The Complicated Climax of Bayonetta 3

[@sev1120]

Bayonetta got killed for Luka's development She got fridged IN THE FRANCHISE NAMED AFTER HER

[@PitterPomCB]

Something I hate is how that credits song is genuinely so beautiful and passionate and a love letter to what people love about this character… and they attached it to an ending that was very much NOT that.

[@abdelali9279]

57:39 and then Kamiya left Platinum leaving the Bayonetta series as torn as his underwear.

[@Spookybluelights]

Can I also add that the tone was so weirdly serious throughout? I would have been fine with the multiverse story if said story was about Bayo teaming up with herself to kick butt. But because weapons and demons have to come from her counterpoints all we do is have Bayo witness herself die every couple hours. It's weirdly grim and there's not enough fun, campy moments to balance it out. Also Singularity is beyond a doubt the most boring villain ever. Like, what the hell is even his motivation? And unpopular opinion: the Jeanne stealth sections were the most "Bayonetta" parts of the game. They were ridiculous, campy and Jeanne delivered on all the effortless cool that the Bayo we played as lacked. And even then Jeanne was just tossed aside. (⁠┛⁠◉⁠Д⁠◉⁠)⁠┛⁠彡⁠┻⁠━⁠┻ Ugh, this game left such a bad taste in my mouth. Thank you for making me feel vindicated in that.

[@jondoe7036]

While I personally liked the stealth sections fine enough, I kind of got to agree with what Woolie pointed out about them, that it's a gameplay style that doesn't really suit characters like Bayo or Jeanne and seems almost more tailor-made for someone like Luka, who (not taking into account his new werewolf-form) isn't strong enough to take threats like the homonculi head on and thus him needing to stealth around avoiding direct confrontation in a base filled with them would make more sense.

[@Val17282]

​@@jondoe7036 I also thought about Luka being in the stealth segments instead. While he can't fight Homunculi head on, he could lay some traps to impede and/or distract them.

[@Pumpkin_3890]

Especially the Cutie J sequence! Justice for Jeanne

[@litbit6754]

LITTERALLYY what made Bayonetta so fun is that she playful and taunts enemies and she barely did that and even if she did singularitys monsters aren't even sentient

[@FentySeroquel]

You are not alone, friend. This game made me legitimately sad. I've never been fine with throwing away a Bayonetta game case until now.

[@lsdxiii]

To your last point on Platinum's "growing pains", I think that removes a HELLUVA lotta context on why they're so adamant about live service games and why they've been fumbling the last few years. Platinum is utterly DESPERATE to remain an independent studio, so much so they want to tap into the cash cow that is the live service market to make enough money to fund themselves.

[@TessThe5th]

Honestly, Platinum as a studio has been as inconsistent as their games recently with claiming that they want to be independent only to then back around the acquisition "festival" last year, suddenly state they're opened to be bought by a company (as long as they keep their freedom which I don't see that likely happening lol). Real talk, I don't think Platinum has a fucking clue about what they want to do other than attempt to strike it gold with a live service game.

[@bearerofbadnews1375]

It just makes me happy at E3 a game called Soulstice came along. It’s a decent devil may cry clone with its own interesting mechanics. I had more fun with that than Babylons fall.

[@werwolfnate]

"We're desperate to stay an independent studio! Quick! Do everything that studios we don't want to be owned by do!

[@peen2804]

@@werwolfnatethat’s a pretty black and white view of things lol

[@lupinthenerd439]

"They've been fumblimg the last few years" The last few years: Niet automata Bayo 3 (despite it's problems, it's still good ) Do you research bro?

[@razieldumas]

When Luca came back at the end he absolutely should've said something like "Don't you know? I'm too stupid to die!"

[@jtlego1]

Dude bamboozled *GOD* in the last game. You think he'd know to lean into it by that point.

[@rionofbahamut9751]

Everyone knows the Comic Relief is too powerful to truly die, at most its a gag they are playing on the reaper and are just waiting for them to slip on a banana peel so they can return back to reality

[@didodkdk]

😂 imagine

[@mettatonneoex]

​​@@jtlego1Luka: you'll never see me coming Cereza (B3): Learn from his example Viola, get back up again even if you look like a fool it's worth trying

[@thebrush9506]

@@mettatonneoexdoubting that’d be the exact phrasing that Cereza would say to Viola, it feel like in her own way, Cereza would imply that to Viola which would’ve fit

[@jtlego1]

BY JUBILEUS THANK YOU FOR FINALLY PINNING DOWN WHAT BUGGED ME ABOUT THE HOMUNCULI. The fact that they don't react as much to getting clowned on by Bayo means that so much of the finishers/cutscenes just don't have the same suave/oomph/humor that the previous games do. And I'll just say as an aside, as someone who *did* ship Bayonetta and Luka, this games attempt to gas it up for stakes/drama was fucking absurd even for me. Striders cool tho, he can stay.

[@didodkdk]

I agree sometimes I play through levels just to find the angel segments and fight them humonculi get boring quick

[@lolrus5555]

I hear that last point. I also enjoyed the Bayo/Luka ship, but preferred it when Luka was still the lovable bumblefuck that had some amusing, flirtful chemistry with Bayo, not when he's... whatever the fuck happened here.

[@thebrush9506]

I would’ve loved if the speed bag homunculus (I forgor the name) tried running away while getting brutally beat or chased down by an infernal demon in their first introduction. It would’ve been so fitting

[@umbrawatch4973]

One thing you said that really stuck with me for this was the lack of an expanding ability set for Viola. I had never even considered that when I was trying to figure out why i liked her so much less (Besides the awful story they tried to slot her into). Rodin is a demon blacksmith, the Infinite One! you're telling me he saw this kid with a single sword and magical darts and was like 'yeah she's fine.'

[@scalicali8073]

It really made it feel like Viola was a last minute addition to the game

[@umbrawatch4973]

@@scalicali8073 like imagine during the adventures Viola's grappling hook breaks and she talks to Rodin about it and he fixes it up into a badass whip for her to yank enemies off balance with?? That would've been such a nice way to combine her heritage in the gameplay and thats just off the top of my head. You could've even had a gag moment where Viola accidentally cuts herself trying to do a cool flourish like Bayo does when she gets G-Pillar and now she has a physical scar for the rest of the game to remind her.

[@DinoDave150]

@@umbrawatch4973 That alone would have significantly expanded Viola's combat options and the whip could have served as her Devil Buster of sorts.

[@jtlego1]

It's even weirder because they obviously seem to be setting up some sort of mentor dynamic between Viola and Rodin, so what better way to establish that by having Rodin make her some new weapons or refine her old ones?

[@umbrawatch4973]

@@jtlego1 ohhh imagine collecting materials to upgrade Mab Dachi like Nero's Devil Breaker! Steel from China, Prayer Beads from Japan, a Jewel from Paris

[@Catspirit123]

The ending of this game made me feel empty. I know the story isn’t amazing but I’ve always loved bayonetta for its light hearted characters and melodrama. I just love seeing strong confident characters face world ending threats with a smile and Bayonetta had that in spades. Bayonetta was one of my absolute favorite characters ever and it really hurt seeing how they treated her in the end. The game itself I had fun with but that really did just kill all interest I had in going back to do all the extra content

[@Fuchsfeuer]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/e5DUp6xuZ7pniKc&ab_channel=kittidna

[@jilp2002]

Shut up

[@NightwalkersReprisal]

I have never felt emptier than I did the moment the credits started rolling and Bayonetta just started doing her interpretive dance to the music. The wind was taken out of my sails when I saw the final chapter start to play out like the prologue, and then the ending and credits rolled and the sails were set on fire and the entire boat was thrown into a woodchipper. The epilogue played and then the new Let's Dance Boys! started playing and it felt like someone just had to make it all worse by throwing a bag of cow shit into the woodchipper and spraying it all over my lawn and house as well. The joke I have with my friends now is simply "What do you mean? There wasn't a Bayonetta 3 :)"

[@amuroray9115]

@@NightwalkersReprisalwere people mad that Bayonetta died at the end with Luka?

[@thebrush9506]

Imma be honest when I first played the game I was expecting the end to be Cereza teasing Viola as they went about their daily lives before angels or demons or some other threat came to crash the party

[@psycholuigiman]

Dang. Even DMC4, with all of its problems, made sure to give Nero his moment at the end. He got the final boss fight. He got the final set piece before the credits. He even got the mid-credit bonus fight. Poor Viola really did get done dirty.

[@Dorrovian]

And he had expanding moveset to buy, even if he wasn't getting new weapons.

[@JustSoji]

What are you talking about? She gets a final boss fight against Bayo herself (which unlocks a new weapon for Bayo… hm)

[@psycholuigiman]

@@JustSoji Doesn't that feel a bit tacked on though? Also, is it even really Bayo, or just some sad fragment of her? Compared to Nero taking down the big bad twice in a row in his debut game, Viola getting stomped by her big bad guy, but getting to beat some weird shadow Bayo from out of nowhere comes off as kinda desperate. Like the writers realized the problem, but couldn't walk the prior scenes back, so they quickly made a new scene to try and convey what they forgot to convey previously. Least, that's just how it looks to me. The fact that her beating Bayo unlocks a new weapon for Bayo, but nothing for Viola, is even more messed up. Like, wow, they cared so little about Viola that even when she wins, Bayo reaps the rewards.

