The Dimensional Shifter Debate

[@StevieBlunderReal]

update i got blocked

[@pokefabri]

Skipping a turn doesn't tend to be a good design, specially when "a turn" is all you get to play usually

[@thephilosophyminor]

You’re thinking of heat wave my boy You can still play under shifter

[@pokefabri]

@@thephilosophyminor Depends of the deck, a lot can't play without the GY or their plays have a much lower ceiling while losing resources for a comeback next turn. Heat Wave hits more stuff and isn't healthy either, but shifter has the bonus of being playable turn 0 unlike other floodgates. (not making it a shifter vs heat wave, both are bad for the game, not letting someone play defeats the entire purpose of.... a game)

[@zsatroof5219]

​@@thephilosophyminor a lot of deck can't play under shifter without just wasting resources to not get an actual end board

[@N3XTREVOLUTION]

@@thephilosophyminor I'm playing virtual world goblin biker and under shifter I can't legally activate any of my cw cards so no I can't play.

[@TheZCACK]

@pokefabri I agree shifter isn't good for the longevity of the game, but we need it now. Going 1st is way too strong right now. Konami is working on this by bringing in new hand traps that only work for going 2nd (Mulcharmy) I'm sure when konami feels going 2nd is more "fair" they will consider hitting d shifter

[@crusaderpenguin5326]

Talking about the floodgates themselves is the wrong point of discourse. It’s not a “skill issue” when your opponent can play through 2-3 handtraps and still make a board that doesn’t let you play the game. I don’t like cards that lock the opponent out of playing (D-Shifter, Droll, Dark Ruler, etc.) but the issue is much deeper. The issue is that modern decks are so powerful and so good at playing through single target disruptions that they create boards that are almost impossible to break without the usage of unfair cards. Basically, it’s “either I stop you from playing the game completely or you stop me from playing the game completely”. Sorry to say but unless the power level and resilience of decks drops significantly, floodgates and unfair board breakers are gonna stay.

[@thephilosophyminor]

Based on

[@HYDEinallcaps]

Yes, it is. Skill issue, adapt, git gud.

[@crusaderpenguin5326]

@@HYDEinallcaps Ah of course. Then surely, as a matter of skill, you will just be able to play around the D-Shifter and prepare your deck for it? Since you're so much more skillful then me? I mean with your advance game knowledge, clearly Shifter should pose no problem to you! See how this argument works against you?

[@tame1773]

​@@crusaderpenguin5326You can try to adapt to your opponents board and plays with engine peices, making gameplay at least happen. Floodgates have 0 gameplay beside 'the out'.

[@crusaderpenguin5326]

@@tame1773 I see what you're saying, but let me see if I can get my point across better. There are tons of rogue/tier 2 strategies that are far less resilient. Far fewer 1-card starters, and the starters they have are less impactful. Because of that, they have less room for non-engine because they have to run more engine, resulting in fewer handtraps and boardbreakers in their deck. As a result, maybe they draw 1 to 2 handtraps as opposed to 2 to 3, and they don't have the luxury of trying to break a board with their engine cards. Most meta decks can easily play through 1 handtrap, so if you're a rogue deck and you draw exactly 1 handtrap/bb you're basically screwed UNLESS the card you have is super impactful, like a D-Shifter, Dark Ruler, Droll, etc. Again, I don't like these cards, but unless meta decks are weakened to the point where they can be sufficiently countered by fewer pieces, I don't think floodgates and cheap breakers can go away lest it result in an even greater power discrepancy than what we have now.

[@trueacolyte]

My problem with shifter is that once it resolves it’s un-interactable. At least with something like macro cosmos I can use back row-hate cards to remove it, I can go into Knightmare phoenix or S:P to get rid of it or use cards in engine to get rid of it. I can’t do shit about shifter except squirm and piss

[@cbr274]

Its only viable counters are limited as well. Cbtg (which does nothing against it going second), or gamma which is already limited to 1. Horribly designed card

[@Manuelbacon40]

Its a great card ,stop using the graveyard as unlimited resource

[@cbr274]

@@Manuelbacon40 So that you can use your banished zone as an unlimited resource? Floo, Kash, Ritual Beast lol

[@Manuelbacon40]

@@cbr274 i dont play those decks lol but im not constantly crying about 1 card that is a double edged sword

[@Dragonzord571]

​@@Manuelbacon40Such a piss take.

[@N3XTREVOLUTION]

We have great grave disruption like the bystials and dd crow which are healthy, then we have another floodgate turn skip in shifter. This isn't a debate.

[@solobugg5087]

Exactly, you can have answers to gy decks that are healthy and aren't just lazy card design that goes "no gy at all"

[@jayku1624]

Great card design, variety of advantages for the decks using them in multiple ways. Shifter is either an end your turn button or a card that means nothing cause the victims deck can play through it

[@RazielTheUnborn]

"We have Bystials" That hits only light and darks therefore only affects a third of the games attributes when we had a fire format for a year. Yeah, very helpful. D. D. Crow only hits one card when metas decks, hell, sub-rogue decks can dump 10 - 15 cards through Crow and still pop off multiple effects. These cards are not answers if even rogue can play through them because of how much gas the graveyard gives these days. Stop the cope just because you hate Shifter.

[@N3XTREVOLUTION]

@@RazielTheUnborn that's the point, you get rewarded by hitting key cards your opponent needs not just hitting everything. What you want is an absolute hit to everything so just floodgates. But meta can plan through floodgates, rogue and casual decks can't. If I'm on something like plunder, vaalmonica, lightsworn shifter is an autowin as in "no Yu-Gi-Oh is being played"

[@TheRealJohnux]

​@@N3XTREVOLUTIONbro literally explained that hitting "key cards" is not enough with dd crow and bystials. Reading comprehension not the strong suit of yugioh Players.

