A New Era Of Apologetics, Ecumenism, and Arguments for Faith (Gavin Ortlund)

[@pintswithaquinas]

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[@billmartin3561]

I love Gavin, but he is one of the most popular (and formidable) anti-Catholic KZbinrs. He is constantly creating videos on Catholic “eccretions”. Does he think Catholics that believe all Catholic doctrine and die in a state of grace are saved? He avoids answering this. If so, he needs to stop with the anti-Catholic videos and follow his channel name and focus on truth that unites. All Christians need to focus on evangelizing non-believers, not tearing other denominations down.

[@vigilantezack]

@@billmartin3561 What is "die in a state of grace" and who knows if that's how someone dies in the first place? Scripture doesn't say anything about Christians needing to die in a state of grace. I've never heard Gavin say RC Christians aren't saved or can't be saved, and I've never heard him, certainly, toss out the entire group by association as not saved. Obviously, it's not our job to declare who we think is saved or not, all we can do is point out the dangers of various doctrines and even false gospels and idols. He is not "anti-Catholic", as you say. Don't mistake theological discussion and pointing out problems to be "anti", this is modernist victim-mind nonsense. Not having the same ideas and arguments and theology doesn't mean you are "anti" the other person. "I disagree with you" and "I'm against and anti-you" are very different things.

[@salomondahlberg6432]

I’m protestant and Pints with Aquinas is my favorite catholic youtube channel. Love these ecumenical-ish conversations. The traditions need to talk, interact and debate more, with conviction, but in the spirit of love and respect. It will result in unity, if not in thought and conviction, at least in love and the Holy Spirit. Those who truly have the mindset of “nothing in my hands I bring, only to the cross I cling” have a unity in The Spirit. Let us let that unity manifest in love for those who share it and for unity in truth. With all humility, your brother in Christ

[@mj_byrd]

Same here and I fully agree with this comment

[@joshuareeves5103]

AMEN

[@ThornyCrown-l5d]

Do you think any of the apostles would go around and have lunch with those who they violently disagreed with on the faith? The differences between Protestants and Catholics amount to two different gospels altogether, and therefore, both cannot be true. As long as that's made perfectly clear at the outset, then go ahead and have your ecumenical talks. But remember, Boniface VIII said "it is altogether necessary for salvation that every human creature be subject to the Roman Pontiff" (in his "Unam Sanctam"), which means people like me who reject the papacy, and Mr. Ortland, are going to hell.

[@BM-si2ei]

@@ThornyCrown-l5d Praise the God who saved me that Boniface and his erroneous thoughts have no bearing on the salvation Christ has so graciously granted me.

[@joshuareeves5103]

@@ThornyCrown-l5d What an unfortunate view. I'm sorry to say it breaks with historic Protestantism. Not sure what tradition you are part of but you are not in alignment with the fathers of your tradition. (Unless you are anabaptist, then maybe fair enough). Luther, Calvin, Zwingli, etc. none of these condemned the Roman Church to hell as you have. Either you have a overly specific view of the gospel or your misunderstand Catholic Beliefs (and I say this as a protestant myself).

[@iradflores8276]

Brothers, this was so touching and uplifting to see amicable protestant/Catholic discussions that transcend our differences and model what healthy, loving, and Christ-like conversation is like.

[@ora_et_labora1095]

This is the kind of Christianity that will change the world. The city is so much stronger when we’re united.

[@mannythegrandfather2291]

I'm a simple man. I see Gavin, I click

[@gabrielrivera8822]

Facts

[@dylanschweitzer18]

Amen brother. Gavin is a gem

[@MorsGloriaque]

So real

[@MOSESCHISUNKA]

Same...

[@iamdigory]

I see Gavin and Matt I click twice

[@jonathanstensberg]

Arguments are about removing “stumbling blocks” to belief. They usually don’t move someone; rather, they clear the path for future movement.

[@charitybrook6279]

Ah great nugget there!! Hope Gavin happens upon this to add to his considerations on this matter of argumentation. He has helped me greatly!!

[@thadofalltrades]

I've always had the mentality that I'm not going to change the mind of the person I'm engaging, it's the people watching I'm aiming for.

[@BobbyBobBob-d5l]

ST. POPE JOHN PAUL II: “When brothers and sisters who are not in perfect communion with one another come together to pray... their prayer is the soul of the whole ecumenical movement. If Christians, despite their divisions, can grow evermore united in common prayer around Christ, they will grow in the awareness of how little divides them in comparison to what unites them.” “It is absolutely clear that ecumenism, the movement promoting Christian unity, is not just some sort of “appendix” which is added to the Church’s traditional activity. Rather, ecumenism is an organic part of her life and work, and consequently must pervade all that she is and does.” Ut Unum Sint, May 25, 1995

[@wonderingpilgrim]

@@BobbyBobBob-d5l Love this! Thank you.

[@sarahabraham8743]

Beautiful

[@snugswashere6504]

I am becoming Catholic tomorrow. I just wanted to share that.

[@javierfrias2423]

Welcome home

[@alisterrebelo9013]

Welcome home! All saint day, very nice. ✝️

[@GinnyShilliday]

@@snugswashere6504 God bless you!

