No Wrist Speed? No Problem: Secrets Of Reverse Dart Thrower Picking Motion

[@Goldendick]

I'm already blasting the f*ck out my guitar after watching this. It is unbelievable! You are a genius, Troy. Thank you so much for everything!

[@troygrady]

Put up some clips, we love seeing results!

[@Goldendick]

@@troygrady just uploaded a video: kzbin.info/www/bejne/Y2bXXq2oZ8qYjNE. The upstrokes are crazy already!

[@troygrady]

Awesome!! Edit: For reasons I can't figure out your link is not displaying here, but it probably will if I post it as the channel owner ( kzbin.info/www/bejne/Y2bXXq2oZ8qYjNE ). For those who are interested, click on over for some amazing 260 bpm upstroke riffing!

[@Goldendick]

@@troygrady omg. I'm honored. Feel free to share and cut ❤

[@Goldendick]

@@troygrady New video: kzbin.info/www/bejne/bIGTaYGOhbdqi8k definitely got faster on the higher strings, but i don't know if i am doing it right.

[@aleksamrkela831]

Looks like a breakthrough for me. Definitely going to exercise this!

[@BobbyKoelble]

Exemplary work as usual, Troy. Thanks so much for giving props to Chuck Schuldiner! I played with Chuck in Death and it was a great honor to do so. Nice to see him getting recognition here for his blazing picking technique. I tend to think of the reverse dart thrower motion as the same as using a salt or pepper shaker. Please correct me if I'm wrong haha.Cheers \m/

[@cuteasxtreme]

I'm going right back to your Symbolic Solos video after I get this technique down.

[@troygrady]

Awesome!! Man you played on a true classic. Chuck is a pioneer. I actually had to do a little digging to make sure I got the pronunciation right. I discovered that not knowing how to pronounce "Schuldiner" is pretty common.

[@bliss_gore5194]

Oh my god it's the Bobby Koelble! I loved your solos on symbolic :)

[@TenStringsOvDoom]

Troy, I doubt you'll respond to my comments and will most likely delete them. Regardless, I think it's worth pointing out that the "reverse Dart Thrower technique", is in fact Roy Marchbanks "Hybrid Sarod Technique", which Roy has been demonstrating and promoting on KZbin and various other platforms for years. I find it very interesting that players like Dweezil Zappa and even Steve Vai will publicly acknowledge Roys playing abilities and technique. Yet there's nothing but radio silence from you, (somebody who is so hyper focused on picking technique), when it comes to Roy Marchbank. Why is that, Troy? Furthermore, how is it that you'll openly state in the comment replies that Roys technique is featured in this video, but then use your own term for it instead? I look forward to your reply, however I'm doubtful I'll receive one.

[@StevenRice]

huh, I was doing reverse dart the entire time and didn't even realize it...that's awesome. Its always what was more comfortable for me over the past 33 years. Excellent video as always!

[@jackiefrett3235]

OMG finally! I've been playing 15 years now and never could get this 220 bpm downstrokes like Hetfiled does Thanks, this is pure magic through science You guys are the best 🥰

[@troygrady]

Awesome! Let's see some clips! We're always learning from the way other people are learning.

[@Matt-xe9dj]

I feel like Troy is listening to me through my phone. I’ve been learning corridor of chameleons by Meshuggah and had to switch to this very technique. Then I see this video in my recommended. Funny timing! You rock, Troy

[@troygrady]

If you're intuitive enough to somehow know that these form adjustments work, then you are among the few, the proud. I was never that smart back in the day. I had to "figure out" all these things!

[@johnwardle9667]

I'm a mechanical engineer and a guitar player. I find this forensic approach to guitar techniques so AWESOME! I really appreciate the work that must go into these. ❤

[@troygrady]

Nice! That's a skill set I'd like to have. What do you work on?

[@helio1055]

prob just 🧢ing lmao

[@johnwardle9667]

@@helio1055 hey, first job was a design consultant to the construction industry, mechanical and electrical department, Heating, Ventilation and Air Conditioning systems for buildings. I didn't really enjoy that too much. Then I transferred to a Diesel engine test facility. R&D for the fuel injection systems for truck and tractor engines. I dunno what capping is, I'm probably too old.

[@user-pdogiP78V]

Man, I can't even tell you how much this helped me. Finally, for the first time in several years, that awkward passion for learning guitar appeared again. Can't believe this information is free, you obviously deserve much more views. And also I definitely can see how you honestly want to share your team's discoveries with people, it really warms the soul XD.

[@troygrady]

Awkward passion for the win!

[@perikholt3395]

I love to watch these vids and imagine what it’s like to have the ability to get your hands somewhat in sync with each other.

[@NOTDOJS]

Thanks for teaching and codifying these techniques. It somewhat explains how I pick single note lines. You mention that when using the easy motion, one picks straight into the guitar. But rather than rotate the forearm clockwise as you do, I rotate the arm counter-clockwise, so the pick points downwards, getting the pick as parallel as I can comfortably get with the fretboard. I hold the pick in a standard thumb and index manner and use a door-knocking motion to pick with short strokes. In my mind, I feel like I am picking towards and away from the fretboard. This also allows me to alternate pick one note per string arpeggios and two notes per string as fast as I can tremolo pick. There is a Shawn Lane video where he describes what I think is similar. He says that his pick is almost sideways, and his hand appears to be doing the dart-thrower motion. I am by no means an accomplished guitarist, as I only noodle now and then, but I thought I'd mention this as a variation of your technique.

