The DECLINE of dating; new research shows it's happening

[@Soma2501]

It gets annoying when people constantly speculate why younger men aren't dating without asking young men. Here are a few of my reasons as someone who is 23 1. The economy is bad right now. Even after graduating with a Bachelors in Engineering, it was difficult to find a job that allowed me to afford rent and the competition for entry level jobs is higher than its ever been. Not to mention many women think its immature to save money by staying at your parents place which is a dumb take imo. Having your own place is a priviledge right now and unfortuantely there arent a lot of down-to-earth women that understand this. 2. Getting into a relationship can be costly if my partner doesn't also have a job (and believes in splitting costs fairly which many women just want the man to pay while keeping their own salary to themselves) 3. Personal values differ from many women. For example, I don't separate sex from love and don't agree with promiscuity/hookup culture. Many women do and are very opportunistic when it comes to dating the next best thing and I'm not interested in women that are likely to jump ship 4. Being busy. I have various commitments such as career goals, education, hobbies, etc. that take up my time and energy, leaving little time for dating and relationships. The time I do have, I don't want to sink into the abyss by wasting it on dating when I'd rather hang out with friends, travel, etc. 5. Being tired of approaching every time. I've gotten dates by doing cold approaches but it leaves me mentally exhausted especially because it seems like im just a source of entertainment and the moment I stop talking in a suave way, they seem uninterested and detached. I try to put my best foot forwards while also being genuine so I dont pretend to be someone I'm not but it seems like theyre more interested in the caricature of an ideal man rather than accept any real depth of personality. If I had to choose one: to be myself or be loved, I'd choose to be myself which intrinsically makes it harder to date. 6. All I see around me are failed relationships, divorces, and current marriages where they hide they hate each other but stick around until their kid graduates. A healthy marriage seems like the exception and you never know what theyre hiding behind closed doors. All I'm ever told is to close my eyes to this and have faith that itll magically be different for me and things like prenups are expecting the marriage to fail so I shouldnt get one which is just idealistic bs. I don't want to be gaslighted into making the same mistakes as everyone else. Based on my experience, (granted these are just the people I surround myself with) it doesnt have to do with: 1. Being attractive. Most young men I know including myself consistently workout, dress well, have good hygiene, etc. 2. Porn. This is a cop-out unless you believe seeking pleasure is the only motivation for getting into a relationship. Regardless, I do believe limiting porn is good since it gives more time to do more meaningful things in our lives. However, theres a lot of pseudoscience bs like semen retention which are the wrong reasons. 3. Lack of effort or motivation. Many put in effort to meet potential partners, but face challenges such as limited opportunities, rejection, and especially difficulty finding someone who aligns with their values and interests.

[@ronnie5329]

I think number 3 rings true for quite an amount of men everywhere in the west. Stable women who are willing to build with men in their 20s, and not just wait at the finish line, is not easy to get ahold of for the average young man. If you say this to some women, they will bite at you and tell you its just you, something about you. What they probably mean is in their mind you gotta be some upper tier guy to get a shot at that, which def helps but to me looks like a broken society. Or dont exactly understand how difficult it is. I eventually found that with a filipina working as nurse here in my country in my mid 20s. She could see the potential in me even if i had not yet reached my peak. That in turn made me stronger. And yes we are still going strong today. I taught myself how to cook to help out more here after we had kids, even though i dont like to cook. But you do what is needed for each other. Its a 100/100 relationship, not 50/50. Modern day relationships can seem a bit too transactional and so I think it lowers trust between ppl.

[@theemilyandtoddpodcast]

Thanks for the thoughtful comment sir. You make a lot of valid points

[@jcransome5616]

Only One Reason…. THEY CANT

[@jamesmcinlay9037]

Can relate to number 5 for sure. Dance, monkey! And not just for cold approaches. Even after Tinder matches - same thing. A lot of instances where it feels like the woman just enjoys the validation and entertainment value of toying with the potential of a relationship. EDIT: Kept reading, want to add that yes, 100% same experience, "Most young men I know including myself consistently workout, dress well, have good hygiene, etc." Again, could just be the people I see / am around.

[@Eye_of_Horus]

Number 6 for me. The others too, but that’s the major one. Just keep seeing women nuke good relationships and marriages and seems not worth it.

[@annatar6453]

Modern dating is a game with no rules. And a game with no rules is broken, not fun and only cheaters win.

[@Bghandle]

I agree with everything except the last point. Can’t cheat in a game with no rules. More like the most ruthless players of the game win.

