The Gay Buffy the Vampire Slayer Video

[@arrowheaded]

Glad that you listened to our title suggestions! Really excited to watch this :)

[@20000dino]

Well, she changed it now. I'm disappointed, the other one was better.

[@arrowheaded]

@@20000dino Ah yeah

[@LilySimpson]

the video was underperforming anyways so I decided to go with the one that I personally liked from the start but just for you I will change it to only 'The Gay Buffy Video"

[@arrowheaded]

@@LilySimpson This is the best day of my life :O Even if it was probably meant for 2000dino haha. Do what you feel is best. Hope the video does well, it was great (as always)!

[@20000dino]

@@LilySimpson Now I feel bad T_T I'm sorry Lilly, it's always your call at the end of the day.

[@gaysara]

You are a queer analysis machine

[@Sevenpuddingsx]

Absolutely unstoppable royalty

[@FatCharlie215]

Facts, I don't think anyone else could have gotten me through 10 hrs of Harry Potter analysis 😂❤

[@FrancisR420]

Both an analysis machine that's queer and analysis machine for queer things

[@merbst]

I could not have watched some of these shows if my life depended on it, but this channel's author is an analysis beast!

[@andthatsshannii]

As a storytelling teacher who battled with my own internal homophobia, I think there’s another aspect to the “Kill Your Gays” trope that people tend to overlook. It’s the whole “I’m going to make this character likeable to the audience but not important to the main plot”. They’re likeable because people want to be allies or (like me in the past) they want to present authentic characters. However, heteronormativity prevents the writer from making them a pivotal part of the plot or a vital character. So when you need to kill someone off who would make the audience feel emotional or make them realise the stakes, the gay character is a good bet. Since they’re likeable, it’s hard-hitting enough to have the desired emotional impact. Since they’re not an essential character, killing them off won’t grind the plot to a halt

[@muddlewait8844]

Amber Benson refusing to come back is my favorite creative decision made by an actor. She stopped Joss from being cruel and shitty in his chosen way to people he’d already hurt. Respect.

[@rascal_rae]

power move

[@johnwang9914]

Wasn't she just unavailable at the time. It might not be an actual decision. Sure we're hearing that it was a toxic work environment with Whedon now but it may not have been considered any more toxic than what you might expect with another gig at the time. Actors have always put up with a lot of nonsense compared with people with more secure employment though quite frankly even more secure employment used to come with a lot of abuse.

[@muddlewait8844]

@@johnwang9914 Well, it sounds from recent articles like it was some of both, and apparently she personally doesn’t think of Joss as cruel, at least not with his art and his audience, which is good to hear. But it sounds like she didn’t want Tara to come back as a villain, and whether or not that played any part in the decision, I applaud it. Joss may well be really thoughtful about the damage he may do with his work, but if so, he owes Amber and/or her schedule for saving him from making a sh--y mistake. I’m glad she didn’t walk away from whatever else she had going on for him.

[@edwardallenthree]

Off topic and a year later, but I just want to say that Ms. Benson wrote a few novels that aren't half bad.

[@NoodleBerry]

I think vampires, depending on age and origin, having undefined sexuality makes sense. If nothing else, living a few hundred years gives you plenty of time for “experimenting”

[@Peregrina]

Vampires are often used as exploration of sexuality. It's been speculated that the novel Dracula for example, was written as an exploration of predatory homosexual men. Bram Stoker were also speculated to be part of the gay scene. I believe he partly knew Oscar Wilde. Wilde in turn was known for writing queer texts and punished for homosexual acts, if I remember correctly.

[@rascal_rae]

imagine being straight for eternity... pass

[@maggiedk]

I didn't put together until watching this video that Tara's original storyline is that she was able to escape a family of abusive, misogynistic men who killed her mother, only to end up being randomly killed by another abusive, misogynistic man. How fucking depressing. Yet another reason for me to feel personally offended by the fact that they killed her off.

[@thebasedgodmax1163]

so gay characters on TV need to be kept alive and can't face any problems? the whole complaining about Tara being killed off would stand up much more if she was the only character killed off on the show.

[@maggiedk]

@@thebasedgodmax1163 what? I didn't even mention her being gay in this comment. That's its own issue, but I'm talking about how hurtful it is from the point of view of an abuse survivor - which I am- that her backstory was her escaping a cycle of abuse only to randomly be killed by another abuser. But I highly recommend you watch a video about the Bury Your Gays trope and why it's an issue (James Somerton has a good video about it). It's not "gay characters can't die or face any issues," the problem is the fact that so many shows end up killing off their ONLY gay character, often in brutal ways, and often only to move the storyline forward or progress another character's plot.

[@thebasedgodmax1163]

​@@maggiedk I misconstrued your point for a point I see commonly, I think you can understand where the mistake came from. I understand it's hurtful to you and I'm very sorry that happened to you and hope you're doing better, I'm just talking about it from a writing perspective. the Bury Your Gays trope IS indeed a problem, I just don't think it applies to Buffy because that show kills off so many characters. Tara isn't really singled out there, and Willow is still there. Although I may have misunderstood your point and apologise for any confusion, that's essentially what I was getting at, more so aiming at other critics.

[@paulhammond6978]

@@thebasedgodmax1163 That's basically what Lily said too - Willow and Tara was fridging rather than bury your gays - using Tara's death as inspiration for Willow to become the villain of that series. I think that analysis is basically sound - Tara's death falls in with Lily's criticism of Joss Wheedon as being good at development but bad at endings.

[@thebasedgodmax1163]

@@paulhammond6978 I find it funny that half the criticisms people throw at Buffy's controversial episodes are simply just TV Tropes entry names, because that site exists because of Buffy (not to criticise your point here btw). I don't really disagree with Lily and Whedon is a flawed writer (and a major flaw as a person.) but my point often comes from a dislike of people simply throwing out BURY YOUR GAYS at Tara's death, tis all, which then I misconstrued OP's point, hence why I commented. hope that makes sense

[@framemygaze]

Xander also constantly makes little references about being attracted to guys, especially in later seasons. I wish he was canonly bisexual. Xander: “No one is judging you. It's understandable. Spike is strong and mysterious and sort of compact, but well muscled.”

