The Bible’s law codes weren’t enforced in ancient Israel

[@Shugamri]

Essentially, Ancient Israelite law codes like what we see in the Pentateuch were literally the Pirates of the Caribbean quote "The code is more what you'd call guidelines than actual rules" in real life

[@creamwobbly]

More generally, a code of conduct. We have modern day laws that go unenforced, such as the Flag Code, where it's forbidden to make clothing from the US flag, or fly it upside down.

[@QuinnPrice]

Excellent. This sounds like the Vision/Mission statements of some corporations. Most are exercises in idealism and rarely get implemented at the operational level as workers tend to do what works. Yes, so many laws, often conflicting, jump out at you when you allow yourself to read the text without a pastor or apologist in your ear.

[@brettmajeske3525]

One might be surprised how often this happens to modern governments. There are whole classes in law school devoted to unenforced laws.

[@KaiHenningsen]

@@brettmajeske3525 Yes, but most of *those* aren't there for display - they're obsolete, but nobody cares enough to remove them. _Display legislation_ ... hmm. Maybe those laws that say "Hey, if you do this illegal thing, that's not legal!"?

[@KaiHenningsen]

I'd argue *most* current display legislation are laws that often die in committee, or otherwise fail to get enough votes, predictably, but are undertaken so politicians can tell their voters "well, we tried".

[@brettmajeske3525]

@@KaiHenningsen ​ @KaiHenningsen While some obsolete laws are archaic, responding to issues that no longer matter, others are obviously never intended to be enforced. Those tend to be passed at the local level to make some sort of point. An example of the former include a multitude of laws about where one can tie up a horse that one has ridden into town. An example of the latter is Michigan's draconian adultery laws, some of the harshest in the country, most of which have never been fully enforced, and which would likely be considered unconstitutional if they were. Or public decency laws about the usage of profanity. Which often get declared unconstitutional when anyone tries to enforce them. So cops threaten people with laws that they don't intend to prosecute. There are hundreds of YT videos where a cop threatens people with decency laws, but when the person goes to court the charges are disturbing the peace or failure to follow directions. If a unconstitutional law is not enforced, it can't be declared illegal by a judge. Or suicide laws. Can't prosecute those that succeed. edit: You are likely correct that it would be more difficult to get a display law pass today given the current inability to get any laws passed.

[@Tmanaz480]

Yes--I love that metaphor. Same as our Declaration of Independence, where "The idea of royal birth is obviously made up, so we're gonna nope out of this whole 'King' BS." becomes "We hold these truths to be self-evident: That all men are created equal..." and other lofty philosophical musings.

[@danaplaczek9664]

As a former religious Jew, I thank you for this perspective. I'd never heard the term "prestige legislation" before.

[@stephenleblanc4677]

I've never heard of display legislation. It's a great analysis.

[@louismart]

This reminds me some human rights charters that were never taken seriously, but should give a state the appearance of being a democracy.

[@BradyPostma]

Are there any books on ancient near-eastern jurisprudence as it was actually practiced?

[@jennifersilves4195]

This was such a relief for some reason. Thank-you Dan.

[@chables74]

The Tanakh readily admits they unenforced and largely unknown

[@j8000]

That's fascinating. I feel like this should be mentioned in like, grade school, because so many debates happen with the premise that these are ancient laws in the same way modern laws are laws.

[@damianabbate4423]

Very interesting. Never heard of this before.

[@mr.zafner8295]

What up, party people, indeed. What up indeed

[@PopGoesTheology]

Thanks, Dan. Much the same with the laws of Hammurabi

[@byrondickens]

Speculation on my part but I wonder if courts would sometimes point to these laws and say "look at what the punishment could have been, but we are so merciful that we gave a much more lenient sentence!"

[@hrvatskinoahid1048]

It's difficult to impose the death penalty in Jewish law. Rabbi Akiva was of the opinion that a court that issues a death sentence once in 70 years is a murderous court.

[@avishevin1976]

The Prophets and Chronicles are full of judicial killing, where the king was the judge, jury and possibly the executioner. The statements of the Sages regarding court behavior came after the Roman conquest of Judea.

