The Forgotten Tudor Heir - Part 2 | Lady Katherine Grey

After Lady Jane Grey's death, what happened to her sisters and mother? This video looks at the consequences of Katherine's hasty decision to marry Edward Seymour, how the birth of her sons affected the rest of the Elizabethan court, threatening to shake the monarchy, and what became of her...
*I've removed a section of the video where I stated Thomas Seymour was Edward Seymour's father, when he was, of course, his uncle! Apologies, mistakes do happen, especially when many of the same family members have the same names and my brain doesn't concentrate while narrating. Thank you to the person who pointed it out.
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Sources and Related Books:
Lady Jane Grey - A Tudor Mystery by Eric Ives
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The Sisters Who Would Be Queen: The tragedy of Mary, Katherine and Lady Jane Grey by Leanda de Lisle
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Crown of Blood: The Deadly Inheritance of Lady Jane Grey by Nicola Tallis
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[@HistorysForgottenPeople]

Thanks for watching! What are your thoughts on how Katherine was treated? Were Elizabeth's fears understandable? If you haven't watched Part 1, you can find it here! kzbin.info/www/bejne/pau2dXR5Ypxna7s

[@BeveC21E]

I understand her fear, though I do not agree with the way in which she dealt w them. Had she insisted on a renunciation of the throne as she asked of Mary, they might've been able to be together. She was trying to protect the throne and maybe her life, in her unmarried state! She had learned and seen so much as a girl, that the lessons she had learned first, was self-preservation...at all costs!

[@HistorysForgottenPeople]

@@BeveC21E I agree, there were definitely other options which she could have taken to protect herself. The decisions made about many of her family and their secret marriages were definitely somewhat emotional.

[@jessicaevans7451]

😊0😊😊😊😊

[@graceneilitz7661]

It’s rather funny to see with hindsight that Elizabeth’s heir ended up being the correct heir following male preference primogeniture. Henry VII was married to Elizabeth of York, they had three children who outlived them. - Margaret (Queen of Scotland) - Henry VIII - Mary (Queen of France) Henry VIII also had three children who outlived him, and all three sat on the throne. - Mary I - Elizabeth I - Edward VI Following male preference primogeniture Edward became king first, and then Mary, followed by Elizabeth. Elizabeth was followed by James VI of Scotland who was the correct heir. James VI of Scotland was the great grandson of Margaret Tudor, the daughter of Henry VII, and the older sister of Henry VIII. Following male preference primogeniture, the English throne exhausted the line of Henry VIII, and then went down his older sister’s line.

[@iveyneff7460]

I teared up as you spoke of her dying. Lady Gray seemed like such an earnest and honest woman. Truly tragic

[@HistorysForgottenPeople]

I think, to me, she just seemed like a teenager who had made a hasty and silly decision because she was in love the way teenagers sometimes are. (And who hasn't made a stupid decision as a teenager?) I think if her mother had been around, it would have been done very differently, and it might have been happier.

[@Midnitethorn]

I really like that you focus on tbe people around the well known figure heads. It really fleshed out history and I am loving hearing new stories from tbe past.

[@HistorysForgottenPeople]

Thank you, I'm glad you're enjoying them! I've always liked finding out more about the 'other' people in the past, the ones who otherwise seem like cardboard background figures that don't do much until the main character wants them. 😊Having said that, I've got an itch to do a video on Mary I of England as well, as sometimes well-known stories aren't all they seem.

[@i.p.956]

The more I hear about Elizabeth, the more I think she's very cruel. For someone who was mistreated as a child, she was amazingly spoiled and stubborn.

[@HistorysForgottenPeople]

To play devil's advocate, I think Elizabeth was just an ordinary person in an extraordinary position, and the pressure of that probably was at least part of the reason for her tempers and decisions (I mean, I probably would act like that with that much stress). As a royal child, she probably was indulged, even after her father dismissed her as illegitimate, at least by those around her - possibly more so because of it. But I think that goes for Mary, as well. But yes, Elizabeth certainly did have a cruel side, but again, it wasn't as cruel as her father. I also think all three of Henry VIII's children were messed up by their various upbringings.

