The Forgotten BRILLIANCE of Lorwyn | A Passionate Defence

[@Spice8Rack]

Hope you enjoyed the video. Do feel free to get the exclusive NordVPN deal here: nordvpn.com/spice8rack. It’s risk free with Nord’s 30 day money-back guarantee!

[@carlosalbuquerque22]

Preach! I myself came up with a few ideas for a return to Lorwyn/Shadowmor: - A line in the books implies there's questioning about which history is real. Obviously focusing on this. - Have the Nobilis of War as the main villain and written like Ruber from Quest for Camelot.

[@exksalted]

get the bagggg get the monnneyyy babbbeyyyy

[@carter3329]

No hacker can "Retrace" your steps if you change your location to Finland!

[@gringgles2633]

tribal spells wher the shit game needs more but wotc is allergic to fun, and would rather people spend $1000 on randomized proxies.... also lorwyn gave us one of the best meta decks with a card called scapeshift

[@daveinspiration7333]

Put Nature's Chosen in your Gaddock Teeg deck...Your welcome.

[@TolarianCommunityCollege]

Mom, can we stop and get some return to Lorwyn? Mom: We have Return To Lorwyn at home. Return To Lorwyn At Home = Wilds of Eldraine

[@Spice8Rack]

Stop, stop it hurts too MUCH!

[@STAVROS1801]

@@Spice8Rack we deserve better than this! I love Lorwyn/Shadowmoor do much, it hurts that I missed all of it!!! I yearn for the Whimsyshire

[@Thimbrethil]

[@TheGloriousLobsterEmperor]

Dammit I *liked* Eldraine :(

[@C._Bradford]

I'm literally dying over here 😭

[@Notturna.]

Watched with my partner. I sometimes play magic with him and only for the last couple of years. Now I'm deeply and passionately nostalgic for a set I never played belonging to a game I rarely play. Curse you lengthy niche essays, you get me every time.

[@adamgorsky8422]

I'm a year late but it looks like we're going back to Lorwyn in 2025!

[@Victorinya_Valentine]

God I cannot wait to immediately binge this and then periodically watch it again every few months in the future.

[@Spice8Rack]

PERFECT! This is EXACTLY how I want my content consumed

[@Warforged117]

I'm glad to hear there is another person who consumes Spice's content like this, aha

[@dreamsalongthepath7377]

Honestly that’s what I do with the yawgmoth video.

[@ms.aelanwyr.ilaicos]

@@dreamsalongthepath7377 The Yawgmoth vid should be playing on a loop in a fine art museum somewhere.

[@jacobcrabtree1857]

Are you….. me?

[@vladplasmius2854]

Your thoughts on Lorwyn, specifically when it came to depicting a plane's inhabitants interacting, especially sans violence on occasion, are spot on. It made Lorwyn seem vital and alive, and not just a series of solitary creatures posing for the camera.

[@731freeman]

It sounds like you have a point, but it doesn’t come across well because of your use of commas within commas. Can you try explaining again without the effort of trying to sound articulate?

[@drahoop]

@@731freeman He used one unnecessary comma, but since you had difficulty understanding allow me to simplify it down for you. "I thought you hit the nail on the head when describing Lorwyn! Why especially when you were talkin about how the art depicted people interacting even outside of a violent interaction? HoooWEE! It's the lil' things like that, which make it feel like it's a rip roarin livin thing, instead of a bunch of fakers standin round waitin for their photos to get taken."

[@731freeman]

@@drahoop all you accomplished was telling me I’m right while trying to sound like I’m wrong. Funny.

[@scottganiere523]

Great set to get beat by a tree 🌳 Dorian

[@Michael-bn1oi]

@@731freeman sorry you had such a hard time understanding the OP. Must really be difficult for you on the internet if simple grammatical errors make you unable to comprehend a comment. No one needs your lecture on how to not make friends.

[@cjw2171]

I played the UK zoom game and the first thing I found was a place called 'Newton by Toft', with the next village over called 'Toft Next Newton' and the other next village over called 'Newtoft'. Outstanding.

[@solDelta]

Just played it and found Heckington, just down the road from Swineshead. Love it.

[@rhythmandblues_alibi]

Imagine living in Dimsdale, Biddulph or Knypersley. 😅 What a great game!

[@Canahedo]

This video perfectly highlights what was lost in the switch to single sets: change. To see a setting change from one set to the next, to be able to tell stories without needing to drop the beginning, middle, and end all in one. I didn't start playing until around WAR, but I was aware of Magic before then and one of my greatest "tiny regrets" is that I never got to experience these sets and stories as they were happening. Great job Spice!

[@cascaozymandius9911]

2 hours of Lorwyn were exactly what I wanted right now

[@Spice8Rack]

2 hours 13 even!

[@ashra8281]

No 2:13 is too long. Going to have to stop watching at 2 hours. Sorry spice

[@blueheartorangeheart3768]

If you watch the video at 1.25x speed you can get through it in just an hour and 46 minutes, though some may find that to be 14 minutes too short

[@ashra8281]

@@blueheartorangeheart3768 yeah i need that extra 14 minutes

[@rayzeckz4573]

Its Lorwyn time!

[@Jason-ue7gi]

I really love that the fey being the same in both planes makes them seem villainous and scary in Lorwyn but cute and quirky in Shadowmoor. It's good writing!

[@GulliasTurtle]

Lorwyn was the first set where I went to my local game store and drafted. I was 13. I opened a Garruk Wildspeaker p1p1 and didn't know what a planeswalker was so I passed it. The guy sitting next to me told the table I had done that and they all made fun of me for being stupid until I left the store in tears. That's the only thing I can think of when I think of Lorwyn.

[@Fluffkitscripts]

Wow, what a bunch of basement trolls. I’m sorry they did that to you. Magic is better with better people.

[@rhythmandblues_alibi]

That's so awful. People really suck sometimes.

[@Oxygen1004]

I did this more recently but with a diabolic intent in one of my first drafts. Thankfully I didn't get the reception that you did and they explained to me why I should have looked over the pack instead of taking the first card that happen to work with what I was doing

[@dextervepps8794]

The minute the daybound night bound mechanic was introduced, I wanted lorwyn to be the next set.

