The Darkness That Comes Before: reading R. Scott Bakker

"It's historical: violence against women in fantasy", video by ‪@Bookborn‬ • "It's historical": vio...
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[@chadia25]

Great review!! Totally get your reaction. I don't think I will ever forget the scene with Esmenet. I do love everything else. The conversations are top tier for me.

[@storytoob]

Thanks Chadia! I know exactly the scene you’re referring to and… yeah 😬 I think I agree actually, the dialogue and all the power-plays going on in it are fantastic

[@Johanna_reads]

Thank you for sharing your thoughts! I was scared to go into this book after hearing a BookTube friend have a very negative experience with the sexual violence towards women. When reading the book, I got that Bakker was critiquing concepts of masculinity and patriarchy, and those parts succeeded in being uncomfortable. Personal boundaries are important when reading these kinds of explorations, and even as a fan of the trilogy, I say honor your feelings over others if you need to DNF the series at any point. 🤍

[@storytoob]

Thanks Johanna! Yeah I think that regardless of how I end up feeling about the series, it’s definitely one that I need to be in the right mood and headspace for. As of now I am excited to continue (but I do need a break)

[@blacknbluecollarreader]

I love this review. I love your honesty and I do love this series. I also believe that if I picked this one up on a whim.....I probably would've DNF'd as well. I am so glad you will be continuing with this series because I am dying to hear your thoughts moving forward. This book truly is ......"just a chapter" in an amazing and wild ride.

[@storytoob]

Thanks so much! I really want to know just how wild it gets😂 I suspect TDTCB is nothing compared with what’s to come

[@HistoritorJimaldus]

@@storytoobyou are correct it’s amazing and disturbing 😅

[@thatsci-firogue]

Just finished my re-read of TDTCB and its honestly impressive just how much Bakker sets up that'll pay off in this trilogy alone.

[@storytoob]

I’m actually really excited to continue this series. I find that I haven’t stopped thinking about it since I finished the book

[@thatsci-firogue]

@@storytoob lucky for you each book starts with an extensive recap.

[@Red21Viper]

​​​@@storytoob That is really a testament of Bakker's powerful writing. So many people who love these books but, most importantly, also people who are sceptical about them cannot stop thinking of them. For some it is the themes and the philosophy, for others the vivid world and the premise of impending doom, others miss the complexity and introspection of the characters and others Bakker's beautiful purposeful prose. I, for one, tried and dnf Bakker twice many years ago. Both times midway of book two. Maybe I was too young. Other influences, other sensitivities. But damn, somehow, these books never left the small corner they haunted in my brain. After many years I felt the need to tread on that corner once more, wishing for the dark ride of my life. And what a ride it was. A revelation. Since that third effort they became my favourite books. I have reread them twice and I am just unable to stop thinking or discussing about them.

[@MacScarfield]

“I am not one more animal. (…) I am a man. I stand apart from these things.” Yeah, Bakker is definitely making Kellhus reference "Dune" there with the words used about the Gom Jabbar Test of the Bene Gesserit. Also definitely felt a John Le Carre Spy Story influence (more disillusioned conmen and indifferent bureaucracies then James Bond action) with Achamian: The Scarlet Spires seems to me as as much a reference to the sorcerer’s fortress from the OG Conan the Cimmerian story of “The Scarlet Citadel”, as to the Soviet “Red Fortress” of Kremlin from a Cold War Spy Novel!

[@Bookborn]

This was such a well done video. I REALLY love how you talk about reading in a vacuum and also how you articulated that things like low female POV or violence isn't necessarily the problem, it's when a lot of things intersect. Honored to have my video mentioned. Great review

[@storytoob]

Thank you so much! I had to mention it, it was a great video and I kept thinking about it while reading Bakker!

