The Fantasy Genre Has A Prophecy Problem

[@Dharengo]

As far as I'm aware, the aztec calendar wasn't even a prophecy. Just a consequence of their timekeeping system.

[@matthewparker9276]

Not even really a consequence of their timekeeping system, just when they ran out of room.

[@sizanogreen9900]

@@matthewparker9276 as far as I understand it it was just the end of a looong cycle and the start of the next. Wasn*t the mesoamerican calendar all about various cycles interacting with and within each other? It is in that sense kinda similar to people thinking time will end 1000 years after jesus or something. It is just a round number which people then start interpreting stuff into.

[@Grungeon_Master]

@sizanogreen9900 You're correct, as far as I understand. 2012 was the end of the current age, and the start of a new one. It's not like they just stopped putting in effort because it was so far away, there was intent to create a breakpoint. But we have no clue as to why then, or what the new age was supposed to look like.

[@sizanogreen9900]

@@Grungeon_MasterI mean meso american time was cyclical so I'd assume more of the same with maybe slight variations thrown in to spice things up. Maybe another god would have to sacrifice themselves to become the sun or something would be my best guess xD

[@purpledevilr7463]

I think they also just had a quarter not-day at the end of the year rather than doing the whole leap-year thing.

[@DrFranklynAnderson]

I read a book ages ago that was like “legend says the hero from our village lead the charge of twelve heroes to defeat the monsters, but who knows if that’s real?” I rolled my eyes ‘cus _of course_ it’s real, that’s how these stories work-until the protagonist met a girl from another village where they said it was _their_ hero who defeated the monsters. I feel like that’d be a good way to make prophecies less obvious: there’s 20 different flavors of the same prediction and everyone’s convinced theirs is the right one.

[@chameleonx9253]

I love the partial subversion in Skyrim's Dawnguard DLC, where you find out the prophecy Harkon has been pursuing was just made up by Vyrthur to lure somebody into bringing him a daughter of Coldharbour, since he already had Auriel's Bow. So the prophecy is "true" in the sense that it was foretelling what would happen if someone believed Vyrthur's lie and brought him what he needed. 😂

[@Grungeon_Master]

Yes, the more I look into faith and worldbuilding, the more the elder scrolls presents itself as a gold standard. Perhaps I should look at 'everything it does right' at some point...

[@chameleonx9253]

@@Grungeon_Master Oh, yes. That iceberg is massive. The only real problem with the lore of TES series is how disappointing the actual games become once you learn how much awesome stuff is supposed to actually be in the various provinces of Tamriel, but which aren't there in-game because the devs either forgot or decided it wasn't worth trying to code it into their busted 30-year old engine.

[@neoqwerty]

Shout outs to the Nerevarine Prophecies, which are basically a Daedra's heavy-handed meddling on her favorite's behalf and powered by mortals being very predictable and prone to self-fulfilling prophecies, even mortals that ascended to "godhood". Were you ever Nerevar? Dunno. Did you mantle Nerevar by acting like him and embodying him? Dunno. Did you match the prophecies or were they just so vague that anyone could have fit with creative interpretation? Dunno. Did you HAVE to follow the extra prophecies? Nope, all you need is three dwemer tools and luck smacking a heart until it vanishes from existence, you can just break in, shank a god in the back and pry the gauntlet from his dead corpse, and then get the dwarf to nearly kill you to put it on you.

[@chameleonx9253]

@@neoqwerty Bonus points because there were canonically multiple other people who believed they were the Nerevarine and met the criteria of the prophecy in one way or another (because it was so vague), but ended up failing. Each time the Ashlanders would make up some ad hoc explanation for why they weren't the REAL Nerevarine all along.

[@fangslore9988]

within the setting i have created prophicies are created when a seer sees the future but they only come true if no one is told them but the moment they're known the prophicy becomes aborted because the events leading up to that moment would be subject to change by the very knowledge of the prophecy itself

[@soren426]

The Y2K bug was not a prophecy that ended up being fake, it was a real bug that a ton of people worked to fix. It is a similar success story to the end of acid rain. Acid rain was a serious problem, and before the end of the 90's it was nixed before it got worse

[@brentwalker9576]

Dropped by the comments to say this. Tech folks who worked on it get super annoyed when people equate "verifiable way the computers at the time worked, that we worked to patch" with "eschatological panic of the minute".

[@Rynewulf]

@@brentwalker9576my father in law helped deal with the y2k bug while working IT security in insurance! Sometime before that when he was a chemist he also helped invent the only antibiotic I am allergic too

[@laurencefraser]

@@brentwalker9576 The silliest part was that, so far as I can tell, the news media only got hold of it, causing the big fuss about the matter, after it was already fixed. Reporting on it was still useful (some small and not terribly tech savy business Might, in theory, have still been using a system old enough to have such problems somewhere), but beyond that it was all just very silly.

[@j.f.fisher5318]

Seriously no excuse for being that stupid. Back then everyone who could code was taking side gigs fixing Y2K bugs. It didn't happen because everyone took it seriously and fixed it.

[@MartinRudat]

Arguably it's an instance of a proscriptive apocalyptic prophecy fulfilled; do this if you don't want to experience an apocalypse; many people did, and most systems happily chugged along because the apocalypse was averted... but not all were faithful, and had... issues.

[@UnswimmingFishYT]

The best use I've ever seen of a prophecy was in Dragonfable's earlier story. They have one about a dragon meant to destroy the world, and another meant to save it. It eventually turns out that both parts are somewhat true, but in a very different way to what one would expect. The savior dragon is corrupted into a weapon and used to try destroying the actual world and becomes so large as to eat the sun, then the destroyer dragon kills it, fulfilling it's job as destroying an immense body, just not their whole planet. The savior dragon also still does his job because the one controlling him was more noticeable, but his voice came out and told the destroyer how to win the fight. Because of the exact way it plays out, the whole prophecy is true, but it happens in a very unexpected way.

