The Fight To Stop Genital Surgeries on Intersex Infants

[@VICENews]

“The surgeries can still happen, but the person can grow up and make a decision and have autonomy over their body. And that's huge. It's a human right.” WATCH NEXT: This 12-Year-Old Girl Is Going To Leave Her Town Because She's Transgender - kzbin.info/www/bejne/qnjGoKirYpmJes0

[@tinyfreckle]

The irony is strong with this one

[@jerryboatright6610]

A name is what you poke at.?

[@Cicada-Screams]

I'm surprised there aren't more comments here pretending that minors get srs.

[@hollynonya6991]

Their are infants According to Roe vs Wade Infants aren't human persons thus have no rights

[@pidgepagonis]

Thank you Vice News and Daniel Ming for including me, my mom, and my org organization intersex justice protect in this eye opening video about the worldwide fight for intersex justice and autonomy over our bodies. This video is really well done, and I love that you featured urologists (the types of doctors that perform unnecessary and harmful genital surgeries on us intersex kids for no other reason other than to make us “look normal”) who are both for & against the surgeries. The surgeon who was for the surgeries was like a politician, never giving a straight answer and clearly just reciting the talking points of the Society of Pediatric Urologists (SPU), and she gets more and more visibly uncomfortable and unable to answer the questions the more you ask her the tough questions. It was really quite something to see her squirm. And it was so refreshing to see another urologist, one with a heart, who so beautifully captured what being a doctor is all about - first do not harm. I am super proud of this video, and super in love with my intersex community. We will win. No matter how long it takes. People reading this please follow my organization IJP (Instagram @intersexjusticeproject) and interAct (@interact_adv) to stay up to date on this struggle. #EndIntersexSurgery because it should be up to the intersex patient to decide what happens to the most sensitive parts of their bodies, not our parents and doctors. 🟡✊🏽🟣 also, you can subscribe to me KZbin 💜

[@BS-yt6en]

I'm happy to see awareness getting raised. It horrifies me that a doctor can say "oh that clitoris is too big, let's make it smaller" and our culture and society allows that to happen. Same as the travesty of baby boys losing their foreskins to be mutilated "just like daddy"....Intact America is against ALL nonconsensual genital modifications of children!!!!

[@NoName-vq6cg]

I agree. Stop genital mutilation.

[@avag8242]

Pidgeon thank you for sharing your story!

[@Dwayne-Mobile1]

Thanks for being brave enough to tell your story to educate people. There should be zero unnecessary surgery on anyone under 18. I never circumcised my oldest biological son. He is now a very happy 24 year old man. He has never had a problem or judgments about it.

[@bofuthereturn]

i love you Lil Pump. Gucci Gang is my all time favorite song

[@kimberlywilson7986]

Crazy how “should we do medically unnecessary surgeries on children too young to understand and consent” is controversial

[@kimberlywilson7986]

@@ReclaimerX Yeah I mean I also don't agree with circumcision. I also think intersex surgeries have the potential to negatively affect someone a lot more than circumcision.

[@Dujjajiscoming4u]

Kimberly Wilson you admit that genital cutting is wrong even for boys but you gotta throw in that extra little jab at boys like “hey I know you didn’t consent but deal with it”

[@kimberlywilson7986]

Forefront I mean I’m not going to say that removal of foreskin is comparable to a forced gender reassignment. But I also agree they’re both bad so...? We’re on the same page here?

[@zacharyburdette4261]

@@kimberlywilson7986 it's not a gender reassignment. It's a procedure done on a infants genitals that have aspects of both genders, in an effort to make them look and feel more normal. Imagine growing up as a child with the genitals of both genders. The procedure had good intentions and is only trying to help the person. Also, if you asked everyone who was circumcised, the vast majority of them have positive outcomes from the surgery.

[@zacharyburdette4261]

@Flora Fauna no... It's not. I bet you're against vaccines too. Wack

[@pinakinkale]

I agree with this. Let them decide when they are old enough, meaning 18.

[@sweetsourorange]

@@chanelkim8804If you’re talking about puberty as in hormones, medications like Gnrh agonists works as well

[@AcidEfflux]

Here's an idea: Maybe we should stop genital surgeries on infants altogether.

[@brittanybonnie1478]

agreed...in puberty they will tell you what they want and feel...till hormones kick in there really isnt a way to know how they feel...i think the parents just want their babies to have normal lives..and the doctors tell them the surgery will help but it really is just fixing the outside

[@CoupleDrinks]

I thanked my parents later in life for circumcising me. Wouldn't want it any other way and I will do it for my son as well.

[@AcidEfflux]

Some "circumcised" women say the same thing. Doesn't make it valid. You don't know what you're missing.

[@CoupleDrinks]

@dendo111 no thanks don't want to have an anteater

[@cabbage4254]

Yes I agree. Let us stop this barbaric mutilation, of any child.

[@Overquoted]

I think when you're starting to do surgeries on children on the basis of appearance, then you've gone a little wrong.

[@100Mmore]

It was the doctor's recommendation, parent's just didn't know.

[@raffaerer]

depending on the DSD, early intervention could make a big difference in the child's eventual sex life but there's no way to tell for sure; doctors are just trying to help parents make the most informed decisions they can with the info they have. it's a mistake to paint doctors as the enemy boogey men

[@BS-yt6en]

Baby boys deserve their whole bodies too!!!!

