The German Army's Ammo Problem in WW2

When judging WW2 weapons one aspect is often ignored namely that nowadays we usually use ammo that is of better quality than what available during the war. This of course goes the other way round as well, basically using inferior ammo and than stating that the weapon was "bad", when it was actually an ammo problem. As always context is important. We also touch on the various problems the German Army had in World War 2 with ammo quality, supply and production.
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» SOURCES «
Bernhard R. Kroener, Rolf-Dieter Müller, Hans Umbreit: Organisation und Mobilisierung des deutschen Machtbereichs - Teilband 1: Kriegsverwaltung, Wirtschaft und personelle Ressourcen 1939 bis 1941, Das Deutsche Reich und der Zweite Weltkrieg, Band 5/1. Deutsche Verlags-Anstalt, Stuttgart, Germany, 1988 (1992).
Kroener, Bernhard R.; Müller, Rolf-Dieter; Umbreit, Hans: Organisation und Mobilisierung des deutschen Machtbereichs - Teilband 2: Kriegsverwaltung, Wirtschaft und personelle Ressourcen 1942 bis 1944/45. Das Deutsche Reich und der Zweite Weltkrieg, Band 5/2. Deutsche Verlags-Anstalt: Stuttgart, Germany, 1999.
#AmmoProblem,#GermanWeaponsWW2,#ContextMatters

[@MilitaryHistoryNotVisualized]

Errors & Corrections: 8:45 - I said "tin" (Zinn), it should be "zinc" (Zink). Want to see more interviews with experts? Consider supporting me on Patreon or Subscribestar, these supporters make trips like this possible. Additionally, you will get early access (no ads) and other features, more info here: » patreon - www.patreon.com/join/mhv » subscribe star - www.subscribestar.com/mhv

[@mrkitty1997]

Thank you for this video, I'll be sure to educate the anti-waxers

[@logoseven3365]

@@mrkitty1997 That is a group in reloading circles. Ironic funny

[@pricelesshistory]

Oh, I zink you can make a joke here.

[@mikeblair2594]

How could you go into the future and see my comment on the components of brass versus bronze and come back and correct you mistake? What kinda time machine are you Swiss hiding?

[@logoseven3365]

@@pricelesshistory No no no

[@noobster4779]

A swiss and an austrian talking about a german gun. Now the only two things missing are a Lichtensteiner for moral support and a Luxembourger to explain the finances of the guns. Then we have the entire family united :D

[@luisnunes2010]

Lol!

[@not-a-theist8251]

maybe a belgian too

[@saratov99]

Luxembourgers are non germans.

[@clicheguevara9917]

@@saratov99 yes,we are.

[@bondziu]

@@saratov99 Not German per se. But ceratainly deutschsprachig ;)

[@iangreenhalgh9280]

As an Englishman, it is a matter of national shame that we don't speak foreign languages to anywhere remotely near the level of proficiency that our European cousins do. Excellent video and I remain impressed at your English skills.

[@toonmag50]

Oh cheer up and perhaps you can learn another language

[@loquat44-40]

Americans are even worse at learning languages except possibly for spanish now on the way to being a second language for us. English first with the Victorian empire and then with American world dominance have made english a lingua franca so we really have not had a strong incentive to learn languages. We still are basically non-metric here in the USA and will likely not be changing over anytime soon. I am studying two languages basically to help prevent dementia as I age. Got to stop now. One of my dogs after begging to be fed just grabbed a partial loaf of bread off the table lol. So I better attend to that large hungry bulldog.

[@PeterSt1954]

Its the problem of living on an island surrounded by difficult seas. British people didn't normally encounter foreign people or foreign languages. Merchants did - which is why foreign languages were often taught in middle class schools. But most ordinary people had no exposure to any language but their local version of English - which was often incomprehensible to other British people.

[@adamcarreras-neal4697]

there's the other problem of which one to learn. My brother in law moved to the Czech republic over 20 years ago. One of the biggest problems was learning Czech as they'd always answer in English as they wanted the practice. My Spanish cousins were the same whenever we were over there for school hols.

[@stuartrichardson6928]

Ian Greenhalgh it's not a national shame. It's Ian's shame. Everyone else either doesn't give a single F£&k or actually speaks a foreign language. Get over yourself !

