The Conflicted Design of Rainbow 6 Siege

[@Mostenire]

I apologize in advance if my commentary on gunplay and gadget design wasn't nearly as substantial as the other sections. I've never been super deep into PvP FPS games with more complex iterations of those mechanics, so I didn't have much to compare or base it off of. The most I could say was that I liked it, it was simple, and that it worked.

[@mrf1213]

Siege has no competition. Even if a clone came out, the iconic characters have been out for so long, some for almost a decade. Only thing we can hope for is a siege 2, built with a new engine. But that's probably never going to happen.

[@ididntaskverified3663]

A swat multiplayer game that shifted its design philosophy to listening to the professionals killed the game for the casual audience. Even after the savior of siege jynxi revived it, the player count is at an all time low again. Ubisoft is a failed company. This is a live service game now 😂. A underbaked siege 2 with this philosophy would be dead within 2 years

[@bamanbanana8834]

“I shouldn’t be alive” DVD and a lethal dose of adderall over Siege lore anyday

[@Sneeek]

I dont think the gridlock - grim comparison is very good. Gridlocks role is to help secure flanks, similar to nomad or a claymore. It is easy to deal with her gadget, but every method comes with a tradeoff. Either you destroy the stingers which makes sound and costs either time or resources (time for shooting or resource for impact nade), or it costs damage by you just walking through them. The gadget takes a looong time to activate fully. If you throw them offensively, any good player will just shoot them out. And its effectively wasted. Otherwise so far good video, im enjoying it! I think people online complain too much about siege without presenting any actual reasons or arguments, so its nice to see someone actually speak positively about the game.

[@Mostenire]

thank you! yeah, the comparison wasn't actually the best. the general idea in my head was that every gadget could at least be seen as a varied execution of the same base concept. i'm not necessarily the best at game design examination or anything - i mainly just wanted to talk about one of my favourite games, especially among all of the vindictive hate and anger i see online about it all the time :)

[@chokishin2038]

Yes “defiantly” siege is changing with “buffs”

[@mozzarella4140]

such a master piece of a video, keep up the good work

[@RiffSilverthe1andonly]

Very well done video deserves more views

[@veteranhamster7410]

I never understood all the Stadium hate myself. Personally, i believe that if Stadium had nothing to do with Esports or Pros it would've been much more popular.

[@TheRealDurge]

Y'all remember when he was Gregor and not G's gaming experience?

[@Mostenire]

G's trans.

[@TheRealDurge]

So why not Gregorina or smth

[@Mostenire]

@@TheRealDurge she goes by gwen.

[@TheRealDurge]

Nah that ain't if chief, homie gotta cook up a better name

[@Micah-senkrupe]

​@@Mostenire when the hell did that happen?

[@thakingjulian420]

really good video man i wish the best for ur channel

[@yago9636]

Despite I dont agree in many things you say, it has been a great time watching this video, and also felt unique how you speak about certain topics. Awesome video, thank you!

[@Mostenire]

happy to hear that! thank you :)

[@huitingloke3562]

YAYYY NEW UPLOAD

[@jowell6921]

40:40 that music... hits differently

[@aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaarbo]

this is gonna be a banger

[@LizardWizard403]

Meh Operator design/pick used to matter before. Now most of my games consist of which team has the better aim/ reaction time. Either attackers rush site most of the time and try to gun down every one or defenders run around the map peaking every door and window.

[@AmelpsXett]

it still matters a lot. The reason your games consist of "which team has the better aim/ reaction time" is because you have poor intel game.

[@Lejobub1409]

One of the best hidden declarations of love I've seen. People who didn't play Siege couldn't grasp this twisted relationship with this game. Thanks for this video.

[@Mostenire]

@@Lejobub1409 thank you! siege is definitely one of those games people have a strong love-hate relationship with. it’s a flawed, messy product but it’s still one of my favourite games ever.

