The Deconstruction Movement: How the Church Should Respond

In this video Gavin Ortlund shares two strategies for responding to those deconstructing their faith.
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00:00 The Deconstruction Movement
09:31 Sponsorship
11:31 (1) Attentiveness
26:38 (2) Apologetics
48:58 Contact
53:39 Future Videos

[@erichodge567]

I am not a believer, but I like Gavin Ortlund. He's honest, and I appreciate that he plays fair with non-belief. That's why I watch this channel.

[@boatcaptain6288]

That's awesome that you're listening despite not being Christian; that's what being open minded and tolerant of other beliefs really means! You're demonstrating maturity and intelligence unlike many others. God bless you.

[@susanburrows810]

Wow...keep watching. You just never know what God's Spirit can do😊.

[@coreyfleig2139]

Eric - when you're not online, do you have someone you can chat with one on one? Just curious!

[@margyrowland]

Jesus is calling you. Faith is a gift from Him. Ask Him for help to understand what’s happening and for guidance about what to do next. Your life now will be so much better and you will have the opportunity of eternal happiness that only faith in Him can bring 💟✝️💟

[@szilardfineascovasa6144]

Kudos to you! It was refreshing to read that.

[@LoriLev1107]

I "deconstructed" from Catholicism in the 1980s, only to discover Jesus as my savior and Lord! When I realized that He is real and so much greater than a man-made institution, it made all the difference. I was sooooo relieved I didn't have to be an atheist. Although it wasn't an easy decision because I knew he wanted my whole life. I'm so glad after all these years that Jesus chased after me!

[@thejerichoconnection3473]

This sounds weird. Were your Catholic priests denying Jesus is our Lord and our savior?

[@benjaminwatt2436]

that's beautiful. Keep the faith. Jesus give true hope, meaning and a life worth living

[@joeoleary9010]

@@thejerichoconnection3473 Have you heard of the Reformation.

[@saintejeannedarc9460]

So did you go back to Catholicism, or did you find that too rigid and institutionalized?

[@TheChristianNationalist8692]

Amen!

[@lafamigliabazzani499]

Reconvert is a thing too (just for the record). Not sure how many of us are out there but we do exist!

[@McGheeBentle]

I absolutely think that this trend won’t continue. I’m a 23 year old and I guess I am a “Gen Z”. What I’ve experienced in both myself and the people around me is the yearning for stability, tradition, structure, and historicity. People my age grew up in an already post-modern world. There was no stability. We were told messages like, “we’re going to throw away the old structures and traditions. They’re arbitrary and outdated.” And “your truth is yours, my truth is mine. There really is no one sure truth.” And “religion is what our cavemen brains needed back in the day to explain the world around us. We have no need for that now that we have science.” These are not new messages to us, I grew up hearing things like this. This was my “normal.” Not to mention all sorts of other social things around me that were considered “normal”… (every other child my age had divorced parents, adderall was being given to one in every four boys, a lot of brokenness in general). So many of us now are searching for stability. A lot of us are curious and open to historical ways of thinking and traditions. We’re reacting to what we grew up with. I think what’s missing in many of these conversations is that the reaction to all of this is coming. And it’s going to be huge. What’s new will be what’s old.

[@Ehllix]

that's very interesting and uplifting, thanks for sharing your perspective!

[@thedynamicsolo4232]

Well said. If you seek with a heart for finding the stability and wisdom, He brings it to you!!! Hosea 4:6

[@McGheeBentle]

@@thedynamicsolo4232 Amen, He surely does. God is so unchanging, so faithful to His people. He is Stability. He is our Firm Foundation. Trusting in Him really is like building a house on a rock!!

[@Yj-Fj]

In the end, everyone will know the immovable, unshakable, immortal, eternal, everlasting God of all the universe. Whether we like it or not.

[@Yj-Fj]

Excellent!

[@brando3342]

I am struggling, as a single man in his 30's, and an introvert. I moved to another province, away from the church I grew up in, and since Covid, have found a way to watch the service online. I know that isn't good enough though. There is a traditional Anglican church down the road that I want to start going to, but when Sunday morning roles around, I just find myself not going. Could you please pray for me that I would step outside my comfort zone, and just go to be with people of God? Thank you.

[@PreciousBloodOfJesus7777]

I've heard Anglican use female priests. Maybe EO is better. Just literally anything but RC 🤣

[@brando3342]

@@PreciousBloodOfJesus7777 That's why I said "traditional Anglican", they are the conservative ones lol

[@JW_______]

As an introvert from a family of introverts, I understand completely. I moved last year and started attending a new church about 6 months ago. May I suggest that when you start going that you don't set any expectations on yourself to have to stay and socialize? Give yourself permission to just go in and go out after the service for the first few months. Secondly, give yourself permission to be socially awkward (if that's the case for you). As an introvert, it's often my pride that causes me the most stress, because I hate that people around me can see my social weakness, and assume that they'll think that this means I'm a weak person. This is a giant assumption, because many people at churches are introverts themselves or have close loved ones who are introverted. You're really not likely to shock or inconvenience anyone by being there. Thirdly, remember that it's our Christian responsibility to love others, even if that means that we have to embrace humility and bear being misunderstood or unknown for a season while entering a new community. Staying away from community because we fear social judgement is like saying, "unless you recognize my strengths, I'm not going to extend the love of Christ to you." (In case it's not obvious, I'm articulating this commemt for myself as much as for you.)

[@ninjason57]

Theres tons of other introverted adult men in your situation, I was one of them. My recommendation is to just build the courage to do one act, join a men's small group and consistently go. You will find the support you're looking for. Trust God will do it, he did it for me.

[@morewayne]

I'm praying for you to receive the courage and energy you need, brother. God bless 🙏🏼

[@Rhi25]

The apologetics part really hits me, I always say to myself that "I must know this, I must know that" for the sake of my weak brothers and sisters in faith just to find myself that I am about to overload due to all of this knowledge. I pretended that I can bear the burdens alone, in fateful twist of irony, I am the one who also struggles from the questions that I braced myself to answer. When you said brother Ortlund that "we may not be able to compel or force assent from every person, and that's fine" I realized, maybe I left the Holy Spirit in the equation, maybe I believed too much in my own methods, or even subconsciously maybe I wanted to be omniscient. Or finally maybe God wants to humble me, to trust that "His grace is sufficient." In both what I know and what I don't know.

[@danoctavian8184]

you spoke my thoughts exactly 🥲

[@thecatalysm5658]

I sincerely feel like we can quickly become overwhelmed by theology. I have mixed feelings about expecting every Sunday school teacher, small group leader, or pastor to be able to handle satisfactorily every nuance of theology and every challenging question from the Bible. I am definitely an advocate of a sort of middle way Christianity. Too much theology makes can make us crazy and cause unnecessary division while too little of it leads us to complacency and a low view of Scripture.

[@Ehllix]

@@thecatalysm5658 Yes, Same!! I have started to see Christianity as a whole in this sense. The spectrum of the church these days goes from strict theological dogmatic structure to loose, open/self interpretation of the faith. I believe there are certain positives or advantages to be pulled from each extreme, however living your faith fully in either one can be extremely harmful.

[@elijahfunk2710]

Amen brother

[@johnlin5550]

6:11 "Not just what is okay, but what is best." I agree, and I respect you for this.

[@fishtail1129]

This is so good. As parents, we take our kids’ faith journey so personally. Like we feel attacked by their questions. Giving kids a safe place to question and work through things will keep them coming back to you. If you shut them down you will only accelerate their movement away from faith. ITA that many have a very shallow, experience oriented faith. It’s no wonder that when dealing with big life challenges they fall apart because their foundation is sand.

[@warrenroby6907]

The G Campbell Morgan example was spot on. For the record he ended up embracing some form of Ultimate Reconciliation which is where more and more of us are going.

[@pappywinky4749]

Thank you for bringing a positive position on this. My season of deconstruction has been a hard one and it often feels alienating. I pray God will use this time in my life to help others who go through this.

[@stephenbailey9969]

For those raised in some church, many have had to move from received religious culture to true faith. It is a personal experience of growth, moving from mere ideas and habit into personal relationship with the Lord Jesus. Some people go through an interim of experimentation and distancing, but later find Jesus on the road of life. In the end, every person must decide for him or her self.

[@phillipgriffiths9624]

You are one of the few people on KZbin with whom I completely agree with.

