The D&D Killers Daggerheart Vs. DC20

[@ChandlerBaze]

Enjoyed watching the video and here are some of my thoughts on the field of DC20 since that is where my experience is. - DC20 is still very customizable even though it has a lot of options in place by default. The game is simple enough in its core that it is not overly difficult to create new options yourself, there are already rules in place for making custom ancestries and there will be a custom weapon system once Beta 0.8 gets released. - The official name of Warlord/Commander is Commander and that will be the name in all rules updates going forward. - When it comes to classes the Dungeon Coach looked at what the fantasy for each class is and built the class around that fantasy. Every casting class has different ways they can modify their magic and each martial class has different ways they can work on the battlefield. - Background is most likely the way it is because it is just coming out of the alpha and going into the beta. He wants to get everything he sees as essential worked out before starting on the more narrative-based things (like backgrounds). That is also why the current ruleset doesn't have very many traversal/roleplay-based mechanics due to the game still being in development. - One important thing to note about the DC20 multiclass mechanic is that it does allow the player to choose a single feature from another class without detrimenting the progress of the primary class the character is playing. - Most skills in DC20 also have a combat action tied to them involving them more in combat. I also like the extra complexity in DC20 since it is for the benefit of more customizability (which I always like). - When it comes to the prime modifier being what is used for the roll, I like this because it adds narrative customizability regarding how a character fights. A Fighter that uses charisma may use their wit to distract their foes as they take advantage of their distraction by attacking, while a might Wizard may flavor their casting almost like the bending in Avatar where they use their body to manipulate and cast magic. - I prefer the mana/stamina point system over what D&D does. I don't worry too much about the point management for martials because they just have stamina which is a very small pool (1 at 1st level). - For weapons in DC20 they are fixing to be reworked in the next beta update. They will no longer be distinguished between light and heavy, they will be more customizable with a properties system that allows for custom weapons, they will no longer have stat requirements, and they will only be distinguished between melee and ranged weapons. After watching the video, I would say that Daggerheart is better if you want a good system that does a good job of setting up and playing out narrative elements, while DC20 is more geared to creating a balanced and symmetrical system that gives a lot of choice and customization in combat. Another thing about DC20 I like is that there are also many ways the players can work with each other for good teamwork during battle (such as combo spellcasting, ways to give out the help action, and class abilities that allow for cooperation). I have been really enjoying the DC20 games I have played, but both systems seem like really good options depending on what you want to do.

[@DadtheDungeonMaster]

@Reld_Ezab I'm glad you liked the video! I worked hard on it. All that stuff sounds awesome. I can't wait to see what he does with it. I like what he's done so far. I should have put a disclaimer for people who don't know that both systems are still in development. Honestly, I'm probably going to give both a try for at least a one-shot at some point. Thank you so much for the feedback!!!

[@chriss5599]

That seemed real well thought out and kept objective and avoided being click bait like a lot of other content creators I see recently in the tabletop community. Thanks for the analysis and glad to join your community

[@DadtheDungeonMaster]

@chriss5599 Thank you so much!! I'm really glad you enjoyed it! I try to be as clear and straightforward as I can.

[@franciscofernandez8183]

Really good video. Seems well researched and thought out. I am interested in both systems and this video really gave me a good first look at both of them. Good job.

[@DadtheDungeonMaster]

@@franciscofernandez8183 Thanks so much! I'm glad you liked it!

[@GutisFive]

I'm at the beginning of the video but wanted to say i love how you described the spirit of each system. They both have a place and want to play Daggerheart when i can, but to dm i choose DC20 because i suuuck at improvising lol. So having a lot of it codified in the system mechanics helps me a lot

[@DadtheDungeonMaster]

@GutisFive Thank you so much!!! When I was newer at dming I was exactly the same way. That's why I played 3.5 for a long time when I started. Improv is NOT easy. I live in fear of my players asking me what some random guy's name is.

[@Edward_FP]

I really appreciate the veey detailed breakdown of these systems. It's great to see how these games both are solving issues in their own way. It is important to note that both are in development and Daggerheart seems further along. Keep up the great work. Looking forward to your final reviews.

