I’ll be using this as a space to clarify and update anything. - I’ve realized I kinda glossed over Joshua’s death; here are some additional points. Joshua is portrayed as the weaker of the brothers and needed Clive to protect him (a la sworn Shield), so Joshua being the one who actually saved Clive in the end by gifting his Eikon’s strength to him is what would round out his story arc. Otherwise, Joshua’s character role by the end is pretty static, just being the one with a Shield to protect him all the time, be it Clive or the Undying. Him becoming Clive’s shield adds a lot more flavor. Now on the ending scene. If Clive did indeed think Joshua could be revived and intended to do just that, then I think he would have checked the body for any sign of life after his casting, or at least have shown more of a reaction afterward in general. Clive not expecting the spell to actually work, or him not even intending to revive Joshua thinking/knowing it would be futile, would explain his lack of any further action or strong reaction after his casting. I mean, let’s face it: he would absolutely express strong emotions if a revival attempt worked. If a successful revival were to be confirmed, then, in the scene, if Joshua were able to regain a heartbeat, a pulse, a breath, _anything,_ I view Clive’s lack of making sure, let alone any big reaction, as a forced directorial decision to facilitate an open ending for the time being-not the greatest look. The scene’s events as they are make more sense with the idea that he didn’t try to revive him. - Dion already fills the role of “main character who sacrifices themselves in the end.” The story doesn’t need another character doing the same thing in Clive. Clive’s story is about taking care of and saving himself, but Dion’s story never has any focus on this. He gives his life for the cause in the hope of forgiveness, as he already couldn’t live with himself after Twinside. He mentions himself that he doesn’t have much to come back to, but even if he were able to for Terence and Harpocrates, I wonder if the regrets he has for the past would ever stop tormenting him. He seems very at peace with not coming back, and, based on his final dialogue, he is happy that he could be instrumental to stopping Ultima because of avenging his father, not because he saw that this would personally redeem himself. - “Why does Clive swear he’ll end magic even if it means the end of him? Hasn’t he learned his lesson of martyrdom not being cool to the people in his life?” I have mixed feelings on that moment. I don’t think it shatters any theories of mine, I just find it sorta odd from particular angles. It’s common for people to have some regressions after deep tragedy befalls them, and losing Joshua of course fits the bill. He’s desperate and expressing how far he’ll go to make things right. In this light, I can accept the line. On the other hand, it seems like it’s really only there to build tension in the moment and make viewers worry if he’ll actually make it out of this. Basic & reliable writing tactic, aims to facilitate the official “openness” of the ending. Regardless, I think it’s only fair that the narrative would award Clive with a continued life, both for his strong resolve to fix the world, and for his newfound willingness to hear out the wishes of those who care for him to try and make it back to them. The latter in particular is a big character moment for him (comes to a head at Shadow Coast). It’s not like this single moment at the ending would uproot all his thematic progress and circumvent any good that would come to him as a result of said progress. - Proof the ending is officially open (director interview): reddit.com/r/FFXVI/s/dZclOmSBdB - For those who think hours could have passed between Jill looking outside and her witnessing the dawn: we see her run from the infirmary to the edge of the mess in that same cut. There was no time jump. - An alternate theory I see working regarding the book is that Clive and Jill have a son named Joshua, and he writes the book, having access to the firsthand accounts of Clive and co. Basically the same thing, but without Clive doing his moniker-adopting. - I don’t mention _The Saint and The Sectary_ because I don’t see why it would only be known to Clive and Byron, and therefore doesn’t really work as evidence for the point that Clive must have written the book. That almost assumes that Joshua barely had a part in Clive’s life during their Rosalith days. And I’m sure that in the offscreen time the characters have together, they would recount stories of adventures to people who weren’t with them at the time. If not Clive or Jill, then absolutely Byron would tell Joshua of how Clive won his trust by performing the part of Sir Crandall without skipping a beat. Also, we have no idea how popular _The Saint and The Sectary_ really is in their world. Perhaps it just stood the test of time. - Here’s my full text that I threw at you from 06:11 Actually, not quite. The game does nothing to truly develop this aspect of Eikons any further than the couple lines at the Ironworks… so let me try. If it were true that Dominants could sense each other anytime and anywhere, then we the audience should never have seen Cid, Jill, Dion and eventually Clive believe nor continue to believe that Joshua died at Phoenix Gate. Before his return to the spotlight, these characters all either speak of Joshua as though he’s dead, or explicitly express shock at the reveal of his survival. Given that, in reference to Barnabas, Clive says “He’s here… I can feel him.” when reaching the top of Reverie, I believe this “ability” to be proximity-based. The center of the Naldia Narrow is not too far from the Ironworks, so it makes sense that Clive and Joshua could still feel something of Shiva’s aether. But, one may ask, if this talk of vicinity were true, how could Cid and Benedikta never notice for themselves that Clive is a Dominant? They are both first made witness to his priming before knowing. Actually, forget vicinity here, how could this be possible at all if the aether of a Dominant’s Eikon is detectable by other Dominants? Well, given that neither Jill nor Clive could sense Joshua either as he was trailing them at the Phoenix Gate ruins, I believe an Eikon’s readable aether may wane to eventually undetectable levels the longer their Dominant goes without priming. Clive went 13 years, and Joshua presumably went 18. All in all, this interpretation of Eikon-sensing would render it impossible for Jill to sense the aether of Ifrit, the Phoenix, or Bahamut all the way from the Hideaway to the coast of the Narrow in order to conclude any of them may be dead. If/when any of them died, she could not possibly know through this “ability.” This would also explain why Jill doesn’t mourn Joshua (or Dion, I guess). By the way, sensing an Eikon is not restricted to post-Primogenesis, as Benedikta senses Cid when he and Clive approach Caer Norvent.
@BioAlpha54 ай бұрын
Also Barnabas says "that body does not pay for its avarice" alluding to the curse, plus mythos is made to channel nigh unlimited amounts of Aether.
@shodai20543 ай бұрын
@@BioAlpha5 The curse taking Clive’s hand shows that Barnabas, and by extension Ultima, were wrong about the height of Clive’s resilience. He is the most resistant, of course, but evidently not immune. He’s also never pulled off a feat comparable to this beforehand, so it’s unclear how much damage this would actually have dealt him. It may have been enough just to finally get the curse to start affecting him, or it may have been enough to kill him. Furthermore, we don’t really know too much about the curse’s manner of spreading. Bearers can cast individual spells with seemingly no immediate cost. But, not only are we not certain that there is no immediate cost, we have no idea how or if this is tied to whether the curse has begun acutely affecting them. Does the curse do nothing until, say, the final 20% or so of the bearer’s capabilities? Or does it slowly-but-steadily begin from the get-go, only really showing its fangs after each time the bearer casts something of egregious proportions? Does it affect bearers and Dominants in unique processes, more than just Dominants being more resistant by default? All this to say: saying “bro is built different” is not exactly close to ironclad proof that he would survive this never-before seen exertion, because we know little enough about it to also be able to conclude “bro wasn’t built different enough.” Therefore I didn’t include it. P.S.: this entire point is mute when considering the curse ended when magic ended. Whether or not it would have killed him doesn’t matter because it stopped existing.