[@ninjason57]

I think everyone has a moment in life when they are forced to reflect on what they believe and how that translates into their lifestyle. I grew up in a Christian background and "left the faith" (really just became apathetic) but when life hit me hard I felt lost and I had to decide if I was really going to trust God or not. So I researched the evidence for Christianity and believed it to be truth. Now my faith is more grounded than ever. I look back at my earlier years and question if I ever truly had faith to begin with. I think my experience is one example of why Christians deconstruct. I'm grateful for the grace of God to open my heart to the truth in Christ.

[@littlemas2]

I am not a TEDS grad, but my Dad is and many of my friends are. I'm glad they are supporting you and you are promoting them. New TEDS President Kevin Kompelien has been a blessing in my life. I'm sad to see him leave as President of the Evangelical Free Church of America, but glad for our seminary to have him.

[@JesusChristKing]

“For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.” - 2 Timothy 4:3-4

[@PreciousBloodOfJesus7777]

May I ask what church you attend friend?

[@JesusChristKing]

@@PreciousBloodOfJesus7777 I do as the Lord leads me, and fellowship where and when I can. As Jesus says: “What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.” - 1 Corinthians 6:19-20

[@AshandElm]

Truth Unites is probably my favorite channel on KZbin. Your videos and books have been a great blessing to me, Dr. Ortlund.

[@krizilloo2538]

Dr. Ortlund, you bring me to tears.

[@taylore22]

Everything you said I have experienced or have been the person who wasn't thoughtful or wanted to listen it has been such a humbling and disciplining season from the Lord, but I am thankful He does. But man do I have to say brother I am sooooooo thankful to Jesus for your channel it is sooo full of the Spirit and humility. How I knew this was a channel to support and keep telling others about is the fruit and the videos you make! Truly this whole video needs to be played for those in the body. What a great reminder for constant humility and dependence on Christ.

[@unexpectedTrajectory]

This was great, brother. Shared with my pastor. Keep up the work!

[@Wericii]

I really appreciate your dialogue, demeanor, and honesty. I deconstructed last year, and it was a profoundly scary experience. It’s not something I would wish on anyone, to be honest. After having gone through it, I can appreciate the sense of community and security that a faith system can offer. Even though I’m not convinced that the truth claims of many faith systems are accurate, I do not necessarily agree that that society is better off without it.

[@ArticulateApologetics]

Man I LOVE the new setup Gavin!

[@dogmatika7]

The new studio is so atmospheric! It really suits you. God bless.

[@nontypicalguy]

I've bought your Theological Triage book, and when people ask me who wrote it, I share one of your videos - This is no exception

[@cheezman9180]

I wish I had these videos when I was 20 rather than now at almost 30. It has really been a comfort for me, I really appreciate your work. Thank you!

[@Basicallybiblical116]

I just recently found your channel through your Remnant Radio appearance, then through some of your creation stuff/ Ken Hamm responses. I gotta say I am loving what you are putting out. I have gotten A LOT from your content even in the short time I've been watching. Looking forward to binging some of the backlog and seeing what new stuff you have coming out! Thank you sir! God Bless!

[@OldPirate1718]

People don't need judgement, they need ears to hear from whomever they are talking to...too many churches are only "open for business" during church time

[@benjaminwatt2436]

I'd say thats a criticism for believers. All of us as Christ's ambassadors must be activily seaking those in need

[@EnglishMike]

Just don't do it online with random Bible verses in comments on videos that have nothing to do with religion. That gets really annoying fast (and it's lazy).

[@brunoarruda9916]

Really helpful as always, Gavin!

[@ericzimmerman9287]

Hi Gavin, great topic! One of the most pressing in the church today. I'm glad you mention sharing the gospel in a culturally sensitive way, this is extremely important, to do and do well because I think there is a pitfall there that needs to be avoided as well. I live and work everyday in what would be best described as the dominate progressive culture in America. Before that though I lived in an urban working class culture, and it is both very different and very much in trouble. Alcoholism and suicide is a big problem in this community, but there is a bigger problem. We can't make the mistake of believing that there is just a single "the culture" in the US. There are many cultures and sub cultures. This is important because there is a relatedness between the cultures that is unavoidable, and a pitfall. I would suggest that in the dominate progressive culture there that is a list of things that aren't sins that is problematic for christians, this much is easily understood by most christians. But there is also a list of sins for which there is no forgiveness. The problem arises when the urban working class culture is most likely to be guilty of these unforgivable sins, both actually and just perceived. As the evangelical church moves to reach the dominate progressive culture, it also has in many cases become more accommodating of the sins of that culture, and also more unforgiving of the sins that culture abhors. This isn't lost on the urban working class. As we reach out to an increasingly lost society made up of many cultures, we need to stand fast on truth, but also preach the grace of God. A grace to immense that it extends even to the people your culture has no grace for.

[@toughbiblepassages9082]

The entire concept of the “deconstruction” movement is SO silly.. all i have found it to mean is that you hear a better argument for or against something so you change your mind… newsflash, thats not new, that has always happened and will always happen and SHOULD happen in everyone’s lives about any topic.. why is this considered a movement?? Its because the younger generation that coined this term have NEVER changed their mind about anything before, so now that they experienced changing their mind for the first time, it “shattered” their world and they wanted to make it a movement.. how stubborn do you have to be to consider that you might be wrong about something as a life altering realization?? If that’s where so called “deconstruction” comes from, this younger generation is absolutely ignorant of anything outside their pronoun declarations 🙄

[@EnglishMike]

Deconstruction is a useful descriptive term, so I am not surprised it has become popular. Calling it a movement is more political, and serves both sides equally well. For non-believers, it's to encourage doubters to join them, for believers it's something to be fearful or and unite against. In the end, there's no point in arguing that the terms are wrong or unnecessary. Arguing semantics simply avoids discussing the issues themselves.

[@not2bryte]

I went to TEDS in the late 80s! Nice to know you were there, Gavin! 🙂

[@prestonyannotti7661]

I'm really thinking about going to seminary after highschool what should I know or look out for?

[@benjaminwatt2436]

@@prestonyannotti7661 Personally i would look for something that fits your current theological stances. You will be around like minded and sincere fellow beleivers plus all universities should challenge your beleifs without being the polar opposite of where you are spiritually

[@Caru14]

Love the new set up! Also, atheism always ends up in nihilism. Period.

[@richardpallotta6158]

Gavin, you are The Man.

[@Jim-Mc]

I'm a believer who attends but doesn't have an active church life partly because I'd like to change denominations and partly because of work. Having to drag my wife to church is also a challenge and this would would be compunded if I tried to get her to travel a greater distance and be more active. I don't see myself dropping off but I'm sympathetic to all the many challenges people have. I feel like I'm barely treading water.

[@prestonyannotti7661]

Pray my friend also having a church in your house might be necessary. Go to Bible studies if possible even if church might be difficult it doesn't mean you have stop having a communal connection with God

[@mamafortuin]

I would humbly suggest that you visit and experience an Eastern Orthodox parish to experience its transcendent, sublime and majestic beauty and come face to face with the Living God in a way you never have before. 🥰🙏⛪️ Christianity originated in the East and its ancient modes of worship are holistic. We aren’t spirits with bodies. Human nature consists of both spirit AND body. The modern stark, barren and sterile places of worship don’t and can’t speak to the reality that, “we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses.” (Hebrews 12:1) The Lord, His angels and the host of Heaven are instead relegated to the “second storey” of the Kingdom of God waaaay off in the distance. They are so far away that the heavenly reality inevitably becomes non-existant to the modern mind. The engagement of the body in Orthodox worship through the senses- sight, smell, taste, touch, hearing- purifies the heart, mind and spirit so that one can discern the invisible reality which is represented in the iconography, candles, incense and other symbols found in Orthodox temples and praxis. Now is a wonderful time to visit because the Orthodox Church is still in the Lenten season so there are more services and hence more opportunities to, “Come, taste and see that the Lord is good!”If you can, especially experience the Holy Week services. God Bless you and your wife. 🙏❤️☦️

[@EnglishMike]

Then I suggest you don't drag your wife to church. Let her make up her own mind as to how she leads her life. You can't force her. You need to come to a mutual understanding about what you each want out of your relationship regarding questions of religion and then reach a compromise which best suits both of you, even if it's not what you most want to happen.

[@OldPirate1718]

Big churches put on big Worship music extravaganzas on Sundays...pastors try to be hip and try to make sin and its effects less impacting...sermons are boring when a preacher takes 3 or 4 verses and hammers it for 30 min, saying the same stuff over and over and over...then you have the clown tv preachers...a sermon should have the Bible passage, what historically was happening at the time, how it relates to today...I don't need anyone to read the passages 40 times in 30 minutes

[@marvinfrancis7599]

Thank you again, Dr. Portland, for your heart, and wise words. I know you give thanks for these to the Giver.