[@ChixieMary]

Can someone tell this to the Christian Nationalist contingent? They didn't get the memo. ❤ Dr. Dan

[@avishevin1976]

It's very difficult to read the plain text of the Prophets and come to any other conclusion. In some of the later Prophets (Jeremiah, Isaiah, etc.) we see some references to particular laws, but that's it. Ezekiel states that he particularly did not ever consume any unclean food, a reference to the laws in Leviticus which are widely believed to have only applied to priests until much later (2nd Temple era). Ezekiel was a priest.

[@candyfromtexas6855]

Right before you did it, I was going to remark about showing us your shirts at the beginning of every video. That shirt is cute! I love it! Now, on with the video...😅

[@brygenon]

Did the ancient Hebrews even have secular literature? I think their scriptures are a hodgepodge that includes prestige literature on one end and farming tips on other, because their rule was to credit all their ideas to God. The editors of the Torah probably worked from a mess of older writings and didn't even themselves really know the original purpose for the various parts.

[@Jennifer-cl1cl]

bronze age cultures in general didn't make the same kind of distinction between "fiction" and "nonfiction" that we make today. The importance of any story - whether it was presented as a recounting of actual happenings or a parable to illustrate a point - was in the messages the story communicated to its audience. When you look at the Pentateuch through this lens, I think it starts to make more sense.

[@brygenon]

@@Jennifer-cl1cl OK, but does not address my question on whether the ancient Hebrews even had *secular* literature.

[@avishevin1976]

@@brygenon For there to be a category of secular literature, there has to be a category of secular. Much of the content of TaNaCH is secular in the sense that it doesn't deal with religious belief or practice. In fact, most of the narrative has nothing to do with either.

[@Tmanaz480]

Dan, what data do we have on the functioning of courts, rules of evidence, etc. For example, I read somewhere that confession and circumstantial evidence were not sufficient for a conviction--only direct eyewitness accounts. Any book recommendations for this topic?

[@Jennifer-cl1cl]

There's a tradition in Judaism that says that if a beit din (religious court) sentenced someone to death for violating a law as rarely as once in seventy years, that court would earn the description of "the bloody, murderous court". Laws in the Torah that include the death penalty are understood more along the lines of how a parent today might tell their reckless teenager "If you borrow my car without permission, I swear that I brought you into this world and so help me, I will take you out of this world." It's just an attempt to communicate how grave a particular infraction is.

[@hive_indicator318]

You can have affiliate links under the video so people can see the shirts themselves. And you even get a tiny cut if they buy one! Only know about this because another guy i watch does this for his numerous shirts.

[@jenniferbrien3408]

Beau of the Fifth Column?

[@hive_indicator318]

@@jenniferbrien3408 of course. I like people who try to get through the hype and find out the truth

[@thealexfiles303]

I knew exactly who you were talking about! 😄

[@GeldardtheGrey]

Hi Dan, further to this question about the Law, I wonder if you could help me out with another aspect. Crossan has stated in several interviews that he doubts that people from poor villages in rural Galilee would have travelled to the Temple in Jerusalem three times a year, mainly because they would not have been able to afford to go without working for the two or more weeks it would take to go to Jerusalem and back. Logically and practically Crossan makes a convincing case. Do you agree and is there any evidence in the historical record that, actually in reality, not many people did make the three times a year journey?

[@twelvestitches984]

The male children had to be taken to Jerusalem once when they finished their Hebrew school. Then, everyone had to go when a census was ordered by the Romans. EDIT: Actually, everyone didn't have to go to report for the census, just one adult had to go and report how many family members.

[@GeldardtheGrey]

@@twelvestitches984 What's your comment based on exactly? From scholars and archeologists I have read there is little to no evidence that schools were present in poor, rural communities. In cities and for the elite, then yes, but not the rural poor. There is literally no historical evidence in Roman records or any other historical record that Jews had to register in Jerusalem alone for a Roman census.

[@thealexfiles303]

​@@twelvestitches984You may want to reevaluate your sources as neither of those statements are accurate. Just think about the Roman census proposition for a moment. That would be economically terrible and simply not feasible for one. Second, even if they somehow accomplished that improbable task, the data would be worthless. That's not how Romans operated at all.

