The Differences between Atheism and Agnosticism & The Flaws of the Gnostic-Theist Scale

If you're not familiar with the internet discourse surrounding the terms atheist and agnostic, this video may seem a bit strange; however, these terms are often conflated, intentionally, in order to push certain narratives.
They are, of course, completely different concepts, as I quickly explain here in this video before going on to disprove any and all attempts at muddying the waters with doublethink and made up scales.
Tags: #debate #education #philosophy #theology

[@ironichoneybadger5066]

My favorite thing about the Atheism vs Agnosticism is the rejection of original and more esoteric meaning of Agnosticism, it's an evolution of the word that's within the word: gnosticism, it's a complex belief and agnostic beliefs are evolutionary from it

[@ricco48219]

I’m glad you’re posting on here more because I am DONE with TikTok.

[@peitskie2939]

Im actually an agnostic but i come to the conculusion that its easier to say im atheist than explaining what is agnostisim

[@titusjames4912]

I like to just admit I'm agnostic to a fault.

[@hlantian7563]

My problem with the word Agnostic is that it's been heavily redefined by religious people to basically mean "Atheist, but reasonable and potentially receptive to our religion". It's basically a contrast to their definition of "Atheists" who are described as people that would say things such as "I don't think a god can exist". The people their definition of "Atheist" describes do not exist. No serious person says that it's completely impossible for a supernatural entity (that just so happens to be completely invisible to us so far) to exist. So by default, they push atheists to agree to be part of their definition of "Agnostic" that comes with the insinuation that they as "Agnostics" are meant to be more receptive to religious ideas and thinking.

[@nickolasmelonballer]

@@hlantian7563 please do me a favor and go tell atheists that none of them hold the position, “I do not think a god can exist.” Like, this literally has to be your first day on the internet if you have this take LMAO. Seriously, please, stop projecting your more rational beliefs onto atheists. About 40% of them of are raving lunatics who deny all metaphysical doctrine, outright. Edit: just to hopefully avoid a lengthy back and forth: according to PEW research (which you can find on the PEW website under the article “8 facts about atheists”), 77% of self-identified atheists do not believe in “a higher power or spiritual force of ANY KIND.” So, no, unsurprisingly, if you actually go out and talk to people, you will find atheists do not, in fact, believe that any god does exist. (And you can try to dishonestly say that you said “can,” and not “does” but, obviously, if they don’t think they exist, then they don’t think they can exist in our world).

[@hlantian7563]

​@@nickolasmelonballer I'm pretty sure my beliefs on this are not controversial among atheists, you can very much hold both of these positions: 1. I don't believe that any of the religions we have are true. They all appear to be man-made. 2. It's possible that there's a supernatural entity around. Just like it's possible that we live in an incredibly convincing computer simulation - In no way does the possibility of this mean that we have to change our lives in any way.

[@nickolasmelonballer]

@@hlantian7563 okay, so now you’re literally just admitting that you’re projecting your beliefs onto atheism & refusing to acknowledge the stat I gave you at the bottom of my comment. 77% of atheists do not believe in ANY SPIRITUAL FORCE. That isn’t the same as criticizing specific religions. Why are you wasting both of our times as if I’m ever going to concede to this nonsense? You are an agnostic. I don’t know why you want to consider yourself and people like you to be atheists so badly. Get over it, kid.

[@hlantian7563]

@@nickolasmelonballer Feels kind of redundant, but sure: 3. I do not believe in ANY SPIRITUAL FORCE

[@ricco48219]

Religious people did not redefine agnostic to be atheist. That was atheists. Its just a very common misconception from both sides. Although the misconception started with atheists trying to coopt any non-theist as atheist for organizational purposes. If you were to see how they grab this definition from those organizational websites, it starts with people misusing it then to a point where ti became a selling point from organization to convince agnostics that they are atheists too when they are not so they can raise their support and conflate their numbers.

[@lxDarkFirexl]

What if you actively disbelieve any existing religious depiction of god, but do not rule out the possibility of transcendent causation, based upon the opinion that the answers to such questions are unknowable?

