The Ecclesiology of The Early Church w/ Fr.John Whiteford

[@Orthodoxy.Memorize.Scripture]

I left behind Protestant Evangelicalism after 24 years after finding the Orthodox Faith and Church. It’s amazing.

[@michaelbarber5633]

I was raised Baptist and came home to Orthodoxy 20 years ago. Never once looked back. May God bless your journey and struggles.

[@vaporizejello]

40 years a Protestant. Recently Orthodox. Man, what I difference. Never been more at Peace.

[@garyhogan7881]

Please pray for me, a cradle protestant, late in life, discontent with protestantism. I was considering Roman Catholicism, but the Pope is a serious roadblock for me. Another great scripture on this topic is from Ephesians 4: "...one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father..."

[@thesampo]

I was in your position 4 years ago. I went to an Orthodox Parish and I've never looked back. The Orthodox have preserved the teaching of the the apostles including the concept of the church as a hospital for our souls which are sick with sin. The Catholic understanding changed to seeing the church as a courtroom. It seems small but it is a huge difference.

[@TheTransfiguredLife]

May he lead you home. Great scripture! ☦️

[@SeraphimvanHelden]

Praying for you. May this wonderful scripture lead you to the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church. ( which is the Orthodox Church ☦️)

[@josephodoherty7864]

​​@@thesampo Why the weird lie about the RC Church changing from "a.hospital" to "a courtroom"? Not true. Not only bizarre but so very far from the truth. You must have some more personal reason to generate the pretense. The RCC could hardly be accused of becoming more judgemental or harsh over the last 50+yrs & inflexibility on philosophical/theological theories that have no direct bearing on salvation is not at all a RC characteristic so not legalistic in that sense. Such a courtroom model would actually apply more to the absolutism of those who would blame their particular personal hang ups about the papacy on abstract theories about the relationship within the Trinity which the RCC is very willing to be flexible about. - I'm starting to see a pattern here😁

[@josephodoherty7864]

@garyhogan7881 ?? The idea of the pontiff at the top of the Orthodox Church would surely be as much of a problem? And the same roots of Apostolicity from the Apostles and the specific role of Saint Peter equally an issue. Let's not pretend otherwise that really would just be sectarian.

[@feeble_stirrings]

It really struck me when I heard someone once say "No where in the Scriptures does God encourage or allow men to worship him in any manner they choose. It's always detailed and structured according to His commands."

[@wilsontexas]

Yes. And Mary worship isn't part of that.

[@feeble_stirrings]

@@wilsontexas Agreed! I hear a lot about “Mary worshipers”, but I’ve yet to encounter one in the wild.

[@franciscosanchezpascua5030]

@@wilsontexas.... Wow! What an ill-informed person are you to say that Orthodox Christina’s worship Mary.

[@ericaverrier3197]

I'm so glad I stumbled upon this channel. I am certain the Lord, in all his mercy, is behind it 😊. I'm protestant of the charismatic non-denominational persuasion, but my heart has been opened to the beauty and truth of Orthodoxy, and I have to say that once you see it, you can't unsee it. Please pray for me on this journey ❤.

[@TheTransfiguredLife]

@@ericaverrier3197 Glory to God! And Erica, so true. Once you see it's hard to unsee. Will certainly pray for your journey. Thanks for sharing with us. Much love! ☦️💙

[@yordanosamare9793]

Ethiopian Orthodox here. I would say that "the faith delivered unto the saints" is definitely not up for negotiation in our church too, especially matters related to worship. The healing of schisms is such a Great hope ; they are only source of much pain and tears. I also want to point out that when Fr. was speaking about Monophysites, it better be understood as Miaphysites if it was referring to Oriental Orthodox churches because they TOO condemn Monophysitism that teaches something along the lines of "one nature swallowed the other". I listen a lot of Eastern Orthodox fathers online and I always get struck by how similar their teaching and understanding in theology and as a whole Christianity is with my church. Its a miracle considering hundreds of years of separation and isolation! Long live Fr. and May God help Orthodoxy

[@TheTransfiguredLife]

Thanks for your comment. By God's grace may we see a reunion in our lifetime. ☦

[@itsmelorijayne]

I love listening to Fr.Whiteford, he's like a Mike Tyson in the ring of church history!