[@kevinsurget8571]

There was a story that employed "prophetic magic" in an interesting way, where the prophetic mages went mad upon discovering the end of the world and tried to break fate so hard that prophetic magic became unusable. In addition, even at its peak, prophetic magic always had a flaw due to the act of casting it itself, the main character for example foresaw 400 years of what would happen... if he himself never existed or influenced the world in any way. I really liked that approach and have changed how prophecies work in my worlds to reflect something similar, even if they are given by gods.

[@Nikanoru]

Part of the fun of the Pathfinder setting is that prophecy used to exist but has been broken. There is even a god of prophecy that lost a lot of popularity when that happened lol

[@mofumyon]

I've been a big fan of the Eberron D&D setting's take on prophecy. In that setting, prophecy is a map of a maze, and events are turns in the maze. For example, if you take a left at "House Karrnath overthrows the government of this small nation", and then take a right at "Riedra becomes a democracy", and then another right at "Khorvaire experiences a housing crisis", you might end up in "The demon overlord known as the Rage of War is released from its prison". Various organizations try to figure out how best to manipulate events in the world to bring about the outcome of the prophecy that is in their favor, both for good or for ill. Such conspiracies and machinations can shape the plot of entire campaigns.

[@Drudenfusz]

The Grungeon Master is the chosen one to cover chosen ones!

[@ronjaj.addams-ramstedt1023]

Agreed!

[@dataportdoll]

One of my favorite prophecies, tho it's less of a "correct use" and more a subversion, was in "Jonathan Strange and Mr Norrel", the "Two Magicians shall Appear in England" speech is, for the most part, portrayed as a typical prophecy. "Oh a prophecy about two magicians, and the title of this book is two names, I see where we're going." Wild men with 'magic script', implied to be sham, recite it when they want to legitimize themselves, and it looks like one of those typical 'foreshadowing' prophecies. Spoilers for a 20 year old book: The twist is that the prophecy isn't a prophecy, but it's actually a spell that The Raven King, this golden age wizard, is casting for over 300 years to give the English "primal" magic again (English magicians use an adjusted form of magic that faeries use, and this means the Fae influence and dominate them easier than other humans, he's basically trying to free England from Fae domination). So every time someone is speaking this "prophecy", they're actually contributing to this channeled spell for hundreds and hundreds of years, which ultimately culminates in the main characters developing their powers, but we don't know that til the very end of the book when, out of options, the heroes summon the Raven King back to England, and the spell goes off. And what's great is that the twist was foreshadowed, the Raven King was said to have protected his kingdom from the Black Plague by channeling a spell through his subjects dreams for almost ten years. It's still one of my favorite twists cuz it's not rug-pulling you, it's simply re-interpreting the ENTIRE BOOK and gives a very rewarding second read.

[@Isvoor]

The prophecies foretold that I must write a sacrificial comment for the algorithm gods... The prophecy has been fulfilled.

[@michaelpettersson4919]

Elder scrolls got it right. Prophesies doesn't have to be correct. There are PLENTY of contradictions in the lore and this is deliberately buy the developers. In our world Prophesies do indeed fail from time to time causing chaos withing varioues cults that counted on the fulfilment of those Prophesies.

[@w4iph]

I really like the idea that there are different kinds of seers, so some see probably webs, some see the likely future without intervention, some see "destiny" a person's potential, and others see the true future which is unavoidable because it accounts for all possible decisions. But the one thing all seers have in common is that they can lie, and often do.

[@w4iph]

The most effective use of true prophecy would be to look for weather reports and natural disasters. They see a storm? More the ships and reinforce the levies. They see a drought? Plant storable things then low water plants, and work on irrigation infrastructure or trade agreements. Volcano? Evacuate. Post up on a hill and provoke an attack for just after a surprise rainfall. Ford a river during an unseasonal dry spell. Don't tell me about things I could control, tell me about the uncontrollable things I can't predict

[@MarkD5678]

I vaguely remember one of the Sword of Truth novels where the population was becoming obsessed with prophecies and fortune telling, and going into great detail about the unreliability of prophecy and the risks of people investing their faith into them

[@Grungeon_Master]

Yeah, I unfortunately never got too far into that series. I think perhaps I was too young to be reading when I did, considering some of the *content*. Maybe worth a revisit.

[@CodyEthanJordan]

​@@Grungeon_Master Spoiler alert: they are not lol

[@MudakTheMultiplier]

I think I will be using this in my next d&d campaign. Prophecies are so core to how fantasy works, but I'm never sure how to include them when the end cannot be written ahead of time since I'm not a fortune teller...

[@krinkrin5982]

One thing that I think people often overlook in regards to prophecies, but perhaps should not, are the so called Accidentally True statements. These are usually either quotes, or works of fiction that in hindsight turned out to be eerily close to actual events (or later research), to the point of being prophetic. The usually given reasons, other than simple coincidence, are the familiarity of the author with the subject matter. The two most often cited incidents are: * The quote attributed to Ferdinand Foch in 1918: "This is not Peace. It is an Armistice for twenty years." * The book The Wreck of the Titan, which became infamous after the sinking of the Titanic due to how closely the plot of the book followed the events of the actual voyage (not to mention names of the ships involved).