[@lovelyy._.lauren]

I never liked Elizabeth either. Everyone felt bad for her just because of what happened to her mother, but honestly Catherine and Mary had been treated so much worse.

[@RSZ229]

Very well done! I knew this story, but never really understood its serious ramifications for the succession until you explained it.

[@HistorysForgottenPeople]

Thank you, I'm glad you enjoyed it! 😊 It's true, there was a ridiculous number of tiny angles that could have affected the succession - mostly really caused by families having too many possible heirs as they were all very related!

[@lfgifu296]

I am now watching this video again, and may I just say that the way you combined the music, her words and your own, in the part of Katherine’s death, brought me to tears. Beautiful!

[@HistorysForgottenPeople]

Thank you so much! That's very kind of you to say. 😊 I have to admit I personally welled up a little bit when I read about the rings she wanted to go back to Edward.

[@lfgifu296]

@@HistorysForgottenPeople Yes! And the way you narrate and construct these makes me feel like I’ve accompanied Katherine through her journey, and then to hear of her death in such a touching manner… Elizabeth had some unresolved issues behind her fr😭

[@clairefordzetterstrom9973]

Hi queen!

[@marinawilson3337]

Elizabeth had the same problem as her father. She needed an heir but was unwilling to accept those that were there in England with her and was set on Mary queen of Scotts. Which ended with her favored heir dead at her own hands and every other heir bear heir disinherited or dead. She took after her father in almost every way except having many husbands

[@HistorysForgottenPeople]

The two were said to be very alike in a lot of ways. I will say that (while she still could be cruel) Elizabeth wasn't as bloodthirsty as her father. Low bar, I know, but still. I think she also understood she couldn't rule the country to her whims (as her father did with the Dissolution of the Monasteries), or at least was more willing to listen to her advisers. But you're right, both Elizabeth and her father had issues over who their heir should be. And certainly the way in which she handled Mary, Queen of Scots could have been a lot better.

[@susangavaghan]

This is a tragic tale. Elizabeth was an extremely cruel woman - look at how her own parents married in a secret ceremony and she herself was made illegitimate. Yet she had no compassion for this couple and tried to make their children illegitimate.

[@HistorysForgottenPeople]

To be honest, although people in the past must be viewed in the context of their own time, I think I have to agree with you. Although it's understandable how nervous Elizabeth was about her position, and how she didn't like Parliament undermining her absolute authority, plenty of people around her at the time thought she was being cruel to them for no reason. It's not as though Katherine (or Edward, for that matter) had made any serious overtures to wanting the throne.

[@susangavaghan]

@@HistorysForgottenPeople That's exactly right. This couple and their children meant no harm to her and posed no threat to her. It is ironic that their story was similar to Romeo and Juliet - Shakespeare was the main playwright at that time and his plays were performed for the queen. The play was meant to show sympathy for the star crossed lovers, yet Elizabeth showed no sympathy for this real life couple. I believe that Elizabeth sacrificed marriage and children in order to keep the throne, as in those days it was accepted that once a woman married the man became the head of the household. Their reasoning was that if a woman could not be the head of the household, then how could she be the head of the country? So Elizabeth proclaimed to be a virgin ad married to her country. I think that maybe she had a secret jealousy of those women who were free to marry the man they loved, as she was not free to marry Dudley. That's the only explanation for this. I read that she broke the finger of one woman who married without her permission ad boxed the ears of her cousin Lettice when she found out that she had married Robert Dudley. I thought that I knew everything from Tudor history but I hadn't heard this story before.

[@joshuaowens4011]

she was not cruel

[@susangavaghan]

@@joshuaowens4011 She was a extremely cruel woman. She attacked her cousin Lettuce when she married her favourite Robert Dudley, she broke the finger of one woman who married without her permission and stabbed a woman's hand with a fork when she served her badly. She was also fond of blood sports and bear baiting. She was responsible for the burning at the stake of Catholic priests and the death of thousands of Catholics.

