The Curious Case of Bret Saberhagen

[@michaelreimer951]

I recall him saying after throwing a pitch, he looked up to see the speed and it was recorded as a changeup. He said he then knew it was time to hang it up as he threw the ball as hard as he could. He will always be a great in my book.

[@jimwerther]

Great story

[@zqrahll]

You should have also mentioned Saberhagen's control. His strike out to walk ratio is 31st all time, ahead of most HoF pitchers.

[@frankpalancio8471]

In the late 80's before a game in NY, i counted the warm up tosees of Sabes in the bullpen before a game. He threw over 100 pitches. Don't remember the # exactly, but it was over 100. You can guess how long he lasted...pulled in the 2nd or 3rd inning.

[@michaelgladman9087]

If you’re considering Saberhagen, you have to put Orel Hershiser in the mix. He went 204 and 150, with a 3.48 ERA, a 56.0 WAR, and 2014 Ks. He also put up one of the all-time great seasons in 1988, when he went 23 and 8 with a 2.26 ERA, won the Cy Young, broke Drysdale’s consecutive scoreless inning streak, and carried the Dodgers to a World Series championship. He was also a post-season monster throughout his career, as he won an NLCS MVP, ALCS MVP, and a World Series MVP (can’t imagine anyone else has ever accomplished that trifecta but haven’t looked it up), while going 8 and 3 with a 2.59 ERA. Plus, he was a helluva competitor and teammate.

[@walkoffstudios]

The funny thing is, Hershiser probably should have won one of the 87 or 89 Cy Young, if not both. If he has two CYs, let alone three, he might have gotten a ton more support on his initial ballot. Need to make a video about him.

[@michaelgladman9087]

@@walkoffstudios That would be awesome--would love to see it.

[@jimwerther]

Both Hershiser and David Cone should be in.

[@big8dog887]

Having grown up in the '80s, Saberhagen was one of an insane number of pitchers who "felt" like surefire future Hall of Famers who, mostly due to injuries, never accumulated the counting stats. Fernando Valenzuela, Orel Hershiser, Dwight Gooden, David Cone, Frank Viola, and Dave Stieb come to mind. Ironically, the only primarily '80s starter who did make it, Jack Morris, wasn't as good.

[@rogerliu3939]

Yea he is !

[@MeneTekelUpharsin]

Jack Morris was five times top 5 CY that means a lot because he pitched longer.

[@rogerliu3939]

@@MeneTekelUpharsin jack morris 1991 world series vs twin he's fighter still touch my heart !

[@dzanier]

At his best, Morris wasn’t as good as any of those you mentioned when they were at their best. But Morris, from 79-92, only once won less than 14 games. In some of those years was several times above 4 and never lower than 3.05. But he won, threw loads of innings, and 12 times had double-digit complete games. He also won 20 twice. He was the type of pitcher who would get CG and wins even giving up 4 or more runs. Wins matter, doesn’t matter how you get them.

[@deepcosmiclove]

Morris was better than all those guys.

[@georgeriley4818]

The sad thing is he doesn't even get the same respect among non Hall of Famers like Don Mattingly, Doc Gooden, Dale Murphy, and Keith Hernandez

[@matthicksxx]

Great video. Saberhagen is the youngest player to be named World Series MVP (21 years, 199 days when he won it in 1985)

[@astrostar49]

Thanks for sharing this video. I learn more, and more everytime you drop a production.

[@billcook4768]

He’s 40 wins and 400 strikeouts behind a borderline HOFer? No, doesn’t belong in. But he does have one amazing stat. In 1994 he had 14 wins. And 13 walks.

[@williamcollins8098]

Brett Saberhagen is in the Royal's hall of fame, inducted in 2005.Those stats don't lie

[@300gjw]

Yes. Injuries for pitchers need to be considered. He was dominant in his era.

[@chaplainsouzaresiliencymessage]

Met him in Kuwait. He is much bigger than I thought. George Brett, Reggie Sanders and Mike Sweeney there also.

[@sman000]

One of the most impressive stats was his 1994, more wins than walks

[@kyuballer333]

I was very much on the fence but generally leaning to not hof worthy until you did the comparison to Roy halladay 🤯 Loved this content. Subscribed!

