The Complete BUILDING Tier List in Eu4

[@LemonCake101]

What do you think of this 'new' format? Tell me here: discord.gg/bSs2e9YsFv

[@milleniumdragonknight4711]

I feel like there is a need for a Tier below D...

[@LemonCake101]

@@milleniumdragonknight4711 would be almost an insult though. Maybe if there is a good reason at some point, but I don't think any building is that bad.

[@alexmuller6752]

really like it, it is what i as a filthy casual have been missing from the tier lists because i sadly do not have all of the game memorized

[@pogusmogus3573]

remain calm. the all provinces tierlist endures. Lemon cake will suffer. There is much to be done.

[@LemonCake101]

... why do you wish to see me suffer...

[@Speedster___]

@@LemonCake101why not

[@LemonCake101]

@@Speedster___ I do not enjoy suffering personally. How about you go make one?

[@elgirl19]

@@LemonCake101 compromise with state tier list???

[@LemonCake101]

@@elgirl19 That's not the best compromise, I will need a big bribe to even consider that

[@benjaminhinz2552]

"You should ban slaves as early as possible" "Because slavery is immoral, right?" "No, to replace it with actually usefull tradegoods" -Peak minmax grindset.

[@LemonCake101]

What can I say Eu4 made me an abolitionist

[@alexmuller6752]

when i first encountrred that decision i was really glad. i mean moneywise, it is nice but more importantly i like being a nice colonizer and not having slave trade makes me happy

[@Nothing2150]

First time I've heard of a paradox game making someone a better person​@@LemonCake101

[@garmnor]

​@@Nothing2150have you played vic 2? slaves are awful there. they dont pay taxes!!!

[@NoahHofer]

Listened to this as background noise. 11/10

[@LemonCake101]

Impressive, considering it was out 2 min ago and is a 44 min video. You got that forbidden x22 times playback speed!

[@NoahHofer]

@@LemonCake101 gotta get my trolling in where in counts ;)

[@LemonCake101]

@@NoahHofer understandable, have a nice day

[@redvorno]

Actually, the description images helped me actually pay attention to the video instead of just listening to it, so it definitely helps

[@LemonCake101]

Thanks for letting me know!

[@matthewmcneany]

Making pop-ups disappear is like 90% of the reason I do things in EU IV.

[@LemonCake101]

For sure!

[@g.ricepad9470]

Next: all 974 tags tier list

[@LemonCake101]

Please no... its an improvement over all provinces, but not a good one...

[@Speedster___]

@@LemonCake101we the people demand it. You should it by region at least as like a 25k special then

[@LemonCake101]

@@Speedster___ please no

[@kyleadelaide]

​@@LemonCake101Do it do it do it do it

[@denizmergen418]

​@@LemonCake101 holy order tierlist

[@jodinha4225]

I really love how you try to tailor your context presentation to how your audience prefers to consume it. It's actually incredible sweet, and makes me feel like you really do just want to make things that people enjoy, which is rare on KZbin now. Love your work sm man ❤️

[@LemonCake101]

Good to hear, and thank you for the support, appreciate it!

[@hiptoptoe4847]

The new added details on the buildings has made this tier lists go from great to amazing!

[@LemonCake101]

Glad you enjoyed them!

[@wojciech7358]

The very niche usage for marketplace line buildings is boosting trade companies share - especialy when you can trade company only part of trade node (for example Lahore with capital in India)

[@LemonCake101]

Regarding the trade company trade value % goods produced thing, clearly by the comments a bunch of you guys do you use, in which case fair enough, but I consider that quite niche. Furthermore, it can still be done even without the marketplace, the marketplace just gives it a little bump.

[@grabbers6520]

@@LemonCake101 I don't think it's all that niche, marketplaces act as an effective way to boost your income when playing wide, since you're always using trade companies. It's a nice way to boost your income in the mid-game so you can snowball to eco hegemon. Getting about 10% more goods produced in 15 provinces in which you've already built manufactories is really worth it Imo

[@aluminiumknight4038]

This how i get my income when blobing, TC one state in each node and buff it up to get merchant

[@RmsOceanic]

I was playing an Inca campaign while hearing you talk about Ramparts, and when you said they'd been nerfed I tried building one on Cuzco, and there was no problem. I also had a line of Fort+Ramparts on various mountain forts defending me from the Ottomans for my Persia campaign last patch. That nerf either never happened or was quickly reversed.

[@LemonCake101]

Did they reverse the nerf? Cos I remember playing MP games with that nerf live and hating the change...

[@7777-z7p]

It was a proposed nerf that got reversed last year, before it got implemented. From one of the Domination dev diaries; "Ramparts can now only be placed on terrain which is seen as “Flatland” in the game. This means it is only possible to build ramparts on farmlands, grasslands, steppes, savannahs, drylands, (coastal) deserts and coastlines." (March 21st, 2023, Balance and User Modding) But, as said, it was reversed because it was a *very* unpopular proposal. Most every comment on the dev diary and EU4 reddit were against it. So, in the comments of the diary, Ogele said; "With that being said, the changes to the ramparts have been rolled back for 1.35. So it will be just like in 1.34 once the patch gets released." (March 21st, 2023, Balance and User Modding)

[@LemonCake101]

@@7777-z7p ah good to know. I haven't used them in SP, and in MP the mods I played with removed them, so that's great news AFAIK. Yeah for that reason, they should be much higher up.

[@DethmourneSilvermane]

I like shipyards in SP if you're doing a colonizer run, so that you can run more fleets to be actively fighting in more naval theaters - e.g. fighting other colonizers to prevent access to the Americas while you're also fighting in the molucca trade node etc.

