The Fnaf Novels did Circus Baby Dirty (The Failed Closet)

Because I haven't complained about the Fourth Closet recently. I joke, but in truth I have only glossed over Circus Baby in her own video and talked at lengths about Charlie Emily, so it seemed time to give Novel Baby her own video and really deconstruct the issues with how her character was handled. What do I mean? Let's find out!
Music:
Cemetery Clown - Sir Cubworth
In the Garden - Godmode
Mi Dispiace - Mini Vandals
Sloppy Clav - Godmode
Dave's Theme Slowed - Dayshift at Freddy's
0:00 Sickness, Trainwrecks, and Butchering
1:24 Circus Baby in the games
2:12 The Complicated Backstory of Baby in the Book
3:28 What Baby does in The Fourth Closet
5:31 The Creepy Sexualization of Circus Baby
8:42 Baby's an Awful Actress, Everyone's just Dumb
9:46 Inconsistency in Baby's Behavior & Desires
10:58 Baby's Constant Monologuing & Exposition
11:53 Baby's Weird Relationship with Jessica
12:22 Carlton, the Real Main Character
13:39 The "Love Triangle" with John is lame
14:18 Baby's Just Will's Lackey
15:09 Baby's High School Mean Girl "Rivalry" with Charlie
17:28 Why Charlie vs. Baby is so Shallow & Stale
18:36 The Big Problem with Sympathetic Baby
19:22 Bioshock 2 Comparison: Eleanor vs. Elizabeth
21:27 Redeeming Baby Would Require Effort
21:56 Baby Should've Defeated Mark (Betray Afton)
22:41 Decent Concept vs. Poor Execution
24:28 Book Baby ISN'T Circus Baby
26:19 The Big Sexy Plothole (A Tight Squeeze)
27:46 The Ruse of Giving Fourth Charlie Fake Importance

[@koffiecake]

I made you fanart

[@notrealnamenotatall2476]

8D I would love to see it! Can you give me a link?

[@shumanakazawa]

It looks great

[@koffiecake]

kzbin.infoUgkxaEv3XbXWxdkmAqoQuyVtjz5X0eGeTpu1@@notrealnamenotatall2476

[@Goldiethesalmon]

That's nice

[@koffiecake]

@@shumanakazawa tysmm

[@user-dk3lg9np6p]

It's so bizarre to me how scott wrote, designed and ruined a cool and interesting villain and then forgot about her just like that.

[@notrealnamenotatall2476]

I mean, he did it twice if we count Vanny. While Steel Wool took over the game development, Scott was still largely involved with the story. So, he created Vanny.

[@gijs.22]

I think Scott gets ahead of himself sometimes and then tries to dial back but does that too extreme too

[@Echosinfireify]

Scott doesn’t care about women. There’s a reason why there are no moms, that Charlie’s gender is a retcon and that when forced to discuss the women in the games in more depth that we ended up with evil temptress and a ‘not like other girls’ girl.

[@aquaticalateralis]

​@@Echosinfireifyhuh????

[@alexs7670]

@@Echosinfireify this seems like a stretch to me. It's like saying he doesn't care about cats because there's no cats in the series.

[@bluestrangler0447]

“I’m not against breasts I’m a women who can appreciate a nice chest” The couplet of the century

[@Timeline6Fnaf]

Clap and a half

[@arti2901deer]

A nice chest a day, keeps bone awake ~ Sun Tzu (i think)

[@SunTzu544BC]

@@arti2901deerpretty sure he said that

[@jbiehlable]

So do I NotRealName, but people tend to get...varied reactions if you admit such a thing...especially if you're a guy like me.

[@Fighting.Flower]

That honestly sounded like a rap verse to me, a pretty sick rap verse at that!

[@abarax_altered1666]

"Don't sexualize the clown toddler." Best quote ever.

[@Jesterman]

It's really weird how they decided to add the Elizabeth backstory to this version of Baby. Not only does it make the sexualization far more creepy, or never factor into the plot, but it also directly conflicts with Afton's Silver Eyes motives. In that book, he was jealous that Henry had a family and he doesn't, which is why he killed Henry's and other people's kids.

[@notrealnamenotatall2476]

True. A lot of my issues with Fourth Closet Baby would be much smaller or just non-existent if they didn't try to make her Elizabeth Afton too.

[@YourFeelingsSucks]

If that help, the author was a deranged person who get caught by doing more than just Baby.

[@bigpoggers6507]

The 3-in-one package is goofy for sure

[@YourFeelingsSucks]

​@@sunnyisabunny1479FNAF wasn't targetted to kids to begins with. Baby is just odd but i'm not going to panic over a drawing.. The author is unhinged on the other hand, see the difference between fiction and reality?

[@YourFeelingsSucks]

​@@sunnyisabunny1479yeah yeah, whatever make you happy.. 🙄

[@kaylieghskorner9650]

I know I'm late but the biggest, most disgusting part of circus baby being sexualized is that Elizabeth is SIX YEARS OLD! And she's STILL being treated like this! It's just gross. It was already bad that she was sexualized, don't get me wrong! But the fact she was only six makes it just go from character assassination to disgusting.

[@sophitiaofhyrule]

If Scott and his ghost writers really had to sexualize an animatronic, Ballora would've been a much better and less problematic choice

[@kaylieghskorner9650]

@@sophitiaofhyruleExactly! It would still have been annoying, but not gross

[@aiiv7839]

I feel like a potential solution would be to have Baby have two personalities; the Baby half and the Elizabeth half. Have the robotic half do some of the stuff she does, but for some moments where Lizzie talks about her past, have Lizzie take over. How to tell her apart? The eyes. Baby can have blue eyes, like in the games before she kills Elizabeth, and when Elizabeth takes over, she can have green eyes!

[@dr.archaeopteryx5512]

I hope it never happens but if it ever turns out Scott has certain bad interests in underage folks I will not be too surprised 🙃 Imma just assume this is just a weird creepy fluke caused by his inability to think things through for now though

[@aiiv7839]

@@dr.archaeopteryx5512 That's...a bit much, mate. Granted, we don't know him on a personal level, but given how Scott has responded to stuff like the LafyFiszi scandal, I think it's safe to say he's not THAT kind of guy.

[@rabiahbosriali4218]

One of my own grievances with The Fourth Closet is that they established that the real Charlie was murdered by Afton, and that point makes me realize how weird it is that the Puppet, the animatronic who is supposed to be possessed by Charlie in the game series, to my knowledge. never made an appearance in the book trilogy. And I think that's such missed potential to not have our protagonist Charlie interact with the Puppet, the human Charlotte, the one she was made to be a replacement for. I think it would have made for a compelling narrative to have them meet.

[@annieandelsieofarendelle3294]

I would've preferred if, instead of Baby, it was the Puppet. It would add such an exciting tragedy and drama since Charlie and the Puppet are already foils for each other. The former is an animatronic designed to be a human, while the latter is a human soul trapped inside an animatronic. We could also have the Puppet feeling betrayed by Henry for replacing her and dying instead of finding a way to save her and hatred towards Charlie for being said replacement. Also, she might have some interesting reactions to John if she does remember him, even if it's only vaguely where she's debating between killing him and sparing him.

[@justice8718]

Charlie is Nightmare in the games and Scott cared more about Nightmare than he did with the puppet.

[@redpanda6497]

@@justice8718 She was confirmed to be Puppet in FNAF 6. What are you talking about?

[@justice8718]

@@redpanda6497 Remember how it worked in the chica/Susie Fright story. The puppet is the Susie. Nightmare is the Chica.

[@redpanda6497]

@@justice8718 I haven't read it, but the books are an alternate universe. Chica is Susie, Puppet is Charlie and Nightmare is, well, a nightmare. Nothing in your comment makes sense to me.