[@DadtheDungeonMaster]

@Edward_FP Thank you so much! I'm glad you liked it! I should have mentioned as a disclaimer in the video that they were both still in development. And that true about Daggerheart being further along. They've been talking about it for years now, it seems like.

[@grr-OUCH]

Out of the two, DC20 fits my personal style for GM and player. I like that it is defined by math, making it balanced. The only thing that I do not like about DC20 is initiative. I am going to steal how Savage Worlds handles initiative, where each player character and important NPC draws their own poker card. NPC "mooks" get their own card for each type. Ace goes first, and the cards of the same value go in suit order (Spades, Hearts, Diamonds, then Clubs). You draw each round, and we turn it in as people end their turns. Jokers pick when they go. For DC20, I will probably have it give the character an extra action for that turn, being added at the start of the turn before anyone actually takes their turn.

[@DadtheDungeonMaster]

I like that about DC20, too. That's a really neat initiative system!

[@amsai99]

I was thinking about adding the same initiative system! The idea of it adding an extra action point for the round is super neat tbh

[@BookMagic2K]

Totally agree abt the play style, but don't rush to discard DC20 initiative. It seems clunky (and it kinda is), but having ini based on what chars did before the fight is actually neat and contributes greatly to roleplay. Also, i LOVE DC20's initiative help and turn autobalance features.

[@SamuelDancingGallew]

One thing about points in D&D is that each limited-use ability effectively has its own points. Two good examples are Barbarian's Rage, and Druid's Wildshape.

[@DadtheDungeonMaster]

@@SamuelDancingGallew True

[@jacksonhorrocks4281]

Yeah. That poor Barbarian who doesnt want to track stuff still does have to track rage uses, damage bonus, and continued rage conditions

[@tntori5079]

Great video! I don't know alot about daggerhardt, but I didn't realize it was less crunchy. I opted for dc20 and seeing as I started 3.5 that makes sense. When 5e forst came out I was overjoyed to have a less crunchy system. Excited to have more narritve play with less numbers. Now years laster I find myself reaching for the crunch and clear rules as oppsed to lite systems reliant on DM creativity.

[@DadtheDungeonMaster]

@@tntori5079 Thank you!!! I totally understand. I went through a lot of the same process

[@zanzatbc]

Great video, your exposition of the facts was extremely well put together! As someone who has been playing ttrpgs for nearly 25 years, and mastered for a huge part of those years, I believe the main issue with the current “system war” is that it feels like everyone is looking for the “ultimate” or “definitive” system… but each system is different because they bring very different flavours, and no system can appease everyone. From what I’ve seen and read so far, DC20 looks like an extremely combat focused system, with a lot of options and a very high power level. The system is meant for epic combat and describing epic actions, but the system also looks very clunky to track, and the excessive use of math for “balance” makes everything feels very similar, even though there are so many options. Daggerheart looks a lot more focused on roleplay and it does have more of that “theatre kid” feel to it that critical role loves. But it’s still has a very heroic/epic vibe to it that doesn’t really cut it for me. Although it certainly looks interesting if you enjoy it for what it is. Everyone has a system they prefer; to me, both systems feels extremely overpowered and have a very “heroic journey” feeling to them. I started playing d&d back in the late 90s when ad&d was still around. To this day, I love advanced. Especially the first edition. The gritty feeling of not being a hero, but an adventurer, with constant risk of death, and the clunky Multiclassing, never gets old for me. These days I mostly play my own custom system I have planned out and built with my group of players. Most of us have been playing together for all our lives, so we tailored our system to what we want out of it, but if I have to run a game or a campaign for a group of neophytes, I always go back to 5e because it’s very intuitive and casual friendly.

[@DadtheDungeonMaster]

@zanzatbc That sounds freaking amazing! I think that's the highest level of dming. When you truly understand game design and realize that the ultimate purpose of DnD telling you that you as the DM can change and adjust the rules is so it eventually evolve into this, restructuring entire sections of their system to work better for your group. I'd love to hear about some of the unique rules that you guys use.

