The Last Tudor Heir Of The Grey Family | Lady Mary Grey

With the death of her older sister Jane, her mothers' death, and her sister Katherine locked in the Tower of London, Lady Mary Grey was left alone at Elizabeth's court. Although she tried to keep her head down, she would anger the queen with the same mistake Katherine made - with a secret marriage. And with Katherine's death, Lady Mary would become the final Tudor heir of the Grey family...
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Sources and Related Books:
Lady Jane Grey - A Tudor Mystery by Eric Ives
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The Sisters Who Would Be Queen: The tragedy of Mary, Katherine and Lady Jane Grey by Leanda de Lisle
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Crown of Blood: The Deadly Inheritance of Lady Jane Grey by Nicola Tallis
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[@HistorysForgottenPeople]

Thanks for watching! Why do you think Mary risked Elizabeth's wrath with her own secret marriage? Was she just blindly in love? If you enjoyed this video, why not find out more about the Grey sisters here: The Forgotten Tudor Queen - Part 1 | Lady Jane Grey kzbin.info/www/bejne/fmGydZSdqrKjaMk The Forgotten Tudor Heir - Part 1 | Lady Katherine Grey kzbin.info/www/bejne/pau2dXR5Ypxna7s

[@timefoolery]

I think she knew deep down that Elizabeth wouldn’t allow her to marry so she decided if she was ever going to have a real life, she’d have to take it into her own hands. Better to ask forgiveness than to ask for permission.

[@mirandastork5759]

@@timefoolery You know, I think that's probably the most likely reason - quite a few courtiers went for the 'forgiveness over permission' route. It might have even worked out, had they both remained alive long enough, who knows?

[@JM-The_Curious]

Forgiveness over permission worked well for The Gray sisters grandmother Mary Tudor in her marriage to Charles Brandon. And then marrying below her status seemed to work out well for their mother Frances Brandon when she married Adrian Stokes. I think Mary Grey hoped her marriage to Keyes would be viewed as non-threatening by Elizabeth. She probably thought Katherine's marriage to Edward Seymour looked too much like an attempted dynastical match and she wanted to do something non-threatening and hope for the forgiveness her elder sister didn't get.

[@mirandastork5759]

@@JM-The_Curious I think that's probably spot on. Plus at that point, Katherine was still alive, so Mary possibly didn't even think about the line of succession that closely.

[@barbarapaige4587]

The Forgotten Tudor Queen is an excellent book, although all the sisters are badly treated; very tragic.

[@areiaaphrodite]

The irony of the Grey sisters' stories is that all they wanted in life was to just be happy. They just happened to be born into a bloodline that made them candidates for the throne, but none of them ever really wanted it. Even Jane, when named Edward's heir, adamantly said that she didn't want to be Queen. They all just seemed to want love and families of their own. It's quite sad, really. RIP to them ❤

[@HistorysForgottenPeople]

Exactly! You could argue that Jane did express some desires for her rule after a few days, indicating she had at least accepted the role, but as you say, none of them were out for power and glory. It's sad that not one of them escaped without a tragic end to their stories.

[@MidnightAndLuna]

I feel so bad for the Grey sisters. Catherine’s story was so heartbreaking. She was only guilty of falling in love. And it’s amazing that her and Edward were still madly in love even after years apart. Her death is a heartbreaking end to a really sad story

[@HistorysForgottenPeople]

It is, really. I think the one good part, for Mary, at least, is that she got have some sense of autonomy over her own life after her imprisonment. Although even then, that wasn't for many years, either!

[@MidnightAndLuna]

@@HistorysForgottenPeople I agree! And she died so young, too

[@susangavaghan]

The Grey sister certainly had sad lives. It was somewhat foolish for Mary to have married secretly, after what happened to her sister Katherine. However, at least she was eventually free and enjoyed the latter part of her short life.

[@HistorysForgottenPeople]

I agree - it was such a strange decision to make. When I was first researching them, I even checked the dates, because I assumed Mary at least had her marriage after Katherine's death! But to go through a secret marriage while her sister was in the Tower for her own is somewhat mad. Perhaps they were so in love they thought it would be alright, or perhaps Mary was given bad advice. I feel had her mother still been alive, who was much more savvy about the 'right' way to go about these things, especially after losing Jane and her husband, things might have gone differently.