@mizutofu2 ай бұрын
this video doesn't even mention in the epilogue, the 2 little kids try to reenact the play The Saint and the Sectary is more convincing evidence that Clive lived.
@SAVarXX17 күн бұрын
im convinced they just pulled a cutscene out from the ending to make it ambiguous because as mentioned it does not make sense from a narrative or thematic standpoint for clive to die in the end.
@theequalizer6949 күн бұрын
He’s alive actually. I saw him in NYC a few days ago fighting a giant brown bear.
@_ras_763 күн бұрын
yeah I was there too
@Blizzard-kf3qm2 күн бұрын
I saw him in Japan fighting some guy in a cat mask.
@Brothandelus Жыл бұрын
I’d like to add that if anything mirrors Cid’s death, it’s JOSHUA’S death, which leans EVEN MORE towards Clive carrying on his name!
@fuzi53033 ай бұрын
I never thought of it like that! Love that parallel. It just feels a little better knowing that
@OracleGrouse8 ай бұрын
Also more details: 1. A mad man on Reddit calculated where Clive washed up using the moon's angle. And considering how that's a detail the devs put attention to in 14... Clive is right next to Northreach. Southern shore more precisely. 2. The narrator being the author is a plot device Maehiro has used before in XIV: Heavensward. Also according to Koji Fox in a recent interview, Maehiro was VERY insistent about the Final Fantasy line and my gut tells me it's not just about the easter egg. 3. YoshiP does have a history of calling out wrong interpretations when he's pestered about it ("bloody hell guys he's dead!"-about Endwalker) he didn't for Clive. 4. Recent DLC also reinforced the sea=death image. Bearers return their ash to the sea...and guess who's the only one who crawled out of it? And omg those saying him living is the "Disney ending". Bloody hell, I went through many quests with everyone talking about how the world will be shitty for quite a while and they may not see the fruits of their labor in their lifetime. How's that a Disney ending?
@renhardhalim3 ай бұрын
Bruh people that said this is disney ending definitely just a yapper. I did all the side quests and got all the evidence that i need to confirm that Clive still alive with a possibility of missing his left hand (id they disagree i'll fight them). Now i know why the devs said it's open ending. It's bcs you need to fkin do the side quests if you want to know the true ending, and i bet most of the people that play this game barely touch the side quests
@mizutofu2 ай бұрын
this video doesn't even mention in the epilogue, the 2 little kids try to reenact the play The Saint and the Sectary is more convincing evidence that Clive lived.
@ichibanohimesama29 күн бұрын
@@renhardhalim I can't fathom people who complete the game without the side quests. Like how can you feel invested with characters when you skip half their game dialogue??? People were complaining about them but I liked how they were all intrinsically tied to building the word whether it was developing character insights or giving a sense of how the world would continue past the credits (like all the hideaway innovations). The gameplay to it could have been better, but story wise they all added to it.
@LowIntSpecimen2 күн бұрын
"Disney ending" Joshua dead on the floor 15ft away:
@iCroniCall Жыл бұрын
Great video summing up everything. The dumbest thing I've heard people say is that if Clive is alive it invalidates his sacrifice and character arc, but I'm like, it's literally the opposite. The entire game everyone (Cid, Jill, Joshua) keeps telling Clive to NOT sacrifice himself, so him dying would invalidate all of those character moments and it wouldn't make sense from a writing standpoint. Also it wouldn't make sense for Joshua to sacrifice himself so that Clive can live, only for Clive to just die moments later. I feel like that makes Joshua's death less meaningful. Clive always talks about being Joshua's Shield and being the one that needs to save and protect him, but in the end it's Joshua that saves Clive so that he can live the life he always wanted with Jill. That's just objectively better writing. Clive being alive would not make it a "Disney" happy ending. Dion and Joshua still died. It's still a bittersweet emotional ending, but much more satisfying.
@kamageddynvideochannel3479 Жыл бұрын
I think the story might be written, kind of like one of those old tragites. The tragedy being that everyone keeps telling Clive to come back and not to get himself killed only for him to end up doing it anyway, and for everyone who loved him to survive, including Jousha who Clive though was dead and who's death helped push Clive too make the finale scafice. But Clive's death is also kind of necessary, so it's kind of bittersweet . I think it might have written as an intentional tragedy of coarse who knows for sure unless Square reveals something either through adding content to the game or Square coming out and saying what actually happened .
@ElanorNarmolanya11 ай бұрын
THIS^^^^ Perfectly put. They put so much care into the themes and through lines of the whole story, it objectively makes no sense for the ending to be counter to those themes. And like the video said, doing a DOUBLE fake-out of Joshua's death would feel very cheap. They set up Joshua to make the final sacrifice, they set up Dion to give his life to right his wrongs, they set up Cid to give Clive a new purpose and then pass on his legacy, they set up Clive to LIVE not for himself, but for all of the people who love him and have pleaded with him the ENTIRE GAME to save himself. I would accept him sacrificing himself if they set that up, but they didn't. They did the opposite. So I can't believe that they would intend for such an unsatisfying, counter-to-the-narrative ending.
@fuzi53033 ай бұрын
@@ElanorNarmolanyathey had set up Clive’s sacrifice though… even if I don’t think it happened and at the end of the game (after dion his parallel died that way it would make it redundant) but by telling us the whole game that Clive keeps trying to throw himself away for others or grief or guilt we can see that he holds little value on his own life and his own wants. He believes that throwing his life away is his purpose from being the first shield to wanting to go and take out “the second eikon of fire” without any plan and without being an eikon himself (as he currently thinks). And though he develops as a character we never see that fundamentally change in Clive it’s set up in his character that he WOULD do it and the other characters around him try to battle that notion of his, telling him he is important, telling him they love him, telling him not to throw his life away. Clive himself and the others around him battle for the entire game over his own self sacrificial nature and beliefs and either his sacrifice going through in the end or not both were set up by this throughout the game. It was a question of “Will he? Or won’t he?” and any way in which that was answered would have been set up and could have been narratively viable. One as a tragedy of a man unable to give himself the self worth he needed despite all the attempts to help him by those who love him in an immense tragedy and the other a bittersweet ending where in the end he is left broken and after losing his brother, his purpose for living and his power, leaving him without much of what he NEEDED to live for and only left with what he WANTS to live for (Jill). TLDR because it was a battle all game that Clive had that tendency he absolutely could’ve sacrificed himself and had it not be without setup. And either way that you take the ending that he did or didn’t are both genuinely good endings for completely different reasons. (Even if I think he survived)
@KevinKJohn Жыл бұрын
One other thing. The platinum trophy labels Clive "The Chronicler," just like the FF15 Platinum trophy labeled Noctis "The World Wanderer." Clive is The Chronicler because he wrote the book :)
@hartantoanggoro3 ай бұрын
But took Joshua's name as pseudonym?
@KevinKJohn3 ай бұрын
@@hartantoanggoro That's my thought. He already has record taking on someone else's name to carry on a legacy, so it's not out of character for him to honor his brother.
@Lunalonesome Жыл бұрын
Joshua states in game that the phoenix’s power can restore flesh, but it cannot bring someone back to life. Clive has had so many names and titles that of course he’d take on that pen name to do what old Harpo recommended. Clive is alive. This made me feel better. And Torgal was totally searching. You’re right on all accounts.