[@mikej9325]

This is misleading. They make a decision based on the chromosomes they have. Why isn’t the other side shown? It didn’t mention the mental health effects of someone growing up and having both genitals. I know people who had both and killed themselves from the bullying they got. This documentary is trash

[@skyblanket4000]

@@mikej9325 “based on their chromosomes” no they don’t lmao, they take a lot of things into consideration. a child could be very feminine looking but have xy chromosomes, should this child be tested and surgically modified? in the end, there are always going to be people who don’t like their circumstances. but stopping involuntary infant surgeries gives the individuals two options: keep their body as it is, or get the surgery. the alternative is choosing the surgery on their behalf and forcing them to stick with it, not being able to go back to their old bodies. sounds a heck of a lot like the john money experiment if you ask me. it’s safer to allow the child to have more options to decide in the future rather than force a decision as big as this on them without them having any say.

[@andrewchacon4443]

Am I the only one who is kind of freaking out about someone naming their kid “Pigeon”

[@EwYoureCringe]

It is common for trans and non binary people to change their name if it is traditionally feminine. So I would bet it’s probably not their birth name...

[@avag8242]

Roma Patterson yeah at first I was like wow how convenient they already had a gender neutral name. And then I was like wait a second...

[@elisabetirazu4964]

Paloma is actually a name in spanish Euskera and maybe other languages. Maybe they Just translated it?

[@micca143]

Ava G g

[@euphony93]

Elisabet Irazu yeah that’s a good point because Paloma is traditionally a feminine name

[@MarieInsanityy]

They can get surgery when they’re an adult so if this happens to my child, I’m going to WAIT 1000%.

[@ps3862]

Definitely, let them make their own choices when they get old enough. It only make sense to get surgery if it done to save them from some kind of disease.

[@mgray999]

It seems like the surgery was done for the parent to accept the child rather than for the child to accept themselves. This is on the same level as FGM.

[@pidgepagonis]

M Gray it is... it’s called intersex genital mutilation and in the same boat as conversion therapy.

[@NoName-vq6cg]

Same level as male genital mutilation as well

[@mgray999]

@@pidgepagonis I feel like this is worse than conversion therapy.

[@hindsightpov4218]

ALL surgeries that alters genitals against the person’s will is Pure Evil. This includes surgeries forced on individuals who are intersex, individuals who are male, individuals who are female, and individuals who are other+. Only the individual can determine how that person wants his/her/their genitals to be. Absolutely NO ONE can determine how another person’s genitals can be. Not that person’s parents. Not anyone in the medical field who thinks he/she/they know better. NO ONE. ONLY the individual can determine how the individual’s genitals will be.

[@noelsmaison685]

Yes i agree with you

[@jasonbrittain9258]

Off-topic but I wish It was up to me to choose if I wanted circumcised or not

[@SlackerU]

I don't think you're off topic. Routinely cutting off 12-15 square inches of skin from infant males is mutilation that should be classified as a sex crime.

[@asdfghjkl-oo7lv]

@@SlackerU I'm with you. I would not do that to my son. God made you like that then don't change it 👍 Husband is not circumcised and he wants the same for his son.

[@yetanotherjohn]

I totally agree, but I know a guy whose foreskin was partially ripped off during sex. I am glad I never have to think about what he went through.

[@tigsmaw]

Ever met a man that had to have an adult circumcision I’ve known A couple all wish they had had it done when they were infants. Personally I’m quite happy with my circumcision. To each their own

[@xvegancommunistx1848]

Jewish mutilation

[@framed166]

I'm curious to what percentage intersex children who have gone through surgery and had a positive outcome would be when compared to those who had a negative outcome?

[@helioszxc]

@IronicallyVague so true.i feel so sad for these kids :( parents deserve death if they ever do that to their kids

[@speedracer9132]

Sick people doing this to children

[@EMG_Iman]

JahJah Yeah you all in the comments love talking crazy huh?

[@mh508]

They all end up commiting suicide. This is a setup to confuse youths and make them weak and easy to control. Part of the agenda.

[@WiscoMTB37]

I dont know but .05% of the population have a weiner and pusser so I have to say this isnt on the top of my priority list

[@BuzziMuzzi]

I’ve actually been involved with an intersex community ages ago, I had no idea about it before that, but these people born with both genetelia exist. Almost all of them were traumatized by the decision their parents had made, to be the one gender. They all felt like... they were just neither. Not fully one, neither the other one. But they felt foreign in the body that was mutilated by birth. And some of them felt very pressured by their parents to conform to their expectations of the chosen gender.

[@zak27986]

As a biological male myself, this is absolutely fascinating but strange in the same time. At the end of the day whether you are born female, or male, or intersex I am more than happy to accept you as my fellow human being. As human beings we should all follow the three principles of life compassion, empathy, and love to have a more perfect union.

[@jacobstaten2366]

Why is this even a debate?

[@psivast8007]

I think it illuminates the larger issue with society and the medical field in general. If you could look at a time lapse from when medicine started and where it is today, you would be forced to connect the dots revealing who's "really" telling the truth and why.

[@anarchy6751]

Because liberalism

[@brittanybonnie1478]

@@psivast8007 truthbis most of these doctors are just guessing

[@joe972]

Rusty Nail no authoritarian liberalism i am a liberitarian liberal and I do not claim “that”

[@johnbw2597]

@@anarchy6751 Because of conservative coverups. They want a deceptive world where unconditional natural info is swept under the rug and never discovered by masses.

[@samueljackson315]

It’s genital mutilation that is rarely medically necessary, usually very damaging and largely for aesthetic purposes to make the parents more comfortable similar to male and female circumcision. Surgeries like this should not be given to an infant that cannot consent.