[@zachall1573]

The only problem is that the mechanic kinda sucked... From a gameplay perspective.

[@PhoenicopterusR]

We also have multi-character cards that have both their creature types, which kinda solves the whole issue of the tribal mechanics not meshing well with each other. In addition to the changeling and other cross-tribe abilities, I should clarify.

[@theautisticguitarist7560]

​@@zachall1573it's current incarnation only works in arena or online, where neither player needs to track day and night because the computer does it. I'd argue that making it entirely manual would fix it.

[@benjaminwende7262]

I play on MTGA and it feels awful to play, it's just about how rarely it triggers.@@theautisticguitarist7560

[@Bashman20]

​@@zachall1573 I think they still need to do a transform kind of mechanic

[@SonsOfSauron]

I think the implementation of giants is pretty interesting from a worldbuilding perspective. They're pretty all over the place and lack a general unifying theme like you observed, but I think this emphasizes their individualism and the fact giants rarely even interact with each other. Some of course do for mechanical purposes, but giants are generally content to just be left alone.

[@bobthetitan1]

They also have individual synergies with the various other factions, adding to this sort of wandering hermit aesthetic by helping or harming those around them without any particular rhyme or reason. If the elves are foils to the whimsy of the plane, the giants are foils to its unity.

[@starmanda88]

Your unbridled joy when talking about treefolk gender is why I love you so much. This was a wonderful walk through of my most treasured set ever. Nothing does it for me like Lorwyn does. You covered it perfectly

[@jacobdelaney9465]

I disagree pretty strongly with you on giants. Consider as a starting point that these 8 creature types were all they had to work with in set design. As they said: no dragons, no krakens, no demons. Giants are the personified natural disaster of lorywn. And as such, they embody at their core the individualism of Red. The mess of contradictions you describe all center around their profound disparity to the world around them. Some are isolationist, some are hedonist, some are disciplined and focused, some cooperate with other races, others don't. With size comes the freedom from societal restriction, the freedom to choose to pursue whatever it is they wish. That's it, that's the thread that ties them together. As a foil to the other, somewhat more unified races, the sheer might of giants precludes them from needing society at all. And from that freedom comes a lot of largely accidental collateral damage. Much like a dragon, a demon, or a kraken, the giants of Lorwyn serve an important purpose as a narrative weight which displaces things. They are an element of the setting more than a participant, crashing through stories with all the grace and elegance of Brian Stoutarm. Thank you for coming to my ted talk.

[@willofbob]

That being said, I think you could make a case that Giants could have had a unified mechanical identity based around only having a couple on the board and making them massively disruptive to the board state. Make Giant Ramp a thing, where you summon a giant with all the weight of summoning an earthquake or a hurricane. They're out of place and disrupt the world around them with their mere presence, design with that in mind.

[@danielcornwall1585]

I think WotC tried to emphasise their big impact individually with things like Borderland Behemoth, where even ONE more giant makes it into a wrecking ball. So their theme was "tribal, but you don't need the big numbers, cause each dude is the equivalent of big numbers"

[@whatdothlife4660]

Damn, well said. I've always loved Giants and Beasts in Magic.

[@normanicole4714]

My Giant deck at that time was off the hook. Use changeling magic to make all my creatures giants then deal damage equal to the number of giants to all no giant creatures. I've beaten my Sliver deck with my giants.

[@dancingmathusalem5451]

I agree, giants are basically the archetype of the wandering stranger, someone incredibly dangerous who's equally as likely to help as they are to harm you, just because they can

[@RazgrizAce67]

1:56:51 All 5 hideaway lands from Lorwyn have giant mono-colored creature counter-parts in Shadowmoor. Cool thing I hadn't noticed before.

[@sillinator]

Hey spice I’m not sure if you knew this but every basic land in Lorwyn forms a 2-card panorama with another basic land by the same artist! Same goes for Shadowmoor, which is just something I thought was cool worldbuilding! (Also I love panoramas)

[@dawildbear]

Wait so it's like, full art but side wides. Now I'm thinking with portals.

[@eronth]

Honestly, the interconnectedness of all the creature types and colors and whatever was part of what made Lorwyn/Shadowmoor so freaking fun. I don't consider that a downside, I consider it a big plus.

[@dusk6159]

Especially with the Shadowmoor factor and switches on top

[@golgariguy]

Fun fact by the way, Mosswort Bridge and Mossbridge Troll are not the only land/creature pair in Lorwyn/Shadowmoor: Spinerock Knoll -> Knollspine Dragon Shelldock Isle -> Isleback Spawn Windbrisk Heights -> Windbrisk Raptor Howltooth Hollow -> Hollowborn Barghest

[@wheazz]

It should be noted that these lands are showing where those creatures are "hibernating". This is where the non-Lorwyn creatures live; not in some abstract plane. Great call-out!

[@gabrieldecock5050]

In a simple way of putting it: Lorwyn is the M:TG equivalent of a British version of a Ghibli movie.

[@SagazLiam]

I loved Lorwyn and Shadowmoor. No other plane of magic has made me feel as enchanted as that ever changing plane. I was very young back then, and I still have all the cards from the decks and boosters I opened from that edition. I really hope one day WotC will give us a return, even if it wasn't great for them or the public and has been substituted by Eldraine. Thanks for this video

[@MasterDoctorBenji]

The thing I fear with the return is not capturing the feel. Like even just the card frame has a unique feel to me. All my Llorwyn cards look sun damaged. So there is a selfish, nostalgic, part of me that knows I won't feel the same and there for don't want to see it. Obviously let's fucking go back though.

[@everythingmetal9400]

Shadowmoor is my all time favorite magic set.

[@nathanmontgomery7865]

Hail from Lorwyn the Ever Changing 'Plane.

