The Brains of Musicians - Dr. Ellen Winner on Neuroplasticity

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Dr. Ellen Winner, of the Arts and Mind Lab at Boston College, is an expert on child prodigies and learning in the arts. In this clip of our fascinating chat, Ellen discusses the cognitive development and brain plasticity of musicians as we age. Can an old dog really learn a new trick?
Watch the complete interview here: troygrady.com/interviews/elle...

[@jbridgehall4]

I started playing the viola at 80 years old and I’m told my progress is excellent! It’s never too late and you can teach an old dog new tricks!!😀

[@whatabouttheearth]

the larger parts of musicians brains is where the crazy lives

[@Wise4HarvestTime]

😂

[@badfender223]

Hey, I resemble that remark. :D

[@TranceCore3]

It's not the crazy, it's the music

[@Rockstarguitarstudio]

This is very interesting stuff. I don't think you should get discouraged by this interview, as some of you seem to be. Nowhere did she say you can't learn new things, only that there is some evidence that it will be harder. The real reality though, is that kids have more time to practice than adults. If an adult dedicates several hours of proper practice a day, they will advance fairly quickly. I've been teaching guitar since a year after I started playing (around 18-19 years now). I've taught many seniors successfully. My oldest student was already 68 when he started. He had just retired and had always wanted to learn guitar. He started practicing 2-4 hours per day, because he easily had the time and enjoyed it. He went from beginner to a high intermediate- somewhat advanced skill level in less than a year. He had never played another instrument, and he was significantly less coordinated than many other students when he started. He simply put in the time necessary, with proper guidance of what and how to practice. Bottom line, it's more about having enough time to dedicate to learning something, practicing the right material, in the correct manner, than how old you are when you start.

[@PaulKobzev]

Agree it is more a social than a physiological problem.

[@thegroovee]

I agree 100%

[@tonyamore6877]

Brilliant , I play the Piano too, and sometimes I feel like giving up. I just think what is the point . It is good that your 68 year old student and friend just kept on going. We have too , no matter what . Or look at Vincent Van Gogh . Started Drawing age 27 , I think, and people close to him said " you started too late "

[@watvrwemakemusic1983]

We practice letting go first... The goal in my mind is going to the place of improv... Listen to our stuff... Nothing rehearsed... Just a receipt of the place we went .the more you do that the less you need to know " definitions" and " rules"... It's telling a story and expressing yourself... Love it

[@BrianOSheaPlus]

I learned a second language when I was 29 years old, and I learn a new programming language every three or four years. I am 50 years old now. It would be interesting to try to learn a new spoken language now, although it would be difficult to recreate the conditions in which I learned the second language because I was able to quit my job for a while and immerse myself.

[@micoromico]

I like her, she's a winner.

[@SuperRichierich77]

My thought is that it is not simply playing that makes a player good, but what you play as well. This means that factors other than the physical aspects of practice inform your playing, so listening to music and how you interpret that music counts too.

[@clarkewi]

Fascinating. I have played music since I was a child and played drums and a little guitar in several small combos, big bands and orchestra's. by the time I graduated university. But my working life took a completely different direction as a graphic designer and later high school science teacher. I am getting ready to retire and am trying to revive my interest in jazz guitar playing. It's hard work but I am progressing slowly. Playing music seems to stimulate the brain so I think its good for health and well being.

[@cardinalmax435]

Nice one

[@stringbenderbb]

Very interesting but...I learned Handstand walking after the age of 35 and made my biggest improvements regarding Guitar echnique since Cracking the Code started. Picking the trilogy lick or the Gilbert lick are possible after a good warm up. I am 41 now. Regarding younger people and skills my observation was, that they get it fast and loose it fast.

[@jannikwette9678]

You are right. People under ca. 25 years old are engaging more naturally and therefore frequently in neuroplasticity. Their brains change faster. Easier to learn new stuff but also easier to forget stuff you dont do and your brain marks as "useless" information.

[@darkslayer7131]

Super interesting stuff ! Thank you very much Mr Troy Grady !

[@RickyBana]

Troy this is great info. Please keep it coming!.

[@OmniaViridis]

I would love to have my brain scanned. For so many reasons. I'm insanely musically inclined and I have bipolar so I've always wondered how those factors effect my brain.

[@malavikaganesh9970]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/n2TYk6qooKenbqc Is the work of an indian musician with autistic kids. They apparently have a natural flare for it. She's trying to study them. No brain scans done, but there are evidences. I had depression and my music is deeper when I'm sad. I'm a biologist too, so have wondered what the difference would be when I'm playing happily vs sadly....