[@marvinfrancis7599]

I typed "Dr. Portland"!

[@marvinfrancis7599]

Dr. Ortland!

[@brianm.9451]

Relationality is so important and with my friends who deconstructed, this was big for them. A few grew up in fundamentalist cults so relationships were weaponized to keep people in. In the same vein, your example of the Sunday School teacher snapping at the child shows Christians preached reconciliation without ever living it out. Deconstruction isn’t a scary term for me because anyone who’s had a journey of faith knows how difficult it can be. If I can empathize with them and show that some Christians genuinely do care that they stay, that someone has their back, I’m game.

[@tjflash60]

Thank you. I think grace and patience could be essential in our encouragement. Mark 9:24 I believe help my un-belief.

[@SaucyDog420]

“You always want to do not just what is okay, but what is best.” - Gavin Ortlund A lot of Christ followers could learn from this statement (myself included).

[@saemideluxe]

Yay, looking forward to hear your thoughts about Annihilationism!

[@doubtingthomas9117]

Me too. I became persuaded of the Conditionalist/Annihilationist position over the past few years, having grown up believing in ECT.

[@warrenroby6907]

I hope he gives serious consideration of Ultimate Reconciliation which is what many of us have “deconstructed” into. For me it was like being born again again!

[@EnglishMike]

@@warrenroby6907 Yeah, I am no longer a Christian, but the idea that your eternal faith was locked in based on what you believed the moment you died was always objectionable to me. The very fact that if you're not born into a Christian family or community the chances of dying a Christian are less than 1% should give more Christians pause for thought. Free will simply isn't a plausible argument when basic childhood religious education is enough inoculate billions of Muslims and Hindus from ever becoming a Christian. Annihilationism is infinitely better than ECT, but it's still infinitely worse than going to Heaven. (Infinities are tricky beasts.)

[@Ben_G_Biegler]

This video made me happy

[@ChadGrindstaff]

Good advice. Not necessarily the tactics but the spirit of the message here is helpful to me in understanding my error in talking to people with zealous declarations of “one true church.” Atheism and deconstruction can be a stumbling block to my hearing, but that’s in the wheelhouse of my patience. Doesn’t bother me as much as the religious communities. I’ve deconstructed to construct because Gods reality and goodness is undeniable. To come to a conclusion that people who affrim the Godhead and resurrection of Jesus Christ are going to hell because of a wrong denomination is wild to me. It then feels disingenuous to suggest it’s not an issue of the souls destination like pronounced anathemas. It’s so outrageous to me I believe it purveys the extremes of deconversion and universalism. Oddly I believe it’s people who transitioned from a more liberal lifestyle of atheism or universalism who purvey these very ideas. Sincere love is the way. Thanks

[@susandixson5830]

A must listen

[@MarkWCorbett1]

I agree that it is important to review the basic, beautiful, powerful gospel with people and also to ask them if they would like to become a Christian and receive God's forgiveness and gift of eternal life.

[@joechillstudios]

So I guess you could say, I experienced a type of deconstruction, but then I sort of reconstructed almost immediately. I ended up leaving low Church Christianity because I felt it couldn’t give answers to problems, and when I asked for answers, I was often shamed and ridiculed. I distinctly remember asking about church history and being shot down and told that there’s no point in studying the history of the Christian Church through the last two millennia. Eventually I interviewed Roman Catholic priests, pastors, you name it from all corners of Christianity. My goal was to Try and get a better understanding. Now I have since wound up in a more high church theology within Protestantism and personally feel that my walk with God is invigorated and renewed in my walk because now I have the other puzzle pieces. On deconstructing from one thing and reconstructed to another within Christianity. I would like to know peoples thoughts on this if this and if anybody else has something similar.

[@josephaggs7791]

I Recently left progressive Christianity for orthodoxy, in fact they introduced me to it ironically. It was part of my reconstruction

[@PreciousBloodOfJesus7777]

How was the transition? Like did you just start going to an Orthodox Church or did you need to go through a process?

[@brando3342]

@@PreciousBloodOfJesus7777 There is a difference between orthodox Christianity and the "Orthodox Church", yes it's confusing, but that is why we usually preface "Orthodox" with "Eastern" or "Oriental". I could be wrong but I believe the OP means "orthodox" as in, in line with traditional teachings. Not the "Eastern Orthodox Church".

[@PreciousBloodOfJesus7777]

@@brando3342 Right I gotcha. I believe there's also Ethiopian and Assyrian orthodoxy? But yeah I was making that assumption he meant EO because I'm personally considering that and have it on the brain.

[@josephaggs7791]

@@PreciousBloodOfJesus7777 i was starting to deconstruct as i moved to a city with a large Greek Orthodox population. It was already in my mind. So i started going to these churches and found out that the theology i was taught almost guaranteed deconstruction and that orthodoxy supplied a better outlook that made a whole lot of sense. Im not sure if i will convert but im inna much better place

[@PreciousBloodOfJesus7777]

@@josephaggs7791 Appreciate the reply. One last question if you have time. Have you participated in the Eucharist tradition there or are there steps before doing so?

[@prestonyannotti7661]

I love the background

[@toughbiblepassages9082]

people are reading the bible and seeing that the church is not teaching what the Bible is saying.. thats why there is dechurching

[@jwebbmealy]

Around 6:00 you tell the story of the John Updike novel with the minister who loses his faith. That suddenly put in mind a book I had read many decades ago, The Mackerel Plaza by Peter De Vries. Ironically, the minister/protagonist/antihero of that book loses his faith when God appears to answer prayer!

[@jessewinn5563]

There's at LEAST as many people who are deconstructing to reconstruct into a mainline or maybe progressive Christianity as there are who deconstruct completely out of their faith. Even if its but for a season. I look forward to listening to this. I have not been at all impressed with Sean or Alisha on there comments on this issue. So much strawman going on. It comes off as both ignorant and arrogant. I look forward to this video because while Gavin is a little more conservative than me (whatever that means) he is also fair most of the time, and well researched. He rarely is guilty of reading too much in to one's reasoning or motives. I hope that is still true here.

[@TruthUnites]

let me know what you think once you watch! :)

[@jessewinn5563]

@TruthUnites I thought it was fair. I am an ex-pastor for the Churches of Christ (Restoration Movement). I now work as a counselor and attend a UMC. I would say that I've deconstructed and reconstructed many times over. I consider myself a "progressive" Christian but in the Brian Zahnd or Brad Jersak sense of the term. My experience is that most people who are leaving are doing so because of the weaknesses of whatever particular congregation they attend. For example, the mainline congregations have a tendency of having a socially disconnected faith and a country club mentality. Evangelical churches have a tendency of making everything outside of traditionally held views a salvation issue and not giving people a safe place to explore different opinions without losing their community. Catholics and Orthodox tend to have, to some degree, a sectarian faith. Truly liberal churches (those rejecting things like the core trachings of the Apostles Creed for example) lack foundation, and eventually become meaningless in any kind of objective sense. It seems that the common denominator is that this generation is pushing against the extremes. Whatever those extremes are. And when they find a different denomination they see a different wing of the same bird. But most who deconstruct, even if they end up deconverting, do so with hard work behind them and tears in their eyes.

[@richardpallotta6158]

Excellent point & well said!!

[@prestonyannotti7661]

​@jessewinn5563 This is difficult because everyone is different. I'm younger and took these tough issues on the chin and I've come out the other end holding on. I at this point in my life really seek a structured yet intellectual church. One that isn't scared of tough questions but takes God at his word and isn't shaken by a cultural vendetta

[@jessewinn5563]

@@prestonyannotti7661 I agree that it is a spectrum. My only problem when people tend to talk about these issues is that they assume the motives and work ethic of those deconstructing. Gavin did not do this as much. But many do.