[@Dungeon47]

Another perfect explanation and demonstration of a rather arcane subject. This is close to how I've been playing since I ditched the bent wrist style Marty Friedman uses so I could do reliable palm muting some 15 years ago. The other component is the rotation of the whole forearm as an added part of the overall motion. That rotation is a function of the bicep, which being a rather larger than forearm muscles, has a lot of endurance for these small motions. Combining some rotational motion in with the angled wrist motion (for me at least) gives a lot more endurance. The circular axis of the added motion, also makes avoiding unwanted string picks a little easier.

[@troygrady]

Forearm motions can be fast, for sure! EVH's tremolo technique is a great example of that. But this technique here does not have a forearm rotational component. You can see this in the closeup shots - the pick is not rotating. This technique is more similar to what very fast wrist players do, like Shawn Lane and John McLaughlin.

[@Dungeon47]

@@troygrady Indeed. The big takeaway for me is the reminder that you don't have to use the same technique for everything. You can have a whole bag of different tools and use as needed. I think a lot of us get hung up on the idea of there being a singular 'right' way. You're doing a lot to get people to branch out and accept variety.

[@troygrady]

That's true, and Ed is a good example of a multi-technique player who used different motions for different phrases.

[@Dungeon47]

@@troygrady I think about Tim Henson in that context of using a huge variety of techniques. Like some of the newer Metallica stuff. It sounds very simple and easy to play, until you try, and then discover it's challenging in new ways, be it timing, or some other way you have to stretch.

[@DethMetalGuitars]

My dad just retired recently. As a guitar player he asked me if i would teach him some guitar to reclaim an old goal of his now that he has free time. I will definitely be showing him this and other videos that demystify certain things that lurk beneath that surface level that most players struggle with at first and need to discover through feel for themselves. I play more extreme stuff and have since i was 15 and a reverse dart thrower style is what i landed on for picking speek 17 years ago through necessity, trial, and error. My dad wont ve needing this type of speed, but at his age he will need to be exerting his effort efficiently to avoid overuse injuries while learning, staying healthy and injury free is the only way to reach a goal like that in a timely manner. Cheers Troy and co.

[@troygrady]

That is a fantastic observation! It's not really that the motions are fast - it's that they're fast *because* they're efficient and easy. Everything below those speeds just gets even easier.

[@prezlamen]

This is exactly how I play,I develop this by feel,I was unable to down stroke in metal.I think this is also a secret of Shawn Lane`s speed

[@troygrady]

Yes, Shawn was a dart player - but the original dart thrower motion, not the reverse one. So he is kind of "backwards" compared to the players we look at in this video. However, similar concept. He's using the diagonal motion for speed.

[@bobibobik5903]

@prezlamen i saw it from George Benson and in one old book from DC and of course Shon Lane as well ( IMHO Shown picked that from G. Benson), but there were no explanations like Troy did it here. Shown only told that He holds a pick in an opposite direction, and that during those super fast runs He almost 'cut' strings at 90 degrees angle. The rest was up to to us who watched Him to guess what He did. So i never had a guts to develop that, and a few days ago i gave it tried after a long pause and it seems more natural. Problem was that teachers would tell us ''that is the wrong approach''. Thx to Troy people can understand why something works and believe in it 100% that such approach or any other that he have explained (in the past years) will gave them a good results. Of course If they practice it , so it is soooo much easier nowadays thx to Troy. Imagine if people had this 30 years ago such detailed explanations? I wished i did due to there was a lot of guess work back then, and some teachers would insist ''you have to hold the pick like this''. Only solution for the problem was to play slow. OK Shown told ala ''that is OK to play a fast as We can no matter f We make mistakes, but then to return to a speed were We can play it clean''. that was a bit difrent approach that We used to see in those REH videos and Hot Licks. There were no people like Troy would clearly explain it all .

[@bobibobik5903]

@@troygrady Your explanations are so precise, Troy IMHO you are the leading expert when it comes to picking techniques ( for the last 10 years for sure you're No1). I have to find some page with all expressions you use to learn them well. Due to you've put the picking under the scientific Prisma, and that is a good thing, because such precise expressions and names are taking away the guessing work. Thank you so much Sir Troy!

[@paulsprouse7239]

What an absolute unbelievable one of a kind genius this man is

[@slapitman]

Troy can you please do the video from the players perspective ie view of hand but from the players eye? It's great to see the string axis and rotation at string height but it doesn't really relate to the players view. We need to see the action as you would looking at our strings with the guitar on our body. I really think this would help more.

[@tonymartin4571]

Right and with both pick grips. I’m so lost on this subject after watching it like 5 times I still don’t get it

[@valuesrejected]

Definitely, I am so lost lmao

[@edelcorrallira]

Those extreme speeds sound amazing!!!! Man so need to take note because I absolutely love that sound, I could listen to it for hours on end... Made me think of Anthrax and Agent Steel

[@troygrady]

It's super cool - sounds like a helicop[ter. And kind of surprising when you get it working.

[@BenEller]

WELL! I know what I’m trying today!

[@russellzauner]

You need a camera with a faster imaging sensor in it. Maybe do a collab with the slo mo guys or something.

[@troygrady]

Amazingly we really don’t any more. The 240p that your average phone does now is an incredible tool and would have been science fiction back in 2004 when I was doing the original interviews.

[@cliftonwright7081]

Finally a name for my awkward weird technique besides “flamingo golf club”

[@troygrady]

Exactly right! We've actually drawn upside-down flamingos in an animation in one of older our lessons to illustrate this.