[@billyboleson2830]

DMC4 was a Nero game first and foremost it was his tale where and Bayo 3 viola is just kinda there

[@psycholuigiman]

@@billyboleson2830 True that. It's kind of a shame.

[@KoylTrane]

The whole Cereza vs Viola thing is also shown in customization. Bayo has different costumes, colors, including hair and the frames of glasses. What Viola get? A fucking T-shirt.

[@KreuzDrache]

Damn, Viola really did got done dirty.

[@RavenL1337]

I don’t even wanna Viola to exist!!! she is nothing but an cheep Bayo wannabe!!!

[@lumenights96]

its worth mentioning that faeries were mentioned as far back as Bayo 1, although very hidden away for the item descriptions for the Onyx Roses

[@NIHIL_EGO]

Considering said fairies lives Inferno, I doubt they have much to do with the one living in Chaos.

[@usahknights]

It definitely doesn't feel the same, the faeries in Bayonetta 3 feel like a typical fairytale-esque fabrication tied to chaos/humanity, whereas the onyx roses faeries could have been more akin to an implike demon

[@meccalovett4616]

One of the biggest plot holes brought about by this multiverse twist is that neither Paradiso nor Inferno have any other variants. Only the human world. So if that’s the case, given that Rodin is a former angel turned Infernal, he would be the only Rodin in the multiverse as he’s not human nor from the human world. That would imply that he’s the same Rodin seen in other universes (like in Tokyo Bayonetta’s universe) and therefore can travel freely throughout the multiverse. So if that’s the case, shouldn’t he have already known about the homunculi invasion? And if so, why didn’t he bother to notify our Bayonetta about it before the homunculi arrived? Because Viola was the one to inform Bayo and company about their origins, it seemed as if Rodin had no clue about their existence. But that wouldn’t make any sense. See, now I’m confused…

[@werwolfnate]

Wouldn't that also mean Rodin could have dragged them to other universe's himself? We wouldn't have needed to deal with Thule or the gears at all.

[@romanaww]

Rodin's relative uninvolvement in the plot is weird in general. In the scene where Bayo, Jeanne, Viola and Rodin meet at the Gates of Hell to discuss the plans, he explains that if someone condensed the chaos multiverse into one, they'd have the power to undo paradiso and inferno too. Since this would cause problems for his business, he should intervene in the killing of each Arch-Eve, but oh well.

[@GatorGoob]

With Paradiso and Inferno being disconnected from the multiverse, it also means there has to be at least 3 madame butterfly demons to account for all three bayonettas being able to wicked weave at the same time.. right?

[@numbrerotime6683]

44:48 all the final boss fights felt more like actual endings for different points of development, and they just never got rid of em and just added more and more ontop of eachother

[@brandoncole5533]

That was my initial thought when I played it It seemed like they just wanted to up the camp and grandeur but failed to realize that even Bayonetta the literal queen of extra even has her limits before it starts to go from cool to annoying and then flat out bad

[@SaberRexZealot]

I still liked the game, but I couldn’t believe how underdeveloped Singularity was as a villain. Like it should be illegal to still be doing that in 2022. How hard would it be to give the guy some scenes to flesh him out?

[@teneesh3376]

Harder than you think. But yeah, I'm not defending them at all. The writing was terrible in this game

[@DinoDave150]

Singularity is the worst antagonist in a video game since Arius from DMC2. You know your writing is bad when you remind me of DMC2.

[@teneesh3376]

@@DinoDave150 at least Arius was funny. Not intended, but he was hilariously bad

[@jurtheorc8117]

There's a lot of hack-and-slash games out there that have much more entertaining villains and antagonists, which could be interesting to check out. For example Soulstice, which also released last year. There's a duo (technically quartet) of active antagonists with fun dynamics between them-- even though, simply said, they're corrupted by power. The villain who serves as the final boss of the game is outright insane, and it is very clearly shown how they got to that point. It does NOT excuse their actions, but the extra context it supplies is much appreciated storytelling! And the overarching villain of the game itself, is shown to be one heck of a schemer. Amongst its shortcomings, the characters of Soulstice are very much *not* among the bad points. On less complicated notes, there's Heng Long from Marlow Briggs and the Mask of Death, Lucifer from Dante's Inferno, and Bohan and his generals from Heavenly Sword. These are all quite simple in their motivations --greed and powerlust for Heng Long, for Lucifer I don't even need to explain, and Bohan believes himself (or justifies his actions by claiming) to be a Chosen One to bring order to the land. But they're all *very* much entertaining in how they are presented. For example, Heng Long is that falsely friendly businessman CEO who charges his workers for the usage of emergency weapons that *they need to use* in order to kill Marlow, and their proposed reward if they succeed? A discount on what they have to pay back. Lucifer in DI taunts Dante at various points in his descent through Hell, with pretty fantastic performance-- until the ending, where he absolutely hams it up. I don't think i'll ever forget how he says "IIIII am ssssooooo SICK of you" in the most scornful way possible. But when it comes to ham-- Bohan and his generals take the cake (and out of his generals, Flying Fox especially). Helps that Bohan is acted out by Andy Serkis, General Flying Fox was acted by a skilled Bond villain actor, and the cutscenes were done in mocap-- so the body language helps so much in conveying their personalities. There's also my favourite hack-and-slash series, Darksiders. Which I believe has solid villains, be it via their actions or personal relationships to the respective main character depending on the game. But not on the level of entertainment that aforementioned Soulstice, Dante's Inferno, Marlow Briggs and the Mask of Death, and Heavenly Sword do.

[@JcgLounge]

Singularity is what happens when you need a quick villain idea cause you don’t want to put in the work to make an actual unique and intriguing antagonist. So you concoct something up real fast, a character with nothing interesting about them, and is essentially one of the most boring villains you could think of, and call it a day. Generic bad guy creation 101.

[@FEKana]

Thank for addressing the argument of "but this is not the same Bayonetta as the previous 2". It's a cop-out response that ignores criticism of the main story. It allows the answer to hand wave narrative issues simply by saying "different rules" without ever having to acknowledge them or even mention them

[@Matiasfv]

About the last part, Viola now being the main character and taking the mantle as it was shown during the finale and post credit scenes... That ain't happening Platinum games clearly wanted to set up Viola as the new face of the franchise, but after seeing the fan reaction they regretted the idea almost immediately and now they want to make it clear to us that Cereza will forever be the face of the franchise, even confirming (somehow) that bayonetta is still alive, here's the proof. It's basically confirmed that Cereza will still be the main character in future games, during the 2022 Game Awards, in the speech Platinum Games gave after winning the best action game of the year they said "keep your eyes peeled for Cereza's next stories". Something important there, they didn't say Bayonetta to avoid confusion because of viola and her new title/name, they confirmed more game and stories about Cereza, since they used the word "stories" (plural), that means bayonetta origins won't be the only game with Cereza as the main character, there will be more. And the most recent statement we got last week with the bayonetta 3 artbook, this note from Hideki Kamiya. "In this game we also get to see her in her casual casual clothes. I have never had a chance to depict her personal life, but it was necessary to show her daily life in order to highlight the “extraordinary” disaster that the girls are facing this time (...that’s just a front, I wanted everyone to see it and I wanted to see it too). I’m sure Bayonetta is somewhere in the new world today, dressed in fashionable attire. I would love to draw her new adventure story again someday. Bayonetta will be immortal forever!" Now knowing that, I have to admit, I still liked viola. I wish she stays regardless, at least as a sidekick to bayo and the others.

[@Ramsey276one]

Yea Viola can stay And try to catch up to Jeanne and Cereza XD

[@Mikairium]

seriously though. i dont mind viola if they made her joke around and feel like shes an actual teenager rather than everything she does is for comedic purposes and no point at all lmao.

[@planescaped]

Viola is fine as a sidekick. Main character material she is most certainly not...

[@Volvagia1927]

@@planescaped At least...not YET. Unlike Nero, at this series' pacing? By Bayonetta 6, maybe she'll have developed enough for that.

[@rjcommentary4580]

@@Volvagia1927 agreed! She COULD be a great new face for the franchise, but introducing her character and setting her up to be the protagonist in one game is absolutely absurd. I don’t know what the peeps at platinum were smoking

[@advmx3]

Side note: The bayo that dies in the prologue is not the same Bayo that comes back at the ending. The guns are different, and the names on it are too. Meaning, Bayonetta from the first game never ends with Luka, to have Viola. I think you can check that in the files too. Also, the game never explains where the Singularity happened, how the homunculi happened and all that. IT feels like they just got the enemies from that other game, astral chain and decided to reuse the enemy style. It's just dumb. Again, I just can't accept this game exists for the story alone. If they ever make a version with the battles only I will be happy. Remove all cutscenes apart from the opening act. Thank you.

[@pridefulmaster1390]

To be fair, the log on Singularity Definition does actually give him a backstory. Unfortunately said backstory is lame as all hell

[@venny1689]

Also an extremely easy to miss detail. The prologue Bayo does not have a beauty mark(and all other bayos do, in slightly different locations on their face) , which according to the lore, a witch's beauty mark is something they get after a certain "act". In the files, Prologue Bayo is also confirmed to be Viola's actual mother. One could assume the beauty mark is passed down through some witch magic shenanigans.

[@Egurius3]

Just skip the cutscenes

[@Lockn3s5]

I thought it was pretty clear from the beginning that the Bayonetta in the prologue wasn't OUR Bayonetta considering we've never met Viola before. Lol. Also I thought it was made clear that the two Bayonetta's who show up at the end are our Bayonetta's. Since both Bayo's from both games are present in this sequence that would suggest Bayo 1 & 2 are separate universes.