[@zanzatbc]

@@DadtheDungeonMaster thank you for the kind reply. I thought my comment was a bit too long, I am really happy you enjoyed it. Since you are curious, I will explain a bit of our gaming system, but it’s probably going to be a long reply. so if this is too cumbersome, don’t worry about reading it. I wouldn’t want to be a bother! *WARNING! Nerdy Boring Monologue incoming.* We mostly use a custom game system of our own that is loosely based on a mix of ad&d, (mostly BECMI), 3rd and 5th edition, but also draws inspiration from other games we have played over the years, such as pathfinder, DCC, 4th edition dnd, warhammer (ttrpg and the fantasy battles), CoC and many others. There are also a lot of rules that are derived from interesting ideas we found on KZbin videos, Reddit and various forums over the years. The system aims to feel pretty old school, while still getting rid of a few things we thought were clunky or obsolete from the old systems, like the THAC0 and the 6 different saving throws for pietrification, poison, breath weapons, etc… Overall, it is a very traditional system and it’s strictly connected to my own campaign setting, which is more of a sword & sorcery, low, hard magic style, rather than the high fantasy, high magic style of modern settings. It is a d20 system, with 6 ability scores, races and classes. so it’s not too different from a regular d&d system. We did not want to reinvent the wheel, just to tailor our favourite game to better suit what we wanted to do with it. The ability scores to modifiers conversion table we use is very similar to DCC/AD&D ones where 13 is +1, 17 is +3, and all scores between 10 and 12 are 0. we generally like to play with lower scores compared to the average 5e game. Something around 15/14/13/10/9/8. we usually roll 3d4+4 for ability scores. we use something very similar to AD&D weapon specialisation/mastery mechanics for weapon attacks, with the old 1/turn, 3/2 turns, 2/2 turns etc gimmick. saving throws are more akin to defensive stats since the attacker is the one who rolls and not the other way around. To balance this we added a 10 to the saving throw and made it a passive stat. There are no subclasses/archetypes, but we do have a system for prestige classes. The prestige classes are however mostly custom made in accord to the each player’s preferences. So I would count that more as a house rule than a system rule. We have a mana system that is loosely based on the rule variant presented in the DMG for 5e. There are no free spells. Cantrips cost mana to cast like it was in 3e. The spell list has been curated to an extreme degree. We have many passionate Spellcasting players, so spells are one of the most discussed topics in our group chat. Most spells are classics from different versions of the game: detect magic, light, arcane missile, cure wounds, summon monster, fireball, tenser’s disk, invisibility, charme… We also have a rank system for crafting skills (5e tools) that is inspired by the old 3.5 skill rank system. We have a Fame System, and a sanity score system in place. we kept most of the hirelings and followers rules from advanced d&d and expanded on them. We also have a house rule that allows players whose character dies to continue playing with their highest level henchman as their new characters if they wish. The most unique rule we have in our system is probably the one about long and short rests and hp recovery, time is a fantastic resource to give to the players to make the game feel more realistic, and we worked on this quite a bit. Not just for short and long rests, but also for the mana recovery system, the travelling system and many others. In our games, a short rest can last from a couple hours to 48 hours, and a long rest can take up to a whole week, depending on the environment where the characters rest. We have a table that indicates different types of rest quality: a nice tavern in a fancy part of the city, where they pay full price for a great feast, is going to help them recover a lot faster than sleeping on the ground around a bonfire in the middle of a dungeon. Additionally, Characters do not simply recover hp when they take a long rest. We have a limit to the hp recovered during the long rest based on both the quality of the environment of said long rest, and on how severe the characters’ wounds are. The Max HP recovered vary from 10% of max hp up to 90%. There’s a lot more to the system that is tailor made to me and the group of friends I play with, but this reply is already extremely long and I think I’ve given you a decent picture of how the system works and its vibe. I know my group situation is quite unique and that I’m very lucky. I mostly play with people i have known for decades, and we all know each other well, so it’s easy for us to discuss and agree on rules, and trust each other. we have a great chemistry at the table that gives everyone enough space to have fun and express their opinions in order to take the game to a place where everyone is happy with. Also, both one of the players and I have studied game design a little bit, and, while neither of us has ever been successful in publishing anything, the little bits of knowledge we have certainly helped a lot in finding a balance to our system. Nevertheless, I understand that not many people are as lucky as I am, or as experienced (aka OLD) as I am. many people hope to find a definitive system they can get to know and use with many different groups over the years, and that’s where most of the recent ttrpg community turmoil has come from. *END OF NERDY MONOLOGUE ABOUT MY SILLY GAME.* If you managed to read through this horrifying wall of text you have my deepest gratitude. It’s always fun to talk to other passionate players and share our love for the game. Do you have any unique homebrew rules or table rules? I’m curious!