[@annatar6453]

@@Bghandle fair enough

[@person19863456]

More like no rules for women. A million restrictions for men

[@jcransome5616]

Nope. Attractive players win

[@Krelian4400]

1. Be attractive 2. Don't be unattractive

[@lonefurseal3607]

I think it boils down to two things: hyper individualism and hyper availability. Hyper individualism has been driving (in western cultures anyway) people to have fewer friends and embrace this "personal grind" mindset where we delay families and let go of our friends to focus on ourselves, our careers, etc. This applies to both men and women but especially men. Then there's hyper availability. Social media, dating apps, etc. have tricked us into thinking these hot, successful people are available to us and therefore have us thinking we can do better than our real life, in-person networks. This applies to both men and women, but, in my observation, especially affects women. Combine these, and we have people with smaller IRL social networks than ever (particularly men) and a perception of a prettier, higher status dating pool driving them further from the smaller pool of options they actually do have.

[@EvilFandango]

Why waste time on trying to date when you could do things that make you happy?

[@theemilyandtoddpodcast]

Because we are social creatures and life is better with company

[@EvilFandango]

@@theemilyandtoddpodcast That's why I enjoy my time with friends and family.

[@funky_monk_9796]

Thanks Emily and Todd for this insightful and articulate discussion. I think we need a hard reset and a new framework for dating/mating. For centuries, the traditional male/female role divide spelled out what each gender needed to do, easy peasy. It's only VERY recently (1960s) that we have begun to deconstruct society's systems and protocols in the name of equality. Equality is vital, but we have not reordered society sufficiently in order to make finding a mate possible in the midst of modern life's frantic pace and complexity. Online dating is dead (or will be soon). Singles clubs, holidays, events (currently seen as uncool, desperate, clichéd perhaps) is the way forward. Everyone involved knows the agenda, the context is set up for a clearly defined purpose (find a partner) and most importantly, people meet face to face, not through a phone. This is the modern equivalent of the dances of the 1930s, 1940s and 1950s where people would go to meet potential partners. Society is becoming more and more fractured with working remotely, online communications etc. We need to get together in a room again.

[@theemilyandtoddpodcast]

Thanks for the thoughtful comment. I hope you’re correct moving forward.

[@funky_monk_9796]

@@theemilyandtoddpodcast Thanks for your reply. Your channel is great, I hope your following grows more and more. Liking and replying to comments makes a big difference for audience engagement 👍👍 peace ✌

[@bewilderedbrit8928]

Failed relationship did it for me. 8 years down the drain. I went though a shagging spree for the first year of being single. I am almost at the 4 year mark and ive totally destroyed my ability to pair bond since being monogamous. I havent fornicated in almost 2 years. Lost all desire for it. Women are so self centred and aren't worth the hassle. I still pine for the old days when life with the ex was fun and care free. I think the fact that im 33 makes it impossible for me to date. I feel like I need to have a shared history with soneone to even contemplate being in a relationshin, let alone to be able to sincerely say "I love you" to someone. A randomer off an app or from a bar ain't gonna cut it.

[@theemilyandtoddpodcast]

33 is still young and although it’s extremely difficult I wouldn’t give up yet.

[@carmeld45]

Lust is also a emotion, so who is more emotional. Emotions are not a masculine or feminine trait, it is a human trait.

[@mesooofrugal775]

Dating isn't the same. It's gone down hill I feel

[@Jay-ef2ii]

SPECIAL COMMENT: Men should just work on themselves each and every day. It's not about dates when one is young but it is about one getting his education while attending college. Once the person is prepared then he can search for a Woman at the workplace or through the APPS. Men should refine themselves each and every day and do their best in being their best selves. Kisses and intimacy with women don't pay the bills so men have to be prepared educationally and financially and then they can seek love later on in life. Men should seek hobbies along with community service so they can fight the loneliness that they may get during life (because of not having a Woman). Love in 2023 and beyond will be very hard, but you must prepare first. Never mind about Women. You will always have Women each and every day. There is a Woman who is turning 19 years of age each and every day. So don't worry! Focus on yourself and be happy and then when you least expect you will find someone nice and educated such as yourself at the workplace, take care. Be safe, and be blessed in reading this message. July 14, 2023. USA.

[@ZeroCtr1]

this lady left her husband

[@theemilyandtoddpodcast]

For good reason - Todd. Don’t be so judgmental. Emily is as high quality as it gets

[@Steve_the_Lion]

Pursuing a western woman these days is almost as bad as having your toenails pulled out.

[@jenniferkincheloe786]

How sad that they think relationships are about domination.

[@jamesmcinlay9037]

Bruce Lee is alive and writing dating advice?

[@jcransome5616]

YOU CANT FIRE ME. I QUIT can’t get a date I’m mgtow!!

