The Difference Between Comfort and Surviving

[@MyLifeOutdoors]

This video was made financially possible by Zenbivy: geni.us/zHZGQx Zenbivy Light Bed: geni.us/fJthr Zenbivy R5 inflatable Pad: geni.us/TxL9KKl Closed Cell Pad (R2): geni.us/xx4cA Therm-a-Test Xlite NXT: geni.us/950XEty

[@Nightowl_IT]

Please mention the Rating of the tested sleeping bag more offen and a graph with the results. Hope everything comes toghether for more sleeping bag Tests :)

[@jaysway2346]

Instead of just accepting product ratings, Steven is the one doing the real research that consumers want to know.

[@philware1546]

It's not real research. He's done a random unscientific non repeatable test.

[@What_If_We_Tried]

Yep, because corporations can always be trusted in their claims, and advertising. LOL

[@dodgeplow]

@@What_If_We_Tried that's his point in the testing

[@itwasaliens]

It's also ridiculous that they use what looks like a machine that costs thousands of dollars. Probably a lot more to operate and maintain. But they can be more accurately tested by just having someone sleep on it in the cold, and for a lot less. Insanity.

[@munkhtulgamunguntsooj5197]

@@itwasaliensbut the catch is when you do sth commercial, you must be able to define how warm and insulated it could. not just reviews of bunch of guys who said ‘yep it’s enough to make it through 2 nights’. like how could have you been understand this review? no offense it’s just my point of view

[@juliaroe3499]

Thanks for letting me be one of the six strangers! It was an awesome experience and the video turned out great. Very informative!

[@MyLifeOutdoors]

Couldn’t have done it without you. Thanks so much!

[@BipolarBear713]

OMG ARE YOU THE ONE IN THE BLACK BEANIE

[@tc2156]

It was nice meeting you and sharing some laughs in the tent that night.

[@keven8047]

​@@tc2156sounds like yall got freaky

[@naimulpalok4253]

Cool! I live in Florida but this was still fun to watch haha

[@niceguy191]

Foam pad underneath for warmth, inflatable on top for comfort. Works like a charm

[@mikef3808]

And the nice things is if your pad pops and you can't get it patched well, you won't be in for a rough night. It's also nice having the foam so you can just toss it anywhere and relax and lay down

[@andreasbergwall9437]

You will however have a less effective insulation doing it like that.

[@wyattroncin941]

Inflatable lets in cold from the sides. You want the foam on top, so you aren't sleeping on cold air.

[@TomAchterberg-s7s]

I also use a combination of closed foam and inflatable mat. Instead of just (one) inflatable mat, which will always be heavier at a higher R-value. The closed foam mat can be used during the bivouac to sit on, kneel on, etc. Layer them is the way, just as with clothes

[@lechprotean]

@@wyattroncin941 I think a big mac would be optimal here: foam on the bottom to prevent punctures, inflatable, foam in the middle, another inflatable and another foam at the top. And a helicopter to haul it ;)

[@jo_magpie]

As Norwegian I was always taught to have a thin closed foam pad under a thin inflatable. Used it in -20c weather.

[@robwoodring9437]

Wow.

[@wobblysauce]

Yep, you are warm and comfortable and pack up light.

[@putrid_swamp_juice]

Except put the closed cell foam on top.

[@Divig]

I have only used a raindeer skin on top of a foam pad, but that keeps the warmth really well in cold weather. Somewhat bulky to carry though.

[@johnwaters4566]

That's how us Canadians do it too.

[@ecoheliguy]

1) I’m going to reiterate again that I loved the direction this channel has evolved. 2) love that this sponsored collaboration was actually beneficial to the audience 3) I have always used at MEC Evazote Foam pad and would never think of not taking one, recently I dipped my toe back into inflatable after avoiding for years because one leak destroys a good nights sleep. And bought a Big Agnes, which I have used the two in combination. After watching this I’m rethinking placing the foam underneath the inflatable, to now placing the foam mate on top of the inflatable.

[@carolynpiper5367]

After watching this I’m rethinking placing the foam underneath the inflatable, to now placing the foam mate on top of the inflatable. - ditto

[@MyLifeOutdoors]

Thanks. I’m enjoying the new style even though every video has become move involved. Zenbivy is a great sponsor. They authentically want to know the results to better improve their products.

[@wido123123]

@@MyLifeOutdoors My only "complain" here is that I was expecting to know more about sleeping bags (or quilts), but you ended up talking about pads. Don't get me wrong, I do like to knwo about pads, but the video title suggested this time was about bags

[@BlairdBlaird]

Swapping the foam and inflatable might not be really necessary, it may improve insulation a bit by stacking the foam's insulation on top of the wall loss of the inflatable, but it will do so by giving up comfort and puncture resistance. Most likely you'd be better off reducing sidewall losses via a thinner inflatable, which you can do thanks to the foam providing most of the insulation (and some minor comfort).