[@chungus816]

Dock is S++ tier

[@LemonCake101]

well it sent me to S++ tier that's for sure

[@Makem12]

Coastal defenses should give +2 naval attrition coastal batteries should give an additional -1 diceroll to disembarking attackers.

[@LemonCake101]

That last one could be a pain to code in fairness, but a neat idea!

[@azpont7275]

Ramparts are pretty neat to plug the holes in the mountain in Anbennar. Building them in holds, if they are not border holds are pretty useless IMO. You can easily max out the building slots in holds, so finding a room for ramparts can be tricky.

[@LemonCake101]

I like it because +3 dice rolls :)

[@Ghosty99675985]

Nice video. I tend to rate the trade buildings higher because of the TC region goods produced bonus. Given that they're cheaper than manufactories and affect 10~20 provinces at once, they can end up extremely powerful for their price if you do the "only TC CoT provinces" strategy.

[@LemonCake101]

Fair enough, although although I think that's a pretty niche strategy overall, and even then its not reliant or anything on the trade buildings: it still works well without them.

[@mrperson1O1]

Trade companies and boosting trade power aren't niche lmao. If you don't use them you are missing out on a lot of income

[@sirjmo]

Attrition really got nerfed hard when they implemented a limit back when the introduced policies. Stacking attrition was kind of nuts back in the day having enemy armies lose over 12% of their manpower every month they're sieging you...

[@LemonCake101]

Yeah, without a cap that's insane

[@sirjmo]

@@LemonCake101 to be fair there were a lot less modifiers to play with and stack back in the day, but it was pretty insane especially with the AI's tendency to doomstack.

[@LemonCake101]

@@sirjmo for sure, the amount of modifiers we have to work with these days is insane!

[@justdoitlater9507]

i mainly use marketplaces to get the merchant from trade companies. if you combine markets with the company depot building you don`t have to trade company as many provinces.

[@LemonCake101]

That can be true, although honestly I tend to just... conquer the rest of the provinces.

[@LibertyMonk]

​@@LemonCake101 if you're not building marketplaces in CoTs, and tearing them down outside of those areas, you'd still have to TC almost half of the node to get a merchant. With marketplaces in the CoTs, you can state most of the provinces and just get a merchant off the back of one or two areas per region. This also does disgusting things to the "trade companies in region" goods produced modifier for all the stated land in the node. Yes, conquering the rest of the provinces is good, but simply adding them to the trade company isn't abusing the game for money as much as possible.

[@LemonCake101]

@@LibertyMonk within that strategy I guess it’s pretty decent, but I think it’s fair to say that is it not how most people use trade companies

[@stephenbernard3003]

@@LemonCake101the line between what people do and what is optimal is very far in this game. It’s why my TTM took 100 hours and finished in 1730 and other people play Germany to 1821.

[@calmkat9032]

Another thing about forts is that they passively reduce devastation in the provinces in their zone of control. So, they're pretty good unless you're playing really, really wide.

[@sharinel]

This video has been brought to you by Lemon 'With That Said' Cake

[@LemonCake101]

Its honestly becoming a catchphrase at this point. With that said though, on to other comments.

[@RandomCasualPlayer]

I think you should add an F-tier just for naval batteries. The hostile fleet attrition doesn't work against someone with maritime ideas; because of the sea_repair modifier, you don't lose sailors. At least the last time I tested it, I doubt Paradox fixed it.

[@LemonCake101]

I would have thought so too, but a suprising amount of naval enjoyers came out to defend the naval buildings, and those as well!

[@evilemuempire9550]

I find them selectively useful, usually for something like getting Venice to repair their ships, allowing me onto their island. But that only really works on ai

[@RandomCasualPlayer]

You can use marketplaces to generate money by combaning them with trade companies. For example, if you are playing Russia and after you move your capital, you can create trade companies in Kazan and in other places. By placing a markerplace on the province of Kazan, making it a trade company, and sabotaging all other trade centers, you can increase the power of the trade company so it gives you more trade good modifier in the tradenode. So technically speaking the marketplace is generating more money indirectly from trade and production.

[@LemonCake101]

Regarding the trade company trade value % goods produced thing, clearly by the comments a bunch of you guys do you use, in which case fair enough, but I consider that quite niche. Furthermore, it can still be done even without the marketplace, the marketplace just gives it a little bump.

[@veborn1712]

Every edict in eu4 tierlist or every combat bonus (discipline, morale, shock dmg, military tactics, etc.)

[@LemonCake101]

Edict tier list? Could be a shout I guess, there's been a bunch added in fairness.

[@dakotabanks4984]

I find that in singleplayer the ai becomes really hesitant to land you if you have naval batteries, thus I find them useful when playing in Indonesia/the Moluccas against colonizers since they often have way more soldiers/ships than you and you can build like 1 every state and essentially prevent blockades and landings in their entirety. Also if you build on on Cape the ai hates to move their ships that way so you can prevent Portuguese/Spanish/British/French fleets from even getting close to your region.

[@LemonCake101]

I mean, I find the AI hesitant to land me regardless in fairness.

[@balazsscheier5901]

Market places are pretty useful to get over 50% tradeshare for the trade companies. And even after you controll all the trade in a trade region it's still pretty useful for the goodsproduced bonus you get based on the tradepower share of trade companies.

[@LemonCake101]

Regarding the trade company trade value % goods produced thing, clearly by the comments a bunch of you guys do you use, in which case fair enough, but I consider that quite niche. Furthermore, it can still be done even without the marketplace, the marketplace just gives it a little bump.

[@Clepovoron]

great work. your videos keeping me playing eu4 for almost half a year when im about to quit and new video of mechanics and tier lists returning my interes for game yet religion tear list nothing can beat, im shure

[@LemonCake101]

I would like to think I can improve on that, but good to know I am part of the reason you rekindled your love for this amazing game!

