THE DARK SIDE OF TANGO - Warning beginner women against creepy men in tango - Robin Thomas(NY)

[@c.g.5331]

'They are not there to learn, they are there to hold young bodies' this phrase has really resonated in my head because I have seen it (and felt it) way too many times in my beginner days. This predatory behaviour is unfortunately normalised in our community. Thanks for talking about it, we need more people, specifically more men talking about it. Between women we do warn each others about this dudes, but this men won't listen to us, they will call us entitled and exaggerated. But they will listen to another man. To any guys reading this please talk about it and if you see your friends being creeps, call them out. For the teachers: I do think that some of this should be talked about in the first lessons. You should explain that if you are not comfortable you can stop, and that you don't owe your leader a full tanda, if they are making you uncomfortable you can leave. Many followers do not even know they have a choice. I was inappropriately touched in class as a beginner (both by a teacher and other fellow students), but I didn't know any better so I didn't say anything. Now I know they crossed the line. Talking with a friend who is a yoga teacher and tango dancer we came to the conclusion that it is your job as teachers to talk about this. This women will go through unwanted sexual attention, abuse and even assault inside and outside of your class anyway. The statistics are one in three women worldwide will go through it. But, if you tell them it's not ok, and give them the tools to stop it, they might take the courage to put and end to it in the early phase or report it. Begginers look up to their teachers, and you have one hour a week when thet receptive to your words, use that space to give them information that will help them stay safe. A 30 second talk about consent never hurt nobody! For the organisers: in my city, a few creeps have been banned from milongas. It is your responsibility to make sure everyone is safe and if that means kicking out a guy you should do it. I can understand that you are loosing a customer, but that safety will encourage more people to come back and to make the community a better place for everyone. If you made it reading this far, thanks for listening and sorry for the rant 😅

[@DonAgucho]

I'm sorry you had to go through that crap as a beginner and I agree that awareness is important, if I ever become a tango teacher I will definitely take this stuff very seriously.

[@SarathePit]

Thank you for this video! We are actively working these topics in Tango Colorado. DIrect, overt harassment is easy to define. "What feels uncomfortable" for an individual can be clear, although those of us patterned to please are unclear about this ourselves. I love your concept of "what's normal and what's not normal." We have defined "micro-harassment" behaviors in our Safer Spaces doc, like unsolicited teaching, monopolizing tandas, advice during the dance/corrections, etc.

[@kerrymareekay]

Thank you for this discussion of a deeply important matter in the tango world. There hasn't been sufficient awareness that a dancer can talk with an organizer about an uncomfortable experience and actually receive support. I for one am glad to see that idea is changing. Kudos to Robin and other organizers for your sensitivity to this topic and to DonAgucho for offering this video.

[@AGTngo]

Yes Kerry and as you well know I was the recipient of this behavior but in reverse.

[@074523]

I actually took university classes with Robin around 15 years ago for several years - and since I stayed in the university club for quite a few years, I got to hear lots of "tales" from the newcomer-followers who would join every year. I heard that one of the more advanced leaders would sometimes get an erection while dancing with followers - and he would make sure that his follower was physically aware of this fact... But what struck me most is that when I gasped and asked the ladies why they would keep dancing with that guy, they'd say that he was great fun to dance and that's just what he does and that everyone knew it. I've similarly witnessed a kickass female friend of mine dancing an entire tanda with a guy who kept putting his right hand on her butt - she'd grab it and move it back up to the shoulder area, he'd slide back down to the butt, she'd move it back up to the shoulder, etc... (this was at a private milonga in someone's living room though). I was shocked to learn when chatting with female followers that one of the older leaders had told them that is is unbecoming for a woman to look around for dances but that they should instead sit on the sidelines looking at the floor until approached by a leader... So in my view, the problem deserves more exploration. The starting point is certainly the problem of creepy men (and the occasional creepy woman - as a man, I have never been so aggressively been hit on looked at as "young meat" than in certain milongas). The good news is that Tango is a GREAT way to teach young men how not to be awkward/creepy towards women, to overcome the unhealthy societal default of sexualizing female bodies and instead develop a new desexualized way of enjoying physical intimacy with people of all ages and bodies and genders. But there is a linked problem, which directly relates to the Tango magic and which makes me question Robin's solution of focussing on consent a bit. The fact that a great milonga ideally creates an alternate magical universe for people to enjoy also means, that inexperienced beginners (male and female alike) are often astoundingly willing to CONSENT to behaviors/values that would be completely unthinkable in any other social context (which of course makes sense, cause you are also told to "cuddle up with a room of sweaty strangers" and to make chest-to-chest contact with them. So it's sometimes really hard for beginners to tell the difference between inacceptable-in-life-but-normal-in-Tango and inacceptable_in-life-AND-in-Tango. So the wonderful strength of Tango is harnessed to get "consent" from women (and sometimes also men) who don't know yet what's normal behavior in this magical Tango land that they just entered and who also don't know what their actual choices are (like mirada, walking away in the middle of a song, just giving a hard verbal no to people who get in your face, talking to the organizer, etc). So I'd say: consent is not enough, it has to be INFORMED consent (and Robin is clearly on a mission to spread the necessary information - thanks for that!) But another important point is that this inherent danger of magical Tango-Land applies independent of age. So focussing on YOUNG women only might miss quite a few unexpected victims (even they indeed tend to be the most vulnerable demographic). For instance, back during my student club times, I had to tell several accomplished professional women in their 40s and 50s that when a leader "teaches" them while dancing and tells them stuff like "btw, that was a gancho", instead of feeling bad and trying to absorb the "wisdom" of said leader, that should instead take it as a telltale sign that he's a terrible lead (unless they were at a practica working on ganchos). Likewise, in my example above about a leader telling young followers to look at the floor until approached by a man, there were several women in their 30s and 40s who consented and complied with said "rule" without questioning it instead of just laughing such machismo crap off. And when they wanted to dance with me, several of them shyly whispered to me asking for a dance or made excuses along the lines of "I know I'm not supposed to ask, but would you dance the next tanda with me". This indeed is to me the clearest illustration of the dangerous power of magical tango land - that some dude can tell a confident successful woman in her 40s that she's supposed to sit in a corner with her eyes on the floor until approached by a man - and she consents and complies...! The entire Tango community needs more awareness of this problem, watch out for its manifestations and tactfully intervene when necessary (again, thx Robin for giving some really good ways on how to do it).