[@logoseven3365]

Interesting little book “Bullets by the Billions”. Written by the person in charge of producing .45 ACP for the US military. Very detailed

[@logoseven3365]

Wesley W. Stout Bullets by the Billion 1946 Still available $25 I paid 50c!

[@artoohafling6512]

@@logoseven3365 thank you, gonna check it out

[@richardm3023]

Would be nice if they could produce bullets by the billions today! Not saying anything, but I'm just sayin'.

[@enrixosjjdjd187]

@@logoseven3365 well take in inflatiom

[@slymandrake]

@@richardm3023 The U.S. produces approximately 9 billion a year.

[@paulh2468]

I worked in the Department of Redundancy Department for 17 years. I approve of this DRD-sponsored approved video. The DRD is always happy to bring you all sorts of redundancies, unless they happen to be needed during a shortage. Especially an ammo shortage. However, a lack of a shortage (technically referred to as a 'longage') is actually a really good thing, so we at the DRD are glad to have been of assistance in sponsoring you.

[@Kleinalrik]

Paul Hurst thank you. The DRD can prove evidence to thise stated statement. In our visitor's center for our visitors we are providing these very facts on numerous LCD-Displays, connected to a state of the art wireless WLAN network.

[@jasonharryphotog]

This is why they wanted the artillery used shell casings returned back for reproduction

[@tankolad]

Those damn shell casing fetishists!

[@blakexu4943]

Schindler sure was quite the rascal producing so many defective shells.

[@tedarcher9120]

It was a regular practice in all armies. Wasting copper is not a smart idea

[@jasonharryphotog]

@@tedarcher9120 did all army use, copper, in ammunition, I cant imagine some had recycling teams tbh. thin some were just forward thinking

[@ieuanhunt552]

I saw pictures of Shell casings after the third battle of Ypres and there is a mound of casings as high as a mans shoulder stretching into the horizon. There must be thousands of tons of brass in that picture. No way the war is sustainable if they don't recycle that.

[@donbalduf572]

Thanks for this very good description of the problems Germany had with small arms ammo. I have read elsewhere that most of the brass cartridges Germany produced were reserved for the Luftwaffe because an infantryman at least has a chance to clear a jam or fix a problem, but a fighter pilot has no chance. A gunner on a flexible mount *might* be able to achieve a fix, but it would be very difficult in the cramped interior of a maneuvering aircraft. The U.S. experimented with steel cartridge cases, notably for .45 ACP. The experiment did not go forward, partly because the need was not as great for the U.S. and because of functioning problems. I believe the steel cartridges tended to break the extractor on M1911 pistols because of the greater extraction force. I have seen some of these steel rounds, which are now collector's items. Side note: The U.S. also switched from copper to steel to make one-cent coins, called pennies in the U.S. These steel coins still turned up in my change when I was a child, but have now all vanished into collections.

[@Theredsunrising]

There is an excellent account from a German soldier from the Seelow-Berlin battles talking about the major issues lacquered steel ammo caused him

[@wjlasloThe2nd]

@tyler thomas Don't know if its what he got it from, but it sounds like Blood Red Snow by Gunter Koschorrek

[@alfapiotr66]

There are many such reports. Experienced frontline soldiers kept a supply of unlacquered ammunition for use, but an inexperienced soldier often died because he was firing lacquared steel ammunition and his rifle jammed. I knew a soldier who told me that during the attack of the Red Army soldiers at the last minute he managed to replace the barrel of the MG43 after being jammed with such ammunition.

[@slick4401]

@@wjlasloThe2nd Exactly right.

[@blasterofmuppets4754]

@tyler thomas Günter K. Koschorreks Book "Vergiss die Zeit der Dornen nicht". He was a MG Gunner and in the book he states multiple times how he hated that lacquered ammo and would always try to use it in situations were his life was not in immediate danger to keep the good ammo for emergencies, were every second counted.

[@maiqtheliar789]

Very good video. Ammo and the quality of it often gets overlooked when speaking about military history usually overshadowed by the weapons that fire it. People often forget that a weapon any weapon is a system of parts and components that go into making it work properly. Ammunition is one of the most important components. If you have shitty ammo it doesn't matter if your weapon is machined and designed perfectly it will malfunction or effect the aim. I am glad to see someone actually cover this. When your country is limited on resources you have to do what you have to do even if the results might not be ideal.

