What Should a Fantasy University Be Like?

[@Grungeon_Master]

So, as sometimes happens, I've made a mistake in this video. When I do, I like to try to own up to it. In focusing my reading on the history and development of the modern university, I have completely overlooked institutions in Asia which are divorced from this timeline. Especially in India, and China, which are regrettably significant blind spots in my knowledge. I stand by my classification that the greek-styled academic organisations weren't 'universities' in the modern sense, but it is certainly arguable that these Asian places of higher learning fit my definition. As such, a central claim in this video is indeed false: I stated that polytheistic universities haven't existed in our world. However, I do defend my conclusions as to what that could look like in a fantasy world. I'd just point anyone interested towards Buddhist and Hindu places of higher learning for more information. Either way, apologies for the blind spot, and I'll have to educate myself better in the future. Thanks, -Tom.

[@MetaKnight1996]

jkw.psdr.lipi.go.id/index.php/jkw/article/view/276/151 Here's an interesting article on Edo's schools for studying imported dutch technology for a premodern and non-monotheist example. If we're talking about settings of the "lost ancient empire" variety, this actually works quite well as mass reverse engineering technology and then localizing it to the cultural context. this makes good sense for a more advanced precursor society, just as much as if your setting has a technological imbalance in its development.

[@Noroh____0]

Perhaps a better and more complete observation might be that university-style organizations develop where there is a significant concentration of power and a need for technical skill. In India Both Hindu and Buddhist centers of learning were concentrated around sacred scriptures, despite both being nominally polytheistic. This was due, in part, to a broad agreement on what writings held religious authority, making it necessary to study a limited amount of texts and naturally consolidating learned people. Another important driver of academic development in history was astrology, especially in India, the Middle East, and Egypt. I am surprised the Egyptian Priest-Scribes slipped your mind as while little is known about how they were educated the nature of that education has much in common with medieval European academic centers, but polytheistic in nature. The centralizing force there was the Pharaoh, as all of the Priests ultimately answered to them. The History of China is long and complicated but offers another flavor of centralization via absolute monarch. The Emperor of China during certain dynasties had a sort of standardized test. Everybody knew what poetry, law, and religious texts would be on that test, and it had to be written in a particular style to even be judged. Thus, even without establishing a central university the Emperor was able to dictate a rigid curriculum to tens of thousands of hopefuls. This was all to aid in developing bureaucrats to manage the nightmarishly vast and disconnected Empire of China, and the weaker the various incarnations of China was the less needed and fewer of these scholars there were. Also do not forget in fantasy that there are sometimes gods who interfere. Perhaps there is not a Pope to elevate seminaries into universities, but the High Priest of the Goddess of Knowledge and Healing might hold not-insignificant international clout, and perhaps orders the construction of schools to teach medicine. Perhaps in one country the national god of war has become politically powerful due to the king being both a devotee and bellicose in his policy, so an officers college is constructed by the church but attendance is mandated by the king. To conclude I think, despite the unintentional focus on European academic development, that this video was fascinating and had quite a few points that were well worth making, but the topic is too broad for a twenty minute video. Perhaps, if you feel up to it, follow up videos more narrow in scope or longer in length could bridge that gap, as I would love to hear more from you on this topic. Please continue as I find your content engaging even when I disagree.

[@zhcultivator]

please make a video on Modernized Fantasy, kzbin.info/www/bejne/n3quZ6xpqquhjqcsi=Ts-DXZgzgJwMt5YH

[@zhcultivator]

please make an iceberg video-style video on demihumans in fantasy 🙏 please

[@zhcultivator]

please make a video about Modernized fantasy, kzbin.info/www/bejne/n3quZ6xpqquhjqcsi=kspOQxalaZ6dRPbX

[@recursiveslacker7730]

“…so that, class, is why a spell appears to function for different reasons and expend different amounts of mana in different moving reference frames. Tomorrow we will learn how adding gravitational curvature can alter the behavior of magical effects that traverse along null geodesics.”

[@Grungeon_Master]

.... I have summoned the maths knowers... May the gods rest my soul.

[@recursiveslacker7730]

@@Grungeon_Master imagine a spelljammer that followed the rules of special relativity. Every trip turns into time travel. Hm, maybe THAT’S how the mind flayers went back in time to set up their own existence. They pulled a Xeelee, basically.

[@Ivel1oss]

​@@recursiveslacker7730Now that is a reference. Best inspo for a dungeon master who likes to homebrew races.

[@Drudenfusz]

I would suggest looking at ancient Greece instead of medieval Europe to see how academies could exist in a polytheistic environment. Of course ancient china and their magistrate schools would also worth a peek. After all, should fantasy not be more than just Europe?

[@russellharrell2747]

European Medieval Feudalism Only (EMFO) 24-7-365 (I’m actually super tired of the assumed euro-centric fantasy worlds. Let’s see more Dark Sun-esque worlds, worlds where the civilized parts are underwater or underground and the savage wilderness is on land or even the cloud tops, or truly alien environments where even the laws of nature can’t be assumed)

[@Grungeon_Master]

@Drudenfusz You are right, to a certain extent. Both are great topics. I suppose my focus here was on what we call 'universities' specifically, which, I admit is a much smaller niche than academies or educational establishments more broadly. There's definitely a lot of room to look at schooling practices, as well as academies (both military and political) much closer. Perhaps once I've emptied out my current ideas chest, lol!

[@DamienZshadow]

He did mention madrasas in the Muslim world but China was notorious for its universities.

[@asahearts1]

A lot of westernized cultivation novels have been coming out lately. It's a whole thing. It's kind of to be expected that people would write for a setting from which their own ancestors came and which they're most familiar with, though. I don't really see a lot of Chinese or Korean stories with a European setting. That being said, though, Japan really loves European settings (so the Japanese isekai protag can introduce Japanese food and customs lol )

[@DamienZshadow]

@@asahearts1 They specifically love german culture. A very specific era of german culture.

[@Vafbrudnir]

Witches in swamps are legitimate forms of education. All jokes aside i could see some sort of an organisation that sends out apprentice mages to become successors of specialists which have hereditary arts

[@colbyboucher6391]

Yeah, literally apprentice programs. BUT the "witch in a swamp" trope is kinda due to witches being taboo to the point of wanting to hide

[@AzraelThanatos]

@@colbyboucher6391 It also works for a more herbalism based thing, the witch in the swamp is staying where her materials are for her art.