[@MicukoFelton]

And Xander was 100% turned on by Jonathan in that one episode where Jonathan was perfect to anyone.

[@averyguilbert6314]

I believe they were initially toying with Xander being gay instead of willow, so that makes sense!

[@dnlXIII]

when the girl whose ex who got turned into a demon worm she asks who of the group haven't had something going on, spike and xander share a very interesting look with each other.

[@marlaneperkins8175]

He really gave off repressed bisexual vibes.

[@erickisner8901]

In Booms Vampire Slayer comics Xander is gay and he and Spike have kind of a thing...

[@fearingmusic]

anya not being mentioned at the beginning of the video in the list of straight characters that we're not discussing today had me waiting the whole video for a queer anya analysis 😭

[@leverpress_]

Here for this

[@SometimestheY]

OK, as an elder queer who was a year older than the characters were in-universe when the show first aired: my feelings then, for what it's worth... I was an awkward, nerdy, artsy redhead who dressed weird and my best friend in high school was the blonde golden child. I related pretty hardcore to Willow. As a baby bi figuring out my own stuff and coming out, while they put out hints about Willow for years, I was so shocked and happy when they finally openly confirmed her non-straightness, and then immediately so betrayed and bummed when they went right ahead and pulled all the same bi-erasure and biphobia that we were dealing with from all quarters in the late 90s/early 2000s. I continued to watch and love the show, and still do, but I was sad. And didn't have the words or the media analysis for it back then, especially with all the mixed feelings I had since relatively positive queer rep of any kind was still so rare. Anyway, I appreciate that Buffy seems to be getting a renewed look back these days, and that we can all still enjoy the parts of it that have withstood the test of time and complain about the parts that haven't. And we can all agree that Kennedy was just the worst.

[@TacticusPrime]

I remember watching "The Yoko Factor" episode and seeing Giles playing the guitar. Tara's reaction is "Huh, he's pretty good." Willow is clearly into it and says straight out that she used to have a crush for him. I think that was close as they could get to clearly saying that Tara is a lesbian and Willow is bi.

[@flootzavut30daychallenge]

Kennedy is one of the characters I knew fandom disliked and so I went into S7 determined to like her, a tactic that works 99% of the time. Kennedy... Kennedy is in the 1% 😔

[@SometimestheY]

@@flootzavut30daychallenge every time I see a clip from s7 I go in thinking, you know, maybe that was just the early 2000s misogyny/homophobia/general ickiness getting to me and I should give her another chance. And then she's still just, so so irritating.

[@jessesloan864]

The way the new slayers were portrayed, as very inexperienced, I felt uncomfortable with Willow/Kennedy. It felt like a teacher and her student to me.

[@ItsJesMe]

I always loved the Xander/evil-willow scene & even just hearing about it and seeing the clips had me in tears. I loved that it was powerless him and powerful friendship that brought this unfathomable entity back down to earth. I think this still works better than if it'd been "the spirit of Tara" because then she's still dealing with problems by investing all of herself in Tara. When people deal with loss, they have to find new reasons (or rediscover old reasons) to keep going. And I think having it be Xander tethers her back to the rest of her life, before, and now after, Tara.

[@Becclabee]

To me, the fact, that Xander helped Willow to process her grief also means, that love and compassion are not necessarily connected to romantic love.

[@Sophie_Cleverly]

I agree, I found it more comforting as someone who has experienced loss. Because death is final in our universe, but I can deeply relate to having a friend showing you compassion and reminding you that there is something to live for.

[@WaywardAce420]

Regarding Larry, this is a headcanon that I will never let go of. Larry didn't die, he was paralyzed. When the medics got him to the hospital, he met a handsome young intern named Erik who was working toward becoming a physical therapist. He worked with Larry, he was patient, but also didn’t stand for Larry feeling sorry for himself and called him out on it when necessary. Erik was in Larry’s hospital bedroom following the surgery, and Larry’s grandmother expressed her obvious approval. The months went by, Larry was getting better and better, until one day he stood up out of his wheelchair, got down on one knee, and asked Erik to marry him. Erik cried as he knelt down and pulled out a ring from his own pocket. They got married, adopted children, and lived out the rest of their years together, far, far, FAR away from Sunnydale.

[@dotchi1356]

I absolutely love that head canon, thank you so much. I think They watch Football together as a family and get very passionate about it ❤️

[@randallflagg3700]

Uh, laurenfrey, three things we have to talk about. One, Larry's gay. Two, Larry's dead. And three, high school's ... kinda over.

[@WaywardAce420]

@@randallflagg3700 on the one hand, I do understand the reference, well done. On the other hand, (covers ears and walks away) lalalalalalala Larry didn’t die, he was paralyzed. When the medics got him to the hospital he met a handsome intern named Erik…

[@randallflagg3700]

@@WaywardAce420 - I hear you 😁When that episode aired, I also didn't think that a small fall like that would kill Larry the G.O.A.T... Glad he's somewhere safe with Erik. (the Mayor's snake demon body looked so badass and scary the first time I saw that finale live, I'll never forget that first impression)

[@sylvieseeker5892]

This brought back memories. My father and I would watch Buffy together, it was a shared love. But then Tara and Willow changed things. That representation could have led to me wondering why I related to these women so much and coming to a lot of realizations earlier. Instead it became my first explicit experience with my parents' queerphobia and something I learned to hide and view with shame.

[@Mecharnie_Dobbs]

Another reason many prefer Faith and Buffy: It's hidden.

[@Rmlohner]

There was one more time Larry was mentioned: after Amy finally gets turned back to human after she was a rat since midway through Season 3, she asks about Larry as she'd had a crush on him, to which Willow replies "Okay, one, Larry's gay, and two, Larry's dead." And of course, putting such a flippant line onto another queer character doesn't help at all.