[@thegayghost872]

What I don’t understand is why the adult Charlie had to be Circus Baby instead of just… another Charlie

[@freekeyboard9988]

“And locking her in a closet in a pizzeria in the basement underneath his house” This line proves how absurd this whole thing is

[@mr.blackwhite7846]

As unfortunate as it is, this issue comes across a lot throughout Scott’s writing. He’s good at setting things up, but not so good at the build-up part, in terms of plot that is. Take Mike for example. His character was made known in SL, and instead of us spending more time with him afterwards, he was immediately killed off and forgotten about in the next game. And, sure, the nightguards in the previous games were Mike, but we didn’t know that before SL. To everyone’s knowledge, they were random Joes. The recontextualization that they were Mike wasn’t as impactful, and had Mike been given at least another game before his end in FFPS, he would’ve been an even better character. Still, the guy was pretty good as a silent protag. Which made it even more sad that Henry, a character from the books that told a separate story, with absolutely no previous buildup in the games, was the one to deliver the ending speech, when it should’ve been Mike. This trend where Scott does something cool, but then botches it to an extent later is very apparent, especially here with novel Baby. The first book was pretty good, and a continuation could’ve done wonders for its characters and world… But that wasn’t what happened. Everything was killed with TTO and buried with the TFC. Plots, characters, worldbuilding, everything. And that sucks so much… But what can ya do? In the end, Scott’s human, and he makes mistakes, so for what it’s worth, the stories he did give us, complex but seemingly aimless as they were, were pretty swell. “There are no plot holes, only holes in your understanding” - Scott Cawthon, Reddit. Sure thing, Scott. Anyway, enough of this rant, very neat video!! You never miss it with the salt, and I’m glad there’s someone in the fandom to say it like it is!

[@sophitiaofhyrule]

Honestly fans do a way better job at writing his characters

[@mr.blackwhite7846]

@@sophitiaofhyrule Indeed.

[@Wizardjones69]

In my opinion henry speech should be micheal speech, and henry should be turned into on man consequences after charlie's death, micheal *should* be considered pizzaria simulator protagonist, but henry fucked up it

[@raelogan]

Scott dumped all his skill points in design and programming, and left storytelling a little underdeveloped. He has cool ideas, but he doesn't know how to utilize them to thier fullest extent.

[@YourFeelingsSucks]

Scott may have made the games by himself first, but he wasn't the best when it come to story-telling.. Outside of Phone Guy, it is tiring to know what a game is about, until Pizzeria Simulator where Henry was unreachable for years, but he ended the nightmare and eternal suffering of the victims (his daughter as well). Lefty was his creation to lure and encapsulate the puppet, which was a sucess, but Lefty became unstable in the process. The way he move on stage is really more agitated than the other animatronics.

[@Eric_Black134]

You ever wonder why Circus Baby is named Circus "Baby?" Of all the games, the name sticks out. All of the other characters are named by their animal species (Foxy, Bonnie, etc.") or the object/activity they represent (Ballora and Puppet/marionette). The ones that don't follow those naming conventions either have their species in their last name (Freddy Fazzbear, Roxanne Wolf, etc.), connect their name to someone else (mini-rinas and Biddybabs), or their name is an acronym (Lefty). As far as I can tell, Baby fits into none of these categories. I thought it could be a reference to her design, but that doesn't sit right with me either. Her original Sister Location design doesn't really suggest "infant" or "sexy" to me (both common meanings for "baby"). Her outfit and hair suggest young child, but the white arounnd her stomach breaking her outfit into a two-piece is what kills that for me. I can admit, I've put way too much thought into this. But I just don't understand why Baby's name is so drastically different than any other animatronic in the entire series

[@THGMR-ox7sd]

I think the “white part around the stomach area” is part of the outfit and not breaking the outfit. It’s kind unfortunate that it’s the same colour as the “skin” but at least I think it makes the design less… you know.

[@Eric_Black134]

@@THGMR-ox7sd Makes sense... but it still kills that "dressed like a child" illusion for me.

[@justice8718]

Baby is a siren that lures you to your death wiht her womanly charms. That's why her name is Baby.

[@makswolanski5549]

​@@THGMR-ox7sdi always noticed that when it comes to ballora, couse if we assume that the white is her 'skin' then she's esentially wearing nothing a skirt and an headphones shaped bra. I never really noticed that colour thing with baby

[@BrightWulph]

The only reaosn I can think for the name "Baby" is Afton was fereing to Circus Baby as *his Baby*, his passion project and then it became literally after Baby killed his IRL daughter Elizabeth. That is the only explanation behind the name I can come up with.

[@shumanakazawa]

Idk, I think Henrys suicide bot was just made for the plot so they could have a convient reason to kill both Charlies without too much explanation. If Henry wanted to kill himself, he could just stab himself without a robot.

[@kanebekkattla3963]

or just use a gun to shoot himself

[@ultmateragnarok8376]

It existed before the concept of Charlie being a robot was even a thing, though, when TSE was a standalone book with no planned followup. I _think_ it was either meant to be a slight metaphor of him wanting to be killed by his creations, or it was possibly meant to be some open-ended concept that perhaps he was killed by a soul possessing that bot or himself went on to possess that bot. It would've been a decent idea and more in-line with the franchise at that point. That endo is also completely butchered visually - it has a pretty compelling description in the novel, with a molded metal face of unimaginable grief and so forth, but the illustrations just depic a regular endoskeleton. Unfortunately this is a trend with the graphic novels, up to the point of them entirely failing to depic either the unnamed Funtime Mangle or Blacktime Freddy in TFC, failing to accurately depict the Twisted in their undisguised states, and completely redesigning the amalgam of metal at the end of TFC.

[@shumanakazawa]

@@ultmateragnarok8376 don't know too much about the books, thanks for the info

[@duckman9327]

@@ultmateragnarok8376I hate to break it to you, but the silver eyes has foreshadowing to the twisted ones AND the fourth closet. The idea that Scott had no plan with the novels is downright stupid

[@duckman9327]

All three books were very much planned, with the charliebot twist and all the details surrounding henry’s suicide being planned as well.

[@ithinkflutterawesome6511]

My favorite plot hole in TTO is when Charlie enters the plot because she knows what springlock scars look like... when she was never even present in that scene. Never. She has never seen William's scars. And it isn't a "oh, Carlton must've talked to her about it," because she specifically talks about it like she was there. The entirety of the sequels to the Silver Eyes hinges on Charlie being in a scene she was never in, and developing a personality she never had.

[@notrealnamenotatall2476]

Yeah, that is a HUGE issue. XD

[@YourFeelingsSucks]

I see that even the books aren't spared by the plot-holes.. It was already annoying in the games.

[@bigpoggers6507]

Literally my only guess on how she knew this was because she remembered how the springlocks looked and connected the dots of "hey, these scars look like the springlocks", but like, this doesn't make much sense because once again she talks like she's seen the scars themselves instead of connecting the dots

[@ghidorah15]

@@notrealnamenotatall2476 And yet another reason your rewrite of that book works out so much better.

[@theinvisiblebrick636]

She probably has seen spring lock scars on William, who worked with her father and got spring locked before TSE. How she didn't recognize him in TSE is strange though.

[@shark6228]

To me, it feels like they wanted to make a character like Harley but failed to understand what made her work. She's much more than Joker's crazy lover, Harley had a lot of personality and her own motivations along with being quite intelligent. She even moved on from Joker and still managed to stand out as her own person. Book Baby/Evil Charlie is what you get when you only stare at the surface level of Harley and not deeper into her character

[@YourFeelingsSucks]

Harley Quinn was just really good, she wasn't a mindless simp, she realized that Joker isn't always right.

[@ToyFreddyGaming1987]

"The Failed Closet" sounds so funny to me. It could mean so many things.

[@shinyocelot04archive]

Still hurts to see how much the books changed Baby and Afton in the games. At least the Mimic transitioned over a bit better.

[@A.B.-ub9un]

The novels treat Charlie how how the FNaF community treats the Crying Child. Both are simply used as plot devices to set up the backstories of Henry and William respectively. The community treats the Crying Child's death to create a excuse or some kind of motivation for William's murder spree. Charlie is treated as just a tool to push the narrative about Henry when we should've gotten a game about that instead.

[@redpanda6497]

The crying child is such a wasted potencial. He has a strong connection's to Micheal's motivation to be a better person and save the kids, but he's treated as an unimportant side character for some reason. The VHS tapes fixed it ( I know Squimpus isn't a good person, but I still love the tapes and I still think they're well made ). He's the cynical yin to Charlie's optimistic yang and he's reasonably mad at his "savior". He believes Mike is no different than his father and his brother has to prove him wrong. Not only that, but he also took the shape of the animatronic that caused his death. That's why Golden Freddy has unique powers, because he didn't die the same way as the MC did. Cassidy in the canon story who kinda takes his place is just there. She's special and vengeful even though she was also killed and stuffed into a mascot. I understand why Puppet is special, she's the daughter of the founder, she grew up in the pizzeria and she knew Micheal. But Cas? You could swap Cas out for CC and the story would make much more sense. I don't like the sympathetic motivation theory for William btw. I think it misses the point of the type of people he's potraying.