[@Bane_Amesta]

The prologue Bayo is way too similar to our OG ]Bayo that it makes pretty much no difference at all. As you said, only the name and color of the weapons. That's just nitpicking to a miscoscopic scale and honestly I can't take this anymore lmao I agree on a "just battles" version of the game. The rest of it can go to the trash as far as I'm concerned. Except Bayo 1 and 2 versions with their own UI. That would be nice.

[@bswift1991]

I think a lot of the story issues around Lucca could have been fixed by having him take the role Viola ends up filling in this game. If you got to spend a little time playing as him while he discovered his new powers and they were able to take the time to fill out how he basically became a werewolf fairy god beast, this ending may have been a bit less weird. Viola is a strange addition to the game as she contributes very little to the plot for how much screen time she gets.

[@haihuynh8772]

Or instead of having him appear solely as a werewolf boy toy that is also a mid-boss, have him return as the tag-along and actually talk to Bayonetta.

[@thebrush9506]

@@haihuynh8772honestly I just realized that Luka barely has any interaction with Bayonetta in bayo3, it’s mainly Viola that takes up that character trope that Luka use to play in the last 2 game

[@kinglod2312]

Based on violas design I thought she was going to say that she wouldn't dress like Bayonetta "in a million years"

[@MASKarade25]

“Fuck you” - El Donte

[@mustang4636]

DmC reference?

[@kinglod2312]

@@mustang4636 dmc dmc reference and what else would it be

[@TheMattsem]

Man Bayonetta and Rodin have more chemistry what a joke of an ending

[@derrickdaniels3955]

I agree and I honestly ship her and Dante

[@MILDMONSTER1234]

@@derrickdaniels3955 I ship her and Vergil, Bayo wouldn’t give Dante the time of day

[@theetaurus1832]

@@derrickdaniels3955ew

[@theetaurus1832]

@@MILDMONSTER1234ew

[@yuyahakari318]

I ship Jeanne and Bayo, how it ahouldve been

[@lunxri]

Spoiler,,,,,,,Bayonetta 4 starts with Bayonetta waking up and recalling the crazy dream about multiverses she just had.

[@TinyPrinceGames]

Glad you brought up Like A Dragon as a better example of passing the torch, I think it does it so well that it actually really bothers me that Kiryu is returning in 8. In LAD it makes complete sense for him and his character to stick his nose into something he isn't supposed to, it's pretty much what he's done the entire series. Feeling as if he needs to test Ichiban before he can truly tear himself away from his past life and finally move on is an incredibly Kiryu move. He's that type of person and the entire series leading up to that shows it. It's a well executed and earned passing of the torch. At least it was, until they decided he needs to come back in the next game. It really bugs me that this industry can't seem to have any sacred cows and just let characters be phased out, especially when they make a point of passing things down to new ones.

[@Comkill117]

Luka’s entire character in this game feels like we all collectively skipped a game and this was really Bayo 4 the whole time. It’s kinda insane how out of left field basically everything about him here is. Also that’s nice they fixed Viola’s parry later, because at launch I switched to the moon and never turned it off because it was the only reliable defense she had.

[@JameboHayabusa]

I don't really play the games for the story, but even I gotta admit, Bayo and Luka being Arch Adam and Eve is lame af. They really could've handled the story a lot better. Personally, I think the story should have just been about the faeries and not singularity. It would have been a lot more interesting to delve into a race that could possibly rival the umbra witches, and it actually might have made me like Luka if done right.

[@tylernelson9039]

The ending definitely left the largest impression. What I hated most was that they didn’t flesh out Luka at all. He’s voiced the same as a persona character, they couldn’t ask Yuri some questions on how to add depth to characters? Haha. I have always liked Luka, and I always will despite the ending of 3. I just wish they gave us more than literally nothing. People are justified to feel angry, betrayed, or disappointed by how it ended because no, it was not “unexpected”. There was no way of predicting how things would end, but most anything was better than what we got.

[@hydro7373]

Funny thing is Yosuke and Luka fundamentally have the same personality

[@TheFLAMEXD]

Remember, there's no such thing as bad characters. Only bad writers.

[@tylernelson9039]

@@hydro7373 It honestly baffles me. They must have known what kind of character they were going for Luka years ago, and Yuri is great at that role. He was just so underutilized. I can imagine him reading along scripts and freaking out about Luka suddenly having faerie powers. Haha

[@infinitedreamer9359]

Especially since they were trying to pair him and Bayo and had the stupid idea to make the climax hinge on that. When it makes no sense for their characters from the previous games.They needed to develop not only Luka himself but his relationship with Bayo and they failed in both of those.

[@tylernelson9039]

@@infinitedreamer9359 They forced that climax into the story right after revealing that the Bayonettas we played as before were from different universes. So they acknowledge that we know even less about the relationship with this universe’s Luka and Bayo, which is even worse since they deemed their relationship to span across every universe. So no one can’t say it’s not canon, no one can say they aren’t destined to fall in love in every universe, no one can try analyze why they love each other, no one can say anything negative or positive about the ending at all because it got “wrapped up perfectly” and that’s all we get for now. I think most of us are ok with change in our series, a lot welcome changes if they’re planned out. Regardless of if this ending was planned out, I don’t think there’s a way for most to appreciate how it concluded. TLDR; Bayo 3 Ending is even worse than you realized

[@AniiPeLanza]

Considering the fact that not even Hideki himself is sure if the two Bayos in the ending are different people or the one from the first games I wouldn't be surprised if Bayo 4 actually tries to backpedal all this multiverse bullshit

[@mikubrot]

bayo 3 is just a convoluted fever dream

[@pridefulmaster1390]

One of the worst parts of the story that doesn’t get mentioned here is Singularity. Just a completely awful villain in every sense of the word, with the worst part being that he’s some unconnected new character. I was legit convinced Fairy Luka would end up being him & that would’ve been so much better than “he was THAT SCIENCE GUY!” Like…THIS is your ultimate threat? some random bald dude?? I know the enemy logs give him a backstory, but it sucks & doesn’t detract from my point. The lack of any real emotional connection to any the heroes is such a detriment. It’d be like if Urizen from DMC5 was just some random demon

[@jondoe7036]

Not to mention he's so obviously the bad guy, it makes our heroes just seem that much stupider for not realizing it. I've seen someone rationalize Singularity being just some rando as it playing into idea of this unknown anonymous threat spawn from humanity's ambition and how that's supported by it being someone we don't actually know, but I dunno. I still feel the cliche route of making the villain an alternate universe Bayonetta would have ultimately yielded more fun final confrontation, or just doing something ultra wacky, like having the baddie be evil Enzo from another universe. Honestly it's weird they haven't just figured out some way to make Rodin be the antagonist due to some circumstances causing him to have conflicting interests with Bayo, or something. He seems like a character perfectly suited for playing that sort of loosely antagonistic role, where he'd try to seriously pulverize you for getting in his way, but upon being beaten at the end he'd be all good sport about it and serve you a drink on the house.

[@DinoDave150]

I've said it once and I'll say it again. Singularity is the worst antagonist in a video game since Arius from DMC2.The main villain really should have been an alternate Bayonetta. You know your writing is ass when you remind me of DMC2.

[@confused9026]

the enemies in bayo 3 I cannot care about them. They are so annoying too, I don’t really like using demon slave since they feel sorta slow and the monsters are half impossible to fight they are so annoying. The old man is stupid and he looks like an egg.

[@thebrush9506]

@@confused9026arguably the only bayo demon slave I like as a certified must have is the clock tower because I like its lore and just the fact that have the time I can use an umbral mech instead of

[@CUP1D3_L0V3]

Bayonetta3 being the first bayonetta game I played when I saw a new bayonetta character in the story I would usually say “can’t wait till they die so I can get their weapons” 😭😭

[@Vespyr_]

Ouch, that's so rough.... bet that felt worse once you played the first two and saw how special she is. -_-

[@danielalonso7478]

Dude, you really hit the nail on the head when describing Bayonetta 3's missed opportunity of it being a multiverse story instead of a time travel story because I had the exact same thoughts. Bayo 3 is ultimately a time travel story that dresses up as a multiverse story and ends up doing a disservice to both concepts. Also, regarding the homunculi, there's two ways I can think of that could've been an improvement to them, in my opinion. One is that in the previous games the angels and demons were in a way representative of humanity's virtues and vices, so since the homunculi are man-made have them be representative of the different aspects of humanity's psyche. The second way is to really play up on the homunculi's seemingly indifferent nature to everything. Have them be absolutely indifferent up until the moment of their demise where they actually show a human emotion. This can even be used to show and foreshadow Singularity's character as since he's the creator of the homuculi they can carry aspects of his personality, even if he has those emotions buried deep.

[@huitzil2389]

Nothing in this story happens for a reason. It's incredible. There is no setup to any payoff, there's mo escalation. It's like the story was written by GPT, something that is capable of associating what kinds of things appear next to each other with absolutely no conception of what a story is.

[@telekinesticman]

Great video, I really liked your part about the multiverse concept and how it becomes this stupid shield to deflect any criticism of the narrative. I didn't cry when I watched Bayonetta go to Inferno because I was sad that she died, I was sad because she *wasn't* Bayonetta, not *my* Bayonetta anyway. I don't like this version of the character, and I don't know why they would willingly throw away the charm of the "real" Cereza from 1 and 2, for the sake of some convoluted fated romance across time and space.