[@thefantasynuttwork]

I enjoyed hearing your thoughts and I’m glad you went into it with an open mind. Nice job with the video

[@storytoob]

Thanks Jimmy! I’m definitely glad that I picked this one up

[@thatsci-firogue]

A fair critique, Yolanda. Personally its one of my favourite Fantasy series but i can totally see why the use of sexual violence can be shallow for some but i appreciate that Bakker was shining a spotlight on the sexism of older Fantasy but making it unavoidable to ignore. My heart ached for Serwe and Esmenet throughout and thankfully Bakker addressed criticisms of his depictions of women as he goes, especially in Aspect-Emperor.

[@storytoob]

Chatting to people about this series has been so interesting and enriching, it’s clear that for many people Bakker’s critique shone through and worked, which is great! I can’t wait to get to Aspect Emperor now

[@thatsci-firogue]

@@storytoob yeah for me the intent shone through. That doesn't make it flawless and above criticism and obviously intentions can only go so far and its really the execution that matters. The series only gets more disturbing (for a variety of reasons) from here all the way to the Unholy Consult.

[@aerialruin8568]

Thanks for the thoughtful review. I just finished the entire 7 book series about 6 weeks ago and I think it's so brilliant, second only to Tolkien. Having said that I totally understand your criticism regarding his treatment of women, and certainly it is not for me to tell anyone that if they are offended they are wrong to be so. There were some cringe moments where I imagined that he was a fan of A Song of Ice and Fire and wanted to one-up the extreme parts of that series and that I found mildly distracting from the brilliance of the work. On the other side of the issue, and I'm not spoiling anything here ,there is a lot more female characters in the Aspect Emperor series and many of them hold a lot of power in the world despite how patriarchal it is. Overall the series is an oh so deep and profound study of human and spiritual darkness and so many other things, so very worth the ride, though a very very dark one it is indeed. Also just discovered your channel, Cheers.

[@storytoob]

Thank you so much for your comment! I have to say, despite my issues with The Darkness That Comes Before, I am really excited to continue the series. Everything I hear, especially about Aspect Emperor, makes me think I’m going to end up really loving it. At the very least it’s discussion worthy, which is also a huge concern plus. Cheers!

[@aerialruin8568]

@@storytoob Awesome, I hope you enjoy it and consider doing some discussions with other booktubers. as you progress.

[@storytoob]

@aerialruin8568 I would love that!

[@dlasis]

I LOVE this book. I cant wait to finish the third book of the first trilogy

[@EricMcLuen]

People either love the series or hate it, but I don't think anyone actually enjoys it. Regardless, it sticks in your brain for a while.

[@storytoob]

Yeah for pure enjoyment I’d want to read something else 😂 but I always appreciate a book/series that sticks in my brain and invites discussion

[@HistoritorJimaldus]

You can certainly enjoy parts of it - and the prose is excellent throughout

[@andrewhanson405]

This is a very good discussion. I had issues with how Bakker depicted women early on with this series, in particular with Serwë. Though still not perfect, the series improves a lot with how women are handled as it goes on. Esmenet eventually becomes one of the most fleshed out and nuanced characters as The Second Apocalypse progresses. I'll be interested in hearing your thoughts as you get a little deeper into the series. I hope it will be a less conflicting experience for you.

[@storytoob]

Yeah Serwë was probably the one I had the most issues with as well, and my experience with the book worsened after she was introduced. But I’m looking forward to the sequels and to seeing how it all evolves! Penciling them in for the first half of 2024 🤞🏻

[@joshyaks]

It's too bad you hesitated to make this video, because you very eloquently and intelligently presented your conflicting feelings about the book! I found this review very helpful because it's finally convinced me to pull it off my TBR after teetering on the fence with it for quite a while. Amongst other reasons, unlike you, I have an extremely grim and cynical view of life and humanity, and I don't need that darkness to be reinforced further for me! And as a paramedic who has plenty of hands-on experience with some of the worst that humanity has to offer, I just don't have the stomach for violence against women or children in my escapist entertainment.

[@storytoob]

Thanks for the comment! I’m glad my review helped, and I totally get that. Regardless of the intention that aspect of the series is there and made my stomach turn.