[@laurabrown3776]

Welcome home love!

[@laurabrown3776]

Keep sharing that beautiful news!

[@Nick-w9z]

As always, love this conversation. I'm really liking Gavin the more I listen to him. Good hearted dude.

[@MetalThrashinDad]

100% agree he’s well read well prepared and good spirited in the discussion realm. Hes got the demeanor I wish all Protestants had when engaging discussions and debates on faith.

[@KatyaK93]

Non denominational here, and I have been greatly encouraged and inspired by this dialog!

[@parxxcapital]

These 2 together kinda give me Tolkien, Lewis vibes but for our generation. Love to see it.

[@RedRoosterRoman]

Except Lewis was basically an "anglo-catholic" and didn't run a public "ministry" where every second piece of content is a criticism or attempt to refute the Catholic Church.... 🤔😅🤷‍♂️

[@xprimox]

Huge reach 😅😅 hahahaha

[@erinhenninger341]

And Matt is Lewis?

[@RedRoosterRoman]

@@erinhenninger341 Matt is Roman Catholic like Tolkien? Why would he be Lewis? But I don't think the analogy really fits either way

[@Southernstereotype]

@@RedRoosterRoman Refuting Catholic abuse, heresy, and wicked behavior while holding firm that she is a church with the same ecumenical claim as any other denomination is a ministry. No need for parentheses.

[@lindam5512]

Please don't stop the arguments for God, Christ, the reliability of the Bible and faith! Apologetics is the path that led me to faith and was absolutely needed, for me. It "proved" to me that belief in God is reasonable and probable and intelligent people can indeed believe without checking their brains at the door of the church. It cleared away the mental blocks and gave me intellectual permission to consider Christianity. For those who don't need this - celebrate that gift. But for the 10% or so of us who need apologetics, keep it up!

[@elliot6463]

Gavin Ortlund is such a cool guy. That debate between him and Trent Horn really helped me to see both sides of the Sola Scriptura debate fairly.

[@Summer-sc1ph]

1:58:20 "when we find our identity more in what we are against than what we are for" "when our identity is negative". Such good points!

[@thadofalltrades]

I've been changing this in my own head. Acknowledging I'm first a Christian, saved by grace, who loves God with all my heart, mind, and soul.

[@ThePostmillennial]

I really appreciate Gavin. He’s helped me immensely.

[@angelvalentinmojica6967]

Gavin ortlund is my favorite protestant apologist. As a Catholic he makes it easier to listen his point of view without me feeling being attacked.

[@Willis_S]

Spot on.

[@TheHaldermans]

Thanks brothers - love both of your work and especially when you can have a long form dialogue like this! I really appreciated the discussions about putting intentional limits on technology and also just saying no to protect sabbath time/family time. One of my favorite pieces of advice was to this effect: “you are going to disappoint some people - just make sure it’s the right people”. As a husband and a father, it should be rare that I disappoint my wife or children

[@xblakelfoglex]

They struck a cord here numerous times that I have been feeling, that we are in a day and age where we dehumanize others. Whether it's politics, religion, or anything else, it really seems like anyone who is opposed to us is our enemy. They are not a fellow creation of God, but an object to receive our hatred. We, especially as Christians, need to learn how to treat others with respect and not as talking points.

[@rosiegirl2485]

I totally agree with you! 😊

[@pedroguimaraes6094]

Great discussion! I really appreciate you sharing this moment with us.

[@AndreaWhoGoesByAndrea]

Oh my goodness, Dr. Ortlund discovering yard work is the most wholesome and hilarious thing ever! 😂 I love it!

[@joshuareeves5103]

You guys are my 2 favorite youtubers! Thanks for doing this. Was so encouraged to listen to this and to see such love and friendship between a Catholic and a Baptist. Praying for the unity of the church.

[@SevereFamine]

The office of Pope is the principle of unity in the Christian church. Disunity stems from a rejection of papal authority. Praying for unity in the church as well.

[@joshuareeves5103]

@@SevereFamineIf by "principle of unity" you are suggesting it is necessary for unity, I would disagree that this is necessary. Maybe prudential I could grant but not necessary. I point to the eastern church as an example of this. They have different patriarchs with no pope at top and they are in fellowship with one another. I pray there could be a way for us all to be back in fellowship yet retain our general traditions. I am fine with there being distinctions of convictions within the body but I wish we could recognize how we agree on the essentials and are all under the headship of Christ.

[@SevereFamine]

@@joshuareeves5103 When did the divisions happen in Christianity? It has only happened when there have been rebellions against authority. You cannot have true unity unless you are under the same authority. The Catholic Church has many traditions (23 rites) in union with each other so there’s a true diversity there that doesn’t mean accepting or turning a blind eye to heresy or serious error. God bless.

