The Dresden Files: Battle Ground by Jim Butcher Spoiler Talk

[@mikesbookreviews]

Hey bookworms! I wanted to clarify something that clearly didn't get across re: bigger villains. What I meant was after Ethniu just shrugs off a unified front such as this as if it was water on rock, I don't see how Jim can go bigger AND have a believable way our heroes can face that threat. But, as I said, Jim always finds a way and I trust him. Hope this clears that criticism up.

[@jellevanbreugel325]

great question! Was wondering to. However since Ethniu was basically a pawn for the outsiders, may'be it won't be as much a question of a bigger baddie than a smarter one? Still have the Black Council to content with, although I thought Cristo was supposed to be their inside man in the White Council? Also with Butters saying to Ethniu that it isn't her world anymore in Angel/God voice? Wouldn't surprise me if God and Harry team up against the Outsiders with Harry taking up the mantle of the Devil or something like that 🤷‍♀️

[@MrFoghorn111]

Yeah. I feel like there was unclear subtext in all the "Hoss"s that got tossed out. It's a place for an actor to bring more to the role than is on the page.

[@markwatson8714]

I'm not sure it'll be a case of bigger as such. The three main 'loose ends' I can think of would be the Black Court, the Outsiders and the Denarians. The Black Court is the only one that would seem to be a straightforward bigger fish judging by Drakul (although since it's implied he's Starborn I wonder if we'll get another good/bad/ugly team up with Harry, Drakul and Listen versus the Outsiders) and in their case they've already been nearly wiped out once before due to the mortals, and we now have the good citizens of Chicago en mass ready to believe in things that go bump in the night. The Outsiders don't need to be powerful since anyone who isn't Starborn will struggle against them. Of course, we're not entirely sure why (or who) they're so interested in Demonsreach, but with only a handful of people able to take them on effectively they don't necessarily need to be powerful, just numerous. As for the Denarians, whenever they show up the heroes usually get the help of a guy who can unmake galaxies just by thinking about it. Though given there seem to be a rather strict set of rules regarding how and when he can engage I expect Nicodemus will be looking to fight smarter rather than harder, especially now that Marcone may be on his team.

[@SeddersShots]

This question reminds me of another book series I read that has lots of characters with a variety of magical powers, the main character has the ability to freeze things and is quite good at it. But while discussing it with one of the antagonists he looks at him and asks “What would you rather have on your side, a man who can freeze things or one who can see the future” Ethniu was extraordinarily powerful, but ultimately she was just a very large hammer. Marcone summed it up nicely when they squared off, she could have come up quietly any time she wanted, struck without warning and functionally obliterated the city and any resistance. But she had to show off, she wanted everyone to know who beat them. What’s going to be bigger is someone on her level, someone with similar or even marginally lower raw power but without ego, without any sense of honor. Someone or something that quietly watches and waits and exactly when the moment arises strikes everywhere at once. He who walks beside very nearly accomplished this exact thing in the book only to be thwarted because Dresden and Thomas were able to exchange a word before Thomas became unreachable. That’s the scary enemy, and its happened twice now, the one who is happy to be subservient and useful to the point where they are trusted and have the ability to bring everything crashing down.

[@DravenDresden]

Here's what we Know for Harry's future: Book 18: Mirror Mirror - something about alternate dimension/realities. -This should also be where we get at least some information about the whole "Starborn" thing. I'd be willing to bet at least some of that is "Born into a power that helps define Fate" in some way. This would explain why they haven't told Harry about it and also why they are so fearful of him. From their point of view, Harry has sided with the monsters. If he has the power to help define Fate, that implies they might lose their power (mortal magic become less, maybe?). Book 19: Heel Turn - A lot of the old gods are professional wrestlers Book 20: ??? Book 21: ??? - It is current anticipated that Peace Talks being split as it was has extended the planned-out series by 1 book. So it's possible it is now 21 books then the BAT. Of course, Jim has also gone on record saying some other things may have also extended it. So what started at 20 could be 22. There have been interviews (convention/bookstore Q&As) where Jim has stated/hinted at Kaiju being one book. Battle Ground MIGHT fit this between the Kraken, the Jotun, and a freaking Titan. But somehow, I doubt it. Big Apocalyptic Trilogy Book 22: Stars and Stones Book 23: Hell's Bells Book 24: Empty Night We know the titles of BAT (perhaps even the exact order of titles), but not much about them... save that Jim has hinted a few things about them... 1. Ferrovax being in (at least) one of them. This is where I would put money on the aforementioned Kaiju book. 2. Given what we just saw, it seems safe to presume that Drakul will be returning for the Trilogy, as well. 3. Jim has also previously hinted that Satan himself will show up. I can't imagine which book, based on title alone, that is likely to be. ;) As has been pointed out in multiple locations, Jim has stated that all 7 Laws* will be broken. It seems to me that Harry will break the Law of Time Travel in the final book. I hope this isn't the case as using that to fix things would be incredibly hard to make it not feel cheap. An alternative breaking could happen during Mirror Mirror... and instead of actual Time Travel happening, something goes wrong and an alternate reality happens. You have asked "where do we go from here?" in terms of powerful villains. As has been pointed out already several times, the Outsiders seem to be the 'Final Boss' of the series. There's also Cowl and the Black Council. And let's not forget that Harry was kicked out of the White Council. I could see Book 20 (especially given the known title of Book 19) being where Harry is forced to defend himself from 1+ of them. My guess (if proven correct) is Gregori Cristos attacks Harry early in the book and gets killed somehow instead. The WC would feel forced to retaliate, perhaps the Merlin himself would take up arms vs Harry. That is, admittedly, a bit tin-foil hat. *7 Laws: 1. Thou Shalt Not Kill 2. Thou Shalt Not Transform Others 3. Thou Shalt Not Invade the Mind of Another 4. Thou Shalt Not Enthrall Another 5. Thou Shalt Not Reach Beyond the Borders of Life 6. Thou Shalt Not Swim Against the Currents of Time 7. Thou Shalt Not Open the Outer Gates We know #1 has happened. Repeatedly. #3 has happened TO Harry and, to an unknown degree, the entire Senior Council. It could be argued that after BG, #4 has happened. #5 is all up in Dead Beat. Harry got around the letter of the Law by using a non-human. And #7 has happened off-screen at least twice. It is believed that all 3 Walkers have either been directly summoned, or that 2 of them have and 1 managed to slip by unnoticed. This is, of course, the best case scenario. We know 1 has slipped by unnoticed, but not if it was the only 1 to do so. This leaves #2 and #6 left "Unbroken" (to our knowledge).

[@Enigmanaut]

The most shocking moment in the book: Michael dropped the F-Bomb!

[@DougTurley]

In multiple languages

[@mikesbookreviews]

Several.

[@mrxboyd9]

sometimes it needs to be said

[@calebsaenger3344]

That moment was the thing that started bringing me back down from emotional shock/adrenaline overload. It was just so unexpected and just so right

[@mitchwilliams6129]

It was the 2nd best line in the book. Murphy's one word verbal shot at Greymalhyn was the best!

[@Juanpa_SC]

This book´s MVP is Harry´s shield bracelet.

[@TristezaR]

RIP Shield Bracelet #7

[@Juanpa_SC]

@@TristezaR But next book Harry said he will have a REAL bracelet, whatever that means... Anti nuke or something?

[@pranvatgulati]

Bruh should carry a couple spares the way he burns through them no capp

[@zackcohn]

He said he wanted a new one so he could say he wanted a lab so he could make a play for the castle :)

[@Jabarjr]

@@pranvatgulati Or he should learn to have defensive energies around him like Ebenezer... Much more pro!

[@grimsnort2909]

When Molly made her entrance into the fray, I had to have my google assistant play "Welcome to the Jungle". Just imagining the opening guitar riff echoing off the Chicago buildings and everyone pausing in confusion. Really dig how the Winter Lady still uses her "One Woman Rave"

[@coyote271280]

did the same thing, I love it when authors give us a soundtrack, like in Small Favor, I played last ride of the Valkyries when Gard's chopper came into the fray. Also in World War Z (the book not the hideous movie) when the army sets up the zombie kill box in the desert, that they used The Trooper by Maiden.

[@nealhoffman7518]

A proof of how huge the action in this book is... Drakul is introduced and it just gets glossed over lol

[@nealhoffman7518]

And that Ghostbusters reference in Graceland cemetery had me laughing for 5 minutes straight

[@Mysicalgreenunicorn03]

This book was incredible I need to go back and start from book 1

[@phatpat63]

God, I hated that. So much for Harry knowing how to use necromancy against the Black Court.

[@nealhoffman7518]

Knowing how, and being able to on short notice while facing off against such powerhouses are two different things lol

[@phatpat63]

@@nealhoffman7518 He didn't even have a stray thought about it. Not one line about not being able to do it just then. You're manufacturing reasons out of thin air to rationalize it. With all the little, technical errors in these two books it's more likely that Jim just forgot that was ever a thing.

[@Enigmanaut]

"How can he go bigger than this?" Man, you don't want to challenge Jim Butcher like that. He heard you say that, and his cabin shook with the sound of his evil laughter!

[@seb24789]

This is the same Jim Butcher who wrote a series about magic romans fighting the Zerg on a dare. He'll think of something.

[@pantasticlaire3966]

He doesn’t have to get “bigger”, he just needs to get personal

[@Azreal231916]

@@pantasticlaire3966 exactly

[@Newicked]

I don't think that's going to be an issue at all. We've already seen comparable or bigger entities than Ethniu in the series. Mothers Winter and Summer anyone? Uriel?

[@UnsoberIdiot]

@@Newicked The Mothers are Bound. They can't stray outside their roles.

[@paulchase2237]

Harry's message to Odin, concerning Murphy, was my favorite scene.

[@fellipestahlmocellin8195]

I am sure McCoy will be thrilled to receive news of his grandson's engagement

[@calebsaenger3344]

That'll be interesting to see for sure. I wonder if he changed enough from the confrontation at the docks to react more maturely. Probably not.

[@engrtp0]

!

[@Yanninyree]

😂🤣😂🤣. On a serious note, after what happened to Harry’s Mother, I hope that the wedding doesn’t send McCoy completely over the edge.

[@BeyondOrdinary]

@@Yanninyree just how over the edge do you have to go after you have already killed your grandson? This was so not dealt with properly and in a bad way. Ebeneezer lost all of my respect at the end of Peace Talks. What does it say about him that he would rather kill Harry than let Harry make his own choices?

[@seb24789]

I guess he doesn't get invited to the wedding then?

[@retromancer1739]

It's okay to think that Butters and/or Marcone were the MVPs of this book, but you're wrong. Mab was the MVP of this book. Getting a peek behind the curtain at her was fascinating

[@christopherkrause11]

Absolutely. The arc she’s taking is absolutely incredible. Plus the respect Harry gained by being a competent war knight for her will change their dynamic through the end of the series

[@josephh8117]

It's a little eerie how she's becoming more likeable...

[@retromancer1739]

@@josephh8117 Almost as if Jim is going to kill her at the kickoff of the BAT. People talk about Chap 22 and crying, for me the saddest thing in the book was the look into Mab's soul. She's a monster not for the pleasure of it, but for duty. I fear for Molly going forwards, since she is my favorite character

[@josephh8117]

@@retromancer1739 And then an IMMEDIATE dilemma re: whether Molly needs to be executed, apparently!!

[@si1verg3cko]

And that was her at her weakest.

[@cullencase3114]

The whole 'feeling your followers die' power of the mantles: imagine how Mab feels when Outsiders are storming the Outer Gates.