[@cliftonwright7081]

@@troygrady haha that’s glorious, I enjoyed this one a lot, thanks for continuing to build this cool legacy of practical and extremely high quality guitar education material.

[@georgoroth]

​@@troygradycan we call this technique "italian picking"??? Mutch easier to remember

[@oopsydaizi3s824]

“It’s a living!” 🦩

[@ozman6602]

Lol a flamingo golf club alot of great guitarist have awkward picking hand technique makes you wonder how they can pick like that but it works for them.

[@oricerro]

I'm sure that this video will begin that the uppicking strokes, as a variant of other picking techniques, It would be more usual on players repertoire, over time. I hope that Troy would get his credit, not only for this, also for his dedication and sharing his knowledge about the picking techniques.

[@troygrady]

You never know, maybe we'll see more upstrokes! I find it pretty easy to do, or at least, easier to figure out.

[@RichLyles]

I wish I'd have seen this 35 years ago. Thanks for all your hard work making this, Troy Grady! You're Awesome!

[@troygrady]

Me too! Better late than never I guess.

[@ForTiorIJohnny]

ngl i didn´t quite get all of that. but what i did get out of this video is that fast "knocking on a door" motion you can do in the air, do that on the guitar. and if the motion seems a bit large, don´t worry about it. and after a few minutes of trying that mindset, fast down strokes do feel quite a bit easier and less tense.

[@troygrady]

That's it! Great summary. The other hint is that to do it on a guitar, you don't want to come straight down and "knock" on the strings. You want to come at it a little from the side, so you may have to rotate your arm position a little like you do when using an ergonomic mouse. And this may require using a different pick grip to achieve that arm position while still being able to reach the strings comfortably with the right attack.

[@robertanderson1043]

Aw, man. This 3-finger rotated grip is what I started with so many years ago, until I got some lessons and was told that was completely wrong, and I was going to have to re-learn the thumb and curled first finger pick grip. Now you tell me!

[@troygrady]

Everything was anecdotal back then. Guys says do this, other guy says do that. The three-finger thing isn't magic though and some players may be able to use a "tall mouse" form with an index grip if their fingers or palm are long enough. So there are still unknowns here. I would say test and see what works, while monitoring for what feels easy / comfortable.

[@DanAshby]

I’m the same as you and am only just going back now and re-adopting some of things that I unlearnt because I was told by a black and white picture in a book printed in 1992 that it was wrong!

[@Laionel76]

I'm grateful for you sharing such quality content with us. Thanks.

[@troygrady]

Thanks for watching!

[@Laionel76]

@@troygrady I've been following your work for quite a while and your finding and explanations are incredibly relevant and usefull. I've been practicing the advice you shared and it made realized something I've been suspecting for while. Whereas the extend to which the forearm is rotated is important, it appeared to me that the amount of flexion/extension of wrist is also important. While they are seen as progress, I wonder if tommy cut and the forearm contour pioneered on the stratocaster, are actually a desirable feature. Especially for the less gifted among us, a flat body implies that the player has a pretty control and perception of the plane of the string and it promotes a position in which the elbow is a tad further away from the body and there is less wrist flexion. The effect varies depending on whereas the player is sitting or standing, how he positions the guitar. etc it is nonetheless a factor. I just received a Les Paul copy and whereas I like the flat back, but I noticed that the carved top and the significant angle between the neck and the body messes with my picking. I guess one can adapt but I wonder if the flat simple bodies (with a neck aligned with the body) are actually more ergonomic when picking mechanic is considered and not confort. I could also explain why there is no request in the tele community for the strat «ergonomic» cut. Anyway, have a good week-end.

[@jan_07]

Hmm interesting! 😮 I use both for years already and depending on the situation, and I didn’t even know these two were a thing or have scientific reasons like that! I just happened to use the RDT when I need to reach really high speeds and for riffing out in metal just because the bridge palm muting was easily accessible that way, and I just stumbled to use the DT when doing really fast clean lines as it assists in muting string buzz (after reading up on Govan’s book about keeping unplayed strings muted). 😆

[@troygrady]

That's awesome! At some level, you had the smarts to recognize that these things were working well enough that you should keep doing them. That's actually pretty hard to do, particularly when you have competing messages about correctness, or just no messaging at all in many cases.

[@cofiddle]

I am astounded by how much we still have to learn about technique, efficiency, the human body, Etc.

[@troygrady]

Same!

[@tommyibanez3958]

It's crazy the number of things I was doing right as a young teenager that my teachers made me stop doing. I've been relearning from Troy all of the things that came naturally and were taught out of me.

[@troygrady]

Very common story! Technique is complicated and not at all obvious.

[@theeasterling3383]

So u could actually write a dissertation on this one and become a phd in guitar 💪🏽 this is pure science

[@troygrady]

We drew on a number of research papers for this. What is interesting is that the performance question (i.e. speed and endurance) hasn't really been investigated by science yet. These motions are mainly studied for their role in rehabilitation of joint injuries, where doctors are looking for motions which are very common because they can be used in many everyday activities like pouring, tapping, etc. They are less concerned with breaking speed records, even though the speed aspect can be a clue to how the joint motions work and why they evolved - and those questions *would* probably be of interest to researchers.

[@theeasterling3383]

@@troygrady I mean this is a great topic for phd research in Berkeley university. This is the whole new level of playing, ur pickslanting videos for example completely changed the way I play. And it’s really more than just - practice 24/7 and u will become a great player

[@natemendsen1629]

Man are girlfriends going to be happy with their guitarists or what after this one

[@Highcastle_of_Geek]

I also have a certain set of...NOT SKILLS...