[@FordPrefect23]

Some years ago my GF decided she wanted to go wild camping for her birthday which is in late November. The first night it dropped below -10°C, the large ponds nearby froze over and the next morning the door on my canvas tent opened like it were made of wood. Yet I never felt cold once sleeping on a closed cell foam pad. Fast forward a couple of years and we were camping near Bovington tank museum ahead of Tiger Day sleeping through the tail end of an Atlantic hurricane. It wasn't at all what I'd call cold but the inflatable pad I was sleeping on chilled me to my core.

[@TheNoobHiker]

Probably one of the most informative backpacking videos I have ever watched. While I enjoy epic adventures and gear reviews, I really enjoy these informative videos. I also think you are really on to something about the testing needing a change.

[@WillN2Go1]

The criticism of the testing procedure seems spot on. The closed cell doesn't allow for convection cooling of air underneath the sleeping bag, obviously the inflatable mattresses do. It's like measuring with the windows open. What I've known from years and several sleeping bags is that they never come close to their temperature rating, that they work best with a liner, cotton in the summer, thick fleece in the winter. And that a sleeping bag's rating is kind of a vague standard. A zipped up bag with your face barely sticking out and one that your head is not enclosed are two different things. I can say I've used the same bag from 90F (32C ) to -10F/-23C On a 90 degree night, the sleeping bag is next to me and I'm in the cotton liner in underwear and t shirt. At -10C, which are some of the best nights of my life, I was fully dressed, two pairs of wool socks a parka hood on and a fleece liner. I use Klymit air mattresses. One has an 'R' rating of 1 the insulated one 4.4. I've never noticed much difference.

[@TheWillRogers]

Running the cables through ports in the eyes of the mannequin is crazy lol.

[@MyLifeOutdoors]

I agree! But the Face is the only area not covered by a sleeping bag

[@professormarceloricci]

​@@MyLifeOutdoors Thank God Fred is safe and sound! Poor Newton...

[@nobodyinnoutdoors]

Definitely a decision lol. But honestly once you think about it everything else is just weirder. Middle of forehead? Nah, mouth nah, cheeks? Like maybe but angled.. Should have made you plug in the jack through the neck with goo. Maybe ghost in the shell fans and not matrix fans lmfao.

[@annoyed707]

Our hybrid says all this has happened before...

[@rogerexcell249]

... Am I the only one who thought of Flash Gordon and the security guards with goggles plugged into their eyes?

[@jamescull6325]

Interesting video. I do a fair bit of thermal engineering as part of my job. Your testing is consistent with my thoughts after reading ASTM F3340. What we are measuring here is heat flux. Heat flux is usually defined by the flow of energy (heat) over an area per unit of time. Area is the important thing here. Testing insulation in the wall of a house using this method works fine because side walls of cavities are a small proportion of the area exposed to the outside. We can ignore them for the most part. Sleeping pads are different. The sides and ends on a 25”x72”x3” pad can amount to more than 17% of the top and bottom area. This jumps up to nearly 21% if the pad is 4” thick. Air, more importantly, is not trapped in the same way in all baffle designs. Good insulation tries to reduce air movement into small discrete pockets. This is why foam works so well. Inflatable pads not so much. I would want to see the test include at least 2 side walls cooled as a minimum. It might make more sense that everything but the heated surface is kept cool.

[@MyLifeOutdoors]

I would really like to perform ASTM 3340 in a walk in freezer and see if it gets different results. That could keep the testing rig the same while accounting for the sides of the pad

[@memathews]

@@MyLifeOutdoors Yes, testing in a walk-in is the answer!

[@wobblysauce]

Yes do it... so much misinformation on there and different ratings, you can clearly tell a difference when you try it yourself. Just like some also forget that you need to be in your winter woollies, full-length top/bottoms socks gloves and head covering to get the required rating, but some others at the same rating you can be in shorts and a t-shirt and feel quite fine.

[@jamescull6325]

After having even more time to think on this, I am even more convinced this test is flawed. I did some HVAC calculations in a previous life. I went back to review the theory once I realized this is like heat loss calculations for house slabs. The formula typically used only uses the perimeter of the slab. The reasoning is that conduction to soil under the slab is typically poor in comparison to the perimeter where the soil is open to both conduction and convection. It would be interesting to put thermocouples at the center and edges of different mattresses to see the gradient. I expect there would be differences between horizontal and vertical baffle designs.

[@redavni1]

Great post man. Thanks

[@johnrossman6679]

I was in the Army from 1989-1998 as an 11B Infantryman. First part was National Guard in Montana until I transferred to regular Army in 1995. They gave us "puss pads" which are the closed cell foam pads that I just now learned what they were. I was very comfortable out in the woods with this when we set up camp. It was usually very rainy and damp depending on the season. I got good setting up my poncho with bungie cords as a cover to keep the rain off me. With the sleeping bag, I was dry and comfortable. Another bonus, as an E4 I rarely had to do watch.

[@jameskerrigan2997]

I liked last watch, half the time the guy before me fell asleep and didn't wake me up. And if he did I was packed up and ready to go when I woke everyone up. 11 B ft wainwright Alaska.