[@brandonclark908]

Thank you for your video Gavin! What do you make of the second great awakening? Many Calvinists see it more negatively…

[@rexlion4510]

When one considers that a considerable portion of people who still identify as Christian are 'Christian in name only' (with no living faith in Christ), the percentage of true Christians in the US may well be less than 50% already (right now). As for church attendance, though, we should remember that church attendance does not make one a Christian. Church attendance, for all its positive aspects, is not the crux of Christianity. The crux is believing (trusting) that Jesus' propitiation on the cross 2,000 years ago was sufficient to redeem us from the penalty we deserve for our sins. IOW, a living faith in Jesus as Savior, through which God responds to spiritually regenerate the believer by the indwelling Holy Spirit, is the key element of Christianity. When the crowd were convicted in their hearts by hearing the Gospel and they asked Peter what they must do, Peter did not say "Go to church every Sunday." He said, repent and (to show the sincerity of your newfound faith) be baptized. Paul didn't write in Romans 10 that we will be saved if we attend church; he wrote, if you confess Jesus as _Lord_ and believe in your inner being that He rose from the dead, you will be saved. Romans 4 doesn't say we are made righteous by being a church member; it says God accounts us righteous through faith, apart from works.

[@2Snakes]

Doubt will always be a part of the human experience.

[@PillCozbee]

If a young believer goes to college and triages the Fall as a secondary or tertiary doctrine, or accepts it as allegory, do they come back to it, or keep it in triage?

[@dwayne1016]

Would love a video on penance. Have seen little to no Protestant treatment on this especially addressing its history.

[@JamesClark-le7hu]

I do like your new background. But I also do miss the envy I got when seeing your home library, lol.

[@steveburris6543]

'Atheism dehumanising ? Not in my experience. I was a born again Christian for 15 years. I've since learnt to worship no-one and nothing. It's very liberating, learning about the World and seeing fellow humans as all wonderful Beings (endlessly fascinating and diverse) and the the living Earth and the Cosmos. Be free , be loving, be kind. All interconnected and important. Peace😊

[@Loganva]

I think this is a great video and I agree with it a lot. I don’t see, though, how people deconverting is a problem for you as someone who professes reformed soteriology. Does that make sense or am I yapping

[@PhrenicosmicOntogeny]

It doesn't really work what reformed actually means. I don't think I understand it well enough to explain it, unfortunately. Still learning. But I know that Gavin at least believes in secondary causes. He believes people can still make choices that matter and for which they are held accountable.

[@Loganva]

@@PhrenicosmicOntogeny right but as far as I know he doesn’t believe that people can choose to accept or resist Christ. So like for a deconvert they fall away because God stops preserving them, not the other way around.

[@PhrenicosmicOntogeny]

@@Loganva Like I said, I don't know enough about it to explain his position. I'm not there myself, though I'm leaning more that way these days. I just know he would not agree with the view of the original post.

[@littleboots9800]

​@@LoganvaI'm not a Calvinist but I think they would treat it the same way as the question "why evangelise if God has ordained who will be saved and no man can thwart God's will?" They say that God ordains both the _end_ and the _means._ So if they'll be saved AND how. Then they'd say we are told in the Bible how he draws his elect to him and its through hearing the word preached, so we must keep putting across the gospel and then if it's ordained that they will be saved they will and if not they'll brush it off. Our part is not deciding "oh they've heard enough, if they're deconstructing it's because they were preordained to." Thats because maybe God preordained that they would deconstruct from what was not actually a saving faith, despite appearances, that they would see the bleakness and incoherence and then return to a 'reconstructed' true, saving faith. The means of that may be someone challenging their deconstruction and answering the doubts they had. Like I said, I'm not a Calvinist so am happy to be corrected and would be interested to hear from one on this matter too.

[@bonsaitomato8290]

“Deconstructed “ 30 years ago before “deconstructed” was a thing and today I’m happily an atheist . There is a better life outside of Christianity come join us. Don’t listen to this man, my view of humanity became more dear to me after I became an atheist because I was no longer under the curse of god and the “fall”. I no longer looked at myself as “sinful” and “dirty” as I was made to feel under the theology of Christianity. You are not dirt and nobody had to die to make you worthy of acceptance.

[@njvalueinvestor]

Bonsai, I regret your experience with faith made you feel "sinful" and "dirty". As a believer we learn God's grace cleanses us of our sin and guilt. No one taught you grace covers all sin, and removes all dirt. I pray you find peace.

[@bonsaitomato8290]

@@njvalueinvestor you are unaware of it but you just confirmed everything I said. Listen carefully , I have nothing to be forgiven for and I am not a “sinner” needing to be “covered”. You’re just not getting it are you.

[@JDM-914]

It's understandable to feel that way, but the way you feel has nothing to do with what the truth is. I want to ask you out of love to reconsider reality. Death is an unescapable truth that causes great emotional turmoil, but that does not make it any less real. Denying something because it makes you feel a certain way does not lead you to the truth. I will pray for you, and I ask anyone who reads this to do the same. God bless.

[@bonsaitomato8290]

@@JDM-914 don’t assume to tell me my own thoughts. I didn’t reject Christianity because it “didn’t make me feel good” , I rejected it based on it’s lack of evidence for its claims. I felt better about myself and the world once I was out of Christianity that much is true but it was not the reason that I left the religion and may I say, threatening me with the eventuality of death as a reason to return to that horrible religion is just pathetic.

[@JDM-914]

@@bonsaitomato8290 I'm not threatening you with death. I'm using it as a metaphor for inevitable truth. True reasoning is looking at every option and then selecting the one that requires the least faith to believe. Forgive me if I misunderstood your position. If I might ask, what is your worldview and what makes it the most plausible? God bless.

[@qazyman]

You can get mad it me, but I do think dispensationalism is a big part of this. As this doctrine has grown in the 20th century, belief has declined. It appears to me to be a selfish idea at it's core. Everyone else will be destroyed, but you will be raptured up to heaven.

[@imbecilicGenius-hn3jo]

This particuliar belief system has caused alot of problems within the church. I'm not even going to say whether its right or wrong but it should not be the focus of any christian or cause for any divide. The focus is here.

[@qazyman]

@@imbecilicGenius-hn3jo - I agree! It's a question of focus. The Church should be focused on being a servant, and not on personal salvation.

[@jacobbuxton932]

Cannot agree more!!

[@joshendley]

Everything you live for vocationally is what I want. Cultural Apologetics is what I wanna do for the rest of my life.

[@glenmanley7023]

CONQUEST OF CANAAN!!! YUSSS

[@FirstLast-rb4jv]

Truth Unites Old Earth

[@njvalueinvestor]

Beware, rust never sleeps

[@davidvernon3119]

Evil sinner here. From my perspective the current trend is progress - the fact that the numbers today are greater than all the revivals but in the opposite (right) direction. I wonder how this would be if we normalized the data for population growth? The difference might not be as great

[@EnglishMike]

Revivals aren't all they're claimed to be. They only happen in places where Christianity is the dominant religious faith and the vast majority of those who are "save" as a result were born into the faith -- i.e. raised in a Christian community and/or family. At best, these revivals brought people back to Christianity after "a season astray". And from what I have seen from recently publicized revivals, most of the people participating were already Christians anyway, and were simply getting swept up in the excitement, and they typically peter out as quickly as they start. The simple truth is that outside of some major societal upheaval -- war, mass migration, dictatorship, etc. -- over 99% of all Christians were born into a Christian community or family. Conversions from other faiths are vanishingly small in number by comparison.

[@Blaisesongs]

It’s not all about apologetics. It’s important to pray as Paul prayed - according to Ephesians 1, to be given the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of Christ. Paul received this. So did Peter. Heart knowing is from God, not simply knowing about Him from the head. This is the rock upon which is built the church against which the powers of hell cannot prevail. It is not a man; it is not an institution; it is the word of Christ revealed to the heart. Flesh and blood do not give this. It is from God.

[@OldPirate1718]

Those who aren't going to church are the 30 and unders...materialism is their god...they are unable to question the Bible or God or who Jesus was without completely falling away vs understanding the OT was a collection of stories to teach morality, and the early Hebrews trying to give credibility to their, at the time, small nation...it doesn't take away from God or Jesus

[@EnglishMike]

_"materialism is their god"_ Blaming young people for being too materialistic is way off the mark. It wasn't the young people who established the insatiable American capitalist system that is now seeking to extract every dollar possible from them by offering up countless alternative uses for their time, money, and resources. That was our generation.

[@maryt.2067]

One thing I noticed with this is young people who are doing this-don't talk to anyone that is a Christian, especially anyone who is well educated in theology. They just come out with it as no longer a believer with out having told anyone they were struggling. Parents in particular are really hurt by this.

[@EnglishMike]

How many young people discuss the issues with well-educated theologians while they were being raised as Christians? Very few, I'd wager. As for parents being hurt, that's their problem, not their child's. In most cases parents are just happy their kid goes to church with them, regardless of whether they have to be dragged there. FWIW, if a teenager comes out as an atheist online and asks about what they should tell their religious parents, I suggest they don't say anything unless they're forced to, simply because so many (conservative) Christian parents freak out about it. It's simply easier all around to play the part of a truculent teenager than confront them with the "A" word. Of course, it doesn't always have to end in tears -- many parents are more understanding and are willing to let their children explore what they believe in their own way -- but sometimes it's hard to judge what the reaction will be.