[@walkoffstudios]

Thanks for your support

[@HueyRocks23]

He did make an appearance on "Married...with Children" alongside Danny Tartabull, who's not in the HOF either. But then: Steve Carlton, Mike Piazza, Joe Morgan, Dave Winfield, Ernie Banks, Frank Thomas, and Johnny Bench all appeared on the show and are in the HOF.

[@binghamtonblows]

Danny tartabull got around. Married WC and a couple Seinfeld appearances. Screw the HOF, give the guy a star on the walk of fame

[@MrDuran9000]

I will not argue your case sir but, I think of Mr Luis Tiant! Mr Saberhagen was the best in his time but, as much as I admire him, I see others as El Tiante who will be too late very soon. Mr Saberhagen was a terror and wish him the best. I am glad I got to see him pitch. Gutsy competitor. What a guy!!! Blessings.

[@mertonhirsch4734]

Brown was reported as having bought steroids an HGH in the Mitchell report. Saberhagen has two Cys, WS MVP, no-hitter and started the all star game. The problem is you can't mix ERA+ and WAR. WAR is already based on an ERA+ but one that accounts for defenses and the exact lineups he faces. Now, using that Saberhagen is 132, which is great, but you can't go back and use ERA+ again when a better form of ERA+ is going into the calculation. ERA+ and innings may be better. Halladay is really a borderline guy but he died shortly before his first ballot. I like him for the hall, but he had 40.4 wins above average to 36.6 for Saberhagen. 40 is virtually a lock. I think there are maybe 4 position players who aren't in with 40 WAA and two pitchers (Brown, just over 40 and Schilling who is amazingly over 60). I was a KC fan growing up, but Saberhagen's career was disjointed. He had a lot of half seasons, and averaged only 135 IP in his last 9, and also missed a full season in their. If you crammed all of his good seasons together at the end of his career he might have gotten in. In fact, Koufax "looks" similar to Saberhagen if you do that. Still, 59 WAR is not getting someone in, and 36.6 WAA isn't a slam dunk. Dizzy Dean and Sandy Koufax were transcendent at their peak.

[@OH_MY_DOGGG]

His time with the Red Sox meant a lot to me.

[@jimmyfitz8907]

Another solid video…saberhagen was a beast…I hope your channel grows exponentially in 2024…Merry Christmas pal!

[@walkoffstudios]

Thank you and also Merry Christmas Jimmy!

[@RoofDoctorsJoanne]

167 wins? Nah.... he had 2 great Cy Young Seasons & like 3 or 4 other pretty good ones. Not a HOF .....hall of very good good.

[@JC-bj5cv]

Exactly. A very good pitcher not a HOF er

[@jude999]

Well, Larkin, Minosa, Simmons, and Baines were very good and they got in.

[@Strotophonic]

I respect that opinion (not necesarily agree)............I myself am torn. Sabes was real real real good, no joke...........But I understand..........at some point counting stats will bite you unless you are Sandy Koufax.

[@Strotophonic]

@@JC-bj5cv I'd say Sabes was a tad more than very good. In the 80s there was little doubt he was an ace....Remeber back in that decade crazy K/9s were only a Nolan Ryan thing (Roger Clemens only had one season with K/9s over 9 in that decade, so did Mike Scott) pitchers back then were not encouraged at all to produced strike outs as it would decrease their chances of game completion. That's the reason K/9s shouldn't be stacked against him. Again, I agree he is not an easy pick.........but trust me he was more than "Very Good".

[@RoofDoctorsJoanne]

@@Strotophonic I concur...Koufax...a little before my time put together a crazy 5 or 6 year period. His talent was just off the charts....and then had to walk away at his peak. The problem with Saberhaggen....he kinda had a long career with highs & lows. Koufax is like Gayle Sayers to me....the talent was to just to great to deny...and everyone agrees the injuries cut them short statistically longevity.

[@willshad]

He falls a bit short, same as David Cone. Not quite enough dominating seasons for a short career guy, he would alternate good seasons with so-so seasons. Also was injury prone..amazingly he didn't have a single 200 IP season after age 25.

[@richdouglas2311]

Neither Schilling nor Clemens was "barred" from induction. They simply were not selected.