[@Firevine]

> I really hope one day WotC will give us a return No. No no no no no. For the love of God. Lorwyn block is amazing. WotC in their current state would absolutely miss the point and destroy everything great about it and make it just another generic forgettable set. Let's just leave it over there, on the shelf, being one of the best things they ever did, and just _leave it alone_

[@everythingmetal9400]

@@Firevine kind of the reason why I'm worried about how they're going to treat the new phyrexian sets were getting. On the one hand I'm very happy that we're going back and the other hand I'm thinking how is wizards going to screw this up. And yes I don't ever want them returning to Shadowmoor Lorwyn eveningtide in morningtide. That era of magic in my opinion was perfect.

[@orzhov12]

The same way Spice feels about Lorwyn is how I feel about Kamigawa. I was hesitant about Neon Dynasty at first, but once the set came out, it just solidified my love for Kamigawa even more! Neon is one of my top five favorite sets of all time and retained the core aspects of Kamigawa that kept it near and dear to me for 16 years. Hopefully Spice gets to experience the same thing for Lorwyn. 🥺🙏

[@800mls]

The way you feel about Lorwyn is how Ive felt about Alara for years. I didnt start playing until Hour/Ixalan yet I had this fascination with Alara block and always wanted the story to go back there.

[@ZakanaHachihaCBC]

Well it’s a good thing you were able to play Streets! I was playing in Zendikar so i got to see some Alara and it’s, very similar

[@Yxoque]

I'd love a return to Alara. I'd even be really happy with an Alara D&D-book. (Which would probably have been bettes than the Strixhaven one.)

[@The5lacker]

Honestly I have kinda the opposite deal with Alara. That was the set that was releasing right when I started playing, so it was one of my first experiences with Magic and I loved it (alongside a pack of Morningtide, funnily enough). But the more Magic I've played and the more worlds we've visited, the more I kinda... don't care for Alara? It's a very synthetic plane, and post-merge I don't actually know what you could do on the plane that would have interesting stakes. Esper is still *gorgeous* though, so if we do return I won't necessarily complain. But I'd much rather have Alara references in supplemental sets than a full Return to Alara I think.

[@Yxoque]

@@The5lacker Alara is very much a bottom-up set but the worldbuilding is far from sterile. Conflux and Alara Reborn show what direction a return could look like and in terms of narrative and flavor I don't think it'd be too hard. Mechanically it's probably harder because you'd probably need to make it a fully gold set while still balancing the Shards' identity. I'd probably start from the ideas of the Shards trying to maintain their uniqueness while adapting to the influence and potential of new magic. At the same time you'd have those "outsiders" from Alara Reborn developing into actual factions.

[@Fireslingerpirate]

@@Yxoque I really doubt the mechanics would be hard to do. Khans of Tarkir is one of the best sets of all time for limited in large part because the mechanics represent the shards so well. As long as WotC takes the right approach, it really isnt that hard to create a good tri-color based set.

[@anyazxr]

Here in 2024. Bloomburrow seems like the true spiritual successor to Lorwyn now. Great video spice!

[@teaganrichichi]

All of the hideaway lands have big rare creature versions, Howltooth Hollow into Hollowborn Barghest, Shelldock Isle into Isleback Spawn, and Windbrisk Heights into Windbrisk Raptor. All of these, the Bridge and the Knoll included, synergize with the other version.

[@jasonbolding3481]

Lorwyn-shadormoor has soo many mirror cards like that

[@grompdiff5574]

I feel like the reason that the giants of Lorwyn don’t really have a general theme is because every other tribe probably has incredibly differing opinions on them, giants have the fewest creatures out of all the tribes to show how few of them actually exist in the world of lorwyn, and they differ so much in abilities and synergies because it seems like they don’t interact with other giants much, you never really see more than 1 or two on a card. In my opinion they are the middle ground tribe that either molds to fit the world around them like with cloud goat ranger, or shapes the world around them like with thunder cloud shaman.

[@pr0fess0rbadass]

Wow that bit about neon dynasty reflecting the loneliness of modern day japanese society actually made me sad.

[@RomanvonUngernSternbergnrmfvus]

On the bright side though I’ll never need to come up with a dnd starting town name again

[@JM64]

Well it applies to the alienation inherent to the capitalist system as a whole. But yes Japan is (arguably) the most drastic case of this.

[@charliebanks8979]

As somebody who was 15/16 and (growing up in Bath, oddly enough) remembers this set and the pre-release of Eventide very, very vididly, thinking my Slippery Boggle foil was THE shit. This video was fantastic, thank you so so so much for this high quality content - it really got me on so many levels.

[@zephyroswest3823]

I think one of the huge issues with storytelling in recent magic sets is the reduction and eventual removal of blocks; ikoria and eldraine could have had more meaningful and impactful stories with better interactions and fleshed out characters, but they only had one set to tell a story *and* worldbuild *and* be a good set mechanically. The now ever-present commander set tie-ins help with worldbuilding and flavor, but that isn't a replacement for blocks to me, as most of the commander sets don't touch the main story of the set they're based on. There have been some exceptions to the rule of one set 'blocks', like the recent return to Innistrad being a two set block and it was able to tell a more comprehensive and cohesive story than Strixhaven or New Capenna or Neon Dynasty ever could (A valid counterpoint is that Midnight Hunt/Crimson Vow didn't have to 'try' when it came to worldbuilding, as is was the third visit to the plane, but my counter-counterpoint is that for a world that was devastated by the Church of Avacyn's loss and Emrakul's incursion, they seem to have settled back to a status quo pretty easily, with the Church still being corrupt, the necromancers are still necromancing, and the werewolves are back to being seen as strictly evil, regardless of the efforts of Arlinn Kord or the wolfir project).

[@christopherb501]

Could have at least been helped by focusing on parts of the Provinces we haven't seen yet, that might not have been as directly affected by the social changes if still blighted by the Travails. Still waiting to learn what lies beyond the Nibelgost...

[@jasonbolding3481]

As a set did morningtide do much to lorywn story?

[@christopherb501]

@@jasonbolding3481 None of the Lor/Sha sets depicted much of the story, beyond the large broadstrokes. No signs of Ashling questing for a greater elemental only to consume it, no sign of the sapling getting taken out (RIP), no evidence of just how influential Maralen was, no reference to the Crest of Wanderwine and the fact it kept Brigid the same thru the Aurora, etc. It was surprising that we got the individual names of the Vendilion Clique depicted on cards at all (Maralen of the Mornsong & Groundling Pouncer).

