the case of the golden idol is not a detective game

While mopping up some of the games I missed from 2022, I stumbled upon The Case of the Golden Idol - a slightly lesser known indie game that many people had in their end of year lists. The game itself was excellent, but I have a small problem with the way we have talked about it: it's not a detective game
This video does not contain major spoilers for The Case of the Golden Idol and you can watch the video having not played it. However, it does show several early scenes from the game and hints at several things that you may wish to discover for yourself.
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This video is not monetised.
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Games/Things in order:
-Neon White
-Hades 2
-Adios
-Papers, Please
-FTL: Faster Than Light
-The @PixelLit Podcast (it's not a video game, but it is a podcast about video game novels that you should check out!)
-Iron Lung
-Tunic
-Immortality
-Sifu
-Cyberpunk 2077
-The Case of the Golden Idol
-Return of the Obra Dinn
-Outer Wilds
-Unpacking
-Roller Coaster Tycoon (Thank you to @Chariot_Rider for the footage lol)
-Glass Onion: A Knives Out Mystery (again, not a video game, but still good)
-Sable
Music:
-Virtual Paradise from Neon White
-The Watching Eye from The Case of the Golden Idol
-Wine & Cards from The Case of the Golden Idol
-Alone & Dead from The Case of the Golden Idol
-Intoxicating Dinner from The Case of the Golden Idol
-Gentlemen Robber from The Case of the Golden Idol
-Slight Delay from The Case of the Golden Idol
-Friends for Life from Unpacking
Views are my own.

[@Flylice319]

I agree that there isn't a brilliant mystery that's uncovered, other than the Lazarus character. But in each scenario, you solve a murder using the clues in the scene. You listen to what each character is saying, and you analyze the environment and its small details - if this isn't being a detective I don't know what is.

[@GForce4]

Just finished the game and wanted to add in the final cases you have to make a big logical deduction to figure out the identities of mysterious figures that you can only do if you've been paying attention to key details

[@NoManOdysseus]

So... The difference between "detective game" and "deduction puzzle game" is just having an in-universe character?

[@miguelbranquinho7235]

This video sure has a contrived thesis, that's for sure.

[@eriodas4802]

he got a really bad take for real.

[@Andza84]

Hey, I am one of the authors of the game. This is an awesome video. Super glad you made it and really like the ideas that you raised in it. I would agree that we internally don't necessarily consider Golden Idol as similar to Obra Dinn. We had some different ambitions with it (like telling that linear story in an interactive manner), but it is a useful short-hand which to communicate what the game is. On the other hand, I quite disagree with the "detectivness" aspect. In my mind there are many games with detective themes, where you are a detective and commence investigation, but in players mind no investigation happens. So we tried to solve for generating fulfilling "aha!" moments which players have to reach on their own, even if at first overwhelmed by all the information. Likewise, I would consider Obra Dinn a detective game, but definitely not because it has a main character. It could have been removed and nothing in the game would change. Anyway, amazing video, loved the pacing and the tone. Subscribed.

[@VideoGamesAreBad]

Hey that's awesome! So glad you enjoyed the video. I hope I came across in a positive manner as, overall, I loved the game! I couldn't stop thinking about it for like a full week after I played, which is what lead to this video. Looking forward to whatever you and your team are doing next!

[@truanalain4266]

I don't mean to speak for the video author, but maybe I can help explain If you *weren't* walking around the ship, then you would feel like an observer and therefore not feel like your part in the gameplay affects the overall story. But with the implication of time passing as well as the oarsman making comments to you, you actually feel like you're in the world and not just watching it. You're right that being taken out of it wouldn't change much, but I think that glaring difference is what sets the golden idol apart--you, as a player, are just an invisible figure that watches the world rather than interacts with it. It's rare that a game treats you as an observer rather than a force that can actually affect the world in some way; even story-games like Dear Esther and Gone Home give you a PC that sees and reacts to the world around them, even if it's just in the player's mind like in Half-Life. Golden Idol is more like a game that you read as a book. And that isn't to criticize it in any way, only to point out why the difference made an impact on the creator.

[@rickpgriffin]

I'm pretty sure that no matter what, Golden Idol is a detective *game*. You are deducing clues and solving mysteries, there's nothing about that that's not a detective game or even that different from Obra Dinn's gameplay loop. You, the player, are definitely playing a detective doing detective stuff. What Golden Idol is not is a detective *story.* Most of the vignettes are *framed* as a detective story would frame them, but you don't actually exist in the narrative, so your deductions only matter for your own intrinsic enjoyment and have no effect on the plot. We even get to see a detective in the narrative, but he's ultimately helpless to stop the plot moving inexorably forward. So the plot that actually happens is a grand conspiracy that ends up unraveling on its own. You could sorta back-fill this by tacking on an explanation at the beginning or end, like "You are a detective trying to piece together what happened over the last ten years with these magic paintings" like Obra Dinn does with the Memento Mori and it'd be more diagetic, but... is it necessary? I don't think it is. I feel like any attempt to add more framing device to this in order to "count" would be unnecessary bloat.