[@DadtheDungeonMaster]

@zanzatbc Thank you for taking the time to respond so thoughtfully again! You are super lucky to have such a solid, long-term group. I've had the same core group for about five years, and that's been great. Our group has several house rules, and we try out new ones from time to time. We have unique rules for crits, where if you succeed or fail, you have to reroll. And if you repeat the roll, it has greater consequences. We have a relationship/opinion system where every other party member and NPC has a range from -2 to +2 towards each other, which affects rolls. A -2 would be your most hated rival, and a +2 would be your closest personal friend. There's a few others that have stuck among all the ones we have tried; flanking, skill challenges, etc. I'll probably make a video about the house rules we use and discuss all of them.

[@zanzatbc]

@@DadtheDungeonMaster five years is a great achievement for a group! I hope you can get many more years of fun. The relationship rules sound fantastic. I may have to give them a try! Thanks again for the chat, your love for the game is genuine and contagious.

[@WhatisTableTop]

Great video! I enjoyed your review and think you have hit on some great points!

[@DadtheDungeonMaster]

@@WhatisTableTopThanks! I'm glad you liked it

[@evanbosco2380]

very cool video! Much love from the Dev Team! 💚

[@DadtheDungeonMaster]

@evanbosco2380 Thank you for the positive feedback. It really means a lot to me! Are you on the development team for one of these games?!

[@rohanv18]

DC20 new Weapon and armor system just came out and its really cool as its now totally customizable i fond combat in DC20 much more fluid and fun with the initiative turns and action points so u can do so much in ur turn plus out of ur turn as ur action points are refunded .

[@DadtheDungeonMaster]

@rohanv18 I'll have to go check it out. I think action points will feel more comfortable for a lot of people, especially those of us who grew up playing video games.

[@Bolvar4dragon]

(I'm writing these responses as I go through the video, so they might come across as all over the place lol) While I really liked bounded accuracy in DnD's proficiency bonus, I actually didn't like it as much for skills. It did this thing where I couldn't actually personalize what skills my characters were more or less invested in relative to each other. I like that DC20 attempts to give you that expression back, though I'm not sure how much it'll fulfill that for me since the caps increase only every 5 levels. But I think that expression will open up a bit at level 5, and presumably there will be skill and expertise talents. I haven't read into Daggerheart at all yet, but from how you describe their class-domain system, the domain combinations making different classes makes me think they don't really need classes at all and could just let you pick two domains to define your character. I assume there's more to classes than just the domains they give you though. That 2d12 system sounds amazing. Very clever use of the dice. I look at Mana in DC20 as more of a replacement for the clunkiness of the spell slot system. 5e did a lot to make it more flexible than it had been in the past, but it's definitely still more bookkeeping and more complex than one single pool you spend from. I was never really sure about implementing a point-based resource system, but the numbers are so low that it really seems to keep things nice and tight. Stamina and maneuvers definitely do make martials more complex, but I think it'll also make them more exciting to play. You really get to play on the battlefield instead of just ">move, >attack, okay that's my turn", especially considering the action point system. Ooh, Daggerheart's death system totally made me grin when you described it. It sounds really cool. I will say Daggerheart honestly sounds a lot like a board game in a lot of its system designs. It's kinda cool how they use that to facilitate more collaborative narrative roleplay. (Quick note that DC20's weapon system has already been redesigned to be more open and customizable. I wasn't sure if I'd like the change but it... kinda really works. It's kinda like a super lite version of the ancestry system where you pick two basic traits for a weapon from a short list, and there's a few negative ones you can take to buy more positive ones. I think there's plans to do similar reworks of armor and shields.) Overall I'm loving the presentation of DC20. I had so few criticisms after reading it (which I'm not sure is something I've ever really said before lol). It adds a lot of things from PF2 that I thought were brilliant innovations but manages to do it in a much, much neater and tighter package. It's like it was designed for me. At worst, I just felt neutral about some things. Mostly I found myself repeatedly saying, "Oh, I like that." We'll see how it holds up through development and with time, but I'm swallowed up in the hype right now haha. I'm pretty curious about Daggerheart now. One of my favorite things with any RPG is trying to translate a lot of my characters from various sources into a new system, so I'm totally curious how my characters might port over to it. I'm sort of envisioning them in a much more grand, heroic form than I think I ever have before, just going by your descriptions of some of the rules. I'll really have to check it out when I have time. I do love that whole crew over at Critical Role.

