The Carnivore Debate Part 1 | Mastering Nutrition #69

[@chrismasterjohn]

2:11 Introductions 6:36 Dioxins in food. 14:33 Methionine to Glycine ratio. 23:08 Nutritional deficiencies in paleolithic people. 27:09 Bio individuality/diversity 36:07 Deficiencies that arise from eating only muscle meat. 37:26 Vitamin C 44:22 Weston A. Price’s documentation of whale stomach lining and moose adrenal as a source of vitamin C in Arctic diets. 56:03 Ketogenic diets, oxidative stress, and vitamin c. 58:36 Insulin 1:05:46 Antioxidant status. 1:22:44 Folate. 1:26:05 Riboflavin. 1:30:23 Manganese. 1:32:28 Dextrose powder. 1:37:31 Potassium/sodium. 1:52:37 Hunter gatherer diets now vs. 80 000 years ago. 2:03:05 The Maasai. 2:09:00 Vitamin K 2:19:00 The most radical thing I’ve done recently.

[@cutestkittensanimalrescuep8531]

I love you presentations I really kind of think they're better when you're by yourself. But it's nice to see where someone else will take a conversation

[@elcaptitancivil2860]

If you're after confirmation bias? Its not here. This is actually an interesting debate. Masterjohn actually really pushed the questions. This was great to listen to. We all should be questioning and thinking for ourselves. And Saladino did a great job too. Thanks guys

[@wreagfe]

Agree! It is funny. All the people that I follow (as in consume their knowledge and use it to incorporate in my life) can easily hang out together, go hard and not be hostile. On the other side of the nutritional, political, philosophical, fitness spectrum you have the toxic people that eat their own and can't normally communicate with people that think different from them. Their ideology prevents them to be open and reject any idea and person that thinks differently. I prefer people whose ideas, philosophy, ideology allows others to be almost the total opposite, and not be bothered by it.

[@jillbetts1241]

This was just fabulous Chris. You are such a sensible and wise head in the nutrition space. Can't wait for part 2. Thank you

[@jillbetts1241]

What a fabulous discussion. I don't know how I missed this 4 years ago. I will listen in again but with pen and paper in hand to make notes. So much information.Now for part 2. Thank you both

[@tommycharles4666]

This is pretty simple. Eat what humans pre-tech would have eaten. That includes animal products, including organ meats and marrow. It also includes nuts, some fruit and some veggies, when in season. Does not include grains. Does not include seed oils, or "vegetable" oils (olive oil is fine) Does not include refined carb more than maybe once per year. We're not herbivores. We're not obligate carnivores. We're omnivorous. But for most people pre-tech, outside of the equator, being omnivorous meant depending on animals for much of the year. We evolved no defenses for chronically high refined carb intake, and once beta cells are exhausted, bad things happen.

[@mattdarwin6497]

So glad this interview was done. I ate a “nose to tail” carnivore diet for a long time. It made my POTS syndrome worse. Come to find out, POTS patients tend not to do well on low carb diets. Also found out I had a thiamine deficiency despite eating nose to tail. Paul has his heart in the right place and is a good guy and I’m glad the carnivore diet works for him and most of his followers. I’ll continue to eat meat and oysters and liver and fish. But no more carnivore for me. Love the way Masterjohn breaks down how different peoples’ dietary needs can be. I’m so tired of hearing from the diet extremists that I need to eat X diet (carnivores, keto, paleo), and that if I’m not getting better then that must mean I’m “not doing it right”. Individualized nutrition is the way of the future. The only diets I can agree are not for everyone are vegan and vegetarian. Animal foods are necessary. Beyond that, it all changes depending on the person.

[@Eudaimonia239]

The thing is most people will promote what works for them at a specific moment(which chris greatly pointed out) , this is why it appears so extreme when a community of people promotes it, and you dont hear from people who fail that diet cause they remain silent, but they always exist in any diet(keto, vegan, paleo you can find ex stories on all of them) . As a result, We get stucked in a echo chamber because of this and get wrapped up by our identity regarding diet and think only on diet identity and refuse to think critically. Another thing is focusing just on macros, that doesnt help, people only seem to care about losing weight, when optimizing nutrients is just as important. At the end of the day the lesson here is both plants and animals have a vast array of nutrition and while carnivore shows us that animal foods and ancestral foods are great, plants also have great nutritional value, we should aim to maximize the best of both worlds, while avoiding processed junk and crap.

