The Failure of Santa Fe Skyway

[@brianbobcat]

It's super interesting to look back on how government tried to keep companies from being vertically integrated, while now a days we have Amazon that controls literally every aspect of the company. Amazon has their own airline, planes, trucks, delivery vehicle and people, warehouses, cargo containers, and even rents out whole ships. Only thing they don't own is a railroad.

[@13stalag13]

yet!

[@krozareq]

Don't forget they own most cloud computing too.

[@howardkerr8174]

@@krozareq Actually, cloud computing is Amazon's major source of revenue at the moment and the foreseeable future. Personally, I find it extremely disturbing that the Pentagon came EXTREMELY close to awarding this mammoth conglomerate a contract for cloud services.

[@RCAvhstape]

More disturbing is that the modern tech giants like Amazon and Google do not even consider themselves "American" companies and will gladly do business with horrible overseas regimes for enough money. In their day companies like Santa Fe were staffed with patriotic war vets or their relatives, companies like Amazon are staffed by tech geeks brainwashed at college to abstain from military service and to believe that America is racist and backwards, while their bosses are hideously rich and powerful.

[@MyKharli]

@@RCAvhstape What bit of racist and backwards is wrong , have you seen your cities poor areas ! unless its a sneaky ironic post !

[@Reed81315]

This guy is a true KZbin historian. Content is the gold bar, narration doesn't put me to sleep, visuals are better than history or discovery channel. Just a great channel. Wishing you many subs

[@copper7136]

How his channel doesn’t have at least a million subscribers is mind boggling

[@DreitTheDarkDragon]

@@copper7136 For me this is a little like Technology Connections. I'm sure people will come if somebody pushes this channel to them a little :)

[@peterdibble]

Much appreciated!

[@madchocolettechip2397]

he is underrated because mostly unknown as we like this channel we need to share its fabulous content to suscitate more views in order to satisfy the algorithm and gave the guy behind it and the people who help him the recognition they deserve

[@JanJaapBats]

absolutely agree!

[@theminipetabyte4610]

Absolutely wonderful how the maps featured show the Santa-Fe Railroad Network beneath all the routes and flights shown to highlight their overlay.

[@TrainMaster26]

Its really interesting how railroads were turned down so frequently to join the air industry. I think Santa Fe Skyway could have become a big player in the air freight industry if they were allowed to become common carriers.

[@Kishanth.J]

I know CN and CP tried to enter the Airline business, do you know other example?

[@sirmetaladon]

I wonder if the ATB was right, in the end. That line at the end about how the ATSF was worth more than the entire air freight industry was spooky, not the least of which because railroads are notorious for trying to bury competition once they get a hold on things. In an alternate reality, this would be the tipping point where home-grown common carriers went extinct, to be subducted by railroad-backed giants.

[@TrainMaster26]

@@sirmetaladon Maybe, but then again, Santa Fe had nearly 100 years of experience. So it isnt that hard to see why they made more money.

[@jamesburns2232]

My Dad worked for the Post Office for 40 years. He said: "There were many ways to save money at the United States Postal Service, but the USPS always chose the politically correct solution over the better and cheaper one."

[@valvlog4665]

They may have become the forerunner to FedEx. Over night service between LA and SF, and CHI and NYC. We'll never know.

[@mackpines]

I knew Santa Fe had tug boats and train ferries but I never knew they tried to get into the airline industry. Very informative video.

[@emdxemdx]

It’s interesting to note that in Canada, both the Canadian National and Canadian Pacific had their own airlines (Trans-Canada Airlines → Air Canada & Canadian Pacific Airlines → CP Air). And during the 1960’s, Penn Central got nailed by the ICC for illegally operating an executive private jet charter service…

[@CallmeDaBreeze1971]

I work in the air freight Industry. I can only imagine what my Industry would like today had the ATSF been allowed to continue air freight service.