[@planescaped]

Bayonetta 3 did so much right in the gameplay department for the most part, but so much wrong in the story and setting, that it made it quite the mixed bag. I enjoyed it... but I also was rather put off by it. I don't think I am going to replay it in the foreseeable future, like I did the first two.

[@usahknights]

​​​​@@planescaped You're absolutely right, and one of the parts I hate most about Bayonetta 3 is that it's not objectively bad enough for me to hate and discard it completely

[@derrickdaniels3955]

@@usahknights But compared to the previous 2 games its lacking, to me personally

[@usahknights]

@@derrickdaniels3955 that is literally what I'm saying lol

[@pedrourbano501]

One thing it could be done with the homunculi is that they could have them react like a human would. They would be the polar opposite of demons and angels, instead of being prideful otherworldly being that would react to the ivory being knocked out of their tower they would react like a normal person would to being punched around, imagine, bayonetta does a treadmill attack on a Floccus and after he gets out of it he straight up calls Bayonetta a skank.

[@jurtheorc8117]

I think the idea is that the Homunculi are partially a hivemind. Just machines, tools meant to further a singular purpose, refined to serve particular purposes. And personalities would get in the way of utmost effectiveness of their purpose. Seems like an idea that could be used for other factions, though. Perhaps more low-ranking demons. Or more urban Fairies.

[@johanandersson8252]

They did Jeanne dirty to.

[@DinoDave150]

And people thought Lady and Trish drew the short straw for DMC5.

[@jondoe7036]

I've never even understood what fans see in Jeanne to warrant her popularity, nor do I much care for her, but I have to agree. Throwing her in the trash like that, what a bizarre way to waste your deuteragonist.

[@KoylTrane]

@@jondoe7036 Jeanne is less class and more crass, that's what appeals to me

[@jondoe7036]

@@KoylTrane Alrighty. I mainly think of it in terms of how much weaker her characterization is in comparison to Bayo's, as a result of how sparsely she's utilized to any notable effect in the games and none of her designs do it for me, though admittedly that's mostly just on account how I find red to be an aesthetical turn off.

[@planescaped]

@@jondoe7036 Jeanne is super underdeveloped.. .which is weird considering we're 3 games in now. But each game's story has felt like it was written by a toddler tweaking on pixie dust so I suppose it's not too surprising.

[@Gender_Ascender]

Crazy that I didn't see this until now. KZbin not showing you on my front page in a long while. Very happy I saw your name in another video and checked out what you've been up to!

[@bdk336]

I haven't seen this talked about a lot but I have one big problem with 3's combat that has nothing to do with the actual mechanics and everything to do with visual presentation: too many effects cluttering the screen, overloading my senses and making it hard to read the actions. I had some problems with this in 2 but in 3 it's an active barrier to me playing.

[@Juwce_86]

I actually understand and get this, and it sucks you can't play it coherently because of it. The bigger enemies and camera always cause me issues to be honest.

[@izakmagdamo4285]

And the massive enemies whos attacks happen off camera cuz they're too big for the camera.

[@KaiboStudios]

"You aren't gonna girlboss dance your way outta this one!" BRUH XD

[@Cloperella]

To sum up just *one* of my biggest complaints with how the sequels have handled combat mechanics: Look at Bayo 1. Flashy and intricate, but you can still see Bayonetta herself and marvel at how she's the one performing the spectacles. Bayo 2 and 3 has me struggling to see if Bayonetta herself is even on screen at the time. DMC and especially 5 know that the character's visibility is just as important as what they're doing in a fight. You want to see *Dante* throwing his motorcycle around or flipping his nunchuks in every direction, not have the arena turn into a giant laser light show every time you throw out an attack.

[@Chaos2Frozen]

In 10 years we'll all look back and laugh at this awkward phase of Platinum the same way we're doing with Capcom now.

[@Egurius3]

Are we doing that with Capcom now? Aren't they doing just fine at the moment and releasing quality titles?

[@jondoe7036]

@@Egurius3 I think they mean ten years from now we'll hopefully be able to look at Platinum now the same way we now look at Capcom from 10 years ago.

[@Egurius3]

@@jondoe7036 Oh, okay. Gotcha. That makes more sense 😅

[@EncinoDude]

That’s if platinum is even around in ten years. Platinums last couple of years outside of astral chain hasn’t been good, and unlike Capcom they probably don’t have the money to survive constant failures

[@Mclucasrv]

I hope that this is the case and they dont die because of live service cancelled games.

[@CowboyTiger0600]

fast forward to april "bayonetta origins" is selling low and not many people are invested in the series anymore, what a way to throw an amazing franchise to the trash bin and shit on it's potential

[@lizardqueen6041]

Which is such a shame considering it's actually the best written game in the whole series. I was apprehensive when the trailer for it came out at the 2022 game awards, but then I got it for Xmas 2023 and... well, it's the true love letter to the series, not 3, and it adds so much depth to Cereza. Hopefully the poor reception and sales numbers don't put the rest of the series in the ground

[@SingingDragons11]

It’s amazing how game that I looked forward to for years killed my enthusiasm for a series I loved.

[@sev1120]

The position of Arch Adam and Arch Eve would definitely fit better for two characters who are already in the series: Rosa and Baldur, Bayonetta's Mother and Father An Umra Witch and Lumen Sage breaking the barrier between their societies and having a child of both of them is definitely fitting with the Adam and Eve idea

[@advmx3]

OH, another thing: 1 - Bayo 3 makes sure to make Bayo looks SMALLEr thanLuka. He was always a little bigger than her, but it never felt he was looking down on her. 2 - they make sure to downgrade her personality from a strong dominatrix to a love-sick girl, even her taunts and way of fighting is more of a ballarina than of a sexy woman who owns herself. 3 - The ENTIRE Game, every single Bayonetta and Witch does stupid things. You would NEVER expect Jeanne to be bitch stabbed at the end without even avoiding it, no matter what. They always used their age to their advantage. The game even says that by pairing with Madama, Bayonetta is super smart. That could explain WHY the variants are stupid, but for THIS bayonetta to be stupid is just DUMB. 4 - They tried to explain her change in personallity and sexyness by making her our Original Cereza from Bayo 1, if that's true, then THIS variant of Bayonetta fell for Luka because she somehow imprinted on that goofy guy who tried his best to protect her as a child, and once she somehow met him in the future she has fallen for him because of that, as mucch as it's weird, it also feels weirdly grooming, in a weird way and no one likes that. And again, THIS cereza is the one who lived for 500+ years without being sealed while also being the one who made a contract with one of the MAdama`s variants (we see that lots of bayo variants, such as French Bayonetta, even if they lived for 500 years, didn't contract the Madama, which explain why even that version is just dumb). So WHY, he's the dumbest of the three main ones? Bayo 1 sometimes it caught by surprise, but never actually hit by it, such as when the tentacles tries to catch her. Bayo 2 only got one moment when a demon almost kill-shot her because of how vulnerable a witch should be when using the Climax Demon. After that, she almost killed Alraune out of spite because Jeanne wasn't waking up. It was shown in 3 that both versions of Bayonetta can use Demon Masquerade, which in itself just show they are just as strong as any other versions of Bayonetta's out there, and to make sure this cereza was the strongest, she's the only one who can use the Deadly sin ritual. STILL: She does the worst possible choices in the entire game. She looks at her variants being killed instead of helping them. She barely talk to them, and the only one she does, it's out of spite for their mother being killed, and so on. The entire plot of this game is rushed, and the worst part is that the game FORCES us to pay attention to the plot while the previous ones doesn't. So yeah, it's not about Luka with Her. It's about how you tell the story. Points that never were explained: 1 - VIola's mother not being ressurected, but being extremelly similar to Bayo 1 with a different style gun. 2 - Who the main antagonist is and how he came to be beserk, what is his research and why he wants to live in the only universe of his definition? 3 - How Bayonetta and Luka in this universe met, and how they started to like each other. 4 - How Bayonetta and Luka can see Viola as their daughter. No matter how SHE feels about them, the fact that her original father and mother died don't change that. Even if you believe in multiverse theories, your variants in each one of these universes act and think differently. There's no way you can say me that they both just accepted that she's their daughter, she's the daughter of another variant of them, true, and with time I could see them getting along with them, but that whole maternal instinct with Bayonetta about Vilola felt weird and forced just for the plot. 5 - Why Rodin, which states the fall of all universes would affect the trinity and that includes himself, never do a thing to help at the end, even if he can celarly navigate through the multiverse. 6 - How the enemy is so much more powerful than Bayonetta and Jeanne, because if he is, the game forgets to make us understand that. The fact tha the essentially bitch-slapped Jeanne out of her existence, even if we know witches are super fast, and not dumb, of course they forgot to explain some things for us. For example: Is he somehow able to disable Witch Time, or being FASTER than a witch? 7 - What happened to all Bayonettas, INCLUDING the ones from the first and second game? Are all of those universes fine and well? Again, it just feels like they didn't think through about the plot, the time just ended and Nintendo wanted the money back, and that was that. It feels like Bayonetta needed at least 3 more years to be properly developed into something less annoying. Gameplay? Awesome. But for every new good step, they did two backwards. So yes. That's just annoying. A friend did say this to me after playing it: Bayonetta 3 is like DMC: Devil May Cry. Most DieHard fans will want to forget it existed just because of the characters and how they behave. And: Imagine if Dante just died for no reason in DMC4 and Nero was set as the new Dante, and the "Dante" name was actually an honorary name that was passed down to Nero? People would riot. Again: Not a bad game, but it's just... It's not worth it. Really. It feels it was made especifically to kill the personallity of the characters, and it just... Ugh. It's hard, really. Kamiya just proved to me he's not a good writter.