[@jcransome5616]

After 30 options dried up on and offline despite staying in shape and aging gracefully etc! Unlike most I can admit I’m just not wanted anymore. These red pillers and bald bearded copers are such a joke of copers

[@mouadrimwind8839]

Damn but you look great in that picture so things did not improve even tho you levelled up ?

[@jcransome5616]

@@mouadrimwind8839 thanks... but it truly mean nothing... Theres always taller and younger dudes dming her and approaching. Also in the PNW oofy doofy is pretty common.. SOyattle Washington

[@mouadrimwind8839]

@@jcransome5616 damn I always assumed things would improve with age if a man is putting in the work with finances, body, fashion etc, it does take a long time to achieve those things but meeting new people is always very hard I find compared to when I was in college

[@jcransome5616]

@@mouadrimwind8839 yeah I would kill to go back to college. Ncaa athlete and no dating apps..although when i was 22 it would have been a great advantage for apps

[@mouadrimwind8839]

@@jcransome5616 I am also thinking that the main reason was really the easy access to a lot of dating options, back in college I was skinnier much more immature etc but just by being in that environment you meet people all the time so it becomes easier to date. This component of social access to a lot of peope organically is really the game changer I feel, once you leave that environment it takes great social skills to be able to meet new people organically again

[@haloiscool1235]

I think 3 reasons why men are not wanting to date now. 1. Coping 2. The difference between a average women and a model is smaller than a the gap between average men and models. 3. The average testosterone is lowering further decreasing male attractiveness and male’s desire for women.

[@numberproof7228]

I think these are generally correct, but I also think there is another reason: Pornography. Most men (and probably a lot of women too) are watching pornography which is, on a regular short term basis satisfying their physical desire for sexual interaction. If you took porn away from men I guarentee lots of guys would start trying a lot harder to get with women.

[@haloiscool1235]

@@numberproof7228 porn is probably would be included in my 3rd point. Like a thing causing the decreasing testosterone. Men aren’t putting them selves in stressful situations like approaching women in person. In fact I look around and men in general avoid stressful situations far more then any point I could recall not even including dating. Now of course to much stress can decrease test. But the beginning stages of stress has shown to increase test.

[@Corgiking521]

I think on the men’s side of things it’s largely a cope. They can’t compete or struggle to in the dating market but masquerade that with saying they aren’t interested.

[@courtneyharris1006]

Its both. Being that dating is men pursuing women with courtship resource etc its viable to assume many would put it off even if they have options. Whereas women typically say they aren't interested when the men they want are not pursuing them. Both cope and both have viable reasons to not be interested.

[@CutACrow]

Cope? No, demoralized? Yes. Men use a logical lens when looking at something due to being told early on to bottle up/ignore their emotions. Its only logical to not play a losing game where the only winning move is none at all.

[@niledunn1542]

I think this a oversimplification of a complicated issue. Everyone copes with their circumstances.

[@Corgiking521]

@@niledunn1542 ​ what I’m saying is that men saying they don’t want/aren’t interested in dating are lying to themselves. They do want to date, they do want to get with women but they can’t compete. So it’s not truly that they aren’t interested. It’s a lie to themselves to cope with the fact they are uncompetitive in the dating market.

[@ronnie5329]

That sounds a bit like the black pill. Do completely dissolutioned or depressed men exist, yes, some check out and spend some years in their moms basement before they find a purpose. Yea they are not gonna have any chance until they get away from that situation. These men have always existed. I think a lot of average men see what they think is needed, and think its not worth the hassle. I really do see online dating mentioned a lot where, in the studies, 80% of women, use it merely to get a confidence boost. Not to actually date. This can also provide some avg guys with a faulty idea, that they dont have any options at all and maybe check out before trying. Best chance is to meet in real life today for avg guys, going for girls that arent on the college trajectory. Then we have some women, who go to college, who often start dating seriously after college. Making things harder for them, as they are left scrambling in late 20s. There are many things going on in todays dating world, that wouldnt be considered normal just 20 years ago. Its chaotic, many women arent very feminine and those who are get taken quick. I could go on but im gonna stop here

[@carmeld45]

Why are you trying to force women into relationships?

[@seymourbutts7872]

Good talk.