[@DadtheDungeonMaster]

@@Bolvar4dragon Thank you for taking the time to write all that. I appreciate all your comments so much! And I like hearing your opinions on them. I'm eager to see where both of these systems ends up

[@rustybrooks8916]

I appreciate your breakdown. From what you've said and what I've read of these systems myself, I would say I'm not a big fan of either. I'm not a massive fan of 5e either though. I suppose I can understand how simplifying systems can make them more accessible for people, but I've never been a big fan of this push towards simplification. To me there are simple systems that are already perfect for strong narrative roleplay, such as FATE or even just going formless and just using some random mechanism if you really want to spice things up sometimes. The desire to have game mechanics, IE gamifying roleplaying, lends itself better with something crunchier.

[@DadtheDungeonMaster]

@rustybrooks8916 Thanks for the feedback! These are some interesting thoughts. I've always leaned towards more rules than 5e because I started with 3.5, but I see the appeal of really breaking it down to bare bones, too.

[@PHJcz]

Awesome. 🙂👍🏻 I am one of those min-maxers who love to mix and match the best options. So I landed happily into DC20. Thank you for this well thought comparison. I learned a lot from your video and now I can see some beauty in Daggerheart too. 🙂 I am looking forward to DC20 0.8 update for the new Class the Spellblade and even more customizability of weapons. And I can't wait to subclasses. 😊 I am so amazed how The Dungeon Coach is willing to listen to his community in development process. Especialy during the creation of subclasses in Patreon Liveatreams. I haven't seen anything like that anywhere else. 😊👍🏻

[@DadtheDungeonMaster]

Thank you so much! I never really watched The Dungeon Coach until I heard about DC20, but I really appreciate his approach to things. He seems like a genuine guy, and he seems super smart. I'm eager to see what DC20 eventually turns into.

[@PHJcz]

My dream was to make Dwarf Abjuration Eldritch Knight Protector Tank (INT caster-warrior) character. I find in 5e I need for him high STR for melee ⚔️, high DEX for range crossbow 🏹, high CON for health 🩸, high WIS for perception 🧐, and also high INT for casting spells 🪄. 😬 Then I saw video about possibility to create the HULK (INT Barbarian) in DC20 and that was my reason to move. 🙂 I like the DC20 allows to create functional (otherwise) meme builds. 😊

[@DadtheDungeonMaster]

​@PHJcz Yeah, that sounds more appealing than a might wizard, but someone else commented about how it could be like he's using his body for casting, like bending in avatar. So, I'm coming around a little bit.

[@Solid_Sayori]

D&D when a PC is at 0 HP: "Oh no, don't die. Pls someone cast healing word before 3 rounds pass so that the player doesn't have to sit out the rest of the session!" Daggerheart when a PC is at 0 HP: "You should kys, NOW!"

[@DadtheDungeonMaster]

@@Solid_Sayori love!

[@dougstermoralles3033]

I see those 2 sistems too and i just boght DC20, for me its like a fusion of DND and 3D&T. Its like a Dream come true. Dagger heart is very good too, but for me choose between Dagger and DND, i would pick DND.

[@DadtheDungeonMaster]

@@dougstermoralles3033 I'm excited to see how they actually run at the table!

[@Val-ym8pm]

Tales of the valiant

[@sortehuse]

There are a lot of good ideas in DC20. I really like that only four ability scores and no damage roll, but it goes too much into detailed rules for me. Personally prefer that the DM has to make a ruling once in a while over having a game with very detailed rules, where you have to stop playing to them look up. Daggerheart also looks very good I like the cards and the fear/hope dice. There are a few fiddly mechanics. The ability scores a different, but they still have six. DC20 doesn't excite as much as Daggerheart. I think it's because if seem much much more like a fresh take on roleplaying, where DC20 looks more like D&D with a few improvements and some unnecessary extra rules.