[@obiesenpai3869]

Tenpai would not be useless without Shifter. Prior to the limit of Sangen Summoning they would still be able to kill you instantly without drawing Shifter.

[@billnye6291]

You can't fix bad game design with more bad game design. Every card that prevents game mechanics or applies a lingering effect for the rest of the turn or longer should not exist on principle. Konami needs to fix the going 2nd problem by changing the way they design archetypes not by printing cards that just change who goes 1st but grants them a BP on top.

[@ecthelionv2]

Sadly nothing less than scorched earth/reboot would fix this. With how YGO game design is basically power creep upon power creep and meta defining upon meta defining thing.

[@billnye6291]

@@ecthelionv2 I don't think so. Obviously the floodgates would need banning. But I think it's entirely possible to design decks that are stronger than what currently exist but also play better going 2nd with just engine cards. Then if they modify what end boards looks like to allow that kind of play to be possible they're in the money. I doubt they will ever go this far but I think it's possible.

[@HadesGamesolosgowverseandkrato]

Yugioh is a game where the gameplay of all decks boils down to summon a bunch of monsters If im the one to spam out monsters first My cards, I spent 15 mins summoning then can negate your effects Yugioh is really just a game of dice with extra steps where the winner, Is just who can win the coin toss

[@billnye6291]

@@HadesGamesolosgowverseandkrato while that does happen often saying that that's what the game always boils down to is a reflection of your skill level.

[@HadesGamesolosgowverseandkrato]

There's little skill involvement In turn based games like chess skill comes from your abilty to predict and plan ahead Right? In yugioh Pretty much anybody can win given they play the right cards and know the basic combo lines I can be the most normie dude No understanding of anything If im playing snake eyes and my opponent is a champion 6 times over but uses duel monster era dark magician deck I win, My deck is better Skill didt matter In smash brothers for instance I would still lose to a pro player in smash 4 even if they played ganondorf and me bayo because despite my character being better There's a skill element In yugioh, If you have the better character you just win Because yugioh lacks a skill function, Because everything happens in one turn to two turns And it's just using a preset combo line with little interaction

[@obiesenpai3869]

Being forced to play without a resource is not good game design. Floodgates in general aren't good game design.

[@BlitzkriegOmega]

Nothing feels shittier than being told you're not allowed to play the game.

[@jayku1624]

I think certian floodgates should exist, i think stun is best when you have to work to beat it

[@jerp1994]

Capitalism isn’t good game design because it forces us to play without resources

[@neonoah3353]

Yugioh in general isnt good game design.

[@kingcobb4712]

stun is fun

[@user-oq9jw7hb2g]

The problem is the banished zone is becoming a resource too in newer decks like kash and floo. So you set up your resources and recursion and deny your opponent theirs with no downsides. Im ok with decks like exo sisters havin it but floo n kash are just stupid game design that breaks shifter.

[@yardship]

to add onto this, banished zone needs to be an actual zone on the playmat. banished is such a resource that it's weird that it's some side area

[@donaxygo]

yeah. When stevie was saying about ritual beast being fair because they don't use their grave i was losing my shit. They abuse the banished zone as if it was another gy, AND THEY CAN ABUSE THE REGULAR GRAVE (ehm ehm, Protos) UNDER SHIFTER, but hey they deserve to have a floodgate handtrap right?

[@Leosch633]

@@donaxygo if every deck of the format interacts favourably with the banished zone shifter will be absolutely useless.

[@donaxygo]

@@Leosch633 that's sorta the direction we're talking in card design I feel

[@user-oq9jw7hb2g]

@@Leosch633 it's supposed to stop resource accumulation and recursion for BOTH players by 'removing from play' cards sent to the warehouse 'GY'. TF is the the point if they start printing archetypes that uses the banished zone as new and improved exclusive warehouse?? While it's ok in exo sister n madolche, shifter becomes too unfair in decks like floo n kash imo (which were both mistakes to print).

[@flackenstien]

There are a million different ways to interrupt your opponent playing from the Graveyard, and a million more they can come up with. A sacky lingering (FOR TWO TURNS) floodgate hand trap does not have to be one of them.

[@gamakujira64e23]

GGYGO is 100% correct, as much as I hate to admit it

[@thephilosophyminor]

Here’s the thing, if you play a deck, you need to know the strengths and weaknesses of the deck. Do you have plays going first, or are you better off going second? Does your deck lose to nib? Does your deck lose to board breakers? Does your deck lose to shifter? Does your deck lose to droll? Can you play through other interruptions? These are things that are going to happen in a real match against a real opponent. How many non engine can you fit? Does your non engine need to protect your plays or stop the opponent’s plays? If you are not asking yourself these questions during deck building and just crying “SHIFTER IS SO TOXIC MY DECK LOSES TO IT HURDUR” then you are the problem.

[@zsatroof5219]

This is an insane take because you can just say this for almost any banned card and just say build around it

[@Deadly-Shunpo]

Jesse Kotton had the exact take, and it’s literally the one post he regrets. Don’t be that guy.

[@thephilosophyminor]

@@zsatroof5219 shifter is not banned bro

[@thephilosophyminor]

@@Deadly-Shunpo I’m not Jesse Kotton

[@zsatroof5219]

@@thephilosophyminor I'm not saying shifter is banned I'm saying you can put any card that is banned in this argument that is a testament to how strong shifter is

[@SkyllerSY]

Shifter is just maxx c for bad decks. But they should ban it anyway

[@Baoberry5]

Those bad decks are slowly getting better

[@Nanachiiky]

Except its just as good in the good decks, so its just maxx c without card draw being its main draw

[@PolaristhePure]

Rit beast, kashtira, floo, & tenpai were not bad decks in their time. I would argue shifters existence kneecaps more reasonable non meta decks, like salad galaxy ba, than it does elavate decks.