[@CadanL]

Ah yes, the Apollo meme

[@relicking9207]

I can't help but think someone giving a fake prophecy to the Villain so they aren't just killing everyone in all directions, then telling the Hero(s) to go deal with them sometime later because "They're starting to figure it out and I can't directly interfere with the realms"

[@trentonbuchert7342]

I’m of the opinion that if you include a prophecy in your story, the prophecy should be about something bad (like Ragnarok), should be misleading in some way, or shouldn’t be acknowledged as a prophecy for most of the story. A prophecy should contribute to narrative conflict, not resolve it. Basically, you just need to avoid saying the world will be saved unless the world being saved somehow creates conflict. Or you could pull a Lego Movie and have the prophecy be completely made up (but still come true regardless). The belief that the prophecy is true is arguably more important than the actual truth of the prophecy.

[@cheesypoohalo]

'A prophecy should contribute to narrative conflict' YES this. The prophecy shouldn't just be a guarantee of smooth sailing, but a way to make things more interesting. If the prophecy adds nothing to the story, it shouldn't even be there, since it just spoils the ending. I've tried playing with prophecy and given it a go below, rate my prophecy usage! > Prophecy says the dark lord will be defeated by the chosen one. > Bob is big and strong and good looking; most people believe he is the chosen one, as does Bob. > A wise old wizard claims Bob is not the true chosen one, but instead Bob's apprentice, a weasly weak boy named Fred. > Bob is angered by this, conflict between them both as Bob mocks Fred. > They finally fight the dark lord. Bob makes sure to be the one to land the final blow, killing the dark lord. > Bob is ecstatic he has proven the prophecy, and the whole kingdom celebrates him. > Bob slowly falls to greed and corruption; he has the old wise wizard executed. > When the king mysteriously dies, Bob is beloved enough to take his place. > Finally Fred returns to the now ruinous kingdom, determined to save everyone and kill the true dark lord, Bob. > Bob, too arrogant to acknowledge Fred as the chosen one (and himself as the true dark lord), underestimates Fred and is defeated.

[@solalabell9674]

There’s a few kinds of prophesies Devine guesswork like Galadriel’s mirror or ‘what will happen if nothing changes course’ are a good kind for most dnd games as are ultimatum prophesied but hard and fast X will happen in Y year is really bad for most dnd games because if the players change what was necessary things get bad

[@prettycoolguy3206]

I kind of like the idea that a prophecy is a spell in & of itself. Something that subtly alters unnoticed elements of the world to ensure a certain things does/doesn't come to pass. So it's not so much an absolute truth but a subtle act of magic that a strong enough will could overcome.

[@thekaxmax]

Greek prophecies 100%

[@thamiordragonheart8682]

I feel like there are three useful ways to handle prophecy in fantasy and everything else tends to be sort of lazy. There's always the historically grounded "prophecy" that someone or some group makes up for some political purpose, which can come true if people believe it enough, though the characters should have to wrestle with the fact that it's made up at some point in the story. There's a true prophecy that does hold some inevitable truth about the future, but the characters (and the reader) should never correctly guess how it's going to work out until it's already happened. I think it works best when everyone jumps to the worst conclusions, as people tend to do. The third type of prophecy that I think works is revealing something an intelligent person could have figured out with the right information but no mortal could have gotten all the information. This sort of prophecy isn't inevitable and acting on it tends to change the outcome. I think in a setting with active gods, these should be relatively common.

[@RyuuKageDesu]

I've noticed that, in fiction, many false prophecies include a reasoning why it was false. Such as the originator wanting to get rich, or the hero's actions averted it, and so on. Similar to the take on cognitive dissonance, but manifest as the truth behind the prophecy, in the story.

[@MrFish1124]

I remember a book series that I read that I thought was really interesting. "The Faithful and The Fallen" series by John Gwynne. In the books, the central conflict revolves around an old prophecy about "The God War" and how champions are going to arise and old artifacts are going to be uncovered and all that stuff. The first few books, everything in the prophecy starts coming true. But later in the series it was revealed that the entire prophecy was completely made up by the angel Meical to trap Azoroth down a predictable path because he knew that despite his betrayal Azoroth still believed in Elyon and had faith in the creator god who abandoned the world. But when questioned about how he knew all this stuff was going to happen, Meical had no other answer but to assume Elyon was getting involved just to mess with him because it was just all too perfectly in sync with the random made up stuff he wrote down. It definitely left me questioning how much of the prophecy was divine intervention.

[@GrahamFryeJr]

I have a diviner in a game and I rolled some random words and created a vague guidance given by her, not having a definite meaning in mind. Possible situation where following it might be good advice pop up often, but nobody knows if it's been fulfilled.

[@cristoferwolz-romberger3835]

One of the things I've been working on for powerful beings (gods, but also those a tier or two down from gods, but still far above mortals) is that prophesy is a trade off: you're giving your enemies warnings about your plans; but if you succeed, there's additional magic and spiritual power available. The more people know and the more specific the prophesy is, the more power you get when you fulfill it; but also, the more likely your enemies are to be able to stop you - or worse, the more likely your rivals are to steal the show (and the power available).

[@Seriously_Unserious]

These are some good ideas and honestly not something I'd put a lot of thought into as a fantasy writer. Prophecy does not factor heavily into my debut novel, but could make appearances in future stories in the same world.

[@obviouswarrior5460]

As D&D GM. I have make a " " home-rule" " (interpretation of the rules). The spell wish/miracle, can do a Prophecy. But it's gonna kill the wizard/cleric. And a day, someone gonna born with the Prophecy. He have +5 to all dice (damage include) to accomplish the Prophecy (so dark Prophecy and good can existe). If the bearer die, the Prophecy continue and gonna found an other chosen-one. It's hard. It's powerful. But it's a tool to make an univers better. Make the worlbuild better. Knowing you have a Prophecy ? Found any sign (If you cut down tree with hand punch, you know you have one). And go see a sage, and ask him what is your Prophecy. Found your Prophecy can be a hard work, a really hard one. Now think of a dark Prophecy... How do you fight it ? Immagine a goblins have a Prophecy of kill all humans. How do you managed the bearer ? He have +5 damage to any human, and anyone who wanna protecte human from him. Petrify him ? The prophecy gonna found an other one. Put him in sleep ? Same. It's a hard thing to fight.