[@joshuareeves5103]

@@SevereFamine Hey brother. From my perspective, Catholicism has drawn the line in areas where it shouldn't have and hasn't where it should have. You may think Protestantism was all about getting away from authority, but I think this misses the mark. Protestants wanted to remain in the catholic church, just sought reform. Catholics decided certain doctrines were essential which I don't think ought to have been essential. For example, I know of Catholic Priests that teach that Homosexual acts are okay. It seems odd to me to not divide on this basis regarding morality and something actually discussed in Scripture, and yet to choose to divide on whether Mary was assumed to heaven or immaculately conceived seems like lines we shouldn't divide on. Anathema attached to icons and bodily assumption seems counter to what Paul and Peter would have attached anathemas to.

[@justinhurley7337]

You two personified what you were talking about, two people providing a safe space to be open and ask questions and be healthy. So glad it was that and not a debate. Keep up the good work!

[@alecfoster448]

Matt is spot on about "living your life until something stops working" and only then does someone accept new arguments.

[@charitybrook6279]

That was a Goliath of a drop of wisdom and I doubt he even knows how mighty that speck of truth really is. So helpful for myself to hear someone articulate truth like that.

[@alecfoster448]

@ Father Stephen De Young talks about a similar phenomenon on the Lord of Spirits Podcast. Couldn't point to an episode but check it out if you are interested!

[@charitybrook6279]

@@alecfoster448 thanks!

[@jamesrriter]

Love the section on Detaching from the Internet, I've practiced the time barrier. I also love Gavin Ortland's idea of having a physical barrier of rooms he won't take his phone into. I'm definitely adding that. I'm with Matt I disabled the internet browser! (go into settings, safari settings, all only these websites, then deselect all...combine this with deleting all other internet apps and unhealthy apps, turn off the app store, lock down screentime and give password to trusted friend) It's been a game changer!

[@Valen_Crusader]

First time being exposed to Gavin. He’s really cool! Will definitely be checking him out more.

[@geomicpri]

One could totally binge watch his channel. He’s really full of interesting content.

[@merrygrammarian1591]

Such an uplifting conversation. Thank you both for taking the time to do that! Truly was a blessing to listen to.

[@mj_byrd]

Gavin has such a pastoral heart and way of communicating, while being thorough and intelligent.

[@HallowMas-m3s]

Gavin has an icy heart of stone and a voice that sounds like a snake in a tree.

[@charitybrook6279]

That is quite the accusation... I will deem this slander unless you come with proof. And since you do not see the man's heart, I see not how you can come with such evidence. ​ @HallowMas-m3s

[@cooperthatguy1271]

@@HallowMas-m3syou clearly do not know the fruits of the Holy Spirit.

[@brendanlove9739]

@@HallowMas-m3s I think you missed the point of the entire conversation they had at the beginning of the video

[@fnmolina]

@@HallowMas-m3s what a sad person you must be

[@reflectiveFrankC]

I am 75 and gone through lots of stages and experiences. I've faced anxiety, depression, various crosses. It all has had purpose in my life and made me who I am. Seeing God's hands on in all my life is my proof of God for me. I learned a principle I keep going back to and grow from is, all my responses to life can be reduced to fear and love, and fear is not real. When I seriously look at my fears they are generally future focused and a projectionn of a worst case scenario. I also automatically start to put up protective defences that wall me off and separate me. It is in a way what sin is /missing the target is about. Love is a decision is the otherway to observe and place experiences.the love path generally requires being conscious enough to fear that I can consciously over ride the automatic fear response and start looking for a proactive love response. That sounds complicated. Prayer is simpler, a kind or letting go and letting God. An example. I am noticing fear is affecting me and I need a better choice than fight, flight, freeze or fawn which generally leaves walls. Show me from your life how you would handle this and help me follow. Fear is generally connected to my crosses. This may seem over simplified but start looking at scriptures in this light it is not about becoming robotic but more conscious of Gods presence with me. My deepest experiences are being moments, not doing moments. In your case probably when in discussion and you connect and time disappeared but you know God was close in this experience.

[@adamguy33]

Thanks for your comment

[@greypilgrim9967]

I think Gavin touched on some important points in the beginning. Much of the world is becoming more estranged from God and therefore each other

[@TheScotro]

The entire “Internet vs. Reality” segment, you can really tell Gavin has been camping out in Digital Liturgies. Such a good book. It’s beginning to change my life.

[@NotablySped]

Gonna be honest, I've always thought Gavin is a stronger apologist than James White. I don't understand why White is considered big leagues, and Ortland articulates a lot better, even if I disagree with his theology

[@mitchellscott1843]

@@NotablySped Have had very similar thoughts about these two. If I'm a Protestant wanting to send our A Team to some debate Gavin is on the list whereas James not so much

[@scotthartsfield5786]

White has been doing this A LONG time, while Gavin is still relatively new on the scene. As such, I think White comes across as a little jaded and impatient with a lot of topics. I speculate this comes from 30 years of dealing with the same issues time and again.

[@hettinga359]

@@scotthartsfield5786 I agree. He’s much better in the realm of Islam. He has loads of patience and charity in his interactions with Muslims and has done some great work dialoguing with them.

[@unexpectedTrajectory]

Gavin in this video mentions starting his channel four years ago. James White has been at it more like 40. I look forward to Gavin gaining more traction, growing, and being a greater influence. I'm thankful for both, though I've been finding myself more divergent from White over the last few years, even though we are both 1689ers, while Gavin isn't.