[@morrigankasa570]

If they are Attractive, that Witch can be a very good lover;)

[@solsystem1342]

​@@colbyboucher6391 Witch is such a muddled term because there's like three different concepts that have nothing to do with eachother wrapped under that label. First you have like pre-Christian European religious leaders/specialists. Then you have the fictional boogieman "the witch" invented much later which is like more prevalent now as like a trope about the past then it was actually common in history😅. Then you have modern neo-pagan movements which are just a whole other thing. Idk nothing makes sense and like every witch trope we have is filtered through like at least two different weird literary and cultural frames😂

[@gamervox1707]

Schools where not only created by monotheistic but by philosophy groups, different gods/goddess of knowledge, and weird knowledge cults.

[@Al-Jabroni]

Some of your favorite examples?

[@gamervox1707]

@@Al-Jabroni Pythagoreanism is one. Egypt had schools because of their knowledge god. I think a lot of weird philosoply cult that came from Greece where consider school or school subjects.

[@DamienZshadow]

Sure, but not full-blown universities with qualifications that guarantee some level of universal authority in the region at large.

[@gamervox1707]

@@DamienZshadow Universities from guild, and not from most monotheist institutions. In fact, it is wonderful we even have such institutions from all the conservative monotheist hating them.

[@alyssahallister]

@@Al-Jabroni I was shocked that he completed ignored the existence of the Lyceum, the 4-year proto-university of Athens, dedicated to Apollo, which is where Aristotle taught. Today, the word is mostly used for the equivalent of a high school, but that's because of Napoleon and the French borrowing the word, when the original institution was for philosophers, both natural and otherwise. (It's important to note that 'natural philosophy' is what 'physics' was referred to in the pre-modern era.)

[@the_mad_fool]

There is a critical difference in the degree of practicality between a D&D world and ours, which is that knowledge directly translates into military power. Wizards and Clerics, with sufficient study and practice, are unimaginably powerful forces on a battlefield, and a lord without such magical assets would be quickly destroyed by a neighbor who does. This creates a very different context for universities, because the political will to attract and train magical scholars would be a pressing, imminent concern for any ruler. D&D academies and universities would be much more likely to resemble military academies, with extensive standardized exams to qualify wizards and clerics for state service. Graduates who fail to qualify for Royal service would likely be recruited by noble families to serve as retainers, or join mercenary companies that travel the land killing monsters and fighting wars. Which is to say, D&D would be much more likely to have anime-style magic academies, complete with their militaristic structure and heavy emphasis on practical skills. There may even be different academies for different social classes, both due to disparities in education and because the crown must be very careful not to raise a powerful mage who opposes him. Of course, this also means that these academies can hold enormous military power on their own, which may lead to independent academies who are able to resist being ruled by anyone.

[@HelotOnWheels]

Or monarchs who don't like having to pander to wizards to maintain their power learn to enslave them instead, like the Seanchan from Terry Jordan's Wheel of Time.

[@the_mad_fool]

@@HelotOnWheels I agree, though I do think that has to be approached carefully. Historically, that's not something that's ever really worked, so you'd need to take great care to justify it. The closest would maybe be the Mamlukes? But they took over pretty fast.

[@SusCalvin]

Artillery schools. You needed to know a bit of math to be an artillerist. People had to learn how to read artillery charts, measure powder and other things you can't drill into a man in a few months. Understanding how to make and break increasingly complex star forts requires very specialized knowledge. Some AD&D settings have realms where the crown sponsors a sort of magic ROTC program. You are not all inducted into the standing armed forces, but the crown can be a sponsor if you sign up for a sort of reserve status.

[@llamatronian101]

When national security depends on education, you get universities. Just a different type. Plenty of old schools still have their military trappings. Like having the children wearing army and navy uniforms.

[@jaredragland4707]

There's also a geopolitical aspect to who founds colleges in a feudal society: most kings and potentates, sure, but there well could be dukes, counts, and barons wealthy (and ambitious) enough to found their own, competing schools. Insert church politics (many e.g. abbeys and bishops' seats come complete with temporal titles) and you have yourself a recipe for volatility and a patron for any number of adventures.

[@michaelpettersson4919]

Playing Skyrim I noticed that the magic collage are know, apart from teaching magic, for their library. Apperantly people visits them to study non magic related topics like history as well. The librarian often send the player out to track down books to add to the library as well he sells surplus books. The bard's college also got a good library.

[@sizanogreen9900]

Bah! Only misguided milkdrinkers visit the college for any reason! Have you seen what they did to winterhold? Dangerous lunatics, all of them.

[@robertstuckey6407]

Universities started out as unions of students. Maybe polytheistic universities start when the various cults banded together since they already share the convention center basement?

[@flibbernodgets7018]

3:41 don't forget Cruel and Unusual Geography, that's my favorite! Also, I believe the point of UU is to distract and keep the wizards complacent so they don't start wars again, as you can see in Sourcery. The bloat serves the story, not just the parody, though who knows if that was his original intention

[@kennyfauste6901]

There's actually a good example of a fantasy of a scolar making up information about creatures, Volos guide to monsters. It's an in-universe tome written by the wizard Volo of waterdeep. Hes a scolar and wizard who writes about various things in the faerun setting.

[@recursiveslacker7730]

Volo and Pliny the Elder in a BS-off would be a sight to see.

[@GoranXII]

Long before universities, there were the various Hellenistic Academies. Also, if magic becomes a thing, expect some sort of school system to be set up very early, to ensure that people learn how to use the stuff without becoming a danger to others. Indeed, this is similar to the primary reason behind Pratchett's UU, to be a place where mages can meet without immediately trying to kill each other. You can also start with something akin to guilds. After all, if you have a bunch of people practising folk-medicine, it would behove a smart ruler to set up a school for such individuals, to disseminate useful knowledge, and quell bad ideas.