[@AbsolXGuardian]

I stopped playing magic when Kaladesh started, but I've been vaguely following the progression based on what sponsorship are happening and always felt like things were going pretty fast. Now that I've gotten back into the lore, I was shocked to discover all these new planes only got one set. I agree with you that it hurts their storytelling and worldbuilding potential. I don't even know why wizards would make such a decision. Surely it takes less resources to make a new set when you don't have to create a new plane? Do sets that aren't the first ones in a block not sell as well?

[@zephyroswest3823]

@@AbsolXGuardian It's not that sequels don't sell as well (which is generally true), but it's more to the fact that *new* stuff sells Really good. New solo sets mean new players feel less intimidated by the story. It's all in service of profit, not progress. That being said, I am mostly fine with this new direction, if only for the sake of making MtG more mainstream. It's a good game and I want more people to play it. I just hate getting invested into stories that the company doesn't care about.

[@Codeman1930]

Please do more analysis of the old planes and the philosophy behind their design. I can’t express how much this kind of project is appreciated by a newcomer like me who only got his start with Magic sets during Kaldheim.

[@dawildbear]

Honestly, this is kinda what I thought magics lore was for a long time, like we hop from plane to plane seeing what it's about and maybe we see some of them planeswalkers, maybe not. So imagine my surprise when I actually looked up some lore. I think I'd prefer it if magic focused more on the planes generally. Also fairies are the best, most cool dimir people, fight me.

[@jamesgaston2745]

Lorwyn just felt like a happy middle between the old feel of original MtG and the newer power that was the Time Spiral block. It was fun, just good and sensible fun.

[@wytzevanderveer6351]

This came at a weirdly perfect time for me. I just finished a bunch of quick drafts in MTG Arena and I'm burnt out on drafting but still want to engage with magic. Enter this video Haven't watched a single second yet but big thanks

[@Spice8Rack]

I hope it doesn't disappoint :D

[@wytzevanderveer6351]

@@Spice8Rack It's fantastic thank you

[@matmoth1]

I began playing magic around the time time spiral was a thing. It was great and all, but Lorwyn was the first block of sets that really got me into playing and loving magic. To this day the classic tribes of magic as depicted in Lorwyn are what I first remember when I think of the tribes themselves. I absolutely love this set and to see a deep and teared video on it made me incredibly happy. Thank you so much for taking me on this nostalgic ride, Spice :)

[@pyro2708]

Lorwyn's aesthetic somenow fits perfectly with the modern card frame, no other set comes even close.

[@knightofthewind1000]

Hey Spice, Rhystic studies doesn't have a trademark on comparing Magic to paintings and other art pieces in a more typically academic style, that whole Lorwyn/Goya bit was very interesting and as someone who hadn't heard of his works before, I appreciated getting introduced! I get it was probably done with a mostly sarcastic tone, but as is often the case when people use self deprecating humour I find it hard to tell the line between "just kidding" and "I actually feel this way" 😅 Just saying, I'd hate to miss out on more artistic comparisons and opportunities to get exposed to artists and artworks I'm unfamiliar that you might be able to offer, just because it isn't NFL corn meme.

[@cassie5248]

I think one of the reasons why some tribes got defined so uniquely, like the elves and the goblins, is the fact that they weren't just designing Lorwyn but also Shadowmoor, and they needed those worlds to be opposites. They needed to clearly be able to differentiate the tribes on each world while still feeling like that tribe overall, so they had to push in new directions to get there

[@little_isalina]

Lorwyn is a set that is dear to me. It reminds me so much of one of my special interests: the Dark Crystal, also a whimsical fantasy world devoid of humans and the usual flavors of fantasy races, and inspired by celtic folklore with a dark undercurrent to it. Both of these settings are of a kind that there just isnt enough of out there.

[@Motleydoll123]

Kind of agree. Imagine a second trip to lorewyn being one where there has been a subtle or noticeable shift between its usual bright and happy form and it's more shadowy otherside. Maybe induced by the presence of a rogue planeswalker who attempts to 'fix' the strange imbalance within the plane only for it to go catastrophic wrong, leading into a kind of bleeding effect where the darker and lighter sides of the plains form start to mix with consequences that affect its inhabitants and the visitors, leading to new heroes within lorewyn and its shadowy darkside needing to rise up combat the chaos brought about by meddling hands. Even after resolving the situation, twilight pockets still persist where a blend of both sides of lorewyn exist simultaneously, ensuring even after the balance is fixed, neither side is completely unaware of the other. As for who plays antagonist to this story, I would go with a character who would be normally heroic but who's potential lack of understanding of the plane and its dual nature leads to disaster. Like they enjoy lorewyn, have it suddenly flip to its darker side, think it has been corrupted or tainted by evil, and try to force it back to lorewyn while it's in its darker form. The resultant cascade fucks the balance, leading to they shadow form creatures rampantly flying out of control on the lorewyn side and lorewyn creatures then getting stranded and victimized within the shadowy other side of the plane. You get the idea.

[@SplinteredLimb]

Been waiting for this video for over a year now, and it's finally here! Here's to 100 years Spice8Rack! Spice8Rack 100 years! 100 episodes!

[@Spice8Rack]

100 episodes and a movie baybee!

[@christopherb501]

@@Spice8Rack So what would your Szechuan sauce be?