[@SampleText-sb4kh]

I want to start loving my brothers in Christ, regardless of personal convictions. Truth unites us all.

[@alisterrebelo9013]

Matt, as an ex-atheist to Catholic, what you need to understand about the angst from certain segment of JP supporters (like me) is not that he isn't Catholic. The frustration comes from folks like me using JP's logic to come to the realisation that God exists, while he uses his logic to skirt around even contemplating the hypothetical that God exists. I recall JP's logic that tipped me over. JP once asked, somewhat rhetorically, while discussing archetypes, paraphrased poorly, "If an archetype is valid across these few dimensions, how true must that archetype be if it is valid along those and a whole multitude of other dimensions?" I applied that reasoning to Jesus. If Jesus is the archetype of the perfect man (Uber mensch as JP would say), and if emulating His life and approach to life's misery was true back then, is true now, for men and women, across cultures, appeals to people when applied to art and movies etc. and many other such dimensions. Then how true must Jesus and His preaching be? Well to my mind, it must be true literally. No other single person fits quite as well as an archetype of the perfect man, by a LONG shot. Not Muhammed, not Buddha, not Joseph Smith, not Charles Taze Russell, not a single patriarch or prophet of the Old Testament and not a single pagan deity. That JP cannot bring himself to accept that his own logic leads to the literal truth of Jesus is what frustrates folks that returned to Christ like me.

[@z3rocodes]

He's a classical liberal. Liberals are Nihilists. Jung is just repackaged Nihilism masquerading as spirituality and philosophy. He can't allow himself to see God because it would require submission. Spirit of the ages.

[@zahidali-mt9ck]

Jordan Peterson does appear to be a racist. It seems it is only racists who would say that the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) isn't the 'perfect man'. Pretty sure his hero Nietzsche would agree. In the Antichrist, Nietzsche says, "If Islam despises Christianity, it has a thousandfold right to do so: Islam at least assumes that it is dealing with men." He may have thought more highly of Islam than Christianity insofar as Islam was more focused on this life rather than an afterlife. He also said in the next section of the Antichrist: Christianity destroyed for us the whole harvest of ancient civilization, and later it also destroyed for us the whole harvest of Mohammedan civilization. The wonderful culture of the Moors in Spain, which was fundamentally nearer to us and appealed more to our senses and tastes than that of Rome and Greece, was trampled down (-I do not say by what sort of feet-) Why? Because it had to thank noble and manly instincts for its origin-because it said yes to life, even to the rare and refined luxuriousness of Moorish life!... The crusaders later made war on something before which it would have been more fitting for them to have grovelled in the dust-a civilization beside which even that of our nineteenth century seems very poor and very “senile.”-What they wanted, of course, was booty: the orient was rich.... Let us put aside our prejudices! The crusades were a higher form of piracy, nothing more! The German nobility, which is fundamentally a Viking nobility, was in its element there: the church knew only too well how the German nobility was to be won.... The German noble, always the “Swiss guard” of the church, always in the service of every bad instinct of the church-but well paid.... Consider the fact that it is precisely the aid of German swords and German blood and valour that has enabled the church to carry through its war to the death upon everything noble on earth! At this point a host of painful questions suggest themselves. The German nobility stands outside the history of the higher civilization: the reason is obvious.... Christianity, alcohol-the two great means of corruption.... Intrinsically there should be no more choice between Islam and Christianity than there is between an Arab and a Jew. The decision is already reached; nobody remains at liberty to choose here. Either a man is a Chandala or he is not.... “War to the knife with Rome! Peace and friendship with Islam!”: this was the feeling, this was the act, of that great free spirit, that genius among German emperors, Frederick II. What! must a German first be a genius, a free spirit, before he can feel decently? I can’t make out how a German could ever feel Christian....

[@TheMOV13]

It's time now, perhaps, for JBP to - in addition to saying "It's really deep and complicated" as answers to the questions "Does God really exist" "Do you believe the resurrection really happened" "Are you a Christian" etc...to see that - although these are incredibly profound questions - Jesus himself says that the Kingdom is to be entered by becoming like a little child and unless we become like children we'll never make it. He knows enough now, he's had so many good conversations with amazing Christians, from this point on, unless he takes the gospel on faith in a humble and childlike manner and clearly steps over the line, his speech will get ever more convoluted and word-saladish and - with regard to Christianity - he'll actually have less and less to say. Does that sound harsh? I greatly love and respect him and he has so much to say about so many important issues. He's got more backbone and integrity than I'll ever have, probably, but as regards faith, I just get the feeling he's protecting himself somehow and not quite at the point of really losing his life in this world to gain it in the next.

