The Club Fitting SECRET Ben Hogan And Lee Trevino Used For Legendary Ball Striking

[@MiloLinesGolf]

What lie angle do you play in your irons?? 🔑🌪 Make a Rotational swing just like HOGAN and TREVINO with Milo's 5 KEYS: milolinesgolf.com/5-keys-to-unlocking-a-rotational-golf-swing/

[@alancolbert5841]

2° flat

[@TheOtherKine]

2 up. I can't bend over LOL

[@TeddyCavachon]

The backstory on Hogan was he grew up caddying on West Texas hardpan with a guy named Byron (Nelson) and the caddies would have long drive contests for bragging rights. Hogan realized that if he hit low ‘stingers’ they would roll forever and that’s how he won. He used the same technique on tour. Nelson would go on to greatness as well and is credited with developing the hand-dropping, side-bending two-plane swing technique nearly everyone - who isn’t trying to emulate Moe Norman - uses today in the early 1930s, intuitively realizing at the top the kinetic energy generated in the club head mass accelerating it on the way up could be transferred into the then new hollow steel shafts by dropping the hands which bends and loads the shaft like a leaf spring, releasing it at the bottom. Gene Sarazen invented the high bounce sand wedge we all use today after the USGA banned the “Spoon” with concave face that had been used to scoop balls out of bunkers, requiring irons to have flat faces. So he melted lead on the sole in his garage with a blowtorch to create a snowplow effect which came to be known as as “bounce”. I recall reading that someone measured Bobby Jones’s PW in the case at Augusta National and discovered it had negative bounce which helps when hitting approach shots off tight lies. He was one of the first to use a set of clubs with graduated lofts and lengths but stayed with Hickory shafts long after most on the pro tour had switched to steel shafts which twist less during the swing. Trevino was is one of the smartest and intuitive golfers on the tour back in his era. I’ve watched a lot of his videos and he explained he developed his swing around the goal of keeping the club head flying down the target line as long as possible before and just after impact which requires a swing with a lot of side bend which lowers the hands and the swing path requiring a flatter lie angle on the clubs. High speed photography and radar measuring devices like Trackman have nearly totally replaced the type of intuition Hogan, Nelson, Norman, and Trevino used to figure things out on their own by trial, error and thoughtful observation and reflection. Starting with Nicklaus success on the pro level started to rely more and more on who had a rich Daddy who could afford a top level coach for their kid rather than the kid’s ability to figure out the cause and effect by themselves. Tiger, Phil and Rory were all products of that type of coaching. It took a guy named Homer Kelley, a draftsman at Boeing who took up golf his 30s and spent hours at the range just watching other golfers - the good, the bad and the ugly - to really understand the golf swing in terms of its underlying physics and bio-mechanical leverage strategies and techniques in ‘The Golf Machine’. He taught a new generation of analytical coaches like the amazing Ben Doyle in Carmel, CA who coached a lot of kids who later wound up on the pro tour. Karsten Solheim, a GE engineer who also took up golf in his 30s in the 1950s created the first modern high MOI putters and irons: 1A mallet and Anser blade putters and PING EYE perimeter weighted irons and woods.

[@johnbrodnik839]

Nice! I see you are a student Of the game. I saw the great players of yesterday and caddied in a few tournaments. All were ball stickers. If you weren’t, you sold insurance and snuck out in the afternoon between calls! 😊 I finally bought a top of the line loft and lie machine. Tired of people who can’t do basic math like measuring length and lie angle and loft. I went through my irons and could not figure out why I was hooping long irons and losing distance. I measured a set of old Mizuno Mp 33’s that I still hit the 6 iron 180 ish. Perfect trajectory and straight. Found out that it was about 3 degrees flat from Mizuno spec Japan. Heavier shaft. Dg S 300. At over 70 now, it took nearly 30 years to figure it out! So sick of this hot iron BS too! Just hit the next club up!!

[@1974jrod]

​@johnbrodnik839 what is "hooping" long irons? What was loft and lie on that 6 iron?

[@djpoints]

​@@johnbrodnik839very interesting conversation, especially bc I play those same exact mp33 clubs, and also feel like I pure the 6 very similar carry distance, but hoop (If I understand correctly) the longer ones. And even though I know lots about this game and its history I do not know nearly enough about its equipment, so if you dont mind elaborating a bit I'm trying to understand what exactly you figured out regarding the japanese specs since it seemed to be a major epiphany! Regards, Nat

[@TeddyCavachon]