[@untoages]

Really good conversation 💪🏻 Fr. John never disappoints!

[@JesusChristKing]

Excellent study. Please invite Mr. Ortlund for a Biblical discussion with Fr. Whiteford. Ecclesiology has Orthodoxy written all over it, so it would surely be a blessing for our fellow Protestant brothers to embrace the fullness of Christ’s Church as founded by the Apostles.

[@sergioayala4379]

Beautiful and Inspirational Program as always as the Faith of the Apostles, the Faith of the Fathers, The Faith of the Martyrs and All of the Saints is the Faith of the Orthodox!

[@nikkilengyel]

"Hippie Frank" as a nickname for Pope Francis cracked me up 😂 Great talk, I enjoyed a lot and learned something new! 😊

[@acekoala457]

@@nikkilengyel It's from a channel called "Lutheran Satire"

[@nikkilengyel]

@@acekoala457 it's gold 😂

[@aussiebloke51]

Concerning Bishops: A quick look at English Bible translations - older translations and those coming from churches with an episcopal structure (eg KJV) use the word "bishop". Newer translations, and especially those from protestant translators use the word "overseer" and in some cases "elder". The Literal Standard Version translation of the Bible and their translation of Ignatius of Antioch also translates the word as "overseer". Not only do these translations dumb down the text, they also subtly change ecclesiology to fit their protestant paradigm.

[@hyweldda56]

One of the greatest arguments for the Orthodox Church is the Creed. “One, holy, Catholic and apostolic church”. Whatever that is it certainly is not protestant.

[@wilsontexas]

But it isn't orthodox. It says catholic. You are so daft.

[@jonathannunn2266]

Thank you for the video 🙏

[@LadderOfDescent]

A really interesting video would be about how the early church evangelized. It would be interesting if there were any documentation on what people said to outsiders. Besides the catechetical lectures and the book of acts etc

[@jeremiahjames1506]

Pelekons book on the Catholic Church 100-600AD talks a lot about that. Most of the time it was spent defending against Jews gnostics and pagans

[@dezdaking]

Great discussion gentlemen. Learned a few things from this. God bless ☦☦☦☦

[@TheTransfiguredLife]

@@dezdaking Glory to God! Appreciate it fam. ☦️✊🏾

[@JacquelineRPrice]

Thanks so much, as usual, you guys put out a great video. I was pausing it and taking copious notes!

[@Counterflow]

Great great episode!

[@GopnikVlad]

Imagine Great Grandmother Lola had a recipe for Chocolate Walnut cake, and it is handed down for generations…now, your sister copies some parts of the recipe, but substitutes walnuts with peanuts and changes a few other ingredients. Is that Grandma Lola’s Chocolate Walnut cake anymore?

[@Abr1895]

Lord Have Mercy on Grandma Lola

[@TheTransfiguredLife]

Quite frankly, I think that is a GREAT analogy!

[@gloriaharlowdrummondjesusi7306]

Please do a part 2. I’m thinking orthodoxy. Very serious about it

[@kaylacarter6817]

What I'm struggling with right now is that I am attempting to transition out of protestantism. I know I am being looked at as though I am breaking communion with the church because of a recent comment that was made to me by someone that I know means well, but I don't think fully understands all of church history. Idk how to navigate this!

[@J..P..]

Easy. Follow Christ. Enter into the Church and be the best Christian and friend you can be. Some will understand and retain their friendship and recognize the grace of God working in your life, others will not and will remove themselves from your circle of friends. Nothing can be done about that. You will have a new family in the Church and, Lord willing, some of your Protestant friends will eventually follow. But if the question is between peer pressure and Christ, you choose Christ everytime.

