34 Doctrines from the King Follett Discourse - Part 1

[@freesaints]

I honestly do not understand how you were disfellowshiped. You are so reasonable and respectful in your arguments. Keep up the good work.

[@uncorrelatedmormonism]

Thank you. You must accept the leaders in whatever they say. I think that is the problem.

[@freesaints]

​@@uncorrelatedmormonism Unfortunately, that appears to be the case. I suppose it's only a matter of time before it's my turn. However, that is frustrating to me. I believe in the Book of Mormon and much of what Joseph Smith taught. Most importantly, I have never been as focused on Christ as I am now. One would think that would be sufficient to be a member in good standing.

[@ajboyle]

Loved this, as usual. I think it's super healthy to question things, but all the while staying grounded in the scriptures and keeping God's Spirit with us. Ultimately God can show us all the truth of everything by his Spirit (and through study and effort), and that's the only way to truly learn and know. I recognize for myself that even with everything I know I am absolutely blind to so much of who and how God is. We aren't meant to be strictly dogmatic and accept someone else's explanation without question. On the contrary, everything needs to circulate through our heart, mind, and spirit until God gives us a deep enough understanding so that we can own it for ourselves. This has been the process for me--although I totally admit that many of the King Follett discourse "doctrines" are still beyond my ability to properly discern. But I'm open and looking to getting further understanding. Thanks for your thoughts on these items. They are very helpful. :)

[@uncorrelatedmormonism]

Thank you. I don't pretend to know what God and the next life is going to be like. However, I do think Nauvoo Mormonism essentially turned God and heaven into a continuation of earth life. Polygamy, law of adoption, and MLM kingdoms are all extensions of what humans would want the next life to look like. God could be a man. However I believe this is a human-centric view of things that doesn't really make sense. I fully expect there to be intelligent forms of life that look nothing like humans.

[@jaredvaughan1665]

Joseph compared time to a ring. With no point of beginning or end. The concept is mind boggling. I go out of my way to not think about it. My son asks me if God began in a point of time what happened before that? Again completely mind boggling. Joseph was correct in saying the finite mind does not have the capacity to understand how time is eternal and how matter always existed. If it didn't what came before?

[@uncorrelatedmormonism]

Yes, it makes no sense to me.

[@SirKn1ght47]

Thanks for this summary and overview; I plan to respond, though after researching and writing it all out (my responses tend to be verbose, lol). It’ll likely be on my blog, though I’ve been considering starting video essays too. At first blush, I will say there are some concepts which appear to be assumptions (e.g. point 1 where “knowing God” is presumed to mean “entering His physical presence”), but that might be an error on my part since I’m not looking at the whole lecture at the moment. I’m glad you have this video out; I look forward to part 2, and will probably shut my mouth until I learn something about this topic (to paraphrase Joseph). ; )

[@uncorrelatedmormonism]

As I mentioned some of these things can go either way. However for a lot of them they rely on "mormon" interpretations of the scriptures. A lot of them are also circular references to support the claim. I am not saying I understand everything. However I do think it is a bit of an alarm bell when we read about simple the doctrine of Christ is in the scriptures and then compare it with how complicated mormonism actually is. As mentioned in my other comments, I feel like I know God to a degree because I trust him, I rely on him, and I want to be more like him. Of course there is a lot to learn. However, I think if we have to obtain a set level of "knowing" God then most wouldn't make it. The person who dies in the name of Christ doesn't "know" God. Children don't "know" God. There are so many problems with the Mormon interpretation of things that have clouded everything. On the topic of blogs/YT videos. I personally have seen that I don't really understand a subject until I have studied it and put it into my own words. The videos are just there for people that don't want to read, which frankly is almost everyone. 😊 Would love to see your thoughts on this though. I certainly don't have all the answers.