[@jeffbuckles]

I've tried watching _other_ documentaries on youtube. I swear the longest clip on some of them is no more than two seconds, with most 1 to 1.5. There's no time to LOOK at anything without constantly pausing and breaking up the audio. The frenetic pacing they use can be very frustrating. I have never felt that frustration watching your videos, and I think that's one reason I enjoy them so much. Thank you for not treating us like sugar-buzzed three-year-olds.

[@peterdibble]

😄 Thank you, Jeff! That sort of editing can drive me crazy too.

[@wintersbattleofbands1144]

@@peterdibble People do all sorts of stuff that's an Editing 101 no-no. Overlays with spelling and punctuation mistakes, or are not up long enough to actually read (the rule is, the average reader should be able to read it TWICE. yup.). Nice to see well researched and edited material here.

[@RobbieSongwriter]

Worst are most military documentaries, which show MANY clips that are short because otherwise you'd recognize that it is the wrong plane, tank or whatever in the clip or completely unrelated battle footage and you see clips repeated MULTIPLE times. The BEST war documentaries available are by Montemayor, who uses simple animations and authentic clips to give you a CLEAR understanding of important battles. Pearl Harbor, Coral Sea and 3 part Midway give clarity to these major events in history.

[@EannaButler]

"Flying over two million miles, without a single incident" - wow. Thanks for a great upload.. Subbed...

[@carlhaluss]

Absolutely one of the most interesting videos I have seen in a long time. Especially since I previously had no idea about Santa Fe Skyway, and it's many innovations. Top notch reporting and content. Thank you!

[@robertkelly8106]

Excellent video, shining the spotlight on a little-known piece of Santa Fe history. As it happens, Santa Fe was not the only North American railroad to go into the airline business. Canadian Pacific formed Canadian Pacific Airlines (which carried freight and passengers) in 1942 and operated until 1987 when it was merged into Canadian Airlines until that airline was absorbed into Air Canada in 2001. CP Air, as it came to be called, joined the railroad, CP Ships and CP Hotels as a comprehensive transportation company. While the Canadian government did not deny CP a license as the US did ATSF, it did limit which routes CP Air could fly, protecting Trans-Canada Air (ancestor of Air Canada) on the most lucrative routes. CP then pioneered routes from Vancouver to Asia and the Pacific as well as cities in Europe not served by TCA. In the US, CP served major cities on the West Coast from their operations center in Vancouver.

[@shnorth888]

Fun fact Canadian National controlled TCA and up to 1978 successor Air Canada, when in that year AC became a full fledge crown corp which was privatized in 1987

[@andxblink]

Your videos are some of the best on KZbin. Both in content selection and production quality. I greatly enjoy your work and thank you for that.

[@daybird2]

What a find this channel is. Great narrator as well as great content!

[@RD2564]

You've put a lot of effort into these excellent videos Peter, well done.

[@sammagictv]

This channel deserves more attention. Fantastic video, as always

[@tylers6709]

You do a wonderful job! This is a very interesting story that i would have never known about. I really enjoy what you do, and how you visually show what is happening. Also i would add that i especially appreciate the train content! Any further train videos would be awesome!

[@peterdibble]

Thanks a lot! I like to mix up the subject matter, but there are always more railroad history topics to explore. :)

[@nedmarc]

Your content and design sense are amazing!

[@ninjasonmylawn25]

I just discovered this channel today and I gotta say I'm really impressed. The production value is great but the topics are well researched and accurate which is the most important factor for me. Excellent work! I look forward to exploring your library.

[@johnopalko5223]

Well, Peter, you did it again. You don't upload often but, when you do, it's always been worth the wait. Obviously, your emphasis is on quality rather then quantity. Would that more KZbinrs followed your example.

[@Southwest_923WR]

Wow! Never knew of this, or heard anything about it. Thanks for info and visuals. Just goes to show you; "preferential treatment" can be a deterent to innovation and progress!

[@ralphdoggie]

Truly excellent in all respects -- story structure and details, graphics, appropriate video clips, and even the section titles.

[@chicagotypewriter2094]

Your channel's quality is simply astounding, a true hidden gem amongst the riffraff and rubbish on KZbin! This quality is near unparalleled and that thumbnail is great too! I'm so glad I found it!!!