[@troygrady]

Ha! It's our superpower.

[@aadityakiran_s]

Roy Marchbank, the fastest guitar player to have ever lived uses this technique.

[@troygrady]

Yes! I think Roy's technique is reverse dart.

[@aadityakiran_s]

Why don't you get him on your interview series? @@troygrady

[@Musika1321]

​@@aadityakiran_swould love to see this. Hybrid Sarod is the same as Reverse Dart Thrower, incredible!

[@MrZergMan]

you're amazing for making this. thank you!

[@eblue9620]

Pretty amazing explanation Troy, after so many years of unlocking picking secrets and still breaking new ground in researching and explaining what our human hands have been doing all along and didn’t know it. Tried this and it does indeed allow for faster speeds and with less fatigue. Reminds me of my ancient Asteroids video gaming days blasting through all those rocks. One caveat for me is I hybrid pick a lot and with this hand orientation my fingers are pointed towards the ceiling and can't get to the strings. 😉

[@troygrady]

Yes for sure. The Andy Wood "small mouse" reverse dart technique can split the difference a little for hybrid. It's not as fast as "tall mouse" form. But with Andy's arm position, which is much flatter, you can still make a diagonal motion that goes pretty fast. It just won't feel as super duper easy.

[@eblue9620]

@@troygrady makes sense, I'll give it a go

[@CarstenGoeke]

Another incredible Video Troy. Thanks very much ✌🏼

[@charvel111]

yo wtf, I immediately noticed a difference. I had trouble having my left hand being faster than my right hand, and now my right hand is way faster just by tweaking it a little.

[@troygrady]

Nice! Which of the techniques are you using, the trailing edge grip? And what was the speed increase?

[@Torgomasta]

Awesome you included Archspire!! Dean Lamb is one of the main guys that comes to mind for me reverse dart throwing. He’s the only reason I’ve tried to switch to it, no luck yet, but still trying.

[@troygrady]

Are you sure you're not already doing it? Andy Wood, Al Di Meola, John McLaughlin, Andy James, and many more or all reverse dart players. They're not using "tall mouse" form but there's plenty of footage of McLaughlin blazing at 220bpm+. So "small mouse" is still a very capable motion.

[@wth522]

Amazing stuff, Troy! I have heard people talk about reverse dart throwing motions in the forum but I never really knew what they were talking about and now I do! This video is so well done! Incredible playing also. Great job! 🙂🤘

[@troygrady]

The Primer explains all of this in even simpler fashion. The quickest reference we have is this lesson here: troygrady.com/primer/motion-mechanics/chapter-1-identifying-wrist-motion/

[@rattleheaddd]

woah, ive been playing like this since the start of my guitar journey and i always thought that my picking technique wasn't right

[@armandosinger]

Wow amazing. Been playing around with this technique for a couple hours and realized that my form looks similar to the Gypsy jazz player. But then I tried to flatten my wrist toward the strings more and directed for palm muting the lower strings and noticed it’s very uncomfortable. Now I can’t work out how these guys palm mute with the fleshy part of the palm under the thumb, or if they mute in a different way!

[@Arnold_Ehret]

An interview with Anton Oparin (who claims his infallible technique) would be interesting.

[@AffordableSouthFloridaHomes]

This opened up my mind as to why my picking speed hasnt progressed.

[@jari7018]

Many of my playing friends have been confused with the technique I use to play. I've only said that this traditional carpenter grip. Move my hand look like big move, but it is not. Only bad think my technique is that my first finger nail is always broken😂

[@athmaid]

8:46 I'm having a really hard time seeing any of that DT or RDT motion in these players, and they all pick differently from Troy as well. Can somebody explain it to me please?

[@raysmith5193]

When it comes to technique Mr. Grady is # 1 guitar teacher in my book !

[@LostSoulAscension]

Ah, Marty's death claw grip finally makes sense now.

[@johnbsouth1]

Crazy fast! Awesome as always my brother! 😮

[@brokeperson5869]

Hmm, Shawn Lanes picking hand looked quite a bit like this at high speeds. Inverted thumb and all. Never noticed until now.

[@troygrady]

Yes! I think Shawn was a dart thrower player - i.e. not a reverse dart player. In other words, he used the inverse arm position and inverse axis of motion. Essentially same idea, just using the other diagonal axis.

[@TheDarrenJones]

This is truly fantastic. I'm a similar age to Troy, and while I've been unavoidably away from playing the guitar for a couple of years, I've just seen the light after literally decades of frustration from having tried to ape Al Di Meola's playing with a flat wrist and side-to-side action (which I think he even described in his playing techniques book which I bought when I was maybe 15). Just changing that axis while tapping against my laptop, with the arm twisted (rather than flat) shows that this is a huge breakthrough. Fantastic stuff from Cracking the Code, and when I eventually get back to playing the guitar (in 6 months or so), I'm looking forward to putting this into practice. 👍

[@troygrady]

Yes! When you learn to view wrist joint motion relative to the arm it becomes clearer which motion Al Di is actually making. Live footage helps of course. From static photos in books back in the day, forget it - I had no chance. There were still people who learned these techniques at fifteen or whatever, with no teaching. They were just fewer in number because succeeding required particularly great athletic intuition, luck, or both.

[@claymor8241]

Hope you get your parole.

[@TheDarrenJones]

@@claymor8241 It's worse than that. I'm self-building an extension for my house.... my one year build is already over a year overdue! All looked so easy on KZbin.

