The Fall of DTM: What Happened to German Touring Car Racing?

[@HeyFella582]

I went to several DTM races at Zandvoort in the 2000s. Back then it was like the whole of Germany was at the Dutch coast. The series was very popular. Caravans, motorhomes and German cars everywere. The stands were packed. It was a sight to behold. I went with my nephew and brother in the summer of 2023. We had grandstand seats and it wasn't even fully packed. Germany no longer cares. Such a shame.

[@danieldorn9989]

No fun allowed when fighting climate change They dont even let F1 drive in the country anymore

[@gammagirl1992]

As a German, I'm sad to see what they've done with the DTM. It used to be so cool and really exciting. Now it's just another boring GT3 championship...

[@skaldlouiscyphre2453]

It's one of the better GT3 based championships, but I agree that without the uniqueness it's a less interesting series.

[@Jasongilliar]

Same, DTM cars where just beautifull to look at. Amazing looking, now the closest we have is the super gt, whats funny because they raced together in 2020. But i dont even think i can watch thouse in germany, i watch everything thats streamed on youtube plus f1 obviosly but i doubt they stream. But yeah DTM was special.

[@skaldlouiscyphre2453]

@Jasongilliar Have you ever seen TC2000?

[@darren2514fv]

The series from the 1990s onwards were trying to get a Japanese manufacturer into the series Toyota was the one mentioned several times over the years as Toyota has a European base for the Motorsport operation in Germany

[@frankj0484]

If Toyota enters the DTM for years, it could've took over the Aston Martin spot since 2020 with the Supra, same as they replaced the iconic LC500 in Super GT's GT500 class. Sadly, the costs have ruined the Class 1 which made DTM replaced them with GT3 cars.

[@SwineBrothers]

Also, DTM was going to go to an electric series at one time. And let's not forget the 5 years of NASCAR announcing there would be an American DTM series.

[@frankj0484]

It would be awesome if Ford, Chrysler and GM join the Class 1 programs. Luckily, Super GT is still using this kind of race cars, so maybe they're trying to bring the Class 1 cars into worldwide racing series like GT3 cars do.

[@gavalant366]

The GT3 era was meant to bring stability yet the entry lists have still been really volatile each season. Starting with 19, 24, 27, and then a big drop to only 20 cars showing up in 2024 after Audi quits GT3 for F1 and honestly, I wouldn't be surprised if Dörr Motorsports is gonna quit soon because of McLaren giving them no help whatsoever like what happened to Pfaff Racing in IMSA.

[@lucasrabelo937]

3:22 This kind of aero profile could be seen in Stock Car Brasil between 2010-2019. In that time the cars here looked closer to a DTM car, but we used a Chevrolet(that had nothing in common with the street model and V8 engines). But in 2020 the series took the "closer to the street model" route

[@ArnoldTriyudho]

And Peugeot 408 until 2016 season

[@SwineBrothers]

The problem is, now it's just another gt3 series. And not even the only gt3 series in Germany. I get why it had to change, but...plus it's not broadcast on KZbin in the states any more.

[@AS19Motorsport]

Good video. For me (as a non-car guy) it isn’t a problem that they now use GT3s - the racing is still exciting after all - but I can understand that a lot of the traditional fanbase feels disillusioned. Heck, you see that in any DTM comments section nowadays. What still makes the series unique to me is the fact that, contrary to the other GT series in Europe, they still only have one driver per car, making viewers much more inclined to root for personalities and look out for rivalries

[@ivaneurope]

One correction - Germany HAD a TCR championship and in the first few year it had grid sizes up to 40+ cars, but dwindling grids and the fact that the then ADAC GT Masters (which was then merged with DTM once both were under the same umbrella) was far more popular, the series was killed off. A potential re-boot was planned, but scrapped. While the GT3 class is still thriving, that's not the case in TCR - the cars are based on C-segment family cars which is now facing extinction as car manufacturers are heading towards either EV's or SUV's (some of the best selling vehicles in Europe are SUV's), which also hampers the FIA's rallying pyramid as the cars used in the World Rally Championship are for the most part based on the smaller B-segment (subcompact class) which are also phased out (the Ford Fiesta ended production in 2022, which forced long time partner M-Sport to use the Puma crossover as the base for their next top tier machine, while the Fiesta family of rally cars below the top range look outdated).

[@JakeSimRacing]

It just seems like ADAC is reorganizing things quite a bit. How do you think the EVs will play a role in the future?