[@mattdarwin6497]

RavagerPrime I understand what you’re saying, and I think you’re sadly right about the majority of people. It’s just weird to me, because at no point in time have I ever tried to force what works for me on anyone else. People get their ego so tied up in what works for them.

[@Eudaimonia239]

@@mattdarwin6497 true I myself like my current status but I am open to the possibility to changing my mind regarding what to eat, not tied to a specific one. Dogma is the worst thing when it comes to diet, and I dont try to force it on my friends either, if they ask I just briefly mention it and thats it. I hope you doing okay man, and manage to cure your condition. Thiamine and b vitamins defficiency is a huge issue I find many people have and dont discuss that much. were you able to resolve it?, and how if you dont mind me asking?.

[@mattdarwin6497]

RavagerPrime Agreed. I have a game plan I’m following to get well that I’ve put together through trial and error over 4 years, but I’m ALWAYS open to new ideas and research. I’ve changed my paradigms many times. And I’m currently working with Elliot Overton over at EONutrition. You should check out his videos. He has a ton of information on thiamine. I haven’t resolved my thiamine issues yet, but it takes quite a while. I’ve only been supplementing for 4 weeks. It can take up to a year apparently to heal from severe thiamine deficiency.

[@IvorMektin1701]

@@mattdarwin6497 Elliot Overton is brilliant.

[@thecleaningteacher638]

I love the irony of the idea that the educational system made you question the direction of your life. 🤣 You’re a great teacher and it’s obvious that you have a gift...glad you found your niche!

[@delinquents212]

Who says they don't teach critical thinking anymore? 😝

[@zipfelchefchen6816]

Awesome conversation! Already listened to the whole episode on Paul's podcast right when it came out. Looking forward to part 2! Also, thanks for posting a good description and not just a bunch of unrelated links like most KZbinrs do.

[@crazitaco]

Long story short, Carnivores: it wont kill you to eat some lettuce. Or to take a vitamin c supplement.

[@hamidmosalla1094]

I really appreciate the detailed info you provide Dr Masterjohn. But wanted to say it helps a lot of you publish a shortened version of a talk, along with its full version. It help people who don't have the time/attention to spend on a full length video.

[@Alden99669]

This is the best debate on nutrients and where and how to get optimal levels for being healthy. Both of you are top scientists and have extreme knowledge in all phases optimal nutrition. Please write a book about this because you make a great team.

[@TheSpinelessNinja]

My take on the effect of a carnivorous diet on oxidative stress is that such a diet would be very abundant in the nutrients required for glutathione synthesis. Cysteine intake is rated-limited in glutathione synthesis, and selenium is also a cofactor in this reaction. Cysteine can be also created with the involvement of methionine, B12, and B6. All of these nutrients I've mentioned are more abundant on a carnivorous diet than a vegan or omnivorous diet. Vitamin C helps to preserve glutathione and is lacking in a carnivorous diet. I'm not sure why many in the carnivore communities are so averse to supplementation. A vitamin C supplement costs less than a penny per day and is in the same form in a supplement as in real food. If you're ideologically opposed to eating broccoli, just take a damn pill.

[@mr_mysterious_6174]

The whole podcast I was thinking what’s the point of all this debate just take a pill.

[@someguy43210]

I find folate and magnesium intake seems to be low or deficient with a meat only diet (without relying on supplements or snake juice). All the nutrients you mentioned are important, but magnesium is a big one, as it is required to make glutathione, and crucial for many other processes so much that I would prioritize getting enough of it first over many other nutrients. As for folate, I'm not sure what other parts of the animal are high in it aside from liver and kidney, but I'm skeptical about eating 6-8oz of liver every day for folate, which could cause problems in the long term such as high iron and copper. And probably not natural to eat in such amount daily, that's a lot of animals to slaughter per year to meet the daily folate requirement for every individuals on the planet if they were not allowed to get it from any non-animal sources.