[@mdel07304]

Of course a pediatric urologist association would support it can you imagine how much they make from these patients? Intersex births are not as rare as we think

[@waladoopa2667]

only in America they make money get ur head outside of America

[@troyr1210]

Plus they can sell foreskins and baby flesh for research so it makes them even richer

[@PuJolsLol]

Soo... I once had a clitoris?

[@gregorymalchuk272]

@@troyr1210 Yep, the mutilate and profit off of genitally mutilated men and boys.

[@villiamkarl-gustavlundberg5422]

Megan markle, the crown Princess of Sweden & her "sister" and George Bush's daughters all have male proportions. These rich people are demonically possessed both in the sense that they live in the darkness (away from Jesus Christ) and in the sense that they're the product of ritual abuse. Why is there an opiate epidemic? What are our nation states doing in Afghanistan? Stealing metals and hustling poppy sap. Psycos. Psycos all of them.

[@shellybee9322]

I would be so mad if I went a lifetime and no one told me.

[@autumngalix4616]

I have an older sister who was born intersex. I don't want to say too much about what she goes through, but from what she's told me combined with the new information that intersex children don't need surgery(most of the time) to survive, I am with this. This is bullshit. If the child doesn't need emergency surgery for their parts, they don't need surgery and should be left with that decision for themselves. Allowing children to have control over their bodies should not be a controversial topic.

[@delayniethompson2820]

Wait until you are fully developed, then the patient should decide then. We are looking for perfect and forget what is best. Do not get the surgeries done, there are people who will love you no matter what.

[@Dujjajiscoming4u]

I agree. This same logic should be implemented with boys. Everyone deserves the rights to the genitals they are born with. End all child genital cutting. Routine infant male circumcisi0n.

[@michaelmccarthy4615]

The main point of the video is... Should government intervene legally in the rights of parents. Their 1st parenting decision is a critical one...

[@jacobstaten2366]

The problem with that idea is that you'll have completing hormones effecting the body. You'll either end up with a butch girl or an effete male.

[@DMRJ53]

Delaynie Thompson I agree but in the meantime , do they raise them as a male or female ? You have no way of knowing what the child will feel.

[@delayniethompson2820]

@@DMRJ53 That is the problem with society you should not program your child to be either "MALE" or "FEMALE". We should not have boundaries when it comes to sex.

[@samhiatt]

Pidgeon, thank you for sharing your story. Reading the comments here, it is clear that society has a long way to go in comprehending non-binary gender. I think it is important for people to hear about experiences like yours in order to challenge their binary ways of thinking, which can be very deeply engrained. I profoundly admire people like you who have the courage to speak out. BTW, the slogan "Change your hearts, not our parts!" really resonated with me. My heart has been changed by people like you who have had the courage to unabashedly be themselves even when others don't understand.

[@iimmannii]

💗💗💗💗

[@Dave102693]

And trans people are criticized for consenting to alternating their own genitals in the same light.

[@danielthecake8617]

genital surgeries are still very reasonable. Say you are born with somewhat functional male genitals and fully functioning female genitals. By leaving both in you could ruin both sets because of the sheer amount of hormones that having 2x normal would cause

[@elsakristina2689]

I don't plan on having kids but if I did and the kid was intersex I'd just give them a unisex name and let them choose when they're older what gender they want to be or if they want to remain non-binary

[@ALGORITHMTICKLER]

elsa1942 well hopefully you are not having kids and born in 1942

[@elsakristina2689]

@@ALGORITHMTICKLER It's just a username

[@survivalistboards]

7:00 it is obvious she has her script memorized. When asked directly about the child not consenting she skips around the question.

[@90MysteriumFascinans]

RuralPrepper sadly that’s the downside of the way modern medicine is practiced. Rote memorization, not an appreciation of nuance, the psycho-spiritual connection, etc. But I think we’re getting there, eventually. Hopefully. In the meantime, a doctor is not the ultimate authority. Just an expert in a particular dimension of specific topics.

[@AirQuotes848]

Let them decide when legal age.

[@MiVidaBellisima]

This was very enlightening. I don’t even agree with newborn circumcision. I don’t understand what’s so wrong with giving people the option to choose what happens “aesthetically” with their gonads when they are old enough to make the decisions for themselves. Ppl saying parents should choose for their baby are thinking ridiculously selfishly and not thinking of the damage caused if they choose the wrong sex for them or if the person is accepting of how God made them.

[@deadeyedblack2350]

Tell that to all the kids with nasty elephant cheese dicks. Don’t understand why circumcision is bad when it’s way more sanitary and the argument that it’ll cause more infection is bs

[@keepXonXrockin]

@@deadeyedblack2350 about 30% of the global make population is circumcised. The majority is uncircumcised and doing just fine.

[@hanagreg]

@@deadeyedblack2350 Do you imagine all European (or Asian) kids walking around with elephant cheese dicks? They just learn how to clean them, just like brushing teeth.

[@ifuckedadolphinonce5456]

@@hanagreg Even easier than brushing your teeth, really.

[@luckyluke5614]

This is about to become a war zone

[@jeffwalters8552]

I'm only here for this, couldn't really care about the video! You know it's going to be spicy by the ratio, let the games begin!

[@nerdsuper1514]

@@jeffwalters8552 ignorance is a bliss my friend.

[@jeffwalters8552]

@@nerdsuper1514 No, I need the salt in my life. The sad tears of the triggered feed my bad place and nothing else will do. I am a tourist here, pay me no mind.

[@505Vermont]

Jeff Walters cringe

[@martis4951]

Well it didn't happen lol

[@sugar-free-2centz]

This all goes for male circumcision too. So messed up that it's done. A real mutilation and crime on the parts of parents.