@@johnbrodnik839 I played for years with a 3i - SW set of Eye2 found at a thrift store for $60. PW in that set is 50° and was my 100 yard club, SW 80 yards in my late 50s. When PING reissued the Eye2 XG Lob wedge after the 2011 groove rule changed I bought one and it cost $120, twice the cost of the others. There was a par 3 at my course which was always between my PW and 9 iron so I bought a second 50° PW and took the two PW, the SW and the LW to a shop and had the lofts adjusted to 50, 52, 56, and 60. About four years ago I switched to a used set of circa 2008 S57 irons 3i-PW (47°) retaining my Eye2 50, 56, and 60 for wedges. Now 72 I recently switched and am enjoying to a set of circa 2000 Mizuno T-Zoid Pro irons 3i-PW, 52, 58 I found on NextDoor for $120. My 3W is a Callaway X I found at a thrift ten years. Driver is my PING G425, my only ‘new tech’ concession, replacing a Callaway FT-5 9°. Last Saturday at an estate sale picked up ten more golf books to read. 😀

[@mydogdidit]

@@1974jrod I wondered the same but assumed that it is a typo and he meant hooking. But not sure. Just never heard of hooping, lol.

[@thewi7ard]

John Erickson preaches 6° flat clubs. His explanation if brought to it's total extreme, more upright changes left right dispersion while more flat changes high low dispersion. In other words flatter clubs have straighter misses.

[@sonnymarks6997]

John erickson is the best !!

[@rossmcdonough4329]

How much more bs can you come up with?

[@wayneriley7367]

Agreed, I’m looking into flattening most of my clubs 2-3degrees

[@craigcrawford6749]

I lowered mine by 2-3°. Got me to a single handicap. I got onto this by watching John. Best thing I ever did.

[@MiloLinesGolf]

Nice!

[@tomnelson8515]

One other factor to look at is the average height of the golfers today vs golfers of yesterday. Shorter people (w/hands closer to ground) need a flatter club. John Rahm 6'2". . .. Tiger Woods 6' 1", Lee Trevino 5'7", Ben Hogan 5'8" But that said, at 5'10" with long arms, I have always favored flat lie clubs. I think this video makes a great point that few pros ever explore. One other that understands this is John Erickson at Advanced Ball Striking.

[@MiloLinesGolf]

Height and body dimensions is definitely a factor.

[@ForewardGolf]

Everything matters, thanks for watching!

[@A-FrameWedge]

But there are tall players that have very long arms and their hands are just as close to the ground as shorter players with average length arms

[@adamdodson8055]

The amateur most often attempts to accelerate the club with active force from the hands and arms. This action forces the handle up and toe down. Elite strikers tow the club head through and generally do fit into clubs that are flatter than their physical counterparts in the amateur world.

[@johnbrodnik839]

Tigers 6 1”? Stood next to him. Not sure

[@pgadarelpgadarel8639]

Before Titleist had a fitting system, their tour van came to our course, (we hosted a Senior tour event), the guys in the van showed me how tour players flattened their clubs, especially their wedges. Most tour players to this day have their wedges 2 degrees flatter that the rest of their clubs. I asked why? They told me "what is the worst shot you can hit with a wedge?" A hook. I have played flat clubs and flatter wedges since then, and my wedge play is so much better, not having to worry about hitting a short club left.

[@MiloLinesGolf]

Yep, flatter wedges are the way!

[@ocat1979]

Flatter lie angles is the best kept secret in golf. Upright lies twist more left to right (horizontal dispersion), flat lie angles twist more up and down (vertical dispersion) But remember Hogans clubs were not only flat, they were HEAVY and had super stiff shafts

[@TeaZeCinema]

I did a fitting with Chad and ordered some of his clubs 5 degrees flat, it was legit shocking how good it felt i wouldve never tried something that flat but his fitting process is awesome

[@MiloLinesGolf]

That's excellent!

[@ForewardGolf]

🐯 🪧 thats why we do it!!

[@colonelbuster9335]

It's funny this video came out because recently I hit an exact replica of Hogan's 7 iron. It was an old club from the 70's I think. It was exactly 4.5 degrees flat from standard. I know this because we measured it. I didn't hit a single ball left (right handed player) and I hit it about 20 times. Every shot started off a fraction right of my intended start line, where as before everything started out just left of my intended start line. My clubs are now 3.5 degrees flat from standard even though I'm a shorter person. Now I don't start the ball left anymore, unless I pull one left.

[@EaglesEric1]

Thanx for this video. I have been following your technique and now have a consistent to explore lie angles. I like the term prescription. I need to get my club lie angles adjusted flat

[@MiloLinesGolf]

Make sure to reach out to Chad and his team, they do a great job!

[@randysitzgolf]

Love the fitting technique that Chad put together. Went trough the remote fitting a few weeks ago and it was eye opening for sure. My JPX 923 Forged irons were close to the prescription that he put together after the fitting. FG fitting prescription: Lighter shaft 80 gram with mid kick ( Steel fiber 80i), stiff flex with soft step, mid bounce soul, 3/4 inch longer shafts, mid size grips, overall lighter swing weight, 2 degrees flat. There were 24 clubs in the fitting process, 3 clubs per swing parameter.

[@MiloLinesGolf]

Definitely a great process!

[@ForewardGolf]

Stoked you like it!