@921Ether10 ай бұрын
with ultima's 'raise' being a thing and all, i think that clive tried to cast it on joshua only to literally say 'perhaps ultima's magic was too great for this vessel all along' implying it didnt work. i like this interpretation because it would have made ultima's quest even more ironic than it already is. or it could also just mean that its just too much power and he cant contain it and has to use it.
@gravitycat6862 Жыл бұрын
👑 Here King, you dropped this. Clive living makes so much sense in terms of the theme and not too mention Clive tells Jill not to put her faith in the Metia star but have faith in him that he'll return.
@Sieghart.8 ай бұрын
When was this in game? I looked for this scene after seeing this comment and couldn't find it for the life of me, cause that would indeed be a major point if true
@__milkman_4 ай бұрын
@@Sieghart. its when they returned too eastpool i think? and they sleep in the shack or barn and jill tells clive how she prayed to metia
@eoghanryder Жыл бұрын
I think whenever an ending isn’t crystal clear about someone’s death, it usually means they aren’t
@TifaLckhart Жыл бұрын
“ Clive uses raise on his brother. “ -blows the place up 2 seconds later with Joshua laying there.
@stkkjj Жыл бұрын
Yeah I'm totally fine with clive being dead if this theory is just flat out wrong, even thiugh i think it has credibility. People who say that's he's dead yet Joshua isn't is even less likely and I find it hilarious.
@TifaLckhart Жыл бұрын
I am not englishing well, does this mean you think hes (joshua) alive or dead @@stkkjj
@TifaLckhart Жыл бұрын
nevermind sorry I just understood. yea lol. I agree. @@stkkjj
@MillennialRedFox8 ай бұрын
I think exactly the same. I'm convinced that the curse disappeared along with magic. Clive lost his left hand/arm, but he's still alive.
@dannypistilli48647 ай бұрын
I know people bash the side quests but there are a lot of subtle hints that Clive is the one who lives. The side quest where he gains Tomes quill pen and writing a story, which you mentioned as well but it made sense to me
@jonathand.40884 ай бұрын
It's such a shame that all the top tier side quests are at the end of the game where so many players will have given up on doing them all
@bruhshkebabs18 күн бұрын
@@jonathand.4088I was honestly not a fan of the side quests in the game. I just did them for the exp and skipped the cutscenes.
@Curiomerc5 күн бұрын
@@bruhshkebabs yikes
@kinko143 Жыл бұрын
I love it when Clive says "It's final fantasy time" then proceeds to finalize Ultima's fantasy.
@wr54889 ай бұрын
Wow… that’s the first time I’ve heard that meme literally be what happened
@orlandoalessandrini25053 ай бұрын
I finalized myself when that happened.
@Scorptice3 ай бұрын
Their story writing was too good to fumble so hard in the end. Clive lives but the narration made us talk about it months later, which is good writing
@eltigreduarte89775 ай бұрын
8:55 DUDE!!! THIS!!! I’ve been saying this since DAY ONE. Cid and Clive’s goals were different and Cid even made a point of that during his death scene. The fact that the description of the “Falling Star” trophy says “fulfill a legacy” and people didn’t stop to think “hmm which legacy? 🤔” is crazy to me
@Ethantaytay Жыл бұрын
DLC needs a Dion and Clive alive reveal bc i don’t care. i’m over all my faves dying at the end of games i love.
@neartlawt33208 ай бұрын
Playble dion.... We need to play as dion 1 he it so strong compare to banavers his boss fight was more phase then odin and need took clive and josha to beat him, also i do not belive the power was complately gone but transfer to other god that in good intention
@kjh44964 ай бұрын
You have no respect for art. The worst type of “fan” arrogant and entitled
@Ethantaytay4 ай бұрын
@@kjh4496 you have no respect for peoples opinions. the worst type of “commentor” arrogant and annoying.
@smash445566774 ай бұрын
@@EthantaytayI have no respect for anyone, fuck both of you have a nice day.
@Bird-of-Paradise-r1x4 ай бұрын
@@kjh4496they stated they loved the game, so clearly they respected it; no need to be combative.
@godfather694218 күн бұрын
To me, it would be so disappointing and honestly bad writing if “Clive actually died” was confirmed canon after everything that happened in the story. I hate when devs end games with a cliff hanger or open endings because we end up in a mess like this. Guess they don’t want to piss one side off and leave it to interpretation. Just pick something because at least players can get actual closure. If I had to choose, going by what was discussed about the side quests and the epilogue, I think Clive survived. Also the romance storyline between Jill and Clive throughout the story was a constant theme of them promising to be with each other until the end of time no matter what happens.
@Juansetheunknown Жыл бұрын
LOVE your theory absolutly Jill says to him that he try to save everyone but not himself... also I agree with Clive being alive people think that because his hand was becoming into stone that means Clive is dead and no, as you mention many other characters in the game you can see them alive even with almost their entired body becoming into stone... and yeah to me Joshua is dead dead.... and a really good way to explain why clive wrote the book is because wen he absorved an eikon we know now from what happened when he took Bahamut´s power, this action also gives to Clive memories of the people who where the dominant so Clive knows EVERYTHING including Ultima as he absorb him at the end
@ElanorNarmolanya Жыл бұрын
THANK YOU. The narrative reasons are IT for me!!! It makes it so unsatisfying for him to go and do the thing that everyone the whole game is telling him NOT to do. I get that it might have been inevitable, and I would have believed that maybe if we hadn't seen him washed up on shore, seemingly in perfectly fine condition aside from a stone hand. There was no clear reason for why that moment would be his death. I accepted it at first but after more thought I had to push back and I'm so glad I did! This is not copium, it's just logic and understanding of writing!
@solbaddude495Ай бұрын
There is one thing I would like to add that literally no one talks about. Clive when he gets powers from the others. Seems to get more than that. He also seems to at the very least gain a glimpse into that person’s memories. Something we see happen with both the ending of the Garuda and Bahamut battles.
@shodai2054Ай бұрын
Benedikta’s flashback tidbit is after the Eikon battle, before which Clive had already absorbed her power; not to mention the flashback isn’t even in Clive’s POV. It only explicitly happens with Dion, and even then Clive received no more information than Dion would have been able to tell them very easily. We learned nothing more of the Dominants this doesn’t happen with; meanwhile, the one time it does happen is in a circumstance where they could have learned more anyway. It feels like an excuse for the writers to segue from defeating Bahamut to showing the audience exactly what happened before Twinside fell to Bahamut. Due to both its hyper-circumstantial nature and seeming inconsistencies, I’m not sure how many grains of salt should be given to this feature’s prevalence or efficacy.
@Leonhart_93 Жыл бұрын
Yes, there are many hints, even more than those you mentioned. If they bothered to leave the ending open then it makes no sense for me to believe that he is dead, since I really want Jill to get her happy ending.
@evillain19xx12 күн бұрын
The Hideaway symbol in the book says it all, as it belongs to Cid (also to Clive since he became Cid too). No way Joshua's gonna use that symbol.
@JakeRyanBooth10 ай бұрын
Clive living wouldn’t have been a happy ending either. His victory did not come without loss. But at the very least him being by Jill’s side in the end would’ve been a better bittersweet ending. Joshua dying was painful.