[@princeofcupspoc9073]

One of the advantages of the US artillery verses the German artillery facing them was the simple fact that the US could bombard German positions all day and all night, and the Germans had to pick and choose carefully when to use their guns. Stalin said something about this.

[@pizzafrenzyman]

@@princeofcupspoc9073 Stalin was wrong about a lot of things.

[@Colonel_Overkill]

As someone who makes ammo I understand their pain. I was testing a load for a .45 ACP. I shot through my chronograph like I do with all loads with the same gun mounted in a vice. The load this day at a range of 3m shot off by an astonishing amount. The shot was set to travel over the chronograph at a height of 15cm. The first shot went to the right roughly 12cm damaging the support bar for the shade. I reset and tried again believing this to be a fluke. The second shot went low by 18cm, so far that it completely gutted my chronograph. This test setup had been successful for hundreds of rounds so the problem was not equipment error. It was an effect of wildly varying ammo performing well beyond reasonable expectation. If the projected hit cone is 20cm at 3m imagine trying to hit anything with that ammo at reasonable ranges. O7 RIP my poor chrono, you served well and your sacrifice will be remembered.

[@dfgiuy22]

That much deviation in .45 acp at 3m is terrifying. Be careful! Was at the club and had a Remington 7600 in .308 not hit a 3 foot by 4 foot target at 25m... turned out the barrel was loose and the rounds were going GOD knows where. Glad we were at the bottom of a valley with a LOT of mountain in front of us...

[@Colonel_Overkill]

@@dfgiuy22 thats the very reason all ammo tests are in a blind valley with high walls. The last thing I want is a round into low orbit that punches through some poor bastards eyeball at a few miles. Pistol ammo isnt bad but I also use the spot for cannon shots so downrange safety is paramount.

[@iangreenhalgh9280]

Damn, that's a lot of deflection. Did you ever diagnose what it was about those rounds that caused that? It almost sounds like the crown of the gun was damaged, to deflect that much. I'm far from an expert, just curious what could cause it.

[@Colonel_Overkill]

@@iangreenhalgh9280 bad powder is my suspicion. The can had a small puncture and it was probably burning wildly. The one shot through the chrono loops read 600 f/s when my loads of that type are normally 950. The weapon itself was a 1911 in a vice and the next day freehand I shot a dozen rounds in a 4cm group at 30m so it was mechanically sound.

[@iangreenhalgh9280]

@@Colonel_Overkill Aah, I see, thanks for the explanation. Do you think some moisture had got into the powder due to the small puncture? What would be the remedy for such a situation ? Perhaps giving the powder a thorough mixing then letting it dry in a warm location? Or is bad powder simply bad powder and can't be remedied?

[@pirobot668beta]

Copper was in such tight demand that the US tore copper windings from hydro-generators and replaced them with sterling silver. Yes, Grand Coulee and a few other dams are running on silver windings! Copper was terribly valuable, strategically speaking, so it got used. The silver doesn't need guarding: the huge rotors spin 2/7, no way to smash-n-grab!

[@stevec7770]

Cents were made in 1943 of steel and used brass cartridges in 1944

[@sullivanrachael]

Silver windings - have a lower resistance than copper; therefore more efficient.

[@nattygsbord]

@@sullivanrachael Indeed. Silver is the best metal in almost everything: leading electricity with minimal energy loss, transporting heat with minimum loss, it is also the metal which best reflects light. It is light. And it the most shining and beautiful metal of all the precious metals. It is also anti-bacterial which makes it useful at hospitals, And it can be used for making batteries, clothes and other things. The only problem with it is its short supply that causes it to have a high price. And it is also a soft metal, so you have have to mix it with another metal to make it strong - like copper in silver/copper coins. The only reason why we use copper instead of silver in cables and such is because it is cheaper. Otherwise is silver superior in almost everything. The modern world could not work without silver. But nobody would notice if all gold in the world dissapeared from the world tomorrow.