[@jacobhaviaras9680]

To be fair that was given a specific name of a banner, we don't know currently the differences between that and a mantle

[@pantasticlaire3966]

Jacob Haviaras I think it was implied. The winter knight mantle is just a conduit for the winter queen’s mantle. She mentioned something about how he was powerful enough to call on the banner which makes me think that he was taking on some part of winter, which Mab would have access to constantly.

[@ldens6694]

Yeah, I got that too. Still feeling it after millennia - then her remark about if I fall, kill the winter Lady...gave me the chills. Who would defend the gates then? The mantles go back to the Queen that was? The one that thought Mab was too soft?

[@williamhadley549]

@@pantasticlaire3966 and Marcone too somehow 🤧

[@pofruin]

@@ldens6694 There is still Mother winter. We dont know how bad it would get but gates would not be unsuperwised.

[@gettingkilt]

Ebenezer and Harry are not back to normal. They just got to the end of their conversation. They know each other's position, they know there is nothing more to discuss. No sense arguing further, and they know where violence leads too. So they get on with business.

[@MrBeav1982]

Very much so that was showing the tension was still there when Harry said something to the effect of we have a lot to talk about after this and Ebenezer says something like "We did all the talking." It's that they are facing something so much bigger that there's no time to hold grudges with that threat looming, does not mean everything is fine. Beyond it all they still love eachother, they are family, and Mab points out later that love and hate aren't opposites.

[@misterJonathan]

That's what I took away from that. They got the "Scottish conflict resolution" out of their system, and are now actually talking it out.

[@fleurosa1]

Harry is pretty understanding, because he gets where his grandfather is with his hatred of the white court.

[@shawngillogly6873]

Yeah, no way are Ebenezer and Harry back to normal. Especially with what the White Council did at the end. It's just a matter of they both understood there were much, MUCH bigger fish to fry at the moment.

[@MrMooMoo088]

I could see why someone might think that McCoy and Dresden are back to normal if they're reading the book and have their own image of the character. I listen to the audiobooks and when Marsters narrates their dialogue there is definitely a sense of sneer and tension. Like they're just keeping up formalities for the fight.

[@jameshannum5641]

I have had some interesting thoughts about Mab and Titania after their conversation in Battle Ground. In Cold Days, Mother Summer indicates that it is Titania's job to protect humans from Mab. And, at the time, and with the information we had been given about Mab at the time, it seems to indicate that Titania's purpose is to make sure that Mab plays nice with humans, doesn't just inflict needless cruelty on humans. And based upon the way creatures of Winter treat humans, and things that the Summer Knight has said about his job, this makes sense. But when you look at how Mab reacted in Battle Ground: the lengths she went to protect humans, the support she gave Harry and his idea to help after the battle, her conversation with Titania, and her conversation with Harry at the castle, it make me wonder if Titania's job is not to make sure that Mab plays nice, but is the fall back if Mab breaks -- kind of like Sanya and Butters were for Harry. Either to bring her back, if possible, or destroy her if not.

[@melaniephillips4238]

Good point!

[@pantasticlaire3966]

I think the reason Mab acted so positively was probably both personal (after the Titan and fomor insulted her so much) and because this was a clear attack meant to eventually compromise her accords and the gates. She still boosted up a bunch of humans and convinced them to walk to their deaths, but if she could spare winter troops from the gate to murder anything in Chicago I don’t think there would be much stopping her besides Titania.

[@UnsoberIdiot]

I reckon it's mostly bad writing. But if we ignore that: The winter fae were created to stop the outsiders. Breed as much as they can to engage in as much violence as they can to stop the outsiders. That is their function. Butcher making her more human was him... I don't know. Flirting with the editor or the publisher, I hope. Mab should be a cold-hearted bitch that cares for nothing else but her purpose for being. Then again, having Harry weakening her and then reaping the "reward" is the sort of kick-to-the-balls thing that Butcher likes.

[@Kelto28]

I'm the only one that was on the edge on McAnally's scene? Finally putting him a bit more into the light each time? When he stopped Harry from Seeing him was a bit of a game changer in his identity. And Michael, Michael cursing was just beautiful. A lot of characters showed some nuances in these two books that just made me even more of a Dresden fan

[@MsThedonz]

I loved that scene I just want to know what happened after. They never went back to it.

[@sterlingarcher5698]

I think Mac is a Watcher, from book of Enoch. Sort of like an angel. The only other time someone stopped him from 'viewing them' was the angel when he was dead.

[@gregorybrown6719]

Mac is a Grigori one of the watcher Angels that were punished for helping and consorting with with humans. Their offspring were Nephilim

[@dag81games38]

Harry Dresden is cooler than Harry Potter that’s right I said it

[@illumstern8831]

Wait... You say this like it's controversial. What fool thought it was the other way around?

[@AKASHBAHAI]

@@illumstern8831 Tbh, Harry Potter probably won't even make into top 10 fantasy series.

[@ajinkyad2319]

@@AKASHBAHAI It's unfair to compare Harry Dresden to Harry Potter. Harry Potter is a children's book, a light story about good vs bad. And Dresden files falls into a adult category. I feel that both are masterpieces of their own time.

[@greensky9530]

There is an aspect of unfairness in the comparison because they’re aimed at different audiences but you are 100% correct

[@emmurrenauthor]

Apples and oranges

[@jarock-wh9lj]

As for 'how can Jim go bigger,' tell me Mike, is Lex Luthor a bigger threat to Superman or is Zod? In the hands of a great author, I think the smart villain is always more dangerous.

[@planaraspect9461]

Harry even points out how she functions as basically little more than a huge distraction. The real threat was an Outsider trying to be tricky...

[@ezrariner]

I think Marcone is going to be our big bad at the end of the saga.

[@jonreed9829]

I dont think Justine will be the only surprise by someone close

[@snowman9631]

@@planaraspect9461 yeah is the outsider had been able to free the shit on the island it would make Ethniu look small

[@jaquorofneohex8385]

I have the audiobook and when it got to Murphy's death i balled. I just lost it. So many years together as friends, then to would be lovers, finally they are trying to make a go of it.......... My wife had to comfort me, because if i ever lost her.......Butcher writes triumph and tragedy perfectly.

[@leiwolf27]

I cried to, remind me of when I lost Elaine this time last year. I really wanted Harry and Karrin to work, I even thought she would of ended up being part of winter to be with Harry

[@TrentMenssen]

Yep. I ugly cried. Legit felt like losing a friend. I had to pause the audiobook.

[@adamrybczyk9223]

I knew it had to be coming after they slept together, but by the gods it still hurt. I had trouble finishing the book because it was hard to go back into that world without her. I hate Jim with the fire of a thousand suns as the god of the Dresdenverse. But I love him dearly as an artist.

[@jaquorofneohex8385]

@@adamrybczyk9223 When she died......I could not hold it together. He'd lost Susan......Anastasia was a plant......he'd loved Murphy for so long.....then after becoming one. I hate how we never saw anything happen top Rudy. Harry will probably be thought responsible for Murphy missing. God....if Butcher shows Harry going to tell Mama Murph.......I dont know if my heart can handle all this.

[@jaquorofneohex8385]

@Lazy Lajdak yeah.......when i read that i was shattered and furious. Even felt for Gard. Seemed she really did care for Cujo Hendrix.

[@josephnicholson2593]

Thomas theory, big thing to remember is that Harry stipulates that he can only communicate with prisoners undergoing his same sentence, which there's only one of... Thomas is about to learn some seriously fun stuff

[@ardinhelme687]

Darth Dresden was an insane moment, and had it not been for the fact that he'd already established that Waldo's sword can only harm mosnsters, I doubt anything else could have brought him back. It was only the immutable fact given by the blade burning him that could snap him out if that fury

[@TheRedHaze3]

Ramirez was the one who said Harry was a monster, now. Near the end, at Murph's funeral.

[@mikesbookreviews]

That's right. Gosh, I didn't even get into him being booted from the council officially. Just a jam packed book.

[@D123-f9k]

Fuck Carlos

[@Yanninyree]

@@D123-f9k .... and the horse he rode in on. When (if) Carlos bites it, I won’t be shedding any tears. He gets pissed at Harry for not sharing details KNOWING that he would’ve run straight to the Council with whatever Harry shared.

[@christopherwoodson7586]

Carlos just strikes me as getting caught between a job he swore to do to the best of his ability and a friend who looks like he keeps stepping over the line. We can see Harry has his reasons. Carlos doesn’t have that luxury. After getting mauled by the winter lady, maybe it put doubts in his friend.

[@Gunleaver]

Just to point out that if you read Cold Case, you can understand a lot better where Carlos is coming from. What if Butters suddenly was all chummy with Lachaise and the Ghouls? How would Harry act toward him? Harry being the Winter Knight plus association with the White Court with the sexual aspect is probably setting off all sorts of triggers for Carlos thanks to his experience in Cold Case, from which he has clearly not recovered, physically or emotionally. That what was done to him in that story was not conscious or malicious only makes it worse, because if it had been a deliberate choice to harm Ramirez, he could then say "Well, Harry would never do that to me." But as it is, he now has proof that the intentions don't matter, that Winter is gonna Winter, and Harry is not even the one in the driver's seat so his good intentions don't even matter. Carlos might be wrong about Harry, but he has no reason to be right.

[@jasonkramer9445]

Just to bring it up. The Christmas story was reworked. The original didn't hit all of the same beats. He rewrote a bit of it to fit better.

[@anthonysilvano2065]

I just wanna say that Marcone taking Coin of Thorned Namshiel makes total sense and I dont know why I never considered it.

[@williamhadley549]

Because Skin Game they broke into his bank... I get they had to do it without Marcone knowing, because otherwise the vault would have never had sent them to the underworld, but nevertheless you don't think Marcone has a coin

[@cacuinwildstar]

This surprised me to no end. I screamed lots of obscenities when I read it. It makes sense that he is equal to the coin and makes a team but holy crap does that make him so dangerous.

[@Awelbeckk]

@@cacuinwildstar I was dispointed with that too. Marcone was tortured to take the Coin (Though not the Thorned Namshiel one). For me, he would have wanted to stay himself instead of becoming some servant of Nicodemus and pals. But I will assume Jim knows his characters and the story better than me and that we will have an explanation of his motivations in the next books. One rason to took the coin ... Miss Demeter's child, maybe he want to use Namshiel power to wake her up... maybe.

[@ErekLich]

@@Awelbeckk Remember, though, that Thorned Namshiel was the one who betrayed Nicodemus in Small Favor! Marcone is *not* working with that crew.

[@Awelbeckk]

@@ErekLich Huh ... I will have to read Small Favor again, I don't remember how it happened excatly.

[@dag81games38]

So I have listened to the entire audiobook all the way through and I have not slept.15 hours 43 minutes totally worth my time, It was epic The voice acting is incredible for this series

[@SunGawdRa]

Yeah, James Masters really own this character (Spike from Buffy, just in case you were wondering).

[@TengoWiskeyFoxtrot]

I found these books because James Marsters narrates them. I had heard of them and was on the fence of diving in, found out James was reading them and that was what pushed me in. So glad I did! My ultimate favorite series and I wish James could read everything to me! I love his voice but also he does such a great job of making u "FEEL" the moment.