[@Lejobub1409]

@Mostenire same for me, invested more than 3k hours in the game and play it more frequently than all other games

[@barnywantsabus]

WOOP im in a mostenire video what what!!!! awesome analysis as always 🧑‍🍳

[@tander101]

Ooo the Rainbow Six Vegas 2 theme 😮

[@alsie4851]

No joke the reason you can’t look all the way down vertical is because it would actually be possible to tk yourself by shooting you’re feet

[@ZeroNeedsCoffee]

This was such a good video. What do you think about valorant compared to rainbow?

[@Mostenire]

@@ZeroNeedsCoffee i’m glad you enjoyed it! valorant feels like a game designed to appeal to as wide an audience as possible. easy-going fun sci-fi vibe similar to overwatch, absolutely spectacular animation work (those skin reloads and individual character moves are genuinely amazing), and a whole bunch of super-expensive skins for people to spend money on. CS gunplay with OW gadgets to cast a net in both audiences. riot’s infamous ALLCAPSTEXT // TWO SLASHES style to feel like a high-tier esports game as quickly as possible. it’s hard to compare val to siege because the circumstances around their creation were so different. val was designed for esports hype and huge mainstream appeal first and foremost, while siege sort of drifted in that direction without initially intending to do so. as such val is a much more polished and balanced game - it has to be because of its tightness - but i can’t really enjoy it in the way i can enjoy siege. valorant also feels stylistically and mechanically unoriginal in an unfortunate way. all of its agents have to share the same character rig and animation set for competitive viability, which severely damages the ‘quirky hero shooter’ vibe it tries to give off. siege works with this because it doesn’t go as hard on the style. it’s why valorant agents look INCREDIBLE in their cinematic animations and their 2D artwork, but so much more lifeless ingame, and that’s a big hit to its identity and feeling. tl;dr valorant is more balanced because it’s tighter and more focused, but that tightness means it’s lacking in a lot of its stylistic soul and dynamic creativity compared to siege.

[@sirlagsalot1050]

My main issue with the balancing is that it feels like the balancing team doesn't care all that much about fun. Take the recent R4C nerf that reduced its capacity from 30+1 to 25+1. What was the point of this? It doesn't make Ash or Ram any less lethal, while just making them more fustrating to play as. An enemy player is rarely going to notice that you have five less bullets, and a good player does not need 30+1 bullets to win a gunfight. It also doesn't match the magazine modelled in game. I think it was to incentivise using the G36C, but then why not buff that gun? By itself, who cares? But over the years you end up with a character like Jager who has a kit that is entirely outclassed by Aruni and Wamai because of his constant nerfs. His gun is statistically bad even on defence, and his gadget is at best niche and at worst never worth bringing over any other projectile denial. He's not even a three speed anymore, and his secondary gadget choices have also been nerfed. There is no reason to ever run Jager. Personally, I would increase his speed again to encourage roaming, which is a playstyle you can't really do on Wamai and Aruni. This same thing has also happened with Zofia vs Ash, and to a lesser extent Twitch vs Brava with the gutting of their assault rifles. Thunderbird vs Doc too, with Thunderbird's kit being entirely nerfed except her AR, probably only because it's tied to Finka. I think we're seeing this again now, with most Ash players swapping to Buck. Calling it now, Buck will get nerfed in a soon coming patch because of this. It's a never ending cycle. We need significantly less nerfs and far more buffs for Siege to remain as fun to play. Especially on the attacker side.