[@christine_reads]

I appreciate hearing your thoughts. I go back and forth on whether or not I want to start this series. I love books that are philosophical or tackle ideas but the dark aspect, rather the dark worldview, really holds me back. I hope you’ll share your thoughts on other books in this series while I get more comfortable on my fence sitting with this one.

[@storytoob]

Thanks Christine! Yeah being dark is certainly something that Bakker succeeds at and it’s not for everyone/not for every mood. Let me me know what you make of it if you do try it!

[@christine_reads]

I will definitely let you know. I keep leaning towards it more than away so I think it’s more of being in the right headspace and also knowing more about it up front. Your commentary on being in conversation with other readers to help navigate your reading experience resonates. Some books are “better” that way and I think this series seems to really allow for that dialogue.

[@HistoritorJimaldus]

Hope to see more videos on Bakker’s books :)

[@storytoob]

It will happen!

[@HistoritorJimaldus]

@@storytoob awesome :) it’s my favourite series of all time - your comments were very well-thought-out and interesting!

[@storytoob]

@HistoritorJimaldus thank you so much! I can’t promise when I’ll get to the next one but I hope it’ll be sooner rather than later (definitely this year)

[@BookishChas]

I loved this video! You had so many valuable thoughts, especially on the violence against women in the book. It wasn’t a great book for me, but I do plan to continue the series…someday. I’ll probably do the 4 book plan like you to start off.

[@storytoob]

Thanks Chas! Fingers crossed that the experience improves for both of us 🤞🏻

[@Red21Viper]

That was a really interesting video. I wonder why you had any doubts cause you did an excellent work in expressing what your thoughts on the book. Both positive and negative aspects. This series is my favourite and Bakker is my favourite author but I try to listen to criticism such as yours because I might not have the same degree of sensitivities to certain aspects. I am not sure you are going to like these books if you read more but they are really interesting and very well written. I find his experiments and thought provoking, controversial questions challenging and the story itself fascinating in its tragic, apocalyptical epicness. But I think that the story only gets bleaker and bleaker and though there are sparse redeeming moments, especially for women I think, the whole picture remains black. As an epilogue I would like to add my experience with the uncomfortable parts regarding women, and men actually. Reading these oppressive, nasty and manipulative behaviours, actually made me be more aware and self judgemental on how I treat and communicate with people. Women especially. Thats why I think Bakker might have some kind of point in what he does. Perspective is very important.

[@storytoob]

I really appreciate your comment, thank you for sharing your perspective! I was mainly nervous about making this video because it’s such a tricky subject matter to talk about, especially on the internet. Based on the comments I’ve been getting, I needn’t have worried! What I really appreciate about this book (and by extension, the series) is that it’s clearly saying something, regardless of whether it ends up landing for me personally or not. But I’m along for the ride and I hope that it does. Thanks again :)

[@thatsci-firogue]

Hi Yolanda, I would like to amend my initial comment on this as looking back I think I've phrased it incredibly poorly. When I said I appreciate that Bakker was shining a light on the sexism of older Fantasy, I should've made that its own sentence and not have had that in the same sentence as Bakker's examination of sexual violence. I don't enjoy reading sexual violence (nor do I think its necessary to be described in detail) I'd rather get a fade to black instead. What I tried to say was I appreciate that Bakker tried to tackle the sexism and systemic oppression of women in the past and in Fantasy fiction. However, it can be very gratuitous which is why I'm glad he got less reliant on it as he goes, its still there but not as prominently as it was before.