[@SirKn1ght47]

@@uncorrelatedmormonism That's certainly been my experience too, in comprehending subjects; studying and writing it all out helps me crystalize what it is I actually comprehend. I also tend to learn things as I write about them, even beyond what I get from researching. It's a great experience, when the puzzle pieces seem to fall together like that. But then, I still need to remind myself that I also don't have all the answers. I don't think I've grown out of that juvenile deluded confidence in my own understanding. XD

[@cdub7190]

Jesus is pre-eminent. His words and teachings are pre-eminent as are the original twelve apostles who lived with and saw the resurrected Jesus and was taught directly by Him. No other “apostle” can claim this. Mormons have elevated Joseph’s teachings above Jesus’s. The lengths that LDS people go to ensure that all of Joseph’s words and prophecies will be fulfilled is astounding. Sadly Mormons trust Joseph and most LDS leaders after him more than they do Jesus and his apostles. King Follet sermon teachings are elevated above scripture by most Mormons. And there is so little to back up Joseph’s thoughts. Just like Nelson’s last general conference talk on the temple. Nothing to back up his words and Mormons prefer it that way.

[@uncorrelatedmormonism]

Yes. One thing I have seen is someone will make a statement and then someone else will reference that statement to support an argument. Later the first person will reference the second person and so on. Then it becomes a "body of evidence" to support the "dominant conclusion". Most of what we believe is probably wrong, however convincing people of this is almost impossible.

[@DangerMountain]

John 6:44 KJV - No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. So grateful that our Heavenly Father has called a few of us out of darkness (or this false light of Mormonism) that we now have the mind to recognize false teaching from the true light and gospel of Christ. All glory to The Father!

[@jaredvaughan1665]

"And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent." - John 17:3 (I'm quite surprised you missed that one.) Point 1 and 13 are green ✅️

[@uncorrelatedmormonism]

In this case you are defining "Know" to mean physical appearance. I think "know" means to understand, to trust, and to rely on. "And this is life eternal, that they might trust/rely on thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent."

[@jaredvaughan1665]

​@uncorrelatedmormonism Good point. One can say that increased knowledge of God leads to increased trust of God.

[@uncorrelatedmormonism]

@@jaredvaughan1665 I personally have never seen God and don't really feel the need to do so. However, I do trust that God is in all things and through all things. I believe that he works things for my advantage. If he wants me to die in a ditch then I trust that is what is best for me. Of course, this is all easy to say and harder to do. Knowing God is also knowing what he would do in a certain situation. Eternal life can be trusting/knowing God enough that you have elevated yourself outside of the carnal confines of mortality.

[@questioneverything55]

great video mate

[@uncorrelatedmormonism]

Thanks. I like your thumbnail image.

[@Kristy_not_Kristine]

What about the title Son of Man (of Holiness)?

[@uncorrelatedmormonism]

In the OT Son of Man simply mean human. In the NT Jesus used this term to refer to himself regularly and was simply a way for him to assert his humanity. He never said, "I am God. Listen to me". However I am a son of man, yet there is only *one* son of man and that is Jesus.

[@darinbracy8433]

5:00 - Not to support Joseph, but how can you worship a God you do not know? Also Romans 1:18-22 states that we do know God and yet we suppress the truth.

[@troyahuggard3355]

I submit the following to a few of the points 1. to know God to obtain eternal life is tied to point 4. Converse with God face to face. This “to know him” is synonymous with the second comforter /entering into his rest. The lectures on faith already taught the coming to know Gods attributes whereas Joseph refers to a more sure witness in the king follet discourse. He has many quotes on this subject. Moses 1 is 1 example we also learn from to Know God. D&C 84 vs 23-25 defines what Moses tried to accomplish with the Cof Israel to be accomplished in this life ie the wilderness but they would not. Ironically the saints would not hearken to this either which Joseph tried to teach them that may become the church of the firstborn. John 14:16-20 also uses terms as abide with or make abode as a reference to a another comforter experience. D&C 88:3-5 expounds on John 14:16. 2. Freedom of religion- nauvoo expositor destroyed because bogus plates were being used to print money - m.kzbin.info/www/bejne/oZ3Sp41jqLysfpY 3. God was once a man Jesus was a man and he becomes as his Father perfect/complete we are commanded in 3 Ne to also be perfect as Jesus and Father in Heaven is perfect. There is no other way than by Jesus and he did that which he saw his Father do And we are commanded to do that which we see Jesus do to become his sons and daughters and he becomes our Father. We obtain an inheritance which only accomplished through becoming a birthright heir. Msh 5:7, 3 Ne 9:17-20, Matt 5:48, 3 Ne 12:48,

[@uncorrelatedmormonism]

We don't obtain eternal life unless we have a literal meeting with God? This is not found in the scriptures. Children have eternal life with this. I am not saying the Nauvoo Expositor shouldn't have been destroyed. However Joseph and Hyrum were also scamming people supposedly. God was a man because Jesus said to be perfect like him? I don't understand the logic. When he said that he wasn't a human in the same sense that he was in Jerusalem.