[@frompapertopeoplepodcast4889]

They all were. Not one of them was humble, teachable, or likely to grok a life-lesson.

[@kridswonderhowell4541]

Exceptional content! So thrilled to find your channel!

[@HistorysForgottenPeople]

Thank you so much! I'm pleased you're enjoying it. 😊

[@cplmpcocptcl6306]

Excellent upload. Thank you.

[@HistorysForgottenPeople]

Thank you! I'm glad you enjoyed it. :)

[@knash6117]

The thumbnail of the baby digging in the moms shirt! Lol!

[@HistorysForgottenPeople]

There's only two images of Katherine, and this one is also the only image of Edward Seymour Jr. I assume it's some symbolism lost to us that 16th century people understood, but who knows what it was!

[@casssmith2610]

I know a lot about this time period but obviously not everything!! I’m happy you showed up in my feed! I’m going to follow from now on, thank you!

[@HistorysForgottenPeople]

Thank you, happy to have you here! 😊

[@jeanhawken4482]

Great narration

[@HistorysForgottenPeople]

Thank you, I'm glad you enjoyed the video! 😊

[@BeveC21E]

Perhaps if Katherine and Edward offered to renounce any claim to the throne, Elizabeth might've eased their suffering! She seemed to have forbade any of her female Tudor kin from marrying, as she herself refused to do! Such selfishness! However, he was a good queen in that she really cared more for the people she ruled over, than she cared for her relatives, whom she felt threatened by! I believe she eventually paid for the cruelty she inflicted on the Scottish Mary and the Grey sisters, through her own sufferings with smallpox and the mercury poisoning of her own body! A very thorough and entertaining viewing...many thanx! ❤

[@HistorysForgottenPeople]

Thank you, I'm glad you enjoyed it! 😊 The problem with renouncing the throne was, although it would have made life easier for Edward and Katherine, it would have left Elizabeth with less Protestant heirs. And she needed them basically to marry who she said, to ensure she was surrounded with people she could trust. Edward Seymour was an unknown quantity, and I get the feeling Elizabeth didn't really trust either of them. Possibly she even disliked him because of her past involving his uncle. But certainly Elizabeth did care about her country, and during her rule she implemented a lot of good things, such as laws to help the poor. Everyone has good and bad points!

[@susanmorgan8833]

Elizabeth's council had been urging her for some time to execute Mary and stop all the plots involving putting her on the English throne. She finally signed the execution order when Mary's signature was on the directive for a plot to kill Elizabeth and put her on the throne. She had tried to avoid this, but it finally became a more serious threat. And any monarch would have responded negatively to the clandestine marriage of Katherine, potential heir to the throne. Heirs simply did not marry without permission of the monarch.

[@sm0kybluedaze394]

Just excellent... excellent excellent excellent 👏🏻

[@HistorysForgottenPeople]

Thank you, I'm so pleased you enjoyed it! 😊

[@uarstar]

just noting that Edward Seymour's Father was Edward Seymour, Duke of Somerset. Thomas Seymour, Lord Hifh Admiral was his uncle.

[@HistorysForgottenPeople]

He certainly was - I've just checked my script and I've written 'uncle' but 'said' father! 🤦‍♀️ Thank you for pointing that out to me, I'll fix that, sometimes I do make a silly mistake while editing.

[@uarstar]

@@HistorysForgottenPeople no problem! I figured it was just a silly mistake as you seem to know your stuff!

[@HistorysForgottenPeople]

@@uarstar I actually remember double checking everytime I had to switch between the much younger and slightly elder Edward Seymour so much that I must have totally skipped over the Thomas Seymour! I wish just some of them had picked a different name sometimes, haha. Anything at all. Percival Seymour, perhaps, or even Geoffrey Seymour. 🤣

[@user-dx6eq7qp3c]

Trauma begets more trauma

[@jeromesullivan4015]

The Greys were descended from Henry VIII sister..at this juncture, but Henry had 3 children.. his will was specific and his will, approved by parliament seemed the course at the time..