[@anthonyhensley127]

regarding murphy i honestly feel like jim wanted to make the point that it was tragic because their love never got to fully bloom or grow and they spent so much time dancing around their feelings. I think murphy who faced off against so many huge villains and ended up dying to rudolph (the character we love to hate) was supposed to be devastating because he was not a worthy enemy, just a sniveling coward. ebenezar and harry are really not okay but i think in the midst of such a crisis they put their emnity on hold but they make it clear it is not settled. I also remember ebenezar talks about how the white court found out about his daughter is because "nobody fights like family". The entire group makes it clear that this fight would be one of attrition against the titan so I don't think any of those particularly huge personalities such as odin or titania really pushed as hard as they could but it also brings up a point that seems to be missed in that the gods power is significantly diminished due to lack of faith, followers, and belief which is alluded to many times as being not just the basis of their power but also their existence, i feel like the titan did not have that restriction. The last thing i want to address is the knights of the cross, I don't really think they were there to fight the titan i think their primary goal was to protect Harry and not from the monsters and mayhem but from himself. There always seems to be multiple reasons why they show up,but i could not help but notice that once they were on the scene one of them was seemingly always around Harry. I feel like mr. sunshine was making a bigger play than we all realized especially with the cut he got from butters sword that the mantle can't touch. Pain reminds you that you are human and fallible and the one thing i think harry needs going forward is that reminder that he is in fact still human.

[@gettingkilt]

The fact that the Sword could burn him (while he was attacking Rudolph in a rage) but could only harm monsters was the whole point. Harry was going Dark Side and the sword (possibly with Uriel's help) was trying to save him. That's its job.

[@tonywentworth1257]

Murphy was killed off because she was not good-looking enough for Dresden/Butcher.

[@michaelvonhasseln8932]

Lara "not being into it" because "she kinda has a thing for Harry" actually makes sense. True love is anathema to A White Court vampire, creating burns and blisters on them when they touch the one they love. Perhaps Lara's feelings run deeper than she is willing to admit; doing so would endanger her position as the behind the scenes Queen of the White Court. Also, no love for Major General Toot Toot? He is by far the biggest call back in the Dresden Files series, being one of the first supernatural characters we meet in Storm Front. His growth (literal and figurative) shows the loyalty that Dresden has garnered on both sides of the fey. I absolutely LOVE his character. The only one who has grown more than him as the series progresses is Butters and Harry himself.

[@UltaFlame]

Toot Toot was fucking impressive in this book. Everyone present when Harry called Toot was terrified at the sheer number of Toot's following.

[@calebsaenger3344]

@@UltaFlame Having Toot Toot show up with his army was another moment where I could see a bit of how other people view Harry, in the same way as the soulgaze with the kraken, the soulgaze with Bradley, and the listing of achievements before the fight with the Jotun

[@UltaFlame]

@@calebsaenger3344 I like that Toot has real gear now. It's time he outgrew the kitchen cutlery

[@calebsaenger3344]

in regards to Lara, I think you hit it right on the head. She has often seemed to appreciate Harry's aid/interference more than would be expected, so it does not seem impossible for their relationship to go to far in her mind at least. I imagine that she will attempt to maintain some emotional distance with Harry in the future, but Harry being Harry, I don't think that will last. Also, if they do work out together, will Lara take a page out of Justine's book to prevent the true love burns? Would Harry even be okay with that? Maybe they will just always have gloves on when interacting, but I don't see them interacting with out sex at some point. Maybe that will happen before true love is present? One more thing. There has now been ample foreshadowing of Lara acting to harm Harry without her control. Does Harry still have the unicorn-hair rope? There's probably going to be a scene where Lara acts under the influence of the vampire and harms Harry only to be burned badly. In fact that could very well be where the two of them see how they feel for each other.

[@calebsaenger3344]

@@UltaFlame For sure. Also, at the rate Toot Toot is growing, what will he become? He seems almost like a young Erlking, with his hordes of followers and lack of definite affiliation with a court.

[@Mysicalgreenunicorn03]

I loved Murph especially after book 4. Harry laid it out. She stood by him. She did more than that. God dam. Murph.

[@Gimp2288]

Spoiler Alert The soul gazes were a prelude to how outside powers view him much like how the White Council views him. Those who know him see the power he wields and it's terrifying, but like Bradley at least they see he is trying to help. Those who don't, much like the kraken, find him terrifying. Like his boast against the Jotun, these are feats of unbelievable strength when viewed from the outside. It's easy to write off the feats when viewed from Harry's perspective because we see how everything had to work a certain way for him to be able to accomplish any of these things. From an outsiders perspective you only see the feats, his necromancy, him being the Winter Knight, destroying the entire Red Court all Powerful things. Him flipping out on Rudolph shows what would happen if he flipped that switch and how scary he is because he almost took down two Knights of the Cross while on the verge of murdering someone he at the moment felt justified in doing. That's at least how I see it, it's one of the things he reflects on with every soul gaze, the terror from other people and why he was so terrified himself of allowing a soul gaze with Murph.

[@7Seraphem7]

That said, I do kind of wonder if the Kraken freaking out was entirely on Harry being Harry, and not at least partially some kind of existential terror at experiencing being a human period.

[@joshuareynolds23]

@@7Seraphem7 no it's entirely down to him being the guy who slays monsters imagine seeing first hand your inevitable death coming and, you know nothing in the world will stop him.

[@relogos]

Well Harry is a wall between the darkness and the innocent. A big spiked wall with barbed wires and laser guns. And a lot of dead bodies of monster that tried to climb over it or destroy it. Even if you know that that wall is there to protect you from evil thigs that go bump in the night it does not make the wall any less intimidating, it may even be more intimidating when you see all the dead bodies on it (99% red court).

[@Awelbeckk]

The weirdest think with the Kraken Soulgaze, was that the Kraken has a soul !!!!! And apparently it doesn't shock Dresden ... Could he soul gazes dogs or cats ?

[@opheliac9]

@@Awelbeckk I think that if he could, we would have seen this with Mouse and Mister... but interesting to consider!

[@BPBrousseau]

The two scenes where Harry connected with Mab really stood out to me. First with Harry's extended hand that Mab takes, then with the melted raindrops on the top floor of the castle. Both of those moments showed me that only fraction of Harry's strength and power comes from his magic.

[@MrThierryFournier]

The music box in the Christmas short story make me laugh out loud. Same Dresden, Same.

[@lucasbertsche3710]

Man, Murphy’s death absolutely destroyed me. I’m still feeling a little conflicted on how it happened but there’s no denying Butcher effectively ripped my heart out. I will say it kind of felt like the easy way out. It seemed like Butcher ran out of ways to convincingly use Murphy without making it completely unbelievable that she could survive. I would have loved to see Harry and Murphy’s relationship grow further and also to see Murphy and Maggie interact. Truly heartbreaking.

[@TheRayfield77]

I understand what you're saying. It almost felt shallow. But I think her death has more to do with the development of Harry. This will have a great effect on him down the road. It nearly turned him into a murderous monster right when it happened. And of course there's the chance that she comes back in some form. This is fantasy after all.

[@MichalBrat]

I feel like there was an attempt to "reset" Harry a bit closer to his former self. I mean, he is no longer a White Council member (BTW, that scene with Ramirez was one of the strongest for me), he got back his lab (even if buffed up a bit), he is single again (sort of), he needs to replace some of his equipment... Hell, even Bob is back! And while I dont think we can expect him to unlearn what he knows now I can totally imagine how the next book has more of that good-old-Chicago-wizzard vibe. That might have been set up even by him handing out those tokens for the survivors of the battle. Maybe Mab leaves him be more or less for the next year before he learns more about that starborn thing and before the whole arranged wedding and it wouldnt surprise me (and I wouldnt oblige) if he used that year for bits of detective work that dont involve a risk of the world being destroyed.

[@MichalBrat]

@Lazy Lajdak that is all true but on the other hand - he asked Harry to trust him as a friend several times. He knows he has been sort of double-crossed and we dont know his full motivation. Maybe losing his crew was the last straw for him as well.

[@MichalBrat]

@Lazy Lajdak ok, you convinced me... screw him, I dont feel sorry for him anymore :-)

[@bandi138138]

My favorite thing about it is that BOB’S BACK, BABY!

[@brianaufderheide8189]

Would love if next story starts at a lower level and it is filling in more back story. Harry spending time with River Shoulders.Or possibly getting back on Carlos good graces by a detour to Drakul where they meet up and fight together again before next apocalyptic stuff takes places.

[@brianaufderheide8189]

Also would love a novella of his two daughters teaming up kinda how Bob and Butters were a tandem for a while.

[@Gunleaver]

Miscellaneous: - Something to consider is that Ebenezer just went through the experience of accidentally killing his grandson. So he’s angry at the deception and at Harry’s life choices, but I think that’s giving him pause anyway. And Harry did sort of betray Ebenezer by tricking him that way, so they both have a measure of guilt in addition to being pissed at each other over the final confrontation and adamantly disagreeing over the issues with Maggie & Thomas. I think too, they don’t want to confront their issues head on again, out of fear of where it will lead. There is all that stuff about family and how fights with family are the worst, because you know each other so well and can hurt each other so effectively, and a related trope is how families gloss over stuff like that and suppress it and find it easier to mutually avoid those sorts of confrontations, because they know how badly the other family members can hurt them. - I don’t think Marcone has had the coin since “Small Favor”. I mean, he took possession of it, yeah, but he did not take up the coin and become a Denarian and get Namshiel in his head back then. For one thing, we have a Marcone PoV story in “Even Hand” where there is no hint of Namshiel’s presence. There are parallels enough with Dresden & Marcone that I think it fits that Marcone has been equivocating about it ever since, not least because of the reasons why Harry was sure he would not. But one of his priorities as we see in “Even Hand” is that he’s worried about Harry and his powers. He is much more aware than he lets on that however smart and ruthless and well-connected he makes himself, he’s still just a meat sack and Harry Dresden can play with the fundamental forces of Creation. So even though he has the willpower to refuse to give in to the Denarians on their terms, ultimately, once he has learned enough to know that he has the coin of the wizard of the Blackened Denarius in his possession, he’s not going to be able to resist taking it up. And the invasion of the Fomor provided enough of a rationalization to do so and to learn magic on his own. Just as Harry accepted the aid of Lasciel’s shadow to fight the necromancers and save the city and the Winter Knighthood to save his child, Marcone gave in and took up the coin to protect his territory and status. But really, because he’s weaker than Harry and he knows it. He can surround himself with the best talent money can buy and Harry can bowl them over easily and kill Marcone without much of a sweat. So he takes up the coin, JUST to learn enough magic to fight Harry on an even footing. - In hindsight, Justine set up the conflict between Marcone and the Fomor, which might have precipitated their invasion once they realized that mere mortals were now being treated as peers of the great powers who drove them away in the first place. Nemesis has been at work that far back. - Lara could be faking her disinterest, if for no other reason than she knows that being on Harry’s side against Mab is a better way to get to him than depending on Mab to force Harry to go along with it. She’s going to seduce him by being sympathetic and helpful and all, “Well, let’s just humor Mab and go through with it, I won’t make you do anything. Remember, Harry was protected against her feeding in “White Night” by his loving Susan and not being with anyone since they hooked up in “Death Masks” four books/years before. So it’s a sure bet that his protection from being with Karrin is not going away anytime soon, until he compromises it by willingly accepting someone else. Lara’s going to play a long con with Harry. And the fact that from her point of view, he is holding her brother hostage, only makes it more imperative to play nice with him. And there will also be sympathy, because Harry now really believes that Lara loves Thomas and will go as far for him as Harry himself would. She’s smart enough to figure that out and so come up with excuses to put Mab off, rather than leaning into Mab’s proposed arrangement to get her hooks into him.