[@diegoecheagaray2124]

A foam pad next to the ground for warmth, an inflatable on top for comfort, and a light wool/fleece blanket wrapped around both. Perfect!

[@znail4675]

I would consider putting the blanket around the foam pad or even have a cover that fits around it.

[@gobraddydotcom]

I stand by it. No pads next time! Thanks for letting me be a part of the experiment!

[@MyLifeOutdoors]

Thank you for providing some comic relief! And thanks for participating!

[@Saguache]

Two advantages closed cell sleep systems have over their inflatable siblings. One, they are for the weight more effective. This is essentially what you just tested and it's nice to see some data behind an idea I've just experienced. Two, closed cell foam pads will never get a leak. I am currently in possession of five inflatable mattresses, all of which have a leak ... somewhere. All these leaks occurred when I was in the back country. Honestly, the comfort advantage question is subjective to begin with and completely wrong the first time you wake up to a flat airpad at 2 am on a cold night.

[@professormarceloricci]

That’s the same reason I gave up on inflatable pads. Due to concerns about volume and weight, I’m currently using 2mm-thick EPE foam during the summer (Southern Hemisphere, by the way), adding an extra layer of mylar sheet in winter (minimum temperatures around 32ºF). In harsher weather, I fold the foam to double its thickness under my torso. So far, it’s been working well.

[@tc2156]

Steven, thank you so much for letting me be a part of this study! I learned so much from the experiment and learned even more from this video. I had a wonderful time in the woods hanging out with some pretty neat people. Thank you Zenbivy for sponsoring this and for gifting us with a light bed system. I’ve already taken the system out 5 more times this winter. I’ve been very impressed with the system and might upgrade to the UL quilt someday.

[@MyLifeOutdoors]

Thanks for making this video great! Your XTherm comment was getting to the heart of this video long before I knew what was going on!

[@tc2156]

@@MyLifeOutdoorsthat’s awesome. 😂 I really wondered why I was cold on it sometimes. Maybe I should start carrying 2 Gossamer gear ⅛” foam pads. I’ll experiment with those Vs a CCF pad.

[@miker5502]

Kudos to Steven for doing what the Outdoor Camping Industry should be doing, giving us accurate and real world information and results. For cold Canadian nights my setup includes a closed cell pad, with an inflatable pad for added comfort on top. Works a treat for me, Cheers from a subscriber in Nova Scotia. MikeR.

[@jpriddle]

Finally! I have always experienced CCF pads being warmer than their R value compared to my inflatables. My favorite system is to pair a 1/8” foam pad with the inflatable. Usually put the foam underneath, but if I get really cold, the foam feels even more effective on top.

[@JayCWhiteCloud]

Not that this comment matters much as we are all different...but...I will validate that I am an outdoor professional, and have been (on and off) for over 40 years. I was also raised traditionally and have been sleeping "outside" in natural temperatures since 1968 on average of 200 to 300 days a year. The extremes in cold have been down to -55°C (-67°F)...I still find a wool pad or closed cell foam pad to be more than adequate for any sleep system I have used, of which often I make my own rather than going with commercial systems...Thank you for an informative video and great channel!!!

[@Meaganhaha]

Your time spent outside counts very much in this discussion.

[@JayCWhiteCloud]

@@Meaganhaha Thanks Meagan...That is very appreciated!!!

[@tylernblaney]

Closed cell foam always under my inflatable sleeping pad. Winner every time!

[@SerenityGS]

This is one of those unique videos that forces change in an industry.

[@SteRobWms]

Yes! Love this video. Ever since I was a child, I’ve HATED inflatable mattresses. Hot and sweaty in the summer and cold and clammy in the winter. It is nice to see the testing process and the other comments and their two-piece suggestions for a foam + inflatable setup. Great video and great community!

[@ScottCannon4SmartBiz]

I’ve long believed that the sidewalls of air mattresses are essentially like walls in a house with NO insulation. Sure the layers of insulation from top to bottom reduce your heat loss to the ground, but if the side walls are essentially wide open (thinking of air mattresses that use horizontal Mylar film layers) then heat exchange with the outside air is essentially only slowed down by the layer of nylon shell. I’d love to see air mattress manufacturers also add Mylar layers at the sides to compensate for this.

[@MyLifeOutdoors]

That’s exactly what I think is happening

[@professormarceloricci]

@@MyLifeOutdoors What if a quilt were used, set to cover those sides?

[@MyLifeOutdoors]

If you can insulate the sides without exposing the inside of your quilt to the cold ground I think you would see better results

[@Lucky888s]

@@MyLifeOutdoors I recently saw a video of an inflatable pad being cut open. It was impressive how there were 3 sets of reflective material inside to reflect the radiant heat back toward your body. BUT there was no reflective material set vertically along the edges to reflect heat back into the pad. A pad is like the old historic houses with single pane windows letting heat escape.