[@randysitzgolf]

@@ForewardGolf Going to have you guys make the 7 iron for me and try it out.

[@jacobr4558]

This is fascinating! I'm currently going down the rabbit hole with equipment in the more I learn the more I realize it's hard to find good information. Not sure if you've done a video on this yet I'm currently learning about the balance point in the clubs in finding that to be huge! As a left hand left side dominant golfer who plays right-handed my lead side dominates a lot of the action and for me finding the balance point on the golf club is tremendous! So far counterbalance clubs are high balance point clubs in shafts are the only things that are working that actually allow me to load and unload the club. I'm starting to believe that most golfers swing flaws are actually more about their equipment because they're making micro compensations and subconscious compensations throughout their swing because the equipment doesn't fit them

[@astro61362]

Interesting. The best golf I have ever played were with Ping Eye 2 orange dots. (2 degrees flat). I really love my current set Cleveland Hibore. I'm not sure if I can get these bent flatter.

[@jamessipes122]

This guy is worth listening to

[@MiloLinesGolf]

Yes he knows

[@tobywilkes1670]

Interesting stuff. I feel like the spinner balls (and shorter length courses) were a huge factor in promoting swings that would have 'tighter' dispersions etc, as opposed to today's lower spin power game. Interesting that flat lie angles could be a tool used to help achieve that kinda swing. That's quite different to today's approach of fitting clubs to a poor swing! Lot of guys today using lots of vertical force to maximise distance ... would this mean trend towards more upright lie angles?

[@luissantiago1832]

Thank you for a great video!

[@MiloLinesGolf]

You bet Luis, and thanks for watching! If I can help you any further in swinging like an athlete, check out my playbook and online academy here: swinglikeanathlete.com

[@shotsavior1236]

Love it. There are so many "boiler plate" prescriptions to fitting; I'm glad to see [were] still learning. Excellent content!

[@MiloLinesGolf]

Thanks so much for following along!

[@ForewardGolf]

Still so much to learn, thanks for watching.

[@Mbsmoothe]

Have you ever talked to John Erickson or Bradley Hughes? It seems like you have some things in common on the swing. They are advocators of flat clubs, up to 6 degrees.

[@rayhickey6768]

I immediately thought of Bradley Hughes. I believe he uses clubs 5 degrees flat.

[@heroichand1646]

I just changed all my Lie angles on my irons and wedges to 6 degre flat , wedges felt a bit funky. but my normal set up was 3 degre flat and with that i cant fade a single one of my irons ,. But on the range Yesterday there was some fade with the 6 flat. Im playing a round today cant wait to se how the irons preform 🌞

[@MiloLinesGolf]

Keep us posted on your results!

[@heroichand1646]

I like the change so far but the wedges may be over done so 6 flat is a bit to much . I will play with it some more to be sure , but i did not end up with less curve on my draws , so i have ben to the range in order to change my release so that the face dont Roll over but looks more back at me , and that helps , now im hitting a Cut . I for sure feel i need to rotate with this setup chest more open , and keep the shaft on plane or a bit higher not to dump it under like i tend to do .

[@nedgermany]

Definitely reminds me of John Erickson. Milo, if you play a super flat iron, what happens when you hit hybrids. Fairway woods. Driver? Seems like it would screw you up ?

[@ForewardGolf]

Woods are definitely more limited with lie angle, as we continue to search for where good golf lives this will be a step in the process!

[@ngascoigne]

I bend Titleist 975D drivers and PT fairways 6 degrees flat for John Ericksons students.​@@ForewardGolf

[@marktheblake]

Wishon makes Hybrids and FW's that can be bent for lie angle

[@tsdean1980]

Flatter lies reduce the directional miss when face angle is off. Eg open face goes less right, the ball just smidge higher. Upright lies magnify the face discrepancy and make you miss more left or right.

[@FGrecoJR]

This makes no sense

[@bobbypeck5065]

My iron shots consistently go straight then draw at the end. Was told my irons lie was a bit too upright and need to flatten out. Is that right? And how much to flatten?

[@lawbinson]

More likely a club path issue if it's starting straight.

[@livingtribunal4110]

6'3" here, wrist-to-floor around 35-36" I have my irons extended 0.5" and 1.5° upright. Absolutely no problems for me with this setup. 🤔

[@jamescameron314]

You seem to be an orangutan.

[@putting63]

Would like to try and bend my irons flatter but my divots are toe deep so afraid to do so I play off scratch so doing pretty well but fed up with a left miss with my irons Would you think its worth a try when my delivery is toe down?

[@PBRStreetGang68]

Good luck James, your swing is excellent. One shot at a time my friend ❤

[@MiloLinesGolf]

James?

[@miguelquintana8076]

Super interesting. I tend to over draw. My grip needs work, but i feel like 2 degrees might change my game a bit.

[@MiloLinesGolf]

Could, I would certainly reach out to Chad or an expert fitter before making changes.