[@alisterrebelo9013]

@@zahidali-mt9ck I have a simple question for you friend. Do you believe that the term 'morally good' includes (but not limited to) the acts of Muhammed marrying a 6yr and consummating that marriage when she was playing with dolls at 9yr? Sunan an-Nasa'i 3378 It was narrated that 'Aishah said: "The Messenger of Allah married me when I was six, and consummated the marriage with me when I was nine, and I used to play with dolls." Grade: Sahih (Darussalam) Reference : Sunan an-Nasa'i 3378 In-book reference : Book 26, Hadith 183 English translation : Vol. 4, Book 26, Hadith 3380

[@benjaminlquinlan8702]

See, we start to see the myth is attached to the matter at some point... however, the matter that plays host to the myth starts to receed in faith until the bread becomes Flesh... the Word becomes Flesh...

[@LuxInTenebris458]

Oh wow, wonderful conversation! Thank you very much!!! As a confessional Lutheran (the reclusive denomination) myself, I was so happy to hear Jordan Cooper being mentioned (yay, lol!). That thing about going back to what is old, a Saint once said: You go back to what is old, because it is true for it has passed the test of fire (time). I would add though, all fathers have to be tested by the words of the Lord himself. Reading Augustine is simply delicious, but even there one must still weigh the words of Augustine against the words of the Lord (I think brother Augustine would say the same thing, thinking of his ponderings on the relationship between Truth(Hearing the Lord speak) and Magisterial Authority in his contemplation why the words of Ambrose moved him so much to convert). Thank you for your guys efforts.

[@ora_et_labora1095]

Gavin’s video on why Evangelicals need church history made me visit a confessional Lutheran church for the first time and I’ve been going these last Sundays. I’m in awe and in love! Lord willing I will be confirmed there soon.

[@ora_et_labora1095]

Btw, Jordan Cooper is such a blessing. Love him.

[@LuxInTenebris458]

@@ora_et_labora1095 Gods rich blessings for this step in life!

[@jonasopmeer]

Thanks for this awesome ecumenical dialogue Matt! Hope to see more of this. Great discussion.

[@talexanderbirch8186]

I can't wait for this conversation. Easily two of my favorite voices on either side of the Protestant/Catholic discourse!

[@ThePostmillennial]

I agree!

[@keeganmet257]

Same

[@norala-gx9ld]

“Beauty is the arrowhead of evangelization.” -Bishop Barron

[@andrewm3825]

40:40 I’ve thought about this too. I could be wrong, but I think the inability for people to “hang in there,” or sit with the tension of two conflicting perspectives that have a lot of good evidence ultimately comes down to a lack of resilience. A lot of people don’t seem to be very mentally tough, and would prefer to be told what to think. It’s uncomfortable then to decide for themselves what they should think. I say this as someone who’s had multiple big and uncomfortable shifts in my own thinking about free will/determinism, or different eschatological theories. It’s definitely uncomfortable when you reach the point where you’re about to trade a long held belief for another!

[@VVeremoose]

I'm stealing the day of Jubilee idea. That's fantastic.

[@charitybrook6279]

Yes yes yes! Thank you Lord that this conversation has taken place and that we may listen and consider these matters heartily.

[@ethanlovelace2096]

Big Kevin Vanhoozer fan here! Glad to hear his name coming up in this conversation.

[@jjpom9538]

If Matt Fradd were a super hero I think he’d be Captain Obvious! 😂. A lot of what he says is aggressively non-controversial. And I think that’s part of the charm of this channel. Sometimes it’s nice to just hear folks talking about interesting yet mundane things without the rage-bating. 😊

[@jjpom9538]

I really love and appreciate Gavin Ortland. What a true man of God. I hope one day God brings him home to the fullness of the faith so he may experience all of the graces of the sacraments… but even if that doesn’t come to pass, I know that the Holy Spirit will still use him in a powerful way to bring more souls into the Kingdom of God through faith in our Lord Jesus Christ. May our Lord bless him and keep him.

[@obad.iah.]

Been WAITING for this !!!

[@joshranowsky8083]

Ortlund and Fradd, attorneys at law.

[@bradleymarshall5489]

Love this talk. I will say this about JP. I went to a talk of his last year and I honestly didn't think I heard a single thing he hadn't said in his lectures before becoming famous. As C.S. Lewis once said it's through the reading of old books that mere Christianity reveals itself and one can be made aware of modern biases that lead to synthetic religions. Considering how much Peterson gives in to the atheist worldview and how little he seems to know of the great Christian theologians of the past, it seems difficult to conclude he isn't just offering one of those synthetic religions C.S. Lewis tried to warn us about

[@jordand5732]

I appreciate you having Gavin on. Thank you.

[@SethKrier]

It’s so ironic, and sad, to see the kind of finger-pointing that was critiqued at 47:00 being played out in the comments. Like come on guys! Let us be pleasing to the Lord by finding Christ in common!

[@kerrytopel9835]

I think you, Matt, touched on something I thought about when my grown, atheist son asked me what I would do if it was proven that God didn’t exist. My knee-jerk reaction was to say there would be no way to prove that; but he persisted-but what if it was proven? I dug down and came up with: I still would believe because I CHOOSE GOD.

[@josemartinez6316]

I really liked this video. I don't have a lot of channels I follow on KZbin but it has kind of boiled down to debates or arguments against one side or the other. This is a nice change because there wasn't an argument, just a good conversation between 2 friends about stuff I can relate too.