[@panloum]

It seems like she had enough of everything and decided to just go with her feelings no matter what the consequences would be. I mean both of her sisters had horrible deaths and were imprisoned, her family fortune and name were gone, Elizabeth did not care at all for her as it seems, and she probably had few or no friends of importance anymore. That she never saw her husband again who died so miserable in a small cell must have been so horrible for her...

[@HistorysForgottenPeople]

I've got to admit, I try to keep my 'distant historian' hat on when I do these videos, but part of me really wanted to go back in time and give her a hug, poor girl. Her decision does seem like an emotional one, but it's surprising Thomas Keyes went along with it, too. But then, we know very little about him, really, and maybe he was persuaded by Mary and her cousins?

[@panloum]

@@HistorysForgottenPeople I kind of think that too. Just like in the cases of Princess Mary the French Queens and Mary Boleyn, I think these women decided they were done with doing only what was expected from them. And in all three cases i believe it was the women who persuaded the grooms to enter these marriages, I mean it seems highly unlikely for the men that they would gamble to marry someone so far out of their league just hoping they would get their money and family name. In those times I don't think so. Cecily of York married a commoner and that was it for her, and her husband didn't really get anything out of marrying a princes. So it makes sense to me that all these women persuaded their husbands to marry them and not the other way around. Maybe Mary thought that by marrying a "nobody" it would be a safe choice and Elizabeth would not really mind, just like Lady Frances did. Maybe she made him believe that too. By watching your video (by the way it is a great one, very interesting) I can see that her timing was very very bad throughout her later part of life, just like it was for Katherine although of course by no fault of their own, so unlucky....

[@HistorysForgottenPeople]

@@panloum It always seems so unlikely with marriages in the past (especially noble or royal ones) that actual 'love' was ever involved, but of course perhaps it was on these occasions! 🥰 And yes, timing certainly seemed to be a bit of a problem for the whole Grey family, sadly...

[@Philip-bk2dm]

Which is more important? Memorizing the names and dates to pass the exam, or making the characters and their stories come alive again, as you have done here, and stimulating young minds with the desire to learn more? Many thanks.

[@HistorysForgottenPeople]

Aww, thank you! 😊 That's very kind. Although, I guarantee the names and dates are still very helpful, and if I get any wrong (it happens, I'm human), you can definitely let me know! 😂

[@Philip-bk2dm]

@@HistorysForgottenPeople My comment was worded poorly. Of course, both are important. I meant to say that my experience in History classes made the subject seem dry, dull, and remote, whereas if the events had been presented in the vital, colorful way that you bring to it there would have been a lot less daydreaming in the classroom.

[@HistorysForgottenPeople]

It certainly wasn't intended to pick on your word choices, more covering myself, just in case! 😂 And that's such a big compliment, thank you. Weirdly, I loved history, but had the same experience. Things often did seem to be a long list of dates and names with little context. It's only when I've got older and been able to dissect things more leisurely people suddenly come back to life. Hopefully, anyway!

[@csc7225]

@@Philip-bk2dm I was very lucky in History class. My HS World History class had us putting on a Phoenician puppet show, creating an illuminated manuscript and even holding a mock debate between the US and the Soviets (this was in the late 1980s). In college, I had a professor who didn't dismiss dates but felt chronology and understanding how one event led to another (and so forth) was more important. His favorite saying was, "what's a couple of hundred years between friends." Ofc he was kidding because he would have nailed us to the wall if we thought the Battle of Hastings was in 1266, but I appreciated his understanding of the why and what it led to was more important than if something happened in 1568 or 1569. I wish everyone had the opportunity to see history as vibrant, exciting, sometimes maddening, and usually always better than associated fiction. Cheers!

[@ladyshakari]

Its terrible that these women were not free to marry because Elizabeth was selfish. I don't know why people think Elizabeth was such a great queen she wasn't she was a very selfish woman.

[@HistorysForgottenPeople]

I agree with you that personality-wise, Elizabeth was definitely not 'great' - she was a lot like her father. Her tempers were infamous in court circles, and it's obvious her decision to not marry meant she hated anyone else getting married and being happy, especially without her permission. But she's considered the most successful Tudor ruler as during her era England won against Spain, her country had relative peace, things like poor laws were brought in, and the economy did well. It was kind of a situation where the ordinary people (who didn't really give two hoots about the members of the aristocracy) were kept happy. But if you were someone close to Elizabeth, everything was always a bit tense. So Elizabeth was perhaps politically great, but definitely not in many other ways!