[@A.B.-ub9un]

@@redpanda6497 My issue with Squimpus's AU is that we get nothing on Mike's POV, so we are just told Mike is a good person, but none of his actions in the series reflect this.

[@redpanda6497]

@@A.B.-ub9un Yeah, I agree.

[@Wizardjones69]

I mean, we know that squimpus mike is pratically fnaf 4 mike and he cries when his father is being abusive, and obviusly willian calling him a "failure"

[@A.B.-ub9un]

@@Wizardjones69 It still feels like a excuse to portray William as being in the wrong, yet still make it so that Mike's stupid childish antics was what inspired William to kill kids in the same exact manner as how Mike killed his brother. It makes William look like a lame and uncreative villain when he needs a fucking teenager to give him a reason to do evil things or how to do evil acts.

[@redtailarts101]

Circus Baby was such a wonderful villain. This is such a disservice to her character. I don't understand why Scott decided to make the fourth Charlie be Baby. Baby is cold, Baby is smart, Baby is helpful only if it helps gain your trust, and Baby is a convincing pretender. She's learned it quite well. She is Afton's daughter, but she's become dissillusioned from her identity as Elizabeth and refers to Lizzy as a separate person. She even recounts the day she died from the animatronic's perspective, likely having Baby's "memories," because she doesn't really see herself as Elizabeth anymore. None of this is in regard to Scrap Baby, because FFPS was a character assassination. Also. Why make her hot. Elizabeth is a child and Circus Baby is a child character. If Hot Charlie had to be a character from the games it should have been Ballora, a character who was, for all intents and purposes, a blank slate. A blank slate who's only character traits were being sexy, being evil, and not being able to learn to pretend. The minimal characterization Ballora had would have worked for the 4th Charlie.

[@improvwithlions4173]

Plus you could have her spider out post reveal! Fun

[@Greenboi32]

I feel like most of these issues would have been solved if the writers had instead used Ballora

[@YourFeelingsSucks]

Ballora didn't played a major role, but i do agree.

[@platinumg.8614]

Gosh Elanor could be a Ballora version not the Clown.

[@Wizardjones69]

*coughs* kane carter adult theory *coughs*

[@alexinator-hh5fe]

Carlton was one of my favorite things about the books. I was never a huge fan of the romance elements in the trilogy. And him being a pretty detached character from all that(aside from a few moments) really made him feel special to me. He had comic relief, moments of tension, plot relevance and helped set the souls of the kids free. Problem is, some of the other characters were not nearly as appealing to me. John. John is one of them. Now, I understand. Charlie comes back a day after what should be a horrible tragedy completely uninjured and probably looks a bit older. Kinda suspicious. So I can understand why John seems to not trust her. But then we have several moments in TFC where he thinks, "Oh. This person could actually be Charlie." And yet he just somehow knows it isn't her and still treats her like trash for most of the book. His excuse is that she's a little off and that she isn't injured at all. Except, oh wait, when he discovers the real Charlie, she also isn't injured at all. But he's like, "Yeah. This is definitely Charlie". So then, the tension and like, a good chunk of his reasoning for being suspicious of Not-Charlie kinda fall flat because it feels less like something he actually noticed and more like something that happened because the plot demanded it. What if Not-Charlie really was her? And John just decided to cut his friend off and treat her worse trash in a sewer. Imagine how awful that would've made actual Charlie feel. It comes off less as, "How romantic. He knew it wasn't her all along" and more like, "This is kinda yikes"

[@notrealnamenotatall2476]

Carlton definitely was the coolest things in the book. I didn't directly say it in the video, but I feel like the books would be leagues better with him as the main protagonist. He carries a scene. XD

[@bigpoggers6507]

Carlton is the FNAF equivalent of Luigi, he isn't the main guy, but literally everybody and their mamas like him more

[@Doopyhpp]

@@bigpoggers6507true

[@ghidorah15]

@@notrealnamenotatall2476 Y'know, I'm wondering how it would've gone if "Hot Charlie" was just a natural extension of Charlie's growth as a person and her flirting with Carlton came about simply because she got along so much better with him than with John. Mind you, the rewrite you did of _The Twisted Ones_ would more easily lead into this, since Charlie actually finds some kind of closure for her past even as a new surprise emerges (keeping it vague for those who haven't watched the video).

[@monoduck]

Carlton was just my guy. He's like the most interesting character, besides marla and jason (who are also more or less got ruined?) He's the only one that stayed in town, the one that probably knows the most about the restaurant besides charlie. Not including him in the second book was a mistake, and making him sexualize a child????? Stop ruining the best character! >:[

[@giovannisoto4353]

I remember one part of the novel where Adult Charlie makes herself look just like the original teen Charlie, so there really was no reason for her to look like that ( how is she fooling everyone so easily?) this book also ruins scrap baby for me by making her love Afton for some reason.

[@YourFeelingsSucks]

Wait.. she love William? What's the artist was even thinking?..

[@giovannisoto4353]

@@YourFeelingsSucks Oh sorry i didn't mean it like that, what i meant was that Scrap Baby in Pizzeria Simulator has a complete character change in which she states "I will make you proud, daddy" meaning she wants to be just like Afton which was the complete opposite of how she acted in Sister Location. Where she wanted to escape from being trapped in for so long/

[@YourFeelingsSucks]

@@giovannisoto4353 ah alright, i got confused. That was Elizabeth who said that line.

[@justice8718]

@@giovannisoto4353 The Baby in Sister Location is the mimic and that's why she loves pretending.

[@redpanda6497]

@@justice8718 Is it a joke? It's hard to tell sarcasm in a comment.

[@Drax69420]

It's honestly bizarre how Scott saw that Kira Breed-Wrisley, PinkyPills, and Ladyfiszi were officially sexualizing the character who is not only possessed by a young girl, but is modeled after a baby for god's sake, and more or less said "Aight." I will never understand that man and his thought process.

[@alpacalover0]

I'm willing to bet like what Steel Wool has said before about their time with Scott is that he just told them to add broad strokes without any context and fill in the gaps, and for some reason all three women involved in this Trilogy just went for very weird angles with the female antagonist of the books for God knows what reasons.

[@BelBelle468]

He tends to be very…okay with his fans doing whatever they want. He’s the one who did the whole FNAF fan universe thing. Obviously this isn’t ok.

[@Drax69420]

@@BelBelle468 While it is nice that he respects fans and trusts them with their own decisions, I feel like that trust should be pulled back a bit if said fans are working on an official product that's gonna be sold for actual money. I feel like that should go double for a series that (let's face it) targets kids like FNAF.

[@slush1190]

"Sexy, not Sexualized" is a thing that SO many writers need to learn properly. You can have an attractive character without making them sexualized (especially when said sexualization doesn't really make sense and is quite awkward). There is a character from a new game that came out recently called The Lamplighter's League that exemplifies this perfectly. Ingrid is your typical "James Bond Femme Fatale" type from the spy movies of yore. She's a stereotypically (not in the bad way) attractive character, who has some small aspects of her character talking about falling in and out of love (best way to break a man is through his heart and all that). However, she never actually falls into the trap of "Sexualized" and her entire character is sort of structured to avoid that and flip gender roles, even. Ingrid is your starting team bruiser; dressed up in a thick coat, slacks and boots she kind of avoids any kind of "sexualization" tropes while still being stylish and attractive, all the while flipping the role of the party tank's gender entirely on it's head by being a Frontline fighter, preferring weighted gloves to the elegance of a pistol. It's honestly such a unique thing that I wish more writers attempted. A competent, strong female character that in no way comes off as sexualized, ignored, or """"""""strong""""""""""". Every aspect of her character is explained and demonstrated to a degree that we can fully acknowledge who she is, which is something I felt Baby/Hot Charlie in this novel sorely lacked. It just wasn't explained why all these choices were chosen for the character and it comes off uncomfortable and awkward.

[@michaelraymon111]

She doesnt come out as strong? Eh?

[@slush1190]

@@michaelraymon111 It's a common trope to make female characters do things that come off as "strong" to make their character appear more masculine, but it's often a trope employed by men writing women when they need to write a "strong, independent woman" and tends to hurt the character as a whole.

[@michaelraymon111]

@@slush1190 what the hell are you even talking about? You are upset by masculine female characters?

[@ghidorah15]

@@michaelraymon111 You fail at reading comprehension.

[@jbiehlable]

@@slush1190 Women writers do it too.