[@kaylacarter6817]

@@J..P.. I know that you are right. Maybe it would be easier on me if I was going through this transition at another point in my life, rather than right after my entire life literally just fell apart. I know it isn't right to cling to something for fear of losing it.

[@annalynn9325]

So many of us here have been in your shoes and know how hard the transition is. Yes, I have lost friendships. But whenever we go through hard times there are bound to be close relationships that we lose. In my experience, God is not taking from you, He is actually protecting you when those relationships end. Trust God that when you seek Him, He will be faithful to you. You will lean in and so will He ❤

[@ChristopherSheridan-fe8ts]

Kayla. Appreciate your transparency. Am another who’s “landed” here after 2 years of life crisis. i say no better time and better direction to turn than toward the most pure version of truth when every other wordly rug has been pulled out from underneath us.

[@TheTransfiguredLife]

Appreciate your transparency Kayla. We understand these kinds of transitions come with their challenges. If you would like to connect with Fr.Jonathan through zoom for some assistance we're happy to help! "[e-mail]"

[@acekoala457]

The Government Analogy is a good one.😊

[@theeliteelite1873]

Very interesting stuff. I was raised Protestant and have recently come to the conclusion that it's incorrect and am exploring Catholicism and Orthodox. Asking for prayers for the Lord's guidance to lead me to what is correct and what church He desires for me to be in.

[@chasereed7141]

I've been going to an Greek Orthodox church lately and am so close to wanting to become a cathehumen. The biggest hurdle for me to submit to is this idea that those outside eastern Orthodox church are not Christian. Yes I believe that prior to the Protestants and great Schism there was indeed only one true church and those outside it were probably lost. But in light of that I have a hard time believing that billions of people who do claim to be Christian are lost. Sure some are just like some Orthodox are. Not all who claim Lord lord are known to Christ. Having said that the more I learn the more I believe that Orthodox have the fullness of the faith. It's hierarchical for sure. Also there seems to be different ideas on this amongst Orthodox fathers. The father that did a talk with Gavin Ortlund considered him a brother in Christ. Even though Gavin tried to tell him historically the Church would consider Ortlund damned. Not sure what to make of this. But I'm trying.

[@mathieuconklin3146]

Luke 18:8 "But yet the Son of man, when he cometh, shall he find, think you, faith on earth?"

[@NavelOrangeGazer]

Reading Fr. Georges Florovsky's essay on "separated bretheren" might help.

[@johnnyd2383]

Try not to mix secular humanism feelings with the reality of the Church. Lord created ONE Church and nowhere it is said it will branch off... on the contrary, we have parable of the mustard seed that speaks of the one Church growing. Elsewhere, Bible talks about Lord's Bride and Him being a Bridegroom. Nowhere it is said He is polygamist. Another parable of smart and foolish virgins also talks about those who await Bridegroom but in vain.

[@SaltShack]

To be Orthodox you must believe there is no Salvation outside of the Church. How and when Christ brings people to the Church is his authority. The thief crucified with him wasn’t Baptized or Chrismated but there’s no doubt he was in heaven with Christ that very day. The problem with Protestantism especially American Evangelicalism is there is no confidence that you are avoiding heresy. The thief on the cross didn’t know heresy his fundamental faith expressed no error that developments outside the Body of Christ have had the time to generate. And no heresy has greater impact in my opinion than an individual can sit at his or her kitchen table and believe the Holy Spirit is guiding you to true interpretation. It could happen but the problem is how and when will you know. The Saints often didn’t know until it was recognizing after their death by a multitude of witnesses. Good people with bad or heretical beliefs about God, Christ, the Holy Spirit and His Church aren’t bad people, but they are wrong and that may have ramifications.

[@machinotaur]

Many "Christians" are essentially trans folk: just because you say you're something doesn't mean you are. How can you follow Christ when you have incorrect Christology? But I know many of the heterodox are true at heart, they simply have not been exposed to Orthodoxy. We can't and won't judge them, God forgives.