[@marocat4749]

Yeah larry is rather positive. Ys he was rarely involved in anything,butheexited,and was killed. Als he would have been a way more interesting vampire than harmony. Oh i would preferred that apearently xander or willow would have been gay and idont see why not both. Like given ander being super insecure toxic would have made that failing and toxic attempts, rather interesting.Like iccan bhind sometims nice sometimes toxic and insecure. It makes him less just shitty and more shitty tocompensate and has todeal with,yeah. I would prefer that. Also have bi willow and gay xander.

[@MicukoFelton]

As a queer person I found that part funny. And it's nice it's said casually, it'd be great to live in a world where being queer isn't a big deal and can be mentioned casually.

[@andrewparker2228]

He was also one of the white hats in the Dopplegangland episode, but it's kind of a blink and you'll miss it appearance

[@heathernks8]

All I could think about was the infamous episode "Smashed", too, lol, when Amy asks about going to the dance with him: Willow: "Uh, Amy, three things we have to talk about. One, Larry's gay. Two, Larry's dead. And three, high school's ... kinda over." Amy: "How long was I in the cage?"🤣 As a bi GenXer who watched in real time when it aired, I laughed then, just like I chuckle now. He wasn't the core cast, so it didn't bother me much, but not a lot does.🤷🏻‍♀️

[@samrobotsin]

When producers say they wanted to make one of the characters gay, i think it would have been Xander if Emma Caulfield left the show suddenly the way Seth Green did. Much in the way Gunn became a main character in Angel when Doyle left suddenly. Much like adding a black character 90s studios execs wouldn't have allowed a guy character if it was part of the initial season pitch

[@muireannmc1056]

As a bisexual woman who binge watched all 7 seasons of my friends boxsets at a young age, I just couldn't appreciate the wlw representation because it felt like it came at the cost of acknowledging I could even exist. All of my friends insisted she was a lesbian not bisexual but I had spent three seasons watching her crush on, date and love men. I had really liked early Willow/Oz and I hated that that was distorted at the expense of her relationship with Tara. I could have enjoyed that so much more if they had been allowed to go ahead and make her bisexual but I spent so much of their relationship still confused and reeling a bit from three seasons of story arc essentially being a "lie"

[@MicukoFelton]

Yes, this! I argued with a lot of people about it, they kept on insisting she's a lesbian. But no, she's clearly been attracted to a lot of men - Oz, Xander, Giles, Dracula, etc etc. She was a bisexual.

[@editaudioaesthetic]

yes, they only did this so that xander wouldn't be expected as endgame

[@metronicmagician1816]

SAME! I ran through the whole Buffy and Angel series a few years back for the first time with some friends, and I swore Willow was bi because so much of her experience was hand in hand my experience. I then got shot down because no she wasn’t bi, and my friends were annoyed at how pissed off I was that she wasn’t. Like you said her lesbianism came at the cost of me being able to exist. Also her falling out of love with Oz wasn’t her realizing she didn’t love men, but was instead Oz getting character assassinated, and her being sad about it until willow popped in. I know Joss is really bad at not character assassinating people, but damn he did Oz so dirty.

[@yuriconnoisseurs]

Comphet exist babes, why call someone bi when they themselves insist they are not. Even in the later comics, she never feels anything for men and continues dating only men.

[@beatofromuminekorealnotcli4574]

2:08 Maybe this is addressed later in the video, but there is at least a little substance for queer Giles. He and Ethan had some pretty deliberate subtext.

[@AliceOfSherwood]

I am that Alice you gave a fright

[@aster471]

me too, we must stand strong

[@BlueRoseFaery]

At around 30:00 you mention Oz freaking out at Tara about Willow & her being in love, and it being about them being lesbians. But I always interpreted that as more him being freaked out about cheating. He says "She never said anything to me like that, we talked all night and she never" (mentioned it) and then he gets angry. He seems like he's stumbling over his words a bit. Him and Willow had a rocky relationship with both parties cheating, and I'd assume part of his self regulation introspection journey has been about that, and now he might have unwittingly been apart of cheating again? Probably that's giving him too much credit, but I always read it as at least partially about cheating.

[@butterflypooo]

I just assumed it was his own jealousy and embarrassment of not knowing - and not homophobic at all.

[@zemoxian]

@@butterflypooo Yeah. I like Oz and it has never occurred to me that it was homophobia. I just thought he assumed she was hetero because of past history and she wasn’t out yet. Xander doesn’t even learn about Willow and Tara’s relationship until a later episode. Otherwise he would have said something when asked by Oz. I didn’t see it as having to do anything with cheating either because his and Willow’s relationship was effectively over. Willow not being ready to out herself to an ex is perfectly understandable. So I always understood it as surprise. He thought he had a sure thing of sliding back into his old life with Willow and school and he suddenly realized something new was going on in Willow’s life that he wasn’t prepared for. A lot like Buffy’s initial shock only he had a lot more invested in getting back to Willow. That being said I do realize that I’m a lot more queer-positive than society as a whole and as a cis het-ish person I’m probably a bit naive as to who people feel about the subject. Like I tend to view queer characters as just normal people and when tragic things happen to them on shows where tragic things tend to happen I’m not sensitive to how it would be received or what background considerations went into the story making process. At the time, Larry’s death hurt simply because he was a likable character. It was a heroic death which would normally be cool on a show like this. However, learning later about the bury your gays trope adds a sickening social spin to his story. I’m still at 23:44 so I haven’t gotten to the fridge your gays section of the video that I suspect is coming. Up until a few years ago I would have folded the negativity into the time period the media came out. I would have assumed that social progress would continue to be made. Though to be honest I’ve been surprised at how much more backward social progress was compared to where I thought it was. Now that social progress is backsliding it’s even more troubling than I realized.