[@herahagstoz6934]

How about ending all cosmetic genital surgeries on those who cannot yet speak up for themselves or make informed consent.

[@BS-yt6en]

🙌🙌🙌PREACH!!!! 👍

[@jklax]

Male babies don't get to consent to genital mutilation via circumcision. We should talk about that too.

[@thelocotinocos9790]

It’s exactly the same thing & no one wants to talks bout it smh

[@Laughingcoyote1213]

Very true. It's a big question if your parents should have the right to make that decision or not. Unless it was medically necessary.

[@jklax]

@@WildBill496 Yeah where did you pull that statistic?

[@thelocotinocos9790]

Billy Sava unsanitary ? Lmao do you know how to clean yourself ??

[@WildBill496]

@@jklax that is common knowledge and you can also look it up for yourself. Roughly 8 out of 10 males in US are circumcised technically 81% and I pulled that from CDC

[@ValCronin]

Man, Pidgeon is really good at explaining things concisely.

[@ellie_5276]

The reality is you’re never going to have a policy that makes everyone happy. Some intersex people will be grateful that they received surgery and medical care to “normalise” the appearance of their genitals, enabling them to have a sense of body normality and more confidence in sexual relations. But others like Pidgeon will feel violated and unsatisfied with having had that surgery performed. The trouble is, when a baby is born there’s no way to ask them what they want, and no way to explain to them the situation. If surgery will give them better life outcomes especially from a health perspective then I think it should be performed.

[@AD-jq7ow]

But how do you chose or who are you to choose the sex?

[@ellie_5276]

A D I think medical professionals choose on the basis of which genitalia is more prominent / developed.

[@Taj_Rahine]

Ellie _ what if I decided that your life would be better if I performed genital surgery on you? Do I have the right to do that? Surely I do not, right? Just apply that same standard to all people, that’s the whole point. You can make your own genitalia decisions, this is clearly a basic human right, the right to our own bodies.

[@ellie_5276]

Bliss, a sensitive man I understand what you are saying but because this condition literally arises when a baby is first born, medical professionals are forced to confront it immediately especially when underdeveloped genitalia can have life-limiting impacts. I’m not advocating surgically changing an intersex baby’s genitalia for cosmetic reasons alone, but for medical reasons, it can be necessary. Eg) If a baby is born with a conjoined twin as a result of abnormal foetal development, do you just leave their bodies conjoined despite the likelihood of reduced life quality and life expectancy simply because the babies can’t consent to their separation, or do you as the parent and the medical professional make the joint decision to separate the children for the sake of their health on behalf of the babies who cannot decide for themselves?

[@beetle998]

This is why... the intersex patients want doctors and parents to WAIT until they actually can respond.

[@theserpentcharmer1313]

Definitely agree that any sort of surgery done for cosmetic purposes should wait until the child is old enough to consent. Including circumcision.

[@Sp1n1985]

Well that's no longer cash money and is illegal to have a reasonable perspective

[@angelgjr1999]

Donald Allen It’s fine to do it as an adult. It’s dangerous for babies to get circumcised. You can bleed out or die from infection. Not to mention, it can traumatize babies.

[@Sp1n1985]

@@angelgjr1999 nah no dude remembers their circumcisions.

[@angelgjr1999]

Marcus INfinity Just because you can’t remember it, doesn’t mean you weren’t affected by it. Repressed memories exist.

[@Sp1n1985]

@@angelgjr1999 they weren't repressed. They weren't important to remember.. Like birth.

[@mrmccannabis]

Bodily autonomy should also be granted to all males. Circumcision is a crime. All babies deserve to not be cut by doctors for no reason.

[@BS-yt6en]

AMEN!

[@yousif4785]

By that logic abortion is a crime, the baby isnt concenting to dying

[@mrmccannabis]

Abortion IS a crime

[@raventrunite6459]

Yousif Najeeb that’s not the same at all. regardless on your stance on abortion, circumcision is performed on a living, birthed baby, usually well after birth, while abortion is performed on clusters of cells, not a legally recognised human life

[@ddddaaaa7995]

If parents do surgery, they make their life easier for like 20 years, but then the grown kid suffer for 60 more. Doesn’t make sense. Person should always decide themself

[@allisonsmith8515]

Cosmetic surgery shouldn’t be preformed on babies

[@Cicada-Screams]

I'd imagine reducing the size of the clitoris could do some serious nerve damage. I'd rather have a large clitoris over a more average sized clitoris that I couldn't feel. That's just monstrous.

[@OlafPijl]

Whether someone thinks there are are only 2 genders or more doesn't really matter. It's someone's own decision what to identify as. Everybody else should respect that, and not force their beliefs on others.

[@NeverMetTheGuy]

I'm gonna play devil's advocate here, and ask what the move should be when people want to force people that believe in [whatever their beliefs are] to submit to another viewpoint? That may have been written poorly as the coffee hasn't kicked in yet, but hopefully it makes sense.

[@donovanpreston6614]

Ironic considering it's the latter belief (that there are more than two genders) that is actually being forced on everyone

[@alexmikhylov]

it's not about gender. gender and sex aren't the same thing. you are stupid for dragging gender argument into this

[@secondaccount142]

I identify as race fluid, every day I change my race.

[@donovanpreston6614]

@Dandy Chiggins Appeal to Authority is a logical fallacy

[@mcoates3649]

Bruh. Not doing surgery on newborns doesn't mean you can never have that surgery. It just means you get to choose. Maybe you choose when you're five, or fifteen, or fifty. But irreversible and medically unnecessary procedures that change such a fundamental part of who you are should be left up to the patient.