[@tstanrinatsirt]

haven't watched yet but I know workshop master race 💪💪

[@LemonCake101]

Workshop my beloved, but there is some TOUGH competition out today

[@FalkyRocket2222]

seeing the naval stuff be so useless will never make me not upset and even more since naval history is the most interesting part of eu4's time period for me, completely fair rating for them but man good video also

[@LemonCake101]

A sadness we share, boat cool. Thanks!

[@bm8985]

It's always fun to see what people with DLC get to play with.

[@LemonCake101]

Full discloser I am not making any money off this suggestion but if you are on steam, consider the $5 1 month subscription, to try it out, and then do the classic humble bundle or big sail to buy all of them. I remember using that method pre subscription to get all the DLC's for around $30 total when they where on sale (and in fairness I have bought the last 6 full price on release, but then again I spend way too long playing Eu4)

[@rensvopstal]

Congrats on 10k subs! your content is amazing and you deserve them all and more!

[@LemonCake101]

Thank you, appreciate it, and working on it!

[@DANTE71927]

You can build ramparts on mountain forts now, they reverted this change in one of the patches.

[@LemonCake101]

Yeah I found out from the comments, that obviously bumps them up the rankings!

[@Ugapiku]

Mooom Lemon Cake dropped another banger!

[@LemonCake101]

Enjoy!

[@Munchausenification]

if forts could deal with rebels, give suppression or triggered modifier like: 25% of dev is fortified so you get some army quality modifier it would make them more interesting

[@LemonCake101]

Could be something interesting to explore, but Venice's 20% dev cost on forts is a touch too strong imo.

[@craserx6267]

@@LemonCake101 netherlands get 5% dev cost on forts and jumps to 10% if you complete defensive ideas, but that is half of venice's 20%. thats huge lol

[@RjTT1]

Thanks for the images with description

[@LemonCake101]

Glad you enjoyed!

[@evanc32]

Can confirm, Ramparts + Mage Tower Dwarven Holds are the most painful thing to siege in existence. You can also build them in caverns as well to make every inch of land inside the mountains painful. +3 dice roll net diceroll advantage from the province is insane as well.

[@LemonCake101]

Yeah, it got removed in Vanilla too. Ramparts are a hell of a drug

[@LaborikPravdberg-jy4zl]

Marketplaces can be used for increasing the provincial trade power in trade company provinces, thus giving more goods produced in non-trade company provinces.

[@LemonCake101]

In that specific build, yes actually. I just assumed it was a lot more niche then people let on.

[@LibertyMonk]

Anbennar Ramparts: Anbennar decided they didn't want that balance change. You can totally build ramparts in Holds, Mountains, Caves, etc. Gor Burad (and a few others) actually have a way to add +1 die roll for defender if you invest into a province in your home region, so you can get +2 for defender added to the -2 attacker terrain, giving you an insane 4 pip advantage. Then you can mix in the Dwarven Monuments submod which is absolutely broken and gives a monument in every hold, making the holds silly to attempt to siege.

[@LemonCake101]

I have been informed by other comments that Paradox reverted that change, so yeah Ramparts should be a lot higher from that in fairness.

[@tobias7043mils]

Understand shipyards but, docks there is some nations which get very good marines or where marines can be used as a second manpower pool, there docks can be good or atleast c-tier Marketplaces can also be used in trade company provinces to increase the % modifier for trade goods

[@aluminiumknight4038]

Your talk about naval batteries reminded me of my first game as Portugal, i was REALLY stressed out by the morrocan raids and invested All i have in naval batteries 😂

[@LemonCake101]

That's an incredible new person play, I have never heard of anyone doing that!

[@aluminiumknight4038]

@@LemonCake101 it was one of my first trials

[@LemonCake101]

@@aluminiumknight4038 well, welcome to the game!

[@aluminiumknight4038]

@@LemonCake101 haha thx it's been 3-4 years and now I rarely play but i enjoy youtube content

[@JK-qi7pp]

Thank you so much for taking audio listeners into consideration on videos where it is possible! It's great to have something like this when doing chores. Also wanted to mention that regimental camps have the 'Growth of regimental towns' event associated with it. So even if you are totally good on force limit, you should always build one. Similar how you should always have at least one high development province without university for the diet that gives you 35 points of each category.

[@LemonCake101]

No worries, I wouldn't want to ignore any of my viewers! I knew about the 'Growth of Regimental Towns' event but good to know about the 35 point of each diet, I was not actually aware that required a no uni high dev province (I mean looking back it makes a lot of sense)

[@flazzorb]

Townships give a node wide _province_ trade value bonus. If you dominate a node you should always make townships for the trade/production income.

[@LemonCake101]

Yes, but trade steering is the way you make the 'integer overflow' kind of money.

[@GyaruRespecter]

Some of those buildings really should have their own slots that don't block out any of the others. Docks, shipyards and even ramparts would be not unforgivable if they were money-sinks that you can invest in without thinking about it if you want an edge that *could* be useful eventually rather than something locking the way of workshops.

[@LemonCake101]

That certainly would be a good buff for them, although if you make every building give building slots, well just remove the building slot mechanic at that point.

[@GyaruRespecter]

@@LemonCake101 Even with certain buildings having their own slots, you'd still have to pick between the others. No one ever had to pick between docks and workshops, but choosing whether to build a manufactory or a training field is always relevant.

[@chriswarburtonbrown1566]

Interesting video which I enjoyed. However a lot of your ratings depend on playstyle, nation choice and game goals. I rate buildings that boost production above those that boost army size as for me money is more powerful than men.