[@danielgeorge7802]

It's also a monarchy thing. No heir to any throne is allowed to marry without the consent of the reigning monarch. Secondly, any decent leader lacks something personality wise. The first Elizabeth was without question one of our greatest monarchs, though friend wise perhaps not all one might wish for

[@ladyshakari]

@@HistorysForgottenPeople i read that queen elizabeth 1 broke one of her attendants finger and slapped another. Why was she so worried about her female cousins getting married and having children?

[@HistorysForgottenPeople]

Mostly because - like Daniel George said in his comment - it was also about the monarchy. She didn't really consider her father's will (the only reason the Grey family were even considered for the throne) to be correct as she didn't consider her cousins to be 'royal' in the way Mary, Queen of Scots was. This was made worse by Parliament agreeing with the will, and Elizabeth did not like Parliament's growing power. So if her cousins married the wrong person who wanted to grab power for themselves, and then they had children, it was a HUGE threat to her position, especially as it became clear she wouldn't have children of her own. There were always groups of people looking to get Elizabeth off her throne, especially Catholic groups within Europe, and I think her paranoia got the better of her at times. There was also, (I think, from her many actions, including the attendant who got a broken finger) an element of a ruler having absolute rule which she wholeheartedly believed in, and she hated anyone arguing against her or doing something against her desires. In short, I think Elizabeth was a product of her environment, personality, and the social order which said she was at the top.

[@clare5one]

ER I had great advisors, who "advised" her actions. Keep in mind ER I'd heavy use of lead and mercury makeup, which destroys your nervous system. She was unknowingly poisoning herself.

[@JM-The_Curious]

Wonderful series of videos on the Grey sisters, thank you! All three sisters had such tragedies of lives. Being so close to the throne really wasn't a good thing for them. Elizabeth's decisions were so cruel to Katherine and Mary, and they seem so unnecessary, While Queen Mary's decision to have Jane Grey put to death was precipitated by plots against Mary's throne and life, the other two Gray sisters didn't threaten Elizabeth in the same way. Did Elizabeth's actions against Katherine and Mary Gray boil down to jealousy?

[@HistorysForgottenPeople]

Thank you, I'm pleased you enjoyed them! 😊 I think Elizabeth's actions certainly had a twinge of jealousy to them - she once publicly said she was jealous of the happiness Frances Brandon/Grey and Adrian Stokes had, but of course it was her sister Mary I who gave permission for that marriage, so Elizabeth had no say in it. I think there were other reasons, perhaps embedded in paranoia and genuine fear stoked up by her advisors who wanted her to marry.

[@JM-The_Curious]

@@HistorysForgottenPeople Could Elizabeth have wanted to eliminate the chance of another Jane Grey debacle by ensuring there was only one strong claim for the throne? And that claim through a line that had experience of monarchy, hopefully able to rule in their own right. in contrast to Jane Grey with Dudley trying to pull the strings, or even Edward VI with first Seymour and then Dudley pulling strings.

[@HistorysForgottenPeople]

I think the events around Jane Grey almost certainly had an impact - as well as watching how Mary I handled the whole thing, probably. A bit like trying to control Mary, Queen of Scots as her heir as well - at one point she liked the choice of matching her up to Lord Darnley, but then she got cold feet about THAT. There's just so many threads to it.

[@Mohammed16684]

Yes

[@lisaellis2593]

Yes!

[@Horseymama1]

I grew up in Leicester and weekly trips to Bradgate park, I always loved the ruins of lady Jane greys house and would love to know more about it.

[@HistorysForgottenPeople]

I've never visited, but it's on my list of places to go to at some point (especially as I'm not far away in North Yorkshire!). The ruins look amazing from the photos I've seen, it must have been a spectacular house.

[@Horseymama1]

@@HistorysForgottenPeople it's beautiful, the whole park is just breathtaking, you can actually feel the weight of the history there. They have added a museum in a part of thr house that's still standing. Definitely worth a trip and if you go to loseby lane you'll find the guildhall which is another medieval house all intact and you can walk round it. I think Daniel lampbert lived there. Elephant mans birth place is also in Leicester (not particularly stunning think it's a normal house with no plaque or anything). The car park where king Richard was found is there too. Belvior castle is also nearby though.

[@HistorysForgottenPeople]

@@Horseymama1 I'm taking notes! I definitely have to do a big visit now. But that's so sad Joseph Merrick ('The Elephant Man') doesn't have a plaque for his birthplace. I feel he ought to have something, poor chap. And the Guildhall looks beautiful, it reminds me a lot of the one in York.