[@Eli-x1l]

Quick question: What would an orthodox missionary/evangelist tell someone while has never heard about Jesus or the church? What do you say to someone who is on their death bed who was never a part of the church? I’m curious

[@J..P..]

They would tell them about Christ, His Church and the salvation of mankind. The man on his deathbed can receive an emergency baptism and receive his last rites, which would entail a confession to the best of his abilities and the reception of Holy Communion.

[@justanotherlikeyou]

I'm surprised, Fr. Jonathan, when you mentioned the schisms that have been healed that you didn't mention the healing of the schism between Antioch and Jerusalem this past November. That's the most recent one I know of.

[@TheTransfiguredLife]

Yes, thank God for that. It was not meant to be a complete list, however.

[@jacob6088]

Just as the Person of Christ the God-man is one and unique, so is the Church founded by Him, in Him, and upon Him. The unity of the Church follows necessarily from the unity of the Person of the Lord Christ, the God-man. Being an organically integral and theanthropic organism unique in all the worlds, the Church, according to all the laws of Heaven and earth, is indivisible. Any division would signify her death. Immersed in the God-man, she is first and foremost a theanthropic organism, and only then a theanthropic organization. In her, everything is theanthropic: nature, faith, love, baptism, the Eucharist, all the holy mysteries and all the holy virtues, her teaching, her entire life, her immortality, her eternity, and her structure. Yes, yes, yes; in her, everything is theanthropically integral and indivisible Christification,* sanctification, deification, Trinitarianism, salvation. In her everything is fused organically and by grace into a single theanthropic body, under a single Head-the God-man, the Lord Christ. All her members, though as persons always whole and inviolate, yet united by the same grace of the Holy Spirit through the holy mysteries and the holy virtues into an organic unity, comprise one body and confess the one faith, which unites them to each other and to the Lord Christ. St Justin Popovich

[@SaltShack]

Ecclesiology is a big word and I’m a simpleton so what I have done and please forgive me and correct me if I’m wrong, is boil ecclesiology down to “authority”. Orthodox ecclesiology/authority is held by and or determined by the Holy Spirit evidenced by the enduring and resounding voices of the many defined by Scripture and described by Fr. Panayiotis Papageorgiou. Roman Catholicism wrestled away authority from the Holy Spirit and granted it to the Office of the Papacy. Protestant Reformers took the authority from the Papacy and delivered it conveniently to themselves and American Evangelicalism has optimistically given that authority to any individual with an opinion and a Bible who lacks the fear of God to use it.

[@traceyedson9652]

In regards to Fr John’s comments towards the end, while far, far less widespread, “liturgical abuse” & innovation in Orthodox liturgy aren’t unknown. Without being scrupulous hawks, we must keep vigilant over ourselves as ones not immune from corruption.

[@fr.johnwhiteford6194]

That's true, but you can find liturgical atrocities with bishops, cardinals, and even the Pope participating in them, which is not something you would find many even remote analogies for in the Orthodox Church... and when they do happen, they are condemned.

[@JacquelineRPrice]

I think William Lane Craig is leading a new group of Nestorians today. They're still around

[@pdstephens]

There are at least 14 different churches mentioned in the New Testament. The seven mentioned in Revelation each have their own individual lampstands, receive their own individual commendations or rebukes from the Lord Jesus based on their particular obedience to His Word.

[@TheTransfiguredLife]

And... your point is... exactly what? That they were SEPARATE churches, separate from one another, teaching their own thing, or... ? Can you elaborate? - Fr.Jonathan

[@wilsontexas]

@@pdstephens roman catholics have their own distorted and unbiblical definitions of words

[@Apinetree123]

Was the talk with Jared canceled? The Premier seemed to dissappear

[@TheTransfiguredLife]

@@Apinetree123 A few changes were made but the episode will be up today at the usual time.