[@troyahuggard3355]

The Baptism of fire and the Holy Ghost/ first comforter and parting the veil entering into the rest of the Lord ie sealed by the Holy Spirit of Promise who is Jesus Christ / second comforter are the endowments of power we must obtain to be church of the first born. D&C 76:51-54. Nephi, Enoch, Moses, Brother of Jared are some examples. To be an apostle of Jesus Christ a man must be a sure witness of Jesus Christ.

[@uncorrelatedmormonism]

@@troyahuggard3355 Maybe, however how do you support that concept without the D&C?

[@troyahuggard3355]

How do we become complete and perfect? We keep all his commandments and he justifies and sanctifies which is grace and mercy we cannot do for ourselves. Why was Jesus being perfect be baptized by water fire and the Holy Ghost and we commanded to do likewise? To become his sons and daughters. How did Jesus become the firstborn? Hint It’s not about his birth order. Yes the logic is clear this is why it’s a gospel from eternity to all eternity.

[@uncorrelatedmormonism]

@@troyahuggard3355 What question are you answering? Jesus is eternal? I really don't know what you are trying to communicate here.

[@antimormon-px1eq]

are you lds? uncorr??? because i admire your teachings, could you do all lds doctrines? and talk about freemasonry and like adam god doctrine and like other things sola scriptura to help me understand or like revelations 1:6 god having a father because im new a little to understand these thigns about lds faitha dn other churches if you could thank you! im just looking for truth!

[@uncorrelatedmormonism]

I believe in many of the ideas of Mormonism, but certainly not all of them.

[@jaredvaughan1665]

"Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise." - John 5:19. How could Jesus see what the father did if he was not also a man like unto him? Also, how could Jesus be the "Son of MAN" if his father was not a man? Jesus was born of woman and MAN. Number 3 and 5 and 6 is another green ✅️ As Jesus saw his Father being raised on a cross and be resurrected.

[@uncorrelatedmormonism]

You are interpreting this very literally meaning that everything that Christ did on earth, then the Father would have to have done on an earth. This is not supported by the verse. Jesus is an extension of God. He is an extension of the Father therefore everything he did was to support the Father. "Son of Man" in the OT literally just means human. When Jesus used it to refer to himself in the NT he was asserting his humanity. In Mormonism we are redefining that phrase and then using it to support the argument. This doesn't work.

[@MarkHigbee]

Point 14, and 15 Matter has always existed. (Isa 40:12) Who hath measured the waters in the hollow of his hand, and meted out heaven with the span, and comprehended the dust of the earth in a measure, and weighed the mountains in scales, and the hills in a balance? God measured the water implies that it already existed and he didn't put all the water in this earth, he measured out what the earth needed, in other words he organized it, or measured it out for this earth. He also weighed the dust or the mountains, or organized it.

[@josephaney]