[@diegoecheagaray2124]

Just wrap a a light wool/fleece blanket around your air mattress and side heat loss becomes negligible!

[@czluver4338]

I use both a Therm-a-rest pad and a Klymit insulated pad for an overall R value around 6.4 when hammock camping. I learned the hard way to not skimp on proper insulation.

[@pack_yak]

After a few experiences with inflatable pads with leaks, I switched to only using a z lite foam pad and have been completely happy with it. I've used it as a single layer pad on snow with a perfectly good nights sleep as long as my sleeping bag was also warm enough. Living in an area with many spiky desert plants the peace of mind of knowing I will never wake up halfway through the night on a deflated pad is immense.

[@SJones-hk4tw]

For car camping I use a queen size blow up mattress with a thin memory foam topper on top and sheet. Cozy and warm.

[@robinschrup5574]

In Winter i am going out in the alps with a carinthia defance 4 sleeping bag, carinthia sleepingbag cover and a thermarest zlite foam matt. Even in -20 C. and on snow i never felt cold. I upgraded to a Tensor all season just now but only for comfort, beeing warm was never a issue!

[@naturesnerds8548]

As a Boy Scout mom this is drilled into the kids of what to bring camping especially during winter time. But I've personally used the foam pads for years and have no issues, though I will stack them to get another cush layer in. Im going to share this with our Troop. Thank you for the great information.

[@kstoeb]

Thanks for your work. It's a nice confirmation to my thoughts and experiences. When I was starting camping (in the early 80s) everyone 'knew' that closed-foam mats were better than air-matresses in every metric. Later I switched to the original Therm-a-Rest for comfort. Now I am back to foam and fine with it. Plus: They are virtually unbreakable.

[@KevinRStrauss]

Another fun video, thanks! I've used CCF pads for my entire 27-year backpacking career, the Therm-a-Rest Zrest or Zlite, with no issues down to freezing 32F/0C and a 30F sleeping bag (Western Mountaineering Down). I've used the same CCF pad with temperatures around 20F and a 15F sleeping bag and I was very warm all night long. Phew! More recently, I've used two 1/8" CCF overlapping and my 30F sleeping bag (no longer holding that Comfort Rating) plus a Silk Liner, and was super comfortable at 40F. I typically only wear a base layer to sleep in, I prefer to be warm (i.e. I sleep cold) and these systems have worked for me just fine. Now, I'm playing with 1 x 1/8" pad (short) and a 6' Reflectix sheet - so far, so good - and this will be my 3-season AT2025 system paired with my old 30F sleeping bag plus Silk Liner.

[@BlakeMenzies]

Thanks!

[@MyLifeOutdoors]

Thank you!

[@nesmity1]

I found that more from a comfort and security standpoint, I've always used a foam base pad and air pad on top. It is a better night sleep, gives me more warmth, and if I have a pop, it's not the end of the world. When I have to go super light, I just bring a foam pad, and with enough exhaustion, sleep just fine.

[@iseabeck9488]

I sprung for a Zenbivy when I bought my first real backpacking setup. So glad I made that choice up front.

[@flippinwithamy3397]

That’s very surprising. I use the closed cell pad in my hammock with an under quilt. Nice to know I am using the warmest option.

[@LeviBoldt]

A proper underquilt will be warmer than CCF, and comfier!

[@Michael-vm8kj]

@@LeviBoldtshe just stated she uses both…

[@davehumpleby3440]

Thanks for doing these tests and providing the results to us end-users. It is very helpful and gratefully received.

[@LeviBoldt]

As a hammocker, this makes me even less likely to go to ground unless I'll be above the treeline. I love the way you nerd out with this stuff. Keep it up!

[@dtaylor10chuckufarle]

Smart: conduction through the cold ground is huge. Hammock must be much warmer!

[@kaltziferYT]

What setup do you use with the hammock?

[@timonix2]

​@@kaltziferYT I use a cheap 2 person hammock a'la china. an underquilt, a sleeping bag which I use as an overquilt by zipping it up, just leaving the footbox. lightweight 3mx3m tarp. I like to have doors. a small closed cell foam pad. I think its 90cm X 30cm. Which I place under my butt, or use as a pad to sit on when eating/resting

[@LifeIsMidYT]

This completely changes my mind about my sleep system. I keep trying different inflatable pads but now I think I'll just carry the lightest possible inflatable and add a torso length CCF

[@xiaoabrose]

Very worthwhile. Thank you! My winter setup is both. Comfort and insulation. Gives me more confidence on the foam.

[@iandavis385]

I have a 45 year old Karrimat (closed cell foam mat) that I've used under a Jökel R1.2 mat, and that's nice and warm down to 3°C. Layers work well, and the foam protects the airbed. Great videos. Keep up the good work.

[@neemancallender9092]

As an old timer, I am not surprised by your results We only had ensolite mats, they were absolutely fine even when sleeping on snow So your results of one 1R value pad being adequate fits very with my years of experience of winter camping In fact I have returned to using the Exped Flexmat Plus, which gives me an R value of 2.2, and a very thin mat to even out the egg carton effect and holds more air (quite comfortable enough) Also I was tired of deflation, never had good luck with inflatables !