[@ArmLifter]

Couple questions: (1) if flat lie angles help, should a golfer seek a driver with as flat a lie angle as possible? (2) Is it a rule of thumb that softer iron shafts have more "droop" than stiff ones and therefore should be a bit longer?

[@MiloLinesGolf]

Often times yes however lower lofted clubs with ball on a tee are less affected by different lie angles

[@MiloLinesGolf]

And yes softer shafts generally droop more

[@gerrymcintosh4477]

This is a very good video. Well done Milo. 🇨🇦💝🇺🇸👍

[@MiloLinesGolf]

Thanks Gerry!

[@marktheblake]

I am already at 4 deg flat, with an upright swing and go from shallow to steep into impact. So in theory If i can solve that problem I might need flatter. Problem is most club specifications suggest only 2 degrees of bending, and i dont really wanna play with 1950's irons. 😅 so what are the really bendable irons?

[@BroncoYeller]

Question for Messrs Lines and Dietz: This flat lie concept seems to be a good solution for someone who creates and maintains a deep hip angle and steep shoulder tilt through impact. What about the normal golfer who cannot get into those positions?

[@MiloLinesGolf]

the ideal fitting will certainly depend on the player as Chad states, the "prescription"

[@BroncoYeller]

@@MiloLinesGolf I got fitted at a local shop, but it was super basic and there was no in depth process. Can you please recommend a top notch facility?

[@user_1664]

Ive got fairly long arms , and im 5’10” , i consistently overdraw my irons , i can hold off or open my stance but still i overdraw , i naturally fade driver but im pretty straight with woods and can do anything with a hybrid but those damn irons just seem so toe up to me …. I have to set up with the face around 4 degrees open just to feel like i can start it on line ( a bit right) . Flatter lies was my next stop , i may get a spare set done and try it …

[@MiloLinesGolf]

Awesome. Reach out to Chad and Foreward Golf for their thoughts! If I can ever be of further help to you in learning to Swing Like an Athlete, please do check out my website at milolinesgolf.com for in-person or online lessons, golf schools, or to become a member of my Online Academy.

[@joecalvacca3195]

What do u suggest for a 12 handicap golfer regarding lie angles? -2,3,4 thanks

[@MiloLinesGolf]

Totally depends on the player, I would suggest connecting with a reputable fitter, or Chad and Foreward Golf to get you on the right path.

[@gerrymcintosh4477]

My custom fit Ping irons are so flat they are off Ping’s chart. They gave me orange lie angles, but they are 3 degrees flatter than that. 🤷‍♂️👍

[@McFrosty2014]

How do you manage lie angles in your woods and driver Milo?

[@MiloLinesGolf]

Not as important in driver as there isn’t much loft. I play shorter fwy woods than standard

[@mikemoodie]

Most of us are fitted 2 degrees upright because we early extend. Fix the swing first. I had my irons flattened to standard and hit the ball terribly. Perhaps I needed to work on my swing more.

[@MiloLinesGolf]

As we said in the video, Chad and other fitters we’ve brought on work with the individual and don’t just move clubs to move clubs. It’s possible there were other factors in your case to consider.

[@castnoshadow82lr48]

2’ flat me. Not so much in Trevino’s day but im hogans day wasn’t the sweet spot closer to the heel?

[@josearielflores8094]

The moment of impact 🎉

[@MiloLinesGolf]

Theirs was pretty good!

[@Master...deBater]

Damn...Henry has a beautiful swing!!!

[@MiloLinesGolf]

=)

[@tomlassar1089]

softer "whippier" shafts--is this in part the secret as to why folks hit the Autoflex shaft so well ?

[@ForewardGolf]

Hard to say, the technology's hidden.

[@nedgermany]

I smoke the autoflex

[@7777mantle]

Very interesting regarding the shaft being almost a lady's flex. It would be great if someone could interview Lee Trevino to discuss why he setup his angles flat.

[@MiloLinesGolf]

In the old days, everything was trial and error. I would almost bet many of the players from his era would sit on the range with a bending machine experimenting with what gave them the best results.

[@ForewardGolf]

Lee is a legend, thanks for watching!

[@CaribSurfKing1]

How does this apply to drivers/3 woods and hybrids than are barely able to be moved upright/flat? Are the pros all playing 6 degree flat drivers? I have found the best way to measure the correct lie angle is to play 2 daysa after a rain. The divot after impact will show you a horizontal line on your club face of mud. You know instantly if you too upright or flat. I think the moral here is what is said. a fade is always better than a draw, why, because the ball stops quicker from its landing spot

[@johnbrodnik839]

Finally figured this out after buying a quality loft and lie machine! Yikes! Nothing like going from almost 3 up to 2flat. Wedges can’t go flat enough for me.

[@MiloLinesGolf]

Nice work!

[@samking4179]

beautiful scenery!

[@MiloLinesGolf]

A great spot!