Where to begin? I think that the place to begin is with Knowing God as one man knows another. Jesus said in John 17:3 "...and this is life eternal that they might now thee, the only true God and Jesus Christ whom thou has sent." How do you know if someone has eternal life? How do we know that the disciples had eternal life? How did they know that Jesus resurrected from the dead? They knew that Jesus resurrected from the dead, because, when he appeared to them, he said, "Handle me and see." They saw him and felt his body. How did the people of Nephi know that Jesus had a physical body? He was with them for three days and all the people touched him. How did Joseph Smith know that the Father and the son had physical bodies? When they appeared to him, they shook hands with him. If that is how you can know with a perfect knowledge that Jesus is real and alive, and if it is true that all those people saw and heard and felt, you can also know of the truth in exactly the same way. I know that Jesus is alive the same way. I have seen his face, heard his voice and felt his touch. In addition to that he has saved my life by his miraculous power. If there is ever a day when I do not receive some tidbit of revelation in a day, I have to look inside myself to see what I might have done wrong. I walk and talk with Jesus everyday. I know you have a hard time accepting the idea that the Father has a physical body, and Jesus explains this in Matthew 11:27 where he says, that no one knows the son except the father and no one knows the father except the son and those to whom the son reveals him. The Father reveals the son as Jesus told Peter when he declared Jesus to be the son of God, he said, "Flesh and blood has not revealed it to you. My Father revealed it to you." It makes me wonder if the father has revealed Jesus to you or if you are just a pretender. I know exactly when the father revealed Jesus to me when I was 5 years old, and I remembered being with them before I was born. So now, tell me, how do you know that Jesus is real?

[@uncorrelatedmormonism]

This is equivalent to saying we have to see God to gain eternal life, which is not true. You may have seen him at 5 however what does that mean? Laman and Lemuel saw angels and was does that mean for them? There are numerous scriptures speaking about eternal life and none of them say we have to have a physical manifestation. 3 Nephi 9 says the Lamanites had a baptism of fire and the HG yet they didn't know it. What you are saying is based on the teachings of the LDS church, yet it is entirely unscriptural. Satan can also appear as an angel, declare himself to be God, and then what?

[@troyahuggard3355]

The lamanites did know they had the experience because in Hel 5:50-52 they testified of all the things they had seen and heard insomuch the more part of the lamanites were convinced of them because of the greatness of the evidences they received. Did they know that it was called the baptism of fire and the Holy Ghost ? No but there’s no doubt they knew what they had experienced.

[@troyahuggard3355]

A physical manifestations being taken up to the high mountain a obtaining the promise of eternal life as Nephi did or Moses or as Enoch did in Moses 6 with God is not the same as angels manifesting themselves to men.

[@josephaney]

@@uncorrelatedmormonism Jesus said, blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God. You cannot see God without being pure in heart. When you are pure in heart, Jesus will, in his own time and in his own way, reveal himself to you and you will see him as he is. Seeing angels is one thing. Seeing God is another. There are three level of prophecy. The first level of prophecy is knowing that Jesus is the Christ, the one of the living God. I received that testimony with I was five. The second level of prophecy is knowing that Jesus is your personal Savior, after having repented of you sins and Jesus forgives you and your receive the baptism of fire and the Holy Ghost. That happened to me when I was 24. I know that Jesus is my personal savior. The third level of prophecy is when Jesus personally comes to you and gives you the promise of the celestial kingdom and makes your calling and election sure and takes you into his presence. This happened to me when I was 34. Yes, Satan can appear as an angel of Light and if that happens you can always extend your hand and if he try to shake it , you will not feel anything and you will know that he is the deceiver. It is true that you may obtain the promise of eternal life before he reveals his face to you, but eventually, he will reveal his face to you. When your faith reaches that level of faith, like the Brother of Jerad, where you can no longer be kept from seeing him. The first time, I saw God was when I was five, but that was not the only time. Why don't you want to see the face of God? Why are you afraid?

[@THECABIN-FC]

@@josephaneyWhy are you boasting of your own glory? You have an arrogant spirit and that isn’t of God. I’d suggest you humble yourself.

[@darinbracy8433]

6:34 - How do you know there is salvation through Christ, if you do not know that Jesus is God? The BOM is clearly wrong, but the terms are confused, salvation is by faith, faith in what? If I do not know where my faith is established my faith can be in a material thing, and not in the eternal God.