[@cathulionetharn5139]

1.town hall is EVEN better that courthouse because it reduces province governing cost by a percentage and that means every percentage point is mor valuable 2.not something that changes the tier list but rennaissance is basically guaranteed 5% construvion cost reduction and it is so early most building are unlocked after you have it 3.production efficiency, goods produced and to an extent dev cost reductions scale up wit individual province trade good value (technically so do trade buildings in trade centers), while temples are stable 4.shipyards let you have more naval force limit which lets you mass galleys instead of heavy ships for less upkeep cost, they are also faster (but not as fast as trade ships) 5."technically" naval defense prevents piracy, which causes devastation and removes prosperity, still not worth it 6.there is an edge case use for manufactories and that is if you are close to production leader but can't easily take more in war, 10% trade good production is pretty good 7.mills is made worse by the fact it competes in manufactory slot with state house, 1 trade good of porcelain isn't worth an additional 40 dev of stated land

[@LemonCake101]

Oh yeah, don't get me wrong construction cost stacking good.

[@phileascurtil5605]

State house is not with porcelaine. Its only with Gems, Paper and Glass. I'm starting to use State Houses and I dev to 15, expand infrastructure and build both a State house and a manufactury. I end up with states costing me between 1 and 6 GC with only courthouses and not townhall.

[@LemonCake101]

@@phileascurtil5605 I mean the expand infra is also quite bad for gov cost for sure, but yeah I personally dev to 20 for the build slot, and then more if/when I run out of room to dev

[@phileascurtil5605]

@@LemonCake101 for gems etc it's entirely negated by the state house and if it's not on gems, it's only +5 GC and +5% so not that bad for a good increase

[@stephengray1344]

@@phileascurtil5605 It's not entirely negated on gems etc. You can only build one state house in a state, and there are some states which have more than one province which produces a state house good.

[@hoctongac8994]

Love the new detail information for the tier list

[@LemonCake101]

Glad you enjoyed!

[@Hadar1991]

As purely single player man I don't find military buildings useful. They would be most useful in the 1440s, but after the initial expansion I have enough of economy to defend myself and I build net of alliances. And if I have money I would still prefer to build production and trade building to growth the economy further. And I would I ever want to take military hegemony instead of economic one in SP?

[@LemonCake101]

When I said SP ranking, I was assuming World Conquest tryhard runs. If you are just chilling in Eu4, you don't need any of the buffs, well from any of the buildings, so the rankings become pointless.

[@phileascurtil5605]

I'm not that good at EU4 but I can't fully agree with your analyse. I think you should take in account when you unlock the building. For example courthouses are unlocked early when you may really struggle with gouverning capacity. Imo townhall is equal or below courthouse because as you said the game is almost over or you have other ways to reduce governing capacity. Shipyard is situational, it's useful when you have a short coast but still want to have a decent fleet or when you want to repair your fleet quickly to harass the ennemy.

[@LemonCake101]

I like to think I did. I mean pure power wise counting houses are insane, with 100% prod efficiency, but where ranked lower then workshops and most other buildings: and I did talk about tech quite a lot regarding unlock time. Basically, I feel like I did take into account time when you unlock?

[@phileascurtil5605]

Yes you did but I feel like you underastimated it. It's quite pretentious from me to say that as I have way less experience than you but it's still my opinion. I'm being influcenced by my ongoing game but I would put the townhall in A and put the courthouse in S. My reflexion is: "Is this building mandatory to build when I unlock it?". S tiers is "you should always have it in every possible (or useful) province and A tiers is in some common situation or in certain builds it's a very good building. In the cas of courthouses it's absolutely yes so S for me. In cas of the townhall it's yes but less necessary as you have some ways to not use it and still manage to go with it so A tiers. Counting houses as you said are just too late for their power so B is perfectly fine. When you are able to build them you should already be filthy rich. Another thing: I can still build remparts in mountains in my current game so I don't know if it's a bug or it has been reversed. All my fortline has remparts even in mountains.

[@LemonCake101]

@@phileascurtil5605 the rampart nerf was reversed and I was unaware: yeah they are really good and should be used. As for the building unlock it’s a subjective list at the end of the day, and well I do play quite a bit later then most. I find myself not struggling with gov cap too much in the early game, and by late game town halls are there to make it trivial hence the ranking.

[@uhhhhhschizobros]

Race tier list next please!

[@LemonCake101]

Can't make a tier list of something that doesn't exist

[@AmirSatt]

1. Mario kart 2. Blur 3. Need for speed 4. Gran Turismo

[@DecayingSpammer]

Banger

[@taishi-sama-tfc]

Aren't trade buildings actually better because 20% of provincial trade power goes in nodes upstream? So, for example, you can spam a lot of trade building in English Channel and then have pretty good trade power in neighboring nodes. Not like this is really so much or so strong, but at least helps you to secure trade in still unconquered trade nodes

[@LemonCake101]

Yes. But it 'wastes' a building slot, and it is usually cheaper to just expand into those areas instead.

[@niluscvp]

I like building a continues coast of shipyards so its built faster when I queue up a new fleet, but yeah they aint good unless you specifically use that forcelimit to make a larger trade fleet and havent conquered enough yet to dominate trade income with provinces alone.

[@LemonCake101]

I mean yeah, I see it, but its just a better idea to just... conquer the land.

[@TheGeorg1236]

Unlike land attrition, AI actually respects naval attrition, so I kinda disagree on Naval Battery in singleplayer. Then you are playing on land and get acsess to sea tiles, you need a lot of money in order to secure naval superority. Also, you need to fill you naval force limit with galleys or heavies, instead of building more light ship for more money. But why wasting all that resources you can invest into more land or economy, then you can just build one Naval Battery in provinces that border 2 or more sea tiles? Once tech 14, you don't have to upgrade it. You don't have to micro it. You don't have to care about navy tradtion and reroll admirals. You don't have to spend more money on ships, then naval width increases. Overall, one building lets you completly ignore naval side of the game (I agree with your critics about it's depth btw), unless you want to conquer some island. Which is not happening so often. Naval battery is solid C tier.