[@butterflypooo]

@@zemoxian I completely agree w u about Oz's reaction as him hoping he could slide back into Willow's life (otherwise, their reconnection was going really well) but not realizing that he was missing a huge piece of what was going on in her life. I'm saying this as a queer trans man, and I never picked up on any homophobia in that scene. Having said that, I know it definitely *seems* like social progress is going backwards, but I have to ultimately disagree. There has actually been so much social progress in the last few years alone that it is terrifying to those who take advantage of a cis het white privilege and they are now starting to sense that they're losing power. Hence, they are doubling down on fascism out of fear of what the future holds ... but I don't think it'll work. Sure, there are cases where it seems to work, but there are also instances where they are being shot down in ways that just wouldn't have been conceivable 5 or 10 years ago. It really blows my mind. Public opinion is shifting and more and more people are opening their minds to the beauty of all sorts of diversity (not just racial, but sexual, gender, neurodiversity, ability, etc.). I have hope.

[@editaudioaesthetic]

he was gone for so long i thought he meant he never thought she would be in a relationship, that she would wait for him and to be fair she never made anything clear.

[@multiplemysteries5242]

Yeah, it never read as homophobic too me, just surprise that unfortunately led two him triggering his wolf form (that's what happens right? sorry, it's been a long time since I';ve watched that episode)

[@Girl4Music]

Your point about Joss Whedon’s ideology popping in and out of the queer narrative in Buffy is definitely a solid one. I’m pretty freaking sure Willow wouldn’t have double date-raped Tara (or at the very least THAT SCENE would have been called out as date-rape in the narrative) if it wasn’t Whedon, who clearly didn’t understand the implications behind it, that wrote it. Non-addressed rape/sexual assault is a common occurrence throughout all of the Buffyverse. Especially in Whedon-written episodes. So it’s impossible not to put the blame for it on him.

[@anonmouse6337]

Except Tara was very disturbed with what Willow had done and broke up with her over it, in a Whedon written episode, no less. I don't see the need to spoonfeed the audience.

[@Girl4Music]

@@anonmouse6337 no, she said that what Willow did to her was a mental violation. She never mentioned anything about her body. She never referred to it as rape/sexual assault but it should have been acknowledged for that because it very much was. Tara had not given her consent for Willow to go down on her. Yes; she was disturbed but the narrative never really makes it clear as to why.

[@anonmouse6337]

@@Girl4Music I don't think it's as black and white as you're making it out to be. Tara did consent to sex. She wasn't mind controlled, she was just lied to, essentially. Say you found out your partner cheated. You wouldn't have slept with them had you known they betrayed you, so their behaviour was immoral. But is that rape?

[@Girl4Music]

@@anonmouse6337 there’s much more to it than just a lie. Tara’s mentality is altered. She only sleeps with Willow under the influence. She doesn’t remember the fight they had that left her angry and disappointed because Willow wiped it from her memory. Any sexual intimacy between them regardless whether Tara asked for it or not is non-consensual because Tara’s autonomy is disregarded. Willow disregards Tara’s informed consent and knowingly performs cunnilingus on her while Tara is under her spell. It’s the magic-equivalent of drink/drug-induced date-rape.

[@anonmouse6337]

@@Girl4Music It's not equivalent at all. Drugs and alcohol impairs your ability to think and make judgements. They lower your inhibition and some increase sexual desire. That's why we deem those under the influence unable to consent. Tara was lucid and able to make judgements as clearly as she normally would. The spell did not alter her state of mind, only her perception of Willow. It's at the same level as Parker misleading Buffy as to who he was to get her to have sex with him.

[@darthcass1210]

So i kind of want to talk about Kennedy a little bit and something that at least to me just feels incredibly insidious that isnt really talked about. 1. Is the aspect that she's not white, in fact her actress is mexican and shes very evidently darker skinned. Now obviously just because a character isnt white doesnt mean you have to like them but i do think Kennedy is very emblematic of one of the larger Buffy problems out there that this video understandably doesnt cover. Joss Whedon and and the buffy writing staff are so fucking shit at writing non-white characters. I mean it isnt until season 7 that there's a main opening credits character thats not white (I love u Robin Wood, underappreciated character who deserved better) and he is not treated with the same care or respect by the writers of any other main character. I really get the sense that Kennedy was just written as a band-aid first and not a character which way to do a non-white lesbian character dirty. The second aspect i want to talk about with Kennedy is a fact that didnt come to light until after time on buffy. Her actress Iyari Limon is bisexual and again im just so disgusted at the fact that the queer character actually played by a queer actress is the one that got treated as a band-aid and is vehemently hated by a majority if people due to bad writing. You rughtfully place the blame on joss whedone for Kennedy's handling which is greta but i just wanted to throw my two cents supporting Iyari Limin because jesus christ she was dealt such a shitty hand in buffy that she didnt deserve

[@literaterose6731]

👏🏽👏🏽👏🏽👏🏽 Thank you!!

[@Kriseiri]

Larry wouldn't sting quite so much if he wasn't the only unambiguous MLM representation in the whole darn series 😔

[@kyleellis1825]

Didn't he die with a flamethrower in hand? A little too on the nose with him being flaming.

[@yugonostalgia8961]

There's the Cameraman in season 7 but idk if he's exactly good representation

[@loalapine9298]

Andrew is also MLM rep in Buffy, i don't know why everyone forgot about him? And he survives the series finale (which was an achievement because even Anya died in that battle :( )

[@foxesofautumn]

As a young queer I needed Willow and Tara. It’s sad there was so much pressure on them because they were the only ones. Their loss wasn’t just a (solid) storyline, it was a desert.

[@Darkrose517]

It shocked me a little that you don't consider Giles to be a queer character. I know it wasn't technically canon, but Giles and Ethan definitely had a thing when they were younger. All of their interactions scream resentful exes. I think I've seen this opinion so much in the fandom that it took me off guard that we weren't including him, lol. I tend to put him in the same category as I do Faith, 'the vibes were there, they just didn't say it'.

[@Leafsdude_]

And there's that moment in A New Man where Ethan seems to be coming on to Giles, who seems almost pleasantly shocked, but then it turns out he was talking to the waitress.