[@Redbeardblondie]

I love the idea of including actual prophecies, both on a large scale and at a more personal “omen” level. Not necessarily as a plot device, but as a thematic aid to create a sense of extreme inferiority in the players. I prefer games and stories where the Chosen Hero is far more powerful than the MC/Player, so that if the MC/Player ever has to fight the Hero’s fight for some reason, it is a monumental struggle requiring sacrifice and wit and teamwork. In another situation, I am planning on Prophecy being something that is not handed down by the gods, but rather more akin to a Curse. Some individual or group with Astrological knowledge interpret the stars in a biased way, spreading their Prophecy so that people’s belief in it helps bring it to pass. I also like the idea of using Omens as a form of meteorology. But, instead of just the predicted movements of earthly conditions, they are the predicted movements of the social and spiritual conditions as well.

[@sethcourtad8733]

My favorite example of prophecy is definitely Trulani from Harry Potter. Literally all of her Prophecies come true, but she is terrible at interpreting them, and many of the prophecies don't actually relate to anything of consequence.

[@CadanL]

My favourite is when she prophesies Dumbledore's death the first time in The Prisoner of Azkaban. "When thirteen dine the first to rise is the first to fall" is what she cites when he invites her to eat with them at the table - except she's the fourteenth person and Dumbledore had risen from his chair to greet her. Why? Scabbers is eating at the table too

[@thekaxmax]

Also, some settings have gods that include prophesy in their domains. So prophesies from them can be considered more reliable than those from other gods--or, at least, more directed to the god's goals. I use 100% accurate and clear prophesies in my fantasy games, but when three gods all have prophesies about the same situation that aren't entirely consonant with each other....

[@novasolarius8763]

If I were to write a story with prophecies, I would make those prophecies conditional. If X, then Y. No guaranteed chain of events, nothing that shall come to pass, but a description of a future that MAY come to pass. One that's still true, in that the prophecy will come to pass IF the stated conditions are met, but doesn't guarantee that the conditions are, in fact, met. The concept of a chosen one can be handled similarly. They are the only one who might defeat the villain and save the realm. Nobody else can succeed. That doesn't mean that the chosen one is guaranteed to do so.

[@DanielMWJ]

It can be said to come true that way too. The only way it would be false is if the conditions are met and the event doesn't happen or the conditions aren't met and the event happens anyway.

[@novasolarius8763]

@@DanielMWJ Sure, but it's a lot less problematic in a narrative sense than having a prophecy that guarantees a future regardless of what happens. Unless you want to construct a narrative in which the lack of free will is a focus.

[@DanielMWJ]

@@novasolarius8763 Oh, definitely. Knowing a prophecy will come true if it's an absolute declaration kinda sucks narratively. Leaving it open to "conflict happens, win or bad shit will go down" is *so* much more interesting. It makes the characters' choices and actions much more meaningful.

[@jaspervanheycop9722]

That is how Arthurian legend works, IF someone can pull the sword from the stone THEN he will be the chosen king. If Lancelot betrays Arthur, his life will go tragically wrong.

[@CadanL]

I also enjoy the last one because there's also the implication that the chosen hero doesn’t actually have to do it directly - maybe they just get all the right people together and working towards a common goal, maybe they become a martyr, maybe they topple the empire through a series of wild circumstances like an extremely elaborate game of domino's

[@Dorrovian]

Amazing use of prophecy is in Tad Williams "Memory, Sorrow, and Thorn" series. Three Swords must come again. Spoilers ahead, obviously. Everyone among main characters think that prophecy is only way to stop return of ancient enemy of humanity, so they try to collect and cause three legendary swords to meet again. It turns their interpretation was a "little" off. Prophecy was telling how his return will happen and what is required for it.

[@danford2590]

The Licanius trilogy explores prophecies and the subsequent questions of free will excellently and I highly recommend it to anyone wanting to explore the topic further. (Though disclaimer it is the authors first ever book and the writing of the first book is a little rough around the edges).

[@ytchanviewer5389]

Excellent video ! Prophesies are better used as a tool to motivate some characters (PCs or NPCs), or as commentary, than as foreshadowing.

[@KarlJeager]

Prophecies in books tend to just annoy me, usually either it is a clear inevitable telling of the definite future in which case it is useless information or it is so vague as to only make any sense in hindsight in which case it is also useless. Very rarely it is just a possible future but even then it doesn't include any information for how to select the branches of different futures to pick a desirable one so again is useless. The craziest ones are when the characters absolutely believe in the certainty of the prediction but then feel that they have to do something about it, I'm looking at you Macbeth either the witches are talking a bunch of crap and should be ignored or you will be king no matter what you do so maybe starting with murderous treason is a bad idea.

[@chongwillson972]

@KarlJeager what about Prophecy which go like if x dosent then why will happen? like for example odysseus was given a Prophecies that if doesn't murder this baby, the baby WILL kill his family.

[@ferrisffalcis]

currently running a campaign about a prophecy that is upheld by the people who prophesized it working to keep it on track. lots of fun as the players realize that its all more of a scheme than true foresight

[@vladprus4019]

It struck me that in mobile bgame Fate/Grand Order in one of the story parts there is one of my favorites approaches to the prophercy. It purpose is not the vague foreshadowing for the audience. The main focus is on how it affects surrounding society. The unkown is less on "what vague wording means", but more on what is the role of the chosen one? What is their purpose? Why they keep doing it? Story-wise the prophercy is less prediction and more the announcment of the events planned by the higher power.