[@mjrussell414]

I didn’t realize before that Lady Jane had sisters and they all met rather sad ends at young ages. And if you think about it, it’s all caused by King Henry VIII and his vain nonsense. Then the machinations of others trying to make their own positions within court (and subsequent possible fortunes) stronger. To be treated so badly, her and her forcibly estranged husband, seems unconscionable. Very interesting program - I enjoyed it a lot, though obviously saddened by the tale.

[@HistorysForgottenPeople]

Thank you, I'm glad you enjoyed it! 😊 Although I agree, it's such a sad tale. It's definitely a long line of people's personal and selfish decisions based on arbitrary rules someone came up with hundreds of years before. Mind you, a lot of history is like that! 😆

[@alancoe1002]

The Grey girls had horrible physically abusive parents, Jane was beaten into the Dudley marriage.

[@HistorysForgottenPeople]

Well, the only evidence for that comes from a quote Jane Grey supposedly said about how she was 'pinched and poked'. The quote comes from her tutor, Roger Ascham, who wrote it down in his book 'The Scholemaster' (I think it was spelt like that) many years after her death. He wanted to sell the book in the atmosphere of Jane being a pitied martyr figure (which she was at that point thanks to another book, Foxes' Martyrs), and wanting to stress his style of tutoring which was about being gentle and listening to the student. So Ascham had a bit of an agenda. Jane's parent had a rigorous study schedule for her, and were strict in the sense of teaching her manners, but so were ALL other noble parents at the time. It literally could save lives to know how to correctly be polite to the monarch, for example. All other evidence where it exists suggests the Grey parents were as loving as all other parents at the time. HOWEVER, their main issue was they were too ambitious, both for their daughter and themselves. But the evidence for them being abusive is based on one quote, which itself, may or may not be real. Sorry for the long response! 😅 I do go over it a bit in my Lady Jane Grey videos, especially Part 1.

[@alancoe1002]

@@HistorysForgottenPeople Thank you for your informative response. I appreciate it.

[@kathrynjordan8782]

Frances Grey, the daughter of Mary Brandon (Henry VIII's sister), was not a great mother to either of her daughters. Certainly not to Jane. Thomas Grey was just as abusive. These two only thought about themselves. Even when Thomas Grey was executed, Frances married their stable boy only because she was pregnant.

[@Nameless_Night]

Geezus, Queen Elizabeth l was so petty and selfish!

[@HistorysForgottenPeople]

She certainly could be, but she did at least have a lot of other redeeming features which made her a good queen - her father was far worse!

[@hughiepearce]

it can be explained if you live in a time of plot and intrigue, whether real or imaginary

[@AG-iu9lv]

Lawd, that painting is something else. She looks like that illustration of humpty dumpty

[@HistorysForgottenPeople]

Well, as she had a crooked spine, I think she possibly had collars made on her dresses to try and hide it a little which might be why she seems to have such a strange angle for her head on her shoulders. (This is just me staring at the picture of her for a while and supposing, I definitely don't know!) As for the smaller body compared to her head, that seems to have been a thing/problem with some painters unless they were someone like Holbein the Younger. Hopefully there's a more flattering portrait of the poor lady out there that hasn't been identified yet!

[@AG-iu9lv]

@@HistorysForgottenPeople great assessment! I don't mean to cast aspersions on her as a person in any way, I feel terrible for her having to be portrayed in such an unfortunate manner. They can't all be Holbein the younger, sadly. There was a Holbein exhibit in NYC not too long ago, and my young cousin who lives there went on my advice & said it was transcendental.

[@HistorysForgottenPeople]

@@AG-iu9lv Oh, I knew you meant the artist hadn't done as good a job as they should have, don't worry! Especially when I think this portrait was done when she was in her late 20s? I thought it was a woman at least in her 40s at first. And I believe it about the Holbein exhibit! I think that guy might have been the closest anyone got to a photograph in the 16th century.

[@TsukabuNosoratori2]

As much s I'm fascinated by Queen Elizabeth I, I'm also horrified by her jealousy, wrath and temper. Lady Mary Grey's only sin was being young, beautiful and in love. Elizabeth I was so paranoid about people jockeying for her throne I bet you IF she'd had a child out of wedlock she'd never have been able to acknowledge him/her and probably burn all records of them. She was so traumatized by her monster of a father she nearly became like him when it came to her personal life. As is often the case.

