]

@@MapdecVodcast who does do impartiality? Genuinely interested.

[@colinmcnally5931]

Sounds like you think Amazon could ditch all its vans and use E-bikes to deliver all their goods. How clever are you guys??

[@dreadsces]

If the police started checking delivery riders bikes they will see that a majority of them are illegal. Legal e bikes are 250w motors pedal assist and cut at 15mph, those on the roads are not, they are either throttle or battery jury rigged. Trains ban all e bikes and e scooters for catching fire. I have recently seen surons riding about where I live all dressed in black, balaclavas no lights on pavement at speeds, dangerous to pedestrians and themselves, the fact that they are legal to buy is the issue.

[@francikaa1]

Legal e-bikes are useless. No one would dash out 2k or 3k for such a useless piece of junk. That's why they are all non-compliant.

[@MaxPugh-b1x]

15 mph is ok but im 68 and i could do with a thumb t hrottle on my 250w e bike cause its hard on small inclines and roundabouts

[@stevenkillington5041]

The road must be used at any cost no pavements

[@gd3593]

Deliveroo, Uber Eats and the like, should have to undertake an inspection of the employee's bike before they're hired. And also insist on a tracking device, possibly with a video camera. This may deter these delivery boys from buying these electric mopeds in the first place, and riding irresponsibly. How hard would this be to implement? Not sure.

[@Si1ent1]

Talking about how police officers have these very powerful cars the police should get their own custom high powered bikes. I feel if the police was trained on surrons these people would have no chance. And because the batteries are easily replaceable they can have a spare ready at the station or attached to the bike. Something like this

[@keithwalker3460]

point i will make is regarding throttles trying to get a hevey bike from a stsnding start id hard ,, i am happy with the 15 mph just feel unsafe at juinctions

[@r.d.vaughan4541]

I watched an interview with Joe from China Cycling and he commented on the severity of Chinese law and enforcement on E-bikes due to how they are souped up (modified). That's on top of where the riders are band from riding. It seems that once again technology is under estimate in being as much of a boon (enabling people to get out who couldn't otherwise) and bust (bring out the irresponsible fools). Be careful of using laws to resolve these problems as laws that can't be enforced are useless. As a road cyclist and runner I'm often in danger from e-bikes and scooters who are breaking the law (inappropriate surface [sidewalks], no bells and speed [all surfaces even legal ones]).

[@Liam.T]

09:06 100% TRUE. 15.5 IS DANGEROUS! If my push bike can do 20-25 on a flat WHY would should my e-bike cap at 15.5 and be safe. IN FACT it's even more unsafe because when the cap kicks in the bike drops 2mph WITHOUT A BREAKING LIGHT!!! I must seem like the Jurikest biker eva (With a busted break light) to the car behind me. SO DANGEROUS!!!!! EDIT: So due to this I am FORCED to ride at 12-13MPH.... I may as well get back on the push bike & go 20! SAFELY!!!

[@imark9386]

Maybe put the responsibility of Deliveroo and Uber eats to validate thier employees, it seems some dont want to be identified with only thier eyes showing, delivery couriers and commuters in citys are a different breed to what i would class a cyclist

[@tobythum6065]

Ebikes need to cut out at a certain speed. When will cars cut out over 120km?

[@andrewflies9119]

If your happy for a phone to track and dob in bad riding, you must be happy that the same thing should be applied to cars, trucks and buses? The public won’t have it.

[@MapdecVodcast]

Just for delivery riders operating for a company like Uber. They already do this for taxis

[@Motorizedstuff]

They do stop you buying a 200mph sports car go in to porche or Ferrari you have to go on a list that can take years to get on

[@digital.olimon]

Do people even watch and listen to the BBC these days?!

[@sparx550]

I’ve been riding road bikes 40 years from amateur racing to now just the pleasure of riding my bike. The BBC panorama was spot on, they are dangerous as you have people riding them with no road sense and riding them around pedestrians is a recipe for disaster, I’ve seen it with my own eyes and even when I’m cycling out of my city, I can’t believe what I’m seeing half the time. In an ideal world if they stick to law, limited speed and ride only on the road or cycle lanes then great I’ve no problem. Glad the bbc raised this issue as it can’t be ignored. I’m an experienced cyclist but get your heads around if you give a kid a powerful e bike what do you think they’re going to do. People’s welfare comes first.

[@funkychickenthesecond2102]

@@sparx550 using that logic, shouldn’t we ban all cars as well?

[@frankspeakmore7104]

@@funkychickenthesecond2102 Cars have roads to drive on. Pavements are mostly for pedestrians, have you forgotten what happens when a car is driven on a pavement, lets say at a Christmas market in Germany?

[@bikeman123]

Op you clearly haven't grasped the discussion point that electric motorbikes are not ebikes and are already legislated against. Maybe you should work for the bbc.

[@RobHill00]

Is anyone surprised the BBC had a one sided report!🤷🏼‍♂️🤦🏼‍♂️ unfortunately idiots will abuse anything they can like all the people on private electric scooters which are illegal but still see loads of people in the road on them and Surons, there a massive problem in the countryside as well!