[@davidlafleche1142]

Clemens took steroids. Schilling did nothing wrong.

[@RafaelSoltren]

Don’t forget CARLOS DELGADO has been left out… over 400 home runs and the only Latino to hit 4 home runs in one game… his stats are comparable with many already in the HOF…👍🏿👍🏿👍🏿👍🏿

[@jude999]

Being an ethnic group has nothing to do with it.

[@michaeladams5636]

Like I said ten straight years of at least 30 home runs and he is not in??? Not to mention his MVP snub in 2003 and you could make a case for him in 2000 as well. He was only a two time all star but his numbers were good enough he could have been an all star like 12 times.

[@RafaelSoltren]

@@jude999 I was only giving him credit that of about a 1000 Latino players he was the only one to hit 4 home runs in a game…

[@ramonhernandez1623]

This was about pitchers. Not hitters

[@billcook4768]

Being comparable with the weakest players in the HOF does not make you a HOFer

[@patrickmoreau7592]

I saw him pitch 2 things against him 1 he doesn’t have enough wins 2 he was in a great season, bad season. Yeah, his overall numbers are very good but not good enough.

[@ATCguy1973]

I think the strike in 1994 probably robbed him of at least 25 wins. He was elite in 1994 winning 14 games before the strike and walking only 13 batters prior to the strike. What wasn't mentioned was his performance in even numbered years as opposed to odd numbered years with his time in Kansas city. I think those even numbered years hurt his chances of being one of the all time greats.

[@walkoffstudios]

The original video script mentioned in much detail his low winning percentage seasons as a Royal, but it was cut for time. In his four even numbered years in Kansas City, Saberhagen went 36-48 with a 3.70 ERA in over 700 innings. Not a great ERA, but still better than the average (lowest ERA+ was 106). If he went say 49-35 in those years, his career record would be 180-104; more much attractive for hall of fame consideration.

[@ATCguy1973]

@@walkoffstudios those Royals teams in the 80s had some talent. They were much better than the constant bottom dwellers in the American league. They could never get over the hump after 1985. I'm thinking that 200 wins should have made him a hall of famer according to the voters. Was traded to the worst team money could buy in 1992. Spraying bleach on those reporters definitely hurt his reputation for a while.

[@rjperfetto584]

He has weird up and down seasons, I do remember that. He was inconsistently non dominant.

[@generalsol]

I couldn't help but notice how you did not Mention his inconsistencies year after year. He was well known for having a great season and then having a subpar season then having a great season then having a subpar season. This was a pattern before he started getting injured as well. If he had been more consistent year after year before he started getting injured I would have agreed that he belongs in the HOF, however as someone who actually lived and watched his career especially after he joined the Mets he is not Hall of Fame

[@stevejohnson1577]

Tell me about… i always got the off year for baseball pools

[@edwardbliss8931]

He's sort of in that same category as Dave Stieb, in his prime he was dominant, but generally he was good but not great

[@jimwerther]

Good comment

[@fenderstratocastertelecast8479]

A kind regards from México. A royals fan here

[@rsuriyop]

This guy would be making like $35 - 40M a year if only he was born like 30 years later.

[@MeneTekelUpharsin]

Money was never a problem for him though.

[@michaeladams5636]

Juan Gonzalez is another interesting case.

[@jimwerther]

Steroids

[@jordanpatience9249]

I know wins count less now days but if we go only by wins he has the same as Koufax so either both should in or neither should be in

[@johnisouth6636]

Brett is not in there?

[@Geotubest]

Saberhagen was a beast of a pitcher. He should be in the HOF:

[@golfmaniac007]

If Bert blyleven and Harold Baines got in HOF, Bret should definitely be in

[@jimwerther]

Don't start with Harold Baines and Lee Smith, otherwise we're going to have to induct another 500 players tomorrow.

[@jcpenny3606]

@@jimwerther I feel Lee Smith belongs because he had the record for most career saves for awhile. Relievers get overlooked a lot because they only pitched 1 maybe 2 innings for every appearance, and that don't seem like a lot of work. Most of the time, that is true, but the times when the game is on the line, no other position player face more pressure.