[@eckpyrosis7232]

Ugh, wished id known this sooner. Also, those mustangs are killers!

[@troygrady]

Same!

[@jackill2611]

Thanks Troy, you've upgraded me as a guitar player.

[@BitMatt1]

Interesting. My thumbs are double jointed. I'm going to work on changing angle with my thumb. Believe it or not this is the first time I really thought about this.

[@troygrady]

Just to be clear, it's not really about the pick grip. If you change the pick grip but don't change the arm position and wrist motion, there will be no benefit. The key is that you want your guitar picking motion to resemble the "knocking" motion that you can make in the air, because this motion is easier.

[@Dan_Ranger]

A 60 year old Trailing Edge picker here. My once retarded picking grip by my old band mates and friends has now gained a new badge of honour 😀I could always DP quickly and now I know why. Even at 60 I am now going to push the BPM's. Great explanation of the Reverse Dart motion.

[@troygrady]

We all got the wrong messaging back in the day! One caveat, it's not the grip per se. It's that these grips enable a more "tall mouse" arm position, and that in turn enables the more "bird pecking" style of picking motion. And those are the joint motions that go faster. So it's really ultimately about the joint motion - the pick grip just lets you get into a comfortable spot with the arm to get that joint motion to work as a picking motion.

[@Dan_Ranger]

@@troygrady The whole mechanics of it all is fascinating. Very grateful for these video breakdowns and it’s definitely honing my playing and using my quirks as a benefit. The human body definitely has some great little tricks up its sleeve that’s for sure.

[@ninkichan7209]

Nice Work Troy. I was wondering if you ever considered doing a content on Babymetal Kami band's Lead guitarist Takayoshi Ohmura. He has a very unique and precise picking hand using mostly finger motions instead of the wrist. Based on his explanation on one of the videos he made a long time ago, he uses the wrist for accents, but alternate picking is mostly based on his index finger knuckle. His former bandmate, the late great Mikio Fujioka uses a similar technique.

[@troygrady]

Yes he's great. We've referenced him in some of our other instructional material as an example of finger joint technique. I haven't tried to do any of those techniques, and I suspect there are several of them. But clearly they can work.

[@ninkichan7209]

@@troygrady There are a couple of folks in Japan using the same technique and aside from Ohmura, another Japanese KZbinr explained it but since it is in Japanese, I assume that you and majority of your viewers are unaware of it because even the title of the video is in Japanese.

[@joebegly733]

​ @troygrady you'd already set the bar high but this is one of the most interesting videos you've done. Playing in the beginning was CRAZY and all the explanation of how the wrist works was very informative. Well done, I know you and the team put a ton of time into this stuff. 👏👏👏 EDIT: I wasn't even finished the video when I posted the above. Playing in the middle-end is even CRAZIER lol So awesome!

[@troygrady]

This single escape stuff is a great skill and doing it at the nether reaches of speed (1) is fun, (2) makes 200 bpm feel like walking backwards so improves all your other playing, and (3) leads to all kinds of cool idea generation. Like turning all your diatonic scales into 1234 / 4321 fingerings by adding an extra note.

[@devastator909]

i think Roy Marchbank and shawn Lane also use(d) this techninque

[@troygrady]

Roy does the one we're looking at here! Shawn does the opposite one - dart thrower. His technique is roughly similar to John Taylor who we show briefly in the lesson. Same concept though, speed through diagonal wrist motion.

[@Hairfarm1]

As a left-handed person who plays standard right hand guitar I will always be hobbled to some degree. I have much more precision with my left hand but wanted to play right hand guitar for a variety of reasons. I wish there were a video for left-handed guitar players who wanted to work on improving their subdominant right hand picking speed...

[@troygrady]

I'm honestly not sure there is a connection. Michael Angelo Batio, Steve Morse, and Shawn Lane are all lefties who play righty and very few players have done better than those guys. Also, I'm a righty who plays righty - does that mean my fretting speed suffers? Because I don't perceive that it does. If your concern is picking speed, what I can tell you is that when players come to us for consultation, the problem is almost *never* natural ability, or needing to "build up speed" using training. The problem is almost always the technique they're doing, and whether they're doing it correctly. We test everyone on basic tests of joint motion without a guitar first. If these numbers are much higher than your performance on a guitar, then speed is not really the problem, it's just doing the right technique. Here's one of the tests we use ( kzbin.info/www/bejne/gmezhnaKlrN0hdk )

[@JozefZemla]

Thank you Troy❤

[@pivonroll]

Hey Troy, have you considered flamenco style played without pick to be reverse dart thrower motion as well?

[@rmoelleux]

I noticed I started doing this as I was trying to build up a wrist motion (as I played a long time with an elbow motion, which I wasn't happy with), but I always wondered why I couldn't do other wrist motions as well. Turns out they may just have not been adapted to the stuff I played. However, you mentionned the guys from Archspire, and they have tons of USX riffs (take the main riff from Involuntary Doppelganger for example, they've got lots of tremolo picked, even number of notes per string riffs), how do they do it with that motion ? Is it the fingers tilting the pick ? Do they momentarily switch to regular dart thrower motion for those ? Start with an upstroke ? Something else ?