[@literaterose6731]

Oh, so. much. THIS. That Giles and Ethan had a thing in their badass rebel youth is a hill I will die a thousand deaths on. There is just *way* too much chemistry between them to ignore. 😎 Also, it is canon (in half a throwaway line near the very end of Angel the series) that Spike and Angel had at least one tryst, so thankfully I don’t have to die to hold that hill!

[@theevilflamingskull]

22:19 another one i noticed was a little throw away line i forgot what episode it was but it's when willow's mum finds out she's been learning witchcraft and it's kind of like a joke because it's framed like her being accidentally outed (she says stuff like "it's not a phase mum! being a witch is who i am!") stuff like that

[@kinkin3981]

was so excited to hear your thoughts on Andrew 😭 pt 2!

[@charleston1789]

Yes! Part 2! Andrew, ALL of the subtext of the Evil Nerd Trio, the fact that Xander was written as another potential queer character instead of Willow, plus a deeper dive into the vampires and demons!

[@Weird0W]

Grew up watching Buffy and I'm still not sure how I came away thinking it was a VERY gay show, but my mom (who was the big Buffy fan) missed pretty much everything that wasn't explicitly said. She really likes the Riley romance plotline, which has to be like my least favorite romantic interest.

[@omegahaxors9-11]

You know when you have a good friend and they talk about something they're passionate about and you don't even remotely care what they're talking about but you still listen because you're invested in the level of passion? That's this video.

[@asliwins337]

The idea that vampires are actually demons that replace the person is something said but really not shown. All the evidence we see shows the person isn't replaced, they're just soulless, and the "demon" really seems more metaphorical in the case of vampires.

[@rmsgrey]

Yeah, particularly with the Angel/Angelus revolving soul door, while the two are different personalities, they also have a lot in common, and appear to regard each other as the same person as themselves. Angelus is what happens when Angel stops reining in his own dark impulses, not a separate person. And I'm pretty sure that what Angel was about to say wasn't "actually I think normal Willow is kinda gay too" but "actually, the vampire is a version of the original person, so they can tell you something about them"

[@omolisa3783]

Yeah, I recently saw a video essay by "Five by Five takes" about this topic! She had some really interesting arguments in favour of vampirism not being possession. One of my favourites was that Darla gets turned a second time and no one questions whether the same demon possessed her & she acts just like the previous Darla would

[@xilj4002]

Agreed, but the characters I want to point to are Spike and Drusilla. Because Spike might be a ruthless badass who takes out slayers or anyone else for fun, but he's also the ultimate tormented lovesick puppy and I'm pretty sure he never stopped writing his sappy poems. And Dru's soft eccentricity and the insanity Angelus tortured her into before turning her was still there when we last saw her. So we have that, and Darla turning and coming back, and the Liam-Angelus-Angel patterns - it seems like the demon is in a blank state taking on and twisting the original personality traits and memories

[@diamond_dynamo2214]

I've been so fucking excited for this since you first mentioned it, hell yes Tara was genuinely a big part of my journey to figuring out that I'm both trans and sapphic, but also I acknowledge that the show's deeply flawed, so I won't be upset if you're really harsh lol

[@ALtheuncommonicedragon8360]

Cordelia, Xander, & Giles actually was confirmed as queer in varying forms. Giles was said to be bi by one of writers & have been in love with Ethan Rayne in past. In recent comics Cordelia in an elseworld story was kissing Buffy & were girlfriends, also Xander is shown as bi in recent vampire slayer run, having a crappy boyfriend he hates while growing romantic feelings for Spike, and it was up in air in original show in making Xander gay instead of Willow, which ground work is still present in his interactions with Riley.

[@Oliviathespud]

“I will always fine a way to reference that trans shit babyyyy” She’s just like me fr

[@Sapphykins]

thank you for talking about joyce! so much analysis of the show accepts the 'joyce as good and loving parent' bait and switch from season 5 at face value and just forgets stuff like joyce throwing buffy out. it's bizarre to me how often people are baffled when i say i hate her. it would be one thing if she got called out on it, but no-one in world or on the writing team seem to be aware that what she's doing is wrong, it's so frustrating!

[@SebastianSeanCrow]

1:08:35 I wouldn’t say forhead kisses are romantic in any context but they show a level of care and desire to nurture etc that can take place in any relationship

[@mercurialcelestial]

i don’t think it’s impossible for willow to be a lesbian or for her to have been struggling with compulsory heterosexuality earlier in the story and i think it’s harmful to top all of the nuance of her experience up to be “she’s actually bisexual, they just didn’t want to say it.” i’m moving through buffy extremely slowly and i’m not even at the point where i know willow begins to realize she’s a witch and really get into her powers and start to get into girls (bc i know she does, seen a ton of spoilers) and while it’s important to bring up bisexual erasure in general because it’s a major issue that will probably always be an issue, it’s also important to identify how nuanced and unnecessary this debate is. to start, labels don’t account for nuance. there’s significantly more conversation now regarding compulsory heterosexuality then there was when this series aired. it’s not the craziest idea in the world that willow never really wanted to be with guys but just felt like that was her only option living in a heterosexual world. her possibly not voluntarily wanting to date guys and feeling like it was what she had to do doesn’t mean she didn’t love or care for oz, but it pushes the question: would she have dated him if she didn’t possibly feel compelled to? hell if i know, this is all speculation. being bisexual or lesbian or even queer is more than the label placed on a person. all we know for sure is willow wlw queer witch icon and i’m thankful that this is confirmed information because it doesn’t have to be. to continue, none of us get to decide whether willow is bi or a lesbian (unless we’re writing fanfiction, and on that tip, to each their own lmao) and the labels shouldn’t matter more than the fact that she’s openly. visibly. and undisputedly Queer. i came into this wanting to valiantly defend the willow lesbian agenda but as i wrote this i realized 2 things: i could be wrong, and it shouldn’t matter because willow has always been her queer witchy wlw self. i’ve always appreciated her as a character. who she is matters more to me than the imperfect labels we toss on her identity. i understand the excitement of wanting someone to be exactly what you are bc i’m queer and i want people to be exactly what i am but whether or not someone can 100% identify with you isn’t more important than how they move in the world and the things they say and do. i love willow because..she’s willow. it’s okay to love people/characters/whatever just because they are who they are. being queer is more than a label. and willow is more than any label we could ever craft for her

[@theMoporter]

Everyone here is broadly on the side of sapphic Willow. That's not up for debate. While I 100% support viewing comp-het as a headcannon for basically any character that isn't confirmed to be bi (or pan, poly etc.), it's important to take into account the context that Willow was written to be lesbian specifically because of societal biphobia. I know how frustrating it is because the opposite also happens when heteronormativity swings the other way. How many times has a perfectly good lesbian character ended up falling for man because the producers demanded it? The existence of lesbian Willow isn't biphobic, but the circumstances of Willow's lesbian characterisation are concerning and harmful, and that needs to be discussed. It's not an attack on you.