[@jasonfrost9294]

He also threw a no hitter

[@michaeladams5636]

Should David Cone be in? He would get my vote and probably Jimmy Key.

[@jimwerther]

Cone definitely, probably Key too.

[@cardboardempire]

Psst...Dave Steib 56.4 WAR, 176 wins. The best pitcher of the 1980s.

[@erictallant4965]

This guy is an Ace on MLB The Show. So, he’s in my HoF

[@rsuriyop]

Besides Sabrehagen and Brown, I think Rick Reuschel also has a very interesting Hall case to make.

[@cokesquirrel]

I watched him pitch many many times on WGN when he was with the cubs, He was only slightly better than a 500 pitcher, (214-191). I would be curious to hear your reasons for him being a hall of famer. When I think of dominant pitchers of each year his name never comes to mind. And I think for most years he was playing I could probably off the top of my head name at least5-7 pictures who are better than him each year. Obviously you've given this some thoughts so I give you a curious why you think he'd be a hall of famer

[@rsuriyop]

@@cokesquirrel That's the thing. I don't think he really blew anyone away either. But he was consistently good for a long time, pitched a lot of innings (over 3,500) and apparently had gold glove quality defense - two things that really helped his WAR out. If you are a true believer in WAR, that it's the be all and end all of player statistical analysis, then this is the guy you'd be propping up at the next Hall ballot. As he ended his career with 68 WAR which is above the Hall average for pitchers (and just edging out Kevin Brown who accumulated 67.8 throughout his career).

[@cokesquirrel]

@rsurlyop Yes I'm a big believer in WAR. I waste a large amount of time on the baseball reference website. Thanks for the information I really wanna check this out and how he compare to other hall of fame pitchers. I'm a big sports car collector too so now I figure I'm gonna have to get 1 of his autographs. Off the top of my head I I want to say Jim Kaat Won the gold glove for For pitchers Almost every year for 2 decades so that would have made life hard for rick. Yeah you made me really curious I appreciate your response. i have to go check all the stuff out

[@cokesquirrel]

Okay , Pretty poor on my part, had the wrong league. kaat was AL, it was Phil Niekro Who dominated the NL gold

[@jimwerther]

Reuschel is _not_ a Hall of Famer

[@Dulcimerist]

Saberhagen was one of the most dominant pitchers in all of MLB, every other year. I'd like to see him elected. His inconsistency is keeping him out.

[@dennyluster3089]

Saberhagen was a very good pitcher, but doesn’t have the career stats to get into the HOF.

[@DeadCelt]

Bret is my favorite pitcher of all time. He belongs in Cooperstown

[@RDGardea]

Is there a greater KC pitcher in their history? He was scary good and always was considered too 3 in his stint. He needs to be in the HOF.

[@walkoffstudios]

Interestingly, Kevin Appier has a higher WAR and ERA+ as a Royal than Saberhagen.

[@jimwerther]

​@walkoffstudios What does that tell you about how statistics lie? No one on planet eaeth believes Appier > Saberhagen.

[@taqiyyaconcarne6908]

Heck of a punch out at 00:22

[@Pocketrocket-pj1us]

7:45 96 & 97 took away alot of games. Thank Bud that 95 helped to give all players a perfect amount of games, to acheive some great records. I don't remember 94 though. How did that year work out? Oh, I just found this on another site. It say's the Montreal Expos and N.Y Yankees had the best records That year and according to a magazine called Genesis, made by a company , called Sega, says that the Expos beat the Tanks that year and won the world series!!! WOW!!! That great for them. I wonder why they are not around anymore. Things that make 6ou go Hhmmmm.

[@MeneTekelUpharsin]

Most years the Expos was basically the minor league team of the Majors. Developing players like Randy Johnson, Andres Galerraga, Larry Walker, Pedro Martinez, Moises Alous, Vlad Guerrero only to trade them away as they were breaking out. They moved to Washington and became the Nationals but they still kept the same minor system.

[@rjperfetto584]

This is a waste of a HOF debate, he had a pretty good to good career stat wise, he's getting a sabermetric- analytic push, he isn't even close to HOF stats and credentials, as for Halliday, he had a much better star career but isn't " a real HOFer either

[@forgerelli1]

Who exactly is a "real" HOFer?