[@jonnymiller7788]

I saw the view everyday on my Ups route.Never gets old!

[@samking4179]

@@jonnymiller7788 Nice!

[@ssubotai]

On KZbin fitters often sort out leaks to the right with upright lie angles, but is there then a chance that it promotes a worse swing for already struggling players?

[@ForewardGolf]

Only one way to find out, test everything!

[@KNYD650]

I've been playing for about 5 yrs, standard length and lie. Typical shot starts right curves right, LOL. After watching this a few weeks ago I tired out some irons that were 2* flat. I was expecting to be even more right, instead started drawing everything. My mind was blown as it contradicted everytyhing I've read on lie angle and start line. Tempted to try the softer shaft now too.

[@MiloLinesGolf]

Many variables to consider which is why we always recommend a professional fitting!

[@FGrecoJR]

Its interesting. I would say flatter lies and lower hands at impact may make sense for accuracy but you will never see a long drive guy without very high hands at impact.

[@ForewardGolf]

The 7 iron is a precision tool, the driver is not.

[@FGrecoJR]

Hmm perhaps. But you name Hogan and Trevino. But don't mention Tiger, Jack, Scheffler, Watson, Couples, Norman etc with very high hands at impact.

[@osirisptah]

I feel like I'm missing something here.... To just say that you need to have you clubs flattened and you will hit better is a bit misleading. Correct me if I'm wrong, but this should be based on the individuals measurements and not a blanket statement based on the club itself. As an example, I'm 6'3", if I bent my clubs 6d down from standard I'd be hitting so much toe in the dirt I'd have the opposite issue. I have mine bent up 3d, which gives me a flatter lie angle and promotes what you are saying. I feel that this is what you mean, and not just a general comment for the club from standard, but in relation to the individual. As you were comparing the two clubs being 11d difference, I'd likely see better results with the 6d upright than the 6d flat because of my wrist to ground measurements would put that closer to flat for me. Maybe I'm wrong or maybe this is obvious to some.

[@MiloLinesGolf]

Of course everything is relative. The idea is to flex and rotate not extend and flip what that looks like will depend significantly on the anatomy of the individual.

[@truth68-st3dc]

The lie changes before impact. Is this factored in?

[@MiloLinesGolf]

Assuming you are speaking to droop, deflection, etc? Their fittings are effectively done dynamically because it is based on the contact, ground interaction, and ball flight. Here is another video on this: kzbin.info/www/bejne/lZzRmJ1_qJasarc

[@truth68-st3dc]

@@MiloLinesGolf thanks for the reply and new video.

[@tristangregory2378]

Totally agree 👍

[@EhtizanEditor2]

Hey Milo, I just watched your video and I must say that it was really informative and well-made. I was wondering if I could help you edit your videos and repurpose your long videos into highly engaging shorts? I can also make high CTR thumbnails for your channel

[@MiloLinesGolf]

Thanks but we already have a team for that

[@B1976T]

Am 6'1" and 34" wrist to floor and play 3 degrees flat

[@zacharystokes]

Chad from Foreward. 😊

[@MiloLinesGolf]

Love his stuff!

[@zacharystokes]

I live 3 miles from the bunker and just discovered him this year. I’ll be doing a fitting in a couple months.

[@lawbinson]

Doesn't over length make it okay more effectively upright

[@MiloLinesGolf]

Yes, so the flatter lie gets offset a touch.

[@christianmani1730]

Could it be that they were shorter men and needed a flatter lie angle? Lee is 5’7” and Ben was 5’8”:

[@MiloLinesGolf]

That is part of it for sure

[@thewi7ard]

But Hogan was a total knuckle dragger! Freakishly long arms.

[@nelsonjames1272]

Absolutely!!! And this dude plays his 7 iron here at a much higher length which makes it technically play more upright from standard.

[@toneyo4794]

@@nelsonjames1272I think it’s the opposite, the longer your club the flatter your swing, so lengthen the club and you can flatten the iron. Your wedge swing is much more upright than your driver. Think of a club that is 10 feet long. You have to swing very flat.

[@manstick1]

Man I love to golf.....

[@MiloLinesGolf]

what a game!

[@eloramirez5181]

Where do I buy or how do I get a flat iron

[@MiloLinesGolf]

I'd recommend getting fit, but many irons you can bend to your desired lie angle.

[@eloramirez5181]

@MiloLinesGolf Thank you. I did a little research. I'll be up to see you sometime this summer. I would love the opportunity to get a fitting with you

[@MiloLinesGolf]

I don't do fittings myself, but I can typically tell based on the student in front of me roughly what would work best for them. I would suggest going to our partners at Cool Clubs in Scottsdale or seeing Chad (from video) who is in Ventura, California or he could send you a kit.

[@eloramirez5181]

@MiloLinesGolf Great Thank you, sir. appreciate it

[@TrevorScott465]

Flat clubs hit it straighter. It’s physics!