[@danimitetwitch]

Gotta hand it to you Spice. Not many 2+ hour videos are engaging enough that I would devote two days of work commute time to listening to them part by part, but you always hold my interest

[@Crossark1]

What I liked most about RTR was exactly what you like about Lorwyn vis a vis the unimportance of planeswalkers. I’ll grant you that RTR was significantly more focused on the actions of the planeswalkers than Lorwyn was, but the reason the Ravnica of RTR felt real to me was that you had all these groups of people doing their own things because of their own motives, with a core macguffin-esque conflict that occasionally drew them into contact with one another. I couldn’t have cared less - even as a 13-year-old - what Jace was trying to do about Nicol Bolas or whatever. I cared about what Teysa was scheming about; I cared about whose hands the future of the Conclave would lie in; I cared about Dimir’s schemes and Gruul’s path towards dissolution; and I cared about the plight of the Guildless, going about their daily lives at the mercy of the whims of these eccentric and usually diametrically opposed guild members. There was *so much* of Ravnican life to see in that block, with the rare planeswalker shenanigan-centric cards being ostensibly the core that you didn’t really need to care about if you didn’t want to. You didn’t really need to know anything about Jace or any other pre-existing characters other than that Jace was a smorty pants and Nicol Bolas was mean. Their backstories and previous travels were irrelevant. You could get in, learn about the characters within the guilds, and become invested in how their stories intertwined with the characters of other guilds and of the Guildless.

[@walls_of_skulls6061]

Lorwyn is one of my favorite sets ever! I never knew the lore and I’m glad you made this video! I wish they made more tribal cards and I really want them to return to that plane.

[@ToxicAtom]

Finally, another set where Day/Night can be mechanically relevant, it's not like a bunch of people already hate that. (I am not one of those people, Tovolar is more of a dad to me than my actual father ever was)

[@janmelantu7490]

Day/Night would be absolutely sweet if they wanted to keep Lorwyn/Shadowmoor as constantly flipping plane

[@origaminosferatu3357]

Oh my glob, Day/Night for new Lorwyn would be amazing. I was so surprised and a little sad when there was no new energy in Kamigawa ND

[@player1redletsgo260]

That tovolar line sent Me. My lord

[@collinbeal]

Not to mention that Tovolar, Dire Overlord is among the most satisfying Magic card names ever. It gives off the same energy as "I've spent enough time in Solstheim to last a lifetime". You don't need to make a joke out of the name to make it fun, like pronouncing God-Eternal Bontu with a 90's California surfer bro accent or saying "Jadamn" whenever your Jadar, Ghoulcaller of Nephalia is inevitably hated off the board (yes, I am a mono-black zombie fanatic).

[@VengirSvogthos]

I'm so happy you made a video dedicated to my favorite realm in MTG. All too often I think back on the sets I used to play standard tournaments in, lorwyn was the one I loved the most. Goblin agro for the win!

[@АйдоралСмертестойкий]

I have recently read the Lorwyn/Shadowmoor novels and was amazed how dark they actually were. Even the Lorwyn ones. When you look at cards it looks like a happy-go-lucky world but the story starts with a wedding procession massacre. I agree with you on the outstanding quality of these novels. When I compare them to the planeswalker ridden snorefest the novels became today it is... like day and night.

[@gilroyscopa]

I remember them being kinda sad and grim. Has been a long time since I read them. Wasn't Ashling the main character?

[@АйдоралСмертестойкий]

@@gilroyscopa She was one of them but mostly we see Rhys' point of view in the first book

[@eligrimsley7869]

I just love lorwyn so much, I’m in the exact same boat where I’m fascinated by the set despite never playing it (possibly due to my childhood in a Vermont town) but everything you said is quite literally spot on for me, lorwyn is just such a beautiful escape from reality, even if it’s just for a little while

[@alexscriabin]

thank u btw I hate when MTG fans do free PR for Hasbro by repeating "Lorwyn, Kamigawa, Time Spiral, and so on were badly designed because they didn't sell well *enough*"; when Kamigawa like doubled Commander, Lorwyn gave us most of the good ideas in how tribal works, and Time Spiral gave us most of the good ideas in how Magic works.

[@M2Brad]

Time spiral block what keeps me always coming back to magic. Just the possibilities make me so interested. Will fortify ever see another print? What plane is frenzy sliver on? Why the larger primates of dominaria produce so much free smelly mana?

[@alexscriabin]

@@M2Brad also drafting any tribal set with Changeling (Lorwyn, Modern Horizons, Kaldheim, and so on) is much funner than drafting any tribal set without enough tribal support, it's like drafting a multicolor set without color-fixing. the Mothership articles about changeling and about like the 12 kinds of tribal effects in Lorwyn is a 101 on how to make a tribal set that's not as narrow/linear.

[@M2Brad]

@@alexscriabin I agree with that. I had the oppurtunity to play it on mtgo and was really suprised by how much glue work they did in my deck. Especially when you have the harbingers and they can always tutor a creature or removal. It kinda reminded me of Mirrodin block. Another set I was too young to play, but felt very tight, since there was almost always a playable artifact in a pack.

[@posadistpossum]

Yeah the idea that "not selling well" = "bad set" has always been so annoying to me

[@dipperpines2835]

Thank you for this heart-warming tribute/praise to Lorwyn. It's more than a decade I want to return there!

[@WallsEryx]

In my opinion, Lorwyn/Shadowmoor is the most criminally underrated plane in MtG and I was honestly a bit disappointed when they opted to just make diet Lorwyn/Shadowmoor through Eldraine, which is even getting a second visit already, while Lorwyn/Shadowmoor has been relegated to the occasional supplemental product. (I'm only 30 minutes in, so I apologise if any of this comes up later in the video and I'm just being redundant)

[@MTG_Scribe]

I was yesterday years old when I found out Lorwyn wasn't a universally beloved block. To be fair, I'd been away from Magic since the block ended, but it's so absolutely delightful I just assumed people loved it.

[@montgomeryharr30]

I quite liked the disparity in the giants gameplay mechanics. It made them feel somewhat like loners in the world. Lumbering around each with their own personality and alliances (or lack thereof).

[@zachall1573]

In a way Giants kind of filled the role of Humans as the most diverse creature type.

[@ProUzer]

I agree, they are depicted as creatures that didn't form communities or anything and therefore don't support eachother

[@Markvdorow]

I feel like each giant was the personification of the maximalism of a concept, each being a different individual concept and as such each giant being different from the others

[@lacunalunacy]

Giants were defined by their lack of community in the same way that other tribes were defined by their community. Individuals might find alliances and tribes with which to commune, but the needs of a giant, both physiological and essential prevent them from forming larger communities of their own kind. It takes a Hamlet to feed a Hamletback golliath. Two giants together would break the back of any agricultural community.