[@LemonCake101]

I mean eventually if you are going to WC, you will need a navy, so don't waste building slots on Naval batteries when you can just build one of those and win: that's my approach in SP anyway.

[@hanneswiggenhorn2023]

I think forts can be very situational and depend on your countries strategical situation. Without them as France for example, it's practically impossible to fight a war against any European nation + Spain simultaneously, which can make mid game conquest into the HRE very difficult, but 2 max (for your tech) level forts buy you all the time you need to deal with arriving spanish troops

[@LemonCake101]

Yeah, I would say when you get bigger they become more and more necessary as a general rule

[@Ragatokk]

Naval force limit will give you money from trade ships or make it cheaper for you to go above the cap, navy is already expensive. Think your completely wrong on those buildings, they are definitely A. Sailors can be used for manpower, but still don't think they break out of C as they scale worse than manpower. Marketplace can be pretty strong for increasing your trade companies goods produced modifier for the other provinces you have in the node.

[@LemonCake101]

But what does that navy achieve that taking that land over doesn't? You do need a navy for taking over say the spice islands, but owning India is going give you a lot more boat FL/Sailors then you need for those purposes: its basically never worth investing in it whether you play for a WC or a decent MP.

[@Ragatokk]

​@@LemonCake101 Too bad you can't instantly take over everything you want. For naval FL: You can use trade ships to damage others economy while boosting your own trough piracy, trade steering and protecting trade. Or if you need to build up a massive navy for a huge player war, it saves you a TON of money. For sailors: Some nations get marines, 5th government reform amphibious specialization, or otherwise picking naval (or the niche maritime) lets you use sailors as manpower. Are you saying you have no use for manpower, money or your enemies to have less money?

[@LemonCake101]

@@Ragatokk I mean... you can? The current WR for a full WC is 1472, and there is an Ottoman save with 70% of the world done in 1466, with a 1470 projected finish. What I guess I mean with that is, at no point has investing in a navy been the optimal way of achieving your goals.

[@LemonCake101]

@@Ragatokk As for enemies having less manpower/money, that can again be achieved... by making your enemies not exist a lot more effectively then by annoying them with trade ships. Believe me I have played a decent chunk of MP games with naval trolling, and well, its that at best: trolling. You win everything navaly sure but you get deleted on land so you afk in the water and they afk on land. And on top of being not very effective, I also don't find that... fun?

[@Ragatokk]

@@LemonCake101 Never argued it was an optimal use of money, I just said it was not useless.

[@noahsmith170]

Hi this is my first video of yours, great job. What is this about ranking every single province in the game? Wouldn't ranking different terrain types, trade nodes, and great works projects in separate videos do the exact same thing with triple the add revenue for you?

[@LemonCake101]

Please no, and welcome to the meme.

[@Nerazmus]

I disagree about Marketplaces. While, yes, the best way to control trade is to conquer the world, the vast majority of games are not world conquest games. So it makes sense to increase your Trade Power to propagate it and get more trade that way. I'd say B for sure. It's not a build in all provinces building, but just build it in your high trade power provinces.

[@LemonCake101]

So I clearly need to mention this in the disclaimers again, but for the ranking to make sense I have to assume you are going for a SP WC tryhard run. If you are not doing that, the ranking is inherently pointless, because in a RP campaign you will build a marketplace regardless if it provides 50% trade power, 200% trade power or 3% trade power: you are playing in a non-competitive environment. Which is fine, more then fine actually: but it also means that ranking things is pointless within that domain. I mention this in the other tier lists, and I didn't do it here today so I guess that is on me.

[@Nerazmus]

@@LemonCake101 Fair point. But even then, unless you are a god of micro, you aren't going to be expanding in all directions at once. Might be worth to build them in colonial nodes while you wait for someone to colonise the new world for you :D

[@LemonCake101]

@@Nerazmus I mean for SP... pause and do the micro. I mean if you cba, fair enough, but then you can't claim tryhard run.

[@justsomerat1493]

Really impressive video. I cant believe it only took you 44 minutes to go over the massive quantity of buildings

[@LemonCake101]

Thanks!

[@DethmourneSilvermane]

I like temples early in SP when Catholic for the +3 pope bucks

[@the_tarific9693]

I like the list, just feel like marketplace could go B maybe low A tier for most parts of Europe and the Far East. Also they can be helpful to get additional merchants in trade companys. Also for me Trade Depots could be C Tier for similar reasons, obviously both have less impact if you go for World Domination but to get you started they help alot. But again i really like the tier list overall!

[@LemonCake101]

Regarding the trade company trade value % goods produced thing, clearly by the comments a bunch of you guys do you use, in which case fair enough, but I consider that quite niche. Furthermore, it can still be done even without the marketplace, the marketplace just gives it a little bump. As for their upgrade: too late into the game for me to be impactful. By that point, your trade really should be sorted.

[@dakapo8985]

I build marketplace in Ivory coast & Zanzibar for example if i am a "weak" european colonizer who can't really invade and conquer the node YET but i still want that extra merchant early.

[@LemonCake101]

I guess that is a fair exception.

[@mateusaraujo7531]

16:04 Me seeing lemon cake put shipyard and docks in D tier after my gameplay as GB where I built a trade fleet for the majority of the trade node and I had to spam docks even in my colonial nations in order to have sailors for the marines:

[@LemonCake101]

I literally mentioned GB games as an exception! But yeah... even then a better England trade strategy is just a WC.