[@TheZCACK]

@SkyllerSY I wouldnt consider vanquish soul or ritual beast bad decks...

[@xinkai2392]

Saying shifter should stay is literally the same logic as saying maxxc should stay

[@thephilosophyminor]

What

[@TheRealJohnux]

No.

[@cheesycheese7100]

I don't really mind either

[@flackenstien]

I think Shifter is unironically worse for the game. I'd rather play under Maxx "C" than Shifter. Maxx "C" you can atleast think and use your skill as a player to determine how to move forward. The only option you have to consider with Shifter is to end your turn.

[@xinkai2392]

@@flackenstien I can see that argument but unfortunately that is not what most of the people in this community think

[@darkrai49874]

Tear was the reason I started playing Gravekeepers and never looked back. Just activate necrovalley and stare at them

[@Red_jupiter21]

Shifter is not necessary.

[@thephilosophyminor]

No but it’s based

[@alexanderbatterbee8369]

Definitely not

[@officialregirock4021]

Holy shit long-haired farfa is cursed

[@andrewroy9263]

I also love shifter. *slides my banish archetypes out of view*

[@magmapagliaesopravvalutato6838]

So your argument for shifter not being bad is other stuff is equally bad? Shifter gives an unfair advantage to one kind of deck. Sure, it raises the winrate of some rogue decks, but that’s at the cost of the winrate of many other rogue decks. If you played any rogue deck that uses the gy you would understand.

[@handlebar4520]

"Maxx C keeps combo decks in check" aaah argument

[@FakeHeroFang]

I'm sure that one guy still playing Zombies at their locals, a famously GY centric deck, really loves it when their opponent drops Shifter in the standby phase. I'm sure that they didn't try to jump off of a bridge after the round was over.

[@TheZCACK]

@FakeHeroFang so Konami should change the banlist for that 1 guy? What about everyone else playing meta and losing to die rolls?

[@TheZCACK]

@magmapagliaesopravvalutato6838 Shifter helps players that lose the die roll. Going 1st in yugioh right now is too strong that's why konami is releasing the mulcharmy cards

[@magmapagliaesopravvalutato6838]

That’s clearly wrong, shifter is an incredible and even more oppressive card going first. If you want to help gnd you print either cards like evenly matched, only good g2nd, or like super poly and droplet, which are mjch better g2nd but have applications g1st. You always want to draw shifter in your starting hand, it is always the best card in your deck if you’re playing it (and your opponent isn’t).

[@Bigtoe65]

Imperial order is a necessary evil because of these powerful decks with really strong spells.

[@zsatroof5219]

I mean it's just not around because every deck in a competitive scene will just run it it'll be mystic mine 2

[@Bigtoe65]

@@zsatroof5219 what if imperial order was worded in a way that only 3 relevant decks could play it at full power

[@zsatroof5219]

@@Bigtoe65 it would depend because people will still go out of their way to play it and just put in like 3 dust tornado so they can have a chance to just pop it on their own turn while denying their opponents turn albeit inconsistently

[@faiyus6533]

The problem is lingering effect, since they can't be interacted with unless you have the out the moment it is activated. I feel like continous floodgate like skill drain is more balanced. It sucks, but at least I could draw or prepare an out rather than need to have the out the moment the card is activated.

[@kenja0685]

Shifter shutting down the GY isn't my biggest issue with it. My biggest issue is how Shifter shuts down a lot of handtraps, board breakers, and interactions because I'm not allowed to even attempt to send cards to the GY to resolve important effects. Veiler, Droll, Ghost Ogre, D.D. Crow, Droplet, Herald of the Abyss are some very relevant ones that come to mind. Maxx C if you're in MD. The card reads the future like Gozen, TCBOO, Rivalry did. It's just not fun to lose your ability to interact with your opponent because it feels like it's hitting strays for no reason. And because of that, those handtraps and board breakers are just going to be naturally weaker and not in consideration for some formats or strategies. Like imagine if a Banish deck just had a Miscellaneousaraus clause on it. That's what it feels like.

[@yamine_Q_ray]

this is the thing that is actually say is ban worthy about shifter. like i want to see what would happen if we had a rule change where you can still send to GY as cost even under macro cosmos. cause personally while i do think shifter even without the hypothetical rule change as time goes on shifter becomes more of something that denies follow up like how spright plays thru shifter instead of something like something that auto wins against decks like how things have just become naturally been resistant to thngs like nib and droll

[@generalistvibe3279]

I’ve been thinking on this for a while because Shifter is like a mosquito. It exists as part of the ecosystem that is the game, but it’s a terrible part of it. I personally would like to see a hand trap of some kind (monster or trap) that acts as a forbidden droplet for the GY. Something that can mass target, and prevent activated effects in the GY from resolving or being able to activate that turn. That way it answers engine and extenders, and couldn’t be used as a Called By/Crossout for other hand traps.

[@Finalslashes]

Just max c its max c

[@ll01dm]

I don't like the way of talking to people(I'm talking about the twitter thread) I feel like you should disprove on merit of the idea and not just I'm better than you, so I'm right. Also, I really feel like this is a problem in the yugioh community. "I don't like your opinion, so I'm going to over react and insult you "

[@Solaris_XT]

Any card that flat outs let's one player not play the game isnt healthy. You can argue if its necessary but its just flat out not fun to lose immediately because of 1 card

[@thephilosophyminor]

You’re thinking of heat wave my boy You can still play under shifter

[@cbr274]

⁠@@thephilosophyminor you can still set monsters under heat wave bud. Just play a flip deck 👍

[@thephilosophyminor]

@@cbr274 sounds like a skill issue if your deck gets bodied by 1 card 😂

[@Solaris_XT]

@thephilosophyminor some decks literally can't play under shifter like zombies and pendulum. Really don't get why you shifter defenders keep bringing up that it's only 1 card. Do you think Maxx C is a fair card? After all you can play around that too right?