[@van7242]

I read some books about these sisters, and also Mary Queen of Scots' confinement. The financial burden she placed on their gaolers was also punitive. It sickened me enough to make me hate Elizabeth. I'd already been taken by the story of Lettuce Knowles, so the other stories made me realise Lettuce came out of this best! Elizabeth was as spiteful and vindictive as her father. Shameful, considering her own sister's continual forgiveness, yet Mary has the bad reputation.

[@HistorysForgottenPeople]

Well, I personally think all the Tudors are as bad as each other! 😆 I agree though, there has been a definite 'bad sister, good sister' narrative throughout the centuries, and it has meant neither has been viewed simply as a human being with good parts and flawed parts. I always try to see the good in people, and Elizabeth was undoubtedly a good queen, and did have redemptive qualities in how she led the country. But I definitely think Elizabeth was traumatised by a lot of different elements in her life, and instead of acting against this, often made emotional decisions that I think came from that place inside her. Lettice Knollys definitely came out best! She may not have seen it that way at the time, but she was definitely better off out of the court, I reckon.

[@van7242]

@@HistorysForgottenPeople THANK YOU for putting her name right! I adore her! I felt horrible mangling her name 😂 but my brain froze!😁❤

[@HistorysForgottenPeople]

@@van7242 Don't worry about it, there's a lot of names and spellings we don't use anymore, they can be tricky to remember sometimes! 🙂 I only remember it because I wrote it down in my recent video! 😂 I don't even know whether to use a 'K' or a 'C' for spelling 'Katherine' half the time, haha.

[@lesleymay8006]

Yes that'll be the burnings. Really unfair

[@van7242]

@@lesleymay8006 Elizabeth burned a hefty amount herself!

[@nataliederr7149]

I think your videos are wonderful!! And I mean this as compliment, but I put your videos on while I’m cleaning and they help me focus and keep me motivated more so than music lol!!! Love your speaking voice

[@HistorysForgottenPeople]

Aww, thank you! That's a lovely compliment, I'm so pleased you enjoy the videos. 😊

[@goeegoanna]

Fascinating, thank you.

[@HistorysForgottenPeople]

You're welcome, I'm glad you enjoyed it! 😊

[@goeegoanna]

@@HistorysForgottenPeople Indeed! Elizabeth has always been a great hero to me, though seeing her cruelty is disheartening, seeing her fallibility is not. She survived and thrived in a world essentially created to oppress, supress and kill such as herself doesn't excuse many of her choices, but it certainly helps us understand why she made them. She had many very good reasons to be perpetually paranoid. I have to ask, as a well read person, do you think she was the greatest monarch of Britain? Should she be called Elizabeth The Great? She certainly did more for her people than Alfred did, in my humble opinion.

[@jackdoe4632]

She certainly doesn't come anyway near Alfred the Great.@@goeegoanna

[@barronmaxxx2991]

This was quite lovely. I had only knew of her name....nothing of her life. We all have burdens in life, don't we? Losing the people that you trusted the most has been agony...as my step siblings and brother are scheming to evict me from the home I bought my mum. My spouse is gentle and afraid. God help me.

[@HistorysForgottenPeople]

I agree, everyone has two sides both good and bad, and Mary's story is often one-sided. I'm sorry to hear about your troubles, I hope you have a good resolution to them soon.

[@theonlyladybella44480]

It's amazing hearing about these Grey women. I am also a Gray but with an a. Originally our family name started with an e and no it is not a slave name passed down during slavery. I am a Gray by blood. Every slave story is the same. Anyway, that's another story for another day. I can trace my ancestry back to the early 1500s England. With that being said, the Gray women in my family are very head strong. We cherish the Gray name so much that many of us will hyphenated it before we drop it. 😁

[@HistorysForgottenPeople]

It's lovely to hear the headstrong nature passed its way down with the name, I love that! 😊

[@Mohammed16684]

Elizabeth hated them

[@HistorysForgottenPeople]

I think there were certainly personal feelings at play, but I do think a lot of it was fuelled by those around her - her advisors constantly nagged her about marriage, so it's not hard to imagine them saying things like, "If you don't get married and have a child, you'll have to name the Grey sisters as your heirs!" I think that probably turned her against them, and then when they got married secretly, it must have seemed as though they were working behind her back with Parliament. It doesn't excuse locking them up for several years at a time, of course! But it might go some way to explaining why she didn't seem to get on with them.