[@twelvestitches984]

@@thealexfiles303 The Romans didn't care about hardship they caused the Jews. Joseph and Mary went to Jerusalem while Mary was very pregnant BECAUSE they had to register for the census. That's why Jesus was born in Bethlehem and not Nazareth. You shouldn't ever think you are smarter than anyone ever again.

[@thealexfiles303]

@@twelvestitches984 I didn't say I was smarter. I said you need to reevaluate your sources. For example, the census described in Luke could not have happened. The dates don't line up. Dan has a recent video that provides specifics, actually! And I'd argue the Romans cared about hardships they placed on the Jews in as much as it hurt Rome economically. The weird census described in Luke would negatively affect Rome's ability to extract wealth from the region.

[@LordRoku-]

could you do an online class on this topic?

[@merthsoft]

When did the tradition of circumcision start and was it enforced by some sort of power, or just a cultural more? Do these same arguments apply there?

[@reveivl]

Interesting, thanks.

[@christopherstanley5542]

Hey Dan, great video! By any chance, are there any books that you can recommend that go into this idea further?

[@CharlesPayet]

So how do we know what laws were actually intended for and enforced over the population?

[@AaronGeller]

We need actual records but stenographers weren’t quite a thing back then.

[@thealexfiles303]

From what Dan said, we don't really. It's more like we just know from context clues that actual usage and what was written down were two different things. Likely some overlap, but distinct.

[@brettmajeske3525]

We don't. Some of the laws could have been enforced without leaving sufficient evidence behind. Welcome to history, where we know less than what we can guess, and can guess for far less than actually was. Still, the standard operating procedure is to only assume that practices happened when there is evidence supporting such a proposition.

[@CharlesPayet]

@@brettmajeske3525 fair enough. I’m just curious about what is known about what laws were used on a day-to-day basis, and how/if/when they were enforced. Not enough to do a deep dive of my own though, so I was hoping Dan, or someone else, could provide a short synopsis.

[@consideringorthodoxy5495]

Except that’s not precisely what he’s doing here. He has (or should have, as a PhD in biblical studies) full knowledge that most things in history happen without leaving textual or material evidence, especially evidence lasting thousands of years. He’s not only “assuming that practices happened when there is evidence [for it]”. Hes taking another step beyond that and concluding that because there is no evidence that it occurred, then it *must* not have. He does it because he can lull people with less understanding into thinking they got a big gotcha against the Bible, making it look like a farce. The Bible clearly states that Israel rarely obeyed the law. And most revival periods were short lived. That’s their own testimony. This doesn’t really advance the conversation. It’s just vaguely approves of the Bible’s own understanding of what happened. The difference here is that this dude makes it sound like it’s all just a big show. To puff up legitimacy so they can get away with doing bad things while appearing good. But the text makes it clear. The standard was set and most people didn’t even attempt to follow it. That doesn’t make it a big show. It means that, like what’s always been said, people don’t always actually practice what they’ve been told to do.

[@jamesarnette1394]

Okay dan, I have a serious question for you. If the law was not enforced and if there were so many different laws within the law such that no one could keep track of any other person's fulfillment of the law, then why was Paul complaining so loudly and so persistently that it was impossible for him or apparently anyone else to keep the law? If there were no people around enforcing the law, then why would anyone worry about keeping it to the last letter of the last law ?

[@hrvatskinoahid1048]

God judges all the actions of a person.

[@DoloresLehmann]

Go back to 0:30, where Dan says: "We don't see an attempt (...) to actually enforce these laws UNTIL we get to the rise of the Hasmonean State in the middle of the second century BCE." Paul was clearly after that time. Especially the Pharisees, who began to form around the Hasmonean period, were very eager to keep the law as closely as possible.

[@germanboy14]

Paul was wrong and Dan spoke about it, see the ablove comment

[@jamesarnette1394]

@@DoloresLehmann thank you for that. I remember it now but I missed it at the time. But I do not understand your statement that Paul was wrong. Wrong about what? Are you saying that Paul could be wrong about Paul's assessment that Paul could not follow the law? That really makes no sense to me.

[@jamesarnette1394]

@@DoloresLehmann and secondly, Paul claims to be a pharisee. So are you telling me that he was a member of a group with which he completely disagreed? That also does not make any sense to me.

[@LoveAllAnimals101]

Back then was a great time to fine tune your fiction literary skills 📖 ✏️!!