[@fioralbannach6647]

Agree that DTM is not what it used to be, but it still offers some fantastic racing in its current form. It is also popular and the races get good crowds, with top drivers for e.g., Rene Rast, Mirko Bortolotti, Maro Engel competing. I think DTM has made the best of difficult conditions, and adapted to produce some of the most exciting racing we have today.

[@edugj23]

The "temporary" adoption of GT3 rules became permanent, and there's no other choice in the short term. In my view, DTM is still around because of the brand, which is still strong enough to attract top drivers.

[@frankj0484]

I used to watch them because of the Class 1 cars until 2021 because the costs have made Audi left the Class 1 program, leaving BMW being the only brand which caused DTM to dump them and switched to GT3 cars but luckily Super GT is still possessing them as GT500 class. These cars are quicker than Le Mans hypercars when it comes to cornering speed but they have the same mass as them which is 1030kg but slower when it comes top speed. Nowadays in WEC, the hypercars and in Super GT, the GT500(Class 1) are currently racing together with GT3 cars. These race cars deserved to race everywhere like GT3 and F1 cars do but in the future, maybe they should go hybrid mode like F1 cars and Le Mans hypercars do instead of EV like Formula E.

[@judenoda9412]

Super GT GT500 sill uses Silhouette cars, I hope DTM can go back

[@frankj0484]

The costs have ruined the DTM popularity sadly which is why they dumped the Class 1 and switched to GT3 cars. In Brazil, a motorsport series called 'Stock Car Pro Series'. They also use silhouette cars too but their body platform seems very identical to average street cars. I also wish DTM, Super GT and Stock Car can merge to create a worldwide racing similar to GT World and F1 including racing in 24h of Nurburgring. Super GT has 2 class categories like FIA WEC does but they possess hypercars(LMH) as rebranded LMP1.

[@Creeepz-ii7fk]

i got tickets to see it live at hockenheim in the last season they had "prototypes"(2020), mercedes was gone already and aston martin had a car that was bad, but it was a sight to behold altogether still. loud fast and uncanny, as they looked like streetcars and wentt 300kph. i understand why they went gt3 as a temporary soluion as the manufacturers didnt want to spent money on a "useless" engine, butr bmw using it for the gtp/lmh is a banger sign, aswell as talks about merging with supergt OR going electric and being the first electric GT series. Well see, i hope they know what to do with the name edit: didnt know about the thing making mercedes leave being turbos- while turbos are the future of combustion engines. Classic German decision, not going for the future and sticking with outdated tech.

[@raymondkoledoye9941]

Thank you so much for you making this video about of my favourite touring car racing series all time. Also my favourite cars in DTM it was the Mercedes 190E Evolution 2 and BMW E30 M3. and my favourite races in DTM was the 1992 season between these two German rivals legends the Mercedes vs BMW both of them racing against each other at the race track and suddenly Mercedes win the Championship season in 1992 and that's my favourite manufacturer rivals in motorsports history.

[@ManlyBalls1946]

I agree with others that's its just another GT3 championship when they switched specs. Now that WEC is getting better and better every year. I get my Hypercar and GT3 racing in one hit.

[@richardhammock2829]

Makes me glad Super GT exists

[@alexcarolan8825]

I remember in the late 90's early 2000's my dad would say that any DTM champion has F1 potential. And you would often see drivers leap from DTM to F1, now talk about a feeder series. F2 is a joke or the ladder to F1 in general now, is a joke. You can't even jump from rally or le mans or indycar into F1. Just gotta have even richer parets to pay for a junior formula seat....

[@samspencerRS]

I wish DTM, Super GT, Australian Supercars. and a new American national championship could create a ruleset that caters towards carmakers like the LMDh/LMH regs. This would be a pipedream but would be awesome to see cars potentually race in major events across the globe such as, Bathurst 1000/Suzuka 1000

[@Andreas27696]

Yes it's "only another GT3 series" by now but: who should pay for anything else? It's already super difficult for the teams to find the budgets for a season now Manufacturers don't want to put that much money in anymore as they did in the past even if Manufacturers would, you still had the same issue as the DTM basically had all their live: The fear of sudden death when some drop out and most importantly: The racing is really good and tight! For me the best GT3 Racing at the moment

[@SvalbardSleeperDistrict]

Several weeks ago I asked ChatGPT how Super GT had managed to maintain Class One cars despite the costs while DTM could not, and the answer was interesting. I encourage those wondering about the same question to follow my attempt.