[@jaifarrell]

Just discovered your channel. Really enjoyed this story. Superb production values too. Keep up the good work.

[@Bratsbergbanen1]

Hi Peter! This was very interesting for me as a train buff, and especially as a Santa Fe enthusiast. I would really encourage you to write a book about this subject (as well as the combined cross-country train and airline passenger service they had). I'm sure it would be a big hit among both air transport and railroad afficianados.

[@joeman1437]

Classy editing, a variety of topics across all your videos, informative narration, very nicely done overall I must say. Seeing as this is the first time I can recall seeing your content, I must say I'm rather impressed and I look forward to checking out more. You've earned my sub, along with many others today I'm sure.

[@peterdibble]

Thank you and welcome aboard!

[@usmale4915]

Very good. I never knew Santa Fe formed an airline...absolutely fascinating! Thank you for your very informative video. It's greatly appreciated!

[@PMass]

I always love to watch your videos when they come out. Some very highly quality content about some amazing subjects

[@MovieMakingMan]

Excellent video. It was very interesting. Thanks!

[@brandonbloomquist3267]

At 2 minutes in, that setup has me feeling like they attempted a way too early version of Amazon's shipping operation.

[@rhuephus]

ha ha ...Amazon does not have a railroad

[@kaifreeman294]

Very interesting story, this reminds me of how Pan Am was once a "BIG" top airliner back in the day but now it's being used for rail freight service.

[@rhuephus]

how is that possible when they CEASED operations in 1991 ????

[@amfm889]

@@rhuephus A small New England rail company bought the brand name, and slapped it on their railroad.

[@daviddunsmore103]

Great quality documentary! Excellent use of maps and beautiful vintage color footage at appropriate times, detailed research with well selected quotations, and upbeat period music too! I give this a hearty A+ all around! 😎

[@enigmawyoming5201]

I love that fitting, and period correct music! Great job, I’m glad I subscribed to your channel.

[@dustbowlhammer7119]

I bet Santa Fe would have become quite an airline! I never knew this before, great story!

[@DeanstuD]

I love your work. This is the best channel content since the history guy.

[@natethegreat5968]

It’s always a good day when you post

[@pauliedweasel]

Thanks you for a presentation on Santa Fe Skyway, I had seen various short articles about this over the years but nothing in-depth like yours. In April of 1995 after a 22 year career with Hewlett-Packard came to an end I had the great privilege of working for the Santa Fe Railway as a telecommunications technician before that dark day five and a half months later in September of that same year when we merged with that patchwork of a railroad the Burlington Northern to become the BNSF which is currently owned by Warren Buffet’s Berkshire Hathaway Holdings. We Santa Fe people often referred to the new organization as the Big Nothing So Far of the Butt Nugget Santa Fe.

[@SignalLightProductions]

Spectacular video as always! Very professional and informative.

[@Ice43758]

Another high quality video, great job!

[@xXRedTheDragonXx]

I totally agree with Santa Fe on this one, they should've been allowed to fly. It really feels like the government introducing the law that said that applicants under review could operate as common carriers except if they're already a railroad was the final nail in their coffin. They were singled-out, and it really felt like the US Government overstepped their bounds here. Imagine the innovation that we could've had if their plans had come to be... They seemed so forward thinking and willing to expand in a good way.

[@wintersbattleofbands1144]

Yup. Today, we see DHL, UPS, FedEx all operating airplanes and trucks... Why not combine with rail for a seamless and less expensive service.

[@larrybrennan1463]

The Federal government had been hostile to the railroad industry since the Wilson administration.

[@PRH123]

FedEx’s launch in 1973 was made possible by changing the relevant air carrier legislation, without that the business could not have been launched, they also would have been consigned to essentially air taxi operations

[@xBINARYGODx]

lots of cargo does ship on rails, just no generally anything you ship, because no, it would not be economical, or rather, it might be if that rail was not be put to better use transporting things that you generally don't want to be transported on busy roads. The split is almost firm or logical, but its exists. that said, I know amtrack (etc.) does some regular shipping, but mostly your packages are truck with a side of air.

