The Changing of Zion

[@sirrichard87]

This is such a fantastic plunge into early LDS Church history. Nobody else gives this depth of clarity, with clear articulation, and wide perspective. I really appreciate how you step outside current corporate narratives, revealing human machinations, how early managers convoluted revelation. Thank you.

[@uncorrelatedmormonism]

Thank you. It certainly seems like Mormonism got off to a wrong start from the very beginning.

[@icecreamladydriver1606]

@@uncorrelatedmormonism Are you saying that the Book of Mormon is a fake?

[@uncorrelatedmormonism]

@@icecreamladydriver1606 No. I like the Book of Mormon and read it daily.

[@icecreamladydriver1606]

@@uncorrelatedmormonism That is good to know.

[@jaredvaughan1665]

This shows Joseph's feelings could intermingle with Revelation. Something that happened with tragic effect in 132:34-66.

[@uncorrelatedmormonism]

Yes this is true. It makes it very hard to know what is a true revelation and what is a false one.

[@TerriTurvy]

The question for me has now become - how much was truly revelation? Was any of it? When definitions keep changing, I wonder. I appreciate the timeline you give. Having grown up in the church with its indoctrination, I never questioned the application of "Zion." You have disclosed some real questioning attitudes and behaviors. It's like the early members, starting with JS, were gaslighted multiple times. A couple of decades ago, the church came out with a missionary video entitled, "What is truth?". It's still a question.

[@uncorrelatedmormonism]

Yes it is very hard to gauge. We call it a "revelation" which has a lot of assumptions. However, if it really was from God then why was it wrong so often and needed to be changed? What is truth is a very hard question to answer as we have so much baggage around the concept. Ultimately, most people define truth as whatever agrees with them at the time. This is not a good thing to do, yet it is so common.

[@PanasheGoche]

Dang. Mormonism is a mess. Everyday, I find out more that just makes me scratch my head. I wonder what the heck was going on in the heads of Joseph and the leaders that got them to make such a crazy mess of things. Why not just stick with the Book of Mormon and keep things simple? Could it be pride and wanting to do great things, such as establishing Zion? Could it be their desires overpowering the will of God, causing them to receive revelation from their hearts instead of the mouth of God? Your channel has helped me do two things: (1) It has helped me destroy the pedestal I had put Joseph Smith on, and (2) it has caused me to be more sober, vigilant, careful, and somewhat fearful of how I relate to God and His commandments and potential revelations to me. I often wonder what hope I have. If Joseph himself could mess up like I've been seeing lately, then what can I do? But this just shows that my foundation had been built on Joseph Smith instead of Jesus Christ. If I abide in Him without going off to do my own will and actually obey His word in the Scriptures and what He says to me by revelation (which doesn't violate the Scriptures) then I will be fine.

[@uncorrelatedmormonism]

I think Joseph really wanted to help people come to God, but did it in a way that he thought was best. I really like Joseph and would love to have a conversation with him some day. I also don't see him as "bad" either. We all have good and bad parts of ourselves. Ultimately, I think we will see that the mercy of God is so much greater than we can imagine. All he asks of us is to trust in him and follow his commandments the best we can. When we inevitably fail then he just asks that we learn from it and try again. God sees the end and the beginning. He knows that with his help then we can overcome all things. He just asks that we use his help. As I have learned more about the early church, then it honestly makes me very sad. However, I have also developed a deeper faith, love, and devotion to God. I truly believe God himself came down to show us the way. God himself is active in our lives. God himself died for our sins. It is God and he love for us, that is the key to unlock any problem. He simply asks that we show the same love to others.

[@PanasheGoche]

@@uncorrelatedmormonism I agree. I like how this person put it. "That is a mature answer. One of the first things I went to when I started having problems with LDS prophets was other prophets in scripture and tried my best to hold them to the same scrutiny that I was applying to modern prophets. It became very clear to me that they were all false prophets if I was going to demand perfection, consistency, inerrancy, etc. I, like you, also believe in God and I also believe He does not micro manage and generally lets us humans completely botch most things we lay our hands on and quietly nudges mankind on his own timetable. I have no prophets that I would ever blindly follow. I will listen to whoever grabs my attention and weigh their words. It might be a slow path to hell, but the prophet worship mentality and tying yourself in knots to try to reconcile different teachings became too much torture for me."

[@uncorrelatedmormonism]

@@PanasheGoche Yes, that is a good statement. I worry that the LDS people are so sure of the "truth" they have been told, that they will miss the future work of God.

[@truthbebold4009]

​@@PanasheGocheDaniel, Joseph, Moses, Elijah, Elisha, Ezekiel, John the Baptist, Isaiah, Jeremiah, et al? How does Joseph Smith stack up anywhere close to these men of God?

[@Avoicecyringinthesuburbs]

​@truthbebold4009 Closer than modern ones in my opinion.

[@CuriousThinker1776]

Great video!