[@maryt.2067]

@@EnglishMike I am a former homeschool mom. There are many homeschooled, well educated in the faith, kids now adults that have turned away. No matter if they were in or out of church, learned or did not--they generally think its their parent's fault. There are a lot of parents out there praying and crying. I have not heard of any of them even telling their parents what they were struggling with.

[@EnglishMike]

@@maryt.2067 Darn it. I wrote a long reply but I was using a VPN that KZbin doesn't like so it just swallowed it whole. I guess I'll try to be succinct this time! Basically, if there is a pattern where homeschooled kids are afraid to talk to their parents about their religious doubts (likely because they either don't want to go through a painful discussion or they don't want to upset their very religious parents) then there's something wrong with the current religious homeschooling system. Kids need to know they're safe to discuss these things with their parents, and if they can't then it's on the parents and/or the system the parents are using. You can't blame the kids.

[@drummerhq2263]

15:12 what I’m seeing is Christians, relying on science and what can be proven to ground their faith. That is never stable and will only lead to destruction. We don’t need to understand how God created the world and sustains it, we believe by Faith. That doesn’t mean we shouldn’t study science, because I love science and one of my majors is in science, but it never answers the question of how but is an observational discipline. Again, I’m really seeing this big push for evangelical Christians to try and prove the scripture scientifically, including the death, burial and resurrection of Christ or making a case for Christ. This is not good. I think we’re going about it all wrong, our life should be the example of truth in Christ, the difference of the fruits of the spirit and more. This is what proves, even though it doesn’t need to be proven, the saving grace and current love of our Lord.

[@EnglishMike]

_"but it never answers the question of how but is an observational discipline."_ Science is much more than an observational discipline, which is why the creationist's "You weren't there" argument doesn't wash. And science answers the question of how all the time -- how thunderstorms happen, how eclipses happen, how planets are formed, and so on. All these things used to be attributed to (direct) divine causes, but today we know better.

[@drummerhq2263]

@@EnglishMike the scientific method is through observation, testing with repeatable results. This is my area of study, and it is amazing studying God’s creation. What I was referring to was abiogenesis. This is the theoretical work, postulating theories for the origins of life and matter. This is a religion, relying on Faith.

[@brendangolledge8312]

I am not in church because it seems to me that most churches would hold me to a lower moral standard than I would hold myself, or else they hold views that seem just obviously false. A large part of my refusal to be a part of church is the widespread adultery (including frivolous divorce) in our culture, and the refusal of the church to address it. I was preparing to get married a few years ago (currently legally married), and I could not pick a church that I was comfortable bringing my wife to. How can I go to a church (thereby admitting that the pastor has some kind of moral authority over me), where the pastor does not recognize frivolous divorce as a sin? It comes straight from the mouth of Jesus that you can't divorce for any which reason. So it seems to me that if you divorce and don't even try to give a reason (like no-fault divorce), then you are not Christian. Wives who get frivolous divorces (I'm focusing on women here because +70% of divorces are initiated by women) ought to be excommunicated. It seems to me that the point of being in church is to learn to love God and your neighbor better. If a person is not even trying to love his spouse, then what purpose does he have being in a church? It would be like someone bringing whiskey to an alcoholics anonymous meeting to get drunk. It is disgraceful. I'm not aware of any protestant denomination that excommunicates people who initiate no-fault divorces, so, I can't go to a protestant church. The Catholic church doesn't have divorce, but I think that's also dumb. My wife could make a false accusation against me, have me arrested, legally steal my assets, cheat on me, and block me from seeing my children, and the Catholic church would say that I can't divorce? BS! I'm not staying bound to a woman who would do that to me! Jesus gave the very obvious commandment that you don't divorce except in the case of marital unfaithfulness. I can't unilaterally keep my marriage together if my wife decides to betray me. It makes no sense to pretend that I can. The Orthodox Church is the only one that I'm aware of that has an acceptable view on divorce. However, I found in practice that they may not have be that different than the secular culture. Also, looking at church history, I can find things that don't make sense in all the churches that claim infallibility. It is a serious problem to me if I find even 1 thing in the history of the church that makes no sense if it claims infallibility, because then the claim of infallibility is 100% false, but to be a part of that church, I have to profess 100% belief in all of their doctrines (including the infallibility of these doctrines). I'm not aware of any church speaking out about usury, which is the biggest plague on this planet, so far as I can tell. The mere existence of Bitcoin has done more to combat usury in my lifetime than all the churches combined. How can I see the church as a moral pillar if the church doesn't even recognize the biggest problems in the world today? I could talk about a lot more. I guess in general, I see stupidity, arrogance, and hypocrisy in the churches. I think I can do better by myself. If I could actually see the church doing great things that weren't being done elsewhere, I probably would be a believer.

[@EnglishMike]

You're wrong to target no-fault divorces for several reasons. First, no-fault doesn't mean there is no justification. It just means that a person doesn't have to convince a judge they have a justifiable reason for divorcing their spouse, which used to be virtually impossible to do in abusive marriages, given the victim's precarious position. Calling no-fault divorces "frivolous" is just ignorant and wrong. A 2004 paper by economists Betsey Stevenson and Justin Wolvers found an 8 to 16% decrease in female suicides after states enacted no-fault divorce laws. They also noted a roughly 30% decrease in intimate partner violence among both women and men, and a 10% drop in women murdered by their partners. Erecting barriers against divorce is only going to harm more women and children trapped in abusive marriages, and if you go read Julie Roys' (an evangelical Christian) reporting on John MacArthur's ministry (which undoubtedly shares your beliefs about divorce) you will see how easily a church can pressure abuse victims into silence and fake reconciliation even as they continue to be at risk from abuse. Excommunication would just be a tool used to keep women in loveless and abusive marriages. Odds are high that many of those "no fault" divorces by women are in cases where the women have plenty of cause for divorce (cheating, abuse, etc.) and the use of the no fault process is simply the safest and best way to do it for all involved. And to cap it all off, the divorce rate is actually no higher in the US than it was when no-fault divorce was introduced by then California Governor Ronald Reagan in 1968, and has been in decline since 1980, so blaming no-fault divorce is simply wrong. If women were indeed getting divorced for frivolous reasons, the divorce rate would be much higher than it is.

[@brendangolledge8312]

@@EnglishMike "No-Fault" does mean no justification, by definition. It has always been illegal to beat the crap out of somebody. If there is a legit reason to separate, it should not be hard to demonstrate it. The main reason that sinful women do not want to have to justify their behavior is because that would mean accountability, which they hate. You threw out a whole lot stats which would take a long time to work through. I did do a quick search on female rates of suicide and the source I found showed that they peaked in 1970 (no idea why), and that the current suicide rate is higher than in 1950. I don't see how this is at all supportive of what you claimed before. I really doubt that the divorce rate is at an all time low, unless it is because so few people are married in the first place. If women were not frivolously divorcing their husbands, there would not be tens of millions of western men who have sworn off women altogether, nor would there be a large number of men that have to go overseas in order to find a wife (like myself). Women's sexual sin is so pervasive in our society that it's the norm now for children to be born into broken families, or not born at all, and many men who in theory would have liked to be married think that literally nothing (as in being alone and doing nothing) is better than the company of a woman. And your arguments in favor of frivolous divorce are about female suicide and abuse, when everyone knows that male suicide is much higher. You are using a situation that women have better than men to argue against keeping vows, and keeping intact families for children. This line of reasoning puts women on a pedestal above men, children, and God. Obviously there are bad situations sometimes, but the kind of argument you make uses a minority of cases (husbands beating the crap out of their wives) to ignore the very common problem of wives getting up and leaving for no reason. I am very sure that the culture of frivolous divorce saved the lives of thousands at the cost of ruining the lives of millions. If a person believes that he ought to be able to get divorced for no reason, then he does not believe that marriage is meant to be permanent. If he does not believe that marriage is meant to be permanent, then he does not believe in marriage at all.

[@WaterCat5]

Regarding the primary/secondary paradigm of apologetics, i think you're missing one simple idea. The very same thought processes that cause doubt in secondary issues cause doubt in primary. Your argument is essentially an emotional one and one that a skeptic will raise eyebrows at. There are no sacred cows. To encourage disagreement on some issues but not others with no justification is suspect. Your only justification sounds to me that you feel the gospel deep down, existentially, but that in no way means it is true. A fair examination would question both those doctrines held near and dear as those held more loosely.