[@DroolRockworm]

It wasn't really a mystery because you're given a sort of half-omnipotency that's just according to the whim of the creators. Like, here, you can eavesdrop on some people's conversations at the same time the murder is happening, you can freeze time, sometimes hear people's thoughts. But you can't hear the thought that says, "I did it." It's a bit of a silly concession

[@DroolRockworm]

Also, I can't seem to find this anywhere. It was clear to me as soon as the guy tied up in the bushes in the forest outside the brotherhood hideout had the letter from Walter Keene about meeting a guy named Lazarus (dead giveaway name), that him, Gorran, and Cloudsley conspired to infiltrate the brotherhood and Lazarus was Edmund Cloudsley with matter time decreased. But it doesn't make sense both Gorran and Keene would not try and backstab Cloudsley when they found out about the idol. Were they hypnotized? Why were Keene's eyes so buggy looking for most of the game? Also, it seemed clear to me Sebastian Cloudsley was murdered, but can't find that anywhere else either?

[@Bard09]

I feel like Case of the Golden Idol, Obra Dinn, Immortality, etc are all united under the umbrella of narrative archaeology games. They're about gathering data and synthesizing a story about events after the fact. You can apply this to games like Tacoma, Gone Home, and Her Story as well.

[@heatth1474]

I really like this framing. Honestly, despite the central mystery, I find much harder to call Outer Wilds a "detective game" than Golden Idol, but it is certainly a narrative archeology game (also literal archeology). Similarly, individually, some of the cases of Golden Idols do feel like detective games, when taken idividually, but the Cabin or even the very last main Case don't. However, pretty much all of them feel like narrative archeology.

[@AllieMeowy]

Wait, I actually think Unpacking might be a detective game…

[@TheYear2012book]

I hadn't seen any discourse before playing, so I went in to the game completely blind, getting it purely because of the aesthetics. I think a big part of what your issue is comes from what the game is being labeled, and not what the game makes you feel from point to point, which leads to that label in the first place. I felt like a detective, because I picked up clues from around a scene and had these wonderful moments of clarity where it all came together, a moment where I felt much more clever than I usually am because I put two and two together. The original Sherlock Holmes stories are mostly all quite short, and many were not connected by any overarching canon. Does this mean Sir Arthur Conan Doyle's stories aren't mysteries? Of course not. The characters were consistent (as they were in Golden Idol), but the thrust of the stories came from Sherlock gathering evidence, then solving the case with a flourish. The flourish, in this case, is on display at the start of each case in Golden Idol, and the solving happens backwards, with the player as the lead investigator, the "script" of the story coming from your internal monologue (or external since my wife and I played it together). This all being said, I really liked this video - I think you gave the game a fair shake, and even though I disagree with some of what you've said, it's clear that this is something that comes from a place of love, and I hope my comment doesn't impact you in any negative way!

[@pramitpratimdas8198]

Video talking about pointless discourse surrounding games then engages with that pointless discourse

[@anglarnasandel4428]

Where Return of the Obra Dinn is like a detective novel, The Case of the Golden Idol is like a bundle of detective short stories. That, to me, still makes it a detective game. All that means is that we define the label slightly differently, which I think is fine. Ultimately I still agree with most of your thoughts on the actual nature of the game, which is the part that actually matters, even if we use different words to describe it. I suppose that does reinforce the point that it's important to be specific when describing games: "this is/isn't a detective game" is just as incomplete a statement as "this game is/isn't like Obra Dinn". So I suppose when I inevitably tell my friends about this game, I'll be sure to include _in what way_ both of those statements apply to the Golden Idol. Anyways, regardless of whether or not I agree with this video, I's a great one!

[@gorimbaud]

I hadn't actually seen how Case of the Golden Idol plays before this video, and it sure looks like a game that I'd be into!

[@ElConquistadork]

Well, that settles it: I’m buying this game.

[@JonahHuffman]

I still feel that although the game as a whole might not be a detective game, most if not all of the levels were detective levels. I like to think of the dinner party as an example. You go through this scene seeing the end result, that someone has died from what appears to be a poisoning. From there you gather evidence and clues and try to infer motives for why some characters might want the true target dead, and why someone else has died instead. There's a very key "aha moment" at some point when everything lines up and you can finally prove you know what happened. The game does fail to immerse you in the world, as nothing is gained from your revelation and no main story can be studied in retrospect. So as a whole the game fails to be a large coherent detective narrative because no weight is given to your conclusions, but intrinsically you can feel like a detective as you piece each individual part of the story together, and then move onto the next. I'd like to add that some levels feel like they are less in the vein of detective work, specifically the cabin level. For the most part it does not seem like you are trying to uncover who killed who, but who did what with what, and the deaths are just an after thought. I still felt like a detective, but I was investigating a b&e not a murder. Which honestly makes me feel more like a detective, as my main drawback from the game was that a death (accidental or intentional) always had to be a part of every scene. I would have much rather enjoyed picking apart the aftermath of a will reading if the main point of the scene wasn't being drawn towards a man on fire, but due to the nature of the game, that doesn't drive the narrative. Regardless of where we stand on whether the game holds itself up as a detective game through and through, I think most can agree that it was a generally enjoyable game to play.

[@jogbearcool8594]

Excellent comment

[@Utbaut]

I think the disconection here lies within the word "detective-game". Most people use this word to discribe 'the case of the golden idol' because the game needs you to do similar thinking like a detective would do, while you use the word to specificly discribe a Roleplay-game that lets you play as a detective. Both are different things, and it isn't realy a problem of the discourse if your understanding of a certain word differs from from the rest of the people that talk about the game.