[@sabotabby3372]

@@nattygsbord well gold is needed for use in transistors and small electronics

[@aritakalo8011]

Same happened with project Manhattan. They needed massive amounts of electric windings for massive electromagnets for electromagnetic mass spectroscopy separation of Uranium for uranium enrichment. Problem was as said copper was needed for other war uses. So instead Project Manhattan loaned part of US silver reserve from Treasury Department and wound the electromagnets with silver wiring. After the war the Silver was returned to treasure. In the end electromagnetic mass spectroscopy didn't end up being the most efficient way so it went out of use mostly after project Manhattan with world mostly moving to gaseous diffusion and gas centrifuges for separation.

[@brittakriep2938]

In the german arms magazin ,Deutsches Waffenjournal' long ago, every year an ,April's fool' article appeared. One April you could read, that in the endtime of wwll the Wehrmacht tried to use the bulletshaped stonelike relicts of animals called ,Belemiten' ( don't know english name), died millions of years ago, as bullet substitute. This was of course April's fool fun, but perhaps 25 years ago i worked with my father on a field, when my father grabbed such a stonelke relict, which was much more symetrical than usual. It was a ball from a heavy machinegun, perhaps fired from a plane.

[@fredmidtgaard5487]

It is called Belemnite in Danish and is common in fossil calcite rocks in Denmark

[@Albukhshi]

Belemnite in English.

[@Furzkampfbomber]

@@Albukhshi A german common term for belemnites is 'Donnerkeil', which translates to 'Thunderbolt'. Quite fitting in this context. :D

[@Albukhshi]

@@Furzkampfbomber That's pretty cool!

[@bryansmith1920]

So Germany was working on clay bullets in 1940ish What would life have been like IF Hitler had listened to his generals and waited to 1942/3 Or what would life be like if Trump Came Back to Power as a Vengeful Hate filled Dictator

[@vmerkwurdigliebe3751]

One minor mistake, brass is made of copper and zinc. Cartridge brass is usually 70% copper and 30% zinc. Bronze is made of copper and tin.

[@MilitaryHistoryNotVisualized]

see pinned comment

[@Elenrai]

@@MilitaryHistoryNotVisualized respect man, that is some serious dedication to due diligence! I wish my colleagues were like you :(

[@ulfpe]

Wax actually helps to waterproof the ammo as well

[@Steve-vp9dp]

@freebeerfordworkers that was mentioned "wax attracts dirt" so if yes you are right in certain conditions it can make a "grinding paste"

[@cnlbenmc]

They did that on paper shotgun shells before they had reliable plastic ones in sufficient numbers. There was a major problem with the paper shells disintegrating inside of the ammo tubes in WWI.

[@herosstratos]

@@cnlbenmc During the First World War attempts were made to use substitute material made of paper to replace leather in harnesses. However, this material was always destroyed by the sweat of the horses, so that these experiments did not lead to any positive results.

[@828enigma6]

Had some brass case 45 ACP US military production ammo from 1917 found in a dump. All fired properly except those that had holes corroded in the cases. The case necks and primers were sealed with lacquer.

[@BOB-wx3fq]

Dude I saw this in a revolutionary war movie... how are you going to stop the wax from melting and than hardening on sensitive internal components

[@andrewtaylor940]

Fascinating. Thank you for this. It highlights one of those little details of wartime that we never would have given much thought to. How small changes caused by wartime material resource supply shifts, can magnify to become huge issues downstream.

[@MrDowdy11753]

Anyone else click this because they thought it was going to be a forgotten weapons video?

[@holgernarrog962]

The video is a bit strange. We (Germans) did indeed switch to soft iron cases in ww1 and ww2 due to the lack of brass. The MG42 was introduced in 1941 when soft iron ammo was already in production. I would not wonder if the MG34 was at least released for soft iron ammo as it was planned already to use soft iron ammo in war time. My father had a hunters licence and beside other gadgets an 98K. As far as I remember in 1981 we met at a shooting range a collector who had a 98 rifle ww1. He used ww2 iron ammo. My father recognized it immediatly by the color and rust as they had it as well in the 1950ies when he served in the GST (Eastern Germany) shooting with 98K, MG42 and Simonov rifles. We talked with each other. My father asked if the ammo still works after >35 years. He mentioned that he had oiled it and there is nothing negative about it. Other sources mention that soft iron casings were an issue in ww1 with a higher rate of failures and sleeve pullers but not anymore in ww2. The ammo producers had 20years to optimize these ammo.