[@vukkulvar9769]

An idea I had for a D&D campaign was to have the villain make up the prophecy to divide resistance by keeping many people apathetic as they wait for the chosen one.

[@ProjectAtlasmodling]

i would like to see more prophecies where it's missenterpated to beleave that the chosen one is the bad guy kinda like the 'scraped princess', where the mc could ether be the downfall or the saveror, but everyone is trying to kill them

[@Marcus-ki1en]

It would seem, on the face of it, prophecy is the polar opposite of player agency. Unless the prophecy is so general and open ended, it would be an unfortunate tool to rail road a campaign. My favorite prophecy was Jesus predicting that not one stone would be left on another in the Temple. As the story goes, after the destruction of the Temple in AD70, gold covering parts of the Temple had run between the stones and they were pried apart to recover it. Interesting way for the prophecy to come to be.

[@SMT-ks8yp]

Being true is the most important feature of prophecies though. One does not simply undermine it. In Warhammer 40k they went from "wooo their commanders can see future which is how they can win with extremely small forces" to "you see, their prophecies can fail and they don't actually know tactics, so this is why our favourite faction totally doesn't have plot armor this time".

[@chongwillson972]

@SMT-ks8yp ironically in 40K taking off you helmet and having a name basically makes you times powerful.

[@dragonhowto]

I generally dislike rhe traditional fantasy prophecies, so in my campaign setting, the apocalypse prophecy has been telephoned and warped so much that there's multiple wordings to the prophecy each with drastically different meanings and factions pushing each prophecy. The head of the pantheon and his Diviner also refuse to answer any questions about the matter. This silence has been interrupted as a test of faith, cowardice, etc. That way the players can decide with themselves, speculate and debate amongst each other and NPCs, and I can take the story in the direction the players want to go

[@sapphirII]

If you make a video about chosen ones, I recommend reading Kill the Farm Boy. It's makes fun of the trope. In the last book, we see another character with a The Chosen-like curse.(although we know about it in the first)

[@EvilWeiRamirez]

Makes me think of the story of Aroden. The guys at the pod called quest are playing a game, which i think, is telling a story about the world in the wake of aroden's prophecy not coming true.

[@AzraelThanatos]

Prophecy comes in a lot of different ways. Some things, even biblical, are more of a thing where the prophecy is of what would happen if something else doesn't happen. A repent or doom type thing is an interesting one.

[@EiggyRules]

Whilst "The chosen one" is a much maligned storytelling device by modern critics, personally I still love the stories it can create. Or the drama that can come of a dozen or so who all are "the chosen one" untill proven wanting.

[@matthewdaley4403]

Have you looked at Pathfinder's Lost Omens setting at all? It plays with this on several levels with the death of Aroden and the Prophets of Kalistrade.

[@lorekeeper685]

Propeshy will be rough the make. Since Players might do stuff that goes againts the propesy. Tho not all of them are certain, at least Ad&d choronancy book gives room.

[@danielwindler7404]

In my settings prophecy magics are more of a trainable skill. Asf rk why fantasy has so many "perfect prophecy" I would say it doesn't. It's a social selection. The true ones are remembered and the false ones forgotten

[@silvertheelf]

I have a future seeing stone in my D&D game which my players have access to, though it’s rather unhelpful since it changes constantly based on actions taken and the images aren’t very clear, so the players only know that it’s a plot point, not that it actually has any valuable future telling. And the reliable future telling it does tell is literally stuff they already knew because they planned it that way. Lol Aka; Prophecy stone kinda useless ngl. But it can be used to summon special dark forces when put together into the right portal frame. I just think it’s a funny idea to have a prophecy that keeps changing because the people keep doing things that actually thwart the winds of fate forcing it to change.

[@JesseCohoon]

I did a prophecy awhile back for some fiction A powerful enemy dark and great Shall rise to rule the race's fate His deadly creatures stalk the chosen few Who surely will run his plans askew Great are the deeds, greater the war To stop the warlock and even the score

[@Grevnor]

The Elder Scrolls is obviously the gold standard, but I would like to give a shout-out to how Pathfinder handles prophecy, because it's at the very heart of the setting. The current age is known as the Age of Lost Omens, because it started with an event known as the Death of Prophecy. If that sounds ominous, it's because it is. The god Aroden, the immortal last survivor of a precursor civilization (based on Atlantis), who achieved apotheosis centuries ago, and had been the patron god of humanity ever since, was prophecied to return to the material plane to lead his people once again, his faithful knew it down to the day. The appointed day came, and Aroden did not return. His clerics were cut off from the source of their divine magic. Speaking to his Herald, the demigoddess Iomedae, the people learned the unthinkable truth - Aroden was dead. His faithful abandoned his temples, most of them now follow his former herald, now a goddess in her own right, and still known as The Inheritor because of this. The Empire of Taldor he helped found, already in decline, became a shadow of itself, never to recover. The Empire of Cheliax, who saw themselves as the successors to Taldor and devoutly awaited Aroden's return, was plunged into a civil war, the victor of which was the Devil-worshiping House of Thrune. And on top of all of these world-shattering events, prophecy, up to and including divination magic, became notoriously unreliable from that moment onwards.

[@williamstokes4282]

Imagine this, a god send a prophecy to their prophet so that the Hero will hear it and rail against the prophecy and all of this is because the god saw that the Hero was going to fail if they continued on their path but if they were motivated to avoid a certain fate the Hero might be able to survive and save the world. Or two rival gods are giving their followers prophecies that contradict each other, the Elves win so long as Y is true and the Orcs win so long as Y is true. Or a prophecy where a god is just wrong, that's the thing about a lot of gods in fantasy settings they aren't all knowing and are depicted to be very humanlike. Or Prophecy might work in a Laplace's demon sort of way, if one knows where all the pieces(Particles) are they can see where they are going, it works so long as its dealing with a small closed system but as the world becomes more connected and eventually becomes interconnected with other worlds the reliability of Prophecy breaks down as too many factors are now in play.