[@BrightWulph]

Yeah, this is why I like to think that Silver Eyes is the only book that matters, with Twisted ones and Fourth Cloelset being obligations. Mostly because Scott himself has said that Silver Eyes was the story of FNAF recontextualised and re-written without all of the vague lore and theories weighing it down (not his exact words, but paraphrased). So this weird, back and forth with Baby and Charlie's "daddy" issues, might not even be from him but from people who were hired to help him write and he only "approved" of what narratively made sense. Idk, the second and third books felt very much not like his work if that makes sense.

[@alexs7670]

They needed like one conversation where hot charlie just says she's charlie 2.0. That way here friends can notice she's acting different. She could just play it off as wanting to change because of the trauma. She could just genuinely want to replace charlie and want her memories, something the book could just decide afton can give her, which gives her a reason to work with him.

[@TheKingOfMadness-ez1oi]

I don’t think it can do baby dirty if baby essentially isn’t even in it, adult Charlie has the shell of baby, she has literally no relation to baby whatsoever. Even her character is a stark contrast to what Elizabeth was. (Reading it over it sounds like I’m really salty here but I’m not, definitely…..

[@tonysonic456]

And I thought Baby had enough problems. At least, the Baby we know in the games isn't this bad. I just hope that everyone who's theorizing about the Mimic being Baby is completely wrong, and we don't get a repeat of this.

[@aiiv7839]

Never understood that theory!

[@notrealnamenotatall2476]

It's like the Michael is Glamrock Freddy theory. I think people want these characters to return so badly that they want to believe the theories. Instead of the more likely 'Mimic has Fourth Charlie's backstory because the books frequently recycle plotpoints'.

[@YourFeelingsSucks]

The theory isn't canon like the others, they are interpretations of a broken storyline when a thing isn't explained nor expanded.. Phone Guy added something like what the company does and how he didn't questioned how the animatronics moved by their own at night. Pizzeria Simulator concluded the main storyline, he did it very well.

[@aiiv7839]

@@notrealnamenotatall2476 Well, I find that more believable. Back when we thought Glichtrap/Burntrap was Afton for thr umpteenth time, it'd make sense; Michael's business wasn't finished, and this time, he possessed a body to finish the job...well, at least until the Mimic was revealed (planned from the start or retconned, I'm not touching that) to be the main villain. Mimic and Baby...they don't even look alike!

[@vincentmorris8431]

​@@notrealnamenotatall2476 my entry for your next hot takes touches on that; hope you find it ;)

[@BluePhoenix_]

I think the constant switching between "i want to have a life" and "muhahaha me so evil!" are supposed to be elizabeths influence changing her behaviour from time to time. But written with the skill of JJ Abrams. I mean, just like the game baby, she doesn't really behave like elizabeth. (well until pizzeria sim for game baby)

[@sailorofthenorthstar]

The novel's version of Baby doesn't even feel like her. It feels like "Adult Charlie" was supposed to be a completely separate character from her but the writers wanted to include Baby somehow and they couldn't find a way to write both of them in so they just mashed them together. I've said this before but if they really wanted a femme fatale character, why not have AC be Ballora? It would be more fitting for her character and it would have given Ballora some actual significance in the story.

[@MichealAfton1983]

Kinda off topic but doesn’t the fourth closet confirm peepaw Afton is cannon because he’s in a wheelchair?

[@itstheblandman8734]

Are the books even canon at this point? I have a real hard time telling nowadays

[@medley_menace9268]

I always considered the books and games to take place in different universes

[@notrealnamenotatall2476]

They really should, but Pizzeria Simulator made the books pretty much required reading since they don't discuss who Henry or Charlie are but still make them lead characters. XD

[@itstheblandman8734]

@@medley_menace9268 yeah that’s what I thought too, but I remember hearing somewhere that they might be canon now? Or at least they tried to make it canon to the games somewhere. That might have been for the short story books though, so maybe I’m just foolish

[@spookyscaryskeleton3513]

@@itstheblandman8734 Theorists are saying that the books released after the Novel trilogy are in the same continuity, those being Fazbear Frights and Tales from the Pizzaplex. The Novel Trilogy is the only one confirmed to NOT be in the games. So rest assured, sexy Baby, Robot Charlies, etc, aren't canon to the games. At all.

[@MythosTheSophist]

I think Elizabeth-Charlie-Baby had potential. Elizabeth got killed when she was only a little kid. She never got to grow up and live a complex life, unlike Charlie. For years she was turned off, perhaps seeing the world through Charlie's eyes but unable to act (or maybe she got all her memories when she activated and had to process them all together). With Charlie out of the game, Elizabeth gets to replace her, she gets to live the life she never did and take revenge on Charlie for "living" while she was "dead". But she doesn't actually have much of a personality, only the little girl she was when she died but with more maturity. She doesn't know how to act like an adult, so she just ends up acting like a caricature, a doll. She wears dresses and heels and acts a fantasy with Charlie's boyfriend. It's shallow, fake. The only real part of her is her love for William and her hatred for Charlie and Henry. I think that would have worked both in terms of character and horror while keeping the sexy/ultra-feminine doppelganger thing. Waisted potential.

[@lukayaroslav9914]

Your Baby is better than all FNAF villains except William Afton( maybe)

[@bonelessfae4041]

if they REALLY wanted a sexy robot lady why didn't they just make her ballora? she's in the same game, has adult human proportions, is not possessed by a child (i hope?), and it could've been an opportunity to flesh out ballora's character, giving more context as to her existence in the game, since she is somewhat of an odd-one-out. because i'm certainly not opposed to a sexy robot lady, but having her be..... the baby that's possessed by a child? to be frank, it's fucking weird.

[@notrealnamenotatall2476]

If the video's a little too long-winded for you, I'd recommend skipping ahead and watching from 22:41 onwards. That's definitely the tightest part of the video. ^_^

[@koffiecake]

I made you fanart

[@Scrap_Ballora]

Oh thanks 😊 ☺️

[@Scrap_Ballora]

@@koffiecake Oh really? :)

[@imachair4681]

Yo, I saw your channel on the game theory survey!

[@ceres090]

What's really aggravating about this is that people are really trying to solve the story and plot of the games. Cheap tie ins like this make it so much harder because parts of the story that made sense suddenly don't anymore, and fans have to scramble to try to fix the story the creator himself broke. But he still gets all the credit like he made this well thought out and engaging story.

[@jeremyallen5974]

It IS engaging but it sure as hell ain't 'well thought out'

[@jbiehlable]

@@jeremyallen5974 Indeed.

[@christophergirardi8145]

I always believed Afton and Elizabeth desperately needed a final interaction in FFPS before ir during the fire. Would he sing to her to make up for the birthday that was taken away all those years ago? Would she finally snap back over what he did? Would Will plead with Henry to let his daughter go, showing that he did in fact care? We'll never know for sure, since it's all lost potential. PS. Notrealname, would love to hear more on your thoughts on the Bioshock franchise, such a great series.

[@justice8718]

The real William Afton was never at the Pizzeria. He only shows up being reflected at the Pizzeria's new "Fruity Maze" arcade cabinet. Watching you (the little girl main character) playing the arcade game and potentially everything you are doing at the Pizzeria simulator under the noses of the animatronics and Henyy Emily. Scraptrap is another glitchtrap. An obvious fake that replicates elements of William Afton, but can't get it quite right.

[@thelittleredhairedgirlfrom6527]

@@Skullgrin-nb9pk that has nothing to do with their point though.

[@ShadowTiger.4000]

The fourth closet: extra EXTRA salty edition (i love your sense of humour when critiquing the books XD)

[@alyx5491]

Something to remember as a character designer: Characters can be sexy but when they are "designed" in cannon, there should be a reason.