[@AustinAto]

The Case of the Golden Idol was ace. I had lots of fun solving each mystery set-piece. The creators did some fabulous world-building and that was a good foundation that makes your disembodied, omnipotent and stuck-in-time detecting unique. I'd just say to people to go play it. Regarding Knives Out, Rian Johnstone was recently on Marc Maron's pod talking about the nature of whodunnits and it's very interesting, definitely recommended. In fact he quotes someone who says whodunnits are really only fair to the reader/viewer if you're a bonefide genius with experience in the field.. they are, for the sake of narrative tension, being justly unfair.They're rarely ever meant to be truly solvable because they are, by and large, thrillers first. The Ustinov Poirots are a real joy and to do it very well. Murder-mysteries are really, basically a "locked room" thriller... as in how did the murder happen in the locked room where there was no one else? As a fan of this genre I think some of the Jonathan Creek mysteries are so extremely well devised and written. You come out of it feeling like you should be able to have solved it because the writing deftly conceals that actually you'd have had to had been Jonathan Creek to have ever solved it. It lets you feel the solution was within your grasp all along.

[@Nolrai12]

Yeah, that is exactly what the best of the Jonathan Creek episodes were doing.

[@yumberry97]

So glad KZbin recommended this to me, because now I can put words to what was bothering me about this game. It's such a delightful game, so weird and new, but it definitely isn't a mystery. Can't wait for what the creators of Golden Idol make next!

[@truanalain4266]

Right. there were so many times when the "mysteries" are solved by word contrivance or outright guessing because the clues only make sense in retrospect. Overall, it's just a story with the pieces missing. I thoroughly enjoyed it at first, but by the last mission I was out of fucks to give.

[@makki987]

@@truanalain4266 Nothing in this game is solved by outright guessing, some told the same thing about Return of Obra Dinn and it wasn't true.

[@eyeswideopen5320]

Got around to playing Golden Idol and wow… what a game. I agree with you that it’s not a mystery game, more of a straight deduction puzzle game (if that even counts as a genre) if I had to categorize it as something. But I think the beauty of the modern indie game boom is that genres are becoming obsolete. What kinda of game is say Inscryption? Is it a card battler? Is it a detective game? Is it an interactive story? I think it is all of them. I think we are truly living in a golden era of game innovation - from Obra Dinn, to Tunic, to Golden Idol, to Inscryption, to Forgotten City - I can’t think of another time when so many exciting and uniquely perplexing games have come out. Consider me your newest subscriber! I love the content and you absolutely deserve way more support! Keep up the great work :)

[@nasrclips2757]

for me, the mystery was finding out who tf lazarus is, very awesome game. hope the indie studio is able to turn a profit and develop other games of such awesome quality

[@robertbcardoza]

‘Turf stick’ is now what I will call wands in Harry Potter.

[@tortillachips3911]

It's like claiming youre a detective in Escape Room simulator games... Sometimes you are! You're solving WHY you're there! But usually, it's just the Getting Out of the game that's the goal...? Did that make any sense? 😅

[@djgamez1412]

The mystery in knives out isn't dumb and it's not calling its own mystery is dumb. The perpetrator is dumb and the folly is expecting an elaborate solution to a crime that was in essence and execution sloppy and badly planned. It's the difference between someone's public image being smart while the actual person is just a rich idiot.

[@vileele]

Personally I think Id classify it as a mystery game. I wouldn't say there's an overall mystery to solve but its more a series of short mysteries to solve with an overarching story. I see each chapter as its own mystery where you go through all three phases of deduction.

[@ThatDangDad]

Great review (which I say as someone who loved CotGI). For me, I felt like a "history detective". The game follows a timeline of, what, roughly 40-50 years? I felt like a researcher trying to follow the trajectory of this idol and understand its impact on this community, like some Lovecraft protagonist pouring over documents at Arkham Library before a racist cat comes in. It also reminded me of growing up playing strange passion project games in the late 80s and early 90s. A lot of those games just had some central mechanic and no "wrap around" world of characters and motivations. I kind of liked being a disembodied investigator moving through pure UI. I wouldn't love it for a 30 hour game, but for a 6 hour cozy deduction game, it was a nice change of pace.

[@dantevalehuntik28]

This just popped up on my homepage for whatever reason and I'm glad it did! This is a great video

[@mungeons]

bro the amount of salt casually thrown at outer wilds. god damn lol

[@VideoGamesAreBad]

Oh no, I love Outer Wilds! I think it's great. My issue with it under the lens of a detective game though, is that a lot of the essential information you need to solve the mystery is scattered throughout the world. So IMO, it's less about having a Big Think on the information you have and more about pulling everything together at the end. With the exception of That One Puzzle (you probably know which one!), if you're stuck on a part of Outer Wilds, it's very likely you just don't have all the information you need and should go out and explore some more, which is where the game really shines!

[@LunaAlphaKretin]

Stumbled upon this video after finishing the game and found it captured my own thoughts quite well. The whole channel, really, has been absolute goldmine so far from what I've watched. Looking forward to more!

[@ThePiachu]

You know, I did a weird experiment of playing the Golden Idol, then playing Obra Dinn (for like a third time) and then Golden Idol again to see how the various experiences differ. I have to say - the Golden Idol is much more enjoyable on your second playthrough since you suddenly get what's going on and you pay attention to the actors to recognize and things "click" a lot more. I didn't get that with Obra Dinn since what was going on and the people involved were pretty clear during the first playthrough, probably because you do a lot more back and forth in that game than the linear Golden Idol playthrough. The only big benefit I had playing Obra Dinn again was knowing the tricks to figuring out some identities that were a little cheap the first time around (like telling apart the chinese topmen). Plus also Golden Idol fails in the sense that you only learn what happened in some of the story by filling in the blanks. Like a good chunk of the epilogue was "wait, what happened that I missed? Who stole the idol when?", etc.