[@josephaney]

Let's look at another doctrine about matter. Joseph Smith said their are two types of matter, physical and spiritual. I want to expound n that. The Greeks had a theory that if you were to take an element and keep dividing it, you would eventually come to an indivisible particle that they called the Atom. So, in the modern era, scientist decided to test the theory and they took elements and divided them until thy came to the smallest particles of the element and called that smallest particle the atom, but then they discovered that they could break down the atom into smaller particles and discovered protons, electrons and neutrons. Then they discovered they could break down protons into smaller particles called quarks. Now quarks have energy and mass. Scientist can measure energy, but they do not know what mass is so they built a machine to destroy quarks looking for mass. they think it is a particle and they call it the "god particle". So they have this collider machine that causes sub atomic particles to collide, in the hope of finding the god particle. The particles collide, and the energy is dispersed, but there is no particle left over. The energy is still there, but the mass disappeared. They still do not know what mass is. So with that in mind, let's talk about energy. Energy is light. The smallest unit of light is called a photon. The universe if filled with photons, there is no space in the universe were there are no photons. Photons have always existed and they will always exist, they were neither created not made, so they cannot be destroyed. They are indivisible and forever vibrating. They are living matter. Photons come in three different colors, blue, yellow and red. These three color make up a spectrum of light. There are many spectra of light. The light we see in the rainbow is just one of many spectra. For reference purposes, I divide the spectra into seven levels. Above visible light, the is high frequency light. very high frequency light and ultra high frequency light. Below visible light there is low frequency light, very lo frequency light and ultra low frequency light. Photons move through space either as single photons, or in strings or in clusters. When two photons of two different colors travel in strings or clusters, they create the secondary colors of orange, green and violet. Most strings and clusters contain only two colors, but at the ultra high frequencies of light there is a phenomena where there are three photons that create a nucleus of one blue, one yellow and one red photon. The unity of three photons like that gives the cluster self awareness and you have a single cell, self aware, intelligent, light being, Joseph Smith called the intelligence. I call it the soul. or the essence of who we are, with is to say that in our first estate, we were, and still are at the center, a single cell, self aware, intelligent light beings. All of the single cell, intelligent, self aware light beings in the universe are all connected to each other to form an infinite brain, that fills the universe. Within the light is all the knowledge and all the power in the universe and the light is everywhere. The infinite brain that fills the universe was called in Hebrew, Elohim. Elohim translates into the word God in English. Elohim is plural. Elohim God is not a single individual self aware, intelligent, light being but is the unity of all. People have asked me the question; What was God doing before the physical creation? Forever, Elohim God, the unity, was creating virtual realities of all creation and imagining every problem and obstacle in physical creation and solving those problems. Everything as it exists today was foreseen in a virtual reality before it was ever created physically. Forever, we were happy being single cell, intelligent, self aware light beings, creating and living out virtual realities. So now, the question may be asked, "If we were happy being single cell, self aware, intelligent light beings, living out whatever virtual reality we wanted to pursue, why would we want physical reality with all it's problem and hardships?" It was because we could never rise above a certain level of happiness. We always stayed, more or less, at the same level of happiness and we could foresee higher states of happiness in a physical existence. We saw that the highest level of physical existence and therefore, the highest level of happiness was to have an immortal, physical body which was the perfect union of spirit and body so that we could do the same things with a body that a spirit can do without a body, the best of both worlds. With that in mind, Elohim set goal to create bodies for all the individual, self aware, intelligent light beings. So that is the goal, that all of us gets to have an immortal physical l body. So now, let's talk about mass. Mass is what makes physical creation possible. There are hard objects in space, that I am going to call eternal rocks. They have always existed. They are solid, inflexible and indivisible and 100% inert. Because they are inert, they are invisible. The reason scientists cannot find these invisible rocks that are at the center of all physical particles is because when they are released from the physical particles they have no inertia and stop moving and everything else moves around them, and in a few moments they are already in space. The beginning of physical creation was for clusters of photons to capture the eternal rocks to create quarks and electrons and to build on that to form elements and then compounds and eventually bodies, which we can get into another time. So let's get back to who or what is Elohim. Elohim is the unity of all the single cell, self aware, intelligent, light beings. made up of three photons, blue, yellow and red. Within each color of light, there is an octave of vibrations, in other words, there are twelve harmonic vibrations that create a musical scale. Now, there is no hierarchy in Elohim and no single being rules the rest , but each photon at rest, will fall into one of the twelve harmonic notes and that note defines your being so there are twelve levels of Elohim beings. In the physical creation, there are 5 general levels, Using Joseph Smith terminology, there are telestial beings, terrestrial being and celestial beings. Among celestial beings, there are three levels, the highest being exaltation. Exaltation is no something you can achieve. Whatever level you resurrect at is the level you grow into. You can always stop short of the level you were in the beginning, but you cannot grow above the level you have always been. So using a scale from A to L, there are A beings, B beings, etc. until you get to L beings, Arbitrarily speaking, beings who are A-F are telestial beings, G-I are terrestrial beings and J, K and L beings are celestial beings. Father in Heaven, Jesus, the Holy Ghost, and all the major prophets and apostles are L beings for sure, but there are L beings among all races and lineages. There is a higher percentage of L beings among the chosen lineage but L beings are not exclusive to the chosen lineage nor is the chosen lineage 100% J, K, or L beings. The goal of human existence is to grow to the highest potential of your Spiritual being, and your highest level of happiness.