[@nickolasmelonballer]

@@lxDarkFirexl depends on the attitudes & beliefs you have in acknowledging that it is unknowable. Obviously, you said you reject all current religious depictions of God, but, for example, in the book of Isaiah God’s nature is said to be unknowable, so we could imagine certain interpretations of Abrahamic faith that take a more “agnostic” position, but this doesn’t necessarily make them actually agnostic. Likewise, for example, I have a very similar stance to yours where I reject almost all aspects of current existing faiths. Some people have told me that I am an agnostic, but I think this is a bit disingenuous as I still believe that some kind of god has to exist by virtue of things like Dyson’s worldsoul and Spinoza’s God. Also, I’m not one to reject what could be multiple-discovery: if multiple faiths opine to the existence of similar gods, I’ll take what they have in common in order to say that a god might exist like that, but not that I affirmatively believe in that god- just that it is more likely than not. So, that being said, it depends on how much you sympathize with those ideas. If you do not, and you just concede that the idea of god is an unfalsifiable claim, but that doesn’t mean you think it’s true, you might likely be an agnostic. Or, there was one concept I didn’t want to shoe-horn in this vid called “theological-noncognitivism.” Probably an oversimplification, but it’s when you think the question of God isn’t just unknowable but meaningless on the basis of language in that we can’t even understand what a god is in order to even ask the question of if we can have an opinion on his/their existence. Also, if you’re like me, then you’re just a generic theist who doesn’t subscribe to any specific religion. You might even call me a “weak theist.”

[@eslaweedguygrey]

I'm kind of hung up on the idea that thinking it's not likely that god exists makes you an atheist. I think you can recognize that there's no evidential basis to analyze the likelihood of god's existence while also conceding that if you were to use some commonsensical standard, like cosmology or some other science, the evidence would not suggest a god. Furthermore, I think being an agnostic is compatible with disbelieving in certain gods. Specific gods can be disproven, like a god that turns out to just be a celestical object, like mercury. But the idea of a god generally may remain unclear or even unknowable. Btw, your videos are always making me think, your channel may be small but I like it! But why do you dislike athiests so much? That kinda puzzles me. I think your use of reddit has made you upset with them.

[@kulpykulptington2715]

Disclaimer, I'm commenting on this before watching the video, so I may lack the specific context of your statement. Uncertainty is definitively a trait of agnosticism. Certainty is definitively a trait of atheism. What you spent 4 sentences doing was explaining how belief in a god is necessarily irrational and unprovable. Therefore, you are certain in your position that there is no God. You are an athiest.

[@eslaweedguygrey]

@@kulpykulptington2715 Do you have to prove god exists for him to exist? I may think there is no standard you could apply to find out he exists or not, but that's not a commentary on whether he exists or not. I can still say I am uncertain of his existence. As for irrational, my opinion isn't reflected in the opinion of the hypothetical person my comment refers to. I don't know whether scientific data supports a god or not. I just believe you can hold the opinion that it does not while still being an agnostic. I feel like anyone who says anything more than "I don't know if there is a god" is an atheist in this view, which seems... uncharitable? I think it's more complicated than that. And personally, I don't think I am certain that there is no god. Thank you for responding to me.

[@ricco48219]

I understand you may not be one of them but have you SEEN how a lot of them behave? They are essentially anitreligious fundamentalists. Yea you can classify them as Reddit atheist type. But there are a lot of them and you can see this by online group membership and how those groups behave. He also detailed why he doesn’t like them in a recent video if you didn’t see it. But yea. The hard part is where is your credence / confidence toward or against the proposition “God exists” I would say 50/50 is pure agnostic. Up to 75%/25% is agnosticism with a lean. After that I would say you have a belief. Just to keep it simple. Because if you believe God exists more likely than not, it may or may not be a belief. You can say 75% is a strong lean maybe. Or 80% is a belief w/e. But to at I’m like 75% sure God exists and say you don’t believe in God seems wrong as well. And vice versa. Belief is not a knowledge claim but is still something that needs justification as it has reasoning for it be it good or bad. There are a few logical issues with defining atheism as lack of a belief. But a big one is that if atheism is lack of belief, then someone can believe God is more likely to exist than not, but not have a belief in God, say 70/30, 60/40 and still be an atheist.

[@jerrylong6238]

Yeah, I dislike him thinking he can tell me what I am, or what I know or believe. I have called myself an atheist all my life 76 years so far. And never thought of calling myself agnostic. I don't believe a god exists because as you also said it is unknowable. So, I'm an atheist but do not claim to know a god does not exist somewhere in this boundaryless universe, I am still open minded if someone shows me proof a god does exist, I will no longer be an atheist. But since words have no intrinsic meaning, only usages it is more or less just a matter of opinion to me. He can use the word the way he thinks it works best and I can do the same thing. I believe the important thing here is as long as the people using the word agree on its usage everything will work out fine. But he comes in all smug, acting like he is the world's authority on word usages and that just hit me in the wrong way. As you mentioned it seems like he has something against atheist, maybe an atheist stole his girlfriend or something.