[@cbr274]

@@thephilosophyminor exactly, just play normal monsters and you can special summon all you want

[@telepathicdragon]

downvoted for liking shifter

[@gravethestampede3454]

A bunch of decks that rely on Shifter would die without it you say? Well yeah, that's the idea. Don't go threatening me a with good time.

[@autobotstarscream765]

Will they free Tearlament so Snake-Eye can have a worthy opponent on its own GY spam terms?

[@FruitMonstersTCG]

Fruit Monsters does not support Shifter.

[@DaShikuXI]

No card should turn off an entire game mechanic without either a significant cost or being highly vulnerable. Imagine playing a shooter and suddenly your opponent just casually turns off your guns or your movement for a whole round.

[@Manuelbacon40]

Stop building gy decks you acting like top decking shifter doesnt make you auto lose if you dont get it on your opening hand

[@sparda191]

@Manuelbacon40 It doesn't matter if they draw it going second, the example they gave in the comment is to imagine that for a shooter the response to an OP weapon is to create an ability to turn off all guns and movements for a round, instead of just nerfing the gun that's the problem. People out here saying shifter is good for the game because end boards are too strong, but never admit that we have like 20 board breakers we can play as well as other cards to interupt the opponent building the end board. You can play into it, break it or even stop it from being built, but you cannot even try to interact with the shifter, which lasts for 2 turns if they activate it on their turn. You want to advocate for shifter being in the game then bring back gamma to 3 and give us another card to stop shifter and in golden if they draw it and I can't stop it then GG, I am fine with that. But right now, gamma is at 1, and crossout and called by are only usable in your turn, so you can not negate it if they start with shifter in their turn.

[@prl4122]

⁠@@Manuelbacon40bro stop saying the same stupid thing as tho you’re making a good argument. It’s like someone saying “Imperial order is fair because you can just stop building decks that use spells” The same way 90% of decks use spells 90% of decks also use the grave. We get it you don’t actually like playing yugioh and interacting with your opponent you just like using cards that completely shut them down without you even needing to put thought into it. You shot fun shifter and hope your opponent scoops

[@Manuelbacon40]

@@prl4122 stop crying and stop using the gy if you dont want to lose to shifter

[@Manuelbacon40]

@@sparda191 lmao you acting as if shifter is the end all be all if that is so jesse would have lost the ycs and the dude that was playing memento at nats would have lost that match both didnt lose to shifter

[@WPFreeinternet]

People play decks that can play under Shifter because other hand traps are just too low impact. If you go plus when you summon a card to the field then go plus again when it goes to the graveyard, maybe people will gravitate towards high impact cards.

[@neogalactic1195]

I like GGYGOs content and personality, genuinely he's a great dude. He just has bad yugioh takes which i choose to ignore

[@Yogy19]

I'm curious as to where you draw the line with Barrone and Maxx C. Because you could argue that those two cards make many decks better and playable, but you don't want them in the game and yet think that D. Fissure is fine. So I want to know why you think one is fine but not the rest.

[@idkdontask7142]

Ggygo really wins a few regionals and thinks he is Jessee Kotton

[@EDTheOneable]

Assuming that Shifter lovers care about "doing well" is pretty funny in itself. These type of players just like the feeling of playing the easy win condition and that satisfies them more than actually winning.

[@TheJpop617]

They are called scrubs

[@EDTheOneable]

@@TheJpop617 but that feel when you realize that being a "scrub" is a lot less cringe than being a competitive meta slave who looks down on anything that is not what the "pro players" are playing. Go outside, breathe air, do better 👍

[@gamakujira64e23]

@@EDTheOneable you can’t tell someone else to touch grass when you unironically use the term “meta slave”

[@RazielTheUnborn]

I don't use Shifter for a win con. I use it to actually play the game if I am stuck going second. Going first is still too powerful because of the ludicrous amount of power creep in the game. We went from formats you needed, at most 6 hand traps and maybe another 3 to 6 board breakers to compete to if you aren't running 20 hand traps, you're auto losing in just a year or two. Only the newest of archetypes can do that, and not everyone likes those archetypes to begin with.

[@sparda191]

​@@RazielTheUnbornso the answer is an uninteractable 2 turn floodgate.... yes let's punish the people who actually want to play the game soo much they sell their kidney because the 4 decks that can actually use shifter can't win any other way.

[@no_one_consequential]

As aggressive GGYGO is, he is right. At its core, Shifter is an unfun card to deal with. Its at the point where either Shifter needs to be banned, or bring Gamma back to 3.

[@shitaishiro]

exactly, if they want to keep shifter we should be allowed to have cards that stop it.

[@Unknownz000]

​@@shitaishiroyeah but it just becomes maxx c at that point. Maxx c is in master duel and you have 3 ash 2 called by 1 crossout and 2 gammas and its still the most busted card in the game and you sometimes just dont draw the out. 3 gamma 1 called by isnt gonna do it. Especially when crossout doesnt work unless you run shifter as well, which most decks dont want to. 4 cards in your 40 to 60 card deck isnt gonna make shifter fair. Card in of itself is a game design problem that should just be banned

[@no_one_consequential]

@Unknownz000 This is obviously the ideal situation, but if we can't have the ideal we might as well go for a tit-for-tat to nudge the powers that be towards the ideal

[@shitaishiro]

@@Unknownz000 id rather have it banned too but as the other guy said, if we can’t get rid it then we need to have answers to for it.

[@TheZCACK]

They will probably hit shifter once going 2nd is more "fair". Releasing the mulcharmy cards is the 1st big step towards that

[@Luminousplayer]

I personally dont mind shifter except that the condition of not having monsters to activate it to me is ass because its a dead card after the first turn, I think we need a better designed shifter-like card.