[@MarkHigbee]

Point 10 is definitely not conjecture. How many people die knowing all that God does? In order to inherit all that God has and have the same relationship with Jesus that he has with his Father a lot of learning will take place. Again see Rev 21:7.

[@MarkHigbee]

Point 4, God doesn't have different forms he has the same form as man we are created in his image. See Genesis 1, John 14, Luke 24, 1 Cor 15. The Bible says Moses spoke with God face to face. (Exodus 33:11) And the Lord spake unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend. And he turned again into the camp: but his servant Joshua, the son of Nun, a young man, departed not out of the tabernacle. See 1 Corinthians 15 for more about the heavenly image vs the earthy image.

[@jaredvaughan1665]

Book of John Chapter 10: 34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? 35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken; 36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God? Number 7 is another green ✅️ I notice you don't even mention scriptures that contradict your points. There is about 10 other scriptures I could reference there being a plurality of Gods. And that imply we can be as God. Including "Be ye therefore perfect as your Father in Heaven is perfect." Lucifer telling Eve she could be as God by taking the forbidden fruit was actually true. And nearly all early church Fathers wrote about man's capacity to be a God. There are many videos on this. The concept was lost during the apostasy. Until finally the Nicene Creed blotted it out. A Creed you seem to subconsciously support.

[@uncorrelatedmormonism]

The problem with this is it is entirely based on your Mormonism understanding. No other Christian group reads those scriptures with your understanding so maybe there is a different understanding. We are "gods" when we organize chaos. We are "gods" when we create life. We are "gods" when we rule fairly. Yes "ye are gods". However, no where in the Jewish law did it ever say they could become Gods. So Christ was wrong when he said that if he was meaning your understanding.

[@troyahuggard3355]

The other groups only have the Bible which has many books removed or altered. This is probably why God wanted to reveal things from before the foundation of the world. Are you saying Mormonism is only true if we can find all of its doctrines in other religions? I define Mormonism 1829-1844. Why then would God restore the fullness if it was already upon the earth?

[@uncorrelatedmormonism]

@@troyahuggard3355 No I am not saying that. I am saying though that it is very easy to invent things and then use them as evidence to support your beliefs. Joseph taught a very clear and simple Gospel in the 1830's. Then in the 1840's it become very complicated and based on rites and rituals found nowhere else. The Book of Mormon speaks of a simple doctrine of Christ, yet today Mormonism is anything but simple.

[@troyahuggard3355]

I agree. I give space for grace upon grace line upon line. He understood at the end much more than in the beginning. Trying to call his people to repentance that they might not incur the wrath of a just God . That his garments would be clean from the blood and sins of that generation. They fall to pieces like glass. I hear a very wearied man in the King Follett discourse, who knows his people are standing in the light but they perceive it not. He sounds to me like Alma and Amuleck in Alma 11 and 12 culminating in Alma 13 with heavy doctrine that they would not understand. If they were humble would have received with gladness and if not it hardened their hearts unto murder. Joseph’s fate was not to be delivered from his enemies then but to seal up the testimony and they reveal their true master. For within months those whom he was going to excommunicate were ready to exercise keys of the priesthood they had not been given by God.