[@derrickdaniels3955]

Kamiya wrote Okami, Bayonetta 1 and Bayonetta 2 and those were great. He really dropped the ball here though, hard, like goddamn what happened in the production room? Worst part is we were actually supposed to play as Bayonetta 1 in a desolated Vigrid and Bayonetta 2 in a Frozen Noatun, those got cut however.

[@ifyouwantmoneythengivemeev8094]

okay, to be fair, luka's always been taller than bayo, you can actually even see it in the short bayo one clip at 45:34.

[@TheFLAMEXD]

I can't reallt compare Bayo 3 to DmC: Devil May Cry.

[@amuroray9115]

Saying they downgraded her sex appeal and dominatrix personality is a straight lie…… All the other criticisms are justified but those first 3 points are just bad.

[@paulakroy2635]

Comparing it to dmc devil may cry tbh does a disservice to the gameplay. Like Bayonetta 3 is an extremely complicated combat system, that has so many options if a little unbalanced. DMC Devil may neuter so much of the technical side of dmc

[@nnoby_2345]

This game claims to care about luka but human luka that we know has about 2 minutes of screentime total

[@Vocayaya]

the comedic mastery of Viola pronouncing her name and you just changing its pronounciation the second after. *chef kiss*

[@augustbornone]

Man, I honesty cannot agree with you more for Bayonetta 3's controversy. I remember two years ago when I saw a trailer for this game, I was HYPE, I was excited seeing as I played Bayonetta 2 so many times it was not even funny, it became one of my all-time favorite games and I was SO exited after finding out about Bayonetta 3 coming out. I finally got Bayonetta 3 for Christmas last year, and as I played it and enjoyed it and having a blast, this game's enjoyment got a bit....iffy when I notice a few things, one of which is that you cannot equip items on both your hands and feet after getting the second weapon, which is what gave Bayonetta so much replay value and weapon variety, tho I deited to let that slide as it was a bit minor. Tho it was around the Chapter 5 segment when I played as Viola, with her more limited move-sets, and her EXRTREMLY tedious Parry Witch Time that really remines me of Raiden from Metal Gear Rising Revengeance, I was like "Oh...this is gonna be a problem on repeat playthroughs, tho I GUESS I can look by that as its probobly just a one-time thing." Then after playing Chapter 6, I was then introducing to ANOTHER iffy segment, a Side Chapter were you play as Jeann in very James Bounds-est Stealth Segments, they weren't BAD, they were kind of off and didn't really do much for the game, after playing that segment I was then like "Ok that was a bit out-of-nowhere, but hey it was probloby a little joke, so I guess I can let that slide too.....". But it was then that I started Chapter 7, in which I played as Viola, to which it was at that moment, I was like "Oh no........is this was Bayonetta 3's gonna be like?", and sure enough, it was like this, being bord and somewhat annoyed with the Jeann segments, getting frustrated with the Viola segments (to the point that I littary went "Fuck It!" and just quit a challenge segment) while having a blast playing as Bayonetta with her arsenal of weapons and bosses, so my though on the game were...mixed at first. It was only after finale beating Bayonetta 3 18 days ago and beating the final boss which I will adment, was great and had a lot going for it.....that I then witness its Ending, as the end credits roll, I just keep saying "W-what did I just witness?", "What the freak just happen??" and also more importantly...."WHAT DOES THIS MEAN?????", and I was still like this while beating the Epilogue Boss fight, after that I've decited to look up a review of Bayonetta 3 by SomeCallMeJohnny, and he said during his review, and I quote "Look I gotta be real after I finish this game I though to myself "I think this might be my least favorite game in the line-up"", and no joke, EVERYONE spook negatively of how Bayonetta 3 is, and honesty, that's quite sad..... After hearing that line from "58:44" to "59:07", I'm very glad that I'm not the only one who thinks that Bayonetta 3 was BEYOND rushed, and considering the Devlopment it had, that's no surprise, the fact that Bayonetta got the third Chaos Gear Off-Screen, the fact that the main antagonist of the game, Singularity barely gets any screen-time with no motives of him being evil in the first place, the fact that you only get to play as one of the other Bayonettas (that being the Japanese one) ONE time and its never done again, the fact that this game has fewer Chapters then the previous game, the fact that Viloa as a limited move sets, as well as the fact that Luka's relationship with Bayonetta feels...forced, it really feels like the developers were really rushing to get Bayonetta 3 out for its launch, it also doesn't help that Bayonetta makes NO call backs to her previous adventures, not even Loki even gets so much as a MENTION, despite Bayonetta and Loki's relationship in that game. But like I said in my one comment from SomeCallMeJohnny's review of the game, NO, that does not mean Bayonetta 3 is the Darksiders 3, Kirby Star Allies and/or Sonic Forces of the Bayonetta series, it IS a finish product, and despite its flaws, I DO considered Bayonetta 3 a good game, in the words of "Liam Triforce", its just a shame that after 9 years, THIS is the Bayonetta game we received, this is NOT the comeback that this series deserve, nor would I expected either, I didn't expect to enjoy it as much as Bayonetta 2, but I AT LEAST expected a complement game, what I got was sometimes brilliant (in the case with Bayonetta, the weapons and boss), sometimes infuriating (in the case with the Viola and Jeann Segments and ending), but mostly and ok game that could have been SO much more. I still like the Bayonetta series and like I said, I still do like Bayonetta 3, and am interested in getting both the first game and its prequel game, and if the now conformed Bayonetta 4 is a thing, I just hope that we get a Bayonetta game that blows our minds like Bayonetta 2 did. But overall, good review Foxcade, good review. ;)

[@scalicali8073]

One thing you didn't mention and it really bothers me in this game is how the enemies can attack off camera, it's really annoying and frustating to get attacked by an enemy out of nowhere. Other than that it's my favorite out of the trilogy when it comes to gameplay

[@megasoniczxx]

I feel like Platinum's been moving towards that since the time Transformers Devastation came out. I honestly don't mind it too much but I don't blame anybody for disliking it since it made their previous games more fair.

[@JuliusCaesar103]

The legend has returned

[@Robert-tl2vg]

Sucking up much

[@drewhaynes1874]

when people realize dark eve wasnt actually the b3 bayo we play as it complicates things even worse... as she was the one who gave viola the bayonetta mantel...

[@spookyscary6400]

and given that she summons Kraken, this dark eve must have been present since the start of the game, because you fight Kraken in the prologue; it almost kills Jeanne, and Bayo herself asks who was summoning it

[@NintendanGX]

One of Bayonetta 3's biggest failings is how much of a chore it feels to get an overall Platinum on each level, never mind Pure Platinum. All of the blemishes and questionable design choices are brought to the forefront when you're forced to do Viola's finicky stages, or the drastic shifts in gameplay when you're controlling the demons (roller-skating Gomorrah, a large target, past a linear path littered with tiny obstacles, isn't my idea of fun when I'm trying to play the core gameplay to a Pure Platinum standard). What's especially frustrating is that this game has a quality-of-life feature I've wanted since the first game; the ability to replay certain segments of a level and update my end-level rank, without having to play the entire level perfectly from start to finish. So if I got Pure Platinums early on in a level, and then did terribly towards the end, I don't have to restart from the beginning. All I have to do is replay the segment with the Verses I sucked at. It's a shame this great feature is tied to a game I never want to go back to after my first playthrough, because it's honestly a godsend, and I'd prefer it over having to exit to the title screen every time I screw up. Ironically, the Jeanne segments are the easiest to achieve Pure Platinums on (probably because the people in charge of them bothered balancing the difficulty appropriately), and one of my favourite parts of the game. I actually found these segments a fun detour from the standard gameplay, and they never outstayed their welcome. I wouldn't mind a small-scale eShop exclusive game dedicated to these spy segments, with new levels, enemies and its own self-contained story. Unlike Viola, an undercooked imitation of Bayonetta's gameplay, Jeanne's segments are different enough that it's not too jarring when going straight from Bayo, yet the designers made necessary concessions to ensure those who wanted to explore these levels to the fullest and aim for the Pure Platinums were rewarded for their efforts. That being said, I don't know if I'll ever touch a new Bayonetta game moving forward. While I enjoyed most of 3 in spite of its flaws, those flaws were severe enough that I no longer have any faith in the future of the franchise, or Platinum's ability to understand the series' strengths. In a world where DMC5 exists, Platinum's own offerings over the past 4 years have just been embarrassing. It's bad enough that Astral Chain ran at 30FPS for a genre where 60 was a basic necessity, but the constant shifts in gameplay style, all while grading the player, made sure I'd never want to replay that game for better ranks either. If you're going to grade the player, at least have a consistent gameplay experience to grade them on. I shouldn't be penalised for not solving a block puzzle fast enough, or dropping ice cream on my first time, when the majority of what I'm graded on (and what I'm good at) is combat. People claim Platinum had their renaissance with NieR: Automata, but if you ask me, they've only gone downhill from there. Automata's combat was servicable for a real-time RPG (though honestly, it lacks the depth of most Xenoblade and Tales games), but it's nothing compared to their character-action games. It's only in service to the game's narrative, which is where its core appeal lies, and even then, Platinum weren't responsible for that. It hurts to say it, but I don't think I'll ever buy Platinum's next games at launch. Not until they prove they can still make quality games like they used to before 2015. I don't know what's going on internally, but I really hope they get their shit together, especially now that Kamiya's left the company to work on new projects.