[@maximasforrester8689]

You will always be close to my heart Mike for introducing me to this series. I’ve read most of the most the big names in Fantasy and the Dresden Files has been the best reading adventure in my life so far.

[@mikesbookreviews]

So glad you’ve enjoyed it!

[@andreamiller3578]

1. The Murphy scene shattered me completely. I was ugly crying through the entire thing. His empty house description perfectly captured my thought when my mother died, and it just gutted me all over again. I wasn't surprised she died, but I didnt expect the method. Murphy was only human and she was stepping into territory she was not really equipped to handle. I completely related to all of Harry's emotions throughout the rest of the book. 2. I got the impression Eb and Harry still have a lot of issues to sort put but they did seem to dial down the anger toward each other in Battle Ground, especially with Eb admitting to some of his mistakes. But I noticed he didn't really back down on his basic opinions. A reckoning is still coming. 3. Loved the knights of the Cross, and Mab really was awesome. Loved the bigger glimpses we got into her character. 4. Not a fan at all of the Lara marriage. I like Harry at odds and with only a tentative alliance with those monsters. Do not want him in literal bed with them. That's a big reason I'm not a fan of most urban fantasy books. This is the one time Jim has written something that truly gives me pause about future storylines. I want to finish this series and love it. This could be what ruins it for me. I will try to trust Jim over this. 5. Not sure how I feel about Marcone's coin. Makes sense though. Be interesting going forward. 6. The Justine thing was not entirely a surprise to me since the Dresden Files Podcast folks have theorized about that. It explains a whole lot about her character. Poor Thomas. 6. Michael continues to be such a wonderful friend and dad. Love him. And the gloves because Molly's not getting out of washing dishes. LOL. 7. The White Council continues to tick me off, including Ramirez. Him blaming everything on Harry was infuriating and made me think of him as whiny. I understand but I really don't like their conclusions about Harry. By pushing him away, they help create what they fear. This is the beginning of the end for them. I know this will help make him more powerful in the end but I hate when he feels alone and rejected. Heh. It's obvious someone is working OT to manipulate the wizards in regard to him. They came in hot regarding him this time, so somebody's really working them up. Would have loved to have seen Morgan's reaction to all this if he had survived Turn Coat. 8. Looking forward to seeing Harry's plans to help people and the castle's purpose. 9. Loved seeing all the magic action on the battleground. River Shoulders, Mab, Molly, Ebenezer and Listens to Wind were the bomb. Everybody was. Toot Toot scene had me laughing so hard. Such a great scene. And Molly with her "Welcome to the Jungle" moment. Loved it. 10. Liked that even with the non-stop action, Jim was able to work in emotional beats, character growth and develop story arcs.

[@jameshannum5641]

4 - Currently Harry cannot be "in bed" with Laura. Or, at least, she won't like it very much. I cannot see Harry having sex with some random person just so he and Laura can get together. This is strictly a political marriage. Mab has something up her sleeve.

[@andreamiller3578]

@@jameshannum5641 I hope so regarding the political marriage, but Mab did imply children, I thought. Everybody keeps citing the year for mourning for him to "get over" Murphy, but I think he was protected by more than a year after Susan left and then died. He loves fiercely and long. And rarely. So I'm sure that will play into this. I guess I'm reacting to some of the glee I see about the possibility of him and Lara as a couple. I just don't see Harry being OK with that. It would seem a complete betrayal of all he's said and done before. But maybe that's the idea. sigh

[@DPS31762]

@@jameshannum5641 Mab's probably gonna just order him to get laid sometime before the year is up.

[@jameshannum5641]

@@DPS31762 Well, I guess that will be the end of the series then. Because I guarantee that Harry is not going to just f*** some person because Mab tells him to.

[@donaldharris3037]

@@andreamiller3578 I always got the feeling that it was heading this way from the beginning Laura has always respected him and you could tell the only reason that Harry didn't react to her in the past was Murphy

[@namois01]

I absolutely heard “Welcome to the Jungle” as Butcher described the Winter Lady’s arrival, even before he confirmed that was the song playing..

[@georgelarkin7297]

He did mention in the text, when Carlos delivered the decision from the council that Harry was out that Ebeneezer, and Listens to Wind were basically laid up in the wizard version of intensive care. So one can assume they survived, and will probably be pissed at the Council's decision when they've healed enough to find out. I think that the fact that Harry is starborn will have a LOT to do with the way Jim is building things up. Consider, we have just found out that Drakul, and Listen are also starborn. I have faith that Jim will top what has happened so far. :)

[@josephnicholson2593]

Right, Los said it was an emergency hearing while Eb and Listens are out of commission

[@delphy2478]

i'm also guessing that most of the rest of the council doesn't know about it. the starborn conspiracy seems to be similar tot eh nemesis conspiracy, where the knowledge is very selective in who has it. also, i'd bet money that the gatekeeper is a starborn

[@shawngillogly6873]

@@delphy2478 Oh, I think the rest of the Council knew *exactly* what they were doing. Ebenezer and Listens to Wind are Harry's 2 allies on the Council. Both get incapacitated, and Merlin, along with his toady Christos (who I'm pretty sure is Black Court) push through the excommunication of Harry. Merlin only needed 1 more of the remainder to side with him to get his wish. And he's always played politics over doing his job.

[@delphy2478]

@@shawngillogly6873 what i meant is that i don't know that the rest of the white council knows about what it means to be a starborn. maybe some of the senior council, but not the rank of file wizards

[@shawngillogly6873]

@@delphy2478 Listens to Wind says he needs to talk to the Senior Council before he can clue Harry in. He wouldn't be asking for their permission to do so if they had no knowledge. Harry himself says he's convinced they've intentionally kept him in the dark on what it means.

[@MineVex]

The two soul gazes were supposed to set up the fear of him Soul Gazing Murphy. He says "I was afraid of losing her."

[@jamesmaster3333]

That one part where Butters held back the Titan and Harry has that inner monologue about Faith. That brought a tear to my eye as well.

[@dillonpatterson4310]

I think they're just leaving the harry Ebenezer thing for the next book.. Also Marcone versus Nicodemus is gonna be a pretty cool plot..

[@shawngillogly6873]

I think Harry/Ebenezer might not even be resolved next book. I suspect the White Council will shatter in the BAT, when the Black Council is outed. I suspect Mirror Mirror is going to have 2 things: 1) Justine is kept from Nemesis. 2) Harry finds something of the inner Black Council and brings it to light.

[@jamescrossman2383]

I read "Christmas Story" for each of the last two Christmases while waiting for Peace Talks, and I still didn't realize Maggie and the Carpenters survived while reading BG yesterday. I was still reeling from Murph's death, and never remembered Christmas Story between their deaths and the reveal that they were illusory while reading. Grief affects the memory. As to whether it was worth the wait, for both together, yes! My problem with Peace Talks was after a decade of reading and expecting a "Crowning Moment of Awesome" in each book, Peace Talks was the first book without such a moment for Harry. Battle Ground made up for it, big time, but I'm in the camp that would've paid whatever it took to buy it as a single book.

[@calebsaenger3344]

in regards to "Christmas Story", I believe that Jim rewrote it to fit in to the events. I'm pretty sure that there were not any spoilers in it before Battlegrounds came out

[@nataku313]

In regards to Murphy: - at some point Harry third eye looks at Murphy. What he saw was blue and white light glowing warrior angle. - I have never been able to forgot that moment. Her now being in the haven for warriors. It leans a bit into that wizard sight imitate Harry saw. Let’s see what happens from here

[@aaronk8440]

In Ghost Story the tombstone of the little girl in the Graceland graveyard who started talking to him and (I think) ended up being a form that Mab took on told him that he would become a monster. And she explained it as a positive. That monsters shape the world around them etc.

[@TheDarkMessiah]

I think Butters also expressed doubt in the following book as to whether or not Harry was a monster now (and maybe Ramirez in BG?)

[@kanis999]

I think the Walkers do indeed step up the power scale significantly from the Titan. Their goal is confirmed to be 'Empty Night', destruction of all reality, rotting of the core of God's creation from within. The way He Who Walks Beside is introduced gives me serious Satan vibes, and I think collectively, the Walkers are already setup to be, if not the final bosses of the series, the guardians right before the final boss. The Walkers are as powerful at destruction of the mind and soul as the Titan was powerful at physical and magical destruction. Throughout the series Jim has placed plenty of hints that he considers intelligent, deceptive foes with lots of stealth and cunning to be the most dangerous. Those with the most knowledge have the most power, according to Jim. Who has more knowledge than Nemesis? Nicodemus? Well I can see those two being a team anyway. The Titan was a crying baby in a temper tantrum, a very powerful but straightforward blunt instrument, whereas the Walkers are the truest, deepest, darkest evil fathomable, capable of destroying reality. Having said all that, I love the reveals. You knew the third walker was coming after Mac indicated 3 bottles of beer, and I had a feeling the last walker would be a damn important one. This was one of my biggest questions for the whole series, so I actually did get some of the big answers I've been looking for. How "Empty Night" is explained says volumes about what the apocalyptic trilogy will look like. I believe that is the 3rd book of the trilogy. Very ominous. I also loved the reveal of other starborns, Drakkul and Listen, who both happen to be extremely evil. They're born every 666 years. That means that Harry belongs in the same class as them in a way. Again very, very ominous. The quote of needing "Blood to fill the Stars and Stones" or something like that was perhaps the single most interesting subtle reveal in the whole book. Think hard about the implications of what's being said. I can't quite figure it out but Jim is clearly giving huge clues here as to what to expect for the trilogy. Man, I'm pumped. What a great book.

[@LumberDawn]

I don't think Nicodemus will ally with the Outsiders. He wants to be the man in charge, and if all reality is gone, that means he is too. He might try to double cross them, but that's as far as he works go imo.

[@kanis999]

@@LumberDawn While I definitely don't disagree with you, I really need to know why Nemesis used the exact same phrasing as NIcodemus about Apocalypse being a frame of mind. How did they know the exact same quote?

[@jameshannum5641]

No, I am pretty sure that Nicodemus is in opposition to the Outsiders. We still do not understand the fallen. They may be looking for the destruction of humanity, but I doubt that they would be interested in the destruction of reality. Getting more insight into the Fallen through Marcone will be interesting.

[@jameshannum5641]

@@kanis999 While that is an interesting point and may be pointing to something, perhaps it is because the Apocalypse is a frame of mind?

[@snowman9631]

its not that you cant make a bigger villain but if there is a bigger villain then no 1 would be able to contend them. Ethniu put down 4 of the strongest beings ever, behind only the mothers and angels and it was only a mild challenge. Im sure the walkers will bring about way more destruction but i dont think we will ever see such a raw display of overwhelming power from a single individual ever again. The last thing i ever see happening is anyone siding with the Outsiders for any reason. They mean to bring out about the end of all things ever and even the most evil of beings wants to be able to revel in their power and oppress others. Any plans they have would end along with them if the outsiders get what they want.

[@masteroflag]

I actually expected Murphy to last longer. Like several books of dating Dresden and being close to a step mother for Maggie before that trigger was pulled

[@williamhadley549]

I get what you mean, but, for a story to be as engaging and everevolving as Harry's story, things can't stay complacent, relationships have to change or be completely severed, otherwise we'd get very bored of some characters and to an extent the story as a whole. Heck even Harry and Bob's relationship has changed over the course of the series gradually. The only character Jim Butcher cannot kill off or change is Maggie, as she is now symbolic of Harry's hope and need to survive against the various kinds of darknesses he faces. Maggie might grow up to be a teenager by the time the series gets to its final conclusion, possibly with teenager problems, but she'll never die atleast. I think Murphy had to die, it was necessary, because Harry is a better character, and the story is more engaging as a whole, as bad as it sounds, when he's in pain and trouble. Marrying Lara Raith in the next book will only add to this.