[@RDGardea]

Huh. Did he play for any contenders? I don’t recall? If not the pressure of being the man has got to count for something.

[@jimwerther]

Seriously? 1985 WS

[@williampotts7205]

I come to think about Tim Lincecum. Bad way to end a career, but when he did pitch. Cy Young's and World Series rings. Hmmm

[@matthewgriffith7302]

Did voters discount his WS performance and MVP and gave the credit to Don Denkinger instead for the Royals victory?

[@jimwerther]

Lol

[@jordanpatience9249]

Of all pitchers not in the hall Tommy John deserves it the most he won more games after the surgery that bares his name then Koufax won his whole career

[@misterknightowlandco]

You know, I can understand why he’s not in yet. If you look at the “traditional stats” you’d say he was a really good pitcher but borderline HOF. When you add in the modern stats and add them into the mix, it’s a question of why the f is he not in. He’s an interesting case indeed.

[@logalogalog]

Roy Hallday got to the hall because of his untimely death. It would have likely been a long uphill slog for him to get in the "regular" way.

[@ticnatz]

I'm torn on Saberhagen. Injuries got in his way.....

[@garthreynolds1437]

He was amazing .Hof.for sure

[@jimwerther]

You left out two things: Saberhagen dominated in odd years but was mediocre in even years his entire time in KC, and his control was insane - he never walked hitters. However, when you say that he only pitched in hitters' parks...what??! Shea Stadium was a pitchers' park, period. Even Royals' Stadium is hardly a hitters' haven. As to Kevin Brown, how can you omit the steroids issue? If Clemens isn't in, how can Kevin Brown be? David Cone _should_ be in. So should Hershiser. Dave Stieb is close. Back to Saberhagen - he is very similar to Ron Guidry. Short career, three great seasons sprinkled about among them. Not cutting it.

[@jimmyfitz8907]

Also any BlueJay player content would be appreciated

[@walkoffstudios]

Sometime in January or February I hope to have a video out regarding a former Blue Jays player.

[@jimwerther]

​@@walkoffstudios Stieb?

[@axelagosto5196]

Great pitcher but not a HOF,injuries take a toll

[@stevejohnson1577]

Jack Morris deserves to go in before anyone else…. Tell me a better money pitcher from the 80s and 90s

[@walkoffstudios]

Morris is already in

[@sc687]

Well if you never saw him pitch you’d know he was injury prone

[@rogerliu3939]

He is a big game pitcher unfortunately in Royal........

[@jackhastings9800]

Bret Saberhagen is in the Orange Cosst College hall of Fame. Sorry, that was Dan Quisenberry.

[@PJLeo-sp4gn]

Was hot & cold year to year and never put up 2 great seasons in a row. NO WAY is he a HOFer.

[@Tank4Life]

167-117 ain't gonna get you in the HOF.

[@justins8639]

Baseball needs to stop focusing on counting stats for HOF criteria and put more weight on peak. Saberhagen should be in!

[@hyperchord]

What do you mean by "peak"?

[@justins8639]

@@hyperchord The window of years in which the player was at his best. In the case of many borderline HOFers their peak years align with a short period when they were the very best in baseball. I guess Saberhagen is difficult to judge in this way since he was inconsistent year to year. However, he had some killer years.

[@axelagosto5196]

Sorry but you can have 5 years incredible but the rest mediocre,impossible make HOF

[@drbonesshow1]

Guidry should have won the Cy Young in 1985. Perhaps Saberhagen shouldn't have pitched to Steve Nebraska.

[@kevinwright9820]

He filled a water pistol with bleach and used it on the reporters waiting to interview him. Disgruntled mets fan i am

[@benjaminlyng8269]

WTF is war and adjusted ERA? Have these words ever occurred on a HOF plaque? why are we considering for HOF consideration?

[@walkoffstudios]

ERA+ is similar to ERA in which it shows how well a pitcher was compared to the average, but adjusts for various factors like league and ballpark. It's good for comparing pitchers of various eras; someone with an ERA of 3.00 in 1999 will be miles better than a pitcher with a 3.00 ERA in 1910, despite the marks being identical. Ignoring any advanced stats, Saberhagen has 2 cy youngs, a WS MVP, 167 wins, and was the second best pitcher in MLB for a solid decade.