[@las10plagas]

have just seen a Baby Benz the other day :) but old M3's have become very rare here in germany, I think.

[@moleyballin2270]

The BTCC in the UK is still showing how today, a series can use unique cars not seen in any other championship whilst still being successful and financially viable, and with manufacturers interest. But I think its now too late for the DTM to go back to being a true touring car championship, as moving to TCR/BTCC style cars would lose lots of the drivers and manufacturer interest, so any route other than GT3 seems impossible

[@EagleFntm]

What about the differences between DTM and Super GT Championship in Japan?

[@benjaminbrockway5998]

Super GT has two classes, GT500, which has the class of cars DTM was supposed to have, and GT300, a modified GT3 spec that allows for absolutely hilarious scenes like a Prius blowing past a Lambo. Easily the greatest racing on the planet.

[@RikuroWasHere]

DTM is touring race series, while SuperGT is GT race series, also SGT has multiclass race..

[@frankj0484]

DTM is a sole class racing(formerly the Class 1 and now the GT3) while Super GT has 2 class categories. In GT500 class, it's basically the pre-2021 DTM cars they're still possessing, since 2014 to today, the cars require to have 2 liters turbocharged straight 4 engines with 650hp and the mass is the same as Le Mans Hypercars(LMH/LMDH) which is 1030kg while in GT300 class, it's a modified FIA GT3 cars which also allows mother chassis like Prius, Supra, BRZ, etc to compete with the matching homologations. Both Super GT and FIA WEC(endurance Le Mans series) are the best and most interesting racing series in the world.

[@pavelskrylnikov9658]

The most hilarious thing about GT3 era DTM is that it is only technically D and M, and absolutely not T. Also, i used to watch it in my childhood, along with some Clio and Carrera cup racing, and i like tin tops more than open wheels since than. So it is really sad that DTM flopped, the example of Japan shows that it was purely because of bad management.

[@vammy_]

atleast we still have supergt, im more than sure they wont drop their class 1 cars for many more years

[@mithritades]

I tried to adapt to the Series out of love but I gave up after 2022 and I caught one race last season and it was terrible, I didn't even finish the race...R.I.P. DTM

[@MyILoveMinecraft]

I loved dtm because they used to run hot versions of affordable cars. DTM should be running C classes, audi A4s, 3 series and alfa romeo gullias. Not lambos and 911s

[@JOHANNESwhoelse]

As usual, Mercedes is to blame for everything. They pulled out in 2019 and gave Audi ideas, so they pulled out too in 2021. Mercedes ruined the original DTM/ITC with their reckless spending, pushing Alfa Romeo and Opel into debt. Mercedes ruined prototype racing with their Sauber-Mercedes sportscar programme, effectively forcing other manufacturers to develop F1-Engines to keep up, prompting them to just enter F1 instead. Whenever you invite Mercedes to your party, don't be surprised if it ends sooner than planned!

[@skaldlouiscyphre2453]

Pretty sure it was the FIA that forced Group C to adopt the 3.5 litre formula, not MB.

[@nanobyte5567]

Mercedes have been in F1, and Audi were in WEC, and both series were really expensive. Plus, VW had to pay billions for their diesel controversy. They know the balance sheet and obviously the ROI was shit for the former DTM regulations. Don’t blame the manufacturer either when the regulations allow such freedom as you mentioned. That’s just business.

[@AdminAbuse]

I lost all interest since it became a GT3 series, it is too generic for me personally to care about. I already watch WEC and IMSA and see enough GT3 cars as is

[@frankj0484]

The Class1/GT500 and LMH/LMDH cars are currently massively increase popularity and fans. The GT3 cars are everywhere like average road cars but I love it because it's more of a racing diversity.