[@masteroflag]

William Hadley oh definitely. I just feel like Jim killed her off before having to deal with properly having Murphy and Maggie bonding. So it comes off that while I get how Maggie is way more important that we went from basically ignoring Maggie existed in books 13-15 beyond “well she’s there and I need to protect her” to kinda coming off as Murphy’s replacement since these last two books which are technically one super book Jim split up is the only one where both are characters in the story and suddenly Murphy is just done since she doesn’t get the love sword or whatever to fool us into thinking she’d be around for Maggie

[@williamhadley549]

@@masteroflag Yeah, remember too that Charity is effectively a mother figure for Maggie aswell. It would of been nice to see Murphy, Harry and Maggie all hang out together, but the Carpenter family is Maggie's family firstly. Harry is her father, but until the last few books atleast he's been more of an elusive uncle, so Michael's kinda her father too.

[@killcat1971]

Nah, I suspect it's part of Butchers midlife crisis, I bet a dollar that Dresden hooks up with a "younger woman" shortly.

[@westmanpl]

Something that really intrigues me is that Thorned Namshiel was said to be the Denarian who helped attack Arctis Tor in Proven Guilty. That means that he was working with the Black Council and by extension probably the Outsiders.

[@sattymike0155]

Great point. First I’ve seen this brought up.

[@TheAlexandersword]

It astounds me that the white council ignores the fact that the knights of the cross continuously keep company with Harry and still distrust him. The knights are basically the truest “good guys” and they just omit this in their judgment of Harry’s wizard status.

[@EMTedroni]

The White Council doesn't see the Knights keeping company with a friend. They see the Knights keeping a potential enemy *very* close.

[@jeffshattuck4973]

It was a really long wait for Harry et al. He is with out a doubt my favorite literary character. Ever. The journey that Jim Butcher has taken us on is second to none. Every character in this series has so many layers to them that I honestly enjoy them all. I will be really sad when Jim is done with Harry, but will also look forward to Goodman Grey, and his stories, that are bound to include at least a mention of the greatest ever wizard to bear the name HARRY!

[@BaldBookTuber]

As I mentioned in the discord, losing Murph in the fashion we did was absolutely soul shattering. Gard honoring her and putting Harry’s mind at ease toward the end was one of my favorite scenes, and this has eclipsed Changes as my favorite book in the series.

[@philnorfleet1371]

@@bacail Saw an amusing favorite scenario for Rudolph online: "a wake for Karrin held by Kincaid, with the Gards, Lara and all the other monsters who knew Karrin and admired her. The guest of honour is Rudy, tied to a chair and hopped upon Third Eye seeing all their ture selves as they share reminiscences of Karrin, and unable to ever, ever forget what he is seeing."

[@CobaltContrast]

I appreciate you sharing the house interactions. Its great that you guys communicate well. Butcher has managed to make me cry a plenty.

[@michaelf3920]

I think that some fans might be overlooking the Conjuritis as just a pure slapstick gag. It's been told that it happens to young wizards during their adolescence. That, and a couple of off-handed remarks give me the theory that Harry is possibly immortal, and that his magic is still at that stage. He has called himself in the top 2-3 of his generation in power. Harry is also known to underestimate how others see him. I think there is a BIG power boost in Harry's future, likely realised toward the end of the series.

[@EMTedroni]

That potential is what Drakul alluded to, I think. Harry is Starborn, like Drakul, and being Starborn is probably what opened Drakul up to becoming an immortal monster. But other characters who might also be Starborn would be Mab, Titania, and the Erlking.

[@melodie-allynbenezra8956]

One of the things that we see that Harry built into the end of Battle Ground that came out in Christmas Eve was... Harry showed up, uninvited, to the summit at the end of the battle. And he explained that the scales needed to be balanced, and the way to make this happen was for the nations of the Accords to make good to the vanilla people of Chicago, quietly, behind the scenes, but nonetheless. And Molly's Christmas gift was the receipt of all the money that was paid back in restitution, for funerals, and otherwise weregeld to the citizens of Chicago. So... It was a teaser for us. The Peace Talks were supposed to have disastrous results. And they do. But that Harry does have a moment of peace, where good things happen, and Michael (and Molly) remind him that Harry is still a good man.

[@philnorfleet1371]

I didn't see Lara as being opposed to the marriage - that was her last Favor and sort of explains why Molly is so (heh) frosty toward her earlier. I think she was just surprised that Mab was in the "do it now" stage as, despite being a sexy, sexy monster, Lara understands that Harry needs to grieve for Murph AND would likely still be protected by Murphy's love. If she's going to be totally Machiavellian about it, she needs to arrange for someone to seduce him to clear out the protection before she can marry him. And man, this marriage is going to piss off Eb even more given his utter distrust of White Court ... and probably make him think that he's seeing his daughter all over again... Brings to mind the question: does Lara end up bearing Harry's kid down the road if the marriage actually goes through? I kind of want that to happen before Thomas gets out of the box just for the LOLs and WTFs from him when it does. Can the Winter Knight mantle protect against Lara feeding? Or, as Jim alluded to in that interview thing yesterday with the question about White Court feeding on Fae, is feeding on Harry going to really mess up Lara due to the Knightly mantle? I'm quite interested in this plot twist because Lara is my favorite monster. :P

[@bacail]

I agree, Lara was asking permission to court Harry. It was Mab that jumped straight to marriage right the hell now, using another request of Lara's to ally with Winter as the reason.

[@cornflake233]

One other thing that I thought of today: what if Mab is playing another long game… She sees how competent and powerful Lara is becoming and she’s tying Harry to her so that he can do what he always does; Takes down ambitious monsters.

[@cansky1109]

Jamie Bingham I don’t think Lara’s turning dark. Thomas already binds both her and Dresden to a mutual respect above most other characters/monsters. Getting to know Lara personally for the first time rather than being a background character is hopefully going to be refreshing and I support it above Luccio/Molly/Ellaine pairings

[@cornflake233]

Can Sky Oh I didn’t say that she’s turning dark at all. I’m just saying that she’s becoming powerful. And no one can become powerful without Mab putting her finger in the pie and either controlling or putting in check.

[@cornflake233]

Can Sky and really I 100% approve of the match. Like mother like son… (The only question is did that get imposed on him or did his subconscious do it to himself since it is so damn complicated it presented as an avatar)

[@shade419]

So I do agree with everyone else who isn't super happy about the Lara and Dresden marriage idea. It's a tricky kind of situation and will be interesting to see how it unfolds. But, yeah.. I think that Lara definitely *does* like Harry, or she did. I feel like her feelings are about as complicated on the matter as Harry's right now. He tricked her and imprisoned Thomas and smacked her down easily when she tried to fight him over it. And besides that, while she likes(liked) Harry and respected his abilities, she also knew he was in love with Murphy. And though she's a monster, she's not devoid of some humanity, certainly closer to humanity than Mab, so I imagine the speed with which the marriage was announced struck her as just as inconsiderate and callous as it struck Harry. I really don't know what will happen between the two of them, but it'll be interesting to watch.

[@karenthomas1456]

I properly cried. James Marsters read it beautifully and he made me cry several times. I hope that asshole Rudolph is going to pay for what happened. I hope Harry and Ebeneezer can sort out their problems. I like their good relationship. Harry needs allies in the wizard community. I was so relieved the Carpenter family are all ok. Butters is an amazing dude. It was amazing to see so many brilliant characters all pulling together to beat such a massive foe. I loved the locker scene between Harry and Marcone. I hope Thomas is going to be ok in future books.

[@joshuareynolds23]

I didn't cry at all throughout the whole book, Murphy's death left me speechless and a bit dead inside but, I felt it was inevitable due to her continuing press to do more and more dangerous things. I almost cried when I thought Maggie died but, I picked up on mouse being missing but, at the end when Molly was accepted by her parents I lost it. I'm tearing up thinking about it now.

[@karenthomas1456]

@@joshuareynolds23 Yeah I was really gutted when I thought Michael C and the family were dead. That would have really hit me had it been real. x

[@minaparish8665]

I just have to say it: I love James Marsters. He is phenomenal as an actor, a musician and overall artist. Glad they got him to read.

[@thhunter]

Rudolph is home free. No body. No witnesses.

[@leiwolf27]

Thhunter I don’t think Butters will let him be Scott free

[@madmintentertainment6268]

also, this is a perfect time to do a mirror mirror story line that butcher has said he wanted to do. now that harry is in this kind of emotional rut i feel like the best way to develop and find himself is literally to face other alternate versions of himself. not all of them have to be bad but it would be awesome to get that perspective

[@scottking5555]

Harry actually explains his relationship with the black staff, when Harry lived with him, the black staff taught him how to compartmentalize priorities, thats why Harry can deal with Murphys death, thats why he can put aside, and recognize the mother of his brothers kid being an outsider, and that why he can compartmentalize his beef with his grandfather...

[@christopherwoodson7586]

I had thought she had gotten hold of a coin from a Nickelhead, in peace talks. I didn’t think Nemesis had got back so quick but then I realized he probably never left and hopped into Justine after leaving Cat Sith before she covered herself in mud to get through the barrier.

[@mattroxursoul]

Michael is the heart of the series in a lot of ways for me. He knows that those simple acts of love are important. Gives the people grounding in a mad world going wild

[@davidg32]

Enjoyed the review, Mike. This is only the second one I've seen, so I'm going to go back and watch the rest of them when I get a chance. Thanks for doing both a spoiler and non-spoiler version...nice that you let us choose which one we're ready for. Murphy hit me hard in this one. (Ironic that Hendricks was the one who had the heroic death.) Have to admit, it was a surprise to me that Marcone took up a coin. I wouldn't have thought that even enormous power would tempt him to let someone/something else have even a little control over him. Sad that Harry's been kicked out of the White Council. You would think they knew what he had had to face. PS: Regarding future enemies: Let's not forget that there's a prison on an island in the middle of Lake Michigan containing hoards of the most evil beings who ever lived...and surely Demonreach's power is not limitless. Plus, there's a Black Council out there somewhere, and now the White Council's pissed at him.

[@mikesbookreviews]

I figured it was best to start splitting those up. Glad you enjoyed it.

[@dirgeofthedawn]

As someone who finished started the series about two months ago, I was *very* happy and surprised when I saw that Battle Ground had come out literally days after I finished Peace Talks! What a series.

[@nealhoffman7518]

I finished in 9 hours after Barnes and Noble opened. I would have finished sooner but a friend brought her kids over for pumpkins

[@MurdochCreates]

I just love towards the end of the story, where Micheal finds out that the White Council kicked Harry out and starts swearing up a storm and surprised the heck out of Harry. Great bit of levity.

[@jeffshattuck4973]

Murdoch’s Mind Maybe my favorite part of battleground. To me Michael is the definition of a God fearing family man. He has always kind of been Harry’s conscience, and helped to steer him in the right direction

[@andresantiago6865]

What's bigger than a Titan? Whatever is behind the outer gates that takes all the forces of Winter to keep at bay by the skin of their teeth.

[@kanis999]

@Domagoj Čović He Who Walks Besides was described in such a way that I thought it could be satan. The long title before saying the name has a lot of devil vibes.