[@TTony-tu6dm]

Saberhagen was a douche to reporters so that’s why he hasn’t been considered. Shouldn’t matter but it does

[@darrylwillett8359]

So why is WAR so important these days? Before the 90's, WAR wasn't a thing! This stupid stat has kept a lot of great players from the Hall plus what about those great players that's in the Hall that this stat didn't effect their inductions? This sport is getting out of hand when it comes to the Hall just because of this "WAR"!

[@rjperfetto584]

Thanks to Bill James and the Oakland As with Moneyball and Sabermetrics- Analytics with Paul D and Bully Beans and Sandy Anderson.

[@forgerelli1]

WAR is important because it's a great all encompassing statistic. It shines a spotlight on both overrated and underrated players. If you don't like it or don't understand it that's fine, but that doesn't mean it's bad.

[@darrylwillett8359]

@@forgerelli1 But how important was it 50 years ago? It wasn't.

[@DaDitka]

​@@darrylwillett8359It wasn't. But I don't see how because it wasn't important 50 years ago that this means it isn't important now. I do think, however, that like any stat, we should not use one as the "all in all" for determining who was great and who wasn't. There is a good reason why Miguel Cabrera was the MVP in 2012 despite Mike Trout having a better WAR. I say we use ALL the numbers, not just WAR or batting average.

[@darrylwillett8359]

@@DaDitka Because it hurts players now who if they played 50 0r 60 years ago, they would be in the Hall.

[@raincntry2657]

I like these videos where people are discovering 80's players and using advanced stats to try show who the player was. Sabs was a good pitcher who was not durable enough (a more accurate way to say he lacked counting stats) , suffered from and odd year/even year phenomena in K.C. and then sprayed bleach on reporters when he was on the Mets. That's why he's not in the HOF. Like a lot of players, at his peak he was elite. However he was not at his peak enough.

[@walkoffstudios]

He threw more innings from ages 20-21 than after turning 31. Speaking of the first thing you mentioned, there are more planned videos like this, covering players from the 60s-80s.

[@DDDDD760]

He should ought to be elected!

[@ice-iu3vv]

saberhagen was inconsistent, and the total wins arent there. even the winning percentage isnt special. he had a few good years but compare him to ron guidry or even frank tanana. there are plenty of better pitchers who arent in the hall. i dont typically support the notion that luis tiant belongs in, but there is a better case for him than saberhagen. urban shocker, j.r. richard. heck, even on his own team and era, i'd support dennis leonard as being equal to saberhagen, and quisenberry as being a far stronger candidate. for that matter, amos otis and hal mcrae are better candidates (they arent pitchers, but they are teammates of saberhagen who had better careers).

[@walkoffstudios]

Why do you think JR Richard has a better case? Also interesting you mentioned Luis Tiant, why don't you support him for the hall?

[@ice-iu3vv]

richard seemed more dominant. granted his career is too short. the argument for tiant seems to be tied to his numbers being comparable to catfish hunter. well, hunter is more of a marginal hall of famer than a really good one. he played on great teams, won rings, and became overrated. if we put in everybody who has comparable numbers to a given hall of famer, we would have over 800 members. take tony perez, who got in mostly because of rbis, consistency, a great team, and strong lobbying from the latino community. perez isnt as good as mattingly or dick allen.he isnt necessarily better than mcgriff, cecil cooper, john olerud, will clark, keith hernandez etc. do we want all of these guys in, and then need to put in the similar players? isnt it clear where that would lead?in most cases we need greater standards , not lesser standards for the hall. people havent taken it seriously for decades now because the choices are so arbitrary. i support elston howard because he truly belongs. there are some other players who also deserve consideration. my choices are noted on your bill madlock and dwight evans videos. @@walkoffstudios

[@walkoffstudios]