[@thephilosophyminor]

Based

[@Finalslashes]

Yea yea yea I want a card that shuts off an entire strategy to be even less fair

[@t8ersalad158]

I literally was playing with my friend the other day in some casual matches and one of his main decks he played is a shifter deck. I chose my Ghoti deck to duel that deck instead of a deck that auto loses to shifter. He proceeds to get pissy. I get pissed back stating "I didn't want to auto lose if you draw that card, I wanted a good game". My point is that all pressure and skill expression is on the opposing player and the player using shifter has no risk/reward.

[@absoul112]

I’d say Baronne was fine before Little Knight was released. To get on topic, why not just make more cards have Floo style effects that banish when they leave the field?

[@absoul112]

Also I guess I got a hot take, floodgates (the non lingering kind) are fine conceptually. Konami just needs to rein them in somewhat.

[@lit_wick]

I started playing again during tear. And it was fucking tight. Crystal beast was like a silver bullet against tear. In archetype field spell search had tear players scooping. Was fun.

[@Finalslashes]

Funny how they extend with a miny crystal beast engine

[@jacobwoodard818]

Well I would agree if not for decks like Tearlament, Snake-Eyes, Dark World. A deck like Vanquish Soul or Marincess doesn't need Shifter to play against decks like Voiceless Voice and Unchained they just need not f**k up as bad as Meguro did against Jesse Kotton when the obvious choice was to pop Arvata with Princess at some point so they could make Eternity. Whether a person is good at the game does still scale with amount of mistakes a Yu-Gi-Oh player makes and from that point if people are just using Shifter because they can I can see why GGYGO said what he did. Its because some people aren't getting the experience they can get from playing against beatable matchups without Shifter. Because they aren't playing board breakers against decks like Voiceless Voice in place of Shifter they aren't getting the experience of how to play these lower power decks without their auto win button. A skilled Floowandereez player playing the Morganite build of the deck will dominate a deck like Voiceless Voice if they don't brick. In such a scenario cards like Shifter are excuses to not have to get good. Before anyone says anything I watched N3shs' video featuring that match and he said the exact same thing I did but that was the single biggest screw up Meguro had and if not for that mistake the 2 little mistakes Meguro made wouldn't have mattered.

[@pashlyn]

Bro i play one shifter in one deck like let me live please

[@TruVibezz]

shifter is a dogshit card lmao. barrone is not comparable.

[@TruVibezz]

tear should never have been in the game. doesn't validate shifter. tear actually made me stop playing yugioh lmfao.

[@autobotstarscream765]

Baronne is AIDS in Tenpai, Shifter is AIDS period, Snake-Eye is the new Tear and needs to go already.

[@konstantinoskoutlas7608]

*Responding to GGYGO* *I decide to play shifter in every deck i own no matter the synergy or hindrance it provides to prove a point.* Skill issue + cry about it + fuck your gy reliant deck + fuck your first turn.

[@Luminousplayer]

After thinking about it, I feel like a big reason why shifter is so annoying is because konami has been designing decks to take 6 steps to reach the end of their combo, this makes it obligatory to start with the lesser monsters that more often than not are worthless as monsters and just serve a search purpose or summon from deck. Think of how many stepping stones there are in decks today that need to be taken just to reach a competent endboard, your small monsters needing to proc or reach the graveyard in most decks are what causes shifter to feel so oppressive. One of the only "searchers" that is also a decent monster on their own currently is diabellstar, most others are jist a means to an end.

[@redhalfdragon]

I mean, all we need as proof that Tear was the strongest deck of all times is the fact that it is one of the most restricted archetypes, more than any other decks out there and we are still seeing new variants of it that compete at tournament level. Years have passed, we are in a different tier 0 format and Tear players are founding new ways to do unfair shit that can compete. All of their named cards are limited, the central figure of their chain is banned, their support cards are banned and the deck still finds its way in tops. If you ever needed proof full power Tear is the strongest deck ever made, think about that, these peoples aren't playing with a hand tied behind their back, these peoples are winning with the scraps of a deck and somehow those scraps are better than most real decks.

[@connermorgan9223]

*Being upset that the game is fundamentally changing* -Goat/Edison players: First time?

[@erikfigueroa6390]

This wouldn’t be an issue if decks didnt rely on gy as a second hand. Spright can function without it, same with purrely (unless you only have black cats 🤣) , why dont we have more decks like these?

[@Elystal]

shifter is one of the most toxic designs, it wins games by deck choice and not skill or even draw luck. the next time there's an actual good shifter deck cough cough malice cough, if it's still not banned then the meta will be even more insufferable than snake-eye meta

[@jacobwoodard818]

Honestly the biggest obstacle to banning Shifter is Konami struggles to make combo decks as healthy as Ryzeal. We've had Dark World, Tearlament, and Snake-Eye and almost every deck in recent years has been liked or at least not hated by most people except for them. It isn't really a bad thing for the grave to be a extra hand till a deck makes the grave as a resource abusive to people wanting to play decks that aren't in like the top 30-40 decks. Most people don't hate Voiceless or Swordsoul(without Protos). Awhile ago we had decks like like Branded and Spright(Which Spright if you used hand traps on Gigantic and Sprind they might have some interruptions but it was never like we couldn't stop them.) but neither one of them was unbeatable without Shifter and fast-forward a little bit and now we went from any rogue deck can beat any deck without Shifter pretty consistently if we try hard enough to not being able to do that the moment decks that are several times more poorly designed than Ryzeal is exist. If the general consensus is that decks like Ryzeal and Voiceless Voice aren't hated by most people then why not try to design every deck about as well as them instead of giving us Tear and Block Dragon 2.0. It doesn't make sense to make cards that you know are going to be hated by almost everyone and loved by very few just to get people who have been playing the same deck for 5-7 years to buy products instead of people buying products because they love Yugioh. Maybe we need more decks like Blue-Eyes and Unchained to get people invested in the game instead of limiting cards like Branded Fusion and not the real problem cards instead.