[@troygrady]

Great question! You can still do USX motion with a reverse dart / ergonomic mouse form. It just might not be your fastest wrist motion since the wrist isn't moving as closely aligned to the reverse dart axis. This also explains why you can do double escape motion, since that is essentially a semicircular combination of two slightly different directions of motion. Keep in mind, also, that this stuff is hypothesis and we haven't measured these in a lab setting, which would be pretty tricky to do. It's sort of a moot point though because there are a limited number of ways to anchor on a guitar, hold a pick, and move a joint. You try all the ones that are practical, you see which one(s) work best, and off you go! Shawn Lane had basically one motion (dart, non-reverse USX) and look at what he accomplished.

[@rmoelleux]

@@troygrady Thanks for you answer! Really love your work by the way :)

[@tmarti3207]

Tobi Morelli has incredible ability to change between pick holding techniques within different riffs and always in a cosistent manner

[@fiftyghoststrading8500]

Great video! I'm not sure why 16:12 reminds me of the muppets, though :)

[@CaratacusAD]

I'm a but confused :) So i've turning my forearm out for a while just to get my strumming smooth and my wrist loose. On the picking side, are you actually playing upstrokes first for the beat and the down is the alternate?

[@troygrady]

Yes with this technique I am intentionally doing upstroke on downbeat. This motion feels like a door knock or table tap. If you tap on your pickguard with a pick really fast, that's the motion. Notice that the tap is basically an upstroke, but it doesn't feel that way. It feels powerful because it's moving toward the guitar body. I use that motion as the synchronization pulse. You could of course still use downstrokes, but again, this just feels kind of natural to me.

[@fabricioborges6643]

To say this video has just made my day is an absolute understatement! I have no words right now... Just have to say "thank you, Troy!"

[@troygrady]

Cool!

[@armandom28]

Some of the positions looked very similar to how George Benson picks?

[@troygrady]

Yes I think George is a reverse dart wrist motion player. However there may also be some forearm rotation in his technique too. There may be a little mixing and matching of both joints going on his technique. It's complicated!

[@davidzamora9973]

1:05 ohhh snap, Mr. Grady busted out the Chuck Schuldiner grip. It's about to go death metal up in this video!

[@troygrady]

Yes! We look at Chuck a little later on.

[@nyquilthegreat]

Wtf you started this project so many years ago i thought you had uncovered it all and then you make this mind-blowing video 🤯

[@troygrady]

What we noticed originally was the concept of escape motion, where some players make the pick appear it is going up in the air. But we actually didn't know much about all the different ways the motions are accomplished, i.e. which joints and arm positions and pick grips and so on. That was a very complicated puzzle to piece out but we have much, much more knowledge of that know. And also how to teach things, which is the important part for most of us who just want to make music.

[@nyquilthegreat]

@@troygrady well I think you do a great justice to the many nuances involved, and your resources are ones for the guitar history books! PSP and CtC really opened my eyes to technique and position, and this video did it again by literally inverting how I perceived which muscles are working on the desired motion

[@mauricebrocklehurst2358]

Man is the devil going to be pissed with you giving away his secrets 😂

[@Musika1321]

Roy Marchbank must be pretty happy his Hybrid Sarod technique has finally been figured out by Cracking the Code!😁

[@gonzalolouhau3871]

@troygrady is episode 2 of "Cracking the Code" down? I can't find it! I'm rewatching the series and that episode seems to have dissapeared.

[@MarRecusable]

Finally someone scientifically dissected James Hetfield's picking technique. You are my hero. TY!!!

[@troygrady]

James is a picking pioneer!

[@MarRecusable]

@@troygrady I'm printing this conversation to show to my friends.

[@karlosed]

Thanks for this. Please invite the Maestro Yngwie!

[@Ibanezguy2007]

that's insane - how?!

[@Kriegter]

This has always been my go to picking technique since I begab playing guitar. Having practically worshipped James Hetfield's picking it just made sense for me to imitate him

[@therealbrentmiedema]

I've dealt with chronic muscle tension due to PTSD for all of my adult life. The work you do in the science of guitar playing is greatly appreciated.

[@10csade]

cry me a river

[@ExiLeZH]

@@10csade really?

[@GordOlson]

Troy, check out Keep of Kalessin's track "Vengeance Rising" from 2006. At the 0:27 mark, you will hear some of the fastest picking (and double bass drumming) ever recorded at the time, and even still to this day. Basically 20 seconds straight of 16th note triplets at around 180 bpm, which is equal to 16ths at 270 bpm. Absolutely insane. Has to be using this technique!

[@troygrady]

Not familiar with them but the track sounds very cool. You really can't tell from listening though which technique was used. The techniques we know that go this fast are the one in this lesson, but also the inverse one used by John Taylor, dart thrower (i.e. non-reverse) wrist motion. John gets up to 300 and beyond with that one. Elbow is also very fast and goes this speed. You'd really need to see what they're doing. Is there live video anywhere?

[@TheMirrorify]

You're such an asset to the guitar community, Troy. This confirms something I have suspected for a while, I notice way less tension when I do the 3 finger grip. I actually do it with 2 fingers but my index finger is in the same position (slightly more centered on the pick) as it would be in the 3 finger version, kinda pointing at the guitar, not curled up. After watching your video here I noticed the method I described also allows for that slight forearm rotation.

[@troygrady]

Sounds plausible! You are correct that the key is the wrist motion, and the arm position and grip simply enable that.

[@Musika1321]

Wow wow wow Troy, thanks for confirming reverse dart thrower is exactly the same as Roy Marchbank's hybrid sarod. When you interviewing him? Be awesome to see you two jam.