[@maryalicefike4704]

these surgeries have a single purpose: make children “normal” when there’s evidence there’s almost never a positive outcome from these surgeries

[@mariannerady1137]

Thank you for showing different points of view, helping your viewers to form an informed opinion.

[@tomithy6047]

So nonconsensual intersex infant genital surgery = bad, but pervasive infant mutilation through circumcision = meh ?

[@100Mmore]

Yeah that's weird

[@Sp1n1985]

Conservatives like Jewish circumcision and Islam says women are equal with circumcision. And here we are

[@angelgjr1999]

Tomithy feminists are regarded

[@daniellehoward4194]

both are bad. we all know this.

[@SlackerU]

Thanks for mentioning MGM. They steal our skin & the Tissue Act prevents any profits returning to our hands. The Fibroblast Growing Human Flesh Trade is slavery.

[@cognitivedissonancecamp6326]

Pigeon, you are well spoken, I’m hopeful for the future for anyone to have their rights respected. I’m appalled at the comments on this video and I try to remain patient with humans who show so much disdain and apathy and downright ignorance. The work you guys are doing as activists is actually overlapping the work many of us DON’T DO as circumcised men who want that horrible procedure given to men when they come of age, as a choice. All humans deserve to have their bodies intact, how is this not obvious to any empathetic loving-living being?

[@Dave102693]

Exactly

[@lefgt9534]

she looks like a custom character from fallout 4

[@Dee-ye2dk]

le fgt I’m dead it’s too early

[@stevestiers3369]

Lmaooo omg I soo high rn ma manz greg Fisher just sed he thought it was lol pump hahahah I'm dead

[@awsombuttfacemonkey]

More like saints row

[@WiscoMTB37]

@@stevestiers3369 😂 so true

[@jeffwalters8552]

Best thread yet

[@postpartum-thestruggle4378]

The dude's last name is Wiener...

[@quantumjourney1]

Linda McLaughlin Are you 12 lol?

[@postpartum-thestruggle4378]

@@quantumjourney1 you didn't notice that his last name is Wiener?

[@kei7540]

@@quantumjourney1 I mean.....

[@lawabiding9152]

I didn’t know the average vice viewer is 13

[@houngrysdigest1525]

So? That's a common last name.

[@yoshisarethebomb]

The same people complaining about trans surgery do nothing about intersex surgery. Intersex surgery is forced and has no benefits. Trans surgery is optional, the trans person's choice, and can have positive mental health effects. I hope the forced intersex surgery can stop.

[@sjenner76]

Dr. Beth Drzewiecki’s position is very troubling. Essentially, she asserts that while the medical profession will do its best to educate the parent, nonetheless, because the parent almost invariably has the best interests of the child at heart, and because prevailing social standards are a legitimate concern for a parent, a parent can elect the most drastic of elective surgeries for the child. And as a gloss, “we have data” supporting that conclusion. Under this construct, female genital mutilation is an equally valid option. If the medical profession can’t articulate a better argument and set of standards than this to govern what is extreme elective surgery for an individual without the capacity or power to choose, then ultimately it’s inviting the State Legislature to intervene in order to protect the rights of the individual-which will be the genesis of yet more problems as legislation is rarely subtle or able to take account of the totality of the circumstances.

[@pidgepagonis]

Simon Jenner 👏🏽👏🏽👏🏽👏🏽👏🏽👏🏽👏🏽👏🏽

[@joannelhansandroid]

Not everything is black, white and binary. I hope one day we'll stop as a people trying to confine others into these boxes, categories and just let humans be humans. Unless a condition is life threatening in a way that if untreated will result in that child's immediate death we should not be enforcing it on them. And to say that well, living as an intersex individual could be life threatening to them later is not a good enough excuse and we all need to learn to adapt and help people through their differences instead of forcing them to conform.

[@Tylerd838]

Yeah let’s live in La La Land, where I don’t agree that a chair should be called a chair I think a chair should be called a goal, you know and I don’t like the word steak how about instead we use the word tube, you know I don’t like being pushed into these boxes🤡

[@matthewtaylor4670]

*The comment section: Australia's wild fires...*

[@radcow]

Lol its the new tube now buddy

[@FluffyCarpenterBee]

Australian here. We don't call them wild fires, we call them bush fires. If you are going to meme a natural disaster that is ripping through my country please use the right terminology.

[@PrincessKLS]

So if Pidgeon is intersex and non-binary does that mean they are technically cisgender? At least by basic definition?

[@xwrtk]

They would intergender by definition. It’s like cisgender. It means that a person can’t fully identify with how they were born at born. Not cisgender due to genitalia.

[@acrookedtoes]

Her parents did the right thing in that time period. Imagine the progression did not come and we still were in the 80s and 90s. She would have been ruined and blamed her parents for not doing the surgery. Turn plot , if they didn't do it that person would have been a different person and probably hated themself for being different. It's a damned if you do and damned if you don't mind of situation.

[@Wyattprice7]

a doctor did it without my biological parents consent and never told adopted till i found out in teens

[@acrookedtoes]

@@Wyattprice7 you started off strong there and either starting falling asleep or the drugs kicked in because that last part , who knows what the hell that means.

[@jannamwatson]

It's such a small part of the body that's not seen by that many other people throughout the course of our lives. I can't imagine looking at a beautiful newborn, and clamoring on as a parent that I don't like how my child's genitals look, so bring out the knives and make it look 'normal' so that I don't feel uncomfortable changing these diapers for the next two years... It would be so much easier, safer and kinder to change the rigid definition of what genitals are supposed to look like. So many people (men, women and intersex) are harmed by rigid ideals of what acceptable genitals look like.