[@kaifaust]

I use an air mattress very deflated for its comfort and a foam pad for its warmth. The combo is the best way!

[@JW-jc4vi]

Great video. In the early 90s I can remember an outdoor instructor not recommending self inflating mats in the winter. He said the same thing you found out.

[@azteacher26]

This is investigative journalism. Outstanding. I think the best combo is a closed cell plus an inflatable. Helps with punctures and you can use the closed cell anytime around camp as a seat. In fact I'm surprised they don't sell a combo.

[@richard_n]

This may be the best sleeping bag/pad video I've ever seen. I've always been a fan of solid pads over inflatable ones. So happy to be vindicated. Great job.

[@Suncity4]

Great vid. Your controlled approach to testing is convincing. Helps me understand why my older foam self inflating pads cross the Spring and Fall boundaries better than inflatables with the same R values. Just find pads that work and stop chasing R values that now seem more for marketing than practicality. Yes, guilty, I have too many pads. 😅

[@trekkingwithtim]

I always use both. A cheap inflatable pad and an old egg roll from the 80,s, all very light and covered thousands of miles and loads of nights out with this set up. Never cold.

[@simontate1376]

Great video. I've used a Robens zigzag closed cell foam and a 3/4 self inflating mat for hip and shoulder comfort. Never cold. Tried an uninsulated mat for summer but it was more the comfort that I didn't enjoy. Found what works for me.

[@BrunoPlourde]

Great video! 🙂 My sleep setup might be unorthodox, and goes like this : I slip my inflated pad (a Decathlon MT 500 (R 1,5)) INSIDE my sleeping bag (also Decathlon mummy down, comfort rated 0 degree Celcius or 32 F and bought used on Marketplace). I sleep in the « padded » sleeping bag, in a thin polyester liner (so I am not directly in contact with the pad). I bought polyester fabric by the roll and sewn it myself. On the ground, underneath my sleeping bag, I lay a piece of Reflextix (bought a roll at Home Depot and cut to my size, 24 wide x 80 long). I must say I am a very warm sleeper, but have gown down to close to -10 C or 15 F with no worries. This setup, while it requires a bit of DIY work, is very inexpesive and more than adequate for my needs. BONUS : since my pad is inside my sleeping bag, I eliminate all risks of falling off it during the night. However, for people who move around a lot during the night, this setup might not be the best (movements are more difficult in these close quarters). Your video made me realise that my pad-in-mummy setup must help a lot, since as you state, my pad is surrounded by the warm air inside my sleeping bag, and not exposed to the cold outside air.

[@HikingwithRouletteRun]

Earlier this year, I did some cold weather testing of my sleep system to find the minimum "comfort rating" of my sleep system. I started with a UGQ 10°F quilt. To that I added a regular Sea to Summit "Reactor" sleeping bag liner on top of a Kilos Gear R 5.0 sleeping pad with a closed cell foam pad under that. I was wearing alpaca wool socks, Brynje mesh top and bottom, and Merino Tech 250 merino wool top and bottom on top of that. A Merino Tech merino wool buff covering my neck and mouth, and lastly, a merino wool beanie from Minus 33. I discovered my minimum "comfort rating" to be 20°F, and it was definitely the sleeping pad that gave up the ghost first. My feet were warm enough I was able to kick off my socks, but the cold would seep into my torso area from below. I did this testing so I would know what weather was too cold for me to be out camping in. Now, with this testing out of the way, I know what outdoor air temperatures are too cold for me to be hiking in. Thanks for the video!

[@roselee_explores]

In the winter - the most comfortable/warm I’ve been was on a Nemo Switchback 0:15 surprisingly. I’ve got the XTherm but I’m routinely cold on it and just find Thermarest pads uncomfortable. I tried layering an REI pad on top of the GG Thinlight pad - this didn’t work well due to the pads shifting. And trying to sleep on a Thinlight pad was miserable. Best bet for winter camping… a hammock 😎

[@theotheralan5511]

Yes if you put the fire next to your tarp and throw a blanket over your Ridgeline you can't get any smoke but the heat circulates all around you.

[@piro_travels]

This video made me feel so much better about my decision to buy a slightly more expensive Thermarest pad. I wasn't sure if I needed it for freezing temperatures but after trying it in the snow I feel justified. Great video as always!

[@matthewlerpiniere8953]

It has been awhile since I have slept straight on closed foam, however when winter camping here in Ontario Canada, I will always put a closed foam pad under my inflatable. I use a -18C bag, and an insulated pad of 4R and a Nemo closed cell foam that is about 2.5. There is definitely a difference adding the closed cell foam pad. In temps dropping below -10C even with the R4 pad I will feel cold at night, bearable but cold, add the closed cell and I am far more comfortable. Since discovering this difference I always use closed cell foam under my inflatable when winter camping. Thanks for the great videos and the research and reviews.