[@Andrewtr6]

In my fantasy story, magic is taught either in small local covens or at large academies. The coven system is older and more cultural because of that. Covens were comprised of parents, grandparents, and other family members or elders in the community who taught magic to the younger generations. Academies have their origins in temples where mages would learn worship magic (making them equivalent to DnD clerics). These temples slowly became libraries where scrolls of magic were securely stored. Mages of exceptional skill would travel to them to study ancient texts or to study magic itself (but these libraries did not have teachers). Some of these talented mages would try to spread this knowledge by becoming traveling teachers. However, due to the traditionalist nature of many communities, the idea of forming academies for teaching magic outside of their community was rejected. That was until a major war occurred and most mages would barely compete with new technology like guns and tanks. Other academies did exist, but they didn't teach magic. To kinda contradict myself, any teaching establishments that did exist were almost completely exclusive to the rich, nobles, or royalty because they costed money to attend. Many of the attempts to establish similar academies were squashed by the ruling class to keep the commoners beneath them. These academies were accused of teaching illegal magic or offending the gods. The societies in my story are almost all polytheistic because their gods are real. However, after the war not only had the royals lost their hold, but the fear of another war with deadlier weapons created the right pressure for the academies to form. I should also mention that up until this point members of any coven could only become as strong as their strongest member. At first, these schools aren't overwhelmingly accepted by the elite nor the traditionalist covens. The first school was more like a military camp which became a major base during the next war (only 20 years after the last). This war showed how much a formal education could change the course of a war; once it was over, these academies became more common and would teach younger students. I should also mention, there were many underground schools that formed during the time when it wasn't legal. These schools did teach a wide variety of magic including demonology which was a crime under the crown. These school continued to exist into the modern age of my story. These schools have a dark reputation due to rumors and folktales.

[@johnnieboy765]

There is also the idea of student run colleges. The idea is that you have a group of relatively wealthy people who want to know about a subject. These students pool their wealth and hire tutors who then instruct the group. Once the students feel they have learned what they want from their instructor they will send them on their way and hire another. Because they have been able to spend so much time studying, they eventually become relatively knowledgeable. If new students are allowed to join the group, they might rapidly pick up information from their new peers as they are brought up to speed. So you might have some noble scions who are never going to inherit a title as well as the occasional child of wealthy merchants trying to reach out to a powerful and frightening witch who dwells in the nearby swamp for instruction on alchemy and curses. Later they might work together to summon a demon for instruction on self defense.

[@nikolas3198]

While there are normal universities in my DnD world, I also use the guilds, like the mages guild, fighters guild, merchant's guild, etc to function more as universities, and not just like the typical guilds.

[@thekaxmax]

Universities started as guilds of students.

[@ggwp2797]

I personally always imagined most instructions of magical learning would have little do do with academic research but rather be a place where students are taught a practical skillset of sorts, combining a multitude of "magical" disciplines , perhaps on a somewhat basic or intermediary level, that are already well understood through what might be many millennia of master-apprentice or in some way monastic tradition based accumulation of knowledge. Realistically, unless we are considering a setting where literally everything can be considered magical in nature, only an empire-level stately entity could have the means, both man-power and funding -wise, to maintain an arcane academy the likes of the Arcane University from the elder scrolls series.

[@snake7075]

I could see a church to Mystra(or the magic god for the setting) being a sort of school/university for magic

[@schw4rztee502]

The binary search reminds me on how in the Avatar Universe (Nickelodeon, not Cameron) the earthsages determine a new avatar. They use geomancy to divine in which half of the Kingdom the avatar lives and repeat the ritual until they know exactly which house the avatar calls home.

[@moshecallen]

My frustration with the dark academia tropes is that the the people writing them do not understand what formal academia is.

[@krinkrin5982]

I would add to this that any nation with an established national identity and a form of patriotism would probably at some point set up a military academy to train its officers. If the nation in question employs technology to a substantial extent, various fields of engineering (including architecture) can also be subjects. In a world full of ancient ruins hiding powerful and possibly extremely dangerous secrets, I can see archeology and history being important subjects as well.

[@Morvelaira]

"I have more to say, but I really shouldn't keep you." - The Grungeon Master "No! No! Keep me!" -Me

[@s.q.10-e66]

The points you make about using magic to learn information about the world is something that I have long thought. The principles of magnification that make telescopes possible also make microscopes possible, so no reason a scry spell could focus on a cellular level. Also, logically, any modern technological effect or convenience that could be produced or replicated magically would be. So any reasonably constructed fantasy society would have a quality of life equal to or possibly greater than modern life.

[@anvos658]

Your premise is flawed as it assumes magic is an infinite resource that can do whatever you want without draw backs. See for example Final Fantasy 7 where there is effectively only so much magical energy that can be safely used/harvested without upsetting the cosmological balance and slowly killing the planet. Alternatively look at something like Warhammer/Dragon Age, where abusing magic leads to demons being attracted to the mage and breaking into the physical world.

[@H1Guard]

Gods within a pantheon are more competitors than enemies. Many temples in smaller communities would serve all or most of the patheon. Clerics would go through a common general education. It would be at a high school level and junior college all rolled together. Their "senior thesis" would be specialization to one deity. University applies to more advanced theology, and to natural philosophy (science) and law. A Greek pantheon would see universities start with Athena, for example.

[@SusCalvin]

AD&D used the idea of portfolios. A god is tied to domains in the natural world. A race like dwarfs or gnolls, an aspect like war or harvest or engineering etc. The temple of Lathander isn't stepping on the domain-toes of the temple of Gond. Moradin is the god of dwarfs and doesn't really care to spread his ideals beyond them. The gods and their followers can have ideals that conflict but Forgotten Realms is not really a world of large crusades. It is possible in those games to whack another god and grab their portfolio. Gods have died now and then, and their portfolios have been stolen or snapped up by others. Dark Sun and Planescape lie on the other extreme. The gods on Athas are dead and gone, and the city of Sigil is barred to all gods.

[@buboniccraig896]

I have a setting where the magic system is about making contracts with otherworldly entities (so everyone's a warlock for lack of a better comparison) so the academic monk faction has this world's equivalent of harvard law school.

[@zacharyweaver276]

I like the idea that wizards/mages would get jobs teaching magic to fund their research and also to create skilled apprentices to assist them

[@thekaxmax]

so they'd have to get together and organise, can't do that with the apprenticeship system

[@zacharyweaver276]

@@thekaxmax also the reason a powerful wizard might open their own college

[@thekaxmax]

@@zacharyweaver276 to offload the demand onto other teachers, apart from anything else. Plus, employing a manager and accountant rather than wasting their own time.