[@xLeeroycranex]

Good video and analysis. I think Siege is one of the most special games I've ever played due to it scratching an itch that no other game can. Unfortunately, the bloated nature of 70-100 operators and somewhat shifting meta means it's harder for people to get into it but I think Ubisoft needs to realize the Gold they're sitting on. It's made them a billion or two dollars so far that it deserves to be studied, expanded, and improved upon over the next several years. Siege isn't COD but COD makes billions off its single player campaigns that it's simply a good path to follow in order to grow the franchise. For example, I do wonder if Siege can make mid-budget "Story DLCs" with co-op PvE and multiplayer style PvP where you can select and pick basic tools (ex. Sledge's hammer/Jaeger's ADS/Ash's Launcher/etc) on a destructible multiplayer map....basically, its own game (with Siege being gifted alongside it for first time players). That way, it can BOTH work to facilitate players towards Siege and to build up the brand recognition. Lore-wise, I think, Siege has jumped the shark but, in that case, why not embrace that "grounded tactical" concept but make it like a GI Joe type world but for an older audience? That way, they're constantly fighting pirates, rogue PMCs, low level gangs, organized crime, authoritarian armies, cultists, terrorists, militias, and corrupt black ops units. Basically, take the Modern Warfare series and their concepts but upped to that "John Wick 20" that you mentioned. If you're fighting pirates, you can say...."Not Somalia" is filled with no opportunities and it drives many of these pirates into their lifestyle which causes the various characters you select to remark on that statement with their own takes on tha. If you're conducting a black op against a rogue nation and its military forces, you can showcase things like dictators going after civies while hiding a stash of gold bars or something under his mansion....before fighting tanks and an attack helicopter as a boss or something. Stuff like that can bring Siege back to its roots while making it engaging.

[@Mostenire]

Thank you! I agree - I feel the game's bloat is unfixable, and the best they can do is to lean into that size and spectacle in its tone.

[@AmelpsXett]

its not bloated, every operator has its specific niche. The reason its hard to get it in is because people dont think. When they get an issue, they dont think who can solve it, they just go face first

[@stonec0ldkill919]

Hells gate theme spotted👀

[@fintonioclips]

We gotta get Jynxzi to react to this

[@sykrotima9528]

Alright here we go, Gunplay is great but Ubisoft fucks it up with mediocre balancing. Even worse with gadgets, primary and secondary. Remember when Zofia and Ash were too picked and they butchered the recoil for near a year on both primaries ? The major conflict of Siege is Ubisoft, they have basically only listen to pro-league and their straight stupid balancing graph. The game is heavily defender sided, and has only gotten worse over time with many waves of « balancing » changes. Operator design goes out thé fckn window because of said balancing. Siege is great and has a lot of potential still, but Ubisoft holds it back, especially as they are no longer creative with their balancing changes. (Y9 as a whole is a perfect example so far.)

[@Mostenire]

I think a major part of the issue is bloat. They’ve got to get their balancing in order but with the sheer quantity of stuff to account for they have to resort to bandaids instead so they can keep regularly releasing content. ‘Operation Health 2’ may sound overly simplistic but it definitely feels in order. The issue is people will complain regardless, both at a lack of new content and at a lack of balancing.

[@AmelpsXett]

"Gunplay is great but Ubisoft fucks it up with mediocre balancing." wild, biased and uneducated take "they have basically only listen to pro-league and their straight stupid balancing graph." thats a common myth. They dont. Its silly to even assume they do that in a company with 21K employees. Developer interviews show that pros opinions are only secondary

[@matteobrozzi1812]

Nice video

[@AHeroAlmost]

I’d love to get into Siege but I’m way too behind to catch up 😮‍💨

[@Echo2k_]

what skin is that mpx 2:41

[@kamingleung3792]

worked by hardworking and talented people? If talented means Nerfing the whole Ash's kit for 4 years and she's still having the highest pick/win rate then sure. But I will call them brain dead idiots instead

[@MatsYoo]

"ubisoft has crafted some of the most visually impressive setpieces in gaming" i want this guys crack.

[@Mostenire]

ubisoft has screwed up many things but i don't think it's a hot take that hope county, versailles, and kyrat are some of the most visually beautiful gaming worlds ever. i'd say they focus on visuals to a fault because it takes away from time that could've been spent on actual good content within them.