[@LeoGameMusic]

I understand and agree with pretty much all of your points, but I still felt like a detective lol. btw the Unpacking comparison was genius

[@seumemel]

I have many disaggreaments with the arguments of this video, and I should elaborate on that soon, but is an interesting discussion anyway.

[@redhemlock2099]

I think it’s not entirely wrong to say The Case of the Golden Idol is a spiritual successor to Obra Dinn or a least follows in Obra Dinn’s footsteps. The thing that both games do is be a story focused game with mechanics directly relating to that story while having the player be removed from whether that be from a meta standpoint in Golden Idol or by having the player character be mostly unrelated to the plot like in Obra Dinn. While there may be some differences between the games personally Golden Idol is the closest thing to a spiritual successor to Obra Dinn so far and both games are some of the best examples of games as a story medium.

[@nasrclips2757]

loved both of them, any other games similar ot them you would recommend?

[@Arcadology]

“Views are my own” what? In this economy?

[@VideoGamesAreBad]

if you don't put it in the description, the views police come knocking on your door in the night and take those views for themselves 😎

[@Evitrea]

It's still a detective game, like I'm sure I just spend almost 9 hours trying to figure out stuff instead of simply watching story unfold I can see your point though, it doesn't really push as hard as RotOD did on the detective aspect, they saved a lot of crucial information pieces until later, it was almost impossible to see right on the point where it's going It's entertaining af still, though they limited the scope of being a detective a lot, the last part still makes me feel smart... though just for a short period of time, but surely a detective experience

[@edwardsuou]

You are phenomenal my friend please keep making these amazing videos, I’m always searching for a reason to play a new game I didn’t know (that’s because I’m not good at understanding if a game is for me or not and I feel more comfortable when I’m sure there’s something in a game besides flashy presentation or popularity or people saying it’s good to adhere to a niche of refined people. You did just that with this game managing to talk clearly about good and bad things about it while also being coincise, this was a truly great video.

[@FrokenKeke]

Printing out reviews to comment on them is gonna be the next big thing!

[@Marthyn96]

This was a very good video, you earn youserlf a new subscriber. keep up the good work.

[@ThePrimordialChronicles]

Well I guess I have yet another *awesome* channel to binge watch 😂 Good stuff my man, I was iffy on getting “Golden Idol” for myself but now… I have to know *who* that *guy* is 🤣.

[@VIP-ry6vv]

The way you describe the case of the golden idol, when everyone else just throws it in the detective bin, is reminiscent of the way I describe games "like" Factorio.

[@jmugwel]

Your videos are awesome, wish you have more subscribers.

[@Skyehoppers]

A harryvideogamesarebad classic! Love discussions of genre and influence like this. Funnily I went through something kinda like this with Tunic, where I was expecting a Zelda-like but then my favorite aspects of zelda just werent there. But then sticking with it and seeing the unique qualities it did have to offer made it one of my favorite games ever in the end

[@MagicGonads]

Interesting, I've been avoiding Tunic because I DON'T like Zelda games... Yet another reason why making misleading analogies can harm a product. In your case if you still didn't like the game even after playing, then you'd surely feel betrayed by the expectation you had going in.

[@pickyphysicsstudent201]

I also never figured out "This Guy" until the epilogue chapter that directly explained it. I might have missed a line but the twist missed me completely. Even during the final chapter in which we've been building up that "This Guy" wants X and has spent years working towards it as his endgoal, it is revealed that is now going after Y, as well. In trying to get Y, everything falls apart in an incredibly anti-climatic way. This Y thing was never brought up nor was it integral to his character or goals. He just wanted Y because........ IDK. I guess a lot of poeple want Y in life but were there no alternatives to Y? Could it not have waited? He would've surely won if he just stuck to the plan. It bugs me because it felt like such a copout.

[@rockkicker]

wait this channel isn’t super popular ? with this level of quality that is criminal, keep up the good work man

[@anophelesnow3957]

Yes, fewer than 1,000 subscribers? We had better remedy that. Keep it up, VGAB

[@tomohawk2177]

You got a shoutout from the architect of games! Ggwp

[@jonnyducker]

I would say that it's a detective game (detective mechanics) but not a detective STORY.

[@DrRESHES]

Amazing game, one only problem with mystery games is that when jig is up, there is no replay value, It could be fun, but for how much ? I've broke my brain solving those puzzles for 12 hours, i can finish this game in half an hour... animations and music are great, I loved the soundtrack for the Lighthouse and the Inn (lower floor).

[@svenzedlitz]

Good observations. Very good!

[@SabrinaHawk]

todays the last day of the steam sale and this game has been on my wishlist for a while but all i have is a laptop with a touch pad with no mouse is this game easily playable without access of a mouse?

[@VideoGamesAreBad]

Yep, if you're comfortable with a touchpad for just using a laptop in general you should be fine here!

[@test-ml9wr]

This is the sort of youtube channel that makes me not want to make a youtube channel. So often I think of cool ideas for topic that i'd love to present in a long form way and dive into my own brain and others thoughts, especially with game design and narrative. And then I see you, making these amazing videos, and I think why bother. You already do it so well. AND you don't get rewarded with high subs like all the drones with thumbnails of them pulling a dumb face alongside a dumb title.