[@uncorrelatedmormonism]

Thank you.

[@holyroller4391]

👍 we'll figure it out. I hope

[@uncorrelatedmormonism]

Yes I hope. Likely it won't be like what we think and some people will not be able to mentally handle that. I think the future is going to be a trying time for the members who have all the "truth".

[@gregjackson141]

The simplest and most probable answer is he made it all up.

[@uncorrelatedmormonism]

I do have a hard time believing the Book of Mormon was all made up. It is a Christ centered book and would be very hard for it to remain internally consistent. The Book of Mormon itself has so much going on in it. I am not claiming everything is 100% literal. Some might be symbolic, but it is all still consistent.

[@gregjackson141]

@@uncorrelatedmormonism I was referencing "The Changing of Zion". The BOM is an enigma for sure.

[@profedelasmontanas9023]

If you listened to conference today, you’d have the answer to this. It’s pretty simple

[@uncorrelatedmormonism]

I did listen to conference. You are saying they spoke about how Joseph changed the revelations? I really missed that part.

[@profedelasmontanas9023]

@@uncorrelatedmormonism did you just listen to elder uchtdorf?

[@zrosix2240]

You submitted a load of information and sources but had no point, what is your point?

[@uncorrelatedmormonism]

Joseph changed the revelations to suit the new situation or received revelations to suit the new situation. Does God work like this? Does God tell you to do X. However, when that fails for any number of reasons, does God hide that failure and ask you to do Y instead? Then repeat until something works?

[@zrosix2240]

@@uncorrelatedmormonism let’s say no he doesn’t, what’s the conclusion? That Joseph was a fraud? That Joseph was true at first but messed things up for everybody? Joseph was an esoteric mystic that had the Book of Mormon channeled through him but he overstepped his boundaries thinking himself to be more than he was and just started making stuff up the second he got a following? What’s the conclusion

[@uncorrelatedmormonism]

The conclusion is for you to draw. In my mind, either God is inconsistent and is okay with people altering his words, or they weren't words from God at all. I don't see how Zion can be "among the Lamanites" and then when this didn't work, for no fault of the church, then Zion is now "on the borders" of the Lamanites. This is so incredibly convenient.

[@uncorrelatedmormonism]

I do want to compare the original wording for the D&C sections and see meaningful differences from what we have now. In cases like D&C 28 and 57, we assume the later text is correct, but it really should be the former instead.

[@zrosix2240]

@@uncorrelatedmormonism I’m wondering what the conclusion you came to with this information is. Usually with challenging information I’m simply in an “I don’t know” attitude for a few months, which doesn’t bother me religiously because the only thing being true that matters is the atonement, before eventually slowly coming to a conclusion. But I’m wondering if you’ve come to one

[@jaredvaughan1665]

I find it interesting how Jackson County is in the geographic center of the US with fertile lands. Similar to how Israel is in the geographic center of the old world and the Nephite lands were likely in the geographic center of the Americas in Central America. But as the members were not worthy of this they adopted the whoredom of polygamy and fulfilled Jeremiah 17:6 by going to Utah.

[@uncorrelatedmormonism]

That is interesting. I am not sure if Independence really is Zion or Joseph was just making it up. However there are a lot of parallels between Israel and early Mormonism.

[@user-ql2id3ml3i]

The Book of Mormon is the only scriptures from that ear I believe in these days. D&C just got thrown out for me now. God wouldn't give you a task that you couldn't complete. Changing the words in a "revelation" makes it NOT a revelation.

[@uncorrelatedmormonism]

I do think a lot of the D&C is suspect certainly.

[@dr33776]

Jesus said by their fruits you shall know them. The “revelations” began before the BoM was published so Joseph could’ve been making it all up starting in 1823.

[@uncorrelatedmormonism]

@@dr33776 There is some truth to this. However, I think we can honestly say that there are a lot of good fruits of Mormonism whether intentional or unintentional. There is something good in the mixture of falsehoods.

[@dr33776]

@@uncorrelatedmormonism I agree, growing up in the church gave me good fruit and played a pivotal role in shaping my worldview and values. I can’t attribute everything good in my life to the church but they aided my parents who passed them to me. However, I always have to fall back on whether something is true or not. A good fruit is not necessarily a true fruit, therefore I think the evidence leads me towards JS was not a true prophet but taught many things that are true mixed with falsehoods. I guess we will have to wait to face Jesus to figure it out, I don’t believe he would ultimately condemn me or anyone that looks at the truth claims with skepticism and decides to follow another path to him.

[@uncorrelatedmormonism]

@@dr33776 This is true. It gets very complicated because truth doesn't necessarily mean good or even generally accepted as true like you mentioned. I do think ultimately someone that is searching for truth, and may be wrong, is going to be looked at much more kindly than someone that found something "good" and just camped on the spot. God wants us to stretch ourselves not to hide our talent in the ground.