[@TheRadChadDad]

☦️☦️☦️

[@Orthodoxy.Memorize.Scripture]

Timothy and Titus were sent as bishops over the churches and presbyters in those churches. So, yes, bishop and presbyter are used synonymously in one part of Scripture, yet distinctly in another part of Scripture. Polycarp mentions the two roles synonymously. Yet, Ignatius, Irenius and everyone else of the fathers early on understood clerical roles as 3, bishop, presbyter, and deacon.

[@megaloschemos9113]

💯🙏🏽

[@protestanttoorthodox3625]

❤️☦️🇺🇸

[@tammywilliams-ankcorn9533]

I’m confused. What happened to the Biblical office of elder? And Phoebe was a female deacon. She just wasn’t an elder.

[@El_Estudio]

Contrary to the teaching of modern Calvinists, to be Reformed simply means that you fall under a theology born during the Reformation-this could be Calvinist, Arminian, Zwinglian, Lutheran, etc. It's a mess, I know, but that is the historical meaning of "Reformed," and it refers primarily to soteriology.

[@jeromepopiel388]

Speaking of litergy, do the Orthodox consider their litergy to be an offering for sins as the Catholic Mass?

[@TheTransfiguredLife]

No, we do not see it ** specifically ** as that, although that is a part of it. -Fr.Jonathan

[@acekoala457]

In the same way that Christ gave the Apostles the Mystical Supper His Holy Spirit allows us to participate in the same Supper.

[@jeromepopiel388]

They ignore what St. Peter said... 1 Peter 5:1 [1]The elders which are among you I exhort, who am also an elder, and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and also a partaker of the glory that shall be revealed: Peter is an elder, same as others. That should answer the question but no, they only recognize their own traditions.

[@fr.johnwhiteford6194]

The word "presbyter" has the meaning of Elder in terms of age as well as an office. If you think St. Peter was just one among elders, a reading of the book of Acts would show otherwise. And if you deny that there were three levels of authority in the New Testament, how do you account for St. Ignatius of Antioch laying out those 3 levels? He was a disciple of the Apostle John, and was martyred around 112 a.d.

[@jeromepopiel388]

@@fr.johnwhiteford6194 I'm not thinking it. I couldn't know. St. Peter said it himself. Of course he had a much greater anointing. But remember how Paul came to correct him.

[@fr.johnwhiteford6194]

@@jeromepopiel388 You don't have non-Apostles running the Jerusalem Council in Acts 15. You also don't have non-Apostles overseeing multiple Churches. It is as plain as day, and a disciple of the Apostle John lays it out very clearly.

[@jeromepopiel388]

@@fr.johnwhiteford6194 If the Apostles were actively overseeing the churches in scripture, then in most cases they weren't doing a very good job.

[@jamespong6588]

It's funny how Protestants believe in such bizarre dogmas, like sola scriptura, the Early church didn't have a scriptura for 300 years

[@wordscapes5690]

I respect your religion, but… this kind of exclusivism makes it very hard to empathize with your cause.

[@jeromepopiel388]

Is the church fallible? Or can there be false teachers? 2 Peter 2:1 [1]But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. "False teachers among you" means they are in your church community and will be deceiving people,so the church is not a refuge from heresy.

[@fr.johnwhiteford6194]

That's a false dichotomy. Having false teachers doesn't prove the Church to be in error.

[@jeromepopiel388]

@@fr.johnwhiteford6194 of course not, but it is subject to error and deception. There is no absolute guarantee.

[@TheTransfiguredLife]

@@jeromepopiel388 Oh, no, you are wrong there. Jesus said, ** I ** will build my church, and the gates of hell will not prevail against it. Sounds pretty absolute to me.

[@wilsontexas]

Most catholics thinkbthe early church is after 250Ad when they started the hyper dulia of the queen of heaven.

[@acekoala457]

So you get your Canon for the NT from a false religion?

[@wilsontexas]

@@acekoala457 your assumption that the roman catholic church is the only church or that the writings of Paul are the writings of a roman catholic are absurd. Scripture would still be scripture without the catholic church.