[@TheSpinelessNinja]

@@someguy43210 I agree with you regarding both magnesium and folate. An ounce of liver (about as much as a person should eat daily) only provides 9% of the RDA of folate. One beef kidney provides about 50% of the RDA. Eating more than one kidney per day and you risk selenium toxicity. Four eggs can provide up to 24-100% of the RDA according to Cronometer. As Chris mentions, it depends on what the chickens eat. "Omega-3" eggs from flax fed chickens tend to provide a lot of folate. Fish is a decent source of folate, generally containing several times the folate content of beef.

[@_FMK]

I'm not so sure that a vit c pill is neccessary. My ancestors on the NZ native side had zero fruit & ate seasonal carb - were doing fine for several thousand years before flour & sugar were shovelled into the picture..

[@_FMK]

@Redpill Progressive Oh yes, I do agree that people who eat high carb (modern SAD style) need high vitamin C 👍

[@greendeane1]

The diet of modern Aboriginals in Australia who live a hunter gather lifestyle is 64/36 animal/plants.

[@ChrisDavis-lv6gf]

Both are former vegans.

[@tranquil87]

Who failed at it.

[@carlcisc1706]

Glad you did this video. I believe that carnivore diet is good for some individuals with bowel problems. It is a great elimination diet. I do not believe that humans should be limited by any single diet. Humans are extremely adaptable. I personal believe in cycling. Fast, feast, plant based and clean keto and also pescotarean and carnivore. Historically we really went through cycles of different diets with seasonal variation. Man is messing things up because we have introduced so many chemicals and also abnormal feeding patterns into our animals. Humans are eating far too many processed foods and eating off many different chemical based utensils and dumping too many chemicals into our environment. We study medicine and nutrition and most studies are filled with bias. Trained in science I am beginning to doubt most publish material. We study biochemistry which is a very static science and try to apply it to dynamic humans. As you point out there is genetic variations that can interfere with how nutrients are utilized. Humans biochemical pathways can be influenced by over use of supplements and restrictive diets. Keep up talking and pointing various concerns.

[@MeatMikeD]

Excellent discussion. Vitamin C - kidney has next to none (for Paul - although the fat around it may have more), but no one discussed the high vitamin C ruminant foods! Spleen has 14+ mg per ounce of vitamin C. Testicles have 8 mg/ounce, lungs have 9 mg/ounce. Hard to eat either raw, so half that with cooking, but still, much more than liver or other organs. Thymus is one of my favorites also at 8 mg/ounce and I eat it about every second day. I have testicles and spleen weekly. Lungs are ok, but I only have them occasionally as they can be harder to find.

[@Alden99669]

My doctor tested my Vitamin E levels all 8 factors. The reason being is if you supplement with only one factor of Vitamin E it drives some of the other factors down. The best way to supplement any vitamin is to use the full complex from as natural source as possible.

[@Combinationlock]

Is feeling the best you have ever felt by eating a keto/carnivore diet but you cholesterol is high a health problem? Are numbers on a test sheet important?

[@dana102083]

@LIFTING THE VEIL its easy. No interventional study on cholesterol..zero.. Zip show that dietary cholesterol raise serum cholesterol. Pretty hard for you to argue against so many interventional studies. The most important markers are hdl to triglyceride ratio. If there is inflammation and metabolic markers off, ldl is important as it will be highly oxidized and small dense particles. With less inflammation and healthy metabolic parameters, ldl are light fluffy large particles that oxidize less. Id highly encourage you to watch ivor cummings videos on the topic. The latest comparing the theories currently used and why one makes more sense.