@DarthPingu07 Жыл бұрын
This is it. This is the video. You've pretty much mentioned everything I've thought of after a month of decifering every little detail. Though I think the whole "sensing eikon" thing was new to the post-Bahamut fight when Ultima cast Primogenesis. See, when that was cast, aether pooled from the ground and floods started springing up. I think Dominants became highly attuned to sensing aether as a side effect. Thus, they couldn't sense Joshua at Phoenix gate ruins, Kupka at Rosalith Castle but they could sense Jill and Barnabas.
@shodai2054 Жыл бұрын
Interesting idea, but Benedikta senses Cid at the start of the Caer Norvent mission.
@son1cc56719 күн бұрын
The whole scene with Jill could be interpreted completely differently. Like crying for relief that it all turned out. And it's Final Fantasy if they wanted to kill off a character, Clive would have shattered into dust and the devs would have shown it in 4K to your face, that's for sure. As with Joshua, they showed him giving up his last breath very clearly. Well and written book with Clive as narrator is the fattest evidence that's Clive is alive and wrote the story.
@alexprosto119911 күн бұрын
Только прошол игру. Надеюсь ты и автор видео правы и Клайв жив
@hobopizzaguy7400 Жыл бұрын
Great video, with some well-placed humor in between. I'd like to add that some recently translated quotes from the main writer (from the Ultimania book maybe idk) basically play into some fan theories. He explained some stuff about Jills strong reaction, Metia and Clive. Basically Jill assumed Clive had no intention of coming back when he said "I promise" cause apparently she thought he's a bad liar since the Byron introduction scene. That's why she put her last hope into Metia and when it also faded she thought that PERHAPS her wish wont come true. So she only lost hope, assumed his death, she didnt feel or know it 100%. Makes Torgals more composed reaction more understandable. And one final thing; Clive not only ended magic bearers etc in that moment, but also petrification. I dont know if all quotes come from Maehiro himself, but all are legit. Im not sure if the petrification quote comes directly from the book or from a separate Maehiro interview though. I feel like they are slowly warming up to fully explaining the ending. One of the DLCs may be the reason for that.
@ELYSIUM1997Ай бұрын
I’m convinced Clive is alive now
@JiiWoon22 күн бұрын
when i first heard "My Star" in the ending and Jill showed up i was in tears , my god
@00MangoPapaya Жыл бұрын
This is brilliant! I agree that the integrity of the narrative/writing is compromised with Clive “sacrificing” himself when his evolution as a character involved overcoming suicidal/martyrdom ideation with the help of the people who loved him. I say that respectfully as the ending is open ended until confirmed 100% otherwise. Also as others have commented, the reference to Saint and Secretary in the epilogue as well as Jill commenting of Clive’s many books as a boy and him responding that he loved reading epic tales documenting man vs the gods may also be hints as to who really wrote that book in the end.
@PointlessPeachesII7 ай бұрын
You spoke to my soul on this one. It simply doesn't make sense for him to die.
@Warhammer_lover5 ай бұрын
7:34 bruh, Torgal literally led Clive to a nostalgia trip to his old tree house and all across the game we see that Torgal understands human speech. He's absolutely capable, I'm sure if this bastard could speak, he would.
@chuchuleptitrain4 ай бұрын
it's not even a theory that Clive lives as Joshua. Everything and all the side quests point to him taking the pen and having no attachment to his own name (He was Cid). There's no doubt
@starsimvidz3 ай бұрын
it is indeed a theory since its not confirmed... but the way I see it is this. There are a number of scenarios that are possible since the ending is ambiguous and open for interpretation.. But the theory that Clive lives to write the book is by far the one with the most solid foundation, its not really even close.
@Curiomerc5 күн бұрын
It's essentially just a proper way of doing an open ending. As an alternative to having multiple they've instead given you the option to do all the side quests not only playing into the whole strength of bonds thing but also providing the context for what's ahead. Those who believe he lives cares for storytelling and carry an understanding that things aren't just put in the game by coincidence. I doubt most of the people who think he's dead cared enough for the story or lore to read into it, much less do the side content that provides it. If you do all the content it feels wrong for him to die because it makes little narrative sense in a game with very good writing. How much evidence we have of him being alive is often talked about but what we don't talk enough about is how little evidence there is of him being dead. Some people just hear the dude say "even if it kills me" and write it off immediately without further thought.
@kingleonidas21825 ай бұрын
Honestly the sunrise thing is all I really need to believe that he’s alive
@starsimvidz3 ай бұрын
I have always loved tragic endings to stories. But I still fully believe that if you were to list all the possible scenarios and the hints/evidence, Clive living to write the book at the end has by far the most backing within the story & the themes.
@polinasullivan8645 Жыл бұрын
Excellent video! I just want to add that as we know, phoenix flame can heal but not revive (Joshua said that he was too late when he found Cid dead. If he wasn't too late, he could heal him). So the only thing Clive could do was to heal Joshua's body from this ulcer but not make him alive again. And therefore I strongly believe that Clive is alive (probably the curse stopped when the last piece of magic disappeared and as you say he can not die from something that does not exist anymore) and will just return with one hand. A great idea btw to add more different combat prosthesis in DLC xD
@viralshark4 ай бұрын
I'm also pretty certain we see Clive with a quill in hand (specifically, his right hand) at one point in the game. His left hand turned to stone, leaving him totally able to write the book.
@joethealternativegamer39358 ай бұрын
I recently beat the game myself and I was looking at some videos on it! I thought some things were up! Def alive! End of your video is hilarious too! You deserve more subs!
@celfhelp Жыл бұрын
one pretty important thing you missed: in the post-credits scene, the little boys mention “The Saint and the Sectary”, and given that everything else they talk about is pulled from the ‘Final Fantasy’ book, that probably is too the only two people who would include that in the book are Clive and Uncle Byron, so if Clive didn’t write the book under Joshua’s name, then Uncle Byron did and that’s the single most bizarre twist in all of gaming. lmao given CBU3’s continued cohesion and consistency in writing FFXIV, i think it’s pretty safe to say they didn’t just “haha whoops!” at the end of FFXVI; anyone who thinks clive died probably just didn’t do the sidequests that drop on you at the very end of the game that or they just don’t pay any attention to the media they consume (also, great video 👏)
@netherlim Жыл бұрын
Lmao stop coping. He's dead, and even if he's not, there isn't solid evidence of this. You're talking about the last secondary mission and it's crazy that you missed the f point of it. He literally trained EVERYBODY to prepare for a world where he WON'T BE HERE. Dude that is so hilarious that you are missing it. Man, this is so harsh to don't pay any attention to the media you're consuming, isn't it ?
@Leonhart_93 Жыл бұрын
@@netherlim Nah, if they bothered to leaved the ending open instead of making him clearly dead that tells me he is anything but. They even said it in an interview that it's open ended on purpose.
@penrilfake Жыл бұрын
To be completely fair, most of the more cohesive content in FFXIV has been written by Ishikawa, rather than the people who wrote FF16. There's a *lot* of writing pitfalls in this game, so I don't think using "it's what makes sense in writing" as *evidence* for this interpretation of the ending is truly fair. The game sort of... forgets what it's about a handful of times, so... I don't disagree with the interpretation that he's alive, btw, but I also don't *agree* with it.