[@chemech]

@@larrybrennan1463 And the top bureaucrats at the time of denying Santa Fe were under the Truman administration, which was a continuation of the FDR administration, which was a reincarnation of the Wilson administration... Looking back with historical perspective, it was a long shot gamble by Santa Fe to try to get CAA licensing to operate...

[@BogWraith1]

Peter, an absolutely stellar production! I'm a huge fan of what was the best railroad in existence IMO, but I never even knew about Skyway. Thank you for making this wonderful documentary. Instant subscriber! People need to know about your channel so as to grow your subscriber count!

[@peterdibble]

Thanks a lot!

[@jonwebb2300]

Great video. A huge corporation at the time like Santa Fe started what could easily be a substantial air freight carrier and augmented by one of the largest railroad companies is a strategic stroke of genius that indeed would do the public at large a huge service at reasonable cost and efficiency. What an incredible shame that the US government would destroy this.

[@3henry214]

I enjoyed this video every bit as much as your "Failure of the SPSF Rail Merger". Excellent Job!!

[@hansssnet]

This is a really well made video keep up the great work!

[@alextomlinson1725]

A fascinating and very well presented video Peter. Thank you.

[@bossprime369]

Excellent documentaries.

[@rutaloot]

Great content, please keep it up, really enjoy your videos!

[@jeffreyhunt1727]

Fantastic video! I love all the content that you're creating. Please keep it up!!

[@islanduck]

Another masterpiece Peter! I need MORE!!!

[@terryaltherr2481]

I thought this was going to be about the planes that substituted the Super Chief so the passengers could take the plane by day and the train at night but this was even more interesting than I anticipated. Great work!

[@scofab]

First of your videos I've seen... well done. Subscribed.

[@michaela.chmieloski3196]

Very interesting story of one venture within the rail industry of which I was previously unaware, thank you for presenting it. Reminds me of when the Pennsylvania Railroad attempted to get into the PASSENGER airline business. If I recall correctly, the same cry of "Monopoly!" was used to helped put an end to that venture.

[@kevinkurtz9889]

Letting our railroads go to hell was a big mistake. Given a choice of flying or by rail, I'll take the rail.

[@andrewkeeney701]

Excellent program and I learned something!! :-) Thank you, Andy K

[@DasMoose9001]

Never heard of this channel and I frequent like channels... Subbed, happily. Great presentation, and obvious time went into the research behind the subject. Thank you!

[@Uncle_Fred]

Another great one. Imagine this level of anti-monopolistic oversight from the federal government today.

[@J-1410]

I don't really think it was anti-monopolistic, more so lobbyist power.

[@iannarita9816]

The real problem with regulation was it was a lot easier to stop something then to start. When the transportation industry was (at least partially) deregulated, transport companies really took off.

[@blackhawk7r221]

All about lobbyists greasing palms

[@tim3172]

@@iannarita9816 Stop something then to start? Isn't everything stopped and then you start?

[@joshroller9449]

It's incredible how the country post WWII turned its back on railroads. While policies can and have changed in many sectors - simple evolution - if FedEx wanted to buy/start a railroad, I bet they'd be allowed. Or if BNSF - Santa Fe's successor, wanted to start an airline, I bet they'd be allowed, too.

[@ronniewall1481]

THE ELITE ARE WEIRD. AND EVIL

[@rhuephus]

ha ha .. Buffet does not like airline stocks .. the odds of him starting his own airline is almost zero

[@WesternOhioInterurbanHistory]

Burlington Northern did

[@ericcsuf]

Well-researched and interesting with relevant visuals. Great job. Thanks.

[@DelftTrains]

Amazing video Peter, I enjoyed it!

[@torgeirbrandsnes1916]

Great vlog. This was new to me. Keep up the good work. Greetings from Norway!