[@Oscar_AH]

Cholesterol is dangerous if oxidized by glucose. Otherwise, not a problem

[@viktorandre8545]

For measuring oxidative stress status only F2 Isoprostane is accepted by redox biologists

[@antoine8247]

Although this is a really good video, I'm really struggling to understand the concept of trying to solve for vitamin C in the context of a carnivore diet because unlike being vegan, being carnivore is a choice that is not made based on ethical ground. Hence what stops a carnivore from drinking a squeezed lemon every day? It's a very weird conversation from that standpoint. And why would one want to be a strict carnivore long term anyways to the point where you'd even turn down a lemon juice or whatever non carnivore food that would allow you to meet your nutrition needs? This is a bit ridiculous. Maybe I'm missing something here.

[@mohammedshadab769]

Carnivore diet is basically an elimination diet . in my case i feel really bad on lemons

[@expanding6898]

Funny thing is tho, one should be able to eat by feel? Like. You have say. Sourdough bread. Butter. Cheese. Nose to tail animals. A bnch of herbs and vegetables and berries. And then you eat what you feel like eating til you seem full. That should work. However. When i did drink raw milk as much as i felt. I didnt really feel like eating much else. i could feel like eating certain vegetables. but after drinking milk the craving went away. as if my body was asking for minerals of certain sorts and amounts. and the milk just took it all out so efficiently. As did meat often. I just dont really have any kind of cravings anymore. So who knows. But. it SHOULD work like that, shouldnt it?! Did we really have to think about it that much more... ? If we have top quality raw foods to work with (raw meaning fresh, local, well produced in proper soil)

[@savewldlife339]

Excellent podcast! Thank you to both of you! I’ve learned quite a lot on the “advantages” of NOT being on a conavour diet. 😉 I see the risks out weight any advantages. Definitely everyone is unique and utilizes nutrients differently, so for that reason you are your own biochemical puzzle. Good luck with that! It would be difficult to say the least ( and even dangerous) just finding what mineral, fat or protein your depriving yourself of. To find your personal “ ratios” of what is to high or too low, especially if one has a mutation or SNP’s. I find it to be a disservice to their body, brain and over all wellness. Take good care 🙏🏼😊

[@dana102083]

Sounds like you don't like organs..

[@elliottjames671]

You guys very slick😀👍🏽

[@wreagfe]

Although I don't think I have any symptoms, or pre-symptoms of scurvy I'll add a lemon a day. Maybe even first thing in the morning. (Might make me able to connect to vegan KZbinrs. ;))

[@1966MrAlex]

He forgets that the Q10 in the organ meat recycles Vitamin C

[@user-cm9ef4fw7m]

🤦🏻‍♂️

[@user-cm9ef4fw7m]

1966MrAlex u are a fucking idiot

[@delinquents212]

Masterjohn did address the broader idea that we don't have good evidence of specific claims like these, so we have to look at the best evidence that we do have when figuring a range for Vitamin C.

[@Kuato]

3:15 just start immediately after the Big Bang next time, save the viewers some time

[@pamelaschoenfeld9718]

Chris as usual you cut through the weeds and get to the meat of the matter.

[@MK-lf4kv]

How could anyoneone possibly get 10 - 60 grams of glycine from any cut of meat? 1 lb lamb shank only has 3 grams of glycine!

[@MK-lf4kv]

Also I looked up a couple cuts on nutritiondata.self.com (ground beef, ribeye) they both have more glycine than methionine roughly a 2:1 ratio gly to met. So where's the issue?

[@orbifold4387]

Pig ears. Normally included in head cheese, but I've seen recipes of fried pork ears. Each contains 5g of glycine.

[@idarhoftaniska2791]

I dont believe its masterjohn

[@kit888]

Looks like Chris is looking up at Paul, at close range. Creepy.

[@VaughnMalecki]

Soon we'll see carnivores saying "viTaMiN C iS tOxiC tO hUmAnS"

[@Nmethyltransferase]

"Noble savage" mythology, arguments from ignorance, grasping at straws, confirmation bias, and a whole lot of alternative facts. Not impressed with the carnivore diet at all.

[@viorelg9499]

Finally someone with eyes

[@TheRealRealOK]

Nmethyltransferase For some of us it’s a life saver.

[@_FMK]

The 'noble savage' era was only 3 generations ago. My great grandfather was in the no contact era.