[@colbyboucher6391]

The Mage's Guild in the Elder Scrolls (the actual guild, not that joke in Skyrim) is one of the cooler magical groups in fantasy IMO. Rather than being secretive hermits someone went "wait, we can sell this shit" and started organizing mages around selling their services, training new mages, getting underlings to do the boring stuff and collectively gaining political power.

[@thekaxmax]

@@colbyboucher6391 they made themselves a university with a contracting arm.

[@asahearts1]

Best magic school is Cyoria Royal Academy of Magical Arts from Mother of Learning. Located in the city of Cyoria which boasts one of the largest mana wells, it was established to educate nobility since magic apprenticeships were insufficient to maintain the country's military strength. Since the advent of firearms and a plague, the numbers of nobility have been reduced, so now many commoners come to the university to become mages.

[@llamatronian101]

Military academies are another possible seed for a university seeking and teaching wider knowledge. In a time of peace you don't need a big artillery factory (magic school if you prefer) but you can't just build one instantly when a war starts. You need to keep the mages happy and busy so they don't go to the neighbouring kingdom instead.

[@asahearts1]

@@llamatronian101 Lorian Heights is a military academy from Arcane Ascension. It combines the military academy aspect with the magical hotspot and religious aspects. It's built next to a spire filled with traps and monsters, where the goddess Selys gives magical powers to those who perform well. Spires also produce ambient mana which allows mages to cast more spells and magical items to recharge faster. Other countries have their own spires and a lot of the politics is centered around countries trying to get their own people into other countries' spires through alliances or conquest.

[@HelotOnWheels]

So Tom, you’re always on the lookout for new video subjects, right? How about “What would D&D castles be like?” Castles are a mainstay of the genre, they’re freaking awesome to look at, and they’re where the real “dungeons” that inspired the first half of the name “Dungeons & Dragons” were built. But what should a castle look like in a world with flying dragons, teleporting wizards, and burrowing purple worms look like? Are there spikes on the turrets to repel dragons? Are permanent anti-magic shells, or ordinary lead, built into the foundations? Would they be motte-and-bailey, concentric, floating on clouds? What strategic points would they guard? It seems to me this would be a great subject, maybe even for more than one video.

[@torg2126]

A flying castle is one Antimagic Field away from crashing, as discovered in the seconds following Carsus's Folley.

[@CitanulsPumpkin]

If complex spellcraft is on the table the subjects and research studied at a fantasy university would be more similar to research done at modern-day scientific universities and institutions rather than the studies conducted at Medieval to Victorian era colleges. The study of spell structures themselves would probably always be the most popular and well funded field of research. The main questions to answer with any fantasy college are simple. 1. Who founded the school and why? 2. Who runs the day to day operations? 3. What is the most popular field of study, and what is the least popular field? 4. Does the scientific method exist in the setting? There's no reason why an adventuring party couldn't specialize in running errands for students and faculty. A field trip needs body guards. A professor needs mostly intact bodies for dissection. An ostracized undergrad needs a pivotal piece of information or unobtainium to finish their thesis. The rival school stole the school mascot, and now someone needs to hunt down and retrieve or kill it before it eats a townie. A lab experiment gained sentience and a thirst for blood. A disgraced former/rejected student or faculty member is trying to kill everybody. Some students did a scene for scene rehash of Porky's, Revenge of the Nerds, or Animal House and now the students who did all the stuff in those movies that hasn't aged well in the last thirty plus years need to be hunted down. There's so many adventure hooks you can get out of just dropping any group of PCs into the middle of a college campus and then having them work odd jobs and commit violence for any student who will pay them. This is so useful that I tend to drop research enclaves and satellite offices from Strixhaven's colleges of Lorehold, Qiandrix, and Witherbloom into most of my settings. If there is a rare and interesting bit of flora/fauna, an ancient lost civilization, or an unknown spatial anomaly in a place, then there's countless reasons for both adventures and those three Strixhaven colleges to be there as well.

[@lloydy272]

Thank you. A couple of years ago I ran a Wizards University campaign and as a scientist and active research academic at a university, I had considered some of what you covered, but I found many of your suggestions and well thought out discussion on the topic very insightful and useful and if I ever run this campaign again, I will have to take some of this onboard to flesh out the setting.

[@tanetimling1301]

Geospatial Mapping Wizards has been on my list of concepts to explore, thanks for expanding on that with the statistics angle

[@EyeOfMagnus4E201]

As always, your videos are quite thoughtful and filled with interesting, useful concepts from which I will steal shamelessly. 👍👍

[@thekaxmax]

can't steal what he's giving away. :P

[@ronjaj.addams-ramstedt1023]

Dammit! I use video essays as background entertainment while I do chores. "Talking heads" are not supposed to be so engaging that I sit down, enthralled, to focus solely on the video. How dare you! ;-)

[@michaelpettersson4919]

Sometimes it is even worse, they can be so interesting that we actually sit down and watch the them talk rather than just listen.

[@Grungeon_Master]

Wow, thanks, I really appreciate that!

[@VinylcoteYT]

if that’s how you feel, you should listen to their whole discography. Talking Heads 10/10

[@Grinnar]

The accent makes it even more enthralling. Kudos on all the deep thoughts, by the way.

[@SusCalvin]

The empire in WFRP is in the middle of medicine as craft (barber-surgeons, apothecaries and travelling leechers) and medicine as science (physicians, surgeons, apothecaries). A barber treats lancing a boil or pulling a tooth as a craft that can be learned through practice, either in master-apprentice relations or in a larger guild structure. Physicians study in medical colleges and disseminate works and try to research the body.

[@josuanygren]

gotta love this little guy talking about fantasy stuff parallel to real history

[@DMRaptorJesus]

He's a good egg, I don't play modern D&D systems really, but he has some great ideas I steal from all the time. I really enjoyed his video on monks for the same reason!