[@HistorysForgottenPeople]

That was the case, but Elizabeth (I have a bit more on this is my Lady Jane Grey series, too) was reticent to have approval by Parliament as doing so put them above the monarch - as she saw it - threatening her absolute rule. If Elizabeth had managed to have a good relationship with Mary I of Scotland, I do wonder if maybe she might have gone easier on Katherine?

[@maralene1411]

Henry the vii. Their grandma was Mary, Henry viii sister

[@angelagrey1144]

Oh I didn’t know that 👍🏽 I see I see I see. Cool Thanks I always wondered where the greys came from.

[@glow4200]

​@@angelagrey1144Henry viii's sister Mary Tudor married his best friend Charles Brandon. Their daughter Francis married Henry Grey and was the mother of Lady Jane, Katherine, and I can't remember the other sisters name right off the top of my head.

[@MidnightAndLuna]

I don’t understand Elizabeth’s actions. She never married and therefore wouldn’t have an heir of her own. By making Catherine and Edwards children legitimate would have ensured a Protestant heir.

[@HistorysForgottenPeople]

I think it was because Parliament was so keen on them, plus I don't think she trusted the boys' father, Edward Seymour, as he wasn't someone she could control or trust. Up to a point, NOT choosing an heir for as long as possible also kept more Catholic plots at bay (although there were many!).

[@MidnightAndLuna]

@@HistorysForgottenPeople that makes sense. I could see that being the reason why she handled the situation the way she did. But, like you said, it would have kept the many Catholic plots at bay. It’s a heartbreaking story what happened to Catherine.

[@frenchartantiquesparis424]

She chose her nephew James instead, right?

[@MidnightAndLuna]

@@frenchartantiquesparis424 she did

[@caramia4143]

From what I've seen from this and your other videos on the Grey family, Elizabeth I tends to make their lives miserable then give them expensive, fancy funerals. It sends the message that they're better off dead to her, literally. She seemed to have very paranoid and egotistical, like the majority of monarchs had/have to be.

[@HistorysForgottenPeople]

I agree she behaved as might be expected, even if we would deem her behaviour abhorrent. She had lived through her father, brother and sister and their reigns, so it's not surprising she became paranoid - especially once it dawned on her she wouldn't give birth to an heir, something I think she knew before her advisors accepted it. That's an interesting take on the funerals, there could have been an element of that. I think also there was the aspect on putting on a public face as the mourning cousin, which kept the people on her side.

[@CORLEONESPORTS97]

why would they do something so stupid??? they knew elizabeth would gocrazy, very stupid

[@peggybrem2848]

Are these Greys descendants of Queen Katherine Woodvilles first marriage ? I believe that one of he sons wasn’t executed…

[@HistorysForgottenPeople]

Do you mean Catherine Woodville, Elizabeth's daughter? Or Elizabeth Woodville? (Not being sarcastic, genuinely I get muddled up at the various knotted family trees in the royal families that I'm always worried I've missed someone when they're mentioned. 🤦‍♀️🤣) I think they were descended from Elizabeth, you're right, from her eldest son with her first marriage. So on one side they were her descendants through the Grey family from her eldest son, and then also through Elizabeth of York, her daughter who married Henry VII!

[@peggybrem2848]

Thanks for the clarification 👍 Of course you meant Henry VII marriage Elizabeth of York, the daughter of Edward IV & Katherine Woodville from her second marriage.

[@HistorysForgottenPeople]

Yup, that's the one. I give up trying to work out what relationship each royal has to each other at a certain point, and just go with 'cousin'.

[@andrewmthomson0191]

Her claim to the throne is that she is descended from Henry VIII sister Mary Tudor and Charles Brandon. Their daughter Frances Grey was Lady Jane Greys mother.

[@HistorysForgottenPeople]

@@andrewmthomson0191 That's right, her 'other' ancestry from Elizabeth Woodville wasn't part of being an heir to the throne, but added, I guess, to the nobility of the Grey family.