[@FurryestX]

GT3 SUCK Class 1 ROCK

[@camrsr5463]

Covid sure didn't help but that's old news..... DTM was awesome and it still can be....The TCR format is very cool and perhaps something like a GT-E version of TCR could work....if you don't know look up the difference between GT3 and GTE Super GT (the 500's) is also very cool TransAM is another one that has potential to be a very popular domestic series .....damn Nascar! lol

[@skaldlouiscyphre2453]

Trans-Am was pretty popular in the 80s and 90s. I don't think it's downfall had much to do with NASCAR and a lot more to do with declining relevancy. Eventually it reached a point where it was the Paul Gentilozzi show, then it went dormant for 3 seasons. I feel like right now it's the TA2 series that's really sustaining Trans-Am, meanwhile the TA1 category has been pretty stagnant since Ernie Francis Jr won 7 consecutive titles. I don't think Trans-Am has done much to position either TA1 or TA2 to become a top-tier category. Manufacturers sometimes use TA2 as a place for oval track drivers to gain road racing experience, but besides that I don't see it doing much to draw eyeballs that aren't already familiar with Trans-Am. I don't see much of a way for Trans-Am to actually grow, vs. merely cannibalizing attention from TA1 to TA2 or vice-versa. If they move away from the SCCA GT-1 formula for TA1 they lose their main pipeline for teams and car builders, I don't see much gained by adopting the Gen 7 Cup car or the Gen 3 Supercar relative to what would be lost and switching to GT3 would just make them IMSA Jr. I feel like no matter what they do, they're more likely to harm TA2 than grow TA1 or grow overall. So, where's the growth potential?

[@williamford9564]

GT3 racing is just fine. Adapt as DTM finally did, or die, which what it did to itself twice already.

[@frankj0484]

GT3 racing is like everyday drives but in motorsport. In Super GT, WEC, IMSA, WRC and Dakar, they have various type of vehicles in racing. The Super GT's GT500 cars, it's basically the Class 1 cars(pre-2021 DTM) and the GT300 is basically the modified FIA GT3 cars but also includes street cars with silhouette body which is called 'mother chassis'.

[@sametozkan9175]

Thanos on thumbnail

[@asterixdogmatix1073]

Even the first GT3 season was full of dodgy manufacturer instructions to teams and race manipulations. Why bother watching such a series?

[@Milano322]

They took a lot of flak going to GT3 but the racing is really exciting and aggressive. The most exciting GT3 series in the world bar none. I think you’re doing yourself a disservice to dismiss it for using GT3 rules

[@JakeSimRacing]

I agree, I should have focused on the racing aspect of it

[@MyUrbanExplorationOnline]

An Aussie here. Allot of the broad strokes can be said about the Australian version of DTM that is known as Supercars. In the 90's the then Austrialian Touring Car Championship were mostly field with European with a ln odd Japanese and Austrialian built local cars with Ford Falcons and Holden Commodore. Due to few factors by the mid 90's the ATCC was replaced with the V8 Supercars with just Holden Commodore and Ford Falcons. That worked for about 10 to 12 years or so. However there were attempt to bring in new makers. So the idea of having a V8 were dropped and the series were rebranded to just Supercars. Now that from 2017 onwards, Australia no longer make cars. That means that the teams, long with Ford and General Motors had to come up with a fresh set of cars to race with. That combined with a new set of specs that the cars have to be built too, and long with the reduction of round have left somewhat a sour taste with the broader fandom. Considering that the Brizlian Stockcars has now gone over in using SUV. That kinda make me think that other series, like with Supercars, Super GT in Japan, and long with the DTM should also look at what Brizlian Stockcars are doing, and maybe in 7, or how meany years time when each of the series I mentioned in my comment, should come together and agree with using the SUV based GT series with the understanding that each series would also have a "do not compete" clause where each series would stay in each other region, and the winning team from each series for that year would go on and race at Le Mens 24hrs as there own class.

[@ChaseSchofield-dj2pb]

DTM should bring back the Class 1 cars using the current GT500 regulations from Japan’s Super GT

[@nanobyte5567]

The German manufacturers wanted to maintain a competitive global presence in GT3, and still compete in other Motorsport series. F1 and WEC were certainly big factors that influenced the switch to GT3 in DTM. On the other hand, the Japanese manufacturers don’t bother with a competitive GT3 presence, and would rather support customer teams in Japan and retain their GT500 cars. The reality is, DTM and Super GT cars are far too niche and bespoke which automatically makes them more expensive. Toyota might be proving this wrong with their current motorsports presence, but the question is how many cars will be in each series? Even then, GT500 at this rate is very likely to discontinue given Nissan’s situation, and the GT300 class being far cheaper but also having unique cars like the GR86.

[@vammy_]

the gt500 regulations are the same.. it would still be to expensive

[@turbo_marc]

GT3 is killing motorsports.

[@speedtracker9556]

I didn't know that the DTM series had fallen. Is DTM dead? Why has DTM fallen? Why is German Touring Car Racing dead? Why did the DTM series lose its uniqueness?