[@Sirfinchyyy]

I've recently had the idea of comparing d&d spellcasting to math. A wizard would be like a studied professor while a sorcerer would be more like a savant. (I havent thought about divine casters or other arcane casters like bards.) But with that system i'd allow players to experiment with the mathematical formulae to alter spells in certain ways, success or failure depending on skill checks cuz im not great with anything past high school math myself. But i think it would allow for the creation of new spells or to alter certain aspects of existing ones. Think a cold fireball or wall of acid, extended duration or changing the aoe. Im not 100% sure what that would do to game balance but would be an interesting twist to the spellcasting classes.

[@HmmBearGrr]

Comparing what you’ve said in the video so far with the contents of the official 5e book on this is really interesting, because Strixhaven, as a book, if you ignore the connection to MTG, completely avoids the logistical concerns you outline by being a multiversal institution. When every possible universe is interconnected, everywhere is urban and a private academy like Strixhaven would almost certainly appear at some point to find and educate those from every world who it sees are deserving. Edit after finishing the video: A Multiversity seems to quite easily solve every possible concern. Interesting how WOTC didn’t try to manage the whole deal of logistics and just leaned more into multiverse antics. Wonder if that’s a pattern or something.

[@DylStur]

Absolutely phenomenal video as always. My partner recently announced to our friends that he wants to run a campaign in our homebrew setting based in a land based on ancient Greece and this land is one of the few lands untouched by a magical dark age so magical techniques and institutions of learning are in their golden age, and this video is really helpful for fleshing out what these institutions of learning would actually teach. You bringing up divination magic has already got my mind stirring up how that would affect the scientific method and my immediate conclusion is that there would likely be multiple scientific methods. At least two, maybe more. The first would be the scientific method that we use in the real world: form hypothesis, test hypothesis, observe result, adjust hypothesis if necessary, then replicate the experiment to confirm your conclusion. Divination magic would open up a new avenue of discovery: form hypothesis, posit hypothesis to a deity of knowledge, adjust hypothesis based on answer received, replicate your result to confirm your conclusion. And if we throw magical items that bestow esoteric knowledge like Elder Scrolls and Black Books from te Elder Scrolls series, for example, adventuring becomes a valid form of scientific and magical discovery.

[@helixxharpell]

I mentioned to Ed Greenwood once that I had a whole school of magic devoted to the study of perfect geometric forms.. Geometrists.. He said, "table magic" has been in existence since the early days. I was... encouraged. 😊

[@DuskyPredator]

In the setting I am writing up, the land is broken up into 4 factions, which make up the whole: Kingdom (nobles), United Guilds, Church and Arcane Academy. And each fits a niche for education. The Church sets itself for general well being with tenants of favoured gods, and acts as general schools for youth. The Guilds themselves have the colleges, which are for trades and bardic arts. The Kingdom themselves royal school that teach martial training for armies and law. The Academy itself is for magic and other complex scholastic endeavours. Their capital itself is a huge university where research and education is done, but magic like teleportation and messages makes them very connected to their branches for higher ups. The nature of magic gives them a lot of responsibility to stop misuse, and a lot of power.

[@DuskyPredator]

The way I like to do it is that although there is the medieval flare of fantasy, it won't really match real world examples. Magic can be used as advanced tech. A church with examples of real divinity has funds and incentive to act as general social net. Guilds fit a need between trades and arts for general goods, entertainment and advertising. And without real divine rule for nobles, it is all about peace keeping, and strong folk that knighthood could be attainable via gladiator prowess for the masses. Education and study isn't actually monopolised by even one faction, and there is even peace kept by sharing it with those of other factions. The Academy is also not just wizardry as magic study, but the effect of magic on a body that makes a sorcerer. And also the interplaner powers that gives warlocks abilities. There may be some clerics, but often study of the divine is more philosophy than science, making it easier to study fey and demons via scientific method than it is for gods and angels.

[@seraphwithatank6535]

This was very thought provoking, 10/10 content

[@hat8694]

Dude you are so underrated... Hope more people find your channel!

[@KraNisOG]

Lawyers came to exist not to defend people from other people, or the government, but to guide and assist people in making contracts with demons, being seen as an anti-demon occupation isntead of a demonic one (or at least morally questionable) like it is irl would be an interesting idea.

[@josephbenjamin6426]

OOOOOH! Now you’re cooking with GAS…or mana, in this case! I ❤ discussions on how to use spells for the advancement of knowledge-especially in the sciences and maths. I have ALWAYS pondered the confluence of technology and the arcane and how one would either interfere with, or compliment, the other. Are they compatible? Or in opposition? But what would happen when two different societies clash-one with magic, the other technological-and how would they try to constantly “one-up” each other?

[@dannybryant-rh6sw]

and one of the oldest universities in the world is in India. It's named Nalanda it lasted 427 to 1197. And it taught Buddhism, contemporary texts and philosophies, logic, grammar, science, and medicine

[@KaiHenningsen]

I feel you missed another likely origin path for a university. Assume that (at least in one region) early magic users create a guild system, like so many other professions. In the next step, they come up with the idea of a school to teach the next generation. And then, after some prominent inventer-of-new-magic, they decide that it would be a good idea to site a research center at that same school (mainly as it already has a number of the resources needed), and then it grows from there. Also, once that exists, *then* you can expect monarchs in other places to pay for their own version, securing a local supply of good mages to avoid being left out in the cold in the next war, or losing out on the next economic boom based on a new magical invention.

[@koomori]

*saves this video to rewatch whenever they work on their setting with two magic universities* Well. Sorta. One is a traditional Wizardly university, and exceptionally stuffy. The other is a necromantic commune that has a university model.

[@awkwardllama0509]

The cult of Euclid taught geometry and the cultures of the Mediterranean, Japanese, and Chinese were polythiestic and famous for their teachings

[@twilightgardenspresentatio6384]

The answer to every question is “professor x”

[@SusCalvin]

You see Iron Man fly overhead in his new frickin fusion-powered suit or the Fantastic Four cruise above in some flying car but for some reason most of you still drive around in the same 80's station wagons.