[@benbyrd4552]

I’ve been telling people for years I want nothing more than a return to lorwyn. I’ve never had the chance to open a single pack from the set but I’ve put the lands from that block in almost every deck I own and every piece of art I come across from it just hits something special other sets can’t even come close to. Thanks for making this! I’m excited to shove this at all of my mtg buds and force them to watch

[@truemanmassat5919]

Prediction: When we finally reach a set that players can't hurl as much ridiculous amounts of money at and destroy sales records due to product fatigue, and sales drop by like 1%, Wizards will call it "a bigger failure than Lorwyn" I am not taking questions

[@OneFoxTwoFox]

I see you have been looking at the Activision playbook. Shocking how once we go down the rabbit hole of video games with seasons and the risk of fomo, we see the money hungry trend from shareholders to do the same at Hasbro/WotC.

[@user-et3xn2jm1u]

I would agree but we're already returning to Ixalan. Cmon, how are we going back to Ixalan before Lorwyn??

[@Gemini476]

@@user-et3xn2jm1u Ixalan was somewhat of a failure mechanically (the archetype color split didn't work that well, the cards on a whole were seen as underpowered, etc.), but from what I can tell the _setting_ was popular. Pirates and dinosaurs! For Lorwyn/Shadowmoor, meanwhile, part of the issue _is_ the setting. Much like it was for Kamigawa, hence why they completely reworked Kamigawa's setting to make it more closely conform to modern (cyberpunky) stereotypes of Japan.

[@petermiller8727]

Lorwyn was the last set of Magic that I really loved. The design shift after it never felt as alive, and as a person who built decks from flavor and to represent the narratives and factions of the novels I just fell out of love with Magic as a game. These video essays are the best engagement with Magic I've had since high school in this era.

[@KalvinStrange]

You've really put into words what happened to me and what I always felt. I never felt connected to a world the same way again and I drifted away.

[@danielsniff6405]

I really love how almost every single card in these sets has flavor text. It really helps in giving the cards character, as apposed to an entire dictionary of rules text.

[@MrDrewwills]

Getting into magic I stumbled onto Shadowmoor from the Pumpkin king, wonder what set gave such badass art. I then scrolled through the card list on scryfall and fell in love. it's like Magic the Gatherings take on Tim Burton. It's not gritty or heavy like a lot of horror, it's still got that whimsy and unique exaggerated look to it that gives so much charm to movies like Coraline or Nightmare Before Christmas. I think playing up that aspect could do wonders for selling a return to the plane.

[@YawgmothWasRight]

Just the other day I asked myself : What did the original five even do on Lorwyn ? It appears Lorwyn is just a mighty fine plane to visit, and they just happened to all go there that one time.

[@origaminosferatu3357]

Beach episode.

[@Dalenthas]

As far as I'm aware, there's no in-Canon evidence that the Lorwyn 5 ever actually even went to Lorwyn, never mind at the same time. When Liliana and Garruk met in the Innistrad storyline, was Lorwyn mentioned?

[@YawgmothWasRight]

They didn't necessarily meet each other, planes are pretty big places usually. Maybe they all just went for a twee picnic of some kind, who knows.

[@christopherb501]

@@Dalenthas Some travelogue of Jace doing a survey when he was working for the Interplanar Consortium. Nothing concrete beyond that.

[@ich3730]

chandra x nissa honeymoon happened and you cant convince me otherwise

[@rudidelport8324]

Your Lorwyn is my Ravnica When that set came out everything was super fresh. The guilds were awesome, the stories were great, and the new possibilities the set offered was revolutionary.

[@redshiftproductions7158]

All of the Hideaway lands have direct creatures in Shadowmoor even to the point where they are referenced in the art. The Spinerock Knoll is a knoll in the shape of a dragon. Look to the bottom right of the card art, its a dragon head. These lands were designed to become creatures when the plane switched. Also thank you you Spicy Beast for making a 2 hour video on Lorwyn, it is also my favorite set because of its twee-ness, imaginative world building, and gorgeous art. You are the best and continue to make my favorite magic content

[@OneFoxTwoFox]

Did you notice that each Lorwyn hideaway and it's corresponding Shadowmoor creature art is done by the same artist. There is no way they didn't know the future set of darkness in Shadowmoor and have the pieces for the creature in the picture of the hideaways (your seeing the head in the knoll as an example). if you look at the troll, the hands/arms are the trees on both sides of the bridge, where the body is more rocky like the actual bridge. This is actual brilliance and even further enhances the whimsical feel of both sets. Magic needs more of this.

[@redshiftproductions7158]

@@OneFoxTwoFox 100% it was planned well in advance and using the same artist was such a great way to show the connection between the two. The question is did the artists get the brief for both cards at the same time or did they get the Lorwyn cards first then 3 months later get a request asking them for the same thing but different for Shadowmoor?

[@OneFoxTwoFox]

@@redshiftproductions7158 I would love to find out. And I went back to the cards and saw that John Howe did the Black Hideaway but not the black creature in Shadowmoor. The plot thickens.

[@redshiftproductions7158]

@@OneFoxTwoFox Oooh! I did not know that

[@OneFoxTwoFox]

@@redshiftproductions7158 Howltooth Hollow (the Hideaway land) in Larwyn was John Rowe and Hollowborn Barghest (the creature) in Shadowmoor was Eric Fortune. John Howe did not have a black mana creature in Shadowmoor.

[@kevinreese5656]

This video made me a Patreon supporter. Lorwyn is the only block for which I have completest ambitions: I want every card. Years ago your video on goblins introduced me to Wort, Boggart Auntie, who has been the general of one of my favorite EDH decks since that introduction. Strangely, my other favorite general is Ayara, First of Locthwain.

[@andresbellocq6421]

My favorite tribe of lorwyn was scarecrow: a pile of junk who maybe assembling together can do somes things. Looks like most of my decks.