[@carolinepaige217]

I have just taken up cycling on an e-bike after not having cycled since I was 35 when I commuted to work. Now at 67 things have changed however it is IMHO very half hearted. Cycle lanes on the road that are so narrow to the point of being useless. Cars and vans parking willy nilly across cycle lanes...Why? Why don't they absolutely change the status quo by actually changing priorities by giving cycle lanes the width of bus lanes and making it illegal with enforcement cameras to stop vehicles parking and traveling on the lane.... Yes it would make it more difficult for car drivers however more people would then be encouraged to ride a cycle because they will see that for one they are safer and secondly given real priority. As a stop gap they could put double yellow lines along every cycle trak! But then I do not agree that cycles should share what had been pedestrian pathways for 'ever'. Pedestrians are not cycle aware. They tend to not think of cycles and just change direction, stop or whatever without giving a though unless the come to cross over a road...... Make the roads safer by giving wide exclusive cycle lanes and then take the cyclist off the pavements. I live in the S.West in a small city and I see loads of illegal e-bikes.... Well at least cycles that are moving fast without the use of pedals, a dead giveaway. It needs more police involvement to get on top of this. Shops and Firms using e-bikes should register all cycles.... Rant over..... I love my Brompton E-Bike. lol

[@andrewflies9119]

You could discharge each cell if you believe it’s dangerous or unsafe and then discard it. Question is how do you know what is good or bad when you’re not trained either in the assembly and testing in batteries. It’s understandable that your bike shops can only sell or wish to sell batteries that adhere to the law from reputable manufacturers, who then go buy the components from china and put their own label on it.

[@MapdecVodcast]

Yep. Mostly is a question of liability, insurance and risk assessments.

[@FlatSmacked]

From the Netherlands; Can't catch me with the BBSHD!! hehehehe

[@johnb2219]

When they send you bikes to review send them to me

[@megane230f1]

so what happens when you push past its cut out limit of 15,5 mph? are you then illegal? i can push 24 25mph on my e bike past the motor cut off point am i now illegal?

[@Thezuule1]

No. The bike simply cannot provide assistance to get you beyond that speed. I can pedal my road bike that fast without a motor at all. It isn't illegal for me to do so either.

[@oldsquashmonkey]

3:00 mins in - it's not a plus if people are turning a throttle instead of having pedal assistance!

[@hartshorn95]

What about people who can't pedal, and a throttle (speed limited) in a pedestrian area is much more controllable and safe then pedaling

[@ChrisWhittenMusic]

It really should be an issue around the ‘gig economy’. I visit London occasionally and fast moving riders delivering food are a menace on footpaths and pedestrianised areas. In the panorama film you saw clips of riders travelling at speed while not even peddling. So it’s not a peddle assist bike or it’s illegal. I recently purchased a peddle assist e-bike and it is helping me ride more often and further. Of course, once I go over 15mph I’m on human power only on a very heavy bike.

[@Cycleplayer117]

This is a big problem with car users 20:57 👏🏾

[@goingoutotheparty1]

Ebikes rock, I make my own it's fun

[@jugaloo5873]

Ooo suprise, the beeb backing the tory little britian line as usual.

[@shauncrowther5299]

Another great podcast but I felt the four of you were extremely restraint. That show was so full of shite it’s untrue! They never once filmed a proper legal eBike, they used the term eBike whilst continuously using pedelecs, eMotorbikes and DIY bikes to peddle their one side typical media anti cycling claptrap! (Pardon the pun) Adrian Chiles the man once put in his place by Nichole Cooke when asked if it hurt when you fall off your bike she replied “we don’t fall, we crash”. Numpty of the highest degree! Where were the industry leaders, the retailers, the people like yourself or Chris Boardman with some common sense etc… As read in Cycling Industry News today it was said the British media are putting the UK ten years behind Europe as far as eBike use is concerned. Programs like this and all the other drivel spouted by the anti cycling brigade and our media outlets need to sort their own houses out (motorists) before having a pop at cyclists. The guy near the end of this program mentioned it’s going to take the death if a child for people to sit up and take note and take action against the eBike menaces, failing to even consider the thousands of people, hundreds of children that are killed yearly on UK roads every single year.

[@mikerobutube]

In 2023 two children were killed when a Land Rover Defender crashed through a fence and hit a group of children in front of school. Regulation of vehicles which are absurdly large for urban environments? Of course not, the reaction was, how sad but accidents will happen.

[@shanonfontaine3252]

Can't blame bbc because an apple can now be called pear 2025

[@chrisfilby9678]

My blood was boiling! In law an illegal e-bike is not an e-bike, it is an electric vehicle. Do not confuse the two by calling them the same name. Lack of knowledge is no defence. And how about not fixing/safety checking 'illegal e-bikes' just because they are illegal. All the same arguments go with e-scooters. You make it out that e-bikes magically cannot go faster than 16mph, WTF! Just pedal harder.

[@ebikescrapper3925]

You will probably find some of the batteries and chargers that are made for tfor the big brands and non big brands are made by the same supplier / factory

[@MapdecVodcast]

Maybe. Possibly they are made with rejected cells or without weather proofing etc.

[@ebikescrapper3925]

Which ones do you think are made with recycled cells and lack of waterproofing? The big brands or non big brands, they also could be made to the same standard.

[@blackcat-z8g]

The BBC has reported on issues with e-bikes that could make them less safe to ride, including: Fire risk Lithium-ion batteries in e-bikes can be dangerous and hard to extinguish, especially if the battery is damaged or modified. Illegal e-bikes The BBC has reported on e-bikes that are illegally modified or are actually electric motorcycles. Misinformation The BBC has been accused of spreading misinformation about e-bikes in a Panorama episode. Increased road risks The BBC has reported on how higher speeds and more power could increase the risk of collisions. Examples E-bike fires The BBC has reported on e-bike fires, including one in Bristol where a man died after falling from a 16th floor window. Misleading Panorama episode The BBC's Panorama episode on e-bikes was accused of being misleading and fearmongering. Illegal e-bikes The BBC has reported on how illegal e-bikes are a problem that should be dealt with at source.

[@MapdecVodcast]

Oh wow. 😮

[@blackcat-z8g]

@MapdecVodcast problem?

[@stevenkillington5041]

Number plates for work bikes