[@user-bz2wm4ks6y]

Maybe I shouldn't post this tangent to Dr. Ortlund's wonderful thoughts about how to respond to non-believers, doubters, and strugglers. But here I go anyway. One ingredient that may contribute to the current petri dish of deconstruction is the political. Evangelicalism has reached a point where there seems to be hardly any distance between faith and politics. Please do not read this to be saying that believers ought to compromise their political convictions. And I understand that religious beliefs profoundly affect political views. What I am suggesting is that maybe believers ought to consider how off-putting it can be to bind politics too tightly to the church. I don't want to drag the positive spirit of Dr. Ortlund's remarks down into the noxious dregs of our current political mix. But I do want Christians to give thought as to how alienating political beliefs can be and whether it's worth running the risk of alienating someone earnestly seeking truth through faith.

[@EnglishMike]

_"And I understand that religious beliefs profoundly affect political views."_ It's very much the opposite, in my opinion. After decades of observation, I am fully convinced that a person's political beliefs are more fundamental than their religious beliefs -- and that goes equally for conservatives and progressives. As a progressive atheist, I have far more in common with progressive Christians than I do with conservative atheists, regardless of whether it's over economics or social issues. Trump's evangelical base don't love him because they're Christians, they love him because they're right-wing conservatives who have bought into his brand of resentment politics.

[@user-bz2wm4ks6y]

@@EnglishMike I don't know. Are you saying that people have culturally conservative inclinations and then they become Christians because Christians will confirm their political beliefs? That doesn't seem accurate. It seems to me people start as evangelical Christians and find in that environment where certainty and agreement, purity and correctness, loyalty and authority, are valued so highly, that the path to political conservatism is assured. But even if the chicken comes before the egg - that conservatism comes first followed by religion, my point remains the same: it is more welcoming if the church forgoes a public declaration of political conservatism in favor of an apolitical of worship of God.

[@user-bz2wm4ks6y]

@@EnglishMike I don't know. Are you saying that people have culturally conservative inclinations and then they become Christians because Christians confirm/affirm their political beliefs? It seems to me people start as evangelical Christians based on sincere religious convictions and, as a result of the climate in evangelical churches, they are steeped in an environment where certainty and agreement, purity and correctness, loyalty and authority, are valued so highly, that a path to political conservatism is assured. But even if the chicken comes before the egg - that conservatism comes first and then religion, my point remains the same: it is more welcoming to separate the public declaration of political conservatism from the practice of worshipping of God.

[@user-bz2wm4ks6y]

@@EnglishMikeI don't know. Are you saying that people have culturally conservative inclinations and then they become Christians because Christians confirm/affirm their political beliefs? It seems to me people start as evangelical Christians based on sincere religious convictions and, as a result of the climate in evangelical churches, they are steeped in an environment where certainty and agreement, purity and correctness, loyalty and authority, are valued so highly, that a path to political conservatism is assured. But even if the chicken comes before the egg - that conservatism comes first and then religion, my point remains the same: it is more welcoming to separate the public declaration of political conservatism from the practice of worshipping of God.

[@user-bz2wm4ks6y]

@@EnglishMike I don't know. Are you saying that people have culturally conservative inclinations and then they become Christians because Christians confirm/affirm their political beliefs? It seems to me people start as evangelical Christians based on sincere religious convictions and, as a result of the climate in evangelical churches, they land in an environment where certainty and agreement, purity and correctness, loyalty and authority, are valued so highly, that a path to political conservatism is assured. But even if the chicken comes before the egg - that conservatism comes first and then religion, my point remains the same: it is more welcoming to separate the public declaration of political conservatism from the practice of worshipping of God.

[@jmorra]

Nearly everyone I have talked to who has " deconstructed" has given me shallow reasons for why they left their faith. Even the more advanced reasons given by ex-christians on KZbin are lame. Maybe lameness and shallowness are our real problem.

[@jonathanstensberg]

To be fair, if you asked random believers why they believe, most of them will probably also give you pretty shallow reasons.

[@jmorra]

Yes. I meant that, too.

[@EnglishMike]

And if you asked random Christians as to why they believe, they will just as likely give you similarly lame and shallow answers.

[@borkdude]

What is the "basic gospel message" according to Gavin Ortlund? You have used this phrase several times in the video, without explaining what is exactly meant by it. This happens very often in videos like this. I'm only 31 minutes in so perhaps it will be explained.

[@chrisgreen1514]

Spiritual warfare is real and anyone effective in working for His Kingdom on Earth will be attacked. We are called to carry this cross and we need to be equipped. Apologetics is needed both prior and post evangelism. Too much stony ground and weeds in the largely atheist worldview of the west. Alas, most people don’t believe in Satan or demons or hell anymore. If you fall in any battle or even deconstruct just turn to your saviour Jesus again. May God bless you and keep you safe.

[@EnglishMike]

Apologetics is just preaching to the converted -- helping other Christians feel more secure in their own faith. I guess it's also good for generating content for apologist and counter-apologist channels on KZbin, but I don't think that counts as effective evangelism, given that there's no evidence the apologists are any more successful than the counter-apologists in winning people to their side. And yeah, the doctrine of Hell (especially eternal conscious torment) will continue to be an Achilles heel for Christianity when it comes to losing believers. It's a childish mythology that has no place in the world today. No wonder there are so many Christian universalists today. That makes much more sense for a God who is claimed to be all-loving and perfectly just.

[@chrisgreen1514]

Hi Mike, please note that apologetics is not the same as evangelism. If you don’t believe in hell, demons or Satanic forces then presumably you will not believe in heaven, angels etc either? Nor miracles for that matter? When I was a child we had “pic and mix” sweets shops, you just take the bits you like and ignore the rest…

[@jasonpoole2093]

This sounds flippant, but I don’t intend it to be: Jesus stated, unequivocally that the gate is narrow, and that few will enter. What we see in America is a continuation of the decline of what we term as Christendom in the Western world. Yes, I pray for revival also, but I know that we are experiencing exactly what has been foretold.

[@MarkWCorbett1]

I thank God that you, Gavin, are planning to do a study on annihilationism in 2025. I'm praying for you and for this upcoming study. If you want to discuss it at any point, I'm a pastor who is also a member of the Rethinking Hell ministry team. You have helped me understand issues related to Eastern Orthodoxy, maybe I can help you with issues related to hell? In the meantime, if anyone wants a 10-minute overview of the biblical case for annihilationism, you may see this: kzbin.info/www/bejne/r4vTm6ZtadqEZtU

[@EnglishMike]

While I agree that annihilation is infinitely better than eternal conscious torment, it's still infinitely worse than any form of universalism. How is billions of non-Christians being annihilated simply for being born into the wrong faith justifiable by an all-loving, perfectly just God? (I say "simply" because if you're not born into a Christian family or community, the odds of you becoming a Christian before you die are vanishingly small. The act of being raised in a non-Christian community is enough to ensure than over 99% of all such people remain outside of Christianity).

[@BeccaYoley]

​​@@EnglishMike Right. When it comes down to it, people can't decide to be convinced of something or not, either belief arises naturally, or it does not. So does it make sense to punish someone for their beliefs? Furthermore, why would the creator inflict 1% of people with hallucinatory/ delusional disorders in which they are unable to even decipher what's real and what is fake, if he plans on punishing people for incorrect belief? It feels a bit like people want there to be a cool people's club for those who conform to a set of beliefs, and there's some disagreement on to what extent noncompliance ought to be punished. Many of them are generally finding eternal t o r t u r e to be going over the top (as they well should!) I do find annihilists to be far more tolerable though.

[@ready1fire1aim1]

Someday religious dogmatic people will read the Bible in a non-contradictory manner. That will be the day.

[@EnglishMike]

Never going to happen.

[@PreciousBloodOfJesus7777]

Hi Gavin. I'm Baptist but seriously considering EO. I want that connection to ancient church history and the Eucharist. My main issues are one, Jesus specifically said call no man father but your Father in heaven. Why would he say this if people should do this out of tradition? Second, apostle Paul seemed to advocate giving away wealth freely and directly to the poor, yet the EO church has land and wealth valued at 700 billion so isn't this a contradiction to apostolic teachings and tradition? Third, I've seen you debate the Orthodox father about icons and i agree with you about it. Question is, why do they depict Jesus with long hair when Corinthians 11:14 says it's shameful for a man to have long hair?