[@Mohammed16684]

@@HistorysForgottenPeopleyou right. But bottom line is Elizabeth is jealous and a hater. She pays homage and triumph them in death by paying for there exotic funeral, tomb stones. but while they’re alive she treated them poorly. Locking them up and subjugating there entire life. Back to the point you made she probably was fearful of them bc of political reasons but it don’t excuse how nasty vindictive her behaviour was to her family members.

[@HistorysForgottenPeople]

@@Mohammed16684 You could be right! We can certainly only ever second guess why someone centuries ago took the course of action they did, and her actions were seen even at the time as over-the-top. But was, in terms of punishments and cruelty, nowhere near the level of her father, and she brought stability to the country, so I think a lot of courtiers just accepted that's how she was and tried to keep their heads down! The funerals were certainly a little bit mocking, in that she laid on a lavish spectacle for public viewing, but personally probably wasn't that bothered about providing them. That's just my opinion from the evidence we've got, of course, she might genuinely have had regrets about how she treated them, and it was a way of doing something for their memory.

[@robertalpy]

Mary and Thomas' marriage would cause the queen no trouble by marrying. If anything Mary, marrying a commoner would lead ro her own children being excluded from the succession unless no other could assume the throne. Plus with the earlier usurpation of the grey family and the horrible cost, there is little chance that the greys could or would be so bold again in pressing their claim. Elizabeth's fury and at the marriages of her ladies seems at this late point solely out of jealousy because she could not risk love and wanted to destroy that gift in any around her who attained it when she could not. The petty viciousness of a teenage girl. Mixed with the degenerative effects of mercury and a steady gradual dose of lead took a petty jealousy and added the color of demented paranoia. She probably thought these poor young people were really trying to plot against her reign. I think had her vanity not led to her constantly poisoning herself, many of her ladies would have been spared the lives filled with anxiety they had to led on account of their queen. She would have known even at that time that led and mercury had terrible effects even if the wise of that time did not know why, they could assess the proofs of their eyes. I feel sad for the second Regnant Queen. She had perhaps reason to be fearful from her experience. That her fears were often unjustified had to be small comfort when the few plots there were, were so dangerous and word against her on the mainland so vitriolic. That and with the Cecils elder and younger whispering in her ear and the diabolical influence of the monster wallsingham, the queen had little chance to see beyond the bubble those men created around her to keep her in their power.

[@HistorysForgottenPeople]

I absolutely agree with you that I have sympathy on both sides of this too - the Grey sisters certainly didn't deserve their fate, but equally Elizabeth never really had a chance and did the best she could in an extraordinary position. I imagine if I was that paranoid, I might make some jealous, anxious snap judgements as well.

[@nancyhilliard1634]

The Tudors were all 🔩 nuts😢

[@HistorysForgottenPeople]

I think that might be true, but could be said of many royals in history! 😂 I suppose when you are brought up the way they were, your outlook on things is far less than normal, sadly.

[@lindawoody8501]

There are differing opinions as to whether the Grey/Gray family of Harwich who in later generations became descendants of Admiral Thomas Graves of Boston, USA, is the same family as Lady Jane Grey Queen of England briefly.

[@madhatter909]

I don't know who narrated this but I was out of breath just listening. A pause now and then would have been appreciated.

[@HistorysForgottenPeople]

I'll consider that for for my next video.

[@erinsabattis8623]

I felt the pauses were adequate, but that's just me. I really enjoyed the actual narrating voice a lot :)

[@madhatter909]

@@erinsabattis8623 there weren't any lol

[@mjrussell414]

@@madhatter909 I disagree - she observed the normal short pauses one would associate with punctuation in the written word. There is a lot of information presented however, so I can understand how it feels like a fast paced narration.

[@BeveC21E]

It kept me fascinated, I hadn't even noticed that of which your complaint centered around. Sorry you felt that way!

[@kimmccabe1422]

Beauty pays too high of a price. Even today. No thank you lol

[@annwilliams6438]

It seems that Elizabeth was jealous BUT also that she didn’t want ANY Grey offspring that could at any time make a play for the thrown. The Grey women could NOT be allowed to have children in a proper marriage - no matter how ‘low’ their husbands were.

[@HistorysForgottenPeople]

I certainly think there's a big element of that, yes. She was more furious with Katherine once she found out about the children, and I think she didn't want the complication of them.