[@seanfaherty]

Y2K was a possible computer failure, not an apocalyptic prophecy.

[@kelpiekit4002]

Another aspect is that prophecy isn't always for people. In both Greek mythology and Nordic mythology the gods were subject to fate too. In your fantasy world if people can prophecy and bind even the gods in it without them having certainty of its truth then the prophet becomes a subversion of divine hierarchy. Sure, the prophet doesn't choose the truth of the fated prophecy but they choose what they say about it. And even a false prophecy can shake the established systems of that god's worship. And, if fate can be influenced, who does it listen to.

[@barddan7203]

I love Your work man! I swear every episode enhances my world building for my campaigns. I would totally love to see an episode on chosen ones! That's another fantasy trope that I feel is drastically overused but I'd like to know your opinion on using it well or "the right way "

[@Svartalf14]

You forget one thing.... prophecies given by one deity, might be opposed by another deity, and it's a match whose winner will gain worshippers, brownie points and influence.... evil god A has a prophecy that says one thing, and good god B wants to give it the lie through heroes that can overcome mighty obstacles and force those conditions of prophecy A not to be met.

[@richardrahl1001]

Good job differentiating ancient prophecies from oracles and modern ‘prophets.’ Enjoying your channel for a while now.

[@bernardodovalefarias7400]

One interesting take on profecy is on Evilous Chronicles, were a profet queen can talk to a pair of sealed gods, her "predictions" are intentionaly made to manipulate the people to do the gods biding.

[@robertstuckey6407]

Tangent: Supposedly Marx appealed to russian reformers because it predicted the inevitability of revolutuon. Russia had attempted and failed liberal reforms, and the would be reformers turned to marxism because it predicted eventual revolution in spite of this failure. Although not a prophecy, its an interesting take on how future visions affect movements in society.

[@TheEnoEtile]

I like the way The First Law series did it. There's a prophecy, dude fulfilled the prophecy. Turns out the whole thing was a lie and a scam by the guy who made the prophecy.

[@sizanogreen9900]

Regarding chosen ones I gotta think of magical weapons/items which choose their wielders or at least have their own intent and magical powers. Might even be an interesting topic apart from the main chosen one trope.

[@suricatajomicida6626]

In spiderlight the use of the prophecy trope is wonderful.

[@rogerwilco2]

I have a zebra shirt as well. It is red though, and from Rwanda. Where is yours from?

[@astranger934]

Prophecy in fiction is just fancy foreshadowing

[@cobinizer]

The Belgariad by David Eddings had Prophecies as characters with agency. There are two competing prophesies that can only whisper in the ear of "the chosen one" or communicate through the mad. So if you have a prophecy written down, it was written by a madman. I liked it.

[@sskpsp]

I would like to see more of the cultures and religions whence the prophecies spring. It feels patronizing when there is some group that gives the prophecy but ends up doing nothing more than being a prop for the main character. Can there not be cultures whose breadth of experience is more than just pushing the main characters towards their destiny? Dune was one of the better ones for this, but the Fremen still felt like tools of forces greater than themselves, as if they weren't able to shape destiny for themselves, only manically follow what fate and its soldiers commands them to do. Wheel of Time also was decent in most parts with the various regional prophecies, but there were still some cultures that contributed nothing but spectacle, like the Amayar and their prophecy/beliefs.

[@The482075]

I prefer Prophecy as being the Divine will of deities. So basically a plan. Since deities are incredibly powerful, defying their will is extremely difficult. So a story about people defying the prophecy and eventually winning despite many sacrifices, set backs and incredible odds could be interesting. The vast majority of the time prophecy is fulfilled, making the few occasions where it isn't truly story worthy.

[@DylStur]

Amazing video as always. It's always exciting to see you've uploaded because you always have something thought provoking to say that makes me look at my work in a different light and contemplate how I could improve it.

[@sylviancreedmarsh9171]

The Mayan calendar didn’t end in 2012. It was just the turning of an age + the moment at which this current world of creation has outlived the previous one.

[@Grungeon_Master]

Yeah, I must have misspoken, at least implying the wrong thing, as I'm getting a few comments in this vein. You're right.

[@sylviancreedmarsh9171]

@@Grungeon_Master That’s ok :) I should’ve read the comments before posting 😅

[@lonjohnson5161]

I saw a problem with prophecy in fiction when the reboot of Battlestar Galactica included prophecies. Ron Moore would throw prophecies in, not knowing what they would mean later. This resulted in viewers wasting time trying to figure out what they meant and being disappointed when BG didn't deliver satisfactorily. From this experience, I have formed a rule for myself. I must know if a prophecy is true or not when first introduced and if true, in what way it is true. If you watch Babylon 5, you can see J. Michael Straczynski follows this rule (virtually all are true in some way) and when the prophecies are fulfilled, it is usually satisfying. (I'm not saying that the satisfaction came from following the rule, but rather his ability to craft a satisfying story naturally came from his knowing where he was going.)

[@Maholix]

This video gave me a great idea. What if you made a campaign where it was the god who was the real problem? Say for example this divine being speaks conflicting predictions to different mouthpieces and steps back to watch. Perhaps this is how they test their most faithful, only backing the winning sect, thus making the prophecy "fulfilled" once a favorite is picked. Or perhaps the divine does nothing, only seeking entertainment.. and then takes credit for great actions they didn't even aid in. Ethier way, both prophets would rightly think they have a divine intervention to speak of, both be legitimate, but would likely not trust each other.