[@cryssanie]

I started playing MtG on a local gamestore level at the time of Lorwyn/Alara standard, so I have many of my fondest memories around MtG from that time. This set will always have a special place in my heart and I really hope we'll get a proper return at some time. Also I still have some remnants of Kitchen Finks and Swans of the Bryn Agroll induced PTSD to this day, these two cards were everywhere at that time and not many people remember them today like they do for example the Cryptic Command or Bitterblossom.

[@pauljarrige9981]

Shadowmoor was actually the first set I ever played. This video is a godsend and I'm feeling weirdly emotional watching it. Thanks a lot, you're great.

[@jaredwonnacott9732]

I didn't grow up in England. I also missed Lorwyn despite playing before and after. I also think of Lorwyn block as the thing I missed out on the most while in hiatus. I love Lorwyn and would love to have it revisited properly.

[@itsemmit]

Back in college when I got into magic during the release of New Phyrexia, the college tech shop had magic cards from all the way back into like onslaught block. I fondly remember going in like once or twice a week and snagging one pack from each of the Lorwyn/Shadowmoor sets and just falling in love with the fairy tale aesthetic of block(s). Its been like 8 years and I still got a Sapling of Colfenor treefolk tribal deck in commander. I attribute my love of tribal decks to Lorwyn almost 100%.

[@TheBaroness75]

As a massive fan of the "overly long, needlessly in-depth, analysis of something that no one else cares as much about as the person writing this video" genre of videos, I have to say that you have done a wonderful job. Your comedy, editing and general goblin-esque charisma carries these videos to stand with titans like Hbomberguy, Sarah Z, and Quinton Reviews. Keep doing what you're doing, and don't let anyone tell you that your videos are too long. They're just right.

[@Awsomeman328]

1:54:03 Along with these two mechanics, I would also throw in the Daybound/Nightbound mechanic. It seems almost perfect to represent the changes in the world between day and night. At least thematically I believe it is perfect, mechanically I'm not 100% sure on. But Daybound is the first mechanic that came to my mind when you started mentioning this part. Regardless, I'd imagine that a new Lrowyn/Shadowmoor Fused set would definitely include some form of the double-face card mechanic, whether it be reusing a previous mechanic or creating a brand new one.

[@Hometown_Outdoorsman]

love the video man. Lorwyn was the first set that I bought when I was a kid and I still have my original unchanged treefolk tribal deck over 15 years later. I will always have a special spot in my heart for Lorwyn and all the memories I have of it. My favorite of which being me and my three friends at the local card shop (which has been closed down for probably 10 years or more at this point) and a summers worth of money from odd jobs, just to spend it on four booster boxes so me and my friends could open them up and help each other put a few decks together to play.

[@Krunschy]

Lorwyn is on top of my list for a revisit aswell. Such a fun, quaint plane.

[@sammather8295]

I would love for lorwyn to get revisited, but I think it’ll be hard for them to do. The 4 set block that was lorwyn was incredibly unique, so much so that it’d be very hard to design something similar especially since we don’t have block sets anymore. Also the story from lorwyn essentially ended itself with the merging of the worlds, making it hard to continue the story.

[@ErnieVivas1291]

As a player for more than 20 years, and having Lorwyn being my all-time favorite plane ever, this is an amazing love letter to it. Thank you, for this amazing gift to everyone that loves Lorwyn, and for thia incredibly explained story of the plane for anyone who was not playing during that time. Incredible work.

[@atnervesend]

Lorwyn was my first set of Magic, it came out my sophomore year of highschool and the lunch table playground decided to have a months long tournament deemed Tribal Wars. I ended up winning with a mean UB Faerie Control deck. And that's why Lorwyn will forever be my favorite set

[@emano3203]

I started playing Magic when I was 9 years old, during the Planar Chaos set. Lorwyn is and always will be my favorite MTG block and plane. The perfection of its worldbuilding and story is enhanced by the BEST art direction that MTG ever had. I honestly kinda dread a Lorwyn return, because I fear that the art direction simply cannot be replicated in todays modern, hasbroified MTG. Thank you for this video!

[@thewifs.]

God, I LOVED Lorwyn/Shadowmoor block. I loved the storybook setting, tribal/color mechanics

[@GR-M3]

Lorwyn/Shadowmoor for me is without a doubt the most beloved set to date. Unmatched in it's uniqueness and style.

[@jslbrt]

I was there for Lorwyn and I never understood why it was so readily dismissed by everyone years after. It was fun, it was full of flavor and it brought about some mechanics that I so wish would come back. My hunch is that Lorwyn will get a "let's fix our mistakes from the past" revision (a la Kamigawa) in a couple of years since Kamigawa was also considered a failure in its time and was the grand slam product of this year by Maro's admission.

[@kimnowell603]

Lorwyn was my first set where I was involved in prerelease. The art and world were my favorite part. I run my DnD games in this setting for my fae touched areas of the world. Like a storybook Ravenloft.

[@WereInHell]

The first actually good deck I ever made was mono green treefolk where I just shoved every hood treefolk card from this plane into a deck and it RULED

[@SamChaneyProductions]

Holy shit We're In Hell Sam is here, and plays MTG, what's up!

[@NonApplicable1983]

We did briefly see the new Lorwyn-Shadowmoor when Nissa visited the plane, didn't we? I remember the elves were specifically confused by but very much interested in her Zendikar elf appearance. There's a fantastic scene where Nissa finds a dying boggart, recently attacked by these same elves, and feels their pain as they die. It's one of my favorite Nissa moments.

[@heitortremor]

I never really thought about how there are no humans on Lorwyn. That might be a big reason I like it so much!

[@llamarama6976]

Honestly ive always found humans in fantasy settings the most boring group to look at. I used to play warhammer fantasy and i have no idea why anyone would play generic medievil men when you could play minotaur men and crazy magic bird demons. I keep a similar belief to magic and find human tribal exeedingly boring usually only beaten in boringness by elves who i dislike for biased personal reasons.

[@christopherb501]

Certainly appeals strongly to my misanthropic ass, and that was back before I became a curmudgeon.