@netherlim Жыл бұрын
yes, it's open to interpretation. Both are valid, so him saying "if you think he's dead you're not paying attention" is just stupid.@@Leonhart_93
@Leonhart_93 Жыл бұрын
@@netherlim And so we have made our interpretation. After that the truth becomes only one and everything else a falsehood ready to be debunked. One individual's stance cannot be "I don't want to know", that's a dumb way to live.
@Breton-m6b13 күн бұрын
I just wanted to see clive and jill be happy in the ending, what would've been so bad about that? But also the whole story is kind of a mess. Clive spends 13 years trying to track down his brother's killer, only to realize that it was he who killed his brother, and his brother isn't dead.
@MrFeelingperky2 күн бұрын
A year late to this as I just finished the game. It looks like in the scene where his hand turns to stone and falls to the ground that he blinks before it cuts to blank, rather than close his eyes in a "final moment" kind of way.
@AlexTekle8 ай бұрын
at first i was a believer of joshua surviving, i do like the thematic significance of clive naming him the author, thus immortalizing him forevermore
@MixedSuupuu6 ай бұрын
Thank you so much for this video. after finishing ff 16, it was very difficult to watch Dion die and then Joshua. I couldn't get over Clive's death. And Ultima has become the villain I hate most. Now watching this video gives me hope.
@EAchank Жыл бұрын
Great video friend he's definitely alive
@mwalvis43 Жыл бұрын
That ending tells me there should be more or possibilities could happen, but yeah, the book got me thinking even more but even the voice actors of the game have said that the ending was made that way for anyone’s interpretation and I believe that there’s a possibility of Moore to add I’m hoping
@JarinXeno5 күн бұрын
I honestly hate these ambiguous endings. I do agree that Clive is probably still alive but it's still a shit ending. After how long this game is I care way more about know what happens between him and Jill after everything than I do about knowing that he saved the world. The world can kiss my ass, I want to know what happened to the characters.
@icospawn3 ай бұрын
well if you played it most who died from that had all of their body white and turned to dust. he just had his hand paralyzed.
@shreedin Жыл бұрын
THANK YOU. Thank you. I needed this video
@jerm5466 Жыл бұрын
I came in to this thinking this idea was BS, now I’m pretty convinced your right. Well done, lots of great points here. What an awesome game.
@DarthPingu07 Жыл бұрын
How hard could it have been to have Clive roll up on the boat like a chad, Jill runs into his arms crying her eyes out, crowd goes wild, roll credits. This ending is as bad a "everyone's dead" ending because it doesn't bring concrete closure. If ANYBODY in the franchise needed a happy ending it was Jill and Clive. They had their trauma at the start of the game. They beat their trauma and everything else that came at them. They bonded and they grew and eventually their slow burn romance took hold. Say Clive is dead, what does that mean for Jill? He was her world since the Nisa Defile and it was obvious back then. She has literally nothing to live for, certainly no joy, and if Clive has gone then she has nobody left, not even Shiva. I honestly think she'd join him and end herself. She's strong but she's also human. I do think she's pregnant though. Theres little things like Clive saying he should scout for bandits... At a snow daisy field? Coupled with him asking his most travelled companion if she wants to... travel? Then she remarks about them getting back before everybody wonders where they've gone when they've left for weeks at a time before. Then there's her side quest which is hidden so most people would stumble across it after they've done the hunts and other side quests, at which point she rejoins your party, just to travel basically. She moves to Clives balcony which is arguably the most central part of the hideaway which offers a view out to the docks for when he returns. Lastly she may have bore a son who they named Joshua in honour of his uncle who, with his parents guidance, chronicled their journey and thus he authored FINAL FANTASY. Clive and Jill retired to the continent like he promised her, they settled down, had a family. A fitting end to arguably the best couple in the series and an end they deserved.
@Leonhart_93 Жыл бұрын
Exactly, I am tired of lazy endings. I get the distinct feeling that they kill the protags or leave them open just so that they won't have to bother showing their life afterwards. But what you get like that is a bunch of sacrificial martyrs that had no idea how and what to live for. That's quite bad.
@nabradia Жыл бұрын
I really think you are missing the point of Jill's character. She had an entire arc and she's a character of her own. Clive was not her only reason to be alive. She was kept captive for 13 years under the Iron Kingdom and she did not survive just because of Clive. She also had dreams and goals for Valisthea. A woman can exist without a man, just saying.
@Leonhart_93 Жыл бұрын
@@nabradia That doesn't mean she will be happy like that, she said distinctly that Clive was a part of her, the half that makes her whole. There is nothing nice for me when I imagine her living alone.
@nabradia Жыл бұрын
@@Leonhart_93 They are in their 30s. Trust me, people learn to move on and build other meaningful bonds. It's super shallow to believe we'll only love one person for the rest of our lives.
@Leonhart_93 Жыл бұрын
@@nabradia Trust you? Did you even pay attention to her? She loved him for over 18 years, even since they were children and that didn't change even for the 13 years when she thought he was dead. What part of her made you think "oh, she will come to love someone else". No, she won't, her loyalty is superlative. Looking at her through the lens of modern women is stupid. If anything, she will live her life honoring everything he stood for, like keep fighting for their cause.
@shaannair95426 ай бұрын
So I just beat the game and I too needed this. Quick question though if the lesson he was supposed to learn was don’t be a martyr and live for yourself, then why does he say at the end he will use the final bit of magic to end all magic even if it is at his expense? Great video though!
@shodai20546 ай бұрын
Mixed feelings on it. It’s common for people to have some regressions after deep tragedy befalls them, and losing Joshua of course fits the bill. He’s desperate and expressing how far he’ll go to make things right. In this light, I can accept the line. On the other hand, it seems like it’s really only there to build tension in the moment and make viewers worry if he’ll actually make it out of this. Basic writing tactic, aims to facilitate the official “openness” of the ending. I think it’s only fair that the narrative would award Clive with a continued life, both for his strong resolve to fix the world, and for his newfound willingness to hear out the wishes of those who care for him to try and make it back to them. The latter in particular is a big character moment for him (comes to a head at Shadow Coast). It’s not like this single moment at the ending would uproot all his thematic progress and circumvent any good that would come to him as a result of said progress. That was a good question, adding this point to the pinned comment. Thanks for watching!
@A0i.N0.K3n27 күн бұрын
@2:09 Clive Bested
@Itzfreddo12 күн бұрын
LMAOOOO LMAOOOO
@Phxric3 ай бұрын
I just finished the game and after bawling my eyes out. I looked to find closure, this video gave me that and some laughs. Thank u bro. Subbed 😂
@alexprosto119911 күн бұрын
Как я тебя понимаю. Не люблю такие концовки, так как от них очень грустно. Клайв жив, второго варианта не предусмотрено, а то я умру от печали 😅
@JakeRyanBooth10 ай бұрын
We’ve still got an entire other DLC expansion coming too. I wonder when it will take place in the game. Will it be a post ending DLC or pre ending?
@kayochao7 ай бұрын
I DONT SEE THE FUCKING BOAT EITHER THANK YOU LMAOO
@jessievidal9525 ай бұрын
Simple and clean is the waaaaay that you’re making me feeeeel tonight!