[@musicjax]

I would love a video about chosen ones. It would also be interesting to have a video that analyzes government in fantasy such as its preoccupation with monarchy and if its depiction of monarchy is in any way based in reality.

[@Andrewtr6]

Divination is a common part of my magic system for my fantasy world. However, there are hundreds of different methods of divination such as pyromancy, necromancy, astrology, and theomancy. But mages typically only specialize in a certain form. Divination through dreams is the most common. Each form though has pros and cons with a major con being accuracy. There's also a certain level of skill that comes with it. Some oracles or prophets just suck at it and their prophecies aren't accurate. The prophecy will always come true. The only reason a prophecy would be wrong is if the oracle got it wrong. Another place skill may factor in is with how easy they are to understand. Prophecies are influenced by how the oracle interprets them. Sometimes what they see has multiple meanings but a more skilled divinator may be more certain about one meaning. As for false prophecies, those would come from false prophets- basically, if a prophecy is wrong, it's cause of human error. Personally, I feel like if prophecies could be wrong, that would completely undermine part of my magic system. I do agree that prophecies in fiction are usually "this person has to go and do this usually to prevent this" which I do like especially in the Percy Jackson and the Olympians books. However, I do like the idea of a prophet giving a warning something like "if you continue x then x will happen" or "if you don't do x then x will be your fate". Also, a prophet delivering a prophecy that sparks a war would be crazy. As I said, I don't want to undermine my magic so I would probably go the route of false prophets or the oracle interpreting the prophecy wrong (human error). With the idea of error in mind, I should mention that authenticating a prophecy is difficult as it's rare that multiple oracles see the same thing. Because of this, prophecies are often believed based on the prophet's past predictions. The more accurate they are, the better the reputation of the divinator meaning the more likely their predictions will be believed. This does mean if an absolute no one has a prophecy of impending doom, they likely will not be believed until parts of the prophecy come true (and even then, no one might).

[@Coffy-chan]

Prophecy about heroes tend to be true, but a failed prophecy isn't uncommon in villain backstories. Promises of a better tomorrow failing and creating bitter people who now have to live under these "false gods."

[@MySerpentine]

Prophecy is the time travel of information and should be treated as such.

[@malcolmdarke5299]

"If you attack the Persians, a mighty empire will fall."

[@justcallmemichael6682]

If you absolutely love prophecies in stories, The Belgariad series and the Mallorean series does it extremely well

[@dolphinwarlord6908]

I think it might be interesting if you cover how a non believer could work in fantasy (not gods just powerful mortals, not worth worship)

[@HelotOnWheels]

D&D gods tend to be pagan rather than Abrahamic. That is, they are beings of superhuman but still very finite power and intelligence. Thus, it is reasonable to suppose that even genuine divine prophecies might be wrong in the D&D world. Moreover, D&D nowhere specifies that all gods need or even want worshipers. Some of the more chaotic-aligned deities (Hermes and Loki come to mind) might be perfectly capable of deliberately issuing a false prophecy just because they expect the results to be amusing, without caring that this will cost them worshipers and make their future prophecies less credible.

[@Kindlesmith70]

Heh. Prophecies. I like when the result breaks prophecies, and it wasn't even intentional, which throws so much into chaos considering the weight that was put into it. this can even include a prophecy that was misinterpreteded, or misused. edit: lol you mention some stuff in the video. i posted this comment before watching it.

[@magister343]

How can unclear punctuation be an interesting feature in the ambiguities of prophecy in the ancient world when punctuation had not even been invented yet? People did not even put spaces between words back then. Punctuation is not nearly as important in declined languages with very regular case endings though.

[@FamfritFW]

I personally really dislike the "Chosen One" trope because it's so stale and played out, but would totally enjoy a critical piece about it!

[@CJLloyd]

I dislike prophecy in fiction for much the same reason as I dislike time travel. It's overdone and tends to be either confusing or boring. There are rare examples of a great middle ground, but not many.

[@richardsmith3917]

I'd wonder what would constitute as a miracle in a world of magic? Why would some savior being resurrected from the dead mean anything. When lots of people get resurrected in a world of magic

[@deinsilverdrac8695]

yeah, i never was a fan of how prophecies or divination work, the destiny bs and "future is already written", even if i like the idea of a phorphecy being vague and can be accomplished with vague thing and plot twist, playing with the word of it. it work very well sometimes, but generally it"s kind of stupid and very poorly made. In my world prophecies are kind of just very complex prediction, just like how we can tell the weather will change, and the more you go in the future, the more difficult and vague it get. Prophecies can be usefull sometimes but not convenient, nor reliable. The oracle simply contact spirits that specialise in making prediction, by collecting data and analyse it (about peoples, the environment, societies etc.), those spirit can see and memorise everything, and will try to know how they work to anticipate their action and reaction in different situation, making "what if scenario" in their head. But they can't interact with the world or change it, their only influence reside in communication to some mortals. Those mortal, the oracles, can receive vision of the probable future, from these spirits. But can struggle to interpret them, as spirits minds are different and do not communicate in the same way. So those spirit may know how some people will react in certain situation, or know some subtle change that may be sign of future disaster, because they've seen that before. But those predictions get less and less precise over the time, they can know how someone will react in the next hours, but not what they will do in 2 years, they're bad with impredictable and chaotic things. A prophecy can change if new data appear, when the situation have changed, making them not that reliable. You can avoid a prophecy, but it's not always easy, if you do a half baked plan to avoid it you might just induce the situation needed for that prophecy to be true. An oracle can predict where will you try to hit next, because your action are easily previsible in a fight. (doesn't mean they can avoid it, even if they know the artificier is gonna use an explosive he will not be able to avoid the explosion everytime). An oracle can predict who will win the election, because people and especially group are predictable if you know how they work. However if an outside event, like an accident happen and kill one candidate, the situation will change from their prediction. It's possible to completely meddle with a prediction by being totally random and out of character, trying to outsmart the oracle and the spirits, or by having spells which make it impossible for the spirit to read your mind and know who you are and how you think and react, or at least they will struggle to do it.