[@MrQlzqlzuup]

@@llamarama6976 Humans in fantasy world can be done well, their main boring-ness comes from the average recipe of "short-living, weak, but somehow dominant species in the middle of all the polar extremities of fantasy races".

[@ich3730]

@@MrQlzqlzuup tbf thats kinda the point of humans in fantasy. Being the "normal" to contrast every other thing to. If everything is whacky, nothing is.

[@MrQlzqlzuup]

@@ich3730 Right, but you don't have to focus your story on mainly human-populated world. Contrast works even better if humans are trying to fit in the non-human society.

[@anomaly7853]

That bit about other sets being far too focused on the planeswalkers and their overarching stories resonated particularly significantly with me because I so often see interesting cards about which I want to know more, but I find scarcely anything of them in anything but their own flavor text, if that. I want to know more about Mr. Orfeo, about Jaxis.

[@jwhutch4]

I love your passion and depth. You are a delightful human (three goblins in a trenchcoat). I love the lore of this game and you always do a great job digging deep into it. Thanks for all you do and keep being a sexy planeswalker.

[@worstcyberpunkdystopia2188]

Great video! Lorwyn fell during my post Mercadian Masques and pre New Phyrexia break from magic. Its got so many weird mechanics that I love seeing pop up in modern and commander, not to mention the gorgeous art!

[@shen8406]

Spice: * makes a 2 hours long video to explain why it like so much Lorwyn * Me: It's because the goblins

[@alfred8936]

You really captured that feeling I get when I look at Lorwyn stuff. It feels like a set that has a genuine soul to it. Funny enough I think I also experienced a kind of "secondhand twee" growing up in the form of books like the Spiderwick Chronicles or movies like the Labyrinth, which I believe really influenced why this set has so much aesthetic magnetism for me lol

[@matteosavi656]

TWO HOURS defence of Lorwyn? Just made coffee and slapped like button even before starting. I love you BECAUSE you are unhinged

[@Spice8Rack]

Bless you and your endless enabling of my downward spiral

[@ix8750]

I went to all the pre-releases and events in my area for the whole Lorwyn/Shadowmoor blocks. I specifically remember my black bue fairy rogue decks doing really well in the draft setting. Some of the best times i had had at a LGS, The first booster box i ever bought with my own money was from Shadowmoor I was so excited for the split cost cards.

[@jerseymatt848]

I am so happy we are returning there. The wait is gonna be torture.... just about a year and a half away now.

[@Bomfunker91]

Love the subject matter! Lorwyn/Shadowmoor is such a distinct and neat plane. It feels so dang original and unique within MTGs catalogue of worlds, despite all the IRL folklore it's drawing from.

[@Leucrerhedix]

Lorwyn has always been my favorite set. I could never really explain why but this video nailed it all on the head and then some. After that, it kept going for another 2 hours yet I just couldn't stop watching.

[@bluedog4248]

I was never able to play Lorwynn but I fell in love with the set when I found out every elemental is based on something from the mind. Which makes cards like mulldrifter, I got chewer, etc. More interesting

[@christopherb501]

Still bugs me that, given that, the card named _"Horde of Notions"_ was not ALSO an Incarnation alongside the cycle.

[@mr.whistler6114]

Lorwyn block still to this day has some of my all time favorite cards ever printed. The set really did manage to pull a completely different flavor of bicolor mechanics that really sets it appart from Ravnica (and Return to Ravnica, and every sets that happen in Ravnica, and every sets that wish were happening in Ravnica), and that is a good thing! More often color combinations should get different takes on their flavor and what they represent as part of the world.

[@PhiladelphiaCoIlins]

Lorwyn was my first set! I ran a Kithkin deck. The art on the lands were also amazing as they had made panoramas when put together. Great set, great times.

[@estevaotesta6139]

Spice, my boy. This video was such a delightfull trip. Please, never stop making what you enjoy, specially if it led to more experiences like this.

[@M2Brad]

Thank you for this one mate. I am barely a half hour in, but I just wanted to say that you really hit on all the best parts magic. Thank you for always looking at what we should be caring for :]

[@neingraham2010]

Was just at the lgs looking thru Lorwyn bulk and had the best convo with the shop owner about this video whilst ruminating over how delightfully twee everything truly was.

[@tiredvampire]

I'd love to see how that whole "daily aurora" thing would work with the day/night mechanic. Besides being potentially interesting when it comes to card mechanics and flavor, having one side be more storybook-esque and the other be an edgy subversion might help assuage fears that the teen demographic will find the cards too cutesy to be appealing.

[@xkabuto]

I played this set and the constructed format was a lot of fun! I loved the theme of everyone selecting it's tribe, the games felt super flavourful and rich in narrative. (I feel extremely old now)

[@JVanAllen2786]

I'm proud to say I was able to attend a Lorwyn Pre-release event. It was truly magical. Pardon the pun. But it was one of the best MTG events I participated in.

[@dianauwu1312]

Imagine if they released these sets backwards. Imagine if we went from the nightmare of Shadowmoor to the picturesque utopia of Lorwyn, only to have that quaint, wonderful world ripped away forever at the end of the block.

[@benkopczynski2190]

This is why I shouldn't save my homework until sunday. When Spice8rack doesn't have a schedule, I must always be prepared to drop everything for...TWO HOURS!? I am cursed with blessings.

[@Spice8Rack]

Cursed with blessings is, quite easily, my favourite description of how my work is percieved

[@elliot.6995]

I still have 6.5 onward left, but I wanted to comment on what you said about Gryffid: for years now I've been able to quote the flavor text of Disperse by heart because it's one of my favorite humorous flavor texts. I had no idea until today he was a central character in the story. And oddly enough I like that. I think it's great that pre-Odyssey/post-Origins story is easily accessible to people who only engage with the cards. But when they're kept separate, you allow story fans a reward for engaging with the game beyond a cursory level (like when you read the tags on a Spice8Rack video). I guess that's just because I like being able to say "Did you know?", which I suppose is just egotism. But I also like when characters are allowed to exist without obligating that some Commander is made for them. I'll close out by saying I'm well aware that someone like me shouldn't be allowed anywhere near creative control for Magic story.