[@storytoob]

Oh totally! I understood! All good, no worries at all

[@RDsLibrary]

I watched your video a few days ago and you motivated me to finally pick up the book. It's been on my audiobook (I know, how to make things difficult!!) shelf for several years, but I've only heard very good or very bad things about it so it was great to hear your mixed experience. I just finished and agree with a lot of what you said. It's not as dense as expected, yet the amount of names, countries, factions and world lore made it a slow start. I had to use somebody's online reread to make sure I had things straight for the first 4 chapters. I think violent things happened to some of the men, but they happened to all of the women. I completely agree about the repetitive use of sexual assault in the story and the lack of nuanced response. It wasn't clear to me that a point was being made about this and I'm of the view that a story should stand on its own without the author or people who have read further having to explain things. My personal experience: I know grimdark means different things to different people, but it wasn't as grimdark as I expected - at least not as graphic on the page as it could have been. Several horrible things are mentioned but thankfully few are described in gory detail. While I was interested in the book, I wouldn't say I was excited or wowed by it. I could easily put it down yet was intrigued enough to pick it back up. I loved the story of the first apocalypse and how things are quietly stirring for a second, but at times it felt like watching a documentary about the crusades rather than being a gripping tale I was emotionally invested in. It did grab me enough to carry on at some point. I loved the writing and some of the philosophical stuff made me think. How you feel about things based on the environment you're in would made an interesting discussion. If you are in an ecosystem where most people love it, you might be more inclined to initially pick it up any then carry on even if there are bumps in the road. However, if you are in an environment where people dislike the book, then your reading experience could have been very different. No doubt this works both ways for lots of books. The various things that affect the reading experience yet have nothing to do with the book itself really interest me. Anyway, thanks for your thoughts. I hope book 2 works out for you.

[@storytoob]

Thanks for the comment! I’m glad I could help motivate you to pick up the book. I think I agree with pretty much everything you said, “violent things happen to some of the men but violent things happen to all of the women” pretty much hits the nail on the head in terms of my experience/frustration with it. You’re absolutely right in terms of our surroundings influencing our experience. If I had found myself in an echo chamber of people telling me they had a bad experience I probably would have felt validated in that aspect of it and my experience would have been more negative or one-sided. I usually don’t give a huge amount of weight to the author’s (alleged) intent if I don’t see it in the actual writing (like you said, it should stand on its own), although sometimes it can help you look at the writing differently in hindsight, on reread or when reading sequels. I shall report back when I read books 2 and 3! It’s definitely a series that invites discussion. Cheers!

[@someokiedude9549]

Great video Yolanda, this is a series I've been hesitant to try since a friend of mine got into a spat of sorts with Bakker several years back, and I have a hard time reading authors who get super defensive about their work...though this spat was over conflicting views on worldbuilding. It is a trilogy though and I am more likely to read a trilogy than a multi book epic (with exceptions of course) so perhaps I'll try it at some point. As for sexual violence in fantasy, this is also something that's troubled me for a long time. Why is it that the first thing that happens is that women get brutalized in horrible ways? Now I know this is not a new thing and fantasy is not the only genre that is guilty of this, but it's enough of a trend where it's a problem. It's actually something I would like to discuss at some point on my channel, though I haven't picked a specific angle to explore it from. But I think it's something that should be discussed at some point. Anyway, great video!

[@storytoob]

Thanks Britton! Yeah it’s something that I think about a lot (especially when reading books like this one of course, but also when I see reviews for, for example, A Game of Thrones, where I don’t remember it bothering me). But it’s such a tricky subject to discuss on the internet because it’s so easy to take out of context. Hence my hesitance over making this video in the first place. Definitely an important and discussion worthy topic though!

[@tgibridays]

Thanks for sharing your thoughts. This book (and series) has been popping up a lot recently for me and you've been the first one that I've seen to actually delve into these issues. And, strangely enough, your conflicted review has made me more interested in reading it than all the other purely positive reviews that didn't mention those issues. However, I might wait to see your thoughts on the sequels and whether or not you felt like Bakker was successful in what he was trying to do/say.

[@storytoob]

Thank you! I definitely think this is worth a read (if only to form your own opinion). I’m planning to read the sequels in 2024!