[@HandofOmega]

That is so bizarre... Imagine looking at the Constitution and not being able to apply it's ideas because it's "prestige legislation". What did people back then say when they couldn't use the very legal rulings of God himself to back up their case??

[@piesho]

You beat me to that question. The only other thing I can ask is: Doesn't the nature of "prestige legislation" diminish the power of the ruling class?

[@trentlytle7289]

The people who would use the law code, the rulers, were probably not put through the court system. I don't know for sure. Also, most people were illiterate and wouldn't know anything about these laws.

[@nightwyrm4354]

Even today, many people wave the Constitution around like a prop and claims it supports their beliefs even though the text contradicts them. Imagine how much easier this would be in a world where >90% of the population can't read and only the elites can.

[@rainbowkrampus]

Looking at feudal societies may be instructive here. The ruling class were generally not that involved in the affairs of the lower classes. When there were disputes, two feuding farmers or what have you didn't go to their local lord. They resolved it communally. Usually through some kind of local council or other agreed upon authority/arbiter. Depending on where you're talking about and at what point in history, some people may have gone their entire lives without so much as seeing their feudal lord. Ancient Israel was not a feudal society, of course, but this hierarchy of laws seems to go way back. The people in charge of the territory don't really care that much about the minor disputes within the territory so long as their system of taxation and other wealth capture aren't being impeded. If the law codes were ever enforced in any meaningful sense before the 2nd century BCE, it was probably only in ways limited to the temple itself. Your average person would go, do their business at the temple, then leave and not interact with any of those people again until they returned as much as a year later.

[@MilkJugA_]

it is a matter of distribution and availability, as well as its appropriation of the rulers in question. first of all, the masses lived mainly in their local communities, while being largely illiterate. Holy books and laws were not available easily. The politics of the top of the politics were in large parts foreign to them, which is different from today with our national political and social institutions. If anything they probably mostly cared about their local lord/leader/rabbi/priest or whatever, but there is a big distance from that to the peak of the politics. Secondarily it wasn't necessarily the case that it was the king that directly exploited the people. The more direct exploiters would be the landowning class, or petty lords. In many cases throughout history, the king could could assume a mediator-role between the different classes and local groups of the realm. The king could in this case be seen as a just alternative, the few times the people interacted with him. A compromise could then be met between religious law and material concerns, perhaps. This has mostly been common in more decentralized or pre-statehood societies, it was pretty common for european feudal kings to travel around the country to solve local problems in such a manner. Not sure how applicable it is in regards to bronze and iron age kingdoms to be honest.

[@jeffmacdonald9863]

So the Law basically started as a prestige code never meant to be enforced, but during the Exile and the following centuries of not being an independent kingdom, it was taken more and more seriously as a model for how the Jewish state should really be run in order to keep YHVH happy so they would be blessed. The Hasmoneans win independence and crash straight into the problems of trying to apply a law code that was never meant to really be used as such. Also , as a prestige code? Or possible partly as ritual purity rules for priesthoods and the like? Depending on the section.

[@Joy_Joy_Joy]

Bluey!

[@UniDocs_Mahapushpa_Cyavana]

I mean according to the Bible ✝, Yahweh admits to having purposefully made the laws unworkable, meaning the humans would have to not enforce them in order to stay alive. Which really does seem like the intention of the laws if you reflect upon them. Eze 20:25 Moreover, I gave them statutes that were not good and rules by which they could not have life. Which makes sense if Yahweh's endgame is just making humans commit sin so that they will be less moral fanatical and able to survive on their own.

[@hrvatskinoahid1048]

Here is the context: "Because they did not perform My ordinances, and they rejected My statutes and desecrated My Sabbaths, and their eyes were after the idols of their fathers."

[@UniDocs_Mahapushpa_Cyavana]

​@@hrvatskinoahid1048 No. That is related to a separate statement. Eze 20:23 I lifted up mine hand unto them also in the wilderness, that I would scatter them among the heathen, and disperse them through the countries; Eze 20:24 Because they had not executed my judgments, but had despised my statutes, and had polluted my sabbaths, and their eyes were after their fathers' idols. That is explaining why Yahweh dispersed -------------------------------------------- Sure, you could say it is related. But there is no reason for it to be so. Moreover, Yahweh is still giving them deliberately bad statutes, showing it within Yahweh's character to do so. And actually reading the Bible's law codes, they really do seem deliberately bad. ------------------------ By the way, this is when Yahweh is speaking to a specific prophet, so Yahweh's speech could easily just be a matter of fact retelling.