[@yeturs69420]

Cool channel, looking forward to watching it

[@ThePiachu]

Got here via Adam Millard's video, was intrigued by the game and decided to give it a whirl. Yeah, it definitely doesn't feel like a detective game, more of an adventure game where you mash things together until they fit. Like I can get most of any puzzle complete, but the last few bits are always a problem. Like hey, the murder at the inn - you have door locked from the inside, window that was clearly broken outwards, a stool beneath a trapdoor, and another room without a key and a window closed with a latch. The solution is that the murderer came in through the trapdoor... but if that was the case, why would the trapdoor in the victim's room have a stool beneath it, and the other trapdoor wouldn't? Another thing I find a bit annoying in games like this and Obra Dinn is when you know the face of the person that did something, but you don't know their name, so you can't just fill in the half-identity into a mystery as a placeholder to be filled when you actually figure out who the person is. I wished that was an option a few times in Obra Dinn and at least once so far playing the Golden Idol so far...

[@itcouldbelupus2842]

I'm always excited when you upload, you are a great game critic and are helping me to understand how to critique games in a more interesting and accurate way.

[@ThePiachu]

So after finishing the game, it felt a bit like a step backwards from Obra Dinn. Rather than having one big mystery to solve, you are solving many smaller mysteries, often with the same questions ("who is this person that you've seen before?"). At times it's also needlessly fiddly or obtuse - names are broken into two parts that you always put together in the same order (I guess the only reason to do that was so you could deduce some parentage names, not really worth it...). Then the characters often start talking in a convoluted language, referencing someone by a title or just one half of their name, or referencing a past event that you just have to exit the level and check back on. The boomerang murder was especially annoying for this, it was really hard figuring out the first and last name pairs even before you assign them to someone and you can't click that sort button otherwise all your work will be gone. Or in the battle where a lot of people died figuring out who fired the cannon was a bit of a leap. But then when you pay too much attention, the game also doesn't acknowledge it. Why was the footstool underneath the exit trapdoor? Why were the bishops on the chessboard in the same coloured spots if not to indicate someone hastily put the board up. Why were two people with bloodshot eyes if only one glass was drank (I guess someone took a swig from the bottle?)? Then at the end it turns out one of the mysteries you solved was wrong in the end (AFAIR the inn killer was someone different in the end?), which was just a little baffling. So yeah, there is definitely a lot games like Golden Idol and Obra Dinn could do better. Golden Idol lacking the central mystery is definitely something that's felt throughout. Both games not having a better system to link names, faces and filling in blanks in reports definitely could be a big problem to solve for the next contendor...

[@claudiag.9307]

Interesting comment! I I didn't notice the chessboard, what level is that? Some of the other things I think I can shed a light from what I can remember. The murderer in the inn was correctly deduced in the beginning, but you learn later that that's not his real name. If you compare levels you can recognize his face, also his pseudonym is taken from a tobacco brand in game, hinting that it's a false name. If you mean the footstool in the inn murder: that's the escape route the murderer took. Through the attic they went back to their own room.

[@thenixer209]

The inn killer being someone else was a red herring, yes. It shows that just because you may think you got it right based off of approaching a case your own way, doesn't mean that you _are_ right. Did you notice, for example, that the name of the killer in the inn also corresponds to another named character's always-present brand of cigarettes on their person? I especially enjoy that in the epilogue, the game tests your knowledge with a fill-in summary of the whole story, which helps you iron out any lingering misunderstandings of what happened in the game's events.

[@rylands4289]

❤️❤️❤️ from the philippines, will watch later haha

[@Ruminations09]

This video did a great job of putting into words my feelings on this game. I was many hours into the game wondering why the hell I wasn't enjoying it in the same way I did Obra Dinn considering how much I'd seen people talk about how similar the two games felt to play. Eventually I managed to get past that and enjoy it on its own merits, but constantly comparing it to Obra Dinn really hampered a lot of my initial enjoyment of the game and I feel like if I wasn't aware of people making those comparisons, I would have gotten into the game a lot quicker.

[@doge229]

The word you were looking for was "Diegetic".

[@matthewtaylor8876]

Watching this make me imagine a game about a time-traveler that goes back to [redacted] moments to record their events to help fill in gaps for an [redacted] archive.

[@synesalem7714]

It's an interesting video and I'm glad someone is thinking critically about mystery/deductive/puzzle games in the context of the larger genre. However, I would respectfully disagree with your conclusion that "Golden Idol is poorly described as a detective game". You are correct that the game lacks 1) an in-world detective and 2) a single overarching mystery to be solved, common features of the larger mystery genre. On the first point, I think the game's intention is to make you feel like the detective. Not the everyman logician of classic or cozy mysteries, nor the hardened, violent professionals of noir and pulp American crime fiction, but rather a role that is mostly unique to video games and paper and pencil logic puzzles: a semi-omniscient being, not part of the world or the narrative, whose only motivation is to use logic and skill to demonstrate an understanding of the designer's intended explanation of the events presented. In many classic detective novels, the detective is engaged in a battle of wits with the criminal, in a game, you are the detective engaged in a battle of wits with game designer. I say "mostly" above, because even in detective literature, there is always the metagame in which the reader attempts to solve the mystery before the reveal. It was a common expectation for the author of detective stories to leave enough clues to challenge the reader but ultimately make it possible for them to deduce the outcome. You yourself may not "feel" like a detective when playing Golden Idol, but it is clear to me that the vast majority of players do! They immediately relate the structure of each chapter and the methods of observation, clue accumulation, and deduction to classic detective stories. As to the second point, each chapter is clearly a mystery, even if the larger narrative is not. This is an experiment in telling serialized detective stories that pushes the boundaries of what mystery games can do! The game does not ask you to predict the course of the larger narrative, it asks you to solve each bite-sized mystery and enjoy the ride. Danganronpa and other games and even serialized detective stories have all experimented with this format. If the mysteries didn't compel you, that is fine, but it is a personal preference. tl;dr the game does some experimentation but still bears many similarities with the detective genre (and it's helpful for people to know that, IMO). Anyway, thank you for the video and broaching the topic and I look forward to watching more of your videos!