[@Phantom-mg5cg]

I would put the dock in C tier, sometimes I have sailor shortages for my huge trade fleets and my fighting fleets.

[@LemonCake101]

I guess if you really do, then fair, but I personally don't really encounter those issues, and they are best overcome with more conquest anyway imo.

[@siegechamp2295]

42:35 It's arithmetic overflow

[@LemonCake101]

It is, but I think the community refers to it as 'money stack overflowing' hence I parroted it.

[@mrendermun]

About your question on Ramparts(Anbennar Question). Since dwarf holds/surface holds are able to have ramparts

[@LemonCake101]

Yup, also the nerf was revoked so they can be built everywhere again!

[@minilutherundseinefreunde3802]

Shipyards should be higher because you can get a lot of Ducats in early to mid game by using lightships, especially as a tradernation like Holland

[@LemonCake101]

... but you can get even more by just taking over the enemies. In fact it is usually cheaper to kill them then to invest in a trade fleet.

[@matthijs4661]

You did not consider the effect Light Ships can have for your economy, and how shipyards help with having more light ships.

[@gordyhowitzer]

I don't pay Multiplayer, but for me I always prioritize gov cap, production+trade, tax, manpower/sailors, and finally force limit (and forts in strategic areas). To me, workshops are far more valuable than temples in nearly every circumstance, because if you're controlling an end node or pseudo end node, you get the value of your production again as trade income, and if you aren't controlling your trade node, that should be your number one priority anyway.

[@LemonCake101]

No for sure, absolutely. Temples have -5% dev cost though, and can get up to 73% tax with privileges (which also stacks really well with the first age 50% tax policy)

[@Ozde1999]

Future me, are furnaces and universities S tier?

[@LemonCake101]

You know me too well

[@Jean-BaptisteLebrun]

Hi Lemon Cake. Thanks for this great video. I have a question about trade power so with marketplaces as we deal about buildings here. Your point is that trade power doesn't create new money and value but as EU4 is a competitive game against your rivals and other nations, I would think that it's still interesting to have a bigger share for yourself even if the (Lemon) cake doesn't grow. You have a little more money and your opponents have less. I would think that sometimes it's even better than having more fresh money but your opponents too. I understand that at some point in Single player, you should be able to have the full control of trade nodes with all provinces. But as conquest is not unlimited, especially early game, I guess it can often be useful to focus on COT or estuaries with marketplaces in some compétitive nodes. When I play in single player, I always feel that marketplaces are the first and best buildings that gives me some air with money whereas temples and workshops have a long payback time. Am I that wrong ?

[@LemonCake101]

To be clear you are not wrong in how they work, but the same effect of more trade power for you and less for the enemy is equally achieved by... conquering the enemy. It is cheaper, and comes with more benefits.

[@osiris3676]

i love your tier lists

[@LemonCake101]

Thanks!

[@Speedster___]

Worship counting houses are the best. Only manufacture I use is state house

[@LemonCake101]

Consider the others, they can really be quite strong!

[@Speedster___]

@@LemonCake101not huge into TC and so I just spam court houses and worships. Workshops just scale the best and due to time money good in that regard as well

[@LemonCake101]

@@Speedster___ yeah fair, I mean workshops certainly carry a lot, but town halls+state houses do let you full core the world...

[@Gabriel82622]

Is military hegemony that important still after the nerfs? You can only get it so late and the heavy investment into regimental camps, most of the time ill just go eco

[@LemonCake101]

You can def get it by 1550, late 1500s if you really gun for it, so I would say its worth it personally.

[@Jean-BaptisteLebrun]

Thanks you Lemon Cake for your great content. Yet I have a small criticism to do. As a non-native english listener, there are almost some parts in each video I can't understand. You are speaking pretty fast and the sound quality is sometimes a bit hard (maybe beacause of your microphone ?). If you can pay some attention to this little issue, it would be more than perfect. Thanks again

[@LemonCake101]

Yeah the microphone, I have been battling for a while. Thank you for the support, I hope to make it clearer and I do keep fiddling with it.

[@Makem12]

The temple and cathedral should give -1 unrest and -2 unrest respectively in addition to the tax modifier.

[@LemonCake101]

Could be a decent buff to them tbh

[@Makem12]

Have I posted enough comments for your community engagement to hit maximum levels yet 😉? But seriously this channel deserves more attention than it gets.

[@LemonCake101]

Thanks, but AFAIK the engagement metric is 1 per person, so one comment or 10 is the same to prevent people basically abusing it by using alts. Appreciate the sentiment though!

[@Makem12]

​@@LemonCake101Darn. I'll have to start collecting all my thoughts into one big comment for your videos then. Keep up the good work

[@theorixlux]

I use this as background noise when watching your other videos on mute.

[@LemonCake101]

Genius, the double Lemon Cake viewer!

[@TheRealXartaX]

I've 7600 hours in singleplayer. This is my rankings: S: Workshop, Courthouse, Goods Manufactories, Forts A: Town Hall, Temple, Counting House, State House, Soldier's Households B: University, Barracks, Training Fields, Furnace C: Cathedral, Regimental Camp, Conscription Center, Marketplace, Trade Depot, Rampart D: Dock, Drydock, Stock Exchange, E: Shipyard, Grand Shipyard, Coastal Defense, Naval Battery, Impressment Offices Logic is simply that if I were to lose complete access to a building, I'd rather lose access to something of a lower tier than a higher tier

[@LemonCake101]

For sure a very SP tier list, and in fairness I agree for SP. There is a lot less weight on army buildings, furnace eco etc then in a list with MP included.