[@uncorrelatedmormonism]

The church fathers taught we can become like God and rule with him in his divine council. However they never once taught we would be Gods and replace him while he moves up to something else. The church fathers were also supposedly in apostasy yet they had hidden knowledge? This is what the fathers said. "Our God did not begin to be in time: He alone is without beginning, and He Himself is the beginning of all things. God is a Spirit, not pervading matter, but the Maker of material spirits, and of the forms that are in matter; He is invisible, impalpable, being Himself the Father of both sensible and invisible things." "But the things established are distinct from Him who has established them, and what have been made from Him who has made them. For He is Himself uncreated, both without beginning and end, and lacking nothing. He is Himself sufficient for Himself; and still further, He grants to all others this very thing, existence; but the things which have been made by Him have received a beginning."

[@MarkHigbee]

Point 3 comes from John 14, Genesis, Acts 17, Psalm 82, 1 Cor 15 (John 14:7) If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him Jesus was a man and tells and was the same as his Father. Jesus also tells us he does what he saw his Father do. Joseph is essentially saying the reverse of Genesis that says man was created in the image of God. If you looked into heaven and saw God, he would look like a man. We are also the offspring or family of God, so we are like him. See Acts 17:28-29. We are elohim or the gods children of the most High. See Psalm 82. And in 1 Corinthians it talks about the second man from heaven is the Lord. (1 Cor 15:47-49) The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven. 48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. 49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

[@uncorrelatedmormonism]

Jesus and the Father are obviously linked. However there is no indication that Jesus is saying he saw the Father as a man once so therefore he is doing whatever he saw the Father do. That is completely you interpretation.

[@MarkHigbee]

@uncorrelatedmormonism so when the scripture says seen him, it doesn't mean seen him? There is nothing to interpret. Either seen him means seen him or it doesn't. Again, see John 14:7

[@uncorrelatedmormonism]

@@MarkHigbee Your understanding of things is so confusing. Jesus is telling the disciples here that they don't need to see the Father because if they have seen him then they have seen the Father. Seen here can have many different meanings. However in no meaning does it mean seen the Father on an earth at a distant point in time.

[@DangerMountain]

Mark... Jesus was telling his disciples, who were jews, that if they had known Him (even though they'd seen Him and walked with him for many days, they didn't truly know Him), they'd also recognize Him as YHWH from the old Covenant and that the transition to the everlasting covenant was now at hand.

[@MarkHigbee]

@uncorrelatedmormonism Again, if you have eyes to see and ears to hear. Seen him means what it means. If you have known the Son, you have seen the Father. The scripture means exactly what it says. Again, we can accept what it says or not.

[@MarkHigbee]

Point 7, 8, and 9. (Rev 21:7) He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son. For the elohim or gods that overcome they can have the same relationship with Jesus as he as with his Father. In other words they can become like him adding glory to the Father or the most high. The title the most high implies levels. If you have eyes to see and ears to hear, there are scriptures that support becoming like Jesus and what Joseph taught. Jesus did follow the pattern of his Father... again see John 5:19 and Rev 21:7.

[@uncorrelatedmormonism]

Becoming a son of God is a covenant relationship.

[@MarkHigbee]

@uncorrelatedmormonism Yes, you are correct. We can become his eternal family if we do what he says along with our family members. This is the Abrahamic covenant, which is a marriage covenant and extended to all his descendants and righteous people who are adopted. Abraham would not have a posterity without his wives. (Mark 3: 33-35) And he answered them, saying, Who is my mother, or my brethren? 34 And he looked round about on them which sat about him, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren! 35 For whosoever shall do the will of God, the same is my brother, and my sister, and mother.

[@MarkHigbee]

Point 1 and 13 come from John 17:3. If we want to have a life like God or eternal life, we need to know him and his Son. We come to know God through Jesus by doing what he says and coming to know him through faith, repentance, and a broken heart and contrite spirit. If we come to know Jesus we will come to know his Father. I suggest you study the entire chapter. (John 17:3) And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent If you look a little harder or get more familiar with the teachings of Joseph Smith, you will find that they are backed up by the scriptures. The book The Words of Joseph Smith is a good place to start as it has many scripture references that go along with what Joseph taught, including the King Follet discourse.

[@uncorrelatedmormonism]

You mean point 1 comes from your interpretation of John 17:3. No other Christian groups interprets it that way.