[@matthewbroderick6287]

PreciousBloodofJesus, I am so grateful to the Holy Spirit for keeping me in the Catholic Church that Jesus Christ established on Peter the rock, way before the new testament was ever written! As far as "call no man Father ", Jesus Christ Himself affirms Abraham as FATHER, " Father Abraham, have pity on me". Paul says Abraham is the Father of us all in Romans. Paul calls himself our FATHER In the faith, and Jesus Christ is promised the throne of David His FATHER! Jesus Christ our Great and Kind God and Savior, meant to call no one FATHER in terms of calling no one other than God, the Author of everything! Peace always in Jesus Christ our Great and Kind God and Savior, He whose Flesh is true food and Blood true drink!!

[@boatcaptain6288]

You should be extremely careful about EO because of their veneration of saints. Veneration becomes idolatry when you pray to them often, you end up seeking their aid and relying on them for guidance and help in life: you put your trust, or faith, in them instead of God. Oh sure, people say "oh no, it's really trusting God because God works through them" but that's just sophistry, you're really still leaning on the saint as your help and god instead of the Lord.

[@PreciousBloodOfJesus7777]

@@matthewbroderick6287 I grew up catholic. The summer camp I attended for many years was shut down for widespread (you know what) allegations. I remember they always encouraged us to swim naked. They've also paid literally billions in settlements.I'm glad you have a connection to God but personally I can't to RC.

[@matthewbroderick6287]

@boatcaptain6288 as a Catholic Christian, You bear false witness, as many in the early Church sought the mediation and intercession of mere human beings like Peter and Paul and their prayers and shadow and handkerchiefs! Indeed, we are God's coworkers, Especially the Mother of God, she who moved her Son and Lord to perform His public miracle, even though it was not yet His hour, touched by His Mother's compassion for the wedding couple, as the prayers of a righteous person have great power in it's effects! You are in my prayers as you journey toward Truth! Peace always in Jesus Christ our Great and Kind God and Savior, He whose Flesh is true food and Blood true!

[@matthewbroderick6287]

@PreciousBloodOfJesus7777 so, you left the Church that Jesus Christ established on Peter the rock, way before the new testament was ever written, not for it's teachings, but for the actions of some who didn't practice it's teachings and abused their authority?🤔 I could never leave the Church that Jesus Christ established on Peter the rock. The orthodox Church that came much later, has no way to settle disputes and teaches error regarding the Mother of God! Wishing you all the best on your journey! God's grace and peace to you always in Jesus Christ our Great and Kind God and Savior, He whose Flesh is true food and Blood true drink!!

[@christiancampbell2460]

Anyone who deconstructs from Jesus clearly doesn’t know the Church Clap

[@majmage]

Prayer/hope don't lead to revival. In fact that's exactly why people abandon religion and stay away: there isn't good reason to believe a god exists! If we had a good reason, would anyone bother with prayer? No, they'd just _present the good reasons for believing a god exists!_ That would be that. So videos like this are (rather ironically) _the reason_ for people abandoning religion!

[@majmage]

The "dehumanizing" point is simply nonsense. Do you value well-being? I do. How do I pursue well-being best? Well what improves my well-being? The device I'm writing this on, the coffee mug and its delicious coffee near me, the air conditioning and drywall around me protecting me from what would be a fairly uncomfortable humid 83F heat. Did I make any of those things? No. Others did. So my well-being rests on their well-being. It rests on valuing those people because my well-being would be _impossible_ without them. And that's the argument completely without empathy. With empathy (which the majority of humans just naturally have, as do I), you're going to care about humans anyway. So this idea that we dehumanize people is simply a falsehood. It simply suggests the theist has never really thought through the problems without the god crutch holding things up, and so the first probing step they make into that realm ends up being a catastrophe -- a really bad argument.

[@majmage]

I agree that theists need to start with a foundation. The problem is there's no foundation for belief in a god, which is the very first thing one would need to prove. After all, even if we take the gospels' authors at their word that they witnessed Jesus do miracles, *they're all human-fakeable "miracles"!* Faith-healing, misdirection (feeding the multitudes), "walking on water", even impersonating the dead. These are all things humans throughout history have used to trick other humans. So the idea that a god showed up and somehow didn't know that and did all those human-fakeable things? That's ridiculous. Even if we trust that the authors wrote what they actually believed was true (and we don't really have a great reason to believe that). So yeah, you *need* to start with the foundation. Provide evidence proving a god exists, or that Jesus actually did any of the things the gospels say, and somehow prove that the authors weren't legitimately fooled. I really don't think you can do that.

[@whelperw]

As an atheist, I would say this: Your position on deconstruction seems to be a little bit controversial. You said, that you need to be kind to people who have doubts and listen to them, but you ended up doing is an opposite. If doubter invoices concern, spread gospels. They have problems with staff about Jesus? It's just irrelevant. Problems with doctrines? Everyone has, we believe in Jesus anyway! Trauma from Christianity? *Their* Christianity was bad, *my* Gospel is better. In the end, this video wasn't so much about deconstruction, rather it's 50 minutes long video about "spread Gospel, because it's SO GOOD and defend faith, because apologetics" And I despise this form of christian kindness, you don't care what other ape-man believe, you care about your Gospel and you want to impose your ape-man belief into his brain. That isn't *care*, this is ideological warfare.

[@OldPirate1718]

The stories in the Bible, in the OT (about rape, incest, slavery, genocide, Noah, Job, Adam and Eve, Lot, Moses) are never answered by Church leaders...they typically give some standard rhetoric, canned answer, scrunchy face, or dismissive judgement...we didn't write the Bible--the early Church picked and chose--we weren't there when the original authors of whichever documents were used to go into the Bible wrote what they wrote...

[@npuritan6769]

You mentioned a lot of things, and this comment will by no means change your mind, but I hope it encourages you to look into it. In terms of rape and incest I'm guessing you are referring to the story of Lot, the Bible does record all these events happening, but that does not mean it gives an endorsement of these practices. For the other parts you mentioned, I would recommend looking into Inspiring Philosophy. He's a Christian apologetics channel that does a pretty good job of covering many of the more challenging portions of the Old Testament. Good luck in your search for answers.

[@EnglishMike]

​@@npuritan6769 Rape as the results of the spoils of war, in wars that were commanded by God for the Israelites to wage. Plausible sounding answers give by apologists rarely satisfy anyone outside of those, like yourself, who are committed Christians.

[@Vaughndaleoulaw]

I deconstructed to Catholicism.

[@ntlearning]

Someone just below your comment said the opposite.

[@braydenmiller8021]

I left Christianity two years ago because the cognitive dissonance that was required for me to maintain my faith became unbearable. As a Christian apologist, the evidence for Christianity truly began to backfire on me. All I care about is truth. Even though leaving the faith was the hardest, most isolating thing I’ve ever done, not having to deal with that psychological conflict every day has been deeply healing. I’m not saying leaving the faith is what’s best for everyone, but it’s certainly what’s best for many people.

[@brando3342]

Is it possible the standard that you set for yourself was beyond reasonable, and that's why none of the evidence seemed to meet it?

[@Dram1984]

It’s funny because I could write the same thing in reverse and it would be my story.

[@ninjason57]

Interesting experience. I had a similar story except as I kept researching the evidence for Christianity it actually strengthened my faith. The more evidence I discovered the more I was convinced it was true. I really believe that if a person is seeking the truth of this universe with the pure heart God will lead them to Jesus.

[@4jgarner]

What was the evidence that lead you to this conclusion?

[@richardpallotta6158]

Here with the psychological truth of this man's post lives in many souls and it's not simply the Parable of the Sower in some kind of commentary...however, where else do we find faith,hope,love,mercy,etc. for REAL in the world?

[@robharrell-xd2pi]

Deconstruction is just another name for apostasy and godlessness. These have always been around and of course Hebrews addresses it.

[@zeropointenergy1574]

Truth.

[@warrenroby6907]

Simplistic answer. Deconstruction is diverse as Gavin notes and the good versions are a part of a revival going on. Creedal advance is taking place.

[@EnglishMike]

Uncharitable assumptions don't help anyone. I don't think Jesus was the one washing his hands of others in the Bible.

[@RoyceVanBlaricome]

"Lots of people come to Christ by reading 'Lord of the Rings'." Whaaaat??!! What happened to John 6:44-45 and Romans 1:16? Smh And you're a "Pastor"? I know, I know. That probably wasn't "loving" enough. Smh

[@EnglishMike]

Yeah, it sounds like one of those myths that grew in the telling.