[@neoqwerty]

There's some amazing work to be had within a predetermined universe (where fate is immutable and if you try to get out of it you'll coincidentally just end up in the same situation, so all real precognition/divination is real), but that generally comes with dealing with the fact that free will isn't real in that setting, just its illusion. If you didn't think about deterministic universes as a philosophical thought exercise you're pretty much guaranteed to end up having boring prophecies. Bif you start thinking of predetermination and think of all the weird stuff in physics where OBSERVING something can change its properties-- then can fated actions be changed because a prophecy observed and measured it? Then there's your predictability dynamics too, that's also a good way to throw a curveball!

[@zazor701]

During the part where you mentioned different prophets having different prophecies for political reasons and to keep their position, it made me think that it would be interesting if a god purposefully gave different prophets different versions of the same prophecy because the god enjoys messing with people.

[@anthonyyates9003]

So y2k was really a thing but because people spotted it far enough in advance a lot of very talented programmes found answers and work arounds

[@wynq]

I think he's more referring to the prophecy that the year 2000 would bring the apocalypse, not the y2k bug.

[@anthonyyates9003]

@@wynq but then why call it the y2k which was actually a thing?

[@KarlJeager]

@@anthonyyates9003 There were also a lot of people who after hearing about the y2k bug latched on to the inevitable end of civilisation and would not listen to anyone telling them it was fixable, so there is quite a bit of overlap.

[@SquirrelGamez]

Prophecies in real life: sometimes true, sometimes not, based on guesses and extrapolation but pretending to be based on mystic visions. Prophecies in Fantasy: usually based on REAL magic visions, so usually true. It's not a problem, it's consequence of having actual divination magic or visions.

[@JAH711]

I appreciate you mangling my thoughts 😂

[@lukekebell3146]

I honestly beleive GoW: Ragnarok adheres & subverts the prophecy/fate stuff so well. Its one of those things that just makes senae when you think about it [SPOILERS BELLOW] The Norns (Norse Fates) tell Kratos his fate but that there is no fate. Gods are just so predictable in their actions that even if you tell them whats gonna happen, they will act against it in a way that adheres ro their own nature. Essentially becoming a self-fulfilling prophecy. You could just never tell them whats gonna happen but they will continue to behave in a manner where the fated act happens. For example: Kratos is told that he will die by Odin's hand if he kills Heindall. Or Heimdall will kill Atreus & Kratos will fall later trying to avenge his son. He trys to defy fate by sparing Heimdall but is forced (in a anger) to kill him because the foolish guy threatened to kill Atreus anyway... but he manages ro defy the "you will die" part by opening up to his son & them mutually agreeing to be open/keep the others voice in mind when alone. Its a nice aubversion thats allows them to 'take a third option' if you will.

[@chrisdiokno5600]

Not always true, bur fair

[@Puzzles-Pins]

So fantasy prophecies are better than real life prophecies. Where's the problem?

[@RubbrChickn]

Rango subverts this trope

[@skywise001]

I liked playing around with prophecy being true but many god and relligions hiding it away so you had to hunt to find the real divine message.

[@MauroDraco]

Nice topic, Tom!

[@Pyre]

On one note, a world where the gods are a fiction or only real enough to allow for people to pretend to prophecies gifted by them screams of the kind of religious trauma so many people play games to avoid or even fight. On another, related: a faith that has just enough connection to its god to have a direct prophet, but not being bound to listening to them if they dislike what they have to say is deeply compelling, if Dollar & Wolfe Trading Company is anything to go by. I love the angle described in the video, but it feels like it needs a balance tabletop games, and even most stories, are largely ill-suited for. Eberron's gods are real, but impose no actual control over the behavior of those who claim to follow them. Commit genocide in the name of the god of goodness and light, literally nothing will stop you. The Faerun model sees gods far too active to allow for misunderstandings like this. It feels like you'd need one of two specific approaches for this. The first is where prophecies are accurate, but not *guaranteed* : foretellings of things that will or must happen, or else the failure state is catastrophe. This works great for tabletop games, even if the prophecy is less than clear, because establishing stakes for the players can be very motivating. The second is the Wheel of Time book series. Where deific powers are real, but only one of them is talking. Where everybody *knows* prophecies are true, and accurate, but the *interpretation* of those prophecies and what they demand varies between nations, organizations, even individuals. Where powerful people and people without power do great things, terrible things, or both. Because they are used to acting with decisiveness and surety, or because they must for their own and others' sake. Tom is, if anything, underselling what plot threads like this can do for a story. But that can be a thorny line to walk on.

[@kennym249]

Perfect prophecy? No one knows about the nerevarine prophecy in elder scrolls?

[@SkylerLinux]

So Y2K was a real thing, however because of all Time and Money that was put into diverting the bad outcome of Y2K. So that one was defeated

[@yellingintothewind]

Your age is showing with this one. Y2K was a very real threat, which required enormous work in advance to mitigate. Unless microsoft dropped the ball, it was never going to be consumer machines that were the problem. It was the millions of lines of business logic (much written in Cobol) dating back to the 70s and 80s, responsible for billing and similar functions, that could have caused an incredible mess. Fortunately, the problem was realized in time to mitigate, much like the 2038 limit is already being mitigated. So the end result was only a handful of problems where edge cases got missed, rather than a collapse of the then-current business infrastructure.

[@yellingintothewind]

Just looked it up. Inflation adjusted, the total cost to audit and update the old systems is somewhere in the 3/4 trillion USD range, with major efforts kicking off in 94 and 95.