[@gonefishing167]

Poor, poor girls. You hear so much of how wonderful Elizabeth was but she could be very cruel as well. Guess we had to live her life to understand 🙏🙏🙏🙏🙏🙏👵🇦🇺

[@HistorysForgottenPeople]

This is it - like you say, Elizabeth had two sides to her, but she was also in an incredibly difficult position.

[@Lulu-ut9pv]

Image if Mary was adopted by Elizabeth.... Plus the gray sisters where seen as a catch as they where in Henry 8th will Mary tudors descendants where to be next... not Margaret's line..

[@HistorysForgottenPeople]

I think Elizabeth had decided by the time she became queen that she was completely against the Grey family, and sadly that set the tone for everyone that came after. If she had adopted Mary in some fashion, or at least taken her closely under her wing, it might have been a smart way to appease everyone. But I think Elizabeth was just too afraid. And yes, the marriages of Katherine and Mary would have been a BIG deal, and I think a lot of Elizabeth's anger towards them came from not being able to use that to her advantage.

[@anitachambliss6094]

She had some of her parents temper alright!

[@COBO2]

Elizabeth seems to be a bit cruel here. She didn’t treat her cousins well did she.

[@HistorysForgottenPeople]

She certainly didn't! It would have been interesting to see what might have changed had she instead took them under her wing.

[@kathrynjordan8782]

Elizabeth didn't treat her cousins well. She's as ruthless as her father, my 14th Great Grand Uncle, King Henry VIII. And we think that Mary I has a bad reputation?

[@COBO2]

@@kathrynjordan8782 there all as equally as bad as each other.

[@areiaaphrodite]

She was her father's daughter. She was cruel and definitely held grudges for years.

[@heathermichael3987]

Talk about being on the front line . 🤯

[@BrokenneckYgor]

She had a very big head

[@HistorysForgottenPeople]

Someone else mentioned how strange that painting looked as well. I think it's a mixture of two things. At the time, it seems to have been the fashion to paint ladies' bodies slightly smaller than they really would be (especially when you look at miniatures). The other thing might be the fact she had a crooked spine - it kind of looks like her collar might have been designed to try and cover that up, and as a result, it makes her neck look almost not there, and makes her head look bigger than it should. If she had a big head in real life, I'm sure someone would have mentioned it, as they didn't mind being brutally honest about the rest of her appearance!

[@sassylillady1740]

Were these Grays related to Elizabeth Woodville's last living son with John Gray ...Thomas Gray?? Or descent from John Gray extended family???

[@HistorysForgottenPeople]

Yes, they were related - Elizabeth Woodville was Jane Grey's great-great-grandmother through both of her parents. 😊

[@raumaanking]

Imagine if Lady Jane Grey was never executed and she became the new queen of England in 1603 how would England have been like in your opinion

[@HistorysForgottenPeople]

That's an interesting question! Well, she would have been around 66 years old by then, so assuming she hadn't died in childbirth or illness, she would have been quite elderly to take up the post, for the time period. I think it probably would have been more likely that if everyone was happy to go with the Grey sisters as the next heirs, any children she might have had (especially any sons) would have been suggested instead. But if she didn't, like Elizabeth, have any children, it might have been tougher as I'm not sure anyone would have wanted Guildford Dudley to be regent or king if she died. But that could have been written into a contract somewhere that her heir would be Katherine's sons, perhaps. I think Jane might have been liked by that point for being Protestant, but it still would have been a tough ask as Elizabeth was very against any heirs proposed by Parliament. But having said that, I wonder if she would have preferred Jane Grey over James VI? Possibly not, since she had really wanted his mother to be heir, and I think Elizabeth felt she could trust James. It's hard to say how Jane would have run the country, as we only have her personality to go on - she didn't reign long enough to put anything into effect. I suppose she might have been less tolerant than Elizabeth on religion, as she made it quite clear her stance was Protestantism all the way, and I think it would have made life very difficult for Catholics. No moderate religious settlement would have been reached, as it was under Elizabeth. All of this is just my opinion, of course! Sadly, there's no way to really guess how it might have been, as there are so many variables that might have happened over the decades. Might Jane and Elizabeth have become friends? Might Jane being alive have pushed Elizabeth to not execute Mary, Queen of Scots, and instead she became Elizabeth's heir? Would Jane being alive during Mary I's reign have encouraged plots to depose Mary, and supposing one was successful, would Jane have been placed on the throne again? And of course, Jane's biggest problem was that the public just didn't know her at all, so she didn't have their support. It's hard to see how that might have changed.