[@bierbrauer11]

Interesting that in your closing you call it a “missed opportunity” but what I gathered from the rest of the context was more that they were screwed out of the opportunity. Anyways, I don’t know anything about these topics lol and just enjoy what I am learning about rail from your videos so far. Another good one!

[@1allanbmw]

It seems like only when other airlines complained (Juan Tripp?!) just 10 days later, after over a year of consideration, they were turned down. Hmm... Perhaps if the name had been different and there had not been such an obvious connection to Santa Fe, they might have been allowed an honest go of it? Not sure how real the fear of monopoly was. It wasn't until the '80's Ma Bell was broken up. And as a trucker, I'd have to argue that deregulation was a disaster generally speaking... a race to the bottom. As for innovation, who has refrigerated air service today? These guys really were thinking ahead! Well done, thank you for this video.

[@ian_davidson]

Amazing quality and exceptionally interesting video!

[@602br61458]

This was an entertaining and informative video. I will look at your other work. Thanks.

[@Gizathecat2]

I love your looks at little known history tidbits!

[@thomasjacques5286]

What a great history lesson this long-time USAF Logistician wasn't aware of. The politics of BIG government and MONEY. Thank you.

[@mauricedavis2160]

Real history is so fascinating, thank you for such a wonderful channel Sir!!!🙏👍📖🤔

[@emilkarpo]

Winslow Arizona was also the location of one of the Santa Fe's Fred Harvey hotels, The La Posada. The hotel is still open and has been restored to its original greatness.

[@Baynewsvideo]

Thank You Mr. Dibble...nice work.

[@motorTranz]

Excellent documentary! Thank you!

[@jaimejaimeChannel]

So interesting and well-done.

[@McRocket]

Very impressively done. And I knew nothing of this subject. An interesting topic. Thank you. ☮

[@propman3523]

I know a lot about this period of aviation and yet never heard of this cargo carrier. Good work!

[@ShainAndrews]

I believe it was not nearly as common to challenge the government back then as it is today. I believe they had a good case.. one probably worthy of taking all the way to the Supreme Court if necessary. On the flip side what if they were allowed in that market space. What would they be today? Would they have turned into some version of our current tech giants that short of complete abstinence individuals can not escape?

[@J-1410]

They may be SFSP or SFSPBN(Santa Fe Southern Pacific Burlington Northern). Probably just the "winner" of the countless mergers of the 1970s and 1980s of railroads, owned by Bershire Hathaway today.

[@peterdibble]

These are the sort of questions that were going through my head as I put this together. There were strong arguments for letting Santa Fe move forward, but it's also not hard to imagine them growing into an Amazon situation.

[@pseudonymous1382]

This question also has a converse that was highlighted by one of the forward-thinking executives in this video: during the 70s, many railroads were going bankrupt due to much of their customer base switching from rail to trucking for transportation instead. It's not unfounded to think that if Santa Fe -- or other railroads for that matter -- had managed to operate a successful air freight business, that those funds couldn't have helped prop up their existing rail operations, potentially saving many from bankruptcy. In such a scenario, it's possible that the railroads might have been able to continue passenger rail service despite declining public interest due to car and air travel alternatives. Many people now lament the lack of any real passenger rail outside of Amtrak, so it's interesting to think what the effect on society could have been if passenger rail service was as plentiful as it had been before the invention of the automobile.

[@DTD110865]

Canadian Pacific Railway had an airline too, and so did other railroads.

[@blogengeezer4507]

@@peterdibble ..Today the International tech giants use their intense influence over media, to elect powerful lawmakers, even manipulate the entire Washington DC control agenda. All done to ensure their continuance toward their goals. Stock portfolios, connected with future gains insider information, are obviously unenforced. Political affiliation loyalties are far stronger today, than at the higher morals time of 'Santa Fe Air Freight'. ;[

[@agoatmannameddesire8856]

More great work by Peter!

[@jeralddunn3782]

There was another similar Airline by the name of Zantop that operated under c a b Authority started at about the same time. I was a pilot for them back in the seventies. They started operating originally with c-46 condors. I would like to see a historical documentary about zantop. Thanks for that fine documentary on Santa Fe. I really enjoyed it

[@jaytowne8016]

The Zipper!!!