[@TheRealXartaX]

@@LemonCake101 Army buildings tend to get build in clusters around areas focused around army (well manpower, anyways. Reg camps can go anywhere with slots). So for example a level 3 landlocked trade center with soldier's households and a training field and you spend a bunch of mil to dev mil up there. It's not like workshops and manufactories that get spammed everywhere.

[@LemonCake101]

@@TheRealXartaX I mean in MP, you basically do spam the manpower everywhere in fairness.

[@TheRealXartaX]

@@LemonCake101 I don't have multiplayer experience really. But that does seem like a waste of ducats to me unless you're playing something where expanding is extremely difficult. Like everyone playing a Japanese Daimyo or something. Of course it'll be more important than SP since a player is more likely to jump in your weakness than the AI, but spamming it everywhere seems more likely to cause a weakness due to very poor returns in low manpower provinces.

[@LemonCake101]

@@TheRealXartaX well, the issue is more if your not doing that you are dying to someone who is, late game wars you are losing insane troop counts (last late game war was 7 mil vs 13mil casualties) and well you need manpower and FL to fight those wars.

[@Makem12]

When are we going to get an eu4 modifiers tier list?

[@LemonCake101]

Please no

[@DethmourneSilvermane]

Marketplace is good for Castile since it lets you steal more trade from your PUs

[@sandayyyy]

you cant take trade power from pu…

[@stephenbernard3003]

Shipyards are great. They give you the ability to build more light ships and make more money. Especially if you have a limited coastline like northern Germany. The other thing is if you play on very hard. The number of ships the AI have is excessive so you need the shipyards to even the odds.

[@LemonCake101]

In fairness, I don't play on very hard, but I have to say, with shipyards, I feel like if you invested that money into conquest of the trade regions, you would do a lot better money wise etc. If you are artificially stopping your own expansion for larp/neat borders then sure, but then that's a 'what is more fun ranking' which isn't really possible to discuss.

[@heliogonzalezsanchez8227]

They are also good if you need to face another nation with a lot of ships and you don't have a lot of naval force limit

[@stephenbernard3003]

@@LemonCake101 lots of things change at very hard. The game can actually be hard. I can’t think of any nation that would be actually difficult on normal difficulty.

[@LemonCake101]

@@stephenbernard3003 I mean I personally prefer xorme AI over VH for making SP challenging, since VH I feel is just stat buffs: the AI remains stupid and exploitable.

[@Zackary1005]

I have built mountain ramparts as Savoy recently! With the Expand fortifications privilege and all the defensive ideas and govt reform. Love melting French manpower 😎

[@LemonCake101]

Yeah, they reverted the ramparts change, so they should be a lot higher on the list!

[@Phantom-mg5cg]

33:40 That‘s indeed a huge nerf.

[@LemonCake101]

So much so you will be please to hear they reversed it!

[@martinkovar4323]

Are univesities really that good for SP? By the time you get them you have already embraced 3 institutions and global trade and manus have sources of provincial growth. Enlightenment and MP are good points tho, I am not denying that.

[@LemonCake101]

Pretty much, I mean I do dev in SP more then the average person, but yeah no in a pure SP ranking no where near S, or even A/B tier.

[@RobsRedHotSpot]

It's always driven me nuts how Paradox games fail to model the importance of navies. The most powerful countries in the entire time period were naval powers, not land powers. A strong navy takes a piss poor country like Portugal and turns it to an international powerhouse. A weak navy takes a rich land power like France and turns it into a regional sideshow. Blockades brought continent-spanning empires to their knees in a matter of weeks and months while million-strong armies starved.

[@pagatryx5451]

All it takes is A) a better trade system with emphasis on naval routes. And more importantly B) Not millions of automatic loans to cover your army. Money as a whole is just not a

[@marcustulliuscicero5443]

You build marketplaces to squeeze a bit more goods produced in the trade node out of your TCs

[@LemonCake101]

Regarding the trade company trade value % goods produced thing, clearly by the comments a bunch of you guys do you use, in which case fair enough, but I consider that quite niche. Furthermore, it can still be done even without the marketplace, the marketplace just gives it a little bump.

[@eternal2261]

my goat hits 10k subs easy PEASY

[@LemonCake101]

Believe it I am working on it!

[@alexandersen1987]

Yo he actually did it

[@LemonCake101]

Enjoy!

[@ThaPinkGuy]

I appreciate you taking the time to rank some of the buildings, but there are a few important factors for constructing these buildings that you didn't mention. A general criticism: the majority of EU4 players are casual players. Less than 5% of the player base plays multiplayer, and less than 2.5% have ever conquered the world. Even if you doubled that to account for non-ironman players, that's still less than 5% of players. The reason someone would come to this kind of video is that they are struggling to improve their economy or don't quite know what to build. Providing some sort of "rule of thumb" that most players use and explaining why they use it would have been really beneficial. There are multiplayer strategies as well as single-player min-maxing techniques, so explaining the difference would also be insightful. For example, you spent nearly 3 minutes talking about temples but didn't give a practical example of when to build them and how they pay for themselves. You build temples early even if you plan on replacing them later because they can pay for themselves in around 80 years if you stick to the 0.1 ducats rule. So, even if you do replace them later, you've gotten your ducats' worth out of them. Barracks, for a less obvious example, increase max manpower, which increases recovery. In a 10 manpower development province, instead of gaining 208 manpower a month, you'd get 312 manpower a month just from that one province. A rule of thumb for that can simply be: whatever the barracks adds, divide that by 10, and you get that amount every month in manpower. Yes, it is a rough estimate, but it gives you an idea of the building's value. Building shipyards early allows you to cycle your navy, enabling you to punch above your weight. As you mentioned, the AI doesn't tend to upgrade its ships. Instead of spending 1k+ to build a bigger navy beyond your force limit, having some strategic shipyards means you can beat the Ottomans' 100+ galleys with 20 heavies in the Mediterranean throughout a war. Marketplaces (less so with trade depots and even less with stock exchanges) increase trade power in the node, which leads to some of that power going to the previous node through trade propagation. 20% of your trade goes to the previous node above 10 trade power. Building a marketplace in trade centres increases your trade power by so much that you not only gain 5-10 trade power in the node you build it in but 1-2 in the previous node. Yes, that amount is small, but it does increase the value of the building. This also applies to trade company merchants, which again wasn't mentioned. Universities are as good as the area you put them in. Placing them in a core area you know you'll develop makes sense. It's one of the few buildings you'd ignore the macro builder for, as you need to know where you'll develop in the future based on trade goods and local development. If you never develop there, it becomes a dead building that does nothing. Universities have the potential to be the best building in the game or the worst, depending on who builds them, where, and why.