[@kathrynjordan8782]

I really feel bad for the Grey sisters. First Catherine marries in secret and then her sister Mary does the same. Both did not get Elizabeth I's permission. Their older sister, Jane, paid the ultimate price when she was used as a pawn to take the crown from Edward VI sister Mary.

[@HistorysForgottenPeople]

They certainly had a lot of misfortune! But Mary at least had some independence of her own in the later years of her life, and a place she could call home, so I guess at least she had that.

[@andrewDaMack]

Not very smart was she? Why make the same mistake your sister made?

[@areiaaphrodite]

Damn, Elizabeth stayed on the Grey sisters' necks! 😅

[@HistorysForgottenPeople]

I think she stayed on a lot of necks! 😂 To counter that, Elizabeth always felt she was in a very precarious position, and it's possible in later years she privately regretted the actions she had taken in many cases.

[@areiaaphrodite]

@HistorysForgottenPeople I think so, too. She had paranoia, but it wasn't totally illogical. She was in a shaky position since both of her siblings tried to stop her from taking the throne, and on top of that, she was still w woman in a world where men would've been preferred. Yet I also think that she had a personal jealousy too for people in her inner circle who found love and could be married because she couldn't have the same to Robert Dudley, whom she clearly loved.

[@AthenaisC]

Info ... what happened to Lady Katherine Grey's sons?

[@HistorysForgottenPeople]

Not much! Which was probably both a relief for them and understandable. 😊 Edward Seymour married Honora Rogers, and they had children, and Thomas Seymour married Isabel Onley, but they had no children. Edward did technically have a claim to the throne under Henry VIII's will, but kept his head down instead of pressing it.

[@AthenaisC]

@HistorysForgottenPeople given what happened to the Duke of Monmouth, he played that just right. I did some reading last night and discovered the current Duke of Somerset is a direct descendent of Lady Katherine Grey. I also discovered that Frances Brandon had a sister who has living descendants. So it wasn't all a tale of woe, life did go on for those who lived quietly.

[@SyIe12]

👍⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐

[@michaeldelgiudice1057]

some of these monarchs were disgraceful. people and power-a bad combination.

[@leeannproctor2966]

Does Charles and Mary Brandon have any living descendants?

[@HistorysForgottenPeople]

Yes, I think they do, through the two sons Lady Katherine Grey had (although I'm not sure if the descendants are from one of both of the sons, off the top of my head). 😊

[@vickystevens5910]

Sadly they don't. Source: I've been an historian and curator for over 30 years.

[@sharylgrangaard8484]

What do you mean by highly intelligent and educated?By what standards?

[@HistorysForgottenPeople]

Going by the standards of what education we know she received (like her sisters), which was a mixture of languages, writing, literature and classics. The Grey sisters lived in a very brief period of Tudor history in which girls were actively given a good education, mostly inspired by Catherine of Aragon, who inspired the trend during Princess Mary's childhood.

[@kathrynjordan8782]

Not by our standards. It was by the standards of the time in which the Grey sisters lived. They received probably a better education than we do given they were taught languages (Latin, Greek, etc), writing, literature and classics. Sure, we get some of what they were given. We don't get languages like what the Grey sisters got.

[@Lovingitjuju]

Just like here you might have some decent president as far as certain things but terrible personalities, Elizabeth didn’t sound fun to be around 🤣🤣.. But I heard she was a great leader.

[@HistorysForgottenPeople]

I think that pretty much sums it up! Elizabeth was definitely one of the better monarchs of England, but I wouldn't like to have been friends with her.

[@baronessvondengler]

This chick played herself. Why marry secretly when that’s what got your own sister imprisoned? Such a waste.

[@HistorysForgottenPeople]

It is a mystery why Mary would watch her sister going through a punishment for marrying secretly, and then do the same thing. My best guess is she thought Katherine was imprisoned more for marrying someone who made her claim to the throne stronger, and she thought if she herself married someone socially lower, she wouldn't be punished.

[@inkedrain]

WTF did you do? Research this via Phillipa Gregory? Almost every single one of your Cousin's war videos seems to follow her books word for freaking word.

[@HistorysForgottenPeople]

No, I used actual research via journals and peer-reviewed books, not fiction. I've never read Philippa Gregory's books. It is possible she actually used some real history in them for once. Have you any actual points from the video you want to debate, or is this just a general attempt at an insult?