[@MarkHigbee]

@uncorrelatedmormonism If you have eyes to see and ears to hear, it's very clear. The difference between Mormons and other Christians is, Mormons believe the Bible while the others do not.

[@MarkHigbee]

@uncorrelatedmormonism Again, the difference between Mormons and other Christians is, Mormons believe the Bible while the others do not. This quote comes from Joseph Smith, and you're demonstrating how true it is..

[@uncorrelatedmormonism]

@@MarkHigbee Joseph also said people lived on the moon and some of the elders at the time would serve missions there. Does that make it true though?

[@MarkHigbee]

@uncorrelatedmormonism Since this is nowhere in the scriptures, it is obviously false. Again thankfully we have the scriptures as a guide.

[@petervincent3560]

I have appreciated your talks very much. This one does not resonate with me.

[@uncorrelatedmormonism]

Thanks for the feedback. This one probably covered too much. I was afraid of making something that was 4 or 5 hours.

[@MarkHigbee]

Point 16 and 17. Isaiah 43:10 ... before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me. The gods or elohim have always existed they are not formed or created. We could not become like God if had a beginning. God has no beginning and no end. The elohim or gods descend into mortal bodies, just as Jesus did. They are then resurrected back into spiritual bodies with more or less glory. See 1 Cor 15 there are earthly and heavenly bodies and the earthly is resurrected back to the heavenly or spiritual.

[@uncorrelatedmormonism]

You are saying Joseph was wrong. He clearly said that God wasn't always a god.

[@MarkHigbee]

@uncorrelatedmormonism No, you're not understanding what Joseph Smith said. He said God has always existed he has no beginning or end, and he didn't have the power to create himself. He was a God, an eternal being that descended into a mortal body, just like Jesus did. So yes, he was a man who walked on an earth the same as Jesus and us. We are elohim or the race of gods that has no beginning or end.

[@uncorrelatedmormonism]

@@MarkHigbee You are mixing concepts here. Yes Joseph said God existed forever as an intelligence, however he most certainly wasn't always a god. He had to work his way up from intelligence, to human, to god. "For we have imagined that God was God from the beginning of all eternity. I will refute that idea and take away the veil so you may see."

[@MarkHigbee]

@uncorrelatedmormonism No, I'm not mixing concepts. If you want to understand the Father, look to the Son. Jesus is the way. He is using God as a title.

[@uncorrelatedmormonism]

@@MarkHigbee Then the word 'God' is meaningless, and your previous comment is clearly wrong. 'God' did have power to create himself since he was created by 'God'.

[@MarkHigbee]

Point 5 and 6. (John 5:19)Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise. The son does what he saw the Father do. What did Jesus do? He descended into mortality, like his Father did. He died and was resurrected like his Father. The Son can do nothing but what he seeth the Father do. We don't have to redefine God. Elohim or gods are eternal beings and they can descend and dwell in mortal bodies that are resurrected back into the spiritual bodies they had before they descended. See 1 Corinthians 15. They are not formed or created see Isaiah 43:10 meaning they have always existed.

[@uncorrelatedmormonism]

You are basing a fundamental doctrine on a scripture like that?

[@MarkHigbee]

@uncorrelatedmormonism If you have eyes to see and ears to hear. I learned this scripture from what Joseph Smith taught. He quotes it when talking about this subject that you claimed is not in the scriptures.

[@uncorrelatedmormonism]

@@MarkHigbee The problem is you are injecting massive interpretation into that scripture and then using that to claim something that is wildly different from anything else. If you have eyes to see and ears to hear you will understand that God is a purple unicorn that dwells eternally in a marshmallow cloud. The scriptures are abundantly clear about this everywhere you look.

[@MarkHigbee]

@uncorrelatedmormonism No, the problem is some people don't have eyes to see and ears to hear like it says all over the NT. This is one of many stumbling blocks in the scriptures. It's right there in plain sight for those who have eyes to see and ears to hear. There are many things implied in the scriptures that most will not accept because again, they don't have eyes to see or ears to hear. This is the reason Jesus had to teach in parables. (Math 13:10-16) And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables? 11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given. 12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath. 13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand. 14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive: 15 For this people’s heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them. 16 But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.