[@tgibridays]

@@storytoob well my TBR is unmanageably large at this point so I probably won't be getting to it anytime soon. Haha

[@olkor9832]

I just looked at several reviews of this book, as well as your review, and I want to thank you for being so open, it seemed to me that you were tense when you talked about this book and it was difficult for you, but thank you anyway I want to say that I have now almost finished reading the third part of this trilogy and I have completely opposite thoughts about this trilogy. Literally every viewer of this video, just like you, spent time talking about the attitude towards women, although it seemed to me that this was a small part of the story and it should have been about the plot and the main key events and philosophy of the book. I have found a literally perfect trilogy that I am ready to put on a level with the “First Law” trilogy, if not higher. And all thanks to this violence and attitude towards women in this trilogy... But I will explain. I condemn all this, but such a naive Hollywood cliché - when at the beginning of the film a bad guy slaps a girl on the ass, and at the end this girl with a grin gives this guy what he deserves seems to me like a childish trick and this is literally the first book devoid of such clichés, where the MAIN character can rape a slave girl and nothing will happen to him for it - this makes the reader understand that you are outside your comfort zone and that your cozy screenwriter is now on vacation. I sincerely don’t understand how people, as if with a veil in their eyes, don’t see this unique feature of the series. When the Author tries to build a world where the atmosphere and surroundings intensify the reader, where every step of the main character is accompanied by heavy sighs, everything will always be ruined by the scene where an army of enemies stands in front of him, and he gives him his long sword and cuts down the entire army. Thanks to this non-standard, non-politically correct technique, the author not only minimized but completely got rid of this problem. And in my memory this is the only series where there is such freedom. And yes, I really look forward to your reviews of the next books.

[@storytoob]

Thank you so much for your thoughtful comment! It’s perspectives like this that make me excited to continue with this series. I completely agree with you that a lot of “girl power” in stories (particularly in Hollywood) feels cheap, unearned and ultimately dishonest. I do appreciate that this series certainly doesn’t go for what’s easy. I’ll be reading the second one soon!

[@veszeljko7645]

Havent read the book but this was such an ijteresting and amazing video, good job

[@storytoob]

Thank you!

[@sasapejcin3568]

Great articulated review! I've read the first trilogy and I it's one of my favorite fantasies but I've only read a few so I'm not that competent to say one way or another! I adore grimdark subgenre if it's done well!

[@storytoob]

Thank you! Yeah I want to read more grimdark too, I have a few high on my tbr

[@ToddsBookTube91]

Todd here. Nice Review!

[@storytoob]

Thanks Todd!

[@ShawnC108]

I don't think you needed to worry about sharing this opinion at all. I think your experience with this book is probably going to be more in line with most readers who pick this book up so it is an important review in that sense. For myself I like this series quite a lot but I think Bakker made his series more niche than it needed to be for many of the reasons you mentioned. I understand the point he is trying to make about patriarchy but there is so much going on in these books that it is nigh impossible to give it the page time needed for it to feel justified.

[@storytoob]

Thanks for sharing! That totally makes sense. I’m looking forward to continuing and getting the whole picture (or at least that of the Prince of Nothing trilogy)

[@ladymairreads]

I came here as I’m partway through this book and the women thing is bothering me. I didn’t know about bakkers intent/words. I may continue.

[@storytoob]

Yeah if I hadn’t spoken to people that love the series I probably would have dnf’d. But I’ve been assured that it gets better and his intent becomes clearer as the series progresses. If you’re not feeling it though, give it a break! It’s pretty heavy

[@peternewman9606]

I think these books are best read in "chunks". So first 3 books then the last 4. Reading them one by one is a disservice to the story. As for the violence against women, i think the discussions about this many times overshadow the deeper themes of the book. It's no surprise really, there has been a comon trend both in fantasy and in the world to fight inequality... Sexism, racism etc. Ignoring the male rape that is also quite common, the simple fact that sorcerers are "damned" forever is another really intriguing and horrifying theme. No matter how much women suffer at least it ends. Achamian however (and any orher schoolman, no matter how decent and honorable) is destined to an eternity in hell simply for using sorcery once. Knowing this, women's fate in this world, even if it doesn't seem so at first glance, are infinitely better than that of any schoolman...

[@topskek9786]

These are books for men

[@storytoob]

I know a good few women that love the series!

[@Red21Viper]

​@@storytoobme too. Many actually