[@hrvatskinoahid1048]

@@UniDocs_Mahapushpa_Cyavana God delivered them into the hands of their temptation to stumble over their iniquity. He punishes measure for measure. If they did not want good statutes, He gave them statutes that were not good.

[@UniDocs_Mahapushpa_Cyavana]

Even that scenario requires admitting Yahweh to have the kind of character to deliberately make bad statutes for an end goal... @@hrvatskinoahid1048

[@hrvatskinoahid1048]

​@@UniDocs_Mahapushpa_Cyavana If you are done nitpicking Ezekiel, how about returning to Moses, the ultimate and supreme prophet in Judaism? "Rather, this thing is very close to you; it is in your mouth and in your heart, so that you can fulfill it." (Deuteronomy 30:14)

[@tim57243]

If you have prestige legislation, you can also have prestige cosmology. That explains a lot. Thank you. I would like to see more about how this prestige legislation is self contradictory. The most prominent thing about it is that it requires killing people who are doing harmless things, but that doesn't strictly prevent enacting it. Contradictions would prevent enacting it. Found an example in the search results for "How should nonbelievers be treated skeptic". Old testament verses are cited for claims that nonbelievers should be killed, shunned, and loved.

[@Hermunkle]

Sounds like a cop out to me.

[@johnathanwoods1223]

So, the man being kylled for working on the Sabbath???

[@pastorrick727]

Another massive tidbit…

[@jimrob4]

Sir, that demonic shirt distracts from your message.

[@twelvestitches984]

Two thieves were crucified next to Jesus. Jesus was crucified for being too popular. So, the rules were selectively enforced.

[@karldunnegan2689]

You're just assuming that that particular story in the Gospels is true. I suppose you also believe that after Jesus' death the graves throughout Jerusalem opened up and the corpses just strolled around looking for the nearest Starbucks.

[@NotNecessarily-ip4vc]

Psalm 115 Names of God Bible 17 Those who are dead do not praise Yah, nor do those who go into the silence of the grave.

[@ZangariRC]

In our evolutionary brilliance the gods were inevitable however evolution proves them all false inevitably.

[@hrvatskinoahid1048]

Even though the testimony from Mount Sinai was directed to the entire Jewish people who heard and saw it directly, and the Gentile nations did not experience it directly, nevertheless, such a unique testimony to a group of millions of people is impossible to refute.

[@howlrichard1028]

@hrvatskinoahid1048 Do you have the names of the witnesses and evidence that they actually were witnesses? If you don't, then there's nothing to disprove.

[@ZangariRC]

@@hrvatskinoahid1048 Science liberates mankind from the wrath, magic and mystical interpretations of doom by any of the gods not just yours.

[@hrvatskinoahid1048]

@@ZangariRC Yet the youngest generations, who should be the happiest and most able given the unprecedented resources spent on science, are proving to be afflicted with maladies like anxiety, depression, and ADHD at rates never seen or heard of in human history.

[@hrvatskinoahid1048]

@@howlrichard1028 Those to whom Moses was sent witnessed his appointment as a prophet, and it was not necessary to perform another wonder for them. He and they were witnesses, like two witnesses who observed the same event together. Each one serves as a witness to his colleague that he is telling the truth, and neither has to bring any other proof to his colleague.

[@annaclarafenyo8185]

The slavery law code that demands hebrew slaves become free after 6 years must have been enforced, as it is a model for other slavery codes in Christianity later, in the medieval era.

[@MitzvosGolem1]

Not true In Judaism an " Eved" is a person who willfully pays for a debt by selling their labor services etc. They have rights and cannot be abused , kidnapped,sold etc etc . Nothing to do with what Christians did to Afrikan s and others . תודה רבה שלום

[@donsample1002]

A) That’s a complete non sequitur, and B) Laws about the treatment of slaves were routinely ignored in medieval Europe and the American South.