[@valebliz]

Guess this post was an up lmao

[@Tektitictie]

same, im able to create and somehow listen to music using only my mind. its weird because i feel like i literally hear my musical thoughts.

[@paulthoresen8241]

Worth noting that most of the greats have been playing since they were kids, and sometimes taught by legends eg Satch got lessons from really practiced jazz musicians. I hope in the future music is just like reading and writing, compared to the days when that was a rare and remarkable skill. Jamming with people is like having a wordless conversation, you get to really know people without even hearing them talk

[@cabal4171]

The bilingual upbringing keeping the door open for longer rings true. I started getting exposure to english around 4yrs of age, and now I can more or less say I have two first languages; Eng and Spanish. Im currently in my late twenties and studying mandarin and I gotta say Im picking it up fairly well. Not to mention in the past I've dabbled here and there with french and portuguese and I honestly think I could be fluent in portuguese in less than a year and french maybe in 1 1/2 years if I ever actually sat down to study them.

[@dudldupiano]

This is really interesting. Thanks a lot !

[@janetread7925]

I started violin lessons at 65 when I retired. I’m now at Intermediate level after 8 years, and it’s been a hard slog, but I really enjoy it. I hope it helps my brain!

[@qwertylife]

Great! I hope to keep playing too.

[@rafaelmch]

I was born a musician and started playing by ear when I was 9, when my grandma was gifted a keyboard. I went on to study the piano and play the guitar and bass by ear. I also studied how to produce electronic music. I definitely think u can become a musician but my 2 sisters and mom started studying the keyboard when I did (before I studied the piano) but they all gave up and probably don't care enough to remember how to play it.

[@marksevel7696]

Werther’s originals man. Skillz

[@ForViewingOnly]

A really interesting video, thanks. If Dr. Ellen happens to be reading the comments, I just want to tell her she is a very beautiful woman!

[@bobsmith-ov3kn]

I only started seriously playin piano at the age of 20 or so, and after just 6 years or so, I can play pieces bordering on the absolute highest virtuoso literature available. I'm confident given another few years, that last level will be relatively easy to conquer (assuming I wanted to)

[@alexeltroll]

From what i've heard our perspective of time changes dramatically during our lifetime. I remember that when i was a kid an hour woul d take forever to pass. now in my midtwenties the days just don't seem to have enough hours also as a recovered drug addict i experienced the same thing with days that lasted forever and now i'm just warming up when the day is already over. it makes me thing when research says that learning something new as we get older just takes more time. I think it takes the same ammount of time but what changes is our priorities and our perspective of time.

[@johnmccann8319]

Very interesting,simple to understand.Beautiful woman!It's ok,I'm a musician!😆💚

[@itsjavaman]

what's different about music is the evolution the mind takes. You go from learning about finger positioning and scales to mechanical playing. that is being able to play songs by memory. To being able to improvise. I learned how to improvise with myself but just changing that one aspect of adding other musicians should cause tremendous growth as long as you have chemistry.

[@Sorel366]

One of the most interesting videos on youtube

[@annazully2680]

currently taking a neuroscience course and am learning the piano quite profusely so this is a v interesting topic!

[@MrSouzy]

I learnt a second language at 35 (German) because I currently live in Germany. I can really attest that it is very hard at that age but it is doable to a high standard. It takes a long time though. I never lost my English accent though. I am now 50 and just taking up guitar.... I seem to be making good progress...

[@TheCompleteGuitarist]

I can tell you now that the brains of prodigies are the same as most people's regular brains. Everyone more or less becomes a prodigy in speaking their native language and musical skills emanante or are processed in the same part. What makes a prodigy is access to the language of music and suitable encouragement at the stage in which languages are easier to learn by children. The key to becoming a great musician is access to sufficient good quality aural resources and the information age with platforms such as youtube have enabled a rise in virtuoso musicians and polyglots. It's hard to learn a foreign language if you never hear it. I speak as a language teacher/learner and musician and music teacher with 35 years experience observing these two phenomenons.

[@TaraRajendran]

Intriguing!

[@SylverANGL]

Maybe have you heard of the work of Rick Beato, whose children developed perfect pitch after some kind of specific musical conditioning by the use of a listening schedule of complex music pieces. I believe he says interesting things about brain plasticity, more related to music as a 2nd language in this case, that you might find interesting. Plus, he's got some results, even if we cannot scan a prenatal babys brain while the listening began (using headphones on the mothers belly, yes, you read that right :D)

[@aeksinsang932]

It’s work ethic- put in your practice time- all the greats do 😉

[@Javier-qk7ms]

When I was in colleague I heard young (around 19) and older (around 35) people say "I just can't learn it" without trying enough AND not having the proper mentor to quit learning maths and physics, they were stuck. I would seat and help my friends to study and very importantly saying "it is not that difficult, you can do this" and would see them going from failing tests to passing test. Can they reach an elite level? I don't know but I can say for sure they managed to overcome an emotional barrier "I can't" and then they would take off and improve their skills. I think there is bigger number of emotional distractions (pay the bills, feed the children, etc.) that makes people not able to focus as they would like to on learning something new, I am more concerned about really.