[@justarandomfnaffan]

Honestly, each of the books feel like they have different authors, I CAN enjoy them, just not in a very serious way, more of a "Jesus theres like 30 fricking things going on at once, this is insane." Now, how would I fix things? Well, for one thing, i'd replace the illusion disks with a sort of hallucinogenic gas, the gas would be intended to put children, or other victems to sleep for more ease of capture, but having a hallucinogenic side effect, sort of like the way a pile of stuff can look like a monster in the dark. That way the twisteds and possibly not Charlie can still look the way they do. On the topic of the fourth closet specifically, wouldn't it have been better if circus baby had been more like she was in the game? Imagine if instead of being this hot sexy version of Charlie, she would act like she does in sister location, hiding in the dark and acting like a friend, maybe tricking Charlie and her friends into thinking shes one of aftons victims who only wants to help, possibly helping them through circus baby's pizza world, only to lead them into a greater, more dangerous trap. Also, I know I always say this but Charlie didn’t have to/shouldn't have been a robot, it isn't a good twist, and I dont like it. Imagine instead of being weak and helpless, Maybe The ENTIRE gang, including Charlie, could have all gone to Circus baby's to look for the missing kids, you even make it work without having to write out the end of the twisted ones, maybe she could have needed support from one of the other characters with walking, but at least she hasn't been reduced to a nothing burger of a character, Anyways, that was my rant for the week, This video is absolutely amazing so far, and I always love getting to see more videos about my favorite gang of "meddling kids" Especially if its a salty one, and thank you for coming to my Ted-Talk

[@thegreatnahwhaile]

If they wanted a evil/sympathetic robot person then scott should've taken some ques from AM. Who is incredibly intelligent, irredeemably evil but constantly in pain. Feeling deep resentment to humanity. Even if you dont like that idea its at least more interesting

[@mocha3255]

Hey remember when FNAF was just a creepy game about dead children haunting some cheapy pizzaria? And thats it? It didnt go off the rails into crazy sci-fi while suddenly catering to a younger audience?

[@YourFeelingsSucks]

Making an horror game that is targetted to a young audience was never a good idea.

[@marek1shtar538]

What the writer could've done if they wanted to keep the charlie bot idea was have Baby be the one who killed Kid Charlie which is what set the chain of events going. William couldve reformated Baby into a Charlie Bot copy who would be chased by the other Funtimes, to sort attempt to seal the deal on her being the real Charlie, then for the reunited angle they both become a part of Ennard and charlie has her spirit freed in the end after Ennards destruction

[@Heroshand]

As ridiculous as the while idea of re-building your dead daughter at deferent stages of her life is... it's actually kind of a cool concept for some sort of existential 'what makes a person a person' narrative that I feel could mesh with with the whole haunted robot vibe FNAF has. It's a shame that they didn't quite have the ability to explore that idea very well, which might as well be FNAF's catchphrase come to think of it.

[@WatchThisSpace415]

4:21 Yeah you don't mention it but I remember reading the book and wondering what that conversation Novel Baby had with Aunt Jen before killing her. In hindsight, her connections to Henry could've been an outlet to dive into that complexity especially considering Aunt Jen's the one that actually brought up the other Charlie bots after Henry's death. If done right, which is a big if I'll admit, that kind of conversation could be really impactful on a second read.

[@thattransmuffin]

Now that I think about it, it is kinda weird to sexualize a chapter named “baby”

[@thattransmuffin]

Character*

[@Indecisive915]

@@sunnyisabunny1479are you saying all republicans are perverts😂

[@jbiehlable]

@@Indecisive915 This person got defended in another thread by a condescending person named @jc_arts: " Welcome to this comment section! Today we have a list of the main characters involved, what they fight for or against, and most importantly, what I think about them! Going in an order of my choice, we will begin with- Tacorikit - the obvious loli supporter stereotype, thinking fictional children are perfectly fine to sexualize, and someone saying otherwise is somehow hurting the victims of real child abuse. Started the broader politics discussion, yet thinks hes above the discussion he created, then continued to argue. Real ben shapiro type of debater. Uses the term "your kind" alot, hmm. Sunnyisabunny - the foil to tacorikit, wants to emphasize the strange pedophilic nature of the character, as well as the strange pedophilic nature of Tacorikit. Echoesinfirefly - the original spark of 'controversy' in the thread, really wants to emphasize scotts choice to not have women be a part of this story, as well as his other stories. Tends to look at things from the perspective of how they happened, as they happened. Can reasonably tell that scott decides what goes in the games. Klaibefhuoaiuwehjklbdf - really isnt here for alot of the political talk, except for defending scott about this whole 'women' thing. Wants to emphasize which characters count as characters in their eyes, and which ones dont. Only tends to look at things from the perspective of us now looking back on them happening. Cant seem to grasp that scott didnt copy the story of fnaf from some sort of existing media, but instead wrote it himself and could have written in as many women as he wanted, which he did, and he wrote zero. CreeperNerdy - likely right wing, clear supporter of scott. Thinks we "have to bring gender (female characters) into every story instead of just enjoying the story with important characters". Really wants to believe that any elements of the story not being present is actually just a mystery laid out by the all knowing scott cawthon, master of mystery. (Also i think its funny that he uses race as an example of things we 'dont' say scott doesnt care about, as if scott also doesnt have exclusively white people in his stories. And no, purple people dont count as poc) And finally, User-dk3lg9np6p - the original commenter, discovered just how insane youtube commenters can be when the topic is about anything that can be debated. To anyone who participated and tried to inform or convince anyone else of the truth, just know that what you think the truth is will differ from someone elses idea of the truth, and trying to tell them that what they know as 'true' is false, will not work. The only debates that dont end just as they started are ones in which one person has hard evidence to back it up, and the other person is open to the suggestion that they can be wrong. Something you can try, to avoid endless debates like these that have no positive resolution, is to just ask whoever it is, "what could i do to convince you otherwise", and then trying whatever they suggest, or simply not trying at all if the answer is "nothing" or something unnecessary. Anyway if i had to pick sides id say Sunnyisabunny, Echoesinfirefly, dr.archaeopteryx, devilbat_gg, and demetrian are cool. tacorikit can go fuc himself, that creepy mf. "

[@b3nt079]

​@@Indecisive915To be fair I've only ever seen Republicans get up in arms about the sexualization of fictional characters. I mean. They're the ones who freaked out about how an M&M wasn't sexy anymore because she now wears tennis shoes.

[@Indecisive915]

@@b3nt079 honestly that’s kinda funny I don’t really pay attention to politics and stuff I’m just basing what I know off of the republicans I’ve personally met

[@leftygurl]

the worst part of this whole storyline is that it eventually lead to people thinking gregbot is a thing

[@michaelraymon111]

I hope gregbot is real to piss you people off.

[@finnguy1549]

@@michaelraymon111based way of thinking

[@bitshox1215]

And lo and behold, Gregbot has been pretty much confirmed by the books.

[@YourFeelingsSucks]

The books are definitelly not tied to the games. Charlotte is an android and not a young human girl as shown in Pizzeria Simulator. The Twisted and others like Fetch weren't mentioned even once in-game. Funtime Freddy is found without Bon-bon and wasn't fused (as the main personnality) in Molten Freddy, it was found by a relative of Millie. Now the books should be associated because of the mimic, a character introduced in Tales of the Pizzaplex.. It make no sense at all, books and games follow a different path. Baby isn't canonically built to be an adult version of Charlie, but a killer robot who accidentally took Elizabeth's life.

[@MrHAH-cd9ku]

1: The human girl who dies leads into Henry making the android, with a similar but still coded personality. Human Charlie never sees interaction with many characters as herself or as The Puppet. 2: It’s mostly as a reference, but Fetch and some Twisted do appear on arcades and popups in Security Breach 3: Just as Baby, Afton, Charlie, Henry, ETC follow different paths in their novels, it’s likely the Mimic has an untold story in the games unrelated to its novel origins.

[@HassenOsnel]

The Fazbear Frights and The Tales From The Pizzaplex are canon Soportenlo pibes

[@YourFeelingsSucks]

@@HassenOsnel and they are canon NOW? This is utter-bullshit..

[@Wailerman]

I think Baby, the animatronic, isn't too bad to be sexualized, but the Baby with the *literal child soul* is

[@YourFeelingsSucks]

Agreed!

[@ghidorah15]

Absolutely! There are some lines that just shouldn't be crossed.

[@aiiv7839]

I really like the Fourth Closet, but this is a nice video! Even though Baby'w design's improved in the graphic novel, she's practically wasted potential in the story!