[@sitka49]

So I think challenges in The Mating Market are coming from many directions one of the main ones that will be pertinent to the people that are listening is the increase in female achievement in education and employment now about 50 years ago when Title 9 came in that was a 13% swing in favor of men to women in universities were significantly more men than women and now 50 years later 2023 it's a 15% point swing between men and women at the University and so it's in the other direction there are two women for every one man in a four year us college degree, and women now on average between the ages of 21 and 29 make $1300 more than their male counterparts. women are roughly twice as likely as men to say that they will value financial viability in a man, and for him to increase his rating on a 10-point scale by two points he requires around a tenfold increase in his salary. For a woman to achieve the same two point Improvement on a 10-point scale in a salary would need to increase by 10,000 times, a woman is concerned about a partner's socioeconomic status. Now you can start to see that if you have a world in which women are attending University at high rates they are achieving more success in employment at least in that sort of 21 to 29 age range, which is when most people are perhaps looking for potential partners, and yet the socioeconomic status of a partner to a woman is a big determinant of that level of attraction. You can start to see how this could cause a problem? A man with a master degree gets 90% more right swipes than a man with a bachelor's degree so for all of the guys that are considering going and getting a masters degree even if you think it's going to be useless at least except the fact that you get 90% more right swipes. Most men will quit online dating in 3 months, of starting a profile

[@MsR-bl1df]

Something I notice with the topic of SMV, is that woman’s fertility is not factored in. They think that a 25 year old woman’s “match” is another 25 year old guy with the same socio economic status. But this is only equal for him not her. A woman brings children into the world so her match is actually someone that is slightly older and better off financially. That way it compliments what she brings to the table, which is children. She births the kids and he finances them. That’s actually more equal for her. I think we tend to underestimate the value women bring into relationships simply because they are the sex that is gifted/burdened with bearing children. PS: I’m oversimplifying just for the sake of conversation…. Women should be loving partners and they don’t get a pass just because they birth children. However, we tend to not give enough credit to women for their huge contribution in my opinion

[@evalebedinsky3830]

Thanks for saying this! Womens bodies and brains are never the same after giving birth and women sacrifice a lot to bear children. They are not appreciated enough for what they offer and are minimized into essentially a house maid that you get to have sex with. It’s no wonder women aren’t dating men who have nothing to provide.

[@nurtaytulegenov7431]

We don't even know if this exact women wants children with him or wants them at all. Like lots of my female friends delay children stage to their late 30s and it's very unlikely that at 24 this exact boyfriend will last 11 years in committed relationships. So argument that 25 yo female have more value to the table is very situational. It only has value when women dates to make a family

[@MsR-bl1df]

@@nurtaytulegenov7431 I hear you

[@youtubesucks2755]

bro it’s not that deep. Nobody is thinking all of this. Women just can afford to be picky, hence they are picky. Even after that most of the time they are emotionally unavailable or lazy or both. They don’t have the motivation to pursue what they want and are constantly moving on from one relationship to another without healing.

[@tayw6466]

Hey another great episode! I cannot express how much I appreciate conversations like this. I definitely think in the realm of pill-persuaders we need more women like Emily, she is great at making sure women are held accountable, but instead of in ALL situations like some of the women who are getting into this space, Emily only does it when appropriate, she has a very reasonable and thoughtful way of looking at things. I have a question for Todd though, and this is a kind of private, male-only, type question so I would ask Emily not read this part cause I need a male perspective before I open this up to a woman's input so I would really appreciate it if only Todd read this next part. Todd- Yo, is Emily dating anyone? what is the best social network to slide into her DM's? I really would love to take her out for a casual lunch one day and get to know her more I bet shes a lovely person. Obviously if shes seeing someone I will respect that but I gotta find out cause it's very distracting to have a crush when I'm trying to learn from you both.

[@jeffm5991]

This is the epitome of "the worst she can say is no."

[@tayw6466]

@@jeffm5991 Sorry, I don't get it. I know what the words mean, "the worst she can say is no" , but does it reference something in pop culture? a meme? a movie/tv show?...and what does it mean to be the epitome of it

[@jeffm5991]

@tay w I just think asking a podcast host on a date over a comment section is kinda ridiculous, but good on you for trying. I'm sure she stopped at the "do not read further" part.

[@tayw6466]

@@jeffm5991 the "for males only" part was supposed to be the tell-tale sign that what I was saying was a joke, obviously expecting someone to stop reading a comment halfway through is a ridiculous premise, other ridiculous things I included to make it clear it was a joke was asking out the host of a podcast through the comment section, and also doing it by asking the other host to leak me inside info I am very sorry if you didn't realize it was a joke, it was not intended to fool anyone or to upset anyone.

[@jeffm5991]

@@tayw6466 Jokes are supposed to be funny.

[@amalaa8964]

its because men don't have the desire to stay consistent with a women or do their emotional duties and or stay consistent with it , and that leaves the woman to become not want to continue with them anymore thus leaving.

[@ronnie5329]

That sounds more like something you experienced