[@thiagocerqueira9473]

One of my main problems with the final act is that the battle de-scales in grandure as it goes on It feels like it’s starts at the climax with the kaiju Gomorrah fight and increasingly goes less extravagant with each fight It does make sense with the story they were telling to slow down for the last 2 or 3 fights But we should have some INCREASE in tension too Like, have the space fight to begin the ending, then the big kaiju fight, giving us the increase, and then just bayo and singularity again as if they exhausted themselves after the big godzilla punch-out

[@JuliusCaesar103]

Sad to see the state of PlatinumGames nowadays, even Transformers Devastation was super fun.

[@johnbark8753]

Glad to see you back man. I’ve always enjoyed your videos on Stylish Action games (especially the ones where you highlight some indie games that need some love like assault spy). That being said, I think you really outdone yourself with this video. It’s my favorite Bayonetta 3 video because it takes a mature approach with what it does right/wrong. You also take the time to explain your reasons in a respectful way. You make a lot of good points and even discuss things I haven’t even consciously considered (like how stylish action games have a new character that has a new gimmick but no growth). Honestly this is a God tier discussion video (though your quality retrospective videos aren’t to be overlooked either) Keep up the great work man!

[@leodragon4056]

Excellent job fox, kinda surprised you went the whole video not mentioning the voice actress drama. This game is an oddity amongst its predecessors but I am hopeful one controversial apple isn't enough to deter them

[@advmx3]

That's because a voice actor changing is normal. It should NOT be the reason for you not to play something, especially when the new actress did a very good job trying to emulate that voice, which is hard. Of all of the problems with Bayo 3, the different voice for her is the least of the problems. To me, the fact that they destroyed the characters in this game is just the tip of the iceberg of what will happen from now on. And knowing Kamiya? If he's there for the 4th game, it won't be good in the story part again. You can give me a masterpiece in gameplay, if the story ir barren, it's not a good game. Period.

[@leodragon4056]

@@advmx3 oh I'm fully with you, thr amount of cutscene depowering is just a nightmare to get through

[@Shashank7170]

I'm guessing the voice acting drama will become irrelevant in the future and people watching this video 5 years from now won't give a single shit.

[@leodragon4056]

@@Shashank7170 fair

[@amuroray9115]

@@advmx3 these games never had a very good story. The gameplay was ALWAYS the most important thing. Period. Gameplay for a video game matters most

[@Revolthell]

7:23 HAHA YOU CAN SAY THAT AGAIN! Everything you said about the combat can't be emphasized enough, its very much like using Doppelganger with Vergil in DmC and DMC5 but on steroids. Really also the point about the Multiverse being a costume gimmick, we could have seen Bayonetta meet ancient witches that mentored alternative versions of herself and learn the lessons and bring out a new side of her. Another great video!!!

[@marcbraun5342]

Great video, even only highlighting the conclusion part as an example, this was so well done on it's own in my opinion. It had an arc with emotional ups and downs. This is often handled as an afterthought or a summary although it's the last thing people see of the video and this speaks volumes about the quality of this channel and your development. Really well done, Fox.

[@Spider-Man9615]

A complicated climax sounds like a roundabout way of saying you owe someone child support.

[@tylercafe1260]

Bayonetta's new super mechanic is just copying more of DMC. Specifically DMC4 which introduced big super attacks within your Devil Trigger in the form of Showdown, Maximum Bet, and Final Judgement Cut. Then DMCV heavily emphasized super attacks even more with Neros Breakers, Dantes Sin DT, V's direct piloting of Nightmare, and Vergils Concentration Meter earning you supers for SDT meter. Everytime I look at Bayonetta it's trying so hard to not be DMC but at the same time follows it's design ideas down to even having reappearing characters from DMC.

[@KoylTrane]

Concentration Meter was a thing in DMC4SE too

[@louismccormick3263]

Supers have existed in fighting games years before dmc and they’re in shit tons of stuff though

[@KoylTrane]

@@louismccormick3263 ...dmc is not a fighting game

[@sev1120]

With DMC it makes sense. The supers make sense in-universe because: Nero's Devil Breaker dupers are artificial creations he basically overclocks for a few moments before they explode Dante's SDT is him finally embracing his demonic heritage and unlocking phenomenal power Vergil's concentration supers being fuelled by his SDT gauge is to highlight his power and skill The only suspect one is V directly controlling Nightmare, but his supermove is moreso summoning nightmare in the first place

[@paulakroy2635]

That is a shallow as fuck analysis.

[@teneesh3376]

One thing I don't like that no one ever talks about is the multiple currencies instead of one. It's small, but that just means that you'll have a surplus of one cause you are using the other currencies for other things. DMC4 did this, and had the same issue

[@Juwce_86]

You unlock the ability to exchange seeds for halos later. It's to gate items in the store.

[@jondoe7036]

GamingBrit did note it in his review with "The Proud Souls are back in 2022".

[@umbrancoven3526]

I really like this video because it not only perfectly reflects my thoughts and feelings of the game (whether or not I only realized them after watching which is probably a different issue entirely lol) while also delivering a hopeful and optimistic look at whatever the future of the series may be. Like you said, not every game is gonna be a smash hit and there are bound to be some stinkers, but that should be seen as a caution and not as a harbinger or omen of what's to come.

[@aavventurato]

I came from the future to say that Kamiya left Platinum after f*ing it up.

[@sketchtheparadigmyork1217]

All things considered, the camera does a good job at trying to show what’s happening. It’s just that the enemies are massive…

[@watashiwamosura]

Thank you! This video was great and perfectly articulated my feelings on the game. The character and games mean so much to me (I have a Bayo tattoo, figures, art books, etc), so the ending of this game really felt like a slap in the face. The entire story concept had so much potential and I think that's why it hurts even more. I like Viola, but I always dreaded playing her sections because she felt so limited and constrained compared to Bayo. For my sanity I'm pretending that this game doesn't exist/isn't canon. Very curious to what the new Cereza game brings to this lore mess.

[@agt_pendergast8899]

I had a lot of fun with gameplay, but the story seems to be daring you to care. And Kamiya's post about Bayonetta never becoming a pure action title feels like a threat to continue to include an obnoxious amount of crummy minigames. Just some random thoughts; why is 'Bayonetta' a title to be passed down? Rodin just gave it to Cereza as a nickname since she didn't know herself. It doesn't fit Viola since she doesn't use guns, and only a handful of people in the games seem to even know her. Viola sees her mother die in one universe, gets a chance to save and know her in another, makes fun of her accent. Bayo dance number felt very awkward after her death.

[@derrickdaniels3955]

Felt like a kick in the balls if you ask me

[@planescaped]

If anything Viola should have her own nickname, Stabberella. And I don't mind mini-game segments... the first time. They very much lose their charm on a second run though. Maybe have less of them and include alternate routes with just conventional gameplay.

[@fnkyron]

“I too wish I can romance a bad bitch outta my league by being a goofy lil guy” Lmfaooo fox

[@KreuzDrache]

Honestly though, relationship goals.

[@louisewilson2044]

One reason why Nero suceeds and Viola fails is in DMC4/5 Dante is alive and well in the end of those two games so the player isn't obliged to accept Nero as a replacement character. In Bayonetta 3 not only does Bayonetta die but passes her name onto Viola. The player is mourning a character they played in the first two games and now they are being forced to accept this new character as the replacement for no reason other than she is Bayonetta's daughter.

[@haihuynh8772]

Moreover, Nero had half a game for you to get attached to with his own arc and plot-relevant characters. Viola was playable for a quarter, and half the time she's just babysitting Luka and fumbling without uncovering anything of her own or aiding Bayonetta beyond ferrying her to Thule. She didn't even have a character to bounce off of because Cheshire was non-verbal.

[@Witchtimez]

I agree with mostly everything except the complaint about Bayonetta needing Luka--her death didn't depend on his decision; she was already dying once her Umbran brooch/heart got damaged, so she technically still died in battle, trying to save the multiverse. As for Bayoluka as a whole, that was intended from the beginning as Luka was given the love interest description back on the first game websites since 2008 or 2009ish. If you look at it as the Roger and Jessica Rabbit type of pairing, it all makes perfect sense because Luka is truly the adorably bumbling malewife. The main issue by making it so prominent in Bayo3 is that they kept him away from most of the game, missing the vital chance to reintroduce their banter and tone after a freaking 8 year gap between games. Instead of him leaving us useful info and hints on where to go next like usual, they kept him in the background for the sake of a surprise twist while introducing a slew of new lore, powers, etc with no explanations. It's not at all shocking to find out that director's got switched halfway through development because the game is such a scatterbrained mess of half-baked ideas. Bayo 3 is a fine action game, but it is the weakest Bayonetta game in every sense of the word.

[@shadowthehedgehog181]

57:22 And...now he left Platnium, so... I wonder how Bayo 4 will turn out

[@jonathan3504]

I looooved your narration. Your vid was fun to watch. ☺️

[@ethancamacho7615]

This game has amazing highs and the lowest of lows it’s a good game but it just feels like it’s place will be 3rd on people’s top 3 Bayonetta games

[@jondoe7036]

Well, for now anyway...