[@MiloLinesGolf]

Not always they must fit the swing of the golfer swinging them

[@bga9388]

Hogan and Trevino were/are around 5.7 with long arms. So they had a natural advantage. Faldo eg. at 6.3 was alway looking for compromises. The other end of the scale is Bryson with a different swing type Not against a flatter swing at all. The less the hands will go into ulnar at impact; the better the shot. To get the angle just right two other factors are in the equation: 1. distance to the ball. 2. head weight in relation to club length for a playable club. Player must find an optimum.

[@MichaelShinosky]

Yup. I bought into the flatter lie angle theory. Clubs 2 degrees flat. Started standing way too far from the ball and coming over it to keep it from going right and way of the toe. I have a wrist to floor that is 37.5 inches at 6 feet. I'm now three degrees upright and half inch over. My rotation is the best it's ever been. I don't stand far from it anymore and I almost never miss left. Actually missed it left more often with a flatter lie angle. I can now swing a little more in to out and get myself into a really good position at impact. A lot less minor manipulations as well. Center face strikes constantly. I actually need a driver that is well upright as well as my smash goes up .05 with longer more upright clubs that OEMs don't offer off the rack anymore. 60 degree LA is the max and I need probably another degree or two since can't go longer than 46 inches to dynamically get the lie angle correct. One would think a more upright lie angle would go more left. But this is just not the case. I can actually start to hit push draws again with the same move I made back in 2010 that I couldn't seem to execute a year ago with flat angles. Body dynamics play a huge role in relation to static club setups. I was well outside the mean for my body type. In fact I have unknowingly been playing on the edge of that mean my whole life at standard LLL.. It took going way outside the mean to finally really figure it out.

[@Coupeondaytons]

The upright clubs start with sorry swing instruction. Years ago when they started this point the butt of the club at the ball mess. Trevino on Hogan's butt of the club points above the ball under the plane. Hence flat lie angles. That and club manufacturers have no idea what they're doing. Upright clubs promote steep swings. I guess club manufacturers figure the more upright they make them the average golfer will not slice as bad.

[@BytorTheSnowDog]

There’s literally video of Lee Trevino , words out of his mouth , saying he played standard , just saying….relative to individual irons , loft , length , etc have changed over time…but for his era he played standard

[@robertmcdonald7616]

anybody know what lie angle Moe played

[@dubblwide]

In the early days of Moe mania during the heyday of Natural Golf, they maintained that his clubs-and therefore theirs-were upright, 2 degrees I think. I’ve since heard Todd Graves maintain the opposite. He would be able to inform you definitively.

[@nelsonjames1272]

Be careful here. Don’t mess too much with lie angle or you’ll struggle. A 61 or 62 degree lie standard length 7 iron will fit most to where they should be with a decent swing. Shaft droop with very soft shafts only.

[@ForewardGolf]

Assume nothing, test everything!

[@trebor5760]

6’4 with short arms. 2 degrees upright which I regret but can’t afford to change them…😢

[@TheWedgeWizard]

Same lies as Tiger.

[@ForewardGolf]

Have to find your match! Thanks for watching

[@nelsonjames1272]

2 degrees upright from what though? Manufacturers are different.

[@trebor5760]

@@nelsonjames1272 Ping, it was the case of not great player getting fit and now I am improving the clubs just feel a little too upright. This video resonated with me.

[@kevins.6204]

I'm 6'4" with shorter arms as well. Always was fit into 2 degrees upright. I had a test club bent 1 degree flat and hitting it better. 👍

[@ArmLifter]

Right now I'm two degrees flat.

[@MiloLinesGolf]

Nice, assuming that's proper for you

[@johnbrodnik839]

I think we play irons and drivers Way too long. Why? More distance for the manufacturers. I have brand new sets of Hogan irons that are shorter by an inch compared to my Mizuno’s. All of them are flat and I hit the ball very straight. I’m over 6ft. Weight also has a part of the swing too.

[@thomastatum4974]

Golf courses were also shorter in Hogan's day.

[@MiloLinesGolf]

@@thomastatum4974 relative to how far the ball went they were much longer

[@mydogdidit]

@@MiloLinesGolf Now that it is an interesting statement! Makes me wonder length of courses then comparatively. Regarding the ball, I played a *lot* of golf using balata balls... the 70s and 80s, at least, don't recall when wound balata phased out.

[@ElvisPriscillaPresley]

Brad Hughes was banging on this more than 10 years ago.

[@MiloLinesGolf]

@@ElvisPriscillaPresley many coaches have!

[@henrymcvey6538]

I’m a little guy and play 2 degree flat irons. I’m very straight as a rule. Now I’m thinking of going 2 more degrees flat.😆

[@MiloLinesGolf]

Might be worth a look Henry! If I can ever be of further help to you in learning to Swing Like an Athlete, please do check out my website at milolinesgolf.com for in-person or online lessons, golf schools, or to become a member of my Online Academy.