[@meghanyoung8416]

Two of my favourite KZbinrs.

[@TerryTrowbridge]

The year of Jubilee with your children is genius Matt.

[@lukelaws3545]

In regards to the ChatGPT thing, to answer your question: yes. It’s very good at giving points and arguing different opinions and perspectives. Spent a good 30 minutes just debating with it and it is strong

[@toddvoss52]

Will have to watch this in pieces over a couple days .

[@tonyl3762]

Is there some reason Catholics have stopped using the terms "rigorism" and "rigorist" for "conservative" heresies of the "far-right"? Such a helpful term that needs to be revived.

[@MrMonchis04]

How did I missed this.. I'm so excited

[@Anita-silver]

One of the most engaging conversations I've heard in a long time. It left me hungry for more.

[@alleydi8120]

Great conversation! Anyone else think Gavin’s voice sounds just like Fr Gregory Pine’s?

[@joelmontero9439]

Amazing interview! I wish Matt could bring Justin Brierley or Sean McDowell to the show too or Paul VanDerKlay

[@MrEliabe777]

Amazing conversation!

[@thadofalltrades]

I miss the title "Pints with Aquinas"

[@sheri6089]

Am 68 and I've never experienced a world like this. Even with the fear of Soviets attacking, not the chaos, confusion and trouble everywhere like now. 4:39

[@Emerson316]

Great convo, cheers Matt and Gavin ❤

[@joshranowsky8083]

I'd love to have a beer with these two.

[@livvyrae94]

Maybe even a pint?

[@tomlabooks3263]

Really? A beer with two narcissists? I’d pass.

[@joshranowsky8083]

@@tomlabooks3263 YOOOOUUUUU SHALL NOOOOTTTTT PASS!!!!

[@CatchCraftInc]

Until he said it, I didn’t realize how similar to Gavin I was in sometimes over-intellectualizing the faith and being a poor evangelist as a consequence

[@charitybrook6279]

Amen!

[@hannahbahler3135]

Matt, as far as evangelism, your point about someone being attracted to something first is such a good point. As such, perhaps the best form of evangelism might be portraying such a humble beauty in our lives so that others want the same. Then a conversation might start from that

[@JustinMichael1991]

I'm coming to the cigar shop I'm a local I really feel like this conversation makes sense. I'm just trying to think it out also......

[@Rosarymaker]

I am a product of Protestant de-construction and it ended up bringing me to the Catholic Church. So Praise the Lord! I’m sure evangelicals freak out when people leave their rock concert events, but it’s not always a bad thing believe me.

[@CHRISTENDOMINATOR]

Praise God

[@kellibuzzard9431]

I'd love to interview you.

[@Rosarymaker]

@@kellibuzzard9431 I would love to tell my story to anyone who will listen.

[@EmmaBerger-ov9ni]

Gavin and Matt are the reason why now I'm neither a protestant nor a catholic but I haven't ruled out any of the two traditions.

[@Ireland3945]

You must be Orthodox then 🤔😁 it's about time you were coming home to Christ's Church. Dominus Vobiscum 🙏❤️🙏

[@charitybrook6279]

Myself too. God gave me a dream on this matter which I've been called to share in the past but not here today... However the meaning of the dream remains true: When persecution comes, we will not be among baptists or Catholics or seventh day or any other denomination, but among those who hold that Jesus is God above all. And they will be found in the midst of all of these.

[@fortisrisuspater]

The ACNA is in very active dialogue with Rome about limited communion and recognition of Holy Orders. This is a big step toward unity. May not be perfect but definitely good to see active dialogue with purpose.

[@alissarehmert2502]

Maybe I am a weirdo, but I was totally convinced of Catholicism via apologetics. My intellectual side was convinced alongside my emotional side. Without videos from people like Trent Horn, Joe Heschmeyer, etc, I am not sure that I would have converted and would probably still believe in heresy.

[@arturorivas4520]

Imagine if all inter-denominational Christian dialogue was like this. How amazing it would be (I'm looking at you Twitter)

[@Ahnjay_2k]

1:10:09 - 1:11:00 excellent work by Matt.

[@unexpectedTrajectory]

"Kaleidoscopic" is worth a second thumb up

[@DeviantSpark1]

I feel like technology and apps have created social silos that prevents people from having a shared experience and reality.

[@UndercoverSpaz]

No that’s nominalism

[@wesb211]

Excellent

[@anycyclopedia]

I actually learned some things from Gavin Ortlund's videos that helped me defend Catholicism from Evangelicals.

[@kodyoneill497]

That’s cool as long as you’re not yoked to error by certain Marian dogmas ( obviously not that she was the mother of God, she is. Not that she was a virgin at the time of Jesus birth, she was), papal supremacy, or icon veneration. These are man made traditions with no grounding in scripture and simply made from “Tradition” that supposedly was passed down orally and never written down…

[@Summer-sc1ph]

@@anycyclopediacurios, can you give an example?