[@severalpaperclips]

A key underlying principle is that the more you know about something, the easier it is to learn more about that thing. That's why quality math education in primary/elementary school is so important. If kids get to 10th grade algebra without having a solid grasp on the material from prior years, everything turns into Greek very quickly.

[@Petermaguire3684]

You were in your colleague?

[@gearoftones8585]

I have played music for as long as I can remember by ear. Maybe I was born that way, maybe not. All I know is that it is so much a part of me that I can't imagine not doing it.

[@itsjavaman]

I Always thought that it was the same for muscle memory and growth. I used to ride a bike longer distances as a kid. I put cycling away for a few years, at a time but always seem to ne able to pick up where I left off so to speak. it's like waking up the body. after a long nap.

[@harrymorris9406]

Lesson on intense rhythm guitar playing mechanics please!

[@WizzerBandu]

Dr Ellen ❤️

[@Bluebuthappy182]

Hope there's more of that interview it was really interesting.

[@utubehound69]

There is for $55 .

[@JohnHorneGuitar]

Actually for $20 (monthly) you can get access to all of Troy's videos and interviews and tabs and he's always adding more content. A great value IMHO.

[@utubehound69]

***** One time view cost $55 Bucks.

[@JohnHorneGuitar]

+Watchman4u It's on the masters and mechanics series (or at least several excerpts are.)

[@robflores5172]

Don't care have to keep practicing.

[@NigraXXL]

This! It may take longer but as long as it's possible, it's worth it.

[@TheKb24BM]

Glenn Tipton from Judas Priest learned to play the guitar from the age of 19, don't be discouraged from this stigma.

[@faureswanepoel1665]

dude, well said

[@somekindofdude1130]

and his sweep is stunning

[@fabzlab1980]

Yes All have to say

[@castelodomar846]

@Troy Grady I speak 4 languages and learned computer programming languages by anchoring the concepts to my spoken language skills. I've since gone on to playing guitar, ukulele, bass, and percussion over the past several years. I learned music theory quite easy by viewing music as a language and anchoring it to all my other languages. It's about chunking and associating it with previous knowledge. It's about nailing down the bigger picture and seeing patterns and concepts. So with playing guitar, I was able to learn it and apply skills across other instruments. I'm nearly 50 now but I haven't slowed down. My friends think I'm a "genius" now that I've got my PhD and am fluent in a bunch of languages, plus playing music, but the honest truth is that no one sees how much time I invest in my learning and practice. To be fair, I'm anything but a professional musician, but I can finally hold my own now and am excited to keep learning. Bottom line: there might be some nature as a factor in my abilities, but it's mostly been obsessive learning, practice, and application. Keep up the great work! I really liked your Cracking the Code series!!

[@alfredhitchcock45]

It will be harder as you age but it's not impossible.

[@joniarmel7308]

I’ve been singing since 4 years old. Stated listening to music at 5. Wrote poetry at 13. Learned quitar at 9. Self taught piano . Wrote lyrics and music and recorded eighty songs . Just stopped all this in 2019. I was absolutely miserable. I had to rewire my brain to push away words. Learned to sleep and shut down my thoughts. Learned to have normal conversations. The creative world of building a song is celestial. I’m just kinda numb right now . Just here. I miss it terribly.

[@danabellefeuille8485]

well go back to it, if u can

[@TheLochs]

@sylver, his kids developed perfect pitch or learned it? I thought it could only be develped (ie, Innate)

[@boydclark3546]

SEE RICK BEATO ON THIS SUBJECT

[@jamieflexman]

The thing with language learning isn't that it's 'harder' to learn as an adult, it's just different. A child can pick up more of a language with less effort as their brains are wired this way, although an adult probably has to 'study' and do more focused practice to achieve the same results - but the results are there to be had. I'm 36 and I've been playing guitar for around 18 years, but it's only in the last 12 months I've been focused on learning sweep picking, and I would say I'm 80% towards being at my target level (fast and clean) - so even learning new shredding skills isn't a hindrance as an adult. Maybe if I was 12 it would take me 50% less time.. who knows, but again, the same results can be had with focused effort.