[@Hexic101]

Great video, I hope it does well. I have no idea who they're even appealing to anymore, the maps are bad, the ops are (mostly) bad, they keep telling the same old tired lie about "not being able to add new guns" and the battle pass content still mostly sucks. Sometimes it feels like the only people they've successfully appealed to are the LGBTQ crowd, which in my experience is a very niche (and unfortunately unwelcome by a huge portion of the playerbase) group of players anyway. I appreciate the inclusivity, but is it really hard to make operators that are visually appealing or tacticool like Ram?

[@Mostenire]

I don't necessarily think the representation has been particularly forced or heavy-handed, since the concept of Rainbow itself is focused around diversity. I'll agree that they're unfortunately very poorly looked at by a big portion of the fanbase, and it means it's hard to critique their designs / representation without it leading to homophobia. I think that Tubarao and Flores are excellent examples of LGBTQ rep while maintaining some form of semi-realism. Sens, on the other hand, is such a bad character design that I'm almost convinced it's a psyop to make LGBT people look bad.

[@AmelpsXett]

1. the maps arent bad, you're bad. They're good enough for pros but somehow not for you? 2. New ops are all specialists. Thats why they're bad for you in particular 3. They cant add new guns because there isnt a niche for new guns. The newest gun is almost completely a 416 reskin

[@Hexic101]

@@AmelpsXett I am very good at the maps and I find them easy to win on, when I say the maps are bad I mean they're shit to play. Emerald Plains will never be in comp map pool, and nighthaven labs is a shit map most teams kept as their permaban. So I have no idea what you mean. Also when I say the ops are bad I don't just mean gadget, I mean flavor and lore wise also. They look like ass. Also yeah the new gun is terrible, but they just.. aren't creative. It's not hard. As if there can only be one P10 roni or something. They've tried the zero recoil AR on defense like 4 times

[@AmelpsXett]

@@Hexic101 "I am very good at the maps" lmao cue in curb your enthusiasm theme "Nighthaven is a shit map most teams kept as their permaban" lmao literally not true. It's played very often. It's literally just your bias and fantasies Also the gun is "uncreative" because all niches have been filled already, no truly new can be created

[@rohana.7760]

For years you have been known as “Mostenire”. A name I bequeathed upon you, for its meaning, inheritance, foretold the greatness that you would one day know. Many moons came to pass whilst I awaited the realization of your storied potential. Kingdoms rose and fell. Even I, a god in full, began to grey as the memory of the day I named you by royal decree began to fade from my mind. Still keenly I have watched you as you have floundered about, for the glimmer of greatness I first saw in your eye never did fade. Hark! Behold! Hear hear! Raise your thumbs toward the sky in rapture! Feel the full force of holy salvation! The one who was destined to inherit greatness has achieved that which the prophecies spoke of! Mostenire has created his masterpiece, and unfurled have his wings! See their intricacy! Their grandeur! Soon he shall ascend to the throne, and as such requires he a name to befit his highness, his nobility. A name which reflects not only his future, his glorious, storied future that brings tears to the eyes of the prophets whom see it clearest, but also his past, with its tribulations and flounderings, and his struggles to find his promised inheritance. O lord, O master, O foretold king, I name thee… Master Nire!

[@infectedbait5693]

1 shot headshot is not necessary at all, and is currently an old aspect of the game which is dated and should be removed to level out gunplay and gadget play. The gunplay atm is clunky and the ttk is far too low with 1shs, making the gameplay extremely slow but gunplay fast and duels lasting a millisecond

[@infectedbait5693]

This is taking into account - gadgets - because removing 1shs wouldn't ultimately destroy their purpose or cruciality. Just because 1shs is gone doesnt mean you can rush past kapkhan traps, ela mines, thorn pines, gu mines, airjabs etc etc etc. You cant sit on an electrified wall, tank a thermite charge or run through a claymore. Yes the gadgets of siege are a primary aspect that are crucial to the flow of the game, but 1shs going away doesnt remove their importance. Also as the alternative to 1shs, nothing else would change except, make headshots double dmg to encourage headshots, helping the skill ceiling - this however would probably mean some guns would need to be tweaked for this change (thorns smg/ar for example).