[@danielsanders7538]

I feel particularly and especially personally attacked as a DnD nerd and PhD student

[@Battleguild]

It really depends on the setting that your Academy/University takes place. Is your setting No/Light/High Magic? A No Magic setting University would cover Economics, Military, Politics, Religions, etc. It's a consolidation of goodstuffs that's limited to wealthy merchants and nobles. A Light Magic setting University would have a bit more flexibility entry, while also covering the above subjects in addition to Magic Application, Practice, and Theory. These Universities will likely have a higher militaristic or theologic interest in their formation. A High Magic setting University would have all the subjects above and a deeper influence by the previously mentioned groups. While entry would be more lax due to the abundance of magic, but there would also be higher scrutiny on controlling those who perform spellcraft exceptionally well. Students unable to afford the costs but want to attend may be required to serve their nation through the use of Contracts or Oaths. Another factor that can change it up is based on how your magic users aquire their spellcraft. Is it faith-based like a Cleric, born into power like a Sorcerer, empowered by a pact like a Warlock, or earned through meticulous study like the Wizard? Or a combination of all the above? All the studies can't solely be academic in nature only, as practical exercisrs would be necessary as well.

[@silverjohn6037]

One thing you didn't mention about universities in general are the negative effects they produce. When knowledge is power it doesn't mean that knowledgeable people are brought into positions of power, it means that politicians move into controlling what is and is not knowledge. Even when outright inquisitions aren't involved stigmatizing anyone who doesn't follow the common knowledge that the academics are experts in is routine. There's also the effect of bringing together a bunch of impressionable young people who are away from home for the first time. They know more than they did a few years before but still haven't realized how much more they still have to learn. They can be vulnerable to being flattered and manipulated by sociopathic personalities who exploit them for their own purposes. I understand there are a number of current year American universities that have had to set a flat policy of refusing to hire their own students for teaching positions after a number of professors were subjected to whisper (and sometimes scream) campaigns to destroy their reputation and force their resignation so that there were openings for grad students to move in to. Campaigns that those grad students had "nothing" to do with of course. There's also the political volatility within the country in general as student revolts were a common event down through history. Sometimes these were legitimate sparks of a general social movement but, more often, it was a bunch of kids who'd been flattered by institutions and faculties (to ensure their continued attendance and the resulting tuition fees) getting swollen heads. Rather than serve their "twenty years of boredom trying to change the system from within" they want to have control immediately even when it means replacing people who not only have the same (and in many cases superior) levels of education but the additional value of decades of experience beyond the mere theory taught in schools. These revolts rarely have the moral justification or popular support that their participants seem to believe and it rarely ends well for the country in general or the students themselves. To often they degenerate into terror campaigns when the hot heads refuse to cool down.

[@trikepilot101]

I was sure you were going to mention dragons as possible founders of universities. I guess now I have. : )

[@wirbuss4849]

Thats great and thought provocing esay. Good work. About what I will want to hear more about is your thoughts about what kind of story, conflicts and things to do the students can have on this kind of university. Or ideas for activity and quests.

[@amaliapursell]

It looks like other people got here first to bring up Greece and China But I would love to see a video where you get into pre-medieval places of learning And of course, the word academia is from the Greek in reference to the so called "golden age of Athens" And of course, there is no reason a fantasy setting couldn't follow the Chinese model of well off people paying for their children to take classes to pas the Confucian exam or the fantasy equivalent. Because the societal benefits of being a bureaucrat were so extreme.

[@helixxharpell]

Why not study the ancient Hindu-Indian universities? In my opinion, a great resource for this topic. Actually one of the lore subjects that's being developed for Khor.

[@lemongambit]

Hindus and Buddhists, overhearing this, "Am I a joke to you?". But on a more serious note, you're defining university in a specifically Western European and Christian context derived from a romantic view of Platonic Academies and Greek institutions, then using that definition to exclude other religions and cultures who had their own versions of universities, academies, and other institutions of higher learning even the very ones that the modern understanding of a university was derived from. Even by the limitation of teaching medicine, law, and military sciences, Taxila was a functioning university for half a millennium before Christ, publishing famous treatises on economic theory while the University of Constantinople was focused on the authority of the church, and at least a hundred years before Plato was lecturing on philosophy and metaphysics. Most of what you're discussing regarding the study of cosmic structure and focus of logic, metaphysics still stands and the video is great, but I hope you'll come back to this topic and explore institutions of higher learning outside the very limited definition of a Christian monotheistic and Euro-centric origin.

[@ideamaster11]

I love most of you videos, but this has to be one of your best on realistic world building!

[@robertstuckey6407]

Why would anyone become a lich when you could become a tenured magic professor, cure all disease with greater restoeation, and have your grad students do all the dangerous work of harnessing demons and such?

[@SusCalvin]

In Carcosa, you either know the spell to call the gods and barter for their services with sacrifice, or you are a potential sacrifice yourself. There is very little in between. All magic requires very specific human sacrifice. Everyone is someone else's potential ideal sacrifice. No human civilization is able to function on the entire planet.

[@MacLord]

Library of Alexandria was Universitiesk.

[@IcePhoenixMusician]

To be honest, I feel like in regards to polytheistic universities, it wouldn’t be that different than a secular university. I am fairly certain that you are missing the fact that polytheism is very aligned with secular designs. A polytheistic university would seek to allow any of the faiths and worldviews, or lack thereof (except perhaps atheism, which doesn’t make sense under many fantasy settings), similar to secular institutions.

[@Grungeon_Master]

I think you may be conflating polytheism with pluralism. Polytheistic beliefs work within a system of faith that is arguably more flexible than most, but still have fundamental truths about the nature, number, and power of the divine. I've done videos on fantasy atheism and it's lack of coherence in a fantasy polytheistic system before.

[@IcePhoenixMusician]

@@Grungeon_Master Polytheistic beliefs are generally pluralistic in nature, that being said, that isn’t necessarily the case, and there was some minor conflation. (I have a partner who is an omnitheist, who specifically practices Hellenism)

[@MauroDraco]

Excellent approach, Tom! This is so impactful for worldbuilding as a whole!

[@FlorescentInk]

Thank you for making these! Every one of your videos always gives me a perspective that I hadn't considered yet, and it's so enriching and inspiring.

[@solalabell9674]

I don’t know why but your videos are asking the same questions I’ve been thinking through for a couple days every time

[@zhcultivator]

Also please consider making a video about Fantasy Human ethnicities (ethnic groups) and fantasy Human* ethnoreligious groups too.