[@markwatson8714]

@@kanis999 Nah, it's a Lovecraft reference (think He Who Shall Not Be Named). It wouldn't make much sense for Hell to be involved with the Outsiders - if that were the case it would presumably be Uriel defending the Gate rather than Winter.

[@nathanliteroy9835]

>What's bigger than a Titan? Old One sleeping in the sea - not all of them got thrown out of Outer Gates. Molly have fought his followers in Cold Case

[@christopherwoodson7586]

Galactus?

[@WinnetouiriVamp1]

“Muuuuuurph” 😭😂

[@knotsbygordion]

Best moment- Micheal "The Hammer of God" Carpenter dropping five minutes of CLUSTER F-BOMBS. But seriously, watch Marcone. Thorned Namshiel was involved in the strike on Arctis Tor, and unleashed Hellfire there. That was on the pushing of other beings (Black Council?) and perhaps the outsiders- Lea was in there being cured of Nemesis infection. I think Namshiel may have been the man behind the man for Nicodemus and Anduriel, and now the best sorceror among the Denarians is making a move to topple #1...

[@saberstrike000]

Actually, Marcone/TN had me rethinking Arctis Tor (although Skin Game had me thinking along the same lines.) We've always (because Harry did) assumed that the Hellfire assault on the Arctis Tor was some hidden scheme of the Black Council that accidentally helped Harry and Co get through the outer defenses, and that Thorned Namshiel (and possibly Tessa) was betraying Nicodemus. But...one of the things we know about Nemesis is that it makes/allows people to act against their natures...and one of the most pivotal elements of Skin Game is how different Nicodemus was. Mr. Long-game-play-the-safe-odds throwing away all political credibility and alliances, his daughter and his reputation on a single throw of the dice? What if Nicodemus is the one working for/manipulated by the Outsiders and TN is actually the "straight man" for the Denarians? In that case, maybe the Hellfire at the Arctis Tor was actually at the behest of Mab/someone backing Harry to make his insane raid even possible? If TN was Nemesis/a collaborator in Small Favor that means that the triple cross arranged by Mab, Hades and him against Nicodemus was done under his influence, which I find both unlikely and horrifying.

[@dylancox631]

Love your review, as usual. I don’t think Butcher has written himself into a corner. In fact I think this book was needed to show that those “all powerful” beings do, in fact, have real limits. Ethniu showed the world these guys can be fought and they can be beaten. It establishes limits, even if those limits are ridiculously huge, they exist and are tangible now. The Marcone scenes were great, and I love how Namshiel seems to work for him and not the other way around like Nicodemus. The banter between him and Ethniu was also awesome. I had seen a lot of people about Nemesis and Justine in a Facebook group. It also explains her recovery from near death and her mental state, which was established early on as schizophrenic. Great book! Thanks as always.

[@robinmoore7202]

I finished the book yesterday evening and have had some time to think about it and I really have mixed emotions. Murphy being taken out by that coward Rudolph I didn’t like at all. At all. Not everyone goes out in a blaze of glory, realism, blah blah yeah yeah. I get that. Yes, she had made her decision to be out in the fight and she was brave and true to herself to the end. I just think it was a huge disservice to a character who has been there from the very beginning. The battles were great, the humor was great, I loved Butters and Sanya. I enjoyed the banter between Marcone and Harry. The undercurrent of mutual respect was evident and rang true. I’m glad Molly FINALLY came clean to her parents and I hope, going forward, her family is the grounding force that keeps Molly from going off the deep end. I enjoyed the brief moments of Mab acting almost human and it would be interesting to me to see a bit more of that. My overall feelings, however, have left me feeling flat emotionally. I’ve cried reading books and have invested over a decade into following the characters of all of Butcher’s books so I was surprised when Karrin’s death evoked little emotion. I’ve been through such a devastating loss so I would have expected myself to react emotionally. As I’ve had time to think about it, and looking back over the series as a whole, I’ve come to the realization, for me, why the last several books have felt flat to me. As best as I can explain it, I feel the recent books are more focused on action, battles and conflict and less on moments that allow the characters to develop, to breathe. Yes, the characters are still developed but the depth is missing. The quiet moments, the time spent with Harry and his thoughts. Harry’s relationship with Susan felt more tangible to me than his romantic relationship with Karrin because the time was spent to explore it. With Murph and Harry, it was more oh, they’re together now, on to the fights. I’m not certain I’m explaining myself well but I definitely didn’t hate the story. Butcher is one just a few authors for which I’ll gladly buy their releases in hardback and I will continue to do so. I just think that, as the focus of the overall series has shifted to VAST conflicts, something has been lost.

[@montethompson6350]

The ultimate goal is to write a more powerful wizard than Raistlin . If you havnt read all the books based on that character by Margaret Weis & Tracy Hickman I recommend it. The feats have to be achieved and the case files are almost complete and Harry needs to become strong enough to beat a God.

[@phatpat63]

"My overall feelings, however, have left me feeling flat emotionally." Same. It was a chore for me to even finish the book.

[@joshuareynolds23]

@@phatpat63 I disagree the reason it feels flat is because her death was inevitable and, she has been so close to death so many times. Not to mention previously mourning the loss of one of Harry's lover. As well as the die alone death curse. The pieces have been there for to long for her death to have emotional weight.

[@DPS31762]

@@joshuareynolds23 Harry was always very likely to outlive her because he's a wizard. When I read that part, as soon as Rudolph's gun went off, I knew. But I was still like wtf and had to re-read the scene to make sure I hadn't missed something, which did kind of mess up the emotional impact for me.

[@odiums_taint]

been thinking on starting dresden thanks to you... my tbr is massive atm. thanks for another great vid mike!

[@nealhoffman7518]

It may be 17 books (and two anthologies of shorts) but it's actually still a quick read (until about the dozenth time and then the first three drag a little)

[@jameshannum5641]

@@nealhoffman7518 I find that the series doesn't really pick up until the 7th book, but, yes, the second three are better than the first three. And all of them are important for the story arc!

[@nealhoffman7518]

Harry's out of the White, but is he still a part of the Grey?

[@sinkline4058]

ooo epsecially since members of the grey where in surgery during the vote.

[@chrisshaw9804]

Hmm... Ebenezer faking (somewhat) his anger at Harry to keep the White Council from sending someone else after Harry?

[@LumberDawn]

And what has Rashid been up to? Did he have a say on the vote?

[@nealhoffman7518]

If I remember, during apace Talks there was an attack on the outer Gates. He was probably there

[@DPS31762]

@@chrisshaw9804 He would have killed Harry if it had actually been Harry and not a projection, and Ebenezer clearly didn't know it was a projection. He wasn't faking his anger.

[@TomasCyr]

The importance of him soul gazing Bradley and the kraken is how HE knows that his soul is stained and most people react real poorly to it and so he never gazed Murphy and now he never will. He spent their entire life together holding back from her for fear of losing her and even after they professed their love, even then he still wouldn't chance the gaze. That was the significance, it was him showing that even a kraken wanted to run away in fear and that he didn't trust her possible reaction to that.

[@inukai44]

I love the scene at Murphy's grave with Michael

[@Musicteachersheff]

Christmas Eve was tacked onto the end of the audio book almost like an Epilogue. So good! I get a little emotional at the family bits too and man that whole thing got me. The Murphy scene happened when I was getting ready in the morning. I had some eye makeup issues that day.

[@fasdaVT]

Spoiler, stop reading Jim Butcher went to the Joss Whedon school of relationships. If your characters get too happy murder their love.

[@mikesbookreviews]

One. Hundred. Percent.

[@Aschwartz14]

@@mikesbookreviews He has said at a con that Each of the laws will be broken in his books. The next book is Named mirror mirror, and it is supposed to be about time travel. I don't think it will be about Harry explicitly trying to bring her back, but I feel like she will somehow come back as a consequence

[@TheBlackstaff]

@@Aschwartz14 Mirror Mirror is about alternative universe. Like the star trek ep. The time travel book is further down the line. I'm betting its called Tick Tock.

[@locowolfie]

J W no jim has already said that while mirror mirror is Harry’s foray into a alternative timeline. It will be the book where Harry breaks the time traveling law. Also: its not “all 7 laws will be broken in the books” its Harry will break all 7 laws and get away on a technicality.

[@13rym26]

I actually wonder if Murphy was supposed to be who kept him grounded to the end but once he decided Harry would have a child Jim might have realized she was even better for it and so Murphy could die. Although there is always a chance she will come back I guess because of time travel. Also, being kicked out of the Council and knowing McCoy has the option might make him less inclined to follow the Laws if he feels the situation warrants it.

[@Rob165x]

I think the soulgazes at the start signified that at the end, with him considering Carlos' words calling him a monster only to realize that during the embassy meeting he was surrounded by monsters who seemed to plot getting one over humanity. Yeah I guess it could've been more meaningful, it's in the theme, but I guess it was a lot going on.

[@hunglac7578]

My favorite quote from the book: I did the numbers

[@mikesbookreviews]

Math doesn't lie.

[@thewhoosh5072]

That little soul-gazing detail is really cool. Whenever people soul-gazed Harry in the early books, they would feel sorry for him and leave with a newfound respect for him. But ever since hegot the mantle, the people he's soul-gazed recoil in fear instead.

[@Virjunior01]

"How do you go bigger?" I'm pretty sure Mab raised her own death flag. And I'm gonna hate it. I freakin love Mab.

[@carterdahl9654]

I think if Mab dies, it won't be until the end of the series

[@Virjunior01]

@@carterdahl9654 I'll still hate it

[@Virjunior01]

@@carterdahl9654 oh fuck... when's the next book? Battle Grounds was earrh-shattering

[@MsThedonz]

Great review. I know at the end ebenezer and listens to wind were both in the hospital and that's when harry got voted out. But I was not sure if river shoulders survived? I don't think it said one way or the other.