[@ricardofontes8437]

28:00 I disagree lol. Skopos is literally a real representation of the real world. We already use drone technology, and everything. In terms of futurism, Finka with its nanotechnology, or even Even Kayd, IQ and some others have more technological gadgets.

[@Mostenire]

@@ricardofontes8437 that’s… what i said? ‘scopos is a very real representation of an up-and-coming aspect of military & police work’.

[@AmelpsXett]

thats what he said. He even compared it to Boston Dynamics. Nothing stops them form strapping a gun to Atlas.

[@ricardofontes8437]

@@Mostenire oh I'm sorry ahauahua! I got it completely wrong.

[@varsityreviews707]

I was with you for most of the video but you lost me at siege being designed for PvP. Nothing in old versions of Siege support this statement, in fact, old Siege itself contradicts this statement by all the things in old Siege. I even have a quote from the creative director who said that the intention of Siege while they were developing it was to take the ideas of the old Rainbow Six games, and bring it to a multiplayer environment, that being either a COOP setting, or a competitive setting.

[@Mostenire]

It feels odd to say 'old Siege contradicts this statement' when old Siege released as a dead game with no story besides half-baked situations that served as glorified tutorials. The game has always been a multiplayer shooter. To me, Siege was always a multiplayer game made from the remnants of what would've been Patriots.

[@varsityreviews707]

@@Mostenire Multiplayer, not competitive. THunt was the most popular mode in the Vegas games, and was the iconic mode of the franchise. The reason why THunt in old Siege, why the maps were designed the way they were in old Siege, was for THunt. It was supposed to be a multiplayer-esc sandbox with people playing COOp and Comp in tandem with each other.

[@Mostenire]

@@varsityreviews707 ah, I see. I'm still not fully certain whether any form of PvE was ever in mind the moment Patriots was scrapped, but I can see it being a thing. I always saw Article 5 and Containment being all Ubisoft ever developed or considered for multiplayer PvE in Siege.

[@varsityreviews707]

@@Mostenire There was more mechanics in the old version of THunt than necessary for a game that wasn't supposed to have PvE. Hostage and bomb played differently, the highest difficulty on Elimination had spawn waves for the AI to flood the building, there were a group of heavily armored bombers who'd rush your position and blow up, but their vests could be disabled, nitro cells and barbed wire would spawn in various rooms and hallways, etc. Were there plans for post launch support? I don't know. Were they ever intending on adding more to expand the lore of Siege? I don't know. Was the designed to only be PvP? If that was always the plan and THunt was always meant to be like what the Drill mode in Siege right now is, they did the worst way possible because THunt played NOTHING like multiplayer.

[@tombryant5453]

great video, more views and subs should come SHARPISH or else yt is truly cooked

[@emsxryan]

good vid but how is valorant lore goofy? siege lore just isn’t very good.

[@bulldogmicro4279]

This video is pretty wrong. Gadgets dont matter that much it's more like CoD but with a little twist. Thanks to 200ms ttk and one shot headshot whoever has the faster shooting gun, wins. Who needs skillful aim when you can swipe left and right with say the vector (1,200rpm). This game is much harder in terms of aim because in csgo theres very few angles to clear. In this game there's so many rat angles, off angles, and pixel peeks. Csgo has very few head glitches. Siege has head glitches and lean peeks that only expose 1/3rd of somebodies head. Combined that with a defender with a high RoF acog gun, and its almost impossible to win the gunfight. CSGO is more skill based where siege is more luck, and positioning.

[@Mostenire]

hmmm. if only there was some way to find these rat angles, or to predict these pixel peeks. maybe a... device of some sort. a gadget, if you will.