[@xerith42]

You posted this video right as I had to go into class. Can't wait to watch it and get salty when I get out 😂

[@Scrap_Ballora]

Oh my god 😂😂😂

[@robxholicfoxyfan8552]

I will be fair to the Twisted Ones and Fourth closet, the world building issues actually would be fun as their own thing, but put into the already confusing but ultimately straightforward (at least in the original concept and simple plotting of the first three games and then still simple in the fourth game with Dream Theory but a mess afterwards) world and logic of FNAF, it doesn't fit as well as hoped. Granted, when I got refreshed to the Night five phone call in the first game, the scifi angle did actually click more, but to the degree of the twisteds and Funtimes being in the 90's is still certainly absurd. But granted, a lot of shows and movies from every era are always limited by the time period they were made in even if they are set in a speculative future, so fiction is always going to be messier in concept than reality and the laws of existence can dictate at least by the scope. Weirdly a lot of truth is stranger than fiction when you only know so much about the world in general, as every human being is. But looking into the past for futuristic design is somewhat a bit harder when the series started with a basic and originally very grounded approach. Ghosts may not exist, but the concept of hauntings or undead exists in every single culture even if the word is different or done slightly differently. And since we are a species based on learning from what older folks teach us, we latch onto absurd concepts over long stretches of time even if for entertainment. Meanwhile, Scifi is sort of the same thing but with gradually more knowledge about the world. So a literal face splitting teddy bear that is kind of sentient with deep thought A.I. when robots basically just started being able to be put to actual approximations of human bodies less than a decade before and with dail up internet, it starts to pish the suspension of disbelief even moreso than a ghost story. Ghosts sound more in line with an 80's pizza place where kids died than Advanced AI because in that time period ghosts would be taken more seriously. Back then, Terminator and RoboCop, Alien and Predator were all often action based even when horror based. Actually not so much Alien, moreso the second Alien movie. But mostly it was horror action. Ghost stories delved more into actual possible deaths with some groundedness. There were always widely spun yarns of extremely exaggerated deaths or softer parodies like Caspar, but Scifi has a sort of intrigue that has grounded laws of physics in part, but can be completely be of someone's mind or understanding of science and be limited or freed because of it. If William met aliens to make this it would be more believable but less scary and just as absurd as the two theird of the novel trilogy. Idk I just ranted and probably made zero sense.

[@monobro141]

The novel trilogy RUINED Springtrap and Baby for me until FNAF 6 as I like their portal William being this crazy mad scientist and Elizabeth being used to sexual lure in victims rather than being a serial killer and a killer clown/ringmaster who are calculating and cruel is a TERRIBLE portray of those characters also Springtrap calling himself Springtrap no just NO

[@scorchedbread5387]

Agreed. And they don't even make any sense there. After being just a crazed, lonely dude who was killing out of jealousy and spite, William all of the sudden randomly became a mad scientist who was obsessed with immortality and absolutely hated his daughter's guts... Oh, so turns out he also DID have a family. Then what in the world was he even jealous about? (I believe in crazed lonely dude's supremacy! Screw the family, screw Remnant.) And Baby... well, do I even need to say anything? The video says it all.

[@HassenOsnel]

@@scorchedbread5387 William always wanted to be immortal because he was afraid of death and because he supposedly wanted to show Herny that he was smarter than him. You read the books with your feet lmao

[@redpanda6497]

@@HassenOsnel We say it because it doesn't fit the more serious tone of the earlier games. It feels like a motivation for Marvel or a DC villains who aren't supposed to be that intimidating and they're more of a "stop them from ending the world" obstacle. Which isn't a bad thing, superhero comics are only there for entertainment and there's nothing wrong that, we need it too, but for an urban serial killer.... uh, no.

[@scorchedbread5387]

@@HassenOsnel I won't deny that I may have misunderstood some things since English is not my first language. But like the person above says, an unhinged urban serial killer being an evil scientist just doesn't fit, even if I've messed something up in my previous reply. Like... fine, let him be obsessed with immortality and all that, but not like this. Bro changed his entire character out of nowhere, pulled out Remnant from his ass and turned into a cartoonish villain.

[@Herr_Schindler]

​@@scorchedbread5387 dude you've never read the novels lol. William was jealous about Henry's technical skills. He was worshipping him also. He's a fucking psychopath lol he can't even love

[@imachair4681]

I feel like there were so many opportunities to do anything with this concept, and it’s almost annoying how many were missed. Just don’t make her Charlie?? Have her be a murder bot possessed by Elizabeth. Or if she has to be Charlie, maybe lean into the idea of her identity crisis more, have her confused by technically being two people, with her Charlie programming and Elizabeth spirit overlapping and fighting against each other. It really makes me not want to read TTO and TFC (even tho I probably should if I’m going to try my own hand at a rewrite) idk. Great video as always, love the salt

[@deibellator1449]

I'll say this... The books really don't... affect me... like at all. I generally just ignore them... sure they've really shaped most facets of the fnaf story now, and I'm pretty sure when I'm doing my own theory diving, I'm probably pulling from them to some degree, but I honestly don't really care that much about them. The only reason I care for things like The Mimic is because it exists in the games! and for me that feels like a shame. it feels like the books should be good, like they should tell their own story in the fnaf universe without forcing us to try and connect them to every aspect of the games and therefore ruining it to some degree.

[@YourFeelingsSucks]

I only saw Fetch and the Twisted ones, but the rest weren't interesting to read.

[@michaelraymon111]

Cope

[@HassenOsnel]

@@YourFeelingsSucks The Bunny Call and The Silver Eyes are PEAK, read more

[@YourFeelingsSucks]

@@HassenOsnel the books doesn't mean everything besides those.. The twisted designs would fit the horror formula better than the glamrocks.

[@KatKaiju]

Please God, don’t let this be the movie trilogy plot.

[@notrealnamenotatall2476]

When the cast list mentions a Not Vanessa, we'll know we're in for it. XD

[@KatKaiju]

@@notrealnamenotatall2476 *dread over Aunt Jane intensifies*

[@Pizzagobbler95]

I'm sure this is something everyone agrees on but still THERE BETTER NOT BE NO ROMANCE BETWEEN MIKE AND VANNESA IN THE FNAF MOVIE it has no place being in there and it won't serve any progress in the plot although Scott would never do that :-) atleast.. I think

[@notrealnamenotatall2476]

I'm about 50/50, 80/20 percent sure Vanessa will be demoted to love interest. XD

[@Pizzagobbler95]

Noooooooooo oooooooooooooooooooooo 😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭

[@damcmadlad2975]

Honestly I really just wish Scott went into a different direction when it came to the books like imagine having three separate horror stories focusing on the employees of the different generations of the fazbear establishments starting with either the fnaf one or two location and then moving on to fnaf three and then sister location like a written version of the fnaf VHS stuff

[@andrew_animation]

I wonder why the Puppet never made an appearance. Maybe it doesn't exist in the books?

[@YourFeelingsSucks]

I wondered that as well.. Puppet played an important role throught the mini-games, FNAF 2 and 6.

[@andrew_animation]

@@YourFeelingsSucks It seems like having Robo-Charlie meet the real Charlie would've been great.

[@YourFeelingsSucks]

@@andrew_animation they will find a common ground, with Cassidy perhaps. Sending Afton in hell.

[@djkalla2973]

I really agree with a lot of points made about the original trilogy’s interpretation of baby as a character and how it backfired which just further proves that this book line story was more confusing and complex than what was needing for Fnaf in the first place and the more modern books further cement this fact with them just revealing new ideas without a proper introduction like the famous quote that is a very important one to follow when crafting any kind of story “show don’t tell” this is super apparent in the books and this is something I’ve been urging in Fnaf as of late. (I hope you enjoyed reading this long winded comment about a book series that is nearly as old as me and to you I wish a very goodnight) ps love the content keep it up (:

[@notrealnamenotatall2476]

I did! ^_^ And thank you, you too! 🫂

[@monobro141]

So I got what they were trying to do which was make William and Elizabeth dark mirrors of Henry and Charlie like Venom to Spiderman in The Raimi Trilogy which is an interesting idea but the problem is that they look act and behave NOTHING like their original counterparts the only hing they have in common are the names and the methods of transforming there is no Springtrap elements to "Springtrap" it's just some weird corny dude in a blood covored SpringBonnie calling himself Springtrap also I'm glad you pointed out how small and scarwny they are "Baby's" like 5,4 and "Springtrap" like 5,11 when they are 7 feet tall in the series Baby has NO Elizabeth to her nor calm moments it's just campy and cray all the time and her spilling out her "backstory and how her life is sad". In the Novel Trilogy my main issue is that these arn't Springtrap and Baby it's Charlie/robot girl vs her fathers's machines and that's really all there is to it sadly

[@rochelleyoung1403]

6:48 I mean…. She would definitely realize that that’s her brother and not her father if she did that.