[@Gunleaver]

"I'm surprised that this isn't the thing that made Harry go over the edge and go full-on Winter Evil" I am surprised that you seem to think he has not. I mean, he's not Evil, evil, but I think that's the point in the series, that bad guys don't see themselves that way, that Harry's not going to recognize it, and it's not going to be so explicit and obvious in his stream of consciousness. Going evil in "The Dresden Files" is not going to be Harry suddenly abandoning his ethics or acting all the time the way he did when going after Rudolph. He's still more or less trying to do the right thing. He still cares about the people he always did. But he's willing to listen to them less when they point out issues. And a situation like an all-out war is exactly the kind of thing where they (and he) can write off his actions as "well, it's a war," and gloss over the implications. But Harry is a lot more chummy and comfortable with Lara throughout both books than he has ever been before. Last time they had a conversation about mutually supporting agendas, in White Night, he was still insulting her and telling her that he was willing to tolerate her and her activities to the extent that it served a greater good, but he still held her in contempt, morally, and was ready to get rid of her the moment her shenanigans got too morally expensive. There is not much of that in this pair of books. And you can use the excuse that his Winter obligation prevented him from threatening her, or bluffing that he was going to throw down with her when they both knew his obligations via Winter would prevent him from following through, but Old Harry would call that an excuse. He gets along pretty well with Lara & Mab in these books. Of his other circle of friends and acquaintances, he's lost Murphy, Michael has been sidelined and not seen him in action, Molly is in just as deep as he, Ebenezer blew up their relationship by treading on his approach to the rest of his family and Harry blew it up the rest of the way by fighting him over it, and Ramirez is seeing the worst in him, partly out of ignorance of what he's been going through and largely because of his own disastrous encounter with Winter in "Cold Case" (have you read "Brief Cases" or "Shadowed Souls", the anthology collections in which "Cold Case" appears?). The other guys he's tight with, like the Alphas or Butters, look up to him and are not comfortable questioning him over this kind of thing anymore. Part of it is Butters getting deeper into the action and depending on Harry to be his guide (Have you read "Day One"?), and part of it, I think, is his decision, prompted by Murphy in "Skin Game" to choose to have faith in Dresden, reinforced by his taking up the Sword of Faith, which kind of makes it part of the job requirements. And he doubted Harry in "Skin Game" with disastrous results, that will make him very wary of voicing or acting on similar doubts for quite some time. Another issue is Harry's hostility toward Marcone is more tempered with admiration than ever before, in spite of the fact that he's unquestionably a villain now that he has taken up a Blackened Denarius. Just a few books ago, that was Marcone's saving grace, that there were lines like that which he would not cross. Except now he has. There is also Harry (mis)quoting The Dark Knight, with "I'm the hero Chicago deserves". Which is one of the most famous quotes from that movie, second only to "You either die a hero, or live long enough to become the villain," Why else would Butcher have quoted that movie in the reflective aftermath of the main conflict, if he did not wanting us thinking of the thematic quote of the same film. Dresden is not Batman being persecuted for the sake of the city, he's Harvey Dent and his Rachel Dawes just got killed, in a RANDOM stroke of fate. None of this is an accident. Butcher is telling his that Harry Dresden is circling the drain of villainy. And that, BTW is the answer to the question about where does Butcher go to ramp up the villains after Ethniu. Harry himself. Besides fighting the Outsiders to save reality from Empty Night, the arc of the finale of the series is going to be Harry finding redemption and pulling up from going full villain. That's why I think the guy for whom Harry is holding Amoracchius is going to be himself, that he's gong to wield it after giving up his evil accoutrements, like the Winter Mantle and possibly black magic and maybe even a Blackened Denarius. I think he's going to stop himself from doing the final wrong thing at the least convenient moment, and he's going to lose all those extra things that make him such a force to be reckoned with, but are also corrupting him, and in order to save the day, he's going to wield Excalibur, the Sword of Love. A while ago, Butcher said that Book 18 (IDK if that was what he decided before or after the decision was made to split Peace Talks into two books, so that might not be the next one to actually come out) was going to be called "Mirror Mirror" as a reference to the original Star Trek episode of the same name, where they encounter an alternate reality where everyone is morally reversed, and we get to see villainous versions of the main characters. So there's probably going to be a lot of reflecting (get it?) on himself and his state of being in that one, and two books later, it's book 20 and time for the Denarians to come back (as they were in books 5, 10 & 15). In Judeo-Christian-influenced society, their mythological background represents the ultimate temptation to evil. And there are hints that Nicodemus has the ultimate temptation for Dresden in his back pocket - the idea that Harry can serve the greater good by allying with Nicodemus, as he has already made similar choices to do so with Mab, with Marcone, with Lara, with the Erlking and with Lasciel's shadow. And each book, Harry has dipped progressively deeper into their pool. First he fought Nicodemus, but accepted Marcone's help to do so, then he had to save Marcone from them, and also was duped by them into bringing the Archive within their reach and forced him to risk the coins and Sword of Faith to rectify that, and then he was made to help Nicodemus, and despite his efforts to thwart the Denarian plot, Nicodemus still got away with the Grail, and it turned out he was serving Marcone's agenda the whole time. Who it ALSO turns out is a Denarian himself. In book 20, when Nicodemus and Lasciel come back, Harry's going to be even further into the the abyss, maybe even working on their side, as Nicodemus has offered and hinted at in the past. I would not be surprised to see Harry take up the coin again to either counter-balance Namshiel's aid to Marcone or else to ally with Marcone & Nicodemus for some agenda Dresden thinks will be worth the compromise. Butcher has said that until he wrote "Changes" he did not know which "evil" Harry would embrace in order to carry out his rescue mission, that he could have taken up Necromancy and used the Darkhallow spell from Kemmler's works or else recalled Lasciel's coin and fought the Red Court as a Denarian. Instead, he decided to have Harry accept the mantle of the Winter Knight. But is it really in Butcher's character to forget about those alternatives? No, much more likely that as we get deeper into the stretch run, we become horrified at Harry embracing such evils to get the job done. Even if he won't be torturing babies for fun. George RR Martin quoted William Faulkner saying that the only stories worth telling are about the human heart at war with itself. That's where Harry Dresden's going to fight his greatest battle, for his own heart & soul. It's no longer about upping the stakes in villains by their stats, now it's going to be about antagonists who compromise Harry, rather than overpower him. The Doylist reason Ethniu was stupidly powerful was to push Harry to extremes to get the job done, to drive him to do things he'd oppose on other occasions, like using mortals as cannon fodder and so on. Now that he's on his way, new villains don't have to have Ethniu's overwhelming raw strength, they just have to offer Harry something to lash out at and decide he needs to cross more lines to get it done. With three or four books before the apocalypse trilogy, he doesn't need that many more villains, and I think they've mostly been introduced already, namely Ferrovax (note that HE was not one of the enemies whom she curbstomped), Drakul and Nicodemus, If the final book in the concluding trilogy is called "Empty Night" it's a pretty good guess who the enemy is there, and that's who was behind Ethniu in the first place.

[@Yanninyree]

Wow!! I LOVE your observations. I will start looking for your comments on other Dresden discussions. Do you have an opinion on Murphy’s death? Do you really think J.B. just dropped her from the story arc (in such a horrible manner) after putting her through SO much?

[@Gunleaver]

@@Yanninyree I think part of it was, as Gard pointed out, the climax of a life of being a warrior and one who lived by her principles and helped people no matter what. She kept choosing to help friends and do the right thing, and she kept paying the price, running afoul of the authorities. Murphy is not someone who accepts limitations. That's how she got Fidelacchius broken & her injuries. So she was never going to sit out the battle, and she was not 100%. Even Rudolph being her killer is representative of her true nemesis - police politics. So from a Watsonian standpoint, it was all in character. From a Doylist standpoitn, someone important needed to die to make the stakes matter in this fight. Also, it was time. She had been built up to a point of near invincibility, with how super-competent she had become. Each time Dresden fought the Denarians, a Sword Knight went down so I was afraid for Sanya going into Skin Game, but when he took Murphy for his backup, I was like "Okay, not to worry, Murphy won't get killed." Because Butcher never let her lose. So she was on the verge of breaking the setting until she got curb-stomped by Nicodemus. Butcher was also running out of things to do with her. Age-wise, bare minimum, she's in her mid-forties. She can't keep up the combat pace for much longer without preternatural help, and that's not Murphy. Too, finally getting together with Harry leaves them nowhere to really go aside from happily ever after. And Murphy is both the character most likely to help Harry realize when he's going too far, and the person who could make him pull back. That person needs to not be there for the character arc I think is coming.

[@Crusatyr05]

Thanks Mike! Got into this series about the beginning of June and just finished Battleground today, because of your videos. It's been an epic summer with these books...Harry and I have enjoy a lot of Coca-Cola together. To get it out of the way...I'm terribly saddened by Murphy's fate, and I hope Harry will be able to communicate with her shade in the future for some extra closure. Another thing that bugs me is how Harry saves the city and everyone's lives, and the White Counsel, especially Carlos treats him like trash. It's not like Carlos doesn't have a Molly sized skeleton in the closet. I am also very excited to see where Jim goes with this Drakul/Black Court appearance, I was chilled by the graveyard confrontation and how the Black Court vampires took out the Wardens so effortlessly and quietly. My last comment is a prediction...The Eye Of Baylor should go to the Gatekeeper to rid of the Outsiders and their attack on the wall. I love this series! Thanks again Mike!

[@mikesbookreviews]

Ah, a fellow speed runner. We gotta wait now. Dang it.

[@mileswakefield2298]

In a weird way I like the fact Murphy died from something so stupid and mortal. She went toe to toe with some seriously bad supernatural threats and came out alive and often on the winning side. In the end it was not some epic powerful being that broght her down but simple human idiocy.

[@mikesbookreviews]

Oh, it's very realistic. Made me think of how Buffy could protect everyone from the demons and monsters, but couldn't protect her mom from ill health.

[@Trulee022705]

One of the things I love about the Dresden world is that there's so much going on and so many enemies out there doing stuff that you don't have to go bigger or badder with villains. Harry potentially can be his own worse enemy. We still don't know the full story of what it means to be Starborn.

[@WinnetouiriVamp1]

We’ve finally seen all 3 of the Walkers, who are the “knights of the ruling class of the outsiders”

[@Thekingofthenerdz]

But who is the king?

[@WinnetouiriVamp1]

Thekingofdanerds exactly, I want to see the royals of the outsiders

[@joshuareynolds23]

@@WinnetouiriVamp1 you know who the king's of the outsiders are Cthulhu and his siblings.

[@delphy2478]

i've read speculation that there might be a he who walks below and above

[@WinnetouiriVamp1]

John Kreinbring Mac hinted to Harry that there were only three walkers (don’t remember which book it was though)

[@shawns735]

Same here on the Murphy thing and tears... My wife asked me what was wrong too.. I just couldn't hold back the tears... I was doing audio though, and maybe the way Marsters did the read made it even harder to listen too AND keep my cool... I did see it coming and was waiting for it, but Jim wrote it so well, that it's definitely some of his best writing to date.. AND you are 100% correct on the McCoy thing... I thought there would be much more cold between them, BUT, I see it happening in a future novel as well.. That's not over...

[@seandalziel7414]

I never saw the twists Butcher set up in these two stories coming until they hit. I thought Harry was going to lose something else. But, he is pretty alone now. Which is BAD because Harry alone is a monster. Harry with the Alphas, Butters, Sonja, or Karen is humane Harry.

[@RubyStardust73]

I just finished hte audiobook yesterday and am now on my second read-thru but have no one to talk to about my reactions so it was great to find this video - thanks! i have a lot of similar feelings.

[@SantiNervi]

I loved Murph, and I'm with you that she isn't coming back. I think that I'm, in the bottom of my heart, still waiting for the miracle return but that would cheapen her death. I feel like Jim has been preparing us for her to go since Skin Game or PT. The part with Michael telling Harry that he was already letting her go felt like a punch to me because I realized that I was feeling the same even if she was one of my favourite characters.

[@7Seraphem7]

She is chilling in Valhalla with the rest of the Honored Dead. She is totally coming back for the BAT. The whole point of Valhalla was to give a place for the greatest, most badass warriors to chill and keep themselves ready to fight in Ragnarok.

[@colinmacaoidh9583]

@@7Seraphem7 Or she's been recruited into the Valkyries

[@chandlee3968]

I guess getting kicked out of the White Council didn’t have much follow up yet but I wish you would have discussed it. Harry seems like 007 and can’t keep a lover alive so the cliffhanger of the getting kicked out of the council got to me more. Then there was Butters getting something unknown granted to him from Mab, could that be a back door to resurrecting Murphy? I think I’m gonna slow down with my 2nd read through and analyze that interaction more... Good review!

[@jonathonbartos3061]

Did anyone else notice a particular quote from Nemesis at the end of the book, "Armageddon isn't an event, so much as a state of mind," or close enough? I swear that line was used by Nicodemus in "Death Masks", but I don't have it available to me right now. If I'm right... hoo boy. That would indicate a connection between Nicodemus and Nemesis, and that is a combo that is utterly terrifying.