[@blade88343]

Architect of Games sent me.

[@KunjaBihariKrishna]

By what human hand did this video get recommended to me.

[@dopaminecloud]

Who is Lazarus Herst? Done, boom that's it.

[@SabrinaHawk]

*terf stick* good one lol

[@FranioBed]

I enjoyed The Case of the Golden Idol. I played it solely due to it's similarity to Obra Dinn. But even since playing the demo a few months back, I knew it couldn't compare to Obra Dinn, even though it tried to. And the reason is, I believe, there will never be a game that _can_ compare to The Return of the Obra Dinn. Because Lucas Pope is an artist. The game is a piece of art, and a masterpiece at that. I'ts not perfect, but it is a masterpiece nonetheless. Lucas Pope invented a whole new way of storytelling, forcing the player to backtrack the events, criss-crossing across time, putting the story whole, piece by piece. And the way he presented it, in a monochrome 3D diorama is unlike anything ever seen before. On his blog, or in an interview (I cant remember) he mentioned he wanted the _Memento Mortem_ to be whole scenes played out, fully animated and whatnot, but he ran into technical limitations. And he took those limitations and made it so the scene was just a single still frame, and it's so much better this way. The video game aspect of Obra Dinn is plain and simple, but there's so much more underneath that you can't look at it any other way than like a piece of art. Not to mention the score! And I'm not saying there are no other artist video game creators like him. There are plenty games like Obra Dinn that are pieces of art. But none of them are of similar scope. Also, there will probably be more games utilizing the diorama-deductive mechanics, but they will not have the same effect on the player. Because if someone develops a game from copying the mechanics, trying to capture the feel of another medium, they aren't expressing _themselves._ Also, I'm certain next game from Lucas Pope will be at least half as amazing as Obra Dinn. I'm also certain it will be nothing like Obra Dinn, or Papers, Please for that matter. And I'm waiting for it excitedly.

[@LostFutures1]

Hype Hype HYPE!!

[@johnmoore2434]

I'm God's Golden Warrior and its my duty to throw people into the street, Saints Row 2 human shield style.

[@Nolrai12]

I mean couldn't you say the same thing about like half the mystery tv shows out there? Like take Castle, I never cared one wit for any mistery that arced over more then one episode. Does that make it not a mystery show?

[@angelfu14]

That's a profound, well-meditated statement. This pushes the discussion of videogames beyond categories and classifications, as the negative approach of this video-essay proves. The theoretical discussion should be no longer a different collection of critiques that forces one thing to be other, but the analysis of what a piece of art is in its own merits. Essays like this really moves the discussion into the realms of aesthetics. A very nice and well thought video. I would also like to point that maybe the golden idol works like a McGuffin. It may be a pivotal thing into the plot, but AND SPOILERS AHEAD: I strongly believe that the storyline is focused on the character of Edmund Cloudsley and the conspirations he builds around. I also believe that the game has a little bit lack of focus but maybe (and I don't have a proof that confirms my next statement but here it goes) it's an exploration of how we build narratives. The game has a very fragmentary way of telling its epic and I tried to comprehend it as a different way (similar to novels) on how we tell our own stories. I believe that it could explain the lack of main character. The game is more focused on building an ambiance, a collection of scenaries intertwined between them but not a Main Mystery. I dunno, I just wanted to say that the reflections of this essay are very precise and focused. Nice video.

[@PanicLedisko]

I'm so disappointed in myself, I started watching a let's play of the case of the golden idol and half way through I realized maybe I should stop watching and get the game myself? But I thought that would be silly since it was almost over. After watching it to the finish I heard the person that played it compare it to Return of the Obra Dinn so I was like okay if that game is like this I'm not going to make the same mistake of watching it instead of playing it. I got the game and I *hate it*. It's really really annoying to me the way you walk around, click on the body, get warped into this weird area, then a couple seconds you're warped out, then you're back somewhere again and you have to walk through a door. I hated having to click on the bodies after like the first couple bodies because I realized "Oh this is the game then? This is the mechanic" it keeps happening over and over again in order for you to progress. I think case of the golden idol did an amazing job, faaar better than obra dinn, and I wish I would have played it for myself! I'm desperate for a game like case, it reminds me of the olden days of point and click and it's about solving a mysteries. It's SO good!

[@jim.....]

The demo to the sequal came out today, rise of the golden idol

[@disgustingPig]

I just played through the game because of your video and I got stuck on the last case for literally 3 hours because I didn't connect who the guy's real identity was. I found out AFTER I already solved the last case because the guy HIMSELF said it in the epilogue case and I felt so stupid

[@MrGrusome]

Ehm. Every episode of a game is a murder mystery. Every single chapter player been asked to figure out the details of a murder. And yet you ask “where is the mystery???”. It’s rather confusing when a rythorical question that supposed to have no answer turns into a rythorical with the answer so obvious that it doesn’t worth spelling it.