[@areiaaphrodite]

This is what I didn't like the most about Elizabeth. Just because she decided to remain unmarried and be forever alone, apparently everyone else had to as well 🤦‍♀️

[@HistorysForgottenPeople]

It's a strange logic! Well, she did allow courtiers to be married, but it often had to be her choice. Monarchs before her, of course, had to give their permission for courtiers to marry, but that was usually to prevent dynastic families marrying into each other and becoming a threat. Elizabeth did use it in that way, but I think often there was an added element of disliking the happiness.

[@areiaaphrodite]

@History's Forgotten People True but I remember she notoriously withheld her permission for ages as well sometimes. Wasn't there a couple that had to wait years to marry simply because she didn't want to give them her permission? Plus, there was that time she threw Bess Throckmorton and Walter Raleigh in the Tower for also secretly getting married 😅

[@HistorysForgottenPeople]

@@areiaaphrodite Oh definitely, I think there were a few couples that got on the receiving end of her ill temper after marrying without permission!

[@shelleysanders9666]

It was common practice for the Tudor aristocracy to ask the ruler’s permission to get married.. See novel by P. Gregory ‘The last Tudor’

[@HistorysForgottenPeople]

It certainly was, but in some cases, as here, they didn't- and got into trouble for it. Elizabeth had to deal with quite a few, most famously her kinswoman Lettice Knollys and Robert Dudley.

[@RSZ229]

Elizabeth I was undisputedly a great ruler, but she could be cruel.

[@HistorysForgottenPeople]

You're right - I suppose like most leaders, she just needed to make sure the majority liked what she did.

[@random_thoughts5343]

Queen Elizabeth was spiteful with a hardened heart.

[@HistorysForgottenPeople]

In her defence, (as much as I'm of the opinion that she was far too cruel and allowed emotion to fuel some of these decisions), she had Parliament pushing her about marriage. The Grey sisters could be her heirs, even if she didn't acknowledge it, and who they married was therefore very important, along with many others in her court.

[@random_thoughts5343]

@@HistorysForgottenPeople Her punishments went to far...I do understand the need to control her kingdom, but she took things to the extreme and I think she sadistically enjoyed the pain of others. JMO

[@lilibetp]

The Tudors sure have a lot to atone for in hell...

[@HistorysForgottenPeople]

Well, they probably weren't any worse than any other rulers from the past, with some exceptions. But yes, there were certainly some horrible decisions made!

[@kenb735]

Not ever very fair to judge eras of the past & their behavior against own. The 1st rule of absolute monarchy is to block rivals to your rule by any means. They’ll be trying to topple you by any means themselves. That’s the whole point of the history of the Greys - they did try to usurp the legitimate named heir Mary I in the name of religion.

[@HistorysForgottenPeople]

Exactly this. Nevertheless, people in the past had a strange sense of some things being unfair while acknowledging them as daily life, and the Tudors made both popular and unpopular decisions with the public. (Such as several beheadings in which the crowds had sympathy for those executed, but still accepted it as part of daily life). Obviously things eventually changed, but yup, being the monarch meant being brutal. Charles I is a great example - he was beheaded because the people decided they no longer wanted one man doing as he wished, but he wasn't really doing anything different to his ancestors.

[@carolinemckenna-xc2be]

mary queen of scots was elizabeths half sister

[@HistorysForgottenPeople]

I think you might be getting muddled up with Mary I of England who was Elizabeth's half-sister? They liked to use the same names a lot in the past, it's easily done! 🙂

[@carolinemckenna-xc2be]

@@HistorysForgottenPeople I stand corrected apologies

[@HistorysForgottenPeople]

@@carolinemckenna-xc2be No worries, it's easy to mix them up sometimes with so many of the same name!

[@mariahammarstrom7934]

"Sess-ill". not "see-sill"-

[@HistorysForgottenPeople]

Yes, I realised after I'd posted the video up, unfortunately! Sometimes I do make a mistake in my videos, thank you for spotting it - it's something I've made sure not to repeat. :)