[@TheDominitri]

Definitely one of the top three Bayonetta games

[@SaberRexZealot]

I prefer 3 to 2 to be honest, but neither are better than 1.

[@uroskesic6117]

Soo it s kindof like dmc 4

[@KoylTrane]

That's the game for me. At it's highest, I'd say it outdid DMC5, but overall DMC5 is a more solid game

[@887frodo]

What mortified me the most about that ending wasn’t that Bayo and Luka get together; but that Bayo then goes on to invalidate every single Bayo in every single universe by saying that her and Luka’s love is a constant in all of the universes. Like, no beatch, I was there for Bayo 1 and 2. You spent two games with cat fur all over your mouth to then come here and tell me, with a straight face, you were always an avid investor in rooster fights. My fav Bayo 3 review so far is from Pelvic Gaming cuz she does a brief deconstruction into how Bayo was always an anti-patriarchy game (main antagonist is a father figure who dresses as a priest during the Spanish Inquisition and comes from a witch-hunter dynasty; and our protagonist is a witch that uses her sensuality as a weapon against purity injustice of angels). Bayo 3’s ending invalidated all that. Luka was a punching bag for a reason. He was the male gaze personified. He was the member of the audience that Bayo used to drive the point of “I’m not here for you to fantasize about me; I’m here for you to fantasize BEING me cuz we all want to be sexy and lethal” Turns out she really was being sexualized…

[@haihuynh8772]

Yeah, she went from barely tolerating his creepy ass because he's funny to fuck with, to barely tolerating his cumbrained ass because he's useful, to suddenly loving him. Like the game didn't even attempt to show that she loved him, they showed her barely tolerating his annoying ass because she can't get rid of him.

[@lunasperidot8760]

I don't really know if I 100% agree with that analysis of Luka but I get where it's coming from.

[@icyvalleygurl2702]

The amount of trauma in Bayo 3.. Jeanne was the one with deaths (2 fake out deaths in the first game and a literal death in Bayo 2) Now we both characters get killed, over.. And over and over again. It's just a major slap in the face throughout, but thankfully it was sorta alluded that everyone lives - including Bayonetta (and Luka). We better get a teaser of Luka waking Bayonetta in the Avalon forest, but it would be nice to revisit Inferno.

[@chrisossu2070]

It's only speculation and potentially unfounded at that, but it's possible that Devil May Cry 5's announcement and subsequent success may have led to Bayonetta 3's current state. When DMC5 effectively polished the character action formula to a sheen for most people, it wouldn't seem like enough if Bayo 3 was just another very good action game, which probably prompted Platinum to go back to the drawing board a good ways in to development to try to bring something that could make Bayo 3 more distinct. Of course, the scars of a production that effectively restarted so close to the looming deadline are very plain to see.

[@gsifdgsgs]

At this point only thing we can is speculate things. But my own thought is I feel like they focused on too much to make the game semi-open world and when they realize switch couldn't handle that or it didn't work like they thought, it was too late so they had to scrap everything and redesign most of the game so I think that's why most of the story feels rushed

[@Mudkip971]

You should play Bayonetta Origins, it's a much better experience than 3 and actually explains stuff missing from this.

[@akumayoxiruma]

Now that 'Bayonetta Origins: Cereza and the Lost Demon' is out, kind of eclipses this game in emotional impact and even fixes some plot holes, are you going to talk about it too?

[@egebamyasi2929]

Love the Demon Slave mechanic. It the logical conclusion on how to up the ante because in 1 & 2 I always wondered "Why doesn't she just summon her demon immediately if that's what decides most boss fights anyways?" Not only is the command queue a great feature, they even have interwaving mechanics (For example using the Spider to make fire and then use the Birds tornado to make a fire tornado) which you didn't mention. Agree with the rest for the most part. I guess the lackluster environments/dithering/other graphical issues could've been mentioned but it depends on ones priorities.

[@Juwce_86]

The dithering is a huge issue but without it the game would run even worse on the switch. It's one of those shortcuts that we are dammed with and damned without it.

[@Jodariel.]

For as sad as i am that now my favorite game will never see a part 4, i'm also glad the manchild can't ruin Bayo even more. I can just ignore Bayo 3 was ever a thing.

[@ecru_5819]

Okay Now I get it- It seems like they focused more on the battle system and flashy appeal to the point where the story took the passenger seat, to the backseat, to the trunk, then got left at Best Buy altogether. I definitely love the combat system and the music and the well...flashy appeal. I loved 1 and 2 But 3? Now that's it's been explained to me like this, it's not a good feeling. I still love the bombastic nature of it, but it's a pretty massive betrayal of all the characters and a very action movie template with all the same stakes and fates.

[@SomeSprites]

I'm glad to see another excellent review on this game, you perfectly deconstruct my thoughts about it.

[@minecraftotalwar]

Finallyyyyy, a reviewer who understands the game’s combat

[@corn2454]

I'm not gonna get super into personal details but Despite only waiting a few months for Bayo 3 since I played 1 in 2022, it's probably one of the most dissappointing games I've ever played. I have plenty of issues with the gameplay, but the biggest thing that does kill me is the story since Bayonetta actively has become personally important to me and the character herself has been somewhat aspirational to me. The aesthetic, subject matter, and gameplay just clicked amazingly for me, and that's why I was HYPE for 3. Then I played something that felt like it assassinated one of my favorite characters EVER, but also felt like something from another series. I hope the series improves past this and recaptures what I loved about the first 2 games

[@ismokemadherb4677]

I look forward to your videos more than most creator's. Looking forward to your take on bayo 3. Keep up the great content and keep up the awesomeness.

[@Richterbelmont96]

At the end of the day, I like to think of bayonetta 3 like platinum's Metroid other m: A really fun game, but with a lot of missed potential when it comes to storylines. (EDIT) Ok so, I originally wrote this comment around a minute before the nod to metroid other M was done near the end of the video....

[@cpl.targrein1793]

Writing was never the strongest trait in Bayonetta games, but it was never this lame. Platinum should have given Viola major development ark in the end, exactly like the one Nero got. I'm disappointed.

[@rohansensei5708]

Bayonetta 3 is the DmC:Devil May Cry of Bayonetta series

[@DrNunez-n8i]

Great video as always. There are a couple of other things I would like add regarding Viola and the comparisons to Nero. I do agree that Viola does seem to be loosely based on him conceptually but not only do I think they missed the mark with her character arc they did so with her gameplay. At the end of the game where she fights the ghost version of her mother you unlock one final weapon but instead of giving it to her it goes to Bayonetta. This really fucking baffled me considering Bayonetta already had 11 other weapons to work with and just shows the dev team put too much emphasis on her and almost none at all with her daughter. They could've at least thrown her a bone even if it was at the last second. When Nero was introduced in DMC4 he was designed to be a much simpler character than Dante since he didn't unlock Devil Arms but he did have was a decent base to go off of. In the sequel I feel like Capcom did a really good job at expanding his gameplay by introducing the Devil Breakers. It added a lot more depth to his gameplay while simultaneously making him feel unique from Dante. Viola doesn't seem to expand much at all from her original gameplan besides getting an admittedly powerful DT. Which is frustrating because there are things to like about her but it seems like the dev team just didn't want to commit. Also lastly I'm one of the few people that was actually fine with Bayo X Luka mostly because I remember their dynamic in the 1st game. Seriously the sexual tension between those 2 was so thick you can cut it with a knife. I get the feeling that it was always Kamiya's intention to get the 2 to hook up eventually though I do agree they should've have approached it a lot better. Though writing was never his strong suit.

[@Kirby-ms4cf]

I think them making new characters limited in terms of movesets is so that if they ever decide to revisit the character, they know what base issues to tackle. They also probably don't want to be too ambitious either, in case the character ends up poorly received initially from a gameplay standpoint and they end up putting effort into a character that people would be disinclined to play. Nero got a few things to polish his gameplay in his debut game, like his Devil Trigger and the way it worked compared to Dante's. Of course, after they saw the praises and criticisms of Nero's gameplay in 4, they knew what to improve in 5 and now he's a lot more refreshing to play due to the Devil Breakers. Viola only really gets an instant win button, which is sort of boring. Press L3+R3 and spam the hell out of Y. It doesn't really contribute anything new or meaningful to her original moveset, it just bandaids the issue of people who find her too hard to use effectively. I feel like there was way too much direction with not enough committing in Bayo 3, personally. It's like they wanted this game to be the big risk taker but then realized that they wanted to stay in their comfort zone later, which is why the whole "Taking up the mantle as the original characters die off" thing feels so absurdly rushed and probably why (apparently) the next Bayonetta game is *still* going to be about Cereza. Even in DMC4's ending Dante was still confirmed to be out there doing his own jobs; Nero just got to join in on the fun too.

[@thegreygoblin5165]

I actually love Multiverse stories in most things but this game handles it so poorly. I wish they went a little more wild, fuck just 'Japanese Bayo' or 'Chinese Bayo' but let's go a little more out there. Give me a Lumen sage Bayo, a male Bayo with Dante's va, A bayo from a world where the witch hunts either never happened or failed. Hell, I'd make the villain either an evil Bayo or a coven of Umbran witches causing trouble across the multiverse, I'd love to fight an evil witch as Bayo(there was Jeanne in 1 but she's obviously not evil.) and I think that'd be a better villain than toothpaste men. Have summoned demons and monstrous abominations created through Umbran magic.