[@Faith_simp___]

Unlike the majority of buffy fans, I didn’t grow up with buffy, I’m in my teens right now and I wasn’t even born when it first aired, but my mom made me watch it recently and I loved it so much especially Tara and willow relationship and faith character I loved hearing your opinion about it also the whole video and analysis was amazing ❤

[@SebastianSeanCrow]

20:10 I always really appreciated Oz’s response to willow and Tara. When I saw it it felt very validating. He acted the same as he would if Tara was a man basically. I do not however like the whole Tara has brain damage thing at the end. Idek what to do with that

[@butterflypooo]

I agree w u about his reaction to Willow and Tara. It normalizes their relationship and if anything, he just seems jealous and embarrassed that he didn’t know. It’s too bad he left the show after but I’m guessing Seth Green didn’t want to stick around.

[@cc4670]

​seth green was doing a whole lot during that time. Austin Powers, buffy, family guy. He was really popping during those years.

[@SebastianSeanCrow]

@@cc4670 don’t forget scooby doo! He was the love interest for Velma in the second movie lol

[@partycitydumpster]

You mentioned the attempted recovery of the show's queer reputation in season 7 with Kennedy, but I just wanted to point out a theme that I appreciate on rewatches. And that's the return of the magic-as-drugs metaphor back to magic-as-gay-love with Willow's arc that season. Willow's foray into darkness and loss of Tara instills a lot of shame and fear into her view of her identity as a witch and as a queer person (stay with me here). She recognizes that it's not something she can rid herself of, so she tries to negotiate with it by becoming really self-restricting and anxious all the time. Kennedy's flirting bumps up against this bottled up magic/queerness, which Willow is holding onto all season for survival in the face of overwhelming guilt, fear, and grief. The Killer in Me obviously plays into this with Willow finally processing her grief and perceived culpability in Tara's death. I agree that the Amy thing is dumb (I think the way they handled Amy in general is dumb) but it does work within this theme because Willow is not responsible for what happened. It is purely her guilt that manifests Warren instead of someone else, but her own magic (ie queerness) was not (this time) the cause of the transformation, it was external. Just like Tara's death was not finalized by Willow's moving on and unclenching of her grip on her own sexuality/power, she was killed by an external force (Warren) outside of Willow's control and the rhelm of magic. Touched also deals with Willow's fear of intimacy and losing control of her magic by "losing control" of herself sexually, from having sex with Kennedy. Though the fact that Kennedy is kind of the antithesis of magic alludes to more of a "magic doesn't need to be a part of your queer experience or sex" thing, I think it is still a positive (though not the final) step in Willow's s7 journey to reaccepting herself. The final step is turning the slayers in the finale, empowering and liberating women around the world to their full (gay) potential. And then her little "that was nifty" line afterwards feels like an allusion to the drugs thing, like it's now relatively harmless to experience a little of that high now, although maybe that was some post-coital magic bliss too! I think the lack of chemistry between Willow and Kennedy distracted us so much that people don't really see all of this, which is both sad and hilarious.

[@EveryFairyDies]

Granted, I'm a CIS straight white woman, but I always read Oz's anger at Willow and Tara not as being due to Willow being bi, but because at no point did Willow ever mention to him that she was involved with someone new. As Oz says, they talked all night and Willow never mentioned it; Willow kind of lead him on by failing to mention she had someone new, thereby giving him the impression that he still had a shot with her. His anger came from being rejected by the woman he'd worked so hard to improve himself for and her not having the guts to tell him it was too late.

[@2cat4life]

thisss

[@WaywardAce420]

Honestly, the reason that I hate the fact that it was Xander who got to save the day at the end of season six is was in that very episode he told Dawn what Spike tried to do to Buffy in Seeing Red. If he had put it in a way that was more along the lines of “look I know you like him, but trust me, he’s dangerous,” and Dawn kept pushing, then I would’ve been more forgiving. But he said it in such a callous, tactless, and spiteful way so I am left to say how dare he, how fucking dare he take away Buffy’s right to decide when she was going to tell Dawn, if she wanted to tell her period. On top of that, he said “is this blind spot a generic trait with Summers women,” which is not only victim blaming Buffy, but dragging their dead mother into it??? Fuck. Xander. Harris.

[@alorapendrak9752]

Honestly I always read angel's comment as the watcher's council is full of shit and the demon doesn't actually process the body its just the release a human's inhibitions as a vampire. I also heard that joss and his team often went back and forth on the facts of their own vampire lore. Joss really pushed for the utterly evil vampire/ demon idea but apparently, others weren't fans of it.

[@fearlessknits1]

So glad you gave Larry his due ☺️

[@celinelia8127]

29:29 i think it was more like taking non-consensual steps in (ANY) relationship. Willow basically roofied Tara.

[@Merlin3623w]

As someone who spent my pre-teens watching Buffy the vampire Slayer with my best friend (who I didn't realize i was in love with), the character Willow was a really big deal to me

[@aliceblanchette1291]

Its me I'm the guy named Alice who got the fright of their life!