[@KoljaWolfi]

math...🤯 genious. and i honestly didnt think about it that way yet

[@Octarinewolf]

The Chinese Imperial Academy (Taixue/Guozijian)'s theology appears to have been polytheistic. Even if it did have the usual Confuician bias against Daiji.

[@anvos658]

I think you forget the alchemy conundrum that means theology need not be the root of academia, since when potions and other derived products can have such near miraculous effects, studying and cataloging it would become a chief subject of interest, along with training enough people that the works of alchemists can be produced in greater number and cheaper. Further nothing precludes a polytheistic religion from having a shared core, where thus you could train somebody as a general priest/cleric, before they devote themselves to a specific god. Plus this all depends how niche or focused the polytheistic religion is, since a structured polytheism based around there being a core deity for each core elemental magic will be a lot more coherent than polytheism with arbitrary divine domains. ........... Further Commune doesn't mean a deity is just going to hand you the cheat sheet to the universe, since your cosmology is ridiculously convoluted if a God of Knowledge doesn't also value the process of learning. Plus if you answer everybody's questions without requiring significant work you never get left alone.

[@aidragon4851]

very good video that helped very much with my world building. You deserve more recognition than you currently get and thankyou for the video.

[@Zamun]

Thanks for the breakdown. This is a much more interesting way to think about how these institutions would operate.

[@SusCalvin]

In the apocalyptic world of Mutant, the people in power value the past. The aristocratic lines of today can trace their origins (and legitimacy) back to human settlers from the dying enclave-bunkers. The emperor's family can trace its origin from the administrative-technical caste of ELYSIUM IV who emerged and became a central power in a little river region. The past is also a practical power, the states know just how valuable batteries, rifles, power generators and computers from the bunkers can be. History and archeology are primate interests of the state. Instead of an unhealthy dependence on wandering ruffians and looters, state institutions and army units explore these places and chart the frontiers outside the small, growing kernels of civilization. Exactly who fills out these ranks depends on the state, but it's usually their local elite with enough means and leisure time. The aristocracy, trade consortiums, the officer class. Who could organize often determined who would rise to power in a region, and often this meant the humans of the hierarchal enclaves. The work is a lot like that of an age of exploration trailblazer. Charting the geography of the land, some techno-archeology to appraise old remains, the linguistic and social wit to communicate with the locals and figure out how easy they are to assimilate into the empire or make clients, natural philosophy about the natural world and the weird threats it holds like parasites, nanoswarms and other nonsense.

[@ryanstewart2289]

Thanks for giving me more ideas to drive my GM crazy with.

[@jonasholzer4422]

In my homebrew world, the first practitioners of magic and medicine were the druids. who have a secret pantheon of nature gods that are based on the modern biological groups of organisms (Animals, bacteria, fungi, plants...) and geographic categories such as Rivers, mountains, plains... They diferentiate between gods of living matter and dead matter. A big deal god in their cosmology ist their god of death who basically is responsible for the cycling of matter between organisns. They really dont care about souls, just about where their matter goes after death. They consider it immortality to die, be consumed by the natural world and become part of another living thing. What follows from this logic is that having your body preserved as in mummification, prevented from being dissolved into nature or even undead are considered some of the worst faiths possible. (ups this coment derailed and became a place for my spontaneous world building)

[@animationlover219]

Something to add onto the idea of rich families sending their children to study magic. The extraordinary mind needed for adequate study of arcane magic that is implied in Dungeons and Dragons lore could be a limiter for this practice, but there is a way of balancing this that I have really wanted to be featured on this channel. Headbands of Intellect raise an attuned user’s Intelligence score to 19. If 20 is the limit of mortal capacity, then while the headband may not put a rich kid on the level of Aristotle or Leonardo, it would at least likely make them prime Mensa material, and more than adequate as wizards. Crucially, an uncommon magical item like a Headband of Intellect has a recommended price of 101 to 500 gp, compared to a warhorse at 400 gp. As long as the supply is sufficient, any aristocratic family will be getting one for their chosen future wizard. And the supply will be enough, because it only takes a third-level wizard to craft one, and it will only take them 500gp and 20 days to do it. I would simply love for the Grungeon Master to do an episode on Headbands of Intellect, Gauntlets of Ogre Power, and Amulets of Health. Any can have far-reaching effects for the society they are in, but Headbands of Intellect most of all, because they can contribute to a person’s capability to craft additional headbands.

[@Marcus-ki1en]

The University would be a great resource for knowledge for the players (eg: the Sage). As well, they make a great source for plot hooks (go get me a ..., go find X who was searching for Y). For subjects how about Magic, Alchemy/Chemistry, Astrology/Astronomy, Biology/Zoology, History/Lore, as well as Medicine, Law, and Religion. There is also the Guild systems (the Trade schools of their time).

[@GuardianSage]

While I haven't read all the comments, a thought occurred to me as to how a university might come about in a fantasy setting. If a god of truth exists, or at least an organization as suggested in your "zone of truth" video, then you could have seekers of truth. This could eventually lead to a union between truth, healing/medicine, nature, and magic to form a place of higher education. Such a place could even be used in a fantasy ttrpg as a way for players to advance in levels, especially those between levels 5-15. And with truth being a foundational pillar of the university, then the university would be a place to go to sort fact from fiction and to present newly discovered truths which could be tested and discussed.

[@namelessdude207]

What about: "Basic Orthodox Magic Education" at home and elementary school "Intermediate Orthodox Magic Education" at middle school "Advanced Intermediate Orthodox Magic" and the requirement for at least one field specialization of Unorthodox, Foreign, Ritual, Alchemy, Potioneering or Ancient Magic, because it can grant more perspective and has useful arts or better effects for certain type of spell. This would prevent the orthodoxy from going stale by overly limited and narrowed education. And the university for "Advanced (Military-grade) Magic Education" and even greater specialization in the chosen field of Magic. Followed by a "Master-Disciple Relationship" with famous Mages to learn their secret arts and techniques. (Because certain spells & techniques are basically "trade-marked" or have a "copyright" through either laws or Restriction Magic (Curses)

[@TheStartrek99]

One point of interest that makes especially dnd style setting more likely to develop stable universities sooner would be the presence of gods wth the Knowledge domain. So long as the knowledge god is not a god of hidden knowledge, then spreading knowledge would be an act of worship to said god, which would result in that god's temple(s) being early universities.