[@DadtheDungeonMaster]

@sortehuse That's pretty much how I feel. I do really like the by 5s thing. And math has always made sense to me because it's logical and constant. You can always trust math to be the same. So that part of dc20 appeals to me. But daggerheart won me over with the cards and just being more different than dnd. Like you said, dc20 is like better dnd, daggerheart is like a whole new game in the same genre.

[@sortehuse]

@@DadtheDungeonMaster I am very impressed by the work the Dungeon Coach has done and I really do hope the best for both systems.

[@DadtheDungeonMaster]

@sortehuse Same. You can tell he really cares about what he's doing and wants it to be the best that it can be.

[@sortehuse]

​@@DadtheDungeonMaster 👍I hope you do a similar video for the new 2024 D&D rules when they comes later this year.

[@DadtheDungeonMaster]

@@sortehuse That's a great idea! I'll be sure to do that.

[@viienn]

Saying you can be more creative in dnd, rather than dc20 is crazyyy 😂

[@justicebrewing9449]

The only thing that can be the DND killer is DND itself. And Hasbro/WOTC are doing a fine job at that. I appreciate your breakdown and opinions, I think they’re pretty spot on. That said, as much as I would like to play DND, I won’t. Hasbro is just such a shit storm of a company that I’m not going to support them at all. They are just holding company that only exists because of stockholders. So they will do anything to make them happy.

[@DadtheDungeonMaster]

Sad but true

[@richardrdotson]

Hearing that accent I gotta ask, ‘where’s your daddy from?’

[@DadtheDungeonMaster]

@@richardrdotson 😆 My mom grew up in St. Louis. My dad grew up in the foothills of East Tennessee.

[@richardrdotson]

@@DadtheDungeonMaster, holy hell. I am living in Chattanooga and thought something about in there sounded very familiar.

[@DadtheDungeonMaster]

@@richardrdotson What are the chances!!!

[@eoris12]

Can't say i see the math in dc20 working well in the prime attribute. It nullifies all dofferences, meaning everyone rolls the same always. This is far from sophisticated maths. One thing is simplicity, another is obliviousness. Dc20 is oblivious to the fact that, if everyone rolls with a +3, then no one does.

[@DadtheDungeonMaster]

@eoris12 I can see your point, but most of the skills don't use it. It mostly levels out attacks and spells so that everyone's main combat actions are equal. So there's not one guy with a +8 to hit, while someone else only gets a +5 just because one rolled better stats. It also discourages Min-Maxers, and allows for more diverse character choices without hurting your combat effectiveness.

[@eoris12]

Does it? I think it plays into the illusion of it, but fails. I just want to be constructive here, so my position is the following. If all characters have the same bonus, then dispense with it. It's illusory at best, a scam at worst. Also, does it provide character diversity when all choices lead to the same result? Is saying that I use strength to cast magic what makes a character different? Or is this just a failure to understand archetypes and what they mean? You see, I find the prime modifier to give impressions, illusions, but not realities during gameplay. I saw a group of well recognised youtubers play and it felt obvious to me that they would not last once their brains realised they were all the same character doing the same things all the time, because the system guided them that way. One session is certainly not enough, since the game is basically a dnd and pf2e clone. You get bogged by all the new and old stuff, cluttering your mind. But over time it would become glaringly obvious. The prime stat has to go, and archetype must remain archetypes, wouldn’t you agree? In that sense, dagger heart has better design. Just my 2 cents for your algorithm and the discussion overall.

[@DadtheDungeonMaster]

@eoris12 I'll be honest, I haven't completely decided how I feel about the prime modifier. I'll have to playtest it for myself some before I decide. But I do highly appreciate your passion and your thought process.