[@WayTooManyNames]

He totally did mention something exactly to that effect in Death Masks, although I don't have the direct quote. That is a terrifying idea, although personally, I think that Nicodemus was deluded ages ago by Nemisis and maybe the fallen as well. It would explain why he feels he is the only one on the sane or good side.

[@shawngillogly6873]

That's why Harry blinks after Nemesis said it. Because he recalled Nicodemus saying it. I suspect Nemesis predates the Fallen.

[@jonathonbartos3061]

@@WayTooManyNames Oh, crap. I just thought of something. A constant theme in the Dresdenverse is that supernatural entities don't have free will. They cannot act against their nature. However, we saw in "Cold Days" that Nemesis allows them to act against their nature (Maeve being able to lie, etc.). So, how could a freaking angel actually fall from grace? The answer: Nemesis. The Fallen are absolutely connected to Nemesis. They have to be, by the rules set up previously. How did I not see this earlier?!

[@annea587]

@@jonathonbartos3061This reply is late but holy shit you are on to something. Nemesis might have manipulated not only the Fallen in the coins but Lucifer himself.

[@ethanedwards7834]

Man, I just finished Battle Grounds for the first time and I could not put it down. I agree that the loss of Murphey just breaks your heart. And you know it's a packed book when Drakul and Harry getting booted from the white council aren't worth mentioning. I felt bad for Ramirez in this one. Dude loses his team and from his perspective gets betrayed by Harry. I'm really looking forward to the next one.

[@nicolebrown4376]

THANK! YOU! SPOILERS: Especially on how you don’t just off my girl like that. You can’t just decide you’re bored with a woman and off her just so you can make it convenient for you to get to watch your next fantasy with Laura and let me guess, probably Molly. There are 5 characters you can’t do like that and not have your fans disappointed and feel like a promise was unfulfilled: Michael, Murphy, Maggie, Molly, Thomas. Apparently you’re big on “M” names. They CAN die but they can’t die meaningless stupid deaths. Also now no one is worried Dresden will ever be tempted to be bad because if that didn’t do it nothing will. “my heart will heal someday” my ... butt. If he’s already moving on by the end of that book he never deserved her in the first place. Man I’m way more angry than I thought, big disagreement on that one choice. It was nothing like changes or death masks. Just that one part was not done right in my opinion. Sure it was battle heavy but that was expected. Everything else was good but that one thing ruined it for me and I can only think of one way that it can even be redeemable. Sucky feeling coming away from that book! If Dresden is not a dysfunctional mess from now on then I don’t want to read about him anymore and if he is then I don’t want to read it either because it will be too depressing. There better be more to her story. Real men can’t leave a woman behind that easy. You can’t just move him through all the females like dominos or or like how you go through videos on a computer when you’re alone at night. Man I am mad. Super mad. Not in the way a book is supposed to make you mad either. Not to mention there was still stuff about how her dad died that could have been explored, or her crazy family, x-husband stuff... There was so much still there. FFFHVRGXHDHBEBSHDHE!!! MAD!

[@tonygorsuch5658]

you are not alone in your thinking after 17 books id grown rather attached to her too ( to say the least ) ..... but Murphy's not so dead . at the end Gard states Murphy's and Hendricks bodies had vanished taken i guess to wherever Odin keeps his fallen ( there's a few possibilities ) . the Dresden stories finish with an Apocalypse spread over 3 books we are told i think. . Sounds like the sort of thing Odin might empty out Valhalla for just as Dresden is in trouble or more likely about to do something stupid she'll show up Conan style ( if you've read the stories ) After all do you want to live forever ? < should add this isn't so much a reply to you as me venting / agreeing with you ;/ >

[@nicolebrown4376]

Tony Gorsuch Thanks, I did think of that at least to the extent that I think Jim Butcher still has options. I see now he was trying to go for the irony of a little normie human lasting through all these crazy battles against off the charts powerful, inhuman beings and then suddenly being gone because of an accident and a sucky cowardly human rat like that. I guess I just got worried that Jim got bored of her. I hope you’re right and I know he’s a great author so in all honesty I know I’ll keep reading. I just want the story to do certain characters the justice they deserve I guess. Thank you for your reply!

[@METALMAN-gp2kw]

Murphy/s death, and Harry's reaction, was the first time I truly cried while reading a fiction book.

[@fasdaVT]

I think this book and peace talks hint that Harry is Merlin and Mab is Molly. Look at all of Merlin's stuff that harry has collected. Merlin made demonsreach but then didn't name it? Harry's name is also retroactive because the island is in several times at the same place. As for Mab she loved Merlin, Ethinu said she remembered when she first met Mab with Merlin and her relationship seemed to parallel to Molly and Harry and I'm suspicious of that in a series that has time travel. Then in this book she tell Harry to kill Molly if she dies because she isn't ready yet. Again if Mab is a future Molly and that the future can be changed, then Mab doing too early is a possibility and she would know that this isn't the right time and that things have gone off the rails timeline wise. And before you ask why didn't Mab know important things ahead of time because time is changable, thing don't happen the same way twice. Also it's why Mab can't marry Lara. When she was mortal she loved Harry as the fairy queen she's more fixed in that and can't marry anyone but Harry now that he's here especially now that he's close to being Merlin. I also want to point out that the farther along the series the nicer Mab is to Harry because he is closer to being her Merlin.

[@jellevanbreugel325]

ok stop it. My head is spinning 🤣

[@ZabreDarklight]

That is actually a fascinating idea :)

[@hippy8011]

Harry has a track record for naming things. Remember that giving things names gives them agency, so giving a prison agency is likely a REALLY REALLY BAD IDEA in the long term. What if Demonreach decides to release all the prisioners after his agency has grown? Also, I bet the english guy in demonreach is merlin. He's in stasis (like the legends of merlin say) because he feels horrible about creating the winter mantle and consigning his lover, Mab, to such a life. Harry will realize who is is, free him, and then reunite with Mab for the final battles.

[@fasdaVT]

@@hippy8011 we only know him by voice. That could just be harry putting on an accent.

[@markwatson8714]

@@hippy8011 In the original myth it's Mab who tricks Merlin into being imprisoned in the crystal cave. Which would kind of fit with Mab's character; Merlin would be far too powerful to risk letting run loose, but far too useful to destroy. Convincing him to build some kind of containment to hold beings of exceptional power, then stashing him in it as a kind of last ditch tactical nuke would be just her style.

[@r.babylon2885]

Dresden being referenced as a monster has been an ongoing thing throughout the series. It's just becoming more common with his power escalation. By Dead Beat, he's burned down 4 buildings, started a war, killed his uncle, made bargains with demons, killed a fairy queen, combatted ghosts/sorcerers, and stopped an army of necromancers. In Dead Beat his friends already mention he's scary in general.

[@Griffinater3]

A few thoughts, as far as power creep among villains think we are forgetting how many of the Dresdenverse's heaviest hitters haven't been brought to bear yet. The Merlin and The Gatekeeper for instance while not the Council's go to hitters have to have some serious magics in reserve. Nor have we seen the Mothers who we know are much more powerful than the current Queens. Personally I am most exited to see what Ferrovax can do and am eagerly anticipating the upcoming "Dragon Book". I suspect as a big fan of classical mythology, Jim might have written Murphy's death to be more in that vein than a modern one. Achilles for instance, the greatest hero of the Illiad is slain not by his greatest foe, Hector, but by cowardice and subterfuge by Paris' poisoned arrow. Herakles similarly is not defeated by strength but is killed when his wife is tricked into poisoning him. On the whole I can't say this was anywhere near my favourite Dresden book, I suspect I am among the few to much prefer the Peace Talks part of the overall story, but I really loved the conversations with Mab about the nature of Winter, sacrifice, and the loneliness of heroism.

[@kanis999]

Agree with everything you said, there are indeed beings in the Titan's weight class out there. In fact, when Mab told Harry to "call her, she's responded to you before" (referring to Titania), I thought Mother Winter was going to get involved and be the Titan's equal. It is also implied that Ferro in his true form would indeed be on the same power scale as the eye.

[@tomdeboerio3639]

Also, is it just me or is it very confirmed in this book that Ebenezar black staff is the cane of Mother Winter ? From the old woman shadow behind him when he used it.

[@whathanul5798]

In Peace Talks, Harry actually won that battle with his grandfather. Harry won by making a point and showing his grandfather he had his reasons and his grandfather was making a serious error. The illusion may have died but they both lived and what was needed was explained between the 2. With all that happening they understand each other and there shouldn't be too bad of blood.

[@aaronk8440]

Yeah it was Small Favor that he grabbed up Thorned Namshiel’s coin.

[@MatthewArters]

Battle Ground was unreal. The scene of Butters cutting a path smiting enemies and healing allies was so beautiful. Mike, your point about Ebenezar is valid. I was also a bit confused by their relationship between Peace Talks and Battle Ground. I guess the end of the world just hit a strong pause on their personal conflict.

[@Book_of_Grudges]

I shutter to think on Harry’s grandfather’s reaction to Harry’s “engagement” to Lara. Safe to say he won’t take it well.

[@williamhadley549]

Had the exact same thought. Next book is going to be super interesting. Black Court shenanigans, and we get to find out what being Starborn really means, what the prophecy is, what the final war with the Outsiders is really going to be be like. Drakul being Starborn, and this mysterious double agent Listen fella, only adds. This maybe isn't a Horry Potter 'You're the chosen one' thing, could be a number of people.

[@calebsaenger3344]

@@williamhadley549 Also there is the actual wedding, which has to be something big, with it being an alliance of two members of the accords. Even Will and Georgia's wedding was interfered with, and they are much lower in the standings of the supernatural

[@jonathonbartos3061]

For everyone who is pissed at how Murphy died, and saying she deserved to get more of a "go out in a blaze of glory", she actually already got that moment. Her showdown with Nicodemus in "Skin Game" was that moment, when she stepped to someone way out of her league and paid the price. This was just dotting the i's and crossing the t's, so to speak.

[@phatpat63]

It was arbitrary. Just a random thing, for no good reason. You could remove her death from the book and it would change nothing. Deaths of minor, one-off characters in this series have been more impactful. It reads like fan fiction, or like the actress who played her was leaving over a dispute with the production company so she had to be written off the show asap.

[@7Seraphem7]

Also, she got taken to Valhalla, you don't get any higher proof that you went out an utter badass then that. She took down a freaking Juton!

[@jeffshattuck4973]

7Seraphem7 Murph was always a badass, even before she “believed” in all the stuff Harry has introduced to her.

[@LemmingOfEvil]

Question I have to ask: If you had a choice to vote Rudolph or Moash (SLA) off the proverbial island, whose gotta go first?

[@mikesbookreviews]

Rudolph

[@dresdenwarlock7978]

I knew Justine was up to SOMETHING. I didn't even consider Nemesis taking her over, though.

[@mikesbookreviews]

Same.

[@jkmaze1]

i did, the warning to watch out for a back stab a trator youd least expect... remember justine was wheelchaired bound for awhile during a book where ppl are using curses fueled by outsiders... b4 you know it she is working the front desk for the more or less Queen of the white court.. and thriving... the corner hounds being summoned right after harry left her apartment was the last straw for me... i will say i was more expecting her being influenced by outsiders, not being a walker herself but still called it

[@christopherwoodson7586]

@@jkmaze1 I figured she got a coin so she could live forever with Thomas. Didn’t realize Nemesis jumped into her after leaving Cat Sith. But I see it now.

[@SunGawdRa]

Ditto. And for that DAMN LONG.