[@bertplemmons8384]

When camping on snow, I’ve learned over the years to use two pads together. Closed cell on the bottom AND an insulated inflatable on top of that. Really makes the difference between tolerable and not. And I use the closed cell for a chair before bedtime.

[@JayFolipurba]

This was one of the most informative videos I've seen in a long time. It had everything I wanted to know, thank you

[@christopherch7307]

Zenith Bivy thank you for helping out in this video. 👍🐿👍

[@-_-----]

Fantastic - thanks for using your brain and actually getting down to the bottom of things.

[@cameronschultz519]

So I am in the army stationed in the interior of Alaska, I use the exact foam sleeping pad you had, it has kept me warm all the way down to -40. Highly recommend.

[@tomwilliams8675]

Back in my camping days, early 70's, all I had was a green 1/2 "closed cell foam pad and my North Face bag. I don't know the rating of the bag, but we would camp in the Adirondacks in December, and I'd be comfortable. The good old days. 🤝🤝🇺🇸🇺🇸

[@chriscook3120]

Still a winning combination I use a quilt but the foam pads hold up the best in the lean to shelters.

[@frstesiste7670]

I'm (unfortunately) old enough to remember a time where inflatable pads hadn't been invented yet. I and most of my friends in the boy scouts had cheap 8mm foam pads which we used year round. Didn't go out in severe cold, but certainly down to below freezing - probably in the 35-25F range. I can't recall anyone being too cold to sleep with those pads and sleeping bags rated at 15-20F. Later some upgraded to 10mm foam pads which didn't make much of a difference but then Thermarests appeared, and I bought one as soon as they became available where I live. The big differences for me were comfort and it packed smaller. Hard to compare warmth (as you know) but even the first generation Thermarest (1.5 inch) was clearly warmer than an 8-10mm foam pad and worked fine when sleeping on snow. The self-inflating pads are much thinner than the current typical "air pads", but there is very little air circulation since they are filled with foam (to be self-inflating). The foam makes the self-inflating pads heavier than the new thick air pads, but warmer per inch and maybe less influenced by the environment? Would have been interesting to see how a self-inflating pad had "behaved" in your test. Guess it's too late for that, but when my first 1.5-inch Thermarest broke I went for a one inch one. Maybe I'm atypical and sleep warmer than average but even the thinnest self-inflating pad have worked fine for me even when sleeping on snow.

[@wobblysauce]

Yep, still have an old logo Thermorest 3/4 inflatable mat that works better than several others I have tried, warm, thin and comfortable.

[@james.telfer]

Ditto on experiences in Scouts, we were mainly cold because sleeping bags were pretty rubbish back then! Our 'carry mats' were always the warmest part. Only recently tried a foam filled mat but it was summer so warmth wasn't a consideration. It was more comfortable than a thin pad though.

[@AaronMaz]

Foam pad has worked for me great. I’ve been using it in the back of my truck bed this winters hunting season. The times I have forgot it I could feel the heat being sucked through my 20 degree bag into the metal bed. Foam made a world of difference. No an air mattresses fan cause I can’t get comfortable on them.

[@dghudson68]

I've been sleeping with a Gossamer Gear 1/8" pad on the bottom with a Thermarest Neo Air Xlite (yellow pad at 4.2 R-value a few years old) and a 22° Katabatic quilt on top. On cold nights into the 30 or colder I can feel the cold coming through the pad even after hours in bed and have wondered about cold air chilling the pad from the sides. Now I need to try putting the 1/8" pad on top of the inflatable pad to see if that is warmer. Thanks for being the unbiased Consumer Reports of backpacking gear. Your videos are excellent and you got my vote for top backpacking content creator.

[@johnk3337]

So cool! Love the video. I used a conventional thermarest with a closed-cell ridge rest on top for the longest time. This combo helped me stay warm and comfortable for the longest time.

[@EllenLangfordPaints]

You're terrific. I loved this. I sleep cold but I've long preferred a closed cell foam pad to inflatable. I really appreciate this video of yours because, as I near starting my thru hike of the AT, I've been anxious that I "should" get an inflatable. Since even in the low 20s my closed cell foam pad has kept me plenty warm, your video has given me the confidence to stick with what I know.

[@bikeforcolin]

Thanks for helping me better understand my 4 season setup when I do my annual bike ride with kid trailer up the Poudre Canyon. Since pack size is not a limiting factor, I bring a foam ridgerest and an air pad (Big Agnes Rapide in the past, Nemo Tensor for the last 2 years). It gets below 20F at night most Januarys we have gone and I stay warm.

[@macmurfy2jka]

I only recently picked up an air mat for comfort. For most of my 20 years of camping experience, I have only ever used foam mats. I used ridge rests for car camping, and 3/8ths Eva pads, cut to shape for backpacking. I never really had any issues sleeping down to really cold temps with that setup. Now , if cold temps are concerned I put a mat over the air mat. Nice and warm.