[@acekoala457]

​@@wilsontexas But then by what authority do you determine what the Canon is? Because it's not something up for personal interpretation even in the Protestant Paradigm.

[@zealousideal]

I love Fr. Whiteford and was a good discussion. But as a catholic (and ex orthodox) this was very disingenuous. What I’ve noticed is that most orthodox priests have little to no true understanding of the Roman Catholic Church. Their understanding is lacking and equal to what protestants say and believe almost. It’s just the same rhetoric they keep repeating, not knowing the full story. These were all very bad examples, which prove that. I could have easily debunked him in every single accusation on this. You guys should really sit down and do one with a Roman Catholic apologist or theologian to get the full story. I was once on that side of the fence, so I know from experience as I used to say all those same things until I learned the truth. There’s only one truth, there’s not multiple truths. If you do your due diligence and research hard enough and go back and study all the early Saints and the councils (even the Eastern Saints) they literally all point to the Roman Catholic Church and there’s no doubt about it…at all, period. Otherwise, all the other points on church history and against Protestantism was great and I agree. I just wish all branches of Christianity can stop attacking one another and agree that we are all in Christ and seeking him (despite our faults or misunderstandings of theology). There’s not only going to be one faith group in heaven that’s for sure. I feel like we all make this much harder than it needs to be. Just follow Christ and live right according to scripture. We all know what is right and wrong. But yes it’s just much better to be in the fullness of the faith! Christos Anesti!

[@Yellow_Fish7]

Well, you said there's only one truth and not multiple at first and then said somehow Protestantism, Roman Catholicism and EO are all somehow part of the body of Christ which itself is completely ecumenist, heretical, modernist and akin to the prot teaching of "the invisible church" which is also very new.

[@esoterico7750]

Your example of all Christians being the church is actually a perfect example of were the modern Catholic Church has departed from the early church. I obviously can’t speak for everyone but I’ve put a lot of time into understanding catholic theology and it’s not “obviously” true. What exactly do we misunderstand and what issues are you referring to?

[@thesleepybardalwayswaiting5260]

I find that a lot of these orthodox personalities online routinly cast shade on protestants with an aura of smugness due to their insistance that they have the only true and therefor by default superior spiritual practice. However i cant help but feel a sense of disgust when i hear people speak like this whatever group they belong too whether they are a conservative owning a woke liberal or radical left leaning neo con talking about colonialism. I dont see anything usefilull in this discourse

[@TheTransfiguredLife]

Our speaking of Protestantism in the way and manner we do is because many of use have BEEN in, have lived in, the Protestant world, often for considerable time, and therefore know intimately the teachings of these groups. -Fr.Jonathan

[@TheTransfiguredLife]

Luther here. What shade was cast? Our heart's desire is to be respectful even when being critical of heterodox traditions. I'm sure we have fallen short on occasion but let's not lump all everyone in a bunch. We respect everyone.

[@gabrielgabriel5177]

Miyaphysits are the real orthodox

[@wilsontexas]

The early church didn't pray to Mary or the saints.

[@TheTransfiguredLife]

Oh yes they did! And, I'll prove that in an upcoming episode.

[@wilsontexas]

​@@TheTransfiguredLifeafter 250AD isn't early for me

[@TheTransfiguredLife]

​@@wilsontexasApparently a canon list isn't early enough for you either

[@wilsontexas]

@@TheTransfiguredLife how early is the canon list?

[@daniellewis5533]

​@@wilsontexas The final canon list was promulgated at the Council of Trullo (AD 692), and declared binding at the Seventh Ecumenical Council (AD 787). Prior to that, there was no set list of "books of the Bible", though local Churches had different lists. None of them had the 66 book list Protestants use today. That means that the Early Church-- that believed in Baptismal Regeneration, The Eucharist as Christ's Body and Blood, Bishops, intercession of saints, icons, etc.-- was nothing like modern Protestants' beliefs! You have to trust people you consider heretics to have given you the Bible. How did the historical Church get the books right but everything else wrong?