[@TheWirksworthGunroom]

A good presentation on an interesting topic. Whilst I was aware of German steel cased ammunition production and that it was considered sub-standard, I'd not really considered all the practical problems. The increased chamber pressure figures are interesting.. Good stuff.

[@bwwwbb7904]

I have a MG-42, and fire the 1970s Romainian 177 gr round that is steel cased............As you have pointed out, it helps if the steel case is lubed in some way, which keeps the extraction of empty cases smooth..........We use 'Pam', which is a cooking spray, one would spray onto a frying pan, because the lube does not evaporate off the steel case when fired, as you have mentioned with oil.

[@razor6888]

If that's the only ammo available... then you have no choice .. don't use PAM.. use Deep Creep. Made by Sea Foam. 20 years experience..works much better. Used it in Arctic and Desert.. best period.

[@jeffreynelson2660]

@@razor6888 KY works...

[@bwwwbb7904]

@@razor6888 wow, never heard of it?? Where can I get some?...ty

[@razor6888]

@@bwwwbb7904 automotive parts places.. spray can . Can is white with black plastic top. Ask at parts counter if they carry it. Best stuff period. It's gunsmith in a can.

[@razor6888]

@@jeffreynelson2660 lol... I suppose so. But I don't have that sort of relationship with the full autos. LMAO.

[@HeroHoundoom]

It's rather impressive that they still managed to find solutions for ammunition problems even as the war was coming to a close.

[@princeofcupspoc9073]

They fought on through early 45 hoping for some miracle reversal on the Eastern Front, for example, to get the US to switch sides and fight against the USSR. With what we know now, it seems silly. But it seemed to be a real possibility.

[@purplefood1]

@@princeofcupspoc9073 What could possibly have indicated the Allies would swap sides to fighting the USSR?

[@Airay552]

@@purplefood1 because both germany and ussr were the badguys of WW2, maybe the german military not the regime thought that after the fall of berlin the allies would drive into the USSR. Many in the US military especially thought that they could and should have dealt with the russians then and there while they still had a legitimate chance. Patton is the most often used example here but there are many more who shared his sentiments.

[@purplefood1]

@@Airay552 Yeah they weren't big fan of the Russians and we now know they were very at odds but did the German military really think the Allies would simply stop fighting them and start fighting Russia? I know a few generals basically sold their Russia fighting expertise to the US in exchange for various considerations but was there ever actually an indication that the Allies would just stop fighting them without them surrendering or was it just a vague imagined hope?

[@undertakernumberone1]

@@purplefood1 Operation: Unthinkable DID exist.

[@hoosierdaddy2308]

Absolutely. I worked in the ammunition business in the 70s and 80s for a company that made ammo for military and police here in the US. Ammo is a huge deal in accuracy and function. Steel cases with extra pressure will burn out the throat of a barrel and cause horrible inaccuracy as well. Great video. Sehr gutt!

[@ReptilianLepton]

Very topical for your American audience living in current year.

[@princeofcupspoc9073]

Well we've had our "beer hall putsch." What comes next. ;-(

[@paulthiessen6467]

@@princeofcupspoc9073 it was more a burning of the reichstag

[@paulthiessen6467]

@@mikearmstrong8483 you misunderstood my point. Those in power are trying to use the riot at the capitol to justify cracking down on certain groups, just as Hitler did after the German parliament fire. (Even though there were several groups represented by the individuals that breached the Capitol building)

[@mikearmstrong8483]

@@paulthiessen6467 I stand corrected, and my initial response is deleted.

[@paulthiessen6467]

@@mikearmstrong8483 no problem. A little communication goes a long away.

[@browngreen933]

My father, an American GI in WW2, brought back several German guns but no Luger. When I asked him why, he said that Lugers were unreliable with the steel ammo and therefore he favored the P.38.

[@cnlbenmc]

The American Audience is oddly in a very similar place.

[@420JackG]

Oh I dunno... things are pretty chill in that part of the world. Right now in America it feels like the shit is about to hit the fan.

[@eccentricthinker142]

Shortages of everything... again

[@marzcapone9939]

Difference being the Germans had been using their ammo, thus a shortage. In the US, the shortage is mostly in the market. There's LOTS of ammo in stockpiles, just in citizens' homes.