[@ecthelionv2]

I think this is more of a massive problem with YGO game design in general. Where konami just makes busted cards upon busted cards that will necessitate 'Skip a turn/can't play' unless your deck can play under it (Kash, Floo, etc.)

[@shien-ryu4395]

OK might sounds weird, but Shifter biggest problem is that it can be activated during your turn as well and you can otk your opponent under it. I tested Primoredial Spirals recently that can abuse Shifter like nothing, but they can't otk easily. It felt fair as a side deck only card for going seconds and kinda neccesery tbh to even have a change to fight back when not going first. Most modern good decks just ignoring completely single interaction handtraps, you either have to run 15+ non engine, something that most decks can't affort, or run something like Shifter and hope

[@adamsherwani3971]

7:24 it's almost like tear 0 did the same thing shifter does, except shifter atleast let's you play. Where as tear just said no to any interaction

[@nuetella9764]

I play zombie decks, this thing lets me do nothing I hate this card

[@punklingyt]

Err...Rit Beast feels like a weird example because its one of a few decks that can mainboard Shifter since it has multiple combo lines it can do while ignoring the banishment and even move cards back to the Grave with things like Ulti Cannahawk, and even new Lara getting auto activated by Shifter.

[@Shrimp4Gura]

Playing ritual beast, i found that people hate the triple macro cosmos i run in the main more than the shifters.

[@marthsinclair3796]

Honest question, how does Madolche make use of Shifter? I've played the deck since 2013 but am currently only following Master Duel, to my knowledge Madolche doesn't directly play from grave but basically all the in engine breaking and disruption requires grave setup. Graveyard floodgates seem like a hard stop for the deck.

[@ShadowMasterLuigi]

Madolche doesn't do that well with shifter since it can't make use of hootcake that needs to banish something from grave, Anjelly ends up banished so it can't be used to set up any of the boards grave interactions, and the extra deck monsters become completely useless since every one of them requires sending something back from grave the best you can really do with Shifter is hope you can get to Messengelato with a beast so you can set up Promenade, Dessert, or both since they can interact with your field instead of grave

[@Sleepy0173]

It is time to have a different slaughter list that deals with the most abusive "GY too stronk" cards that'd justify Shifter, then also hit Shifter. The GY as a resource is something the game would be missing out on if a single hand-trap can just shut the game down for what nowadays is half to most of the game's duration. I understand wanting to update the threat of D.D. Crow but this goes overboard and is not even as splashable either.

[@ChainAsh]

On one hand the last like 4 tier 1 decks have just been too powerful to rely on like imperm and an ash to have a good enough impact on the game while a single shifter can be enough, on the other hand shifter makes a lot of decks (at every tier) just too weak and either limits their plays to a single "ok" boss monster or a board of 2-3 extenders that can't extend under it. Imo you just gotta deck build with it in mind and put in a line or two that you can go into without just skipping your turn. I play drytron a lot and shifter while being a problem for me doesn't completely end my turns AND actually justifies me playing rastaban.

[@mateofontanez5177]

I'm perfectly fine with shifter being gone if arise-heart comes back to 1. It's something much easier to deal with since all generic omni-negates are mostly gone. We see now a lot more ways to out the card which i think is very reasonable to bring arise-heart back if shifter was banned for some reason and with the two new decks in crossover breakers using the banished cards as well.

[@tomdoetsch8603]

Samsara D Lotus carrying on the Will of D!

[@Citizen_Nappa23]

Clearly ppl have forgotten dimension fissure and macro cosmos exhists if someone wanted to lockdown the graveyard they don't need dimension shifter to begin with.

[@dimensional9536]

I think it's important to have it in the game but it does need a semi limit to say the least

[@bchavez149]

I like that he's a floodgate, I like that hes a hand trap, I like that it tells meta decks to eat shit... but I don't like that he also hurts my shitty decks that I play for fun. Limiting it isn't necessary, just put Called by The Grave to 2 or 3 ffs, I hate having to draw the 1 of just to beat a 3 of, unfair odds.

[@sstarfury4068]

I remember when VS came out, I played against it one day with my pure Scareclaw deck. It has been recorded just how salty I was the moment shifter was activated. I hate that damn card and you can see my reaction to it in the video. Vanquish Soul. I was salty about VS because of that card.

[@looneyloonatic]

Shifter is necessary, it’s part of the game and can be prepared for.

[@EddieSmyth-oh7fu]

Me brain worm 🔥

[@KurayamiGGEZ]

Shifter locks your opponent out of a basic mechanic; the graveyard. All mechanics need to work at all times. If certain decks needs Shifter to function they shouldn't be in the game.

[@camrensharpe]

So its okay, when u have 8 disruptions, but when we have shifter, its a issue

[@otterfire4712]

Yes because that person has to commit to build up to that point. That kind of end board is only really obtainable when uninterrupted. Dark Ruler No More and Droplet exist to out these problems. Additionally, they should ban Promethian Princess because she's insanely annoying once she gets into a cycle

[@camrensharpe]

@@otterfire4712 8 disruptions are fair..that's wild to me

[@MiscGaming08]

​@@camrensharpe both are bad lol

[@otterfire4712]

@@camrensharpe I'd much rather see an end board of interactions than see an opponent drop shifter. For one, there's only a scant few responses to shifter, some of which only work if it's your turn or you've set the card up, some of which are also on the banlist making them harder to come by to answer Shifter. With 8 disruptions, there's still a chance that they misuse their disruption, giving you room to crawl through and break it, at which point the deck that built 8 disruptions runs out of gas and can't properly recover. It's hard to mess up Shifter, not to mention the shitty act of using monster reborn to open the grave up again to use a follow up shifter. To boot, there are several decks that are unencumbered by Shifter's effect and sometimes enabled by it, making most other decks unable to build a board to contest the super charged deck. Honestly, with Maliss coming out, they should just ban Shifter. It's yet another archetype that can just abuse Shifter and allow them to have a one sided board builder.