[@seandaley8350]

I feel like another reason why the game felt so weird was Bayonetta continuously dying, when in previous games she was incredibly OP and always had fun bodying angels. I also felt weird with the demon slaves because it took the charm away from climax’s in boss fights when that was the main moments we saw the demons, and it was always a fun button-mashing cutscene like the golem climax in Bayo 1. Lastly Viola was such a strange inclusion with the rest of the cast, where they all have sarcasm, charm, and humor Viola has… clumsiness but unlike Luka where it was actually funny and enjoyable situations she just continuously drops her sword.

[@xtoadsannom6704]

I wonder if Kamiya & Co are tired of the character action genre and that's why they're chasing trends, so to speak ? From what I understand, the studio was created so that the creators could try new things... but now they're a niche studio specialized in a specific genre. Unrelated, but some of the rumors about Obsidian's Avowed's development really makes it look like they tried to pull a Scalebound but without Microsoft's intervention, and I find that strange.

[@KingofAwesomness14]

ya know, i think the combat of 3 was really good, but Bayo 1 and 2 did a really good job of keeping up the themes, hotness, and so much of the series and what people loved about it. like the designs of 1 and 2 from the characters to the enemies are still so fire. THEN YOU HAVE 3'S BLAND JUST...EVERYTHING! When was Bayo supposed to be bland?! Why?! That's just dumb!

[@e63190]

This was such a great analysis video and really put to words a lot of the problems I had with this game. Another thing I want to add is that the overall way bayo 3 acts seems watered down and tame compared to bayo 1/2. Take the opening cutscene of the games for example. In bayo 1 she is leaping at enemies with her legs wide open and dancing on a pole as she fights. in bayo 2 she "rides" an angel and does split kicks. Bayo 3 has the brief outfit reveal all the games has then she just... fights. Theres none of the campy action or wacky poses other bayo games have. This is true through the whole game. Bayo 3 is certainly a badass but there are none of the funny sexy scenes we are used to from the other games. idk having such a blatantly funny and sexy bayo felt like such a staple for her character (I mean the joy fight in bayo 1 permanently changed my brain chemistry lol) but this new one is just so much less fun :/

[@Dorrovian]

Platinum really seems to be in shambles in recent times. Scalebound and Babylon's Fall are strongly discussed, but for me the fact that Cygames decided to take Granblue ReLink from them and develop it from scratch internally is real sign of something being extremely mismanaged at company. While with Scalebound we don't know who is at fault between MS and Platinum, ArcSystems had developed Granblue Versus (very nice game!) at the same time Platinum failed at ReLink, so it is rather indicative of Cygames being in the right and Platinum at fault.

[@Tekh09]

I believe with Scalebound Kamiya actually came out and said Platinum was completely at fault there, and for fans to stop badgering Microsoft about it.

[@scalicali8073]

Platinum did Nier:Automata and Astral Chain both awesome and successful recent games, also Bayonetta 3 is a really good and polished game when it comes to gameplay, I believe they aren't in shambles

[@Dorrovian]

​@@scalicali8073 Nier Automata was made with SE, so this is little different. No idea about Astral Chain. And even video we are discussing it under cast a long shade on that "polished gameplay" of Bayo 3 ;)

[@scalicali8073]

@@Dorrovian Babylon's Fall was also done with SE

[@Dorrovian]

@@scalicali8073 Babylon's Fall was done by Platinum games and published by SE. Nier: Automata was done with Yoko Taro at helm, so this is coproduction. There is big difference between these two.

[@Jeikobu]

My opinion on Viola, is that Platinum has already basically perfected the moveset in the past in MGR with Raiden, so getting what we got really disappointed me.

[@BlazeMakesGames]

Just because I'm curious about how our thoughts may align or differ I wanna put my thoughts down as I start the video before I hear your opinions on it and then I may come back to edit this comment at the end after I get to the part labelled "Ending Complaints" lol. My personal problem with the ending isn't that Bayo Dies. It isn't that Viola takes over as the new Bayo, and it isn't even that Bayo and Luka hook up, (even though everyone universally agrees that Bayo and Jeanne have way more chemistry). The real problem is just that the writing is absolute garbage. None of these ideas are inherently terrible. I know this because I also played Devil May Cry 5 just like the devs of Bayo 3 clearly did lol. But for real, like the real issue is that the ending is almost entire incoherent. Luka's werewolf powers are never explained in any way that makes sense. Lukon's weird fae king thing just kinda comes out of nowhere and then he serves as a deus ex machina to save Luka at one point. Bayo and Luka share zero romantic scenes throughout the game and then suddenly at the end they're just so in love that they're willing to die in each other's arms. Also Jeanne's death is downright disrespectful. It's one thing when you're killing off inconsequential characters that don't matter. The other Bayo deaths are badly written, but at least they don't really impact the story at large. They exist to be killed off and that's it. But Jeanne is an important character, especially when the entire previous game was about saving her life. And then they just murder her in 2 seconds with a backstab from a guy in a wheelchair!? Like, again, the issue isn't that she dies, it's that her death is seemingly meaningless. She doesn't go down with a fight and she doesn't actually accomplish anything of note. Even the enemies she was fighting were just a distraction since they were never actually going to kill sigurd or the tech. Like Egyptian Bayo is unironically the best written death in the game. It's not exactly oscar worthy but it gets one thing right. Namely that the character dies accomplishing something. Our bayo is the one that fucks up for a change and she's going to fall into the black hole, and she sacrifices herself to save our Bayo. It's really simple and not exactly complicated, but the simple fact that she at least does something that affects the story before she dies is at least a sign of competent writing. Meanwhile Jeanne accomplishes literally nothing for the entire game because it was all a plan by the big bad from the start. And that's really the core issue with all the other deaths. None of the characters that die actually do anything during their death to make it meaningful. It's entirely just "whoops the big bad snuck up on me after the boss fight and I died". Like there's a really simple and easy way imo that all the deaths could have been written to be better. Take that summoning ritual that Bayo does where she rips out her own heart, and make that ritual be a 1 time thing that 100% kills you at the end. It's a hail mary that gives you a massive power boost, but then the demon gets to eat your soul or whatever. But then how do we get a cool boss fight at the end of every stage? Well have the other Bayos be the one to use the summon! And bam suddenly all the shitty alternate bayo deaths become way way cooler! You fight the big bad and beat him, but then he pulls out his trump card and enters his ultimate form, so the bayo of that universe realizing that this is bigger than her, performs the ritual, maybe to our Bayo's dismay, and then we get the big super demon boss fight and we beat him. But then because they literally ripped their heart out, that universe's Bayo dies and we move on to the next world. This solves a few problems: A) Now the random Bayo Deaths are actually meaningful because they're all sacrificing themselves to have the cool boss fight B) the giant summons now feel more justified, because as it is it feels weird that Bayo can just seemingly do this over and over when if she just summoned a 2000 foot tall Madama Butterfly at the start each level would have been over way faster lol And finally we can even apply this to the ending. Now Jeanne maybe gets backstabbed still, but instead of dying instantly, now *she* performs the ritual (and ideally we get a boss fight controlling her) and uses that to sacrifice herself and buy Bayo more time to make it back to the primary universe to fight the final boss. If we don't want to add more content we could probably have the Boss fight against the fortress where you control Madama Butterfly be replaced with this playing as Jeanne against a fortress in the primary universe or something. And finally at the end, have our Bayo be the one to do the ritual in order to save everyone else and finally beat Singularity once and for all or whatever. It'd at least make it feel better than "whoops she got sliced by a dragon" There's still other problems to resolve, like explaining why Luka is a werewolf and giving Viola something cool to do. But honestly the former literally just needs Lukon to give like 20 seconds of exposition instead of just being weird and mysterious. And Viola can just have a literal copy-pasted version of one of the phases of the boss against Bayo where you play as Viola instead and that would dramatically improve both other aspects of the game.

[@NightwalkersReprisal]

Let's not forget that Bayonetta gets fisted in the chest by an enraged Luka in the Alphaverse and she not only doesn't instantly die from having every single organ pierced and her spine severed, she continues to talk to Luka and simply heals herself through some unknown power. Jeanne gets hit by a dinky little lightsaber and she turns into red crystal meth. Jeanne is supposed to be an equal to Bayonetta in all respects, and yet still somehow gets killed despite being in a state of battle awareness to protect "Doctor Sigurd". Fucking... make this make sense challenge (Impossible)

[@kkdmamut1999]

The king is back

[@turnerbrawley4715]

Glad you returned and Arkham city retrospective when?

[@didodkdk]

AFTER FANS HAVE WAITED 5 YEARS FOR A NEW GAME YOU DONT LEAVE IT ON A CLIFFHANGER

[@planescaped]

"Initally Bayonetta 3 was intended to be semi open-world" I knew it! Thule really seemed underutilized and like it was meant to be a lot more originally... And Bayonetta 3's multiverse really had only bad implications for the series going forward. It has really cheapened and confused everything.

[@sorensharp4377]

Honestly I think it would've been really cool it was open world. It's so clear that's what they were going for and maybe it would've been weird but it would've been different. The game feels so short as it is, I think open world exploration could've added a lot.

[@MACZ2021]

I'VE BEEN WAITING FOR THIS!