[@Sunglowgrowth]

At 8:50 it is very surprising that a doctor can give such a straight forward cognitive answer when it comes to criticism in their field.

[@GeorgeKizzle93]

I don't really agree with the gender fluid, non-binary proposition of human sexuality, but these people have point. You're talking about relatively rare genetic variations and alternative sexual organ development. Genes that are expressing the production of both male and female hormones. I highly doubt there is medical literature comparing early to later stage modification of sexual organs in pseudohermaphroditic patients. These procedures are most likely being performed in order to theoretically protect the psychological health of the child. And since most of these genetic variations are in no way life threatening, there is literally no medically justifiable reason to perform them. If however, there are complications regarding the function of the urinary system, then an argument can be made for such procedures.

[@cognitivedissonancecamp6326]

That California Doctor sounds like someone I would keep a long distance from my kids genitals - anyone who makes the ends of their words flair up like that has to be psychotic, she proves it with that answer when she says parents can do whatever they want because some “team” explained to them what might grow down there. That’s religion, not science, and pragmatism, respect for individual dignity.

[@aristotel2094]

Ok but her name is pigeon? 😭

[@lisamac2764]

Lol.. cultures integrating aren’t always the greatest. Not unusual name in Spanish.. Would mean little dove. Paloma or pichon often as a nickname. Should not be her literal name.. agreed, but kinda fits her I think.

[@MG-qp5hz]

Yeah wtf don’t you have some respect for your kid. Well I guess not......

[@eamondunbar8229]

Did the video not say they use they/them pronouns?

[@katinagehn9337]

*they. Not she.

[@thekalekale]

You guys are horrible people it's just a name

[@GNF-bf1bo]

Her mother seemed so sweet ,she was led by MD give mother a chance .

[@ramblerclassicman221]

It would interest me to learn the hormonal effects of the presence of both female and male genitalia and how it affects child development. Perhaps it would be germane to discuss the repercussions of both removing and leaving parts through scientific data in order to form a relevant and unbiased decision.

[@cris-tl7zz]

They have the money for surgery. But didn't have acceptance for themselves.

[@phanatic215]

It's a desperate attempt to make your kid be "normal".

[@angelgjr1999]

Surgeons just want that bonus for doing surgery. Same reason why circumcision is so common in America. It’s all money.

[@PegahSye]

I thank god for google, I feel I don’t get scammed like this Becuase I’ll be the searching everything

[@amandaclaireon4065]

Right like this world is accepting of people who are different to the status quo of the majority

[@Dave102693]

@@amandaclaireon4065 the comments section is proof that people are willing to run over people for the status quo.

[@naysahisrael2914]

It's impossible to know how ANY decision that a parent makes will effect the child as an adult.

[@b0nesX580]

The voice and mannerisms of a female but the face of a male

[@cabbage4254]

You may be missing the point?

[@GhoulGrundle]

@@cabbage4254 I don't think they missed anything. They were simply taking note of an example of an intersex individual.

[@cabbage4254]

Suppressor ah. Ok. I didn’t consider that.

[@pprraapparra]

I like the point of view of the urologist near the end. I never thought much of this intersex case and it was common to assume that people with both genitalia will choose one of the gender role, then move on with their life. It took me years to realize it wasn't that simple. And as I am not living with that body, I couldn't be sure if it doesn't affect your self-sense when you were born with two genitalia but then mutilated to only have one. Now I wonder if the people in the medicine field have other consideration to do the surgery early instead of waiting until the child becomes an adult. For example, does it have to do with growth spurt of the secondary sex characteristics? Will the procedure be easier to carry out prior puberty, thus makes the recovery process smoother for the patient? I am also curious of how we should facilitate the kid' growth and development then. The restroom issue might seem trivial, but it could be the very place where the intersex kids started being harassed for being different. The purpose of separating restroom between males and females was to make the females feel comfortable and safer from sexual harassment. But judging from the facilities, I guess the female restroom would be safer for intersex children as they tend to build separate multiple little rooms? Oh man. There are a lot of things need to be unpacked.

[@savagedragon79]

Does she regret naming her kid pigeon?

[@professorrosenstock5026]

That's not their birth name

[@helga____1130]

Who cares

[@damnhandles]

Let me preface what I'm about to say with the statement that I COMPLETELY understand what some intersex individuals have gone through physically and psychologically as a result of the surgeries performed on them as newborns and infants. However, I bet all the activists in this video also believe in a woman's right to choose in the abortion debate (as do I). Activists on the other side of the issue could claim unborn children can't give consent to their termination so blocking access to abortion for EVERYONE is the only way to protect the decisions of that child. They could use a decision like outlawing intersex surgeries on infants as a precedent to overturn Roe v. Wade. This intersex surgery debate centers on the main concern of consent, in that a newborn infant cannot consent to intersex surgery so the procedures must be blocked for EVERYONE until a child can give consent. On the whole, government controlling what medical procedures can be performed just makes me nervous.

[@teachoc9482]

The kids should decide for themselves when they are older, and the same should be for circumcision. My son was mad that we had him circumcised, but we thought it was just the normal thing to do and that other boys would tease him if he wasn't. So, I think that should also be stopped because parents don't really know what their kids will want later in life.

[@distorta]

The comments section is going to be more lit than Rise of Skywalker

[@NeverMetTheGuy]

There hasn't been a good Star Wars in the lifetime of most people at Vice, so that won't be too hard.