@fade25359 күн бұрын
if i had a nickle for every time a final fantasy protagonist denied fate id have 3 nickles, which isnt alot but its weird that it happened 3 times
@DarkHand999 Жыл бұрын
I would add that the quote he uses in the narration in the very beginning belongs to a book that joshua had and then gave to harpocrates, so when did he stop to read
@Not.Giuseppe6 ай бұрын
Dion didn't die from fall damage, he died of his wounds as he was falling, major difference that the fan boys forget to consider.
@elisodrakulia Жыл бұрын
I know the ending is very open to interpretation, but I really like your theory!! (although I really wish all of them are alive... Gotdam ending made me cry and depressed for weeks)
@merbearlorelei8 ай бұрын
One more to confirm that Joshua died; It's a solid storytelling trope that if a character coughs even once, it means they're sick and going to die lol
@toddolsen46044 ай бұрын
He lived. No one can narrate if they are dead. The way the game is told, it has a lot of "meanwhile this is happening over there moments" away from the main party. And these dry up once Joshua joins Clive. Which means Joshua witnessed most of it 1st hand and wrote it all down chronicalling the history unfolding. After which Clive amended the these writings to add in what he saw and experienced. He would have done this sometime after returning. The hand thing is easily ignored. It was his left hand. The spell casting hand, which he used for his whole life...as a fighter and mage. It logically should get petrified.
@justbubbly97853 ай бұрын
Why does thinking Torgal is calling him home make me even more sad at that scene :,)???
@ulezisabanilla66646 ай бұрын
Man cured our depression.
@__milkman_4 ай бұрын
idk if im just making a huge stretch but when your able to change the appreance of clives to the something black (or ash, smoke i dont quite remember) but the only parts of clive that seemed to be different than the rest are his left arm and legs which the arms tie to the cutscene when we see the curse start to take over his arm but idk maybe that ties to the whole hes still alive but again im not sure
@HappyDianemartin Жыл бұрын
Great content. Thank you. I totally agree with you. The ending is not just ambiguous, it is clever. The more you dig into the game the more you come to the conclusion that he lives on. It is not a story for “lazy” gamers :D The script from this game is pure gold. PS: there is an interesting book at hideout talking about a rosarian knight going to war and leaving his pregnant lady behind. It alludes that those who are touched by the fenix won´t die and that she should wipe her tears because although her fiance left his light lives on at her womb. The whole verses looks quite suspicious but I don´t think Jill is pregnant after the beach scene. A baby makes total sense as a proxy for a new world but that is why they included the other lady for it... But as everything about the ending... who knows?!
@DarthPingu07 Жыл бұрын
Jill being pregnant makes perfect sense. It ties in with her leaving the party and when she rejoins it. The fact her quest is hidden so most people will find it after they've finished the hunts etc. Also, they "became one" on the beach. Could imply general sex or, she's actually pregnant but they knew their time was drawing near, if there was a chance he could die in the last battle, who's to say she wanted a part of him to live on no matter what? Jill is a hopeless romantic and was deeply in love with him before even Rosalith. I'm almost certain she was carrying when he went to Origin.
@HappyDianemartin Жыл бұрын
@@DarthPingu07 My understanding on her leaving the party was that since she no longer "had" Shiva she would have been in greater danger and Clive knew that. We also cannot tell how many weeks have passed since the love scene... But yes, I also think it is a beautiful possibility in such a lovely story and I would definitely want it to happen! They both deserve it.
@DarthPingu07 Жыл бұрын
@@HappyDianemartin the only thing Jill can't do is fully prime. She still has all her powers as shown when she gets off the ship in Stonhyrr and freezes the floor for Dion to blast. She also still uses all her moves in battle. We've never seen anybody semiprime after Clive used his gift so I don't know about that though. We don't know how many weeks has passed but we know Mids ship takes 3-4 days (I think) to get from Ash to Kanver so if you add up all the trips Clive has to make for side quests, then account for downtime he has to rest between missions etc it could be well over a month before he goes to origin. He has a lot of side quests and travelling all over the twins and back in the last stretch.
@TheCrandellous3333 күн бұрын
Clive is dead. The book has his sword emblem, cids tombstone crest, and Joshua's name. All people who are dead. Clive was turning to stone AFTER eliminating magic. His body was decomposing. Even he says his body can't handle ultima. Jill, torgal, and gav break down crying. Obviously to let you know he was dead. The book was finished by cyrill and tomes. They credited Joshua as the author posthumously. We don't even know the book included the ultima battle. Just eikons and magic
@josephdowney2715 Жыл бұрын
Thank you. Yoshi P and his writing team are too good to go against how they set up Clive's character and story.
@xZFeroxZx29 күн бұрын
I finished the game yesterday, deadass convinced he died. I came here thinking this is coping BS. If it is then I'm coping the BS with you because fucking hell this convinced me entirely.
@hkoizumi31345 ай бұрын
Bingo, narrator is the only evidence you need. Yoshi P does the same exact thing in FF14. In Heavensward, it was narrated by the eye witness of Edmont de Fortemps. In stormblood, it was Lyse Hex. Shadowbringer was Graha (in the source). Then Endwalker was Emet. The story of your character in FF14 are based on eye witness account. A chronicles of your feats. Which is being past down by various authors.
@おれんじゅーす-d4c3 ай бұрын
I came here to say this. How is it even an argument that he isn't alive. Clive is the narrator, setting the story with the first line of the game, and ending it with the last line of the game. Any other evidence does not matter. Writers don't just write this stuff in for no reason.
@janelbbuck9 ай бұрын
Tbh I really didn’t like the end. It’s probably cause I read and watched so much media with the similar open ended bull, media like that was my childhood. And I always hated it cause it felt like a cop out. “Oh the fans can think of their own possible ending” NO if I wanted to do that I’d write fan fiction. Give me the canon and all of it, I am too greedy for open ends. But after having such a blast with the entire story for it to end like that, made me immediately never want to replay. 💀
@Bloodhurl675 ай бұрын
That's a pretty childish opinion. Dislike open endings that's fine but open ended endings aren't fan fiction level stuff and are good for making movies, tv shows, games, etc. open for discussion and have them last longer to the viewer or player. That is if it is done well and games like Dark Souls, Bloodborne, Sekiro, Elden Ring, do a fantastic job of that.
@Ppppooiiuuyytrree3 ай бұрын
@@Bloodhurl67its like writing a book and telling someone else to finish it
@lionheart44244 ай бұрын
Love it. Even if this is copium, it's the best there is. I think they left the ending "open" in case square decided to not make sequels due to "not meeting sales expectations".
@residentevil2928Ай бұрын
I'm more for the Clive is dead view of things. But clearly either he or Joshua are alive. Additionally what did Clive fix? I'm kind of tired of open ended endings.
@shodai2054Ай бұрын
Just before Dion tells them he will join them in going to Origin, Clive and Joshua discuss how progress to the future they and Elwin have fought for thus far will probably not bear much fruit until long after their time. This was before anyone had considered removing magic from the equation altogether, because that would have been sheer wishful thinking at that point. The biggest problem in trying to advocate for Bearers’ equality was the fact that there was a literal difference that could be pointed to as evidence that they are monsters: magical affinity. Clive straight up erased that in the end. The threat Bearers supposedly posed to the general public just didn’t exist anymore, which had to have fast-forwarded progress by multiple decades at least. And it’s my opinion that it is only right for the narrative to reward Clive for finally abandoning his martyrdom in the name of of those close to him, with being able to witness and enjoy the fruits of his labor for progress alongside those close to him. I’m tired of open endings too.