[@arctictruck10]

@49:28 it's funny you say that when God allows slavery in the bible and doesn't denounce it, but being an atheists is dehumanizing 😆

[@joehernandez3231]

The comment made was that atheISM is dehumanizing; i.e. the worldview, not the people who subscribe to that worldview.

[@EnglishMike]

@@joehernandez3231 It really isn't, though, either way. You can find lots of Christians who are just as terrified of going to Hell or committing the unforgivable sin (usually sex related of course), or simply scared of losing their faith, as you seem to believe atheists are of living a nihilistic existence. The truth is that most of us (Christians and atheists alike) are simply too busy getting on their our lives to be worried about existential angst, especially those who are most struggling to keep their lives together and the lives of their families.

[@leemorrison9006]

Annihilationism: When Gavin said he's nervous about studying it, my guess is that's because he's aware there's a strong biblical case for it. The deconstruction-related point I'd like to make: Even if you disagree with annihilationism, you should always, IMHO, mention it to anyone who is assessing Christianity! Otherwise, you're letting them assume being a Christian requires accepting the eternal-suffering view of hell -- a stumbling block for many people, and a needless one. One outstanding proponent of annihilationism is Chris Date (a biblical inerrantist) of Rethinking Hell. Thank you, Gavin, for another very helpful and heartening talk!

[@warrenroby6907]

Good point. Gavin should carefully consider Ultimate Reconciliation as well.

[@EnglishMike]

Annihilationism is stuck in the middle -- infinitely better than eternal conscious torment, but still infinitely worse than any form universal salvation. The billions of normal people who weren't Christians may not be suffering in Hell for eternity but they're also missing out on an eternity of blissful paradise in Heaven and for what reason -- leading exactly the same lives as normal Christians other than (through not fault of their own) being born and raised in the "wrong" faith?

[@SamuelFistonich]

Hi Gavin, thanks so much for your channel - your videos have been very helpful to me. I heard you mention that you plan on doing a video on universalism at some point, and I just want to say I'm excited for that one! Honestly, the whole concept of hell has been confusing to me recently and I'm not really finding many satisfactory explanations on any side of the issue.. one scholar I usually find very helpful is NT Wright, however so far on this topic I've found that he makes some good points but also some confusing ones (not sure how familiar you are with his work).

[@warrenroby6907]

NT Wright has helped me greatly. As for Universalism, or Ultimate Reconciliation as I prefer to call it, has rekindled my faith. Robin Parry and Peter Hiett are the people who helped me with this along with several KZbin channels.

[@2Snakes]

@@warrenroby6907 You should read the bible cover-to-cover.

[@warrenroby6907]

@@2Snakes Indeed I have and Ultimate Reconciliation is what it teaches. The doctrine of "hell" is a conflation of many passages that falls apart upon examination. God's good purposes for the entire created order will be accomplished.

[@alexandrethebault2637]

Incredibly uplifting as usual. Always deep and heart-warming. Keep it up brother Gavin. Love from France :-)

[@mamafortuin]

The deconstruction/ex-vangelical phenomenon we are witnessing is a direct result of the Scholasticism and Enlightenment movements of modernity. The use of the faculty of reason was/is enshrined as the ultimate mode of theologizing. It denies two things: 1) human reason is fallible and 2) the importance of the physical aspect of human nature to discern spiritual realities. We aren’t just brains on sticks! Christianity originated in the East and its ancient modes of worship are holistic. We aren’t spirits with bodies. Human nature consists of both spirit AND body. The modern stark, barren and sterile places of worship don’t and can’t speak to the reality that, “we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses.” The Lord, His angels and the host of Heaven are instead relegated to the “second storey” of the Kingdom of God way off in the distance. They are so far away that the heavenly reality inevitably becomes non-existant to the modern mind. The engagement of the body in Orthodox worship through the senses- sight, smell, taste, touch, hearing-purifies the heart, mind and spirit so that one can discern the invisible reality which is represented in the iconography, candles, incense and other symbols found in Orthodox temples and praxis. All I can say is, “Come, taste and see that the Lord is good!” It is Lent for the Orthodox Church so now is a wonderful time to visit an Orthodox parish to experience its sublime, transcendant and majestic beauty and come face to face with the Living God in a way you never have before. 🙏❤️☦️⛪️

[@mbts500]

This video is top shelf

[@HearGodsWord]

Its a good point to make that Christians who deconstruct and reconstruct back into Christians.

[@lawrencecastle2777]

I know that Jesus won't let go of us but Gavin carries my faith 🤣

[@Jimmy-bw2qo]

I live in the so-called Bible Belt of America and while the area is still at least more nominally Christian than most other parts of the country, I am seeing more and more people around me deconstruct from their faith and I think one of the main reasons is that churches are doing an abysmal job of teaching the core doctrines of the Christianity. Many of these "deconstructed Christians," or whatever you want to call them, don't even know what it is they're walking away from, despite being raised in church. They vaguely remember a handful of simplified Bible stories they heard in children's church (those awful "child-friendly" versions biblical narratives that seem almost deliberately designed to make the stories seem stupid and childish.) They know Christianity teaches that there is this all-powerful being called "God" and that this "God" fellow somehow had a Son named "Jesus" who was born of a virgin, was crucified and rose from the dead. And they know that Christians want everyone to believe in Jesus and to do good works (though they don't know what that means) so that they can go some place called Heaven after they die. Some may have even heard of an entity called "The Holy Spirit" but they have no idea what it is. Beyond this, they know absolutely nothing about Christianity. I've known multiple highly educated, very well-read people, raised in churches, who genuinely believed that Christianity came into existence when the King James Bible was published in 1611 and at least one of them seemed to think that the entire Bible was written by King James himself! The worst part is, if you try to correct one of their many, many misconceptions about Christianity, they'll assume you're just spinning some web of mental gymnastics to defend your beliefs. No matter how clearly the truth is taught in Scripture and church history, they'll assume it's just something a Christian apologist came up with a few minutes ago because they never heard it in all their years in church. That sort of arrogant ignorance is extremely common where I live, among the religious and irreligious alike. This horrific lack of theological education appears to be a problem across all denominations. The preachers tend to focus on teaching practical lessons that they believe people will be able to apply in their everyday lives and they do this to the exclusion of almost everything else. They seem to assume that everyone already knows the basics of the faith from Sunday school, Bible study groups or their family. They don't even seem to consider that most people do not attend Sunday school or Bible study groups and that many people come from families that won't take the time to teach them. Church goers themselves are probably just as much to blame as the preachers as there is a strong anti-intellectual streak among them. Many seem to think any discussion of history, philosophy, language and even theology itself is a waste of time for everyone except academics, whom they view with suspicion (to be fair, suspicion of academics isn't entirely unwarranted.) Some are even suspicious of seminaries and anyone who graduates from a seminary, preferring instead that aspiring preachers only learn from other preachers at their church, like a master and apprentice. Preachers see all of this and I guess think they have to give the people what they want. "The customer is always right!" and all that. Wow, I didn't mean to spend so much time writing this huge wall of text. Sorry about that, I guess really needed to vent lol.

[@Yj-Fj]

True dat

[@toddvoss52]

Great video and God bless for this one. I read A Grief Observed several years ago and was impressed with its honesty- it was hard for him to just repeat to himself his points from The Problem of Pain. I also point out that Mother Teresa no longer felt the presence of God in the same way as she had for the last decades of her life .

[@matthewkloskowski6991]

Does anyone recommend books on recovering from legalism or fundamentalism?

[@mamafortuin]

I highly recommend this video which explains the difference between the juridical view vs the therapeutic view of salvation. The Kingdom of Heaven is not a courtroom with an angry, wrathful judge but a hospital with a loving and merciful Physician. The Orthodox View of Salvation by Steve Robinson: kzbin.info/www/bejne/jaDWmKqCmtCapJosi=X5Vl8Isb3OCzETSS

[@jasonshaw2065]

One of your best videos thank you so much for your heart and mission. On your point about the apologetic power of testimony, see also Plantiga's Warranted Belief. Reasons for faith can be experiential and still be valid, substantive, and warranted, even without being rationally comprehensive. Cheers!

[@RobSed55]

Praying to remind God of His promise, to pour out His Spirit on all flesh.

[@kylesavage879]

Hi Gavin, great stuff! Side note - I think I have a decent video topic idea for you to cover. How can people manage their family relationships among religious families who have decided that their different beliefs prevent them from having full spiritual fellowship?