[@Nmethyltransferase]

@@TheRealRealOK 1.) I can't contradict your lived experience. And I'm not going to begrudge you doing well! :p 2.) I reject the premise that carnivore is the one true diet to treat autoimmune conditions. For every case of someone doing better on carnivore, there are just many cases of autoimmune conditions getting better on plant-based or even vegan diets. 3.) Elimination diets aren't supposed to be forever. You really ought to work with a competent healthcare professional, and reintroduce foods slowly, carefully again. I don't live in your body, though. So... do whatever you want! :p

[@Nmethyltransferase]

@@_FMK The "noble savage" myth is the romanticization of indigenous people. I don't doubt the existence of pre-contact indigenous people. In fact, several uncontacted tribes still exist in the Amazon rainforest.

[@netto682]

👏👏👏🇧🇷

[@That_annoying_Rat]

Huh? Too complex for this beginner.

[@marcelomedina6862]

Do a vegan debate

[@someguy43210]

Waste of time.

[@karadevereux1049]

Great, try the carnivore diet, eat lots of meat and a few vegetables and drop dead from a massive coronary like my husband did.

[@WolfgangLizana]

Kara Devereux your husband ate a carnivore or keto diet for the years leading up to his heart attack?

[@IvorMektin1701]

@@WolfgangLizana Just a vegan troll. My dad at Pop Tarts and milkshakes and died of Parkinson's 🤷‍♀️

[@helloman5576]

@@IvorMektin1701 I actually saw a view similar stories on reddit, don't know if they are true tho

[@IvorMektin1701]

@@helloman5576 Parkinson's and Alzheimer's are being recognized as type 3 diabetes. My dad could anything and not get obese, but he developed cataracts at a young age and then the neurological disease.

[@carlcisc1706]

Heart disease developers early. Humans are complex and food choices impact each of us differently. Each of have to learn more about ourselves and then eat a diet that matches. What works for you will not match your husbands. Focusing too much on one food only works short term.

[@martinusasp8927]

Hmm. I'm starting to think that we should all be thriving the most on plant based and those who doesn't have some form of gut issues that should be fixed rather than feasting on corpses. Doesn't seem right to someone who has been plant based for 20 years and I'm thriving.

[@matijagrguric6490]

Food is not subject to thinking it but eating it. It's not a mental process. If you want to be taken seriously refrain from using corpse instead of meat. Thirdly N=1 wont get you anywhere. Besides you may be thriving but your neighbor may not, you may be thriving now and not tomorrow and also you may have convinced yourself that you're thriving while you aren't. All that I know is that when I'm breaking a fast my body prefers a pure meat meal to a point I'm feeling intense satisfaction while eating veal from the oven for example. No plant food can ever bring that type of satisfaction and that tells me something. However sometimes when I eat meat with a side of vegetables I find myself preferring the taste of the vegetable to that of meat and then I eat more of it. That's good enough way of eating for me

[@martinusasp8927]

@@matijagrguric6490 amphetamines might bring a even bigger satisfaction. Yay, let's go. Also, the longest living populations were all predominantly plant based. It just serms you that can't thrive on veg food have some kind of gut dysbiosis. Or addiction to flesh that makes you so hooked.

[@martinusasp8927]

I might be be wrong on my health but I feel better than when I was omnivore. All blood work is fine. No diseases, and seasonal allergies (I had it bad) is much better. Also had astma for a while before plant based and that is gone since two decades now. Yea I known n=1. But it's well documented how plant based reverse many of the worst diseases like heart disease etc

[@matijagrguric6490]

@@martinusasp8927 don't compare drugs to meat. It discredits other things you say. None of the people I know that don't eat meat look like they are thriving. They all look weak and malnourished and they all think they should not eat meat while they admit they are drawn to the smell but choose not to listen to their body. If your body chooses a piece of cabbage instead of piece of meat good for you but be sure is it your body choosing it or your mind. Take care

[@matijagrguric6490]

@@martinusasp8927 refrain from using such sentences as addiction to flesh. No one is going to take you seriously and you look like a dishonest person with an agenda. Longest living populations seem to eat what people with an agenda want them to eat as there is contradictory information about it. So don't go that route either please