[@TopblokeGolf]

Is this a Brad hughes vid from 10 years ago? 😂

[@ForewardGolf]

The truth is hard to change! 🐯🏳

[@BytorTheSnowDog]

If you really get into Lee Trevino’s prime he played various irons that he pulled out of a wooden barrel, early 70s before lightening strike, at this point he was at the top of his game

[@jacobr4558]

The only thing I don't like about this is you're going from one box and putting everyone else in a different box. That's the issue that I keep having with instruction and tips and ideas. Just some of the variables when you think about it with equipment for example with the idea of going flatter okay some patterns might work that way depending on the person's physical makeup their swing characteristics their timing their strength etcetera. Yet you'd also have to factor in the shaft weight the head weight the grip size the grip weight where the kick points going to be there so many factors that go into it that the problem is if he gave me that club maybe I would swing it better but that doesn't mean it actually fits me I still might be adjusting to it. I feel like the entire fitting process is backwards for professionals they make the club fit them. So Lee Trevino and Ben Hogan would tell their fitter this is what I'm trying to do make a club that does that. Where is the Casual golfer or the less experienced golfer that doesn't have access to an actual fitter the Fitters going to hand them a club and say how does that feel and all the golfers trying to do is get a certain ball flight. You at the club itself isn't fitting them they are fitting to the club. I feel like it's two different worlds

[@terryp007100]

I'm lost. I was too focused on why he would keep hitting from a divot, and didn't learn anything.

[@MiloLinesGolf]

Hmm, what can I help clarify? We hit from the same spot to avoid tearing up a bunch of good grass.

[@robertmcdonald7616]

do you not believe in a dynamic lie test ,ie lie board read at impact not address. surely we need look at shaft droop etc.

[@MartinAyersGolf]

Dynamic lie tests aren’t great, the player reacts to the tool. They can move badly to get the club to work.

[@rw_golf6387]

😮

[@MiloLinesGolf]

His fitting processes are solid! If I can ever be of further help to you in learning to Swing Like an Athlete, please do check out my website at milolinesgolf.com for in-person or online lessons, golf schools, or to become a member of my Online Academy.

[@dapoggi4434]

I am a retired club maker/fitter and I have been shouting that the clubs that are being manufactured are way too upright, That includes everything from the driver down to the wedges. It is true as clubmakers we tend to bend the wedges a little more flat. I have never understood why play clubs so upright a great way to increase your handicap. A golf swing should be more around your body easier on your lumbar easier way to pick up natural club head speed plus you stay in the shot you simply have better posture and better control of the low point. I don't know much about Milo or his rotational swing, but will say the flatter you swing the club it shallows and the best ball strikers always hit from a shallow descending blow.

[@MiloLinesGolf]

Thanks so much for watching, this one was a lot of fun! I agree on the club-maker points. Longer and more upright over the years. Everyone is different though and getting an expert fitting can really help!

[@1DCCX]

Unless by steep you mean ‘upright’ in a 2D down the line view, the best players hit from a flat shaft angle and relatively steep angle of attack. Especially in the past with balata. They needed to launch it lower and cover it. ‘Steep’ I prefer to associate with AoA, but in any case, ‘steep’, ‘upright’ is actually the club rotating closed, tumbling out in front of you. It morphs into upright by impact because all the momentum is tumbling that way. It’s the beginner-slicer trying to correct an open face more upright lie angles are to an extent, slice mitigation the clubmakers are building into it. Better players have better low point control and tend to miss thin and to the heel. High handicaps tend to make the shaft more upright and come in *shallow*, pick it, or hit it fat. Hit it out the toe. When you turn the corner on flat planes it comes in steep. Think Sergio Garcia. Low distance efficiency. If you look at modern balls and clubs, and the trends in angle of attack it is getting shallower, because the ball spins less and clubs need tungsten and low COG. The course design and length has changed the parameters. But even so, pros and top players have steeper AoA generally than poor players. The main benefit of flat clubs is directional control versus trajectory as the club is being spun into impact. It also encourages a clockwise arm and club pattern, because your brain forces the body to accommodate it to make contact. Upright lie angles mean less work, less *need* to swing correctly.

[@exitar1]

Do you really think more senior golfers can do this?

[@MiloLinesGolf]

I know many can through experience. Will it look exactly like the kids, No but they can move better than they think often enough!

[@davidsutton6616]

Patrick Reed plays 5 degrees flat.

[@MiloLinesGolf]

Yes he does

[@zaxophne]

Hogan hit heavy very stiff shafts though.

[@freowho9974]

I disagree with this. I went down the Erikson rabbit hole and deliberately played flat lie angles in everything including woods for 12 months. Worst golf I've played and got worse the more I stuck with it. Went back to 1 degree up clubs in everything and the good golf returned pretty quickly. Jack and Tiger were 1 degree up.