[@sunsetsbane5758]

your talking at normal speed when i put playback to 2x

[@joelkreissman6342]

I would suggest looking into Plato and his Akademia.

[@phookaziz3]

Interesting notion of medieval education in various fantasy settings; though this was more a quick jaunt down a single rabbit hole of world building. This could be a whole series of videos with some more theoretical tracts like this one and others more practical for narrative, character, or encounter development. One area that might make an interesting follow up are the micro historical forces that come into play within the university institution. Dogmatic adherence to the status quo, intra or inter disciplinary rivalry, elitism vs education for public good, ivory tower vs anti-intellectualism, free and open research doctrines vs sponsored research, and of course the publish or die phenomenon just to name a few. Newtonian physics for a time was thought to have solved all the deep mysteries of its field until Einstein and the quantum revolution. Various theologies oppose research that contradicts their cannon and teachings. If the university bookstore doesn’t need a printing press because of a magical but automated scriptorium, what does the price of an education look like. Are universities island candles in the dark, or inter connected webs of competing scholars pushing the bounds of knowledge? Do the best historians and anatomists come from universities in the lands ruled by undead like vampires (again what is the price of tuition in such a place). What forces in the setting oppose the creation of such institutions? Grand above ground castles are useless in the face of monopolized flying fire breathing dragons. Does a cult of a deity of knowledge oppose institutional learning because it changes the world too fast, or stumbles into secrets the world should not know? And then of course the Jurassic Park question “your researchers stood on the shoulders of giants, so eager to prove they could, that nobody stopped to ask whether they should!”

[@jonathanwells223]

to answer your question on the religious aspect of universities, going back to 3.5 the Knowledge(religion) skill was defined as having expertise in the following knowledge categories: gods and goddesses, mythic history, ecclesiastic tradition, holy symbols and the undead. Being that it is a skill check roll, you may or may not have had the information in your particularly university. Remember that not every deity worshiped in the world would be known to a specific university, in fact it's likely that any university funded by a religion would have its own brand of dogmatically biased religious education. But then again in classic D&D, only the church of Boccob would find it worthwhile to fund one of those so it would be the view of religion from a god that is literally called "The Uncaring" so chances are that the records would be as complete as the church would be able to get it with a more or less unbiased take. It's entirely up to you!

[@cirrus2472]

One interesting wrinkle is that a university that is an outgrowth of a church would have access to a lot of divine magic which easily cures most diseases and injuries. I could see such a university actually having a major blind spot around medicine and anatomy. There’s not much incentive to study how disease works when a level 2 spell can just cure all diseases. Medicine then might be more of a rural or peasant tradition, practiced by those who have to make do without the church’s magic.

[@anathema1828]

Nice work on the video!

[@s-o-tariknomad6970]

9:10 this sounds a lot like a faction in Runequest: Glorantha

[@thiagoalencar3937]

I thought about the binary search thing! I am so proud

[@markstevenson2492]

Amazing video but you have missed two major real world cultural examples that could lead to the formation of universities. 1) The ancient Greek academy: polytheists at the start and even atheistic later on (Hypatia in Alexadria) 2) Court based schools of learning in acinet China. King's during the waring states funded groups or schools of philosophy (political, philosophical, military, economic, even Chinese Chess groups) to attract the best talent into these courts, this led to the 1000 schools of philosophy period and a wealth of libraries and philosophical groups aligned to different Kings. Easy to evolve these into entirely atheistic or philosophically aligned universities.

[@Gordoniron]

Love this format.

[@theprinceofawesomeness]

this is the reason why i LOVE Divination and those i play with hates it

[@KoljaWolfi]

12:05 witcher comes to mind.

[@macinnes800ad]

Oh yea, before I sign that contract with Mammon I gotta sign off for my lawyer to hammer things out 😂 love this

[@bvzv]

Just copy guild structure. Done. Time for counter-strike.

[@steeldrago73]

A significant number of wizards would be former clerics or people tied to a church and able to study the things clerics do and say to cast spells. Perhaps they were not granted magic and felt betrayed by their God.

[@Samavanzi]

I love magic school, but I dislike it when magic is an inborn gift, but then you need to answer why doesnt everyone go to magic school.

[@SusCalvin]

In Call of Cthulhu, it takes the better part of a year to learn a single spell. All humans can be taught magic. All you need is to spend several years of your life learning a dead language, then locate the right texts and spend that time. A magic grimoire is not necessarily an ancient thing, once a human knows a spell they can commit it to paper in translation as well. A grimoire can be as little as a printed pamphlet in low german with +1% Cthulhu Mythos and a single Contact Ghoul spell. In Esoteric Enterprises, there are no magic schools because the cops bust any fool who tries to. Occultist gangs are like underground book clubs who pool resources and allies to get books. Learning a spell is a risky skill roll where failiure means setting yourself on fire, making the book bleed or uncontrollably casting the spell etc. The cops treat fools with magic books the same way they treat fools who pop off shots with an AR-10 at the KFC. The SWAT team shows up and everyone has a bad day.

[@yotamdelayahu93]

Here's the thing though they would need to have a good grasp of statistics and calculus Statistics only starting in the 1600s and modern statistics in 1930's and calculus being created by Newton in the 1700's I don't think wizards would be able to become that kind of easy answers machines you talked about (unless of course it's a more modern sort of setting) Now of course magic could accelerate those discoveries but there's still about a 500 year gap there

[@Luredreier]

6:51 Yeah, that's just not true... Look up Nalanda mahavihara...

[@moshecallen]

The question of the origin of universities as posed in the video ignores the common role of centralization in historical European pre-Christian polytheisms. The Greeks has the Pantheon and the Romans a Pontifex Maximus for a reason. They supervised all cults.

[@Grungeon_Master]

Fair points

[@Doctoranthetardis]

My fantasy is free school

[@xianxiaemperor1438]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/n3quZ6xpqquhjqc

[@abrahamcorona420]

I just know nerds in d and d worlds are playing humans and offices

[@gene8447]

Aaand you lost me with the weatern chauvenism a literal minute in.

[@daemonxblaze]

This was closer to an asmr than anything else. I could barely hear a word said.