[@Thatoneguy-pu8ty]

Happy reformation day

[@anycyclopedia]

@@Summer-sc1ph He once showed a quote where Martin Luther said that the "Papal Church" is indeed a true Christian Church with valid sacraments and confession of faith. I showed that to some Evangelicals who were saying the Catholic Church is a false Church. Ironically, Evangelical just said Luther was wrong LOL.

[@anycyclopedia]

@@Thatoneguy-pu8ty you mean "Deformation Day"?

[@scottforesman7968]

'Leave it to Beaver.' 'Ozzie and Harriet'. 'Father Knows Best.' TV shows that I grew up with. I'm 70. And my goodness, this era is like NOTHING I've ever gone thru. My Dad, who was a WWII vet, would say the same, perhaps with greater intensity.

[@philipchaisson]

I want round 2 + Jordan Cooper!

[@MappingtheArchetypes]

We (the west) hates mystery because we removed the center (Christ) from the teleological structure. It's all sand now and so we're all preoccupied with trying to construct a rock. That's why we're trying to build gods everywhere -we miss the one we killed and the solidity he provided. Maybe a better example is: Christ was a compass so exploration was always oriented back to known territory. Going exploring without a compass or a map is just being lost. A relationship with Christ is to be in good standing with Mystery -in love with it even.

[@mariomene2051]

I had to do a sorta long job baking, and you guys kept me company.

[@KennethTonseth]

There was a section where you guys were talking (roughly estimated) 2:11:00 talking about how some sins are recognized and then others aren't. You know I kind of felt like this recently, for me it's kind of like I feel like in my head when somebody says I'm a Christian I find myself questioning what do you mean by that because sometimes it can feel like a person says they're one thing but then as soon as a person turns their back they're beast like backbiting if you get what I mean. I've only been a Christian just over two years, and I've been going to one Church (Protestant) for about 6 months before that I had gone to different churches Catholic being one of them, it interests me to see the dynamic of how some places show Christ outwardly but then other buildings look like high school. Now this is a personal experience of mine, so each person's experience will be different but I feel like Christ said judge not or you will be judged evenly or according to the measure that you judge and I've actually seen it multiple times as a sign. What is your take on this? Because like I say I'm going to Protestant church right now but sometimes I find myself leaning more Catholic the only thing keeping me from that is the fact that it's really overwhelming the amount of stuff you have to do to become like part of it.

[@melodiebear]

I don’t believe there’s ever been a time like this. Where in history was physical reality denied. A time when politicians and judges can’t define a woman because “they’re not biologist”. A time a significant amount of people are claiming things so divorced from reality that you’re just left stunned by the lunacy of it all. No, there’s absolutely no time like this in the history of the world.

[@Thatoneguy-pu8ty]

We were made for such a time as this…

[@beve83]

83 babies!!!

[@AlexCPauwels85]

@1:06:55 We need to immerse ourselves in the Word of God, which is the truth, The Holy Spirit uses His word to guide us. Sometimes we camp too much on philosophy, on denomination battles, on influencers or faith speakers and we neglect the study of the Bible and Prayer which strengthens us and give us peace knowing the Good Shepherd won't let us go astray.

[@kailaleebabineau3962]

Christians that pick a fight over Jordan Peterson not choosing a team completely miss the utility of his neutral position. His refusal to label himself atheist or Christian is what allows him to dialogue with both these groups of people in an effective way and move the public discourse past the petty "new atheist" phase.

[@alisterrebelo9013]

My observations as one of his early fans since 2015-2016: this was true 2+ years ago. Since joining the DW, he has alienated his atheist fanbase mostly because of his headbutting with Dawkins (not necessarily because of the DW move). A sizeable portion of JP's fan base used to be Dawkins-type atheists in the early days (mostly for his political anti-censorship views), but they have mostly abandoned him now; these would be the folks who accuse him of "word salads" and "mumbo jumbo" talk. A lot of JP's atheist fanbase who used to be disaffected atheistic ex-Christians have returned back to Christianity, and remain part of his fanbase.

[@TheMOV13]

@@kailaleebabineau3962 There are things that are of very great and fundamental importance that are more important than being able to dialogue. JPB’s own approach is to follow truth wherever it leads and let the cards fall where they will.

[@benjaminlquinlan8702]

Ye JP is anime protsgonist playing out a role so the thing can actually happen

[@Destractoid]

The problem is that his position is ultimately unhelpful fence-sitting. He wants to dialogue with both sides but won’t deal with the literal realness of Christ, which is causing problems with his ability to dialogue with either. As best as I can tell, he doesn’t want to discuss it because he views the literal virgin birth and literal resurrection as “irrelevant,” which both sides agree is nonsense. I don’t hate or even dislike JP, but I agree with the majority that his refusal to deal with reality is frustrating.