[@mickaelbalta1050]

Literally finished the series two days ago. Can't wait to watch your video ❤

[@Hamokk]

A banger video once again Lily! As a Pansexual Non-Binary it has baffled me that straight people don't have good idea of queer sexuality unless it's hard gay or lesbian. Also when there is a Bisexual character they are almost always some flavor opf evil. I've not watched Buffy for years but I remember loving it as a kid. Buffy and Xena were the main badass female heroes in the 1990's.

[@paulhammond6978]

I think it's more about ignorance to straight people - gay and lesbian are the easiest first steps. It could also be caution and underestimating the audience. And bisexual erasure is not only a problem for the straights.

[@soniaiboyako4023]

I think not including Cordelia, Xander and Giles as queer characters is so interesting. And i personally only really care about Cordelia among them but still, i think there's plenty of subtext (or even straight up text) on the other two as well

[@trinaq]

Thanks for this video, Lily, I've always been a huge Buffy fan. I hated how they succumbed to the "Bury your Gays" tropes by killing off Tara. It was apparently supposed to spark off Dark Willow's story arc, but they could have accomplished it better, in my opinion. Amber Benson would have returned, only she had a scheduling conflict.

[@ALtheuncommonicedragon8360]

The comics actually just did Dark Willow arc even better than show without killing off Tara or anyone else at all

[@piroshi3rd]

I know you're not much of a video game analyzer but I would be fascinated by your impressions on Bayonetta, on the topic of witches and lesbianism. I feel she is very queer-coded.

[@coltonmartin5057]

Larry died a hero. As bury your gays go, it's not the worst way to go about it.

[@bronzeecho]

yeah kennedy is characterized poorly and she barely has a whiff of chemistry with willow (in that scene where willow feels guilty about moving on alyson hannigan is giving the performance of her life and kennedy is giving “that’s rough buddy”) but i just can’t bring myself to dislike kennedy bc she’s really really hot and i am but a simple gay

[@liallialcroc]

sometimes i get an hour into these videos and turn my back for a second from the screen then see you saying/doing the most out of no where things and i love it, specially at 1 hour and 16 minutes in

[@willw6504]

I don't really like the 'Spirit of Tara' idea. Instead, if I could fan-fic repair that episode... I'd have Xander be the one who dies. Instead of hesitating, he steps in front of Buffy and takes three in the chest, the last shot after he falls hitting Buffy. Tara and Willow, hearing the shots, rush outside, and while attempting to save Xander and Buffy, Willow rips away all of Tara's powers, leaving her 'useless' the rest of the arc until she is the one who talks Willow down. It isn't perfect, but better than what we got.

[@freyab5066]

THIS IS THE VIDEO IVE BEEN WAITING FOR MY WHOLE LIFE

[@ryanratchford2530]

Never watched Buffy but like your channel. So here's a like and comment.

[@warelf97]

Thank you Lily I have needed this video for so long

[@richardallen144]

No Scott Hope or Andrew? I want the five hour version.

[@froggy-tq6xk]

OOOF, Andrew is some messy discourse.

[@richardallen144]

@@froggy-tq6xk That's why we love him.

[@Eluthane]

Damn we're just talking about Lerry and I'm already crying.

[@chickwithbricks]

This was exhaustive and i mean that in a very good way. I had to let go of bisexual Willow. Maybe that's something she has yet to discover about herself, but end if the day she gets to decide how she identifies and she's very clear in the second half of the show that she is gay, for women, and not men. Thanks Lily for a great video, and thanks Eliza Dushku for making Fuffy happen the way it did.

[@loftus4453]

So glad you chose this show! I love Buffy video essays - and I love your essays! Looking forward to this one. Thanks!

[@leahharlann]

Lily, unless you're willing to do a 'brief' look video for Riverdale (which I would totally watch fwiw) there's so much material that you'll need SEVERAL episodes to cover all the nonsense of that show 😂

[@dragonetafireball]

I feel like I now need to go watch some buffy to give me context for this video

[@Juiceharlot]

Willow being helped by love from someone reminds me of when Piper being helped by Paige after Prude dies.

[@tinkergnomad]

😲🤯 I was actually at the 2011 Dragon*Con, and met Nicholas Brenden in an elevator.

[@aliceroussy4971]

YES THANK YOU I'VE BEEN WAITING FOR THIS ONE

[@andrewparker2228]

I will die on the hill that Willow should have gotten together with Faith in season 7 instead of Kennedy

[@EmoBearRights]

I'll join you there although transfering Fred for that purpose would have been cool too.

[@lionqueen145]

I didn't watch the show until much later in life. I felt nostalgic an decided to watch the whole show, maybe when I was finishing high school. However, I still remembered being in elementary school and watching half the episodes waiting for the next show. I didn't have a lot of context of what was happening a part from being about magical creatures that we have to deal with, however, I still remember being a kid and getting surprised by the lesbian couple. I find it funny that when I got to truly watched it this was one of the only thing I remembered, that Willow had a boyfriend who was a werewolf but later got a girlfriend.

[@mk-aka-morgan8386]

I’ll be honest, I haven’t actually watched this show 👀 but it’s one of my younger sisters favorite shows and she rewatches it constantly

[@BryonyClaire]

I've only recently come across your channel but I love your videos so much, and fully agree with your take on Xander being the right choice for getting Willow to not destroy everything. This is such a good video (all of yours are)

[@DiM2404]

Thanks. I thought I'd stopped having feelings about Buffy and here you go making me have all these feelings again.

[@EmoBearRights]

There's a really good video that actually illustrates that vampires are more a case of through a glass darkly than possession of corpse and their memories.

[@Floss.1e]

new found respect for larry omg also great vid

[@turtlezen4292]

Good Buffy analysis is so satisfying. Thank you. I enjoyed every minute of this. I really liked how you talked about that queer subtext can exist without the intent of the creator. If you ever dip your toe into the 15 years worth of Supernatural I would love your take on Dean Winchester. Larry and Tara were wronged.