@MrForeverOnline Жыл бұрын
These were my original thoughts, but the hard-core fans that want Joshua to be alive and Clive dead almost convinced me to believe in their fantasy. Thank you for your video of reminding me that I'm not crazy.
@torchlit80863 ай бұрын
W video, your commentating is funny af
@nabradia Жыл бұрын
Although I can agree with a lot of points you raised, some are bluntly literal interpretations. I'm not going to counter argument everything because I believe you have an overall valid point, but honestly the "one minute from crying to smiling" got to me. She starts crying when the moon is up and it could have been at least hours before the sun rises, not a mere minute. Second because Jill is just as stoic as Clive was, in her own way. This is a girl that was taken as a warden and managed to make a home out of her 'captivity', who managed to swallow the hard pill it was serving the Iron Kingdom and who betrayed her own beliefs for a good portion of the early game to ensure her closest ones were kept safe. She is not one to cry her heart out even when things get out of hand. The mere fact that she is shown crying gives the entire sequence gravity enough, and her "stopping all too fast" is a sign of respect for Clive more than anything. About the book title "final fantasy", Ultima can mean Final, and Mythos can mean Fantasy, not that hard to believe the story of how both killed each other was named that way... It could just as much be that both of them died and who carried out the writing was none other than Joshua's personal escorts, since not only do they have the ultimate task of compiling memories and keeping records of everything that happens to the Phoenix, but they are shown collecting ancient, hard-to-retrieve data. Nothing guarantees that the entire sequence of what happened in Origin was described in detail on that book so why assume that it was written in the first place? We only see the kids playing and referring to details that were common knowledge. Last, but not least, I think that Pen and Quill quest is such a shallow reason. Dion is also given a quest, with none other than TOMES AS WELL where he is offered a flower and he denies it for that time being, claiming he would come back at a later time, when he was worthy of carrying it. He did not come back to that flower. So similarly, Clive may have not come back for the pen and quill.
@bunn228 Жыл бұрын
Yes I also thought the Undying would have been the one's to follow up with the book. At minimum I would expect Jote to have, assuming Joshua had left some records of their travels.
@nabradia Жыл бұрын
@@bunn228 precisely. Especially because they were always working from the shadows, it would make sense that they were the ones to write it and pen it as Joshua.
@shodai2054 Жыл бұрын
I don’t deny that some are only interpretations. Given that I believe Clive living makes the most sense from a writing perspective, I try to reason with less clear-cut aspects of the ending that would support and work with his survival being the case. I even open with disclaimers for some, such as Torgal’s howling, presenting both sides but then arguing why one interpretation works better to me. Not necessarily proving the other wrong, just showing how _I think_ one is vastly better than the other. After the cut from the infirmary when Jill starts running, we see her running outside to the edge of the mess. She could not have taken hours on her trip from the infirmary to the mess. I actually didn’t know that about Mythos. But I personally prefer the title to be made out of Clive’s statement representing “the end of Ultima’s hold over us, the culmination of our will” rather than just “Clive and Ultima”. More interpretations lol The quill and Harpocrates’ request are not the reason alone. It is the in-world reason that enables Clive to do it, and everything else I mention works together to really make it seem possible. Also, Dion does not have an arc about taking care of and saving himself. In fact, it’s kind of the opposite. He mentions himself that he doesn’t have much to come back to, but even if he were able to for Terrence and Harpocrates, I wonder if the regrets he has for the past would ever stop tormenting him. He seems very at peace with not coming back, and, based on his final dialogue, he is happy that he could be instrumental to stopping Ultima because of avenging his father, not because he saw that this would personally redeem himself and enable him to move forward free of his own remorse.
@nabradia Жыл бұрын
@@shodai2054 It's just that adding a lot of circumstancial/preferencial choices does not necessarily build a solid case, s'all.
@mwalvis43 Жыл бұрын
But remember they had those people that were trying to keep certain evidence a secret, so why wouldn’t they assume that it was a fantasy lol and is it possible that she was pregnant with his child too?
@ryangriffith55516 ай бұрын
I didn’t think I’d ever watch a video from “poundtown central” but here we are
@shodai20546 ай бұрын
I predate Sexyy Red that gross mf ruined me goddamnit
@ryangriffith55516 ай бұрын
@@shodai2054 ?
@jeggzzzz4 ай бұрын
I called a similar thing in XV and they touched it in the cancelled DLC scripts. So hopefully there's some sort of confirmation for XVI. I know the XVI DLC is before the ending, I still want to agree with this analyses. 👍
@0Kaylien07 ай бұрын
I agree with almost all of this. The only thing that I think is also possible is like a second coming for Joshua. In my head it's possible that his soul/consciousness transferred to Clive when he passed the Phoenix. Joshua's name is derived from Yeshua (Jesus's basically) and there are so many similarities in religion (undying as apostles, resurrection, sacrifice at a young age, but also: a second coming). And before that his spirit returning in the guise of FLAMES. And that sort of gives me the impression that it's possible that Joshua is still alive, his vessel healed and his consciousness perhaps clinging to Clive's (until his body washes up somewhere if not incinerated). Because wouldn't Clive's terms be for his brother to be alive SOMEHOW. And that for me leaves Joshua's death open too. And one could call it far fetched but they're also talking about leaving vessels and returning to them. Even going into hibernation without one. If there was one dominant who could... And in that case they could have written that book together. Joshua was the chronicler of them, even if Harpocrates wanted Clive to pick up the quill. And the Phoenix feather was always a sign to Clive, a symbol of Joshua being alive. The fact that it's there at the end didn't seem random, or a sudden change of meaning of a symbol so significant. But that too could be open for interpretation, but changing the meaning like that is not the best writing imo. It's in essence the twitch or intake of breath people wanted to see. While that vessel is clearly without life. I mean, like you said at the end: everything is still possible depending on the angle. 😆 Except for maybe saying it's clear cut. Also: Dion please be alive too. Even if that's the one character whose death makes sense from a narratological POV. No fall damage ftw.
@erxperience5 ай бұрын
We need FF16-2. Nothing more, nothing less.
@kamageddynvideochannel3479 Жыл бұрын
It is possible that both Clive and Josuha lived as well.
@fernandoerhardt4 ай бұрын
Very much agree with your arguments. The point is, for me at least, the necessity of this whole argumentation to make some semblance of sense of the ending, is the proof tha the ending is a badly written mess. "Open ended" on a story like this feels just cheap an unispired. I loved this game (the story at least, not so much the mechanics), but that ending made me ignore the DLCs.
@yfw1239 ай бұрын
Kind of frustrating that developer still refuse to add content to the ending or define it and opted to write up open end in such a confusing way. I hate it for over a decade ago, Tales of the Abyss ended up in a similar way, not disclosing whether the returning character is Luke or Asche and here we get FF16 ending undefined. Hope the developers won't do that again in upcoming JRPG games.