[@MitzvosGolem1]

@@donsample1002 True. They did not follow Torah laws since they were not Jewish . Kidnapping,sale of human beings,forced labor abuse is against Torah laws. Ask any Orthodox rabbi. שלום

[@germanboy14]

There were different laws for Hebrew and Gentile slaves.

[@jeffmacdonald9863]

Just because other later states and religions tried to use Hebrew Bible rules as a model for their laws doesn't mean they were actually enforced a thousand years or more earlier. Why would it?

[@quakeknight9680]

Judaism has fallen

[@MitzvosGolem1]

The oral laws ( Mishnah Talmud )were given to Moses on Sinai. Devarim ( Deuteronomy) 4-44- 28:68 . Moses was up on Sinai 120 days learning oral instructions. Which became Mishna Gemara Talmud. Kindly study our history from an accurate source such as Dr Henry Abramson channel or Rabbi Berel Wein history lessons orthodox scholar of Judaism. Very fustrating having gentiles try to explain Judaism. תודה רבה שלום

[@hrvatskinoahid1048]

Here is the historical chain of transmission: 1) Rav Ashi [received the tradition] from Ravva. 2) Ravva [received the tradition] from Rabbah. 3) Rabbah [received the tradition] from Rav Huna. 4) Rav Huna [received the tradi­tion] from Rabbi Yochanan, Rav, and Shemuel. 5) Rabbi Yochanan, Rav, and She­muel [received the tradition] from Rabbenu Hakadosh. 6) Rabbenu Hakadosh [received the tradition] from Rabbi Shimon, his father. 7) Rabbi Shimon [received the tra­dition] from Rabban Gamliel, his father. 8) Rabban Gamliel [received the tradition] from Rabban Shimon, his father. 9) Rabban Shimon [received the tradition] from Rabban Gamliel, the elder, his father. 10) Rabban Gamliel, the elder, [re­ceived the tradition] from Rabban Shimon, his father. 11) Rabban Shimon [received the Tradition] from Hillel, his father, and Shammai. 12) Hillel and Shammai [received the tradition] from Shemayah and Avtalion. 13) Shemayah and Avtalion [re­ceived the tradition] from Yehudah and Shimon [ben Shatach]. 14) Yehudah and Shimon [received the tradition] from Yehoshua ben Perachiah and Nittai of Arbel. 15) Yehoshua and Nittai [received the tradition] from Yosse ben Yo'ezer and Yosef ben Yochanan. 16) Yosse ben Yo'ezer and Yosef ben Yochanan [received the tradi­tion] from Antignos. 17) Antignos [received the tradi­tion] from Shimon the Just. 18) Shimon the Just [received the tradition] from Ezra. 19) Ezra [received the tradition] from Baruch. 20) Baruch [received the tradition] from Jeremiah. 21) Jeremiah [received the tradi­tion] from Tzefaniah. 22) Tzefaniah [received the tradi­tion] from Chabbakuk. 23) Chabbakuk [received the tradition] from Nachum. 24) Nachum [received the tradition] from Yoel. 25) Yoel [received the tradition] from Michah. 26) Michah [received the tradition] from Isaiah. 27) Isaiah [received the tradition] from Amos. 28) Amos [received the tradition] from Hoshea. 29) Hoshea [received the tradition] from Zechariah. 30) Zechariah [received the tradition] from Yehoyada. 31) Yehoyada [received the tradition] from Elisha. 32) Elisha [received the tradition] from Elijah. 33) Elijah [received the tradition] from Achiah. 34) Achiah [received the tradition] from David. 35) David [received the tradition] from Shemuel. 36) Shemuel [received the tradition] from Eli. 37) Eli [received the tradition] from Pinchas. 38) Pinchas [received the tradition] from Joshua. 39) Joshua [received the tradition] from Moses, our teacher. 40) Moses, our teacher, [received the tradition] from the Almighty.

[@howlrichard1028]

What a complete non-sequitur. I can only assume you're a bot or didn't actually watch the video.

[@RD-jc2eu]

@@hrvatskinoahid1048 How very suspiciously convenient it is that this "historical" chain of transmission has *exactly* 40 entries. Not everyone is as gullible as you are.

[@hrvatskinoahid1048]

​@@RD-jc2eu Maimonides made the list. I trust him, not you.

[@karldunnegan2689]

I thought Elvis would surely be on that list.