[@michaelseidl1562]

After practicing this today, I think I got it. Paul Gilbert talks about this, but from his video, I dont get it. (Paul Gilbert, Right Hand on KZbin) If you dont know this video, it's a nice shot of his picking, and he talks about the upstroke as well. I absolutely love Paul, but your discrpion is the best I know.

[@troygrady]

If you're talking about the one where he does all upstrokes and downstrokes, I've seen that. However the motions he does there are not very similar to his actual picking motion once he starts alternate picking. So if him doing all ups / downs that way helps, I would say it's somehat coincidental in his case. The key with the motions in this lesson is that even the "all-upstroke" tapping motion looks almost exactly like the alternate picking version of the same motion. We can see that with the slow motion camera. So it's a much closer stepping stone. If you can get the all-ups, you can probably also get alternate at the same tempo.

[@michaelseidl1562]

@@troygrady i think you are right, again, if the motion is exact the same the feeling changes. im glad of your gamechanging knowlage and sharing this stuff❤

[@SamuliFederley]

Ultimate cool stuff!!

[@idiotburns]

8:20 focus more on the physics of the pick in motion

[@efstratiosanagnostopoulos6636]

Man, bring Paouris in your channel. Fastest pick regardless of instrument

[@Kriegter]

I actually started off with the three finger pick grip, but changed to a two fingered grup once I realised that I can't quite do a trailing edge when playing guitar standing anyways, which prompted me to switch to leading edge picking. However I realised that while most players only use the tip of the index finger to hold the pick with the thumb I use almost half the index finger, which looking back, was almost a compromise for a three finger grip.

[@troygrady]

Right! Sounds like you were probably figuring out a way to get similar efficiency with an index grip.

[@coledoyle5950]

I've been learning the guitar for about a year, and I've been doing this a lot accidentally when trying to pick really fast, which isn't really that fast considering my experience but not even realizing that it was an actual thing. sweet something to lean into then.

[@SousSherpa]

Would a Frisbee throw be a good description of a reverse dart throw motion?

[@troygrady]

Great question. It depends! With a supinated forearm position, frisbee would be dart - basically the reverse of a clubbing motion. With a pronated forearm position, frisbee would be reverse dart. However you're right that it's probably one of the two diagonal axes since those are the powerful ones.

[@TheBrianRaglandChannel]

👏👏👏👏👏👏👏Wow, I am truly mind blown. I've been playing for 30 plus years and I could never attain the speeds that I wish to attain or the effortless in the clean picking between string and notes. I am blown away by this. Thank you so much. New subscriber here. I plan on binge watching the videos on your channel and possibly ordering your instructional videos. Where have you been my whole life?👏👏👏👏👏👏👏

[@troygrady]

Awesome, thank you!

[@DaveZnoise]

Digging in! Are you able to use this technique with EJ style licks (I imagine the fret hand might be the limit here)? I have found my pick arm willing/wanting me to go into a position like I see with Joscho Stephan, but at too great of an angle I lose control. Time to experiment.

[@troygrady]

This technique is a DSX technique specifically so you would need to start EJ lines on upstrokes. Which means you won't have the downstroke sweeps you need for things like the EJ fives pattern. Also, as you're pointing out, almost nobody will be able to actually fret 2nps lines past a certain speed. Shawn Lane was probably the best at this but he would still have limits that are far lower than his limits for his 3nps and 4nps fretting. Also, Shawn was a dart (i.e. non-reverse) player, so his motion was inverted compared to this one. It was USX, and he could use the original EJ picking patterns including the downstroke sweeping. Different arm position / motion / etc. but similar concept.

[@christian_florez]

Amazing content! Question: I hear guitarists like David Davidson of Revocation somehow play really fast sixteenth note lines across multiple strings. How is that possible? I have two ideas: 1. Anchoring pinky + normal dart thrower motion, a la EVH - This is probably the closest I've gotten but it never feels very controllable to me 2. Reverse Dart Thrower + starting on upstrokes - This just feels unintuitive but maybe it's something I need to just start drilling

[@troygrady]

He looks like a USX player. Meaning, his fast lines are structured so that the last pickstroke on every string is always an upstroke ( kzbin.info/www/bejne/poOtan6Agb9sZsk ). Some of the most famous players of all time like Yngwie, Eric Johnson, George Benson, and Shawn Lane all play(ed) this way. Many types of joint motion can do this. However, once caveat - most players who come to us for consultation are not USX players. This is simply because the most common picking motions in all of guitar regardless of style are all DSX motions, where the final pickstroke on every string must be a downstroke. Yes, anyone can learn any technique. But this is easier said than done and most won't. The test is to perform a tremolo and film the escape. It will usually be one or the other and then you'll know.

[@christian_florez]

@@troygrady For something like metal, where you often have 4-note patterns, wouldn't it be somewhat advantageous to try to learn an USX motion? A few years back I tried to learn the track "Of Unworldly Origin" by Revocation (David Davidson's band) and I just could not simply play that very fast tremolo line in the beginning. Doing some anchoring to try to force what I think might be a normal dart thrower motion helped a bit, but the speed was never quite there. I'm naturally more of a DSX/RDT player so it was pretty frustrating not being able to figure out the right motions, which seem pretty necessary for a genre like death metal/thrash metal with fast even-note tremolo patterns across multiple strings. Thanks for taking the time to respond and answer my question Troy!

[@maxwellblakely7952]

Is Troy still making YT videos. These are incredible…

[@Pootzification]

Can you show us how you did those harminics at 2:28 ???