@NeverB_Gameover3 ай бұрын
FF16-2
@Tom-Pendragon Жыл бұрын
everyone is alive. Dion is alive, joshua is alive and clive is alive.
@SamBerbatov201010 ай бұрын
Im hoping the open ending was done on purpose to gauge the reaction into how much people cared. Now they’re making the 2nd DLC, my hope is it changes the ending to something I like :) (if you like the ending, straight up go F yourselves 😅)
@slugshotgun25 күн бұрын
who knows, that joshua rosfield could be clive & jill's son
@sithlordbeerus50311 ай бұрын
When the next dlc lol I need it bad
@formanga88717 ай бұрын
Bro Clive literally say Joshua is still there at start of the battle.
@DeepbloodFang4 ай бұрын
Wow, someone with common effing sense on this matter, what are the chances!!?
@SandraHertel-u3b11 ай бұрын
I agree with your points. I’m sticking with it,
@buggydclown8460 Жыл бұрын
Holy shit. I literally just got into an argument the ending and listed all these points. Then watched your video only to reaffirm that he’s alive.
@kosovossalbaniasskosovossa7845 Жыл бұрын
I hoping with you, because she this in the future he still alive in next game I don’t know 🤷♂️
@mi.schreibt Жыл бұрын
exactly my thoughts =) I also think the decision not to show a happy reunion of Clive and Jill at the end is a good thing. It would reduce the story to just the two of them and take the focus away from the change the ending brings to the world as a whole.
@Leonhart_93 Жыл бұрын
Except that I didn't care much about the world as a whole, compared to the two of them. Or maybe they did a poor job at making me care. And saving the world is the most basic of premises, everyone knew it was going to happen since the start, not a highlight or surprise.
@shodai2054 Жыл бұрын
@@Leonhart_93 Honestly, yeah. What really drew me in for this game’s story was the characters. I was invested in seeing what happened to them, what decisions they made, how they could blossom thematically, what they really stand for as characters, how their relationships develop, etc. The abstract, scaleless goal of “saving the world” is vastly uninteresting in comparison. I care about the rest of their personal goals much more.
@mi.schreibt Жыл бұрын
@@shodai2054 I understand that completely. I, too, am attached to the characters and their fates in a story. But that doesn't change the fact that it depends on what kind of story is to be told. And Clive's goal was the better world. If he ends up writing a story about what happened, he would write a story about saving the world - not about his personal gains and losses. And from this perspective I can understand the decision not to show a personal happy ending =) I would have liked to see it too - no question. But not seeing it doesn't ruin the story for me aftewards. Because that this end exists, shows the story. That it is not to be seen, is simply part of Clive's narrative perspective and part of his character. That's what I mean.
@Leonhart_93 Жыл бұрын
@@mi.schreibt It's not just about Clive we are talking here. Honestly if it wasn't for Jill being left behind to live an aimless life without him, then I wouldn't care much about Clive himself. He did what he wanted.
@Leonhart_93 Жыл бұрын
@@shodai2054 Yeah, saving the world is too abstract of a concept to get me interested. At this point I am kind of tired of the narrative of martyr heroes that don't want to fight for themselves and to fight in order to live together with their loved ones. Fighting with no regard for their own life is so damn common but so very boring at this point.
@Scorchlette8 ай бұрын
Something I'd like to point out. The Pheonix *cannot* revive the dead. There is NO chance of Joshua coming back to life from whatever Clive did.
@AnaCarolinaCosta Жыл бұрын
there's a lot of cope here, but i believe it all bc he can't be fucking dead ):
@dabomm3 ай бұрын
What a goat
@kamageddynvideochannel3479 Жыл бұрын
A lot of what you're saying makes sense, but one thing bugs about the Clive wrote the book theory, and that is it isn't in character for him too Wright mostly about himself. Maybe it's possible that both Clive and Joshua live
@stkkjj Жыл бұрын
It's hard to say what clive would do if he survived because he's really just the apex of a soldier. There is literal evidence though in a side quest that he would consider using a pen instead of a sword and becoming a "moss the chronicler" of the events of the story. So the fact that the platinum trophy and the post credit scene supports it just makes that idea stronger. I think it's the strongest evidence of him surviving.
@kamageddynvideochannel3479 Жыл бұрын
@stkkjj Hypocrites also tells Clive what a great historian he thinks Jousha is, and Joshua also mentions Jote was keeping records of their travels.
@OracleGrouse8 ай бұрын
@@kamageddynvideochannel3479 Meaning that Joshua's story was already put on paper, but Clive's wasn't. So if you're correct, it'd mean Joshua wrote a book with what he assumed to be his brother's story. If the other way around, Clive writes down his story after it all ended and added Joshua's notes. A cheeky way to explain why you sometimes play as Joshua/Phoenix.
@Coolio_Ash18 күн бұрын
Looks like most of the arguments from a writing perspective but hey thats fine.
@nicolomontefiori8082 Жыл бұрын
I understand your pov on this theory and, after watching the video, I truly respect it, some of this are valid points (like the title of the Book at the end). What I don't understand is the reason why the ending would become shallow if Cllive truly died. Sure the story and its characters tell over and over again to Clive that he doesn't have to become a martyr and, before the ending, he embraces this idea. But we all agree that he had to destroy Origin and rid the world of magick. So he had to do it and he was the only one who could do it and maybe this act of God was too much even for his perfect body, resulting in him dying. It's sad but also realistic, it doesn't go against the themes, this would be an ending that says "Yes, he deserves a happy ending, he deserves to live and die on his terms, he earned this chance....but sometimes the world is cruel and unjust and for reasons beyond his control this chance is taken away from him"
@Leonhart_93 Жыл бұрын
Because him dying it's an extremely common and actually boring ending these days. Yet another martyr hero that doesn't know what to live for an so he dies to save a world that largely rejected him and what he stood for. Don't sound exciting at all.
@nicolomontefiori8082 Жыл бұрын
@@Leonhart_93 except for the fact that It isn't like this. He knows exactly what to live for (One good reason Is Jill) and the world rejected him only in the beginning of the game, toward the end he became one of the most famous and most beloved people on the world. Hell, if he survived Origin he would have become a figure akin to the leader of Valisthea. The world Is saved but the Hero dies, the premise Is boring sure, but how it's delivered Is what truly sells the deal. Also, we have to remember, not all endings have to be something that fulfill all our needs, the author doesn't owe us the ending we want, actually he doesn't owe us anything
@Leonhart_93 Жыл бұрын
@@nicolomontefiori8082 He owes us to make the ending good, or even the best ending one could possibly write. Why would I be happy with just an acceptable or mediocre ending when it can be great instead?
@nicolomontefiori8082 Жыл бұрын
@@Leonhart_93 we all want a great ending (which this game does have), but an author doesn't owe us nothing since nobody forced us ti buy his game. It's like complaining about the lack of trailers of an upcoming game when, in reality, the Company doesn't owe us any trailer
@Leonhart_93 Жыл бұрын
@@nicolomontefiori8082 That's a stupid argument to make. He owes us a great story, that's what we all pay see. This is not some obscure work that some two cent artist wrote in their free time and we happened upon it. Besides, they already said in an interview that they left the ending open on purpose. But why, they had no problem killing protagonists in the past. That along with the slew of hints scattered in the story should raise questions.