[@mssparker2151]

NeverMetTheGuy I just hollered!!! 😂😂🤣🤣

[@dertythegrower]

Vice and junky now Star Wars are owned by the same company now. aka disney aka abc news aka espn aka sjw disney bias.. vice subscribers like me for many years are disgraced by the disney owned viceland and the sjw filled nyc broklyn vice office of dimwit kids in the city bubble

[@arikrampus6825]

It's a hard one this, it can lead to such bad body and gender dysphoria if a parent makes a choice and it's wrong!. I think it needs to be left for them to choose when they are older and them alone.

[@assiterkv]

As the non-binary choice becomes more accepted culturally there would hopefully be less stigma to being intersex- so parents hopefully won’t worry so much about their child “fitting in”. We are evolving slowly - it’s good to see...

[@SupportGamin2024]

Humans don't Evolve,wake up,humanity never evolved,we just adapted over the years

[@TheShapingSickness]

It's like hundreds of people just read the title and saw the thumbnail and then down voted.

[@katherine390]

I mean the big question is, does it affect their health in any way? Will they develop both hormonal issues?

[@woohooboy]

I'm curious to know how conservatives would deal with having an intersex child. Since they are against the idea of a child being able to transition, would they make the decision themselves to choose a gender, or allow the child to grow up before a decision is made ......

[@uchiabetrayer2]

This is more about taking the rights away from the parents. In this sense it is the state coming and telling you what you can and cannot do. Especially in most cases when the child is the biological creation of both parents, they should have the ultimate right, not the state.

[@woohooboy]

@@uchiabetrayer2 - The right is still with the parents as they are ultimately the ones in charge of the child's future and well being. I'm curious to see what the conservative mindset on this issue is........

[@donovanpreston6614]

@@woohooboy Probably despair that my child was born deformed.

[@packguar6617]

@@uchiabetrayer2 What do you think of infant circumcision?

[@amie8889]

@@woohooboy Isn't it time people started thinking for themselves as to what is right or wrong? The left right paradigm has no place in reality.

[@SirAmicVarze]

Everyone in the comments is talking about how much people are going to argue and yet just about everyone agrees that this is wrong.

[@michaelmccarthy4615]

It's the individual parents that can make it wrong.... Similar to the circumcision decision, but without the psychological consequences.

[@Dave102693]

I'm not intersexed (as far as I know), but I feel resentment towards my mom on me getting a circumcision.

[@IgnasV]

*Genital mutilation

[@professorrosenstock5026]

Understandable

[@Dave102693]

@@IgnasV exactly

[@greyideasthetheliopurodon4640]

Yeah

[@efolinsky]

Intersex not intersexed, you wouldn't be femaled or maled, hence intersex not intersexed

[@DanielSVTorres]

I might be wrong but the last time a researched about intersex I found out that doctors could identify if the baby was truly Male or female by genetics and that intersex people dont have both fully functioning genitals, one of then can fully develop and the other stays atrophied. In the end this is a very complex situation that must not be generalized.

[@decnet100]

What I found interesting was that at 0:12 they showed that the genetics said this was a boy (XY chromosomes), and they went on turning this baby into a girl. I think that sort of thing should definitely be banned, as it's based on nothing but social views ("this baby won't be accepted as a 'real' boy...")

[@cannedmullet]

Intersex people can have both, neither, or just one of the male/female genitalia. Many intersex people have varying chromosomes such as XXY, XXYY, XYY, etc. Many intersex people also don’t have entire male or female dominant hormones. It’s much more common than many think and a majority of intersex people don’t actually know they’re intersex.

[@DanielSVTorres]

@@decnet100 I saw a documentary once, about a woman from Italy or Greece that was born with this same problem, the thing is she never felt female. Later in life she discovered that she actually had Male predominance in her Genes and hormonal system but her mother wanted a girl not a boy when she was born, so the mother chose make her a female instead of male. In the end she/he had a pretty bad life because she/he became infertile and the surgery left a lot of scars.

[@decnet100]

@@DanielSVTorres I can imagine, it's really sad when you think about it. There is not much that separates this sort of thinking from a purely economic decision, "a girl will cost the family more in wedding gifts, so let's turn this baby into a boy" (or vice versa, depending on the situation and culture and so on)...

[@pidgepagonis]

Daniel Torres not at all, you’re incorrect.

[@theplaylister]

I wish that they would have provided information about what age they consider old enough to make such a decision and what are the consequences of waiting until the child reaches that age. Would waiting make the possibility to conform to the female or male form less likely?

[@sasachiminesh1204]

The surgeon knows that they are just responding to social fear, not "health" concerns.The surgeon is lying and also, she makes her money by saying "yes" to surgery, not "no." MOST clitoral reductions result in nerve damage. MOST intersex adults are unhappy with the surgery they did NOT get to choose. The surgeon says she "tries to enforce" her outlook, but she has no right to enforce anything. The right to choose belongs to the person. Sexual mutilation is all about giving in to "normalcy."

[@PARIJATDEVARSHY]

I see parallels with the way Religion is imposed on us from Birth ... without us having the opportunity to choose or to oppose, till its too late.

[@No1important88]

The only problem with the premise of consent is that the infants can’t communicate what’s best for them at that age, that’s why it needs to be left to the parents and doctors to decide what they think is best for the infant, as they cannot for themselves.

[@coyotefire69420]

Im glad Vice interviews extensively both sides and not just one narrative

[@kierenllama3568]

Jesus Christ the like to dislike ratio is scaring me. Wtf is wrong with people why would you object to the video

[@TheLoughDuck55]

Vice in 2012: groundbreaking documentaries Vice 2019: bruh

[@fouwat]

You nailed it!!!!!!!

[@professorrosenstock5026]

There are intersex children. This is nicer than the ones I use to watch as a child. This feels more human and less scary.