[@thenixer209]

This is a well-made but ultimately baffling video that I don't really see the point being raised in. An arbitrary distinction between a detective game and a deduction puzzle game being based on nothing more than a physical presence of the player is... well, _arbitrary._ It's the sort of hill to die on that really isn't worth the effort spent in constructing the fort, so to speak. In that yes, you can make an argument for it, but is it really a distinction anyone will pay attention to? It's a detective game, simple as that, but 'detective' is not a hyperspecific be-all end-all description, just an indication of genre like any other: though I suppose the term 'mystery' game would be more encompassing by comparison. Ultimately, are you using the term 'detective game' _literally,_ as in "playing as a detective"? Because that seems like a fundamental misunderstanding of how people describe games or media in general. 'Detective' in this sense isn't describing the player _character,_ it's describing the player _experience,_ if that makes sense. The character doesn't have to _literally_ be a detective, but the player has to feel like they're solving a mystery using whatever logic or reasoning the game posits.

[@aneonfoxtribute]

I disagree with your definition of a mystery as outlined in the Glass Onion part of the video. Glass Onion cannot be said to be a fair play mystery (generally meaning, it abides by Knox's rules, or otherwise does not hide information from the watcher), but that does not make it not a mystery. Mysteries can hide clues, that's just a different kind of mystery. The original Knives Out blatantly lies to you, yet it can certainly be called a mystery. Sherlock Holmes hides information from the reader all the time, but it is certainly a mystery. Mysteries are not constrained to being necessarily solvable, or having all the information given to you. Hell, Glass Onion is VERY solvable, you say so yourself

[@somniloguy12]

I find this video honestly kinda trite. Basically, your complaint boils down to the fact that the Golden Idol is not a detective game because it A) Doesn't have an overarching mystery and B) doesn't have a detective character to play as. Honestly, I don't really see how this goes beyond just splitting hairs about what we consider to be qualifiers of a genre. And by your own admission, this does not really diminish the quality of the work in question except for not exactly meeting your expectations.

[@jordanjamison97]

The mystery and detective work is you, the player, putting together the story as you uncover the pieces of the puzzle. The story unfolds linearly, but the mystery is player understanding how you got there and why. A detective finds a body, and their job is to put together the story to create the narrative. That's what the game is. The player is just an omniscient detective who has no part of the story itself.

[@meticulousgeek]

Obra Dinn was immersive. Idol was just mechanical. Both greath games but no comparison.

[@AshleighLaney]

Can anyone recommend a game similar to this? I’ve played obra dinn, immortality and her story too and loved those

[@catogordo8340]

Obra Dinn: Somehow a ship has returned. How? What happened to everyone? Golden Idol: A string of misfortunes (death) surrounds a particular family. Why? What is every character's role in this? The way these games differ is that Obra Dinn has a breadth approach, showing the complete story "as-is" and handing the player the job to make sense of everything, altogether, while Golden Idol has a build-up approach, showing bits that must be individually made sense of before progressing through the story. Those bits slowly build into the full story. They're not as rewarding as working with everything at the same time, but they're less overwhelming, which fits my taste a little bit more. But this structural aspect alone isn't enough to make a detective game become a puzzle game, they're just different ways to the same core. It's like comparing Skyrim to Disco Elysium and saying one is not an RPG because of how the other works. And if the problem is labeling, there are way worst things to complain about, like Indies and AAA, or PC (Windows) and any other operating system.

[@sorang807]

Although I understand the point the video is trying to make, the game still has too many detective elements for it not to be labeled a detective game. You have to find clues and establish motive to solve a murder. You have to use deductive reasoning and logic. You have to remove any preconceived assumptions and biases you may have and see the case from different angles. But do I agree that it is very unlike what a real detective would face: for instance the danger of chasing suspects, recognizing lies when interviewing people and finally presenting evidence. There is a bit of an anti-climax here: in a traditional detective scenario the suspect is put to justice. But here, you just go to the next part in the story. Those are just one part of the detective experience though, and though I would agree the experience here is not complete, I wouldn't blame anyone for the mislabeling. Especially when no alternative label has been suggested, not even by the author of this video. It's the same argument as roguelite vs rougelike, except there we actually have two different definitions

[@jamesteavery0]

I really disagree that Obra Dinn is a detective game. I see it as a puzzle game about paperwork like papers please, but without any of the action or affecting consequences that made papers please actually fun. The moment to moment puzzles are all too small to be considered mysteries (like the mystery of where you put your car keys when they're in your coat pocket where you always leave them), Many of Obra Dinn's puzzles aren't who killed this man, but 'what is this person's name' which is a rubbish mystery. The 'mystery' of the ship in general is plain as day from the first few vignettes, and doesn't matter to anything. Motives don't matter in Obra Dinn at all, they're just set dressing to make it feel like it's actually a detective game, they're not used for any detective work. I've seen Obra Dinn compared favourably to sudoku, and I'd agree with that analysis without the 'favourably', but I think we can agree that sudokus aren't mysteries.