[@sunilgavade2293]

Very interesting 🤔🙄

[@salamangkali-allmartialart4836]

What a beautiful woman.

[@elizabethcsicsery-ronay1633]

The more languages you know, the more easily you can learn a new language. And yes, learning an instrument is definitely harder when you're an adult. I don't know of anyone who learned to play an instrument late who became a virtuoso on it. I know artists who switched to cello later in life. They practiced diligently but never became that good at it. There may be exceptions but they're exceptions.

[@mmaker83]

Im 33 and I've just bought my first guitar....guess I'll try to prove this theory wrong

[@NigraXXL]

It IS possible to learn something new if you're not a child or particularly young. It just takes longer. Nothing to prove there. As long as you keep at it you will get there.

[@Vortigon]

And by 'longer', really it comes down to hours spent. If you can devote 5 hours a day, you will learn it far quicker than someone doing it 2 hours a day. So longer is relative.

[@NigraXXL]

I don't really like to talk as much about how many hours, as I do about how well you do it. Efficient practice can take a guy devoting 2 hours a day farther than a regular guy devoting 5 hours.

[@dreamhackedmusic1099]

Steve Kaufmann would find this the language portion of this conversation fascinating. He's over 70 and he's still learning new languages.

[@josephparkhurst2164]

Published on 4/20

[@qwinbutton5156]

Joseph Parkhurst August...8/20

[@Anonymous-rj2lk]

"There is one exception to having young rate of neuroplasticity as an adult, when you have a solid enough reason to change, you brain will provide you with enormous amounts of neuroplasticity, just like young people" -Dr Andrew Huberman. Basically you need to be passionate about changing as an adult.

[@whalingwithishmael7751]

Does growing one area come at the expense of another, or is it just strictly bigger?

[@names5508]

Next video she meets the Magnet.

[@micoromico]

This made chuckle, grate job. :D

[@alfredhitchcock45]

Everything mechanical involves hand to eye coordination

[@incomingz44]

I started to learn playing guitar at 22... And now this is my excuse why I still suck at playing it.

[@Sorc47]

Well at least you have an excuse, I don't haha!

[@guillotinedeath]

Get a teacher

[@NigraXXL]

that's why it's called excuse, not reason :)

[@utubehound69]

Richie Blackmore said playing guitar was THE hardest thing he ever learned to do.

[@TheKb24BM]

Glenn Tipton from Judas Priest, learned to play at 19.

[@toddsutton5672]

I suffered a severe brain injury at 8. i have been trying to learn guitar for 10 years. Its not working which pisses me off. i wish they would have left me dead. my life has not been worth the pain and suffering i have been through.

[@troygrady]

I'm sorry for all the frustration you've experienced! One thing I can tell you from running a guitar teaching business is that most people are good at something, and very often better than they think. It can be really easy to get sucked into worrying about one specific thing you want to learn, and ignore the stuff that's already working really well. Instead, forget about what's not working and apply your energies to the things you're great at. It may not be the specific type of guitar style you want to play, or it may not even be guitar at all. But I always take the path of least resistance myself, because it is the shortest path to happiness. Good luck in your endeavors!

[@marksevel7696]

Fantastic persistence! Keep going. And try drums. The best instrument anyway!

[@theironfox2756]

Musicians are surprisingly functional while on massive amounts of narcotics. This has been demonstrated.

[@bradclooney5511]

This reminds me of a karate saying: "Karate is like boiling water". If you stop practicing, your skill quickly stops "boiling", like a pot of boiling water taken off the fire. You can learn a skill, but it will gradually die out if you stop practicing.

[@bradclooney5511]

Thanks for the great videos, btw. Really interesting stuff.

[@kadourimdou43]

When you are younger you have more time to spend practicing, less time learning skills for a job. It's not a like for like comparison really.

[@m0j0b0ne]

Mmmm, that's good brain science!

[@GuitarooMan93]

This means that if you don't play the guitar for few weeks, you'll lose come capabilities, right ? That's what i'm really affraid of :( Sometimes I just play the guitar just to maintain my skill, even if I don't want to do it !

[@Vortigon]

You eventually lose ability in all skills and knowledge if you don't use them, from Math to Language and sports. Every learned skill or knowledge requires reinforcement. Some skills require as much as weekly use (computer gaming) to maintain skill levels and some require as little as every few months driving/second language. The more intense the activity the more regular reinforcement required.

[@Frisbieinstein]

I know a big-time classical pianist. He has to practice on a grand piano for five hours EVERY day. I on the other hand play the bass guitar. I can set it aside for a year and play it about the same. If I play 5 minutes a day I improve.