[@LemonCake101]

So the issue with that, is while you are correct, if you play the game for SP sitting around, a tier list makes no sense. Because if you are not playing 'optimally for a WC' then the stats don't really matter, you do what is fun. If you are playing a tall game as a the Netherlands where you build every building, you will build a marketplace whether it gives +100% trade power or +50% or literally nothing, because you are building every building. Is there a wrong/right way to play? No. But it also means I can't really rank 'fun'. It's only an objective ranking if there is a clear goal, like MP where you need to tryhard the best country, or SP world conquests. Otherwise, everything can be ranked into a subjective 'fun' category. Normally I cover that in the disclaimers at the start of the video, but I know the audience retention stats, I know you guys skip those :P.

[@ThaPinkGuy]

​@@LemonCake101 I apologize for not making my point clearer. I didn't suggest altering your list; I was suggesting including a little more detail or practical examples of how the buildings function and why someone should build them. Regarding audience retention, my focus isn't on that aspect, but since you mentioned it, I'll address it. Videos like this are excellent for attracting new viewers because they have a broad appeal beyond your regular audience. This type of content serves as an entry point for general viewers, including new and casual players who are looking for practical advice and tips. By providing detailed explanations and practical examples, you can demonstrate your deep understanding of the game and engage a wider audience. This not only helps newcomers improve their gameplay but also showcases your expertise and charisma, encouraging them to explore more of your content. As a result, you can build a stronger following and establish a reputation as a knowledgeable and approachable content creator. Incorporating a bit more detail and practical advice in your videos can significantly enhance their value to viewers. For instance, explaining the benefits of buildings like barracks with simple math can help players understand their impact better. This approach makes your content more informative and accessible, increasing the likelihood that new viewers will return for more insights and tips. Ultimately, by catering to the needs of both new and experienced players, you can expand your audience and foster a loyal community around your channel.

[@LemonCake101]

@@ThaPinkGuy no fair thank you for being polite. Regarding the 'extra information' I have to be careful, because I know I tend to cultivate a pretty tryhard audience too, and explaining how marketplaces work is pretty redundant for people like that. It's always a balancing game. Regarding new people/audience retention etc, I merely mentioned that because I like looking at the graphs, I mean conceptually mass appeal and 1 hour deep dives in Eu4 mechanics are pretty self-contradictory concepts.

[@martinkovar4323]

I am pretty sure you can still build ramparts on mountains.

[@LemonCake101]

Yeah, they reverted that patch!

[@electricVGC]

Shipyards in single player are high C tier because trace money infinite But you shouldn't ever use it for an offensive fleet

[@LemonCake101]

I mean trade fleet... better to just show up with your army and take the land.

[@designermetal1]

Wait... marketplaces are bad?

[@LemonCake101]

Yes

[@designermetal1]

@@LemonCake101 Where were you with this information 1800hrs of playtime ago?

[@LemonCake101]

@@designermetal1 my apologies, but I guess you have to play another 10k hours now!

[@justdoitlater9507]

are you sure that ramparts can only be built on flat terrain? pretty sure that all you need is an open manufactury building slot.

[@LemonCake101]

Used to be the case, but they changed it as a nerf :(

[@evancarlson5805]

No way is this for both single and multi player if temple is on the same tier as workshop.

[@aflamesoul9598]

in the end, the always correct answer is " it depends..."

[@LemonCake101]

Well, sometimes. Don't build Naval Batteries

[@g.ricepad9470]

Having seen all the naval ones in D, I now realize you never made a stacking naval modifiers video

[@LemonCake101]

I did make a naval video, which lets just say I can see the analytics, and you guys didn't watch.

[@jacob2389]

​@@LemonCake101I did! And I appreciated it for my naval Iceland game.

[@g.ricepad9470]

@@LemonCake101 Bruh, I really haven’t seen it either in recommended or even when browsing your channel

[@LemonCake101]

@@g.ricepad9470 kzbin.info/www/bejne/l5bLqomrhqx8m68 enjoy!

[@LemonCake101]

@@jacob2389 ah nice!

[@realityisenough]

I don't understand this idea of "not devving" in single player. I have 4000 hours in EU4 and maybe only 5 in MP, and I dev all the time for all sorts of reasons...

[@LemonCake101]

I mean I dev in SP, but soooooo many people don't and I have to be somewhat reflective of that reality.

[@primarchvulkan4013]

Will we get a subject types tier list?

[@LemonCake101]

Maybe? Who knows

[@СаняХацуне]

Played as russia and the humble shipyard is a life saver

[@LemonCake101]

... just conquer coastlines man!

[@Zwerggoldhamster]

Did they reenable building ramparts in mountains?

[@LemonCake101]

Yup

[@domehammer]

The fact AI just doesn't take naval attrition... I hate it, I hate it so much. It's lost me games before.