[@claudiag.9307]

So from what I get from this is that there's a (loose) distinction between 'solving a mystery', which is characterised by the freedom to creatively and non-linear-ly work your way towards answering a central question, and between a puzzle game, which is built on completing tasks and puzzles in the order the game goads you to do, which is a bit like assembling an IKEA shelf. And the fascinating thing is that I feel the opposite way to you. To me, there was no mystery solving in the Obra Dinn, but there was in the Golden Idol. (And I enjoyed both of these games massively). I think it all comes down to your individual way of playing the game and taking it up on its invitations to consider the plot. I didn't engage with the 'mystery' of the fate of the Obra Dinn and its shipmates, I was busy playing a series of Guess Who and Spot the Knife while following the predetermined path to unlock more cool panoramas to look at, which all felt surprising and unconnected except for them being part of some domino chain or string of bad luck. The 'mystery' to me was only lore, something I could optionally contemplate after the end. I find that with the Case of the Golden Idol something similar happened whenever I focused to much on filling out the scroll and primarily relying on it for my thought process, letting it predetermine every step I take. But other than with the Obra Dinn, in this game it rather sucked out some of the enjoyment of it. But the rest of the time I really was taken in with trying to wrap my head around the scenarios and the central mystery, the mystery of what secret strings are being pulled behind the scenes, which I especially felt invited to by the game because of the connections popping up, promising to make every episode make more sense and to uncover extra secrets, and not least by being asked to recontextualize things and think of the bigger picture in order to progress. Also, from watching my s.o. play the game (and the DLC) after I completed it, I could also witness how it was possible to use different set of clues, different approaches and areas of focus, which emboldens me in my sense that there is a creative deduction process within the episodes, though from experience it seems to feel more easily like it if you bring out your notes, put on your (metaphysical) detective hat and orient yourself around your own set of questions (motive, method, lies&truth, accomplice?) to make sense of the murders.

[@sythe13]

I understand your point of view and I don't mean to paint not being a detective game as some sort of besmirchment but I would still be hard pressed to classify The Case of the Golden Idol as anything but a detective game. I think we just have different points of view as I don't think you need to be specifically tasked to find things out to be considered a detective. I think the unique thing with this one is that by ignoring proper framing for the scenarios, you simply progress through it to discover a sense of what's happening. It doesn't play like you are trying to reveal the secrets of the idol but rather the journey the object went on. A lot of the ambivalence others have can be completely dissolved with the idea that the idol recorded all the deaths it was in the vicinity of and you are interpreting the images. You are looking through history and deciphering the meaning of things until the epilogue where you can confidently state what occurred. It's like putting an ancient pot back together without knowing what it looked like originally or even what parts are the pot and which parts are something else. Or in this case, it's like finding an abandoned camera and combing through the scenes to paint a picture of what occurred. Anything obscured can be seen as a mystery with the right mindset. I would say Cultist Simulator acts as a fantastic detective game and that one starts with absolutely no information at all. The term is just a way to describe what skills we're using to obtain the goal. The key is your curiosity and satisfaction of solving the narrative acting as the driving force to continue.

[@flipthebuzzard]

Top form on this one sir ! Superb ....Just purchased 😂🎉

[@claptrappington5895]

So correct me if I'm wrong, but the main Problem with the game(s description) is semantics? Because I get the point. I just think most people don't think of it that strict and might get thrown of by the title.

[@laytonspuzzle]

While I agree the approach to detective-ing is counterintuitive, I think it's still a detective game. In Overboard you already know who the killer is. In the Phoenix Wright series there are many cases that lack connections to any overarching mystery - and even when there is a grander mystery, the characters aren't trying to solve it until they reach the very last case. Also, as for the final case's answer, I'm a firm believer that the best plot twists are the ones that have more than enough clues to guess it but leave the audience confused or tricked until the last possible moment.

[@adamvancleave9200]

Those 5 are your whole list of detective games? There was this one game that had a web of questions in each chapter. They weren't all one socket (per question). Game updates didn't keep up with system updates though and it pretty much died. It's essentially inventory objects going in the sockets not names and other words. What about all those "deduction board" games? There's at least one where I don't know why but they made the deduction board most of the interrogation process instead of its own thing. Deduction board=those things where you mash clues together to make little baby clues or something else to further the case.

[@kaygirl10101]

I mean, you're not really a detective in the narrative of Obra Dinn either, you're an insurance auditor.

[@kylenewhart6749]

super close on diegesis! the diegesis is the world that the story takes place in so elements that exist in that world are called diegetic

[@tortillachips3911]

Oh, shit! I've actually played Unpacking!!! Wow! A friend owned it and let me play it a couple years ago 😅

[@nevadastreak]

Idk.. you included Overboard! as a detective game but in it, you're the perpetrator, trying diff ways to commit the crime. I think thats not a detective game at all. And this Golden Idol is -- in that youre trying to find out about the MMO of all these murders

[@Oona_Mae]

This is a weird take.

[@maxwellsaponara1140]

If your point was that the obra dinn and the golden idol was different, sure, I could get behind that. But if your point is that “you’re not a detective in case of the golden idol, so it’s not a detective game” then like… what? That’s like saying Nintendogs isn’t a pet game because you aren’t playing as a pet.

[@alizah8042]

Playing the game rn, but not having finished yet, I disagree about there being no mystery to the overarching story. It's not a traditional mystery, it's kind of more like a gothic horror novel? Something is wrong and the specifics and depths of that wrongness are revealed to the reader slowly over time. We start the game with the clear premise of "the golden idol makes people go insane and do horrible things," the mystery and the thing that really transfixes your attention is HOW low and horrible the characters can go. What is the limit of the depths of depravity in them? Do they have any at all? That's what I'm wondering as I play!

[@rafexinate]

wtf is this video and wtf is this game. wtf is happening?

[@VideoGamesAreBad]

theres a man thats on fire

[@books4739]

I agree it’s not a detective game. It’s a computerised logic-puzzle such as you can find in magazines, but with great imagery and music. And the ending left me feeling like a twat. I felt guilty that I hadn’t worked out the deeper subplots but at the same time thankful that it was over.