@@ice-iu3vv For the Richard/Saberhagen comparison, it isn't even close. Richard was great for only five seasons, and Saberhagen had better stretches than he did. (Saberhagen from '85-'89 was better than Richard '76-'80) As for Tiant, there's a much better HOF pitcher that has very similar stats to him. I actually have a Tiant video coming out next month, so I won't spoil it unless you really want to know now lol. I wouldn't agree that the choices are arbitrary or lesser players would be in. Instead, over time we recognize that several players were much better than we realized, and perhaps deserve a second chance. Players like Allen, Mattingly, Olerud, Hernandez, all perhaps will be inducted one day, and that doesn't make the hall any less special or serious, it acknowledges the greatness of others that were overlooked. Would also love to hear your argument for Elston Howard for the Hall. Terrific player and historically important, but his career stats are nowhere near HOF worthy. In the Bill Madlock video, I mentioned he should not be in the hall, but yes in the Evans video I made it obvious he should be in.

[@ice-iu3vv]

yes its plain that saberhagen had an objectively better career than j.r. richard. but looking at the subjective questions like, who would you rather have to hit against, or who would you rather have on your side in a big game, im just a huge richard fan. for a moment, he was a right-handed randy johnson. from strikeouts, to height, to overall effectiveness (in 79 and 80 at least, before his own team contributed mightily to his unfortunate ending) to throwing a slider in the mid 90s and a 3-digit fastball, he reminds me a lot of randy. they have other things in common too, from playing for the astros, to having a connection to nolan ryan. (richard was a teammate of ryan's, and randy was told by nolan "if you fix your control, your mechanics, and develop another pitch, you'll be the best pitcher in baseball".) elston howard was kept from getting his career started first by segregation, then by military service, then by being a catcher on a team that had yogi berra. he was 29 when he finally got considerable playing time, and from the ages of 32-35, he was as great as any catcher has ever been at those ages. when you look at defense, batting average, power, winning, consistency, his seasons from 1961-64 are really outstanding. his career numbers are poor because he was kept from having playing time in his prime by circumstances outside his control. looking at the simple question of "best" player not in the hall, i think it was howard, though i would concede that objective numbers support different candidates, like dick allen. @@walkoffstudios

[@ice-iu3vv]

and bear in mind, this isnt a "what if" argument. its not like howard was injured, drunk, or suspended in the 50s and we're deciding what he "might have" done. he WAS one of the best players in the world in the 1950s, not "might have been". we know that from the information we have. he was one of the best players of the 60s when he was past his prime. he was one of the best players of the later negro leagues. he was impressive enough to make the yankees in the 50s when they won the world series every year and already had yogi berra. see the bill james abstract for more on how williams and dimaggio WERE the best players in the world during world ward 2, not "might have been, if only". @@walkoffstudios

[@russellpetty8776]

Sorry. Very good pitcher. 3 or 4 really great years. But not a Hall of Famer.

[@eazye519]

Schilling should be in. So what if you dont agree with his political views

[@-phenom-]

For all the reasons Schilling isn't in the HOF, Saberhagen is total opposite. He is a class act. He was almost like the AL version of Greg Maddux. Very well respected by fans, players, media etc... I was at his first start for the Colorado Rockies and the city was so excited to finally have an elite pitcher. He got roughed up a bit, but battled and got the Win. He obviously wasn't 100% and I remember after the game he felt bad that he didn't play better for the fans. Anyway, I agree he should be in the HOF, but I also agree he is not a slam dunk because of the premature end to his career because of injuries. But when you factor in the no-no, the era he played in and his playoff performances, he deserves to be in.

[@jude999]

Since when is HOF induction based on someone's politics and exercise of freedom of speech? Its not North Korea.

[@jimwerther]

He threw bleach at reporters in New York, then lied about it. Anyway, Schilling absolutely belongs.

[@Cheryworld]

no. good is not great

[@jonathanburke6059]

Cole Hamels was better. Let’s be honest

[@bengolfs1]

Too many stats. Stop using sabermetrics.

[@GettingItDone]

100% NOT a hall of fame. Just look at his stats. Sorry, NO.

[@ZZSmithReal]

Schilling is being blackballed because of his politics. It's asinine. And it's all irrelevant to what he did on the field.

[@RunDCM]

Schilling isn’t in the HOF because the writers are spiteful democrats.

[@James-hd4ms]

It’s supposed to be the hall of fame; not the hall of statistics.

[@dibari22]

His ex-wife probably hampered his career more than anything else.