[@wanliyang6511]

WOW! Thought the “hollow feeling” of the air pads is just my illusion that makes me feel cold! Thanks for another science class, Steven!

[@Redneckeverything]

Depends a lot on the person and the tent as well. With Nordic tents and warm clothes I have felt really nice with a +10c sleeping bag on a R-2 pad down to about - 2 as the tent is not so ventilated and thus heats up quite a bit from those sleeping in it.

[@Kevin-ib3io]

Interesting point about the unrealistic tests of R value. Thanks for sharing!

[@jasonmiles8974]

You makes sense, large lofty pads tend to be hard to stay warm on in cold weather, and I found just the addition of a z light or similar makes them significantly warmer. I think there is a lot of heat lost in the exposed areas of the pad.

[@slimjim2584]

10/10 thumbnail! funniest one i have seen in a long time

[@steves7271]

Yup, I used both together. Closed cell for warmth and inflatable for comfort. If you blow into your inflatable mattress the moisture from your breath will also increase heat transfer, meaning you will lose heat quicker. Full length over 3/4 every time. 2 thinner bags are better than one thick.

[@tadghsmith1457]

Excellent research. This is why I subscribe to this channel. My experience with the z-fold foam pads is that in freezing temps I can feel the cold coming up through the ground. With the foam pad in addition to an inflatable pad with an R value of 3 I don’t feel the cold from the ground.

[@connerpoppke6780]

As others here have said, using both systems is the best way to go. To keep my pack light and compact, i use a super thin closed cell pad and then a nemo tensor ontop. I'd recommend seeing how good the benefit of a dual system is

[@ADKHillyMan]

For winter camping I always combine a 5/8" closed cell foam pad with an inflatable pad of R4 or higher. This allows me at least 1" of combined padding beneath heavy areas of my torso and to adjust the inflatable pad to maximum comfort. On cold nights of 10+degrees the inflatable pad is on top. On colder nights I place the closed cell pad on top for greater warmth. Cold air infiltrates through the sides of an inflatable pad, and especially pools at the high pressure points.

[@MukOutdoors]

This is exactly my experience, and I suspect it's more pronounced the thicker your inflatable is (mine is 4" at the edges)

[@robwoodring9437]

Would a mylar blanket between your bag and the inflatable pad not accomplish this better? Downside: crinkling noises. Upside: much less stuff in your pack.

[@andreasbergwall9437]

And a closed cell foam pad is more effective relative to its thickness so it makes much more sense to have it on top if conserving energy is your goal.

[@andreasbergwall9437]

​@@robwoodring9437would it not just make the inflatable pad a little better but suffer the same effect of cool down as it did before? The problem is you are heating up air that is exposed to cold air on the sides and where you don't lay, the mylar won't change that. If the corner of a closed cell foam pad is -20C it won't affect you but it would on an air mattress.

[@jeffbgoldman]

I have used closed-cell pads on all my thru hikes. The pros: they're indistructable, unlike a blow up that can pop. Also, you don't have to blow the thing up every night. Cons: they're bulky. In terms of weight, it's more or less a wash. I was thinking about revisiting using a blow up on my next hike, but, after this video I'm going with the foam. Thank you for taking the time do make this video...

[@Kimrah1]

I've used a foam pad about the same thickness as yours as ground isolation and on top a thin, self-inflating matress for 30 years now. Has kept me warm and comfortable to about -15°C/5°F in a sleeping bag advertised for 0°C/32°F. Try to put your tent on top of a layer of dry!! leaves, straw or reeds, keep you feet nice and warm with good, thick wool socks and you are golden.

[@jeffcmo1957]

During the summer for backpacking, I normally have a camp. And I take a old-school foam Thermo rest. I use it to sit on. I use it to line my hammock with it seems to work out pretty good for me.

[@Voljinable]

Love how even the voices of this group are unique and diverse haha, some caught me off guard a bit but all lovely, just like this vid!

[@josiebones1]

I started out camping (many years ago) on a closed cell foam pad, including winter/snow, and I was always baffled that they have such low r value ratings. Comfort is a completely different story, of course, but your test really makes a lot of sense and is really informative as usual. Thanks for another great video!

[@jeppej4265]

Using both together is the way to go. During late early summer to foam works as a place to sit on breaks etc. If it's a cold night you put it on top of air pad. Winter or other colder seasons I still have my same R 3.2 air pad but then I have thick foam pad on top of it. When it's on top it feels warmer against you. Air for comfort, closed cell for warmth.