[@Hafstrom1845]

This was a really nice discussion to listen to. The part concerning decision fatigue felt very relatable, in my case I’ve felt it a lot with what church to attend. As someone from a “secular Lutheran” background, I have the last few years tried to learn more about other Christian denominations. For me it seems like a lot of denominations have very good arguments for their particular denomination, so at the end of the day I end up not attending any church service out of decision paralysis. (Although I definitely have narrowed it down to more high church traditions)

[@BrandonGray]

Brethren, I pray that you get this message. The easier things are, the harder the things are. The harder things are, the easier things are. Brethren, we must go back to the genesis of things. We must go back to the Father's. The Father's is where things are harder. We are not advancing we are actually doing the opposite. The more you have the less you have. The less you have the more you have. Everything is wrong. We have to go back to the foundation of things. The foundation is where the "essence or fundamentals" of things are. Men discipline your children at every cost. Men stand firm with your wife's. There is no time to be soft. Make things hard. Harder is better. The world is upside down. It is being ruled by the left side, the women. The world is completely inversed.

[@TOB_IsTheAnswer]

I'm becoming a catechumen this Sunday! 💃🥳🎉

[@OfTheReturnOfficial]

God bless!!

[@gemmiefy]

🎉❤❤❤🎉yey!!!!

[@TracyW-me8br]

God bless you on your journey

[@niftyspiffyguy]

2:01:23 “there’s nothing about the rapture” “… from there [Heaven] He will come to judge the living and the dead.” I’m 99% sure that the rapture is not synonymous with judgement day, and I’m 90% sure the rapture isn’t biblical or at least isn’t Catholic teaching, but that yes, the Church must persevere through any tribulations. Great conversation and I’m thankful for the faith of these men!

[@HiHoSilvey]

I would like to see Glen Scrivner (another Aussi) on this show. Fascinating evangelist and commentator, ordained Anglican.

[@richardheiden8066]

Also, I want to share that on November 4. It will be one year in the Catholic Church. I am amazed at how fast the year has gone, but I am so grateful.

[@ThornyCrown-l5d]

Grateful for what? That now you can rely on your good works to get into heaven instead of Christ as we read in CCC 1821? WOW.

[@richardheiden8066]

I am so sorry that you are hurting so much that you feel the need to attack other brothers in Christ. I would suggest that instead of lashing out at a fellow brother you would ask God for Grace and softening of heart. Saint Michael, the archangel defend us in battle be our protection against the wickedness and snares of the devil. May God rebuke him we humbly pray, and do thou Prince of the heavenly host by the power of God cast Satan and all the evil spirits who prowl about the world seeking the ruin of souls .

[@danieltutty1015]

@@richardheiden8066 fantastic response

[@ThornyCrown-l5d]

@@richardheiden8066 I'm not hurting...AT ALL. I'm simply stating the facts, which you just ignored. So let's say it again: CCC 1821 states that the Catholic's hope for heaven is based on the good works they do with God's grace. THAT, sir, is "another gospel" per 2 Cor 11:4. Second, where do you get the idea that the Catholic poster is my "brother"? The Council of Trent issued a document on the Eucharist wherein they said anyone who disagreed with them was to be considered "satanic, godless, contentious and evil". So your prayer to St. Mike (who can't hear you anyway because he is not omnipresent) is a waste of time. Trent was the one "prowling around" to ruin souls by telling their opponents hell awaits if they aren't in lock-step conformity with the Pope. And of course, Catholic "personnel" who "lashed out" to use your words, and burned SO MANY innocent souls at the stake for not bowing down to a piece of bread, exposes your disingenuous comments are not to be taken seriously. Good day.

[@cesarerinaldi6750]

⚪ (From Dante's Divine Comedy) The Nine Heavens, the Three Archangels and the Two Saints of Paradise: I Temperance, II Prudence and III Peace Saint Raphael, IV Wisdom, V Fortitude and VI Justice Saint Gabriel, VII Faith Saint Michael, VIII Hope Saint Joseph, IX Charity Saint Mary.

[@charitybrook6279]

God gave me a dream on this matter which I've been called to share in the past but not here today... However the meaning of the dream remains true: When persecution comes, we will not be among baptists or Catholics or seventh day or any other denomination, but among those who hold that Jesus is God above all. And they will be found in the midst of all of these.

[@amoleis61023]

I love these discussions. I feel like Protestants don't teach some things well, like the sanctity of marriage, the sacrements, and won't give Mary deserved honor and could learn from Catholics in these areas, whereas Catholics could relax a little and not make such definitive anathemas against non-salvific issues...if we could each listen and decide that we are in accords even if we disagree on lesser issues. We would look more unified to the world I think. Just some thoughts...feel free to tell me I'm wrong 😂

[@richbonafede4546]

Good stuff Mr Ryan....On a somewhat similar journey as yours

[@mattnelms2522]

These brotherly discussions are helping Catholics NOT worship the Bride ... and helping Protestants NOT worship a written Canon. Praise be to the one true, Triune God!

[@JasonHattrick]

If you normally go to the TLM and then decide one day to go to a Novus Ordo Mass and find yourself judging everything about that experience you may have some work to do

[@albertito77]

Arguments matter, just a lot less than we might have thought. A good argument charitably delivered for Christianity is probably shifting your opponent 2% towards being a Christian. You won't see the results at the time but it's probably having an effect.

[@rosiegirl2485]

I would love this conversation so much more if it was Gavins conversion story! I pray for him, and I pray that The Church will have the opportunity to welcome him home! We would be so blessed! ✝️