[@wazzupyuwu]

also, i think i maybe commented about this before in one of your other videos, but one of the reasons the whole "charlie and the cooler charlie" aspect of TFC gets to me so much is the extreme reluctance the book has when it comes to refuting those claims. it shows that almost everyone but White Boy McBland (john) thinks she's better this way, with White Guy 2 constantly thirsting over her, and nothing in the story ever seems to strongly suggest that "no, that's wrong and charlie is fine as is." it just kind of gives me the ick that a 'better' charlie is portrayed as overly sexy, while the real charlie is portrayed as this helpless, sad, constantly regressing person. the implication that you have to have sexual experience or not have trauma in order to be a real adult is really gross, especially when you remember how so much of the fanbase is made up of kids-- something that goes as far back as the first game. there's no way scott cawthon wasn't aware of that, and the decision not to tone the sexualization down or put more thought into how he portrays women is incredibly bizarre to me.

[@anthonysaylor8120]

I guess Scott really threw the Baby out with the FazWater

[@randomericthings7506]

The 2015 “Goosebumps” movie actually made Slappy a sympathetic unredeemable villain. He’s evil and does bad things, but it’s because that was what he written and created to do. “Goosebumps 2: Haunted Halloween” further builds on this idea by showing him trying to do good things only for those things to be bad leading to him ultimately going back to being a full on villain. The relationship between Stine and Slappy from those films is similar to what “The Fourth Closet” was trying and failed to do with Charlie and Elizabeth. Obviously there are differences, which is why I used the word similar. For one thing Slappy was created by Stine, instead of them both being creations of a father-figure. But the idea of them being two sides of the same coin is still there, they even designed Slappy to resemble Jack Black (who played R.L. Stine) to further emphasize that. If one good thing came out of this book it’s making me appreciate those movies more.

[@shumanakazawa]

I was on amazon looking for triangular eva foam tubes when I realized your video just dropped.

[@trinketsphinx3212]

I always thought of the books and the games as separate canons, anyway. Scott Cawthon made that clear. The books will use the same elements and items as the games, but things will be different. In my mind, William took Sammy in the games and Charlie in the books, kind of like alternate realities. It explains the "save him" and so many other issues that I see repeated when theorists discuss the games and the books. The books have some really awesome concepts, like Lonely Freddy and Fetch, and the games have their own amazing moments, like the twist at the end of sister location. I certainly didn't see it coming and loved every minute. I have agreed with every narrative problem you have pointed out in the silver eyes series and this one is no different. I would have loved to see Baby portrayed in the way you described. Fortunately, Scott Cawthon has always encouraged the fans to use their own imaginations to fill in gaps and fix what they don't like, so let's agree she started out that way and William tampered with her to turn her into this hot mess. I like that explanation.

[@magicman3163]

4:50 what the fuck why did Henry give it a medieval claymore

[@llewelynshingler2173]

He somehow knew it would one day need to stab two people and a doll

[@YourFeelingsSucks]

That's a very good question.. it looks very off.

[@projesusantisatan3583]

Honestly, to me, she kind of feels like a anime female, either protagonist or villain that turns protagonist or just straight up average female villain. Like they could’ve went in so many different directions with her, but chose to do the sexual route. It’s like what they did with android 18 from Dragon Ball and I know she’s not as sexualized as somebody like cinder fall, who has really really got in the she’s a hot female that people like to make lewd fanart of. But instead, Scott decided to go with sexual clown because you know clowns are hot.*sarcasm*honestly, I think this is one of the biggest blunders of the series turning baby Charlie Elizabeth, Emily Afton into whatever the fuck she is now.

[@SombraCheeks]

Scott needs to have a real writer work on his stuff. He speedran making the lore so dumb with all his books, would have been amazing to have an actual one canon story with Freddys and not this clusterF of terrible stories possibly related to each other.

[@YourFeelingsSucks]

He should try find a writer who could be like Don Rosa. Don managed to make a re-take of Scrooge McDuck and went in his childhood, how he get his very first dime, without making the character off, but consistent and faithful.

[@Wizardjones69]

I would love a book basead in fnaf 4 story, with the relation between mike and crying child, and then the bite of 83

[@HassenOsnel]

Kira is actually a good writer what the f*ck are you saying?

[@eduardoaguero1220]

Alright finally got to give myself a watch, I mostly held the notion that Novel baby was decent, mainly due to the fact it was the most you could get from Circus Baby at the time, She had plenty of dialouge, which was great, but after that her roles were limited, her gameplay being hollow in the games she was even in, this was back during quarintine times, so that's actually when I sunk back into FNAF, and the Novels specifically, I heard many things I wanted to piece together (I'm a little embarrassed to say Baby and Carlton's altercation peeked my younger mind at the time.) In general Fanon Baby was my go to thing, Writing this tragic tale of someone forced to play the lakey to a vile man, the atrocities that occur, heck I even tried my hand at rewriting TFC because I wanted a Circus Baby redemption arc, I even did what you suggested in the video, I had a little scene where Afton looks at the clown, only to be met with rejection, as she disowns him, and is freed, Hurricane is freed. So in otherwords Novel Baby came with a pair of rosy red glasses. Your points all are valid critisim and I myself share, once again, I feel like there was a lot this clown could do, it was really odd how little she and Charlie connected, and then the whole Fem Fatale thing, which I always just assume came from like, Batman, people compare Harley Quinn to Baby and I mean with how she and Afton are in the book, aside from sorta blood relation same basic dynamic, I guess that doesn't make me a Novel Baby defender, but an apologist. Still if there is one positive thing in her I think you could have pointed out later, it would be at least she had some decent scenes as her own thing, I dunno about you Note, but I still get the chills when I think of the scrapyard scene or some old scene recreations from Nightcove_TheFox, whom I don't know if you are familiar with, but back in the day they did a lot of cosplay stuff, and they still do, a good majority is Glitchtrap though, still, I loved some of those old book recreations, really thrilling. As Always I commend the video, and also that fan art by Koffiecake, precious, hat's off to them!

[@jaxixteen]

Guess you can say She was a circus boob

[@chaosbeam4654]

Afton was obsessive over the Charlie bots, right? What would have been better is that he taught her the events of Charlie’s life over and over until Elizabeth/Baby legitimately believed that she was Charlie. When other characters talk about the previous events, have Elizabeth make small but noticeable mistakes, but do _just_ enough to leave it ambiguous. The breakdown later in the book would actually be of substance as Elizabeth has to realize what exactly her father has done.

[@RATGUTZZ]

This is so wild to me because I've always loved fnaf, but I was never involved with the community really or anything outside of the main games so seeing you talk about the books and how certain characters xyz is just... really interesting to me? I'm not sure how to describe it but I guess knowing the games over the years I sort of filled the potholes myself as a writer and it's just whiplash seeing what a web of insanity the fnaf lore(?) is

[@memeconzoomer7311]

Honestly, i think the books would've been better off if they didn't have to haphazardly tie themselves to the games and vice versa. They could tell really interesting stories on their own without necessarily having their version of William or Baby or The Mimic. Charlie and Henry didn't need to exist in the games, and the same applies to Baby and and Afton in the latter two novels. Other characters could've served their purposes in the narrative and the characterizations are already different enough to warrant them being seperate characters.

[@kateb6699]

It would've been so cool if Baby defeated Mark. They never really resolved his storyline, which is a bummer since he was such a real villain that existed. This was a really enjoyable video! V well-thought out and organized. It is really weird that there's been (at least) 2 side-stories now which use either baby or a baby lookalike (Eleanor) as a "femme fatale", both for all the reasons you mentioned and because Ballora is like, right there. It's a shame the novels turned out the way they did, I enjoyed a lot of the characters in them.

[@TheBeastlySort02]

The "she wears short skirts, i wear combat boots" part was my favorite part of this video 😂😂😂 very funny

[@klaus.sfc01official30]

This is real? Are you seriously telling me that deviant art baby is canon? (Ok without the "scenes" probably) but how do all storys scott writes start good and then turn into a massive dumpsterfire of a trainwreck into a train that crashed into a dumpster and combined both definitions. HOW DOES THAT ALWAYS HAPPEN!?

[@vincentmorris8431]

And not much Baby vs Charlie game wise either as Charlie was essentially just a name drop - how crazy would it be if they had it that Cassette Man had himself a daughter named Samantha and a son named Charles? XD - and they've no interactions during the night sessions. I'll admit the Nightmarionne and Plushbabies in SB probably mean something, but I'll leave it there. We don't know if this Charlie would've had some dynamic with the Afton kids, we aren't even that sure on Elizabeth's with her assumed brothers. I heard someone mention in one of your older videos the thought of Charlie resenting Henry for the bear trap, and maybe combining that with 'Baby opposing William could bring common ground. Also, counting Cassidy and/or Crying Child as Golden Freddy, Elizabeth is probably the one main kid the Puppet hasn't interacted with. This coming from a guy (myself) refusing to read Twisted Ones and Fourth Closet, for the illusion discs on the lore side, and your side from writing perspective. While I have been agreeing to 'Elizabeth wasn't a spoiled brat', most of the art I check out depicts her and Charlie sort of chummy (before or after death), which probably isn't what you see for them either. Small hopes you might do an Elizabeth video...