[@johnshaft5613]

The paint job on the aircraft on your thumbnail looks very similar, if not identical, to the paint job on the aircraft that went down in the original "Flight of the Phoenix". Is that a coincidence?

[@AJ67901]

I read about this years ago. Thanks for making a video on it.

[@hoscalerailfan]

It's funny how Pan AM went the opposite direction (Well known Airline to Railroad) and lasted longer than a well known Railroad becoming an Airline.

[@pauliedweasel]

Thanks you for a presentation on Santa Fe Airways

[@hemi350hp]

Excellent presentation. At 17:36 you mention a proprietary radio system between aircraft and train crews. I want to research this. Do you have any further references or descriptions of this ?

[@peterdibble]

I don't have the information on hand right now but they were testing VHF radio equipment of some kind... It was never fully developed for the airline but it did help form the basis of Santa Fe Railroad's radio equipment in the following years.

[@hemi350hp]

@@peterdibble Many thanks for your help. I will keep a look out for this development as I research further.

[@microbusss]

I think Burlington Northern tried this to with their BN Air Express too I have a patch from that venture

[@lancemumford3106]

I enjoyed the video, it is a very interesting bit of history that I was unaware of. Thanks for sharing.

[@ashleyrodriguwz2554]

Thanks for making another Amazing Video!

[@fubarmodelyard1392]

Excellent video and very interesting piece of missed opportunity history.

[@trainroomgary]

Well done • Cheers from the Detroit & Mackinac Railway 🚂

[@jaytowne8016]

At that time a company having common carriage over routes and then serving those routes or that area with more than one method was considered to be an anti trust law violation. Same as Matson Airlines to Honolulu.

[@Senor0Droolcup]

Peter this was excellent!

[@MrAndrew618]

And now we seem to be moving in the opposite direction (sort of). After Pan Am went bankrupt, Guildford Rail (Maine and New Hampshire) bought the Pan Am name, logo, and other property. We now have a rail line sporting the historic Pan Am livery (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pan_Am_Systems)

[@redram5150]

Great documentary. I had a feeling government bureaucracy was the hurtle in this case. Can't let business win or fail on its own.

[@davidtodora3153]

It is so unfortunate that when good companies have something unique, it then takes to an end and out of business. Thanks

[@Pensyfan19]

Very interesting video. I never knew that the mighty Santa Fe had connections in the east coast. I still prefer good old rail transport though. Much more efficient in moving goods and people than any plane or truck ever will.

[@garymcmills3493]

At one time the Santa Fe airway carried passengers on transcontinental hops I believe before World War 2. Also the Penn Central planned something similar, they had plans to buy 6 Lockheed C5 Galaxies to haul freight. The CAB turned them down also.

[@rhuephus]

not likely ... the airline did NOT startup unitl AFTER WW2 ... obviously you didn't watch the video

[@seancoleman2276]

I really like your videos

[@magnetospin]

You should do a video on the rise and fall of the Pullman Car. It seems a good fit for your channel.

[@MK3914]

Love your videos!

[@ronniewall1481]

I USE TO WALK TO TOWN AND WATCH TRAINS. THE SANTA FE SYMBOL WAS A FAVORITE.

[@safetymikeengland]

Good work, sir.

[@jacktaggart2489]

Excellent documentary on a little known history of the AT&SF, now BNSF. Their safety record screams of the care and concern Santa Fe exercised as an organization. Balancing overregulation with under regulation continues to challenge governing bodies today, as well.

[@mpeg2tom]

The Airline Deregulation Act of 1978 specified that the CAB would eventually be disestablished -- the first federal regulatory regime, since the 1930s, to be totally dismantled - and this happened on January 1, 1985.

[@oasntet]

Funny how the main obstacle to Santa Fe establishing a vertical monopoly was a horizontal monopoly (TWA) protecting its own interests.

[@orcapnw9610]

your work is fantastic