[@Unholygrail-j4c]

Decks shouldnt have 8 disruptions, its all bad game design.

[@Ulquiorra_Cifer]

i'd take baronne anyday of the week instead of shifter, the problem with that card is that if you go second and u don't have specifically gamma you auto lose on the spot with 80% of the decks, heck i'd take maxx C over shifter cuz at least maxx c gives you a little bit of choice and you can set a minimalist board and play on their turn

[@autobotstarscream765]

Baronne is AIDS in Tenpai, give us Savage Dragon back instead. Let Dragon Link Duelists play!

[@Ulquiorra_Cifer]

@@autobotstarscream765 i don't think tenpai is doing that good in tcg anyway so it won't be a big problem

[@autobotstarscream765]

@@Ulquiorra_Cifer So free Baronne and let Tenpai stomp all those pesky Fiendsmith Decks to be the top Deck? 😈

[@Ulquiorra_Cifer]

@@autobotstarscream765 tenpai is doing well in ocg only because they have bo1 tournaments and it has 6 copies of the roach, the deck can only otk and that's it, u can easily side against or let it go first, it ur deck can't deal with a Bayonne+ hieartic seal then it's ur issue

[@thepinms]

So shifter is fine if only bad decks are playing it?

[@thephilosophyminor]

Yes

[@autobotstarscream765]

That's the idea, make more unique Decks and less generic pile cards that rise to the top like cream.

[@AdHocWholius]

Any card designed to lock interactions in the gamestate over multiple turns isn't balanced. If shifter was 'for the rest of the current turn' instead of lasting all the way through 2 turns it would still be a banworthy card, much like every card that locks out interactions in an accessible way. The difference between it and abyss dweller is that dweller requires resources to be expended to get it on board, and the investment of extra deck space is more valuable than the main deck. You HAVE to both make the choice to include Dweller over any other card where extra deck space is extremely tight, and make the investment to summon it. I'd also point out that there are 7+ forms of commonly used back row removal, and shifter is extremely non-interactible compared to D-fissure and Macro Cosmos. Shifter remaining in the game punishes almost every deck other than the ones it directly benefits, and seldom few of those decks are in the meta at any given point. There's no question as to wether or not it should be banned, the only issue is what should go with it to bring the meta into a balanced state.

[@hoshi314]

me, an OCG player who played both decks who died to shifter and decks that thrive under shifter : "eeeeh shifter's fine, 2 is enough" also i don't think shifter is getting hit anytime soon because Maliss is coming out, maybe semi limit on TCG too? certainly not banned

[@shalucard107]

Shifter is one of those cards that everyone can have and gives players who dont have those expensive decks a shot at atleast a win.

[@fenrisnox5766]

I will not be suprised in the slightest when ggygo starts claiming the format we just had (and have kinda had for almost a year, and are still in to some degree) is one of the best. I also won't be suprised if he loves the gumbles format and thinks gumbles should be legal again

[@jonathanclark7556]

Shifter is all swag and hip bones until mAlice comes out.

[@OseiTheWarriors]

Wait, GG YGO has said the following: -Baronne is fine and if you couldn't out it it's a skill issue -A high diversity meta is BAD for the game -Tear was a great format Why do y'all care about his opinion again? At least the Shifter argument has "some" weight to it I guess...

[@funz6491]

“The worst guy you know is finally right”

[@jsahm38]

he’s right about everything but Baronne

[@ДаниилТолмачёв-ж2ы]

​@@jsahm38 disagree. Hes right bout baronne and meta

[@Finalslashes]

@@ДаниилТолмачёв-ж2ыoh boo hoo you can’t counter every single deck wa wa

[@Finalslashes]

Tear could be fun in just the mirror and nothing else but yea when your playing the strongest deck ever you can do a lot even when the opponents playing the strongest deck ever

[@codyhickman9562]

When choosing a deck I actively look for something that can abuse Shifter in the main.

[@fury374]

Im sorry guys, but i cant hold it back. I subconsciously and now knowingly like shifter decks. I play RB competitively, exosisters casually, and im looking forward to Maliss. Again im sorry, but at the same time if i draw shifter that little evil angel on my shoulder will force me to place it into my graveyard while giving you the biggest shit eating grin ive ever done.

[@guitaralex0515]

My problem with shifter is that there is no counter play going 2nd. Either bring back gamma to 3 or ban shifter

[@thephilosophyminor]

Based

[@autobotstarscream765]

They're trying to force us all to play Herald of Orange Light Decks.

[@NothingKingKN]

Handtraps that allow your non-meta rogue deck are fine. The problem is that the same cards are then used by meta Tier 0 players to rail you.

[@Stanky_Foot]

combo players when they dont run main deck/extra deck boss monsters that do something under shifter. NOOOO you cant deviate from your meta combo line for something suboptimal NOOOO YOU CANT BUILD SUBOPTIMALLY NOOOO. YOU CANT SPLASH FENRIR AND UNICORN IN YOUR DECK NOOOOOOOOOOO

[@Dragonzord571]

What about the multitude of rouge decks that lose to shifter?

[@frankieyuen9363]

It’s a needed evil droll does basically the same thing for a bunch of decks without those cards everyone just plays big combo with no draw backs

[@Finalslashes]

You can’t take most of Stevie’s points because he’s a yugituber that hates 90% of the game

[@MetaGamesGX]

Lol I love the hate on sanctifier but the blind spot on shifter.