[@ranmansanfran]

Great video, guys! And very neccesary in tango.

[@enkay110]

A woman has the absolute and well-known right to end the tanda at any point in by saying "Gracias" and walking away, no further explanation needed. The man on the other hand is "stuck" dancing with the woman he has invited for the entire tanda. I am surprised RT did not mention this. There are also embittered/"disappointed" followers who rail against their wall flower status and take it out spitefully on men, although they do have recourse (see #1) above.

[@pilargonzalez8442]

Who says a man/ leader does not have the same right if he does not want to continue the tanda? In my book every dancer has the right to end the tanda and walk away if it is not bearable!!!!

[@enkay110]

@@pilargonzalez8442 The man traditionally initiates the transaction; if his judgement is poor and he is disappointed, as a gentleman he hides his disappointment and continues with good grace. He may not invite the same person again, of course.

[@AGTngo]

It’s a little talked about fact, but no gender is owner of creepiness. I left this dance for almost a decade due to the things Robin describes that were done to me by women in the dance community. It took years of healing to finally be able to find myself again. So I can assure you it isn’t a one way street. I was continuously sexually harassed by from the time of my very first Milonga at the age of 7 all throughout my professional career until I stopped at the age of 32 due to a mentally ill female stalker (of which I sadly had many at that time) who attacked me. For my own safety I had to leave the dance.

[@DonAgucho]

I'm very sorry to read that. I cannot ''independently confirm'' the veracity of stories like this (or any harassment stories regardless of gender) but I want to add that female-to-male abuse of any sort is a topic a lot of people think is a laughing matter but it really, really isn't. It may not be as common in the sexual sense but there aren't really a lot of resources for help either.

[@grzegorzptaszek978]

This is all about the energy which people bring, style, health, hygiene, and skills so the chances are there for everyone. However, each dance has a sexual component in which biology works. Therefore, the age of women matters to some leaders and this should be also understood.

[@cardi3200]

11:08: "But I did watch them a lot" I find a little bit creepy to be watching a couple. Why do you think women need your help? Are you a knight with a white armour? Are you the tango Gestapo? Why do you think women are so stupid to NEED your help? Is this your pick up line? "Oh, you are so good that you are taking care of me! Thanks for saving me from the old man! yes, I will give you my phone number so you can check on me...." Why dont you just look for a partner to dance and have fun instead of watching couples how they are flirting? Mathew 7:5 "First, remove the beam out of your own eye, and then you can see clearly to remove the speck out of your brother’s eye"

[@Frunze42]

Because as an organizer it is his job to make sure everyone at his event is safe and comfortable. It is good business, and running a milonga is a business. No women are not stupid, but sometimes we find ourselves in uncomfortable situations and we don't know or are scared to create a conflict. A lot of us have been raised that way. Personally, I praise Robin for his efforts to create a safe space and it's good to know that there's someone who does look out for you.