The Forever War by Joe Haldeman | BOOK REVIEW

[@JasonFuhrman]

TENCH-HUT! Let me know if you've read The Forever War or would like to read it OR any other great sci-fi recommendations you have.

[@chaysehalvorson1426]

Great review! Love the Hurt Locker comparison - both stories do a great job establishing the struggles of reintegrating into civilian life post-deployment, and I really appreciated how Haldeman used time dilation to illustrate this feeling of alienation. One of my favorite uses of time travel in sci fi.

[@JasonFuhrman]

Thanks for the recommendation! Yeah it's a great one on multiple levels. Far more complex than I thought it would be from a commentary standpoint.

[@calebfeliciano2099]

I found your channel to find reviews on Between Two Fires, by Christopher Buehlman (your review was great), and now this review is confirming to me that I need to get into Sci-Fi. Glad I found you!

[@JasonFuhrman]

thanks for watching! Yes, you DO need to get into sci-fi. It's such a great genre with so many options depending on what you're into. I tend to prefer more near-future sci-fi, but it's good to try new things from time to time, like this book.

[@viewergreg]

When I was a kid my Dad worked in the clinical lab at the University of MD's Shock Trauma Center in Baltimore, and one of his co-workers was Joe Haldeman's brother Jack. He was also a SF author in his own right, though not as famous as his younger brother.

[@JasonFuhrman]

Still a cool story :)

[@zachtonight75]

This reminded me of "The Short-Timers", which inspired the movie "Full Metal Jacket." I listened to the audiobook on KZbin, including his sequel "The Phantom Blooper", and it helped encourage me to get through the day.

[@JasonFuhrman]

Interesting, I'll have to check that out. Funny you mention Full Metal Jacket. Editing the review inspired me to look up some clips of it today.

[@earlpipe9713]

@@JasonFuhrman Oh, you have to read it sometime. It's not only a very well written, pretty fast read, and the darkest, most visceral war novel I've read, it can also lead one into wanting to find out about it's author, Gus Hasford, and the very interesting, sometimes amusing, bittersweet tragedy that was his post Vietnam War life and writing career.

[@earlpipe9713]

Part of that writing career is the fact that the Short-Timer's has been out of print since way back, despite the popularity of Full Metal Jacket, and partly due to a huge feud he got in with Stanley Kubrick. PDFs of it can be found online for free easily though, as well as the very good audiobook here on KZbin

[@JasonFuhrman]

@@earlpipe9713 sounds great!

[@JasonFuhrman]

@@earlpipe9713 I found the same challenge with the other recommendation "We All Died at Breakaway Station." Paperbacks were over $50 but I found a digital copy online fortunately. I will dig around and also check out that audiobook. Thanaks!

[@rustomkanishka]

Really good review. I'd read this book due to a US army veteran's recommendation and asked me to read Starship Troopers before that. (Not from that part of the world, not even close) Forever war first off is realistic in the sense of how he never really gets home. There are some bizarre ideas about sexuality and I don't care for them, but whatever. It's also got the humility of experience. When the man sees society changing so much, at some point he requests going back to war, because war he can understand. Even the war's conclusion is very iffy, making you wonder why they fought in the first place. Lastly, I'd say that this book has been compared to Starship Troopers many times, and is definitely the better book. Starship troopers is 3 civics lectures, not much fighting or anything else.

[@TheJBerg]

Even the fighting in ST is to highlight the civics lessons that come before or after. It's still a good, edifying read.

[@rustomkanishka]

Nah, i had enough civics lectures in college. Heinlien was a trained naval officer but never saw combat. He thought about war as being beautiful in some way, and it isn't. He's more or less into worshipping the military. If he was an ordinary bloke today he'd be the kind sharing cringe inducing memes about standing for the flag or whatever. His political philosophy isn't worth the paper it's printed on. He is popular with idiots because of his shitty takes. In the book he suggests that the end of spanking caused an almost apocalypse and resulted in the new state. This is kinda similar to millennials not owning houses because of avocado toast. Makes total sense if you're an idiot. The very idea that only servicemen should have the right to vote creates an aristocracy. This system is quite untenable if you're not a service member. Even today, plenty of politicians who are veterans tend to focus so heavily on service, which is usually proved by showing you a picture in battle uniform in a warzone, despite most of them being desk jockeys. If you want US examples, Pete Buttigieg and Ron Desantis or even President Bush Jr are good examples. They served, sure. Buttigieg helped disrupt finance networks and described drove a truck into Kabul 100 times, Desantis was really good at torturing people at GITMO, and Bush jr managed to stay sober enough to not crash. Hell, president LBJ went for one single joyride in a bomber and demanded a medal for it, which he got- none of the rest of the crew did. They do act like grizzled war vets who went door to door clearing houses in Mosul or whatever. The average bloke would sign up and if he's really unlucky go through the meatgrinder, while privileged folk would call uncle general xyz and ride some more desks. You also apparently need to serve if you want to have kids. Western democracies don't have enough babies being born either way. I could go on, but the gist is, his political philosophy is rubbish. Also, I get doing the philosophy once. Thrice? Seriously? The only worse writing I can think of is the 300 page long rant/monologue in Atlas Shrugged. But Atlas Shrugged can be shat upon for many reasons, not just bad writing. I'd wipe my arse with atlas shrugged but I'm civilised and use a bum gun for personal hygiene. The use of power armour is why the book did stand out. But it really needed more fighting.