[@albertjacobs8155]

Practice, practice and more practice. This will help you master anything. Music legends of India spends not less than 12 hours a day practicing their instruments. They are still as sharp as ever when they give a concert or a recital even when they are in their 80s or 90s. Morden living has tempered our talents and gifts due to the fact that we have to choose between earning our bread and butter verses time to expand the arts. So here we are paying to watch concerts and performances by musical artists.

[@birrdsetfree1084]

Summary: I feel a lot confident about what I'm talking about but I honestly, don't know. Good vibes

[@adamcartwright7281]

Is she eating candy?

[@Alex-wt9nf]

Adam Cartwright 😂😂 I was thinking the same thing. Made me want a jolly rancher myself lol.

[@archaicwolf4292]

@@Alex-wt9nf old people like pepper mint candy.

[@silversparrow6656]

My guess is it's Big League Chew - try it at four, chew it for life. It turns into wet cardboard in less than a minute, but boy howdy! - those first 45 seconds!

[@audionature8055]

The fact that you see this comment is a start to understand how cool we are.

[@teresathomley3703]

This woman

[@robertheck300]

MUSIC TO THE BRAINS IS LIKE A WHAMMY BAR TO MY FRANKENSTRAT. =vh=

[@infinitus.]

His voice sounds so much like that Jesse Eisenberg!

[@alfredhitchcock45]

All Americans sound the same. Try to work in a call center.

[@greg62945]

I'm a one man band trying to write some romance lyrics.

[@lagartogrande1908]

Musicians use their innate musicality to solve every day problems. One who learns how to play songs on their instrument is not always a musician.

[@secretbandreappears244]

Why are professors always snacking when they explain something, and why is it not considered rude as in it would in other situations

[@teresathomley3703]

Is very pretty now and was probably a knockout at age 22 or so.

[@ClassicJukeboxBand]

What about the brains of drummers? You know, the guys who hang around musicians and beat on things after their shelter provider/girlfriend drives them to the gig?

[@mahdimohammadi5231]

i wish you at least let her eat her candy

[@liloruf2838]

if only she wasn't chewing gum while talking in this interview

[@trooperandz1]

This is a good interview; but for heavens sake what is she chewing on? It really started to bother me unexpectedly 🤣

[@RobTackettCovers]

This lady is promoting Einstein as being brilliant, and he may very well have been (remember, theories are theories, as in E=MC squared is a theory, as opposed to the fact that E=E, and I hope someone's head didn't just explode, hahaha!). It is said that this theory gave birth to the atom bomb. Me personally, I don't see any evidence that the atom bomb really exists. Now I know we have huge explosive and bomb capabilities, but nuclear weapons? IMO based on what I have witnessed that the thought process of some of these is, (example: whoever it was that came up with the concepts on the Georgia Guidestones), if these had atom bomb weapon capability, they would have used it to eliminate 85% of the world's human population a long time before now in order to achieve the population goal depicted on the Georgia Guidestones. What about the WWII Japan bombings? Comparing the footage of Tokyo, which was fire bombed, to footage of the two cities that supposedly had been nuked, I'd have to conclude that those cities were fire bombed as well, and the atom bomb thing was hype. My point is, if there is no proof that these types of weapons exist that function in the way that it is hyped to us, then places like Iran aren't any closer to getting a nuke than Israel is to allegedly already having 80 of them, or the US or Russia both independently having their own stock pile in the range of 7000 of them. That would make Einstein a different kind of genius; the kind that convinces people that the things that can only exist in theories, cartoons, books of science fiction, etc., actually exist in the physical world as well. kzbin.info/www/bejne/roimhql6i7-Hb5Y

[@natemendsen1629]

Quick! Quick, somebody brain scan this one!

[@I0MSammy]

What the hell is she chewing?

[@JohnNugroho]

ikr..my 'brain' keeps thinking the same..maybe a rock?

[@manindersingh6748]

Yohanes Adi Nugroho candy dude lol

[@alfredhitchcock45]

Chewing gum

[@hayleyhart570]

yea

[@arturtelega627]

Respect 100% but maybe don't have a candy in the mouth when you giving interview. I'm so sorry is just kind of picking to me .

[@user-nm6dr4uy3d]

She's not taking into account behavioural differences that affect adult learning. A child will learn a language faster at least partly because they can't speak a lingua franca, they are not afraid of being embarrassed and they are taken care of by adults 24/7. She makes assumptions. That's not science.

[@abrahamben-zeev9142]

Why are you eating a candy or ?? during the interview?