[@luckysix1015]

Ok so something I thought of while watching this. What if the Puppet had been Charlie’s rival. If I understand it right, Charlie 3 isn’t possessed by her human self, the only supernatural thing is Henry’s proto-agony right, so that spirit still has to go somewhere. So bring in the Puppet, it could be a twisted form of Nature vs Nurture. Charlie 3 is purely Nurture, between Programing, and Henry giving it life. While Puppet is all Nature being a ghost that had to grow up completely alone. since Charlotte prime was a toddler. Don’t get me wrong Puppet would still want to stop Afton, but it would also hold a distain for Charlie 3, as this robotic Faker that stole her life, when “I was right there father, just in that music box.” And Charlie 3 has to deal with the fact this inhuman Sock Monkey technically has just as much if not more of a claim to be the daughter of Henry Emily that she has. Again just thought of it as I was watching so it could certainly use more Time in the Oven, but I thought it was an interesting scenario.

[@MetuendusDominus]

Didn’t expect to go into this video hearing that Charlie is an autist and Circus Baby failed the neuro-divergent skill check. But as someone with the funny brain disorder myself I do appreciate the comic hilarity of it.

[@alpacalover0]

Charlie's also very very tomboyish and Baby walked in in a comically overdressed red dress that she just never takes off, like she's expecting a spontaneous prom to break out in the next room she walks into and she's ready to be Queen.

[@nightmareluvbot]

It boggles my mind that they changed not charlie's baby design because isn't it already established that she uses an illusion disk to look like charlie??? why couldn't she just be normal circus baby with illusion disk 😭❔ fourth closet baby just makes me depressed. she could've been so good. but then again so was game baby so ☹

[@tyraoqvist350]

I feel like the Emily-Afton relationship is DEEPLY wasted in this trilogy

[@Austin_Soares]

I was just listening to a FNAF song when i got the notification, your timing is incredibly immensely impeccable!

[@peanutbuttersandwichlolz]

I swear, your content is amazing

[@Octo445]

They probably could’ve made Baby Charlie not Baby at all. Maybe Elizabeth falls terminally ill and William promises to put her back together in the same way he does with Crying Child, and that’s his motivation for stealing Henry’s 4th Charlie. Admittedly the idea’s a little contrived, but I think it fits better than Baby having to be Baby while also being evil Charlie. Both deaths and possessions are different in the trilogy, with Henry killing himself with a robot, William being thrown in a furnace, and Golden Freddy being possessed by someone entirely different, so I don’t see why Elizabeth can’t have a different death and possession

[@Quaxophone]

*huff.. puff * sorry I’m late, traffic was heavy on the way here! I haven’t gotten a chance to read the books but every time I hear anything about them I’m left in awe of how different they are to their source material, which I partly find equal parts amusing and disappointing. I imagine reading the books for myself might help me see the bigger picture but in the meantime your videos have been super helpful!

[@killerb359]

I have never been this early , but i always look forward to your videos, im constantly waiting for a new one, i love hearing your side of things because they actually sound good

[@chuckles2364]

I was confused as to what you meant at the start of the video as half of the video was your usual content, then the other half started and I throughly enjoyed it, the sleepless dave song was a good addition.

[@towertooth456]

Never expected to hear some Rugrats ps1 OST 😂 Great video!

[@Guyfrom2001]

Best channel to listen to during work 👌👌👌

[@Phosypha]

"By the way, yeah I'm going there." "God I can't believe I went there" is *the* statement of all time

[@CRandyGamble]

Loved the video, great points! Always looking forward to more!

[@Goober1342]

I was just browsing youtube when I saw you dropped another video. Edit: OMG, SORRY FOR MY GRAMMAR MISTAKES

[@RevengeoftheBallen831]

With 2/3 of the most popular books being absolute messes, and the TFTPP and Frights books being controversial, sometimes I wonder if we, the fans, do more of the heavy lifting in terms of making the characters interesting. I hear a lot of people say that Scott isn’t a good writer, with the popularity coming from initial hype, and I wonder how much of that is true, if it even is true at all.

[@thelittleredhairedgirlfrom6527]

Yeah it’s 100% the fans that have kept this franchise alive after FNAF 4. The first four games were well written because there wasn’t much written at all. There’s a killer going around offing kids at a children’s party place and now all the animatronics are haunted and violent. That’s it, that’s all there needed to be. And then along came Sister Location and Scott replaced subtly with baiting and story with confusing lore.

[@bonnieplushtuber5517]

“It treats her as an item” yeah because she’s a woma-

[@kestrelliddel6962]

I love these videos because I have genuinely no clue what there about. I know a little bit of lore from a few videos here and there, but it’s not enough to actually follow along. (If I had a nickel for every time I found a series that had interesting ideas and stories but not the greatest writer, I’d have two nickels, which is weird that it’s happened twice).

[@Mike14264]

Ah, now we can delve deep into one of the best characters in this franchise with the most misused and missed potential! I was honestly waiting for this one!

[@jennifergriel861]

I wish baby was done better because I like her in concept so much. All the books are really ruining this series.

[@GanonGhidorah]

So i think it's pretty much common-belief at this point that Scott had little-to-nothing to do with with the Trilogy of Books. He provided the franchise brand and concept for name recognition, and it was the other writers who basically did _whatever the hell they wanted._ So while it's clear that whoever wrote the stuff involving Charlie, Baby/Emily and everything had some _serious_ issues that they were working through...The core problem here I think has to do with the identity. See, I actually think that most everything involving Charlie being reincarnated from one robot body to the next, only to have her final adult body stolen, and then for her nemesis to end-up in said-body instead, actually is a fascinating story, and had _great potential._ But the problem really comes down to the fact that, _"It's just not Fnaf."_ These concepts sound really cool if they were used for their own original story that didn't involve Child-Themed Pizza Restaurants. But it feels like the franchise is held-back by that identity, so the more it grows, the more it tries to move away from it. Because when you get down to it, what facet of Freddy's actually came into play during either the Twisted Ones or the Fourth Closet? At that point, the animatronics were basically just free-range robots that could do or pop-up anywhere. And then there's this stuff with Charlie and Emily - and Charlie's Body is retconned into being "Circus Baby." When you put it into the context of Five Nights at Freddy's, it sounds like _poorly written fanfiction,_ and loses all of it's appeal for its own idea. This story is trying to fit a square block into a round hole and call it Fnaf. It just doesn't work, because everything that is "Fnaf" at this point, is just window-dressing. It's actually a shame, because this story could've had a lot more potential if the writers took a chance and published it themselves. But instead, they used a tried and tested brand like Fnaf as a platform to get attention and guaranteed the story would reach an audience.

[@alpacalover0]

Basically everything that's not the original games is only given major plot points by Scott and he lets whoever is doing something fill in the gaps with carte blanche. He's believed to have written the Epilogues of the Tales books but there's nothing to suggest that he *ever* wrote anything else, especially with how weirdly different everything feels compared to his "many little hints pointing to one direction" writing style in the games while the Novels are primarily straightforward albeit strange. Scott basically just made the Clickteam games' PC versions and delegated everything else to whoever had a pulse on the team. Even Ballora's iconic song she sings was made up by the voice actor and has no lore relevance despite all the theories resting upon it as a clue.

[@alpacalover0]

@@BluewindGaming Honestly this whole channel seems to cultivate a very out there and toxic approach to FNAF from what I've seen of it altogether so I just avoid it despite having commented on this video. People just want to reduce everything to "I'm good you're bad" tribalism and it's just shameful.

[@LEFTYXD]

Ik I don't comment on ur vids much but I just wanna say that your one of my favorite fnaf KZbinrs keep doing what your doing take breaks if you need and stay hydrated! ❤

[@williammerwin1850]

Great to be here early for one of your vids!

[@justsomegamer5932]

The Fourth Closet really turned Charlie from a good to a bad character. Plus they tragically misused FNAF's main villain - Circus Baby. Great vid!!❤❤❤