[@JasonFuhrman]

Thanks! And thanks for the insight. I haven't read Starship Troopers, so I'm glad to hear I read the good one first.

[@Canonfudder]

I think going into sifi and expecting.. the arc, the character changing growing, traditional novel style - is setting yourself up to be forever disappointed and failing. SciFi is the exploration of ideas. The characters are little more then steroe-type testtubes to hold against a idea. Societies themselves just a expression of the outcome. I have read, so many lousy novels by formerly good scifi writers, trying to mimicry and incooperate some character novella. Instead of taking ideas to the max and beyond, testing them with paper-cutouts. And i have learned to loath the critics, pushing a genre into a direction- because it has to be "real literature" to be taken serious by the big brother. Meanwhile- some manage to write real literature "All humans are mortal" / "A memory called empire" / "Der letzte seiner Art" /"The Dispossesed", dissecting people and societies and others get to write great SciFi like the "Three Body Problem" dissecting ideas and concepts, without ever touching the individual. And thats fine. I deeply disrespect critics that can not evaluate the later kind of book, due to a lack of core-fantasy of there own, where they can imagine up some side-characters, taking the idea for a spin. The critics deficits does ot make a book good or bad!

[@JasonFuhrman]

I wasn't sure what to expect in the characterization realm. I've read a lot of sci-fi and would argue that it's entirely possible to have good characterization in the genre. It just depends on what you're looking for. I tend to prefer near sci-fi stories, Kazuo Ishiguro's two novels Never Let Me Go and Klara and the Sun both have fantastic characterization, and it only makes the idea the writer is exploring more powerful when tied to someone who feels real, someone we can empathize with. That will only make your investment, and perhaps epiphany, of how the idea affects humanity by seeing it through the lens of the human condition. Films like Ex Machina by Alex Garland is another great example. Exploring the idea of AI in regards to them being indistinguishable allowed it to really hit home harder tying it to character. I respect what Haldeman did here, in keeping the POV character detached from the events, as I mentioned in the review. It's a different take, and one that speaks volumes with what this novel is trying to achieve. I could be completely wrong, however, but I can't imagine Haldeman is that careless.

[@TH3F4LC0Nx]

I've thought about reading this book so many times over the years, but I never have for some reason. I may have to pick it up sometime though since you've given it such an endorsement. I'm kinda curious to see how I'd jive with it now. :)

[@JasonFuhrman]

You should. It's a quick read, and I'm curious what your take would be. I knew very little going into it, and I think that was a good decision.

[@jeffreyhancock4096]

Great novel. I recommend you ewd "We All Died At Breakaway Station" sorry xant remember the name of the author.

[@JasonFuhrman]

Thanks for the recommendation! I'll look into it

[@ancienttartan3509]

My take on the book is different. I don't believe it is an anti-war book. I believe it is an anti-decayed-society book, describing a society that takes its military for granted. I read this book on the very last deployment I went on. Every time I came home from a deployment, American society seemed more in decline, especially during the Obama years. I would come home and not recognize my own country, and I think that is a nuanced reason why some people in the military just want to go back to fighting. They don't want to fight for anything in particular. They just want to get away from home and get paid well. It's better to be on the soil of a country you're fighting and that you hate, rather than to be home where you're just a forgotten person. Seasoned military members of all branches essentially become mercenaries instead of patriots eventually over the course of their careers. Their hearts change. I know mine did. At the end of my career, I just did it for the money. My love and my oath to the Constitution never faded, but my love for our society soured to the point where I can't converse with anyone. The military typically gets most of its recruits from the conservative, rural south. Yet society increasingly mocks and shits on the south's way of life. Thus, I'm not sure how a returning military member is supposed to feel appreciated.

[@JasonFuhrman]

Thanks for your insight! Knowing Haldeman wrote this based on his experience in Vietnam, it's great to get another soldier's perspective. Maybe the anti-war aspect of it is more of what you said, how it changes the individual. Similar to the grocery store scene from The Hurt Locker.

[@someokiedude9549]

Sounds kind of like a flat experience from what you're saying.

[@JasonFuhrman]

It depends on what you're looking for. I enjoyed it quite a bit overall. I just had to adjust my expectations with characterization.