[@tmarti3207]

I m pretty shure this movement was the secret of the incredible Shawn Lane picking speed. He was doing reverse picking, thabks to his "double jointed" thumb I guess

[@troygrady]

Yes! I think Shawn was an original "dart" player, i.e. non-reverse. So his motion was inverted relative to the one we're looking at here, using the opposite diagonal. But yes, same concept though!

[@natas-6747]

Hey Troy. Will the magnet be available to purchase again? Thanks

[@LivioLamoneamusic]

Hi Troy, I see you're using your elbow, also: kzbin.info/www/bejne/hIjYeJ6Onc9jipo ....how comes? You don't mention it in the video...

[@foreigner2017]

i do want to mention the awesome fat metal tone from those single coils he's playing

[@troygrady]

Aha, they're not single coils. They're Zexcoil which is actually six coils. It's their own design and they can get any sound from single to bucker. These are their bucker model.

[@SYNDRONE]

It's a bit misledading because you are switching from 4 16th notes per beat to 3 triplet notes per beat at some point, no?

[@oldtimetinfoilhatwearer]

I like the thumbnail xD

[@TremorBear]

My fretting hand is still slow 😕 I would be happy with 120 or more…I’m probably too old to get faster. Cool video though! 👍🏼

[@troygrady]

Mine too. Secret: use four fingers per string. Even Shawn Lane focused on "easy" picking and fretting patterns at his mondo speeds. Most players aren't really doing the hard things you think they are when they play fast.

[@TremorBear]

@@troygrady thank you 🙏🏼

[@mattrick5064]

I can't possibly make this into a downwpicked escape motion, it completely defaults to escape on the upstroke. Does anybody have the same problem? Thank you for sharing, Troy! I just need to figure it out somehow :D

[@troygrady]

What makes this technique fast / easy is the way the joint is moving. The escape that you see is caused by a combination of that motion plus the arm position. So it's possible you are doing your fastest joint motion, just with an arm position that causes it to orient in such a way that you see USX escape instead of DSX. Alternatively, you could be doing a slightly different joint motion and that's why the escape looks different. It's complicated! Either way, if it is working for you I wouldn't worry about it.

[@jordanj9069]

I’ve been waiting for this level of research to be put into musical technique for years… thank you

[@troygrady]

Evidence-based investigation is what we do!

[@michael1]

@@troygrady It's a waste of time with respect to playing music. Firstly it's a tautology, since none of the mugs singing your praises can play darts telling them it's a dart playing motion is as pointless as telling aspiring dart players to move like they're picking a guitar. Secondly none of them do anything else they do by fretting about which anatomically named parts of their body move or don't move - if that was required then 1 year olds wouldn't be learning how to walk we'd have to wait until they were older. Thirdly if all the people singing your praises could actually play the guitar to a high technical standard then there's bazillions of incredible virtuoso musicians by now and yet there aren't any. Odd. Lastly, and the biggest clue this is a waste of time : the only interesting guitar players to come out in the past decade that are playing music can't even use a pick. Lastly, if you look at other musical instruments, e.g the piano, you can find the same situation : a plethora of highly skilled virtuoso pianists and a circle jerk of people bleating on in pseudo-scientific terms about parts of their body who can't play particularly well fixating on technique in the flawed belief this will provide the "secret" to playing. It doesn't. But I guess the key part of making money from this is ignoring that evidence.

[@kevinwhite6172]

I played that way for most of my life only to change to a more conventional grip a few years ago. I prefer the conventional grip though my forearm is still rotated the same as the old way.

[@troygrady]

If you can still reach the strings with an index grip with the same "ergonomic mouse" arm position, you're good. What I think happens is that that individual variation in finger or palm length means this isn't possible for everyone. For me, I can only access the faster speeds with "tall mouse" form. And from that arm position, I can't reach the strings in a usable way with index grip.

[@spartan7336]

@troygrady, can you compare/contrast this technique vs "The Yng Way"/Malmsteen picking style which to me appears to utilize more wrist supination/pronation vs wrist radial deviation-flexion/ulnar deviation-extension seen in the Reverse Dart Thrower technique. Also do you believe that "The Yng Way" technique can achieve such high speeds; 250, 260bpm?

[@troygrady]

I'm actually not super clear on what joint motions Yngwie uses. He doesn't look like a wrist player to me. The classic example of a wrist player is someone like Di Meola, where the whole hand moves back and forth. Yngwie never really looked like that. His old technique, which you can view in the aweseome live Alcatrazz 1984 concert, looked more like some type of finger joint motion. Maybe thumb abduction? With bits of forearm motion on some phrases? It's interesting. I don't know how fast that motion goes. But let's assume that if he could have played 250 he would have, because, he's Yngwie and as he likes to say, more is more! So I'm going to guess, no, his picking technique couldn't reach those speeds. Are there finger joint players who can reach very fast speeds? Yes, Danny Joe Carter's technique can do 240 at least, and it sure sounds like it. I don't know what escape it is or what its practical uses are. But the speed is there.

[@riangarianga]

Thank you, that was pretty interesting! It'll serve me to guess why I can play quite fast when standing and wearing the guitar a bit lower than when sitting down, when my arms are otherwise feeling cramped. Your work is a blessing! Those first videos on pick slanting meant an immediate leap for me, after years of struggling jumping strings, not being able to figure out on my own how easy it actually was. Although he main «wisdom» I gained wasn't the technique itself, but the thought process to find out the «code». Later on I even took beginner students, and observing their mechanics while fixing them as needed (I didn't want to bomb them with rules on «position correctness») made me learn much more than just observing myself.