[@martinbowyer7906]

@@eoris12 So, it’s not true that everyone will have a +3, at least not anymore than in 5e. A player could choose to go more balanced and have a 2 as their highest. In 5e most players will have their attack stat at its highest (i.e. fighter with a STR or DEX, and Wizard with INT) so your original comment is just as prevalent there. This idea along with freeing players to be more creative with their PC stories is the drive of the Prime Modifier. Here is the descriptive test from the playtest “Your Prime Modifier represents your overall experience and prowess as an adventurer.” The other part of this is that the Prime Mod only adds to your main attacks/save DCs in combat, and Awareness. It just means you know how to gauge your surroundings and handle yourself in a fight. Everything else is still based on your stats + skill masteries (which you must choose, and they don’t automatically increase). A fighter could have INT as their highest, but if they want to grapple it’s still based on Might (STR). I can’t speak for everyone who will try DC20, but I’m currently running a campaign for the last 3 months. I request feedback at the end of every session so I can provide it to the dev team. The only complaint I got about the Prime Mod is from the Power Gamer in my group who wishes their Hit bonus was higher. They always seem to start our 5e games with no less than an 18 if not a 20 in the primary stat. The rest of the group had some critiques but overall loved the lower levels. We can’t wait for the release of the subclasses. Last thought is to keep in mind that DC20 has only been in development for about a year by just a handful of people. If it wasn’t for the “FUN” of Jan 2023, he would probably still be making 5e content. Also, I watched the youtubers you mentioned play DC20 and can’t say I have the same impression. I saw a lot of different actions happening, and a highly entertaining gameplay. Plus they all gave it high praise, enough for some to call it the update 5e should have had.

[@Blaskor314]

There are several good ideas in both systems but I will most likely never play either. They both seem to overly complicate combat and in DC20s case, not rolling damage is boring, imo.

[@DadtheDungeonMaster]

@@Blaskor314 I like what they're trying to do. The hard part will be talking my group into playing something other than dnd

[@Snags5050]

I'd rather not roll damage and have high attack rolls matter than the current way where Just hitting the AC matters and then you roll damage, which is often a disappointingly low number

[@Blaskor314]

@@Snags5050 I think you can still roll damage AND have a tiered success system. I am actually working on a way to add it to my current game in some form. That is the only thing I have really liked between the two games. To me rolling low damage makes sense. If you hit someone with a longsword (1d8 damage) and roll a 1 on the damage, maybe it was merely a grazing hit on their thigh or arm. Whereas, you roll an 8, you might have actually gone through a muscle.

[@Blaskor314]

@@DadtheDungeonMaster I'm not against trying to fix what is broken or completely re-inventing the wheel. Getting a group out of their comfort zone can be tough. The group I am playing with i joined last year playing 4e. Most of the players have been playing for awhile but not all. I then offered to run a group myself but in 2e. They were all receptive to trying it out and I think they like the less video game aspect of 2e compared to 4e for sure. Combat is quick and fluid. I don't like group initiative because it doesn't really make sense for a whole group on one side to do all their actions before anyone on the other side can do anything so i do individual inits each round. Afterall, someone you are targeting could move out of the area at the same moment. (Happened with a wall of fog)

[@DadtheDungeonMaster]

@Blaskor314 That all makes perfect sense to me. 4e is better than people give it credit for. It is more video game style. I've never played 2e, but I'd love to try it out

[@billyrigby4839]

D&D clones come and go. They have for years. Some are even fun. Most become forgettable. DC20 looks like it will be a fun one but nothing will overthrow D&D. Whether people like that or not, that’s fine. Daggerheart though… eh… not that great imho. I expected it to be better. Wildsea and VtM v5 are the two best systems to compete with D&D. They’re unique and not D&D clones.

[@DadtheDungeonMaster]

@@billyrigby4839 I'll have to check those out!

[@billyrigby4839]

@@DadtheDungeonMaster The Wildsea is AMAZING! For real, it's a great world, unique system and Chainsaw Ships! (The PDF s affordable as well :D ) Felix Isaac made a fantastic system and game.

[@DadtheDungeonMaster]

@billyrigby4839 That sounds awesome!

[@aurvay]

Both are crap. They’ll sell well, tho-but won’t see much time at the table.

[@alexabel8010]

Brother, the hype for DC20 ain't for nothing. Give it a shot. You might surprise yourself. Trust me, a dude with 50k followers doesn't blow up with a game for no reason

[@Edward_FP]

Would you care to elaborate on why you feel that way and what game are you enjoying currently?

[@scarbrow01]

I can't speak for Daggerheart, since I have not looked into the game but I am familiar with DC20 and the community. Unless they drop the ball with the higher level features of the game development, DC20 is going to do well. I have ran playtests with the system at our gaming club and the players have loved it.