[@kznovak]

I was born with partial androgen insensitivity syndrome, a type of intersex condition. Each case and diagnosis is different, waiting until the child has a choice might frankly be too late. The decisions my parents made with my pediatric urologists were the right ones for me and probably for many like me with a similar diagnosis. I find legislation as too generalizing and each case should be approached individually. There are plenty of intersex people who are happy with the decisions made for them as childen.

[@BS-yt6en]

I'm pretty sure the majority are upset or still don't even know. And not knowing still doesn't make it any less of a violation. You're one of the lucky ones.

[@kznovak]

@@BS-yt6en True. But there is no easy answer. For intersex individuals who are upset, what is it that they really want? Are they searching for "normalcy" or the closest thing to it? I realize being normal in this modern era is often a taboo concept, but I believe a lot people, intersex or not, strive for being normal, especially in regards to sex characteristics. In many cases of intersex children, they're never going to be the typical male or female regardless, which is okay. But is waiting until someone is old enough to make the decision really the answer either?

[@yetanotherjohn]

Parents DO NOT always have the kids best interest in mind. Many parents see their kids as possessions, seeing them as individuals comes later, when the child demands to be seen as an individual. If the kid grows up and wants surgery, then they can do it then.

[@polisigh216]

The parents were being told by a doctor and they did not have access to the information that we have now.

[@ezra6788]

as a kid i had surgeries all the time but it was for orthopedic issues i was born with. i still think that most of the surgeries i had we’re forced upon me. my mom decided and just informed me on what they were doing i never had a choice. most of the surgeries i had did not help me at all. i have low blood flow on one of my legs and i’m still in pain so they didn’t “fix” what they thought needed to be fixed and i’m left with little improvements.

[@ogdenville]

I am just here for the comments.

[@damekadavis8283]

Me too

[@HarryJSteele]

🤨I agree, leave that "which should be covered up for 18 years" alone to develop and evolve into the person and their parts.

[@MirandaTheShinigami]

In the end, this is about someone's relationship with their body & also has a lot to do with sex as well. It would make more sense to wait until at least 14-16 years old for the child to have input on what they want.

[@ceceruben6113]

14-16? A stretch when they have about 70 more years of life ...

[@StrawberryNinjaNibbles]

Can chromosomal testing not determine the true “sex” of the child?

[@KKISCRAZYFUL]

Sometimes but even that is super complicated and some people don't have a perfect answer

[@Exiled.New.Yorker]

The survivors of this kind of surgery who are speaking against this are the ones who are lucky enough that the GUESS their parents and doctors made about their adult sexuality happened to be right. Show me someone born Intersex who is a different gender than the one surgically assigned to them thinks these surgeries are okay. Show me that that woman isnt just making the biggest "I got mine, screw you" statement in modern medicine by fighting this. Make no mistake, without talking to the child in question it IS a GUESS. They are guessing what sex and gender an infant will be. Do you have surgery based on guesses?

[@lillybrown4228]

The choice seems so contradictory. How can you choose one when the person is made with two. Piercing baby ears or cutting their private parts it's not up to you let them choose. It's your choice to live your life as you please. This blows my mind.

[@sinas.7700]

Why not give us the full picture and interview the intersex person against the bill, too? This seems one-sided.

[@spenceranderson9642]

I 100% believe that surgeries that aren't medically necessary should NOT be forced upon children who cannot consent. Like, honestly, even circumcision. Why are we so obsessed with making children look "perfect" and "normal"? Especially their genitals??? If a kid came out with rather large dumbo ears, would the doctors be in a rush to convince the parents to have the ears pinned back? I don't think so. I just find it so weird that we hold the private parts of children to such high standards of "right" and "perfect". It's so fucking weird. Someone's genitals are their business, when they're 18 they can do whatever they want because they know what will make them feel comfortable. As long as everything works and does no harm, then the harm is more likely to come from it being """fixed""". Leave it alone.

[@someotherguy43]

That doctor makin bread of them surgeries hahaha

[@whatyalldoing7012]

The fact that they are doing surgery on babies is fucking beyond me its a damn baby. Im over it.

[@MrEtherShot]

Leaked new season of American Horror Story.

[@arquilli1]

What percentage of intersex people are happy/glad they were able to get the surgery? Show the breakdown

[@scottystimpson4745]

Why are we doing this to people in the 21st century? I’m pretty sure if there’s any doubt as to what someone is we should just let them decide..

[@IndrasChildDeepAsleep]

The surgeries may have saved those few from being stigmatized as not fitting into the binary, but not from anything more. End the mutilation!!

[@marthawebber6425]

Ignorance is a bliss nowadays! This boy was castrated because his parents didn't bother to question the boy's doctors and getting information about his condition.

[@d4221]

Parents shouldnt need to choose their children gender im a mom with a boy and a girl i didnt choose their genders god did and if they had both i eouldnt give them a surgery ill let them choose who they want to be when they are old enough to make the decisions

[@BabbleCacophony]

I don't understand. You say God decides but you are okay with your child deciding once they are older? I don't think you said anything wrong. I just don't quite understand.

[@DrGeta666]

**grabs popcorn**

[@rakaipikatan8922]

Can I have one? With a bit of salt?

[@DrGeta666]

Rakai Pikatan dig in. This should be an interesting comment section.

[@BenevoIence]

@@rakaipikatan8922 A bit? Sorry it only comes in extra large.

[@rakaipikatan8922]

@@BenevoIence I'm afraid I run out of my two cents. Does it comes extra spicy too?

[@haazsstarship7530]

Leave intersexed people as is; they're more valuable that way. Perfect.