[@roninfredricson6958]

It was so funny when I watched Buffy for the first time a few months ago and they did that witch spell thing between Willow and Tara because it accidentally so well encapsulated how mystified society is with lesbian sex. Not that there are SUPER graphic sex scenes in Buffy but you get to see people naked under covers sweaty and make comment like "I'm going home! ... As soon as my legs start working." But they get a weird fully clothed magic tantric thing that I KNOW is because they're magic and it's not REALLY sex it's a spell but still just feels like the writers don't know what lesbian sex is and they're too afraid to ask.

[@olived9560]

INCREDIBLE VIDEO!! Loved the OMWF clips in each tile card, and really in-depth analysis!

[@juliannacoulman6032]

Lily, this has been in my watch later for MONTHS. I've been waiting till I finished Buffy, great video (as always)!!

[@Magis_Ghast]

I wish you'd covered Andrew, but I do love what you said here. You make a lot of points I agreed with already but didn't have the words to express

[@Sophia-vk5bq]

Funny kind of related story, my grandma was like "it would be fine if you're gay" when I was up visiting her. I didn't have the heart to tell her I'm a woman. And ACE. 😅

[@Shinisoup]

I was not prepared for Giles finding Ms Calendar today and now it's 10am and I'm crying.

[@MariaThereseC]

just watched this recently and said "FINE ill sign up for another hulu free trial and rewatch buffy again" this is so so good. if u ever revisit this topic i would love to hear abt giles and ethans bitter divorce

[@EmoBearRights]

There's an excellent 5 by 5 takes video about how Willow's magic is a power analogy for her showing both her self actualisation and how it turns into an abuse of power.

[@Nightman221k]

RIP Larry. I really wish he hadn’t been killed off and got to have become a cool vampire like Harmony. 😢

[@lutilda]

I do completely agree that Firefly is so loved because it initially wasnt able to be completed (and messed up). 😅 Especially because Dollhouse isnt nearly as loved in hindsight mostly because the last season was an insane jump in tone, story, etc in order to give it a conclusion.

[@abbystarheart1]

"If you don't know how it ends... I don't know why you're watching this video" because I've watched pretty much all of your other videos and need content😭😭 Edit: MOO is also a reference to MADD (mothers against drunk driving)!

[@kassybirdy]

this was delightful! I love this trip into a show i watched the entirety of with my mom

[@celinelia8127]

40:18 to be fair, Giles made it possible through magic for Xander's action to work. So it was the effort of both of them that stopped her.

[@asverith]

Re: villainy and queerness, there's also Ethan. It's never stated outright, but I always felt it's somewhat implied. And guess what his ending is? Buffy leaves him to the Initiative, to be experimented on.

[@tracydale154]

Before I go into my own rant on the show and these issues: Thank you! Really great video. This brought me back. Damn, decades later and I’m still not fucking over it 😢I hated how they handled Tara’s death/Willow’s heel turn so much. It’s hard to overstate how much they meant as a couple. They really were groundbreaking. And the history of queer people in tv and films was so filled with buried gays that it was almost expected by that point. Fans who hated the ship spent years screaming for Tara’s death for “turning Willow gay” People who loved the ship were understandably nervous, but took Joss at his word that he understood the importance of the ship and was not going to do the bury-your-gays trope, taking all the pats on the back for such positive representation (Fuck you Joss Whedon- for so many reasons) I was pretty heavily into online fandom for Buffy- and particularly Willow and Tara’s relationship. It was devastating. It felt like a genuine betrayal. It took almost a decade before I could finally bring myself to watch anything past Seeing Red. I do still love a lot in Buffy and love much of the Willow/Tara relationship. But yeah, it still kinda hurts how this was handled.

[@Frantasia]

Beautiful video, as always! The amount of pent up frustration that was audible throughout the entire Tara-Part resonates deeply with my soul. As someone who is watching the episodes of riverale as they come out, and rewatching the insanity of what they call a professional production with poor, unknowing friends, i really really want to see your riverdale video.

[@femmedracula6857]

I can't believe I had to wait this long for Larry to get his proper due. And I never liked that he got killed. Regarding demons and vampires, Five by Five Takes did a great video on the whole question of who vampires in Buffy really are and what it means to lose their soul and have a demon take up residence. It's called "What do Buffy's vampires mean?"

[@psych0536]

I would recommend watching Five by Five Takes' video about vampires and possession in Buffy. basically it's about how the "demon enters your dead body with uour memories but it isn't the person" is total cope because Angel and Spike disprove it, and just destroys the thematic content and meaning of those characters arcs. it's just a way of making it easier for people to stake a person close to them who was turned.

[@ThatVeganWhiteRose]

Tara/Willow is my fave TV ship, and I’m saying that as a cis-het woman. I LOVED their relationship as a whole. Sure, there were writing issues and stuff but like. DAMN. IIRC I think I remember screaming when Tara died. I’m a big fan of BTVS (my husband introduced it to me; can’t imagine why a queer man would relate to this show hmmmm 😂❤) and we have the comics as well. I’ll never not be mad about this death. Great analysis video!!

[@Lycandros]

👍👍 Now I'm curious if your gonna make another "quick look" of the comics that followed, and Angel.

[@TeacupToaster]

No mention of Giles and Ethan (Hello Ripper

[@ab-mc2nq]

41:35 wait lily did u write my immortal?

[@ems3376]

So I just watched your It’s Always Sunny video since it was recommended to me, and all I could think was “this person is cisn’t.” New fan of your channel- it’s so insightful and smart. Way to go Lily ✌🏻

[@ismolatham4393]

I know nothing about Buffy other than it has that guy who plays Uther from Merlin (also v. gay) in it (who I know now is called Giles in this) but I found this video so fascinating and I loved the little history lessons!

[@merbst]

25:00 thanks for helping us get Luded 27:10 congratulations on your triumph as an essayist/wanker... I hope I can follow in your footsteps someday. Also, does anybody else think the Routledge logo is as beautiful as I do?

[@DioJeans]

I've been dying for a proper buffy analysis on KZbin for forever

[@chelseastevenson6459]

This was an emotional rollercoaster

[@meganmacphie7315]

I’m so glad you exist