[@dabbingtoast7743]

It’s a fucking floodgate in the form of a hand trap you can’t react to if you’re going second. It’s a terribly designed card and decks that can’t function without it shouldn’t be played.

[@Takanuvaa]

Shifter is not that strong, you basically need to draw it in your opening hand of 5, becoming a useless card if you draw it after turn 1. "it's un-interactable" yeah, just like almost everything in this game if you don't draw enough handtraps/boardwipes or the out and go second. I only accept shifter getting banned if konami stops printing so many broken GY effects and archetypes.

[@tsukamesuccess7332]

Baronne is a hard once per turn, Stevie

[@imissplugdj]

I'd be more than happy to see Shifter taken to a farm upstate once they ban Snake-Eye into unplayability.

[@yamiangelous]

I mean there are cards to "help" deal with shifter...same cards that "help" with Ash blossom and either A.there hated by the community because "nooooooooo how dare you have the 1 of to counter my hand trap that's not faaaaaaaaaaaaaair!" OR! "just have the out bro" kinda mentality. While shifter "Can" suck NGL if they made more grave hate that wasn't just a walking macro cosmos. That being said if they banned shifter they might as ban ash to because that card isn't healthy for the game state. Don't believe me? Ya'll hate 1 card starters right? Well what do you think has caused them to be needed that's right....ash because if a card can't manage to + itself against getting ash'd then why even use it?

[@TheWiseguysTCG]

GGygo is like cool....but a few times ive seen him be extremely rude for folks disagreeing. The answer is in the middle. Shifter is fine, the counters to shifter (gamma and called by) shouldn't be at 1. Leaves only bad options to answer it, or just having a theory to play through it. That's the issue. Gamma and talents being able to handle them eliminates the shotgunned shifter in dp or sp. In main, cool, talents? That's fair. The issue is the answers that are handicapped imo. But theres no need to be disrespectful over a debate especially from "pro" players.

[@TheWiseguysTCG]

PS Furwaross is going to take its place anyways and they're probably going to hit it next list if shifters still too strong.

[@hellsangel8825]

just make babooska, literally every shifter deck played rn loses to it

[@EdWuncler3rd]

babooska the king !

[@N3XTREVOLUTION]

Answer non interactive floodgates with floodgates. Fun and engaging.

[@EdWuncler3rd]

@@N3XTREVOLUTION you can link off babooska whenever needed ??

[@Solaris_XT]

Just open the ability to make 2 lvl 4's, just make sure you even have bagooska, just draw the out

[@autobotstarscream765]

We're getting a new Deck that runs Shifter _and_ Babooska.

[@EdWuncler3rd]

Unlimiting called by would go a long way

[@frankieyuen9363]

Ggygo was freaking out when baron and appo got banned because they’re ’healthy’ and you just have to ‘play through them’

[@autobotstarscream765]

So how did he do it? I remember Jesse Kotton being the King of Games and not him.

[@aoi2853]

Appo is healthy

[@autobotstarscream765]

@aoi2853 She was healthy until people figured out how to use the explosion in power creep to use App not as an end board piece, but as a shovel to push their actual infinite summon combo through any and all hand traps, one reason why Shifter and Maxx "C"/Multchummies became the only hand traps that matter, as they could be shotgunned at the start to deploy a lingering condition like Spook Doggy Dogg.

[@Finalslashes]

@@aoi2853yes the 4 negates is fair and balanced

[@aoi2853]

@@Finalslashes it's fair, you just don't know how to play the game

[@sparda191]

All lingering floodgates are bad, but shifter lasting 2 turns is the worst one, if your opponent activates it on their turn your only out is gamma which is at 1, if they activate it on your turn you could have called by and crossout for it, but thats it. Shifter is an uniteractable 2 turn lingering floodgate that stops 90 percent of decks in the game from playing. Is that really "fair" because end board is good? Because at least we have multiple board breakers and hand traps to stop the opponent, we can even try to play through and break their board. On the other hand there is no playing through shifter all resources are lost if you try to play you just lost resources for nothing since even if you can try put something facedown, in today's game all shifter decks can run through that an either otk or build too much advantage for you to have a legitimate shot at winning. Every deck that plays shifter will gain the same level of powerful endboard on their turn as the turn 1 player. So you gave them a free turn skip for them to do the same thing you're arguing against. Isn't that hypocritical? You say shifter good because end board is strong, but the decks that play shifter just build an oppressive end board with it. You're just advocating in favor of a toxic card design so that the 4 decks that use it can build the same oppressive end board you're arguing about in favor of shifter. We can reasonably say end boards should be nerfed a bit, we can talk about going second isn't good outside 2 or 3 decks, and we should work on it being better, but I can't stand in favor of toxic turn enders because konami created an ssue that they don't want to resolve any time soon.

[@FakeHeroFang]

Clearly MD has the best take. Just make it sacky by semi/limiting it, so people can get even more mad when it resolves on their opponent's first turn and they have almost zero counterplay. We fix yugioh by making it so cringe-inducing to play that people leave in droves :)

[@alexanderbatterbee8369]

Shifter not only skips turns, it invalidates 20 percent if the habs trap pool. And has zero real counter play. Far from necessary

[@YashaSkaven]

Shifter removes the graveyard as a second hand and honestly if it just had an errata that ignored zombies and cards that mention zombies I think shifter would be fine (zombies should be allowed the only deck to have gy second hand they need it)

[@ratioed1438]

Calling it now. Next tier 0 deck will be able to use both the grave and banish zone.

[@ez8195]

It's the 2 turn part that sucks the most. If it were macro for that turn I wouldn't have AS much of a problem but the fact it's the turn played and after that sucks

[@nickel-bolas951]

My personal top handtrap is Veiler. Can't beat the classics