[@MiloLinesGolf]

@@freowho9974 nothing is for everyone. Much has to do with a player’s anatomy.

[@johnhoie-hj7cg]

I’ve been fitted several times. They all came out 2 degrees upright. Everyone is different.

[@jeffprescher6145]

There's nothing quite like dragging the club toe through a thick Bermuda rough and having no idea what direction the ball will travel. It's like playing a slot machine and knowing that most of the time you will be disappointed.

[@jaybee7890]

Trevino and Hogan were like 5'7" tall of course their clubs are flat.

[@macdaddyblues1]

2 degrees flat (thanks to a fitter way back in the 80's that watched my ball flight), but every other fitter wants to put me at 2 up.... i hook em off the planet. Don't trust that lie board, doesn't work for everyone.

[@MiloLinesGolf]

Many of the expert fitters we work with don't love the lie board.

[@stevel6895]

It's 2024, anyone that doesn't know about lie adjustment must be living in a cave! Not everyone can play flat lies. There are determining factors for every player. Height, set up and swing plane being major factors. You should hit each club off a lie board and adjust individually. I'm 5'7" and my standard lie is 2 degrees flat.

[@johnbrodnik839]

Sorry. No lie boards! Ball flight is most important!! Then look at your divot. If they bring out a Lie board, RUN!! If they

[@TheOtherKine]

They were both small and short so naturally they were already flat LMAO

[@MiloLinesGolf]

Yet so many today play upright.

[@TheOtherKine]

@@MiloLinesGolf Well they're about 6 inches taller now LOL

[@ngascoigne]

John Erickson does a much better job of explaining the advantages of flat lie geometry, and did so many years. ago.

[@MiloLinesGolf]

Ok

[@tmt7912]

Kebanyakan ngomong

[@MiloLinesGolf]

Not sure what this means

[@henrymcvey6538]

So the old guys were way better players. Tiger the GOAT! No. That would be Nicklaus by a mile.

[@tonysmario817]

flat clubs aren’t a ‘secret’ and don’t account for anyone’s game!! ridiculous.

[@ForewardGolf]

Goodluck out there on the track! 🐯🏳

[@craigg2058]

Would you agree that a flatter downswing is more beneficial than steep? The thought behind having your irons bent flat is that it will encourage your swing/body motion to return the club on a flatter plane.

[@tonysmario817]

@@craigg2058 the club's 'flatness' at address has zero influence on the swing path, which is something unaffected by a change of clubs. if i am forced to use someone's 'upright' set of clubs, i will not change my swing path, i will simply hit more shots with the 'heel down' than normal.

[@craigg2058]

My experience has been different. If I have an upright club in hand I’m not going to continue to dig the heel in at impact. I’m going to athletically adjust my swing resulting in an unwanted steep downswing. Most equipment is set up too upright, resulting in an upright swing/downswing.

[@tonysmario817]

@@craigg2058 i understand your point...but i have never played a golf club SO upright that i cannot swing my flat swing with it...but as you say, the potential is there if a club is upright in the extreme for a person, which my experience has not found to be a real issue...nor do i believe a person's swing will be 'fixed' by using a flat club...though your point is simply that a flatter club will engender a flatter swing. but i'm not sure i agree except in each extreme, which is not really a practical issue. i'm not a tall person, but i have never had a problem swinging any standard club...the issue you're speaking of would seem to be the idea of a midget having to swing with tom wieskopf's equipment...but that just never happens in the real world. work on your SWING, and never mind the meaningless lie of the club!

[@jamescameron314]

Of course Trevino and Hogan had flat lies on their irons---Trevino is 5' 6" and Hogan was 5'7" in height!! They both HAD to have flat lies whereas a golfer of 6'3" would need upright lies!! Duh...!

[@MiloLinesGolf]

Anatomy definitely plays a major role in club fitting

[@giii7599]

Not true at all. Ernie Els is 2 degrees flat. Dustin Johnson is 2 flat as well.

[@warriordog4094]

waste of 12 min

[@MiloLinesGolf]

Why?

[@kipkapper3014]

micro degrees of club lie angle aren't promoting bad golf swing mechanics , come on.

[@MiloLinesGolf]

We aren’t talking about micro degrees

[@kipkapper3014]

it's satirical, swap micro to singular degrees. same point. there is no way club lie angle causes poor swing mechanics. at best it randomly changes the ball flight for shit swings. not the other way around.

[@ForewardGolf]

@@kipkapper3014 Best way to find out is to test it. Thanks for watching.

[@kipkapper3014]

@@ForewardGolf you know what , i will

[@darrinlygrisse5287]

If your clubs don’t fit, you will adapt over time and your swing will change, for better or worse.

[@andrewfricker6608]

..the lie must match Your Height....trying to swing flat or upright are wrong....standard lie matches around 5ft11in.height....impact is a straight line from left shoulder to ball...(not like low hands at adress,which i dont like)

[@giii7599]

Not true.