[@konradbas4921]

when i was camping in really low temp i used common inflated pad AND old german army close cell pad (Bundeswehr Isomatte - about 5mm thick) together. it was great even in -30*C. In any other circumstances i used inflated for comfort, and closed cell if i needed something rugged for example if i needed something puncture-proof

[@noahfyan9617]

Ive always only used closed cell foam started with one now I use 2 and I think its pretty comfortable, i would say get 1 and use it in combo with an inflatable if thats your preference they arent heavy or really that bulky

[@timhaines8207]

Great Video. It uncovers the lid on R values and why the ratings don't always appear to reflect the actual experience. Seeing the test rig was interesting and made it obvious why the values are not reliable. The test rig spreads the load over a large area whereas in reality the load is concentrated in certain places. When this happens the thickness of the mat drastically decreases along with the R value. So what you end up with is lower R values around the body where you need them and higher R values around the thicker perimeter of the mat which does pretty much nothing to keep you warm. Closed cell mats on the other hand don't have this draw back as they are less compressible.

[@AdventuressAli]

This may be the thing that gets me to finally tip back to trying closed cell. My first long term camping was a tiny blue roll mat and my hips hated it. I was sooo comfy in my first thermarest blow up mat that i tight id never go back.... but I've been considering it for the ease of set up, midday use, etc. I sleep cold too, so this is really good info to add to my consoderations.

[@IntheForestofCA]

The winter camping component program I worked at at a university always uses a closed cell pad. Sleep overnight in Quinzhees, no issues

[@billb5732]

Good test. It explains the common observations on the subject. Thanks.

[@wazzup105]

My capacity to keep warm seems to change during the night. Not only because it gets colder in the early morning, but even indoors. When I go to bed I am chilly, but warm up quickly. Halfway during the night I'm getting hot and in the early morning I get chilly again and after that I seem to get a bit warmer again. This all gets amplified when the temperature outside changes overnight. My strategy for cold weather camping is combining a cheap inflatable (R=1) with a closed cell foam one. One for comfort, the other for warmth. Some sort of reflectix on the torso part also helps.

[@estdrake]

After many year of winter camping in Canada (-15C and bellow). The best I found is waterver (R2 or more)sleeping pad you have at the bottom for comfort with a close cell foam pad on the top. My personal choice is a thermarest ProLite plus (R3.2) with a z-lite on top. With that I never melt the snow under me and never feel the cold.

[@mrcraftiest]

I love the video and its gauge, calculations

[@jamiebizness1]

I was camping the last week . It was around -3c in a Hennessy hammock my bag rated for -7 and a r2 pad .I was cookin in there it was lovely

[@Coreycry]

letting you know for future videos that 0:35 mixing music is too loud compared to voice.

[@thesecretshade]

Priceless information! Unfortunately I need this for my survival as I will soon be on the streets but I hope this will let me survive.

[@nathanchristopher8585]

Keep on keepin' on, be smart and stay warm - it can be rough out there, I know it. If you can stack layers of cardboard in addition to your sleeping pad, that also helps a lot.

[@thesecretshade]

@nathanchristopher8585 thank you! I appreciate it. I feel very depressed today. I don't know if they open any emergency spaces for the coming low freeze weather the next days.

[@_crane_7475]

I love the channel and your experiments. I also love how you have Patty Stewart back there making sure everything is okay. lol Thanks again Steven!

[@MyLifeOutdoors]

I was wondering if anyone would notice him. He keeps scaring my wife so I’m afraid he’s going to have to go.

[@_crane_7475]

@ ill take him and give him a loving home

[@Taggi]

I have been using a closed cell foam pad(1.9 R-value) in -15C to -20C and it has never gotten more than slightly cold even with a -15C sleeping bag.

[@toddwilson1230]

Great video! Reaffirms my own experience and why if I’m going sub zero I’m always taking a close cell with me as an under mat.

[@Spark_of_Fate]

You could do a closed cell pad initially in the ground to be the first layer of insulation, then an inflatable pad above that for added comfort.

[@ScottyD_NZ]

In winter here in NZ and I use a closed cell foam pad underneath my inflatable. During the summer I just use the inflatable. Great video, I appreciate the insight!

[@kurio999]

With winter camping, I've never gone air pad alone, so can't offer a comparison. I've had too many air pad blowouts to risk that on frozen ground. CCF (R2) goes on the bottom to protect from punctures with Klymit air pad (R4.4) on top. Been down to -15C yet still comfortably warm. Once on a -20C campout, we had to stand on CCF pads to prevent toe frostbite even through our so-called 'winter' boots. Proved a clear demonstration of how heat is lost more quickly through the ground than through air.

[@timporter8886]

Brilliant post, thankyou for doing this experiment. Strangely, I have recently switched back to closed cell foam, as it's far less faff and no chance of damage. Good to know that there are other more important reasons for this swap.

[@tremmi7]

Thank You for this test. It enforces my thoughts about inflated sleeping mats. Test is done in too warm environment and it doesn't count tossing and turning through night, Espicially with Therm-A-Rest like pads leak warm through sides. Exped style synthetic or down mats doesn't allow so much air movement and feel litlebit warmer. I have found best comfort + warmth using closed cell foam mat above inflatable mat

[@Paul-dw1qm]

When I have gone on overnights in all temperature ranges including on 18" of ice, I always put a reflective emergency blanket under the sleeping pad with the shiny side up so any body heat will be reflected back to me and that any dampness or moisture will not come through the bottom.