[@travishabursky4362]

I shall say as an American, the gun and ammo shortage is partly because of an influx of first time firearms buyers due to the previous POTUS. The other end of the shortage is by current owners purchasing guns and ammo because of the current POTUS of 01/30/2021. The reality is more complex than my summary, but thats the gist of our situation in a quick paragraph.

[@marzcapone9939]

@@travishabursky4362 I'd say the pandemic and a shitload of "mostly peaceful protests" sold more guns than the former POTUS. The MSM made Trump out to be a dictator, if he had been, he would still be the POTUS and the media would love him. Dictators don't get bad press in their own country nor loose elections.

[@tommyfred6180]

having shot both ww2, post ww2 Indian and newly made number seven .303 in a smle and number 4 LE. i can confirm the war time stuff was dreadful. i can well believe that in a full auto weapons' this would be magnified. but i have no personnel experience of full auto shooting.

[@pricelesshistory]

Why the steel cases get stuck in steel barrels is the issue of moving parts being fused, especially steel over brass: GALLING. Cohesion through metallic-bonding attractions is normal, amplified under extreme heat and pressure, that effect is magnified furthur if it is the same materiel. Steel is more susceptible to this bonding and galling as it is being forcefully rubbed along the surface than brass or bronze. Fuel engines have bearings made of brass or bronze because of its resistance to galling, and being a different metal further reduces chance of galling. Galling is never fully eliminated, but is massively reduced.

[@jamesharmer9293]

Thank you for this video. I did not know that the Germans used steel cased ammo due to copper shortages. I learned something today. And thank you for the correction, you had me confused there...

[@teenaramsay2469]

Another reason for using steel cased ammo is that it stretches in the chamber when fired, and unlike brass , steel is difficult to force back into shape during a reloading process. So if you are fighting in an area with partisans around, steel cases cannot be reloaded and fired back at you....

[@voiceofraisin3778]

One other effect is that tanks went over from having motorised turret rotation to hand cranked gearing in later war models since they couldnt get the copper wiring to make decent electric motors. That increases crew fatigue and lowers speed and precision of reaction and firing.

[@memofromessex]

Hands down best KZbin historian. What weren't the Wehrmacht short on?

[@88porpoise]

Enemies

[@WitchyWagonReal]

@@88porpoise Winner😆

[@hailexiao2770]

War criminals?

[@luisnunes2010]

Courage and problems.

[@julianshepherd2038]

Unwarranted confidence in their leaders.

[@QoraxAudio]

AFAIK, steel also conducts heat much less effective compared to brass, so guns can't eject as much heat via the cartridge. That results in quicker overheating.

[@ivancho5854]

Very true.

[@ChucksSEADnDEAD]

Heat conductivity will pass more heat towards the barrel. You want lower conductivity to use the case as thermal sink.

[@QoraxAudio]

@@ChucksSEADnDEAD I think you're confusing thermal conductivity with thermal diffusivity... because for thermal diffusivity, your statement would be correct. For example, polymer cases have a much lower thermal conductivity than metal cases; guns that use those polymer ones can eject much less heat via the cases.

[@ChucksSEADnDEAD]

@@QoraxAudio That's not true, in fact True Velocity posted thermal video evidence that their polymer cases eject more heat out of the gun precisely because of their lower thermal conductivity.

[@scipio10000]

My understanding is that the ammo was actually laquered. The wax mix was calibrated to be hard and stable up to 65C, melting on firing. Thus the ammo was, from a cleanliness and storing perspective, as good as brass.

[@jeffreynelson2660]

I read an old book about the war in Russia, and the author mentioned enamelled steel cases. Not very reliable, he said.

[@scipio10000]

@@jeffreynelson2660 My source was an historical article in a firearm magazine. Basically Germany shared steel case technology with the USSR till early thirties. The Germans progressed fron steel covered in copper to laquer to steel + laquer + hard wax. This last iteration was as good as brass and could be used in the mg42s. The Russians to this date have steel plus some form of laquering.

[@jeffreynelson2660]

@@scipio10000 Interesting, thanks for the reply.

[@RedIron1066]

Thanks for another highly informative discussion. As an avid shooter & reloader, I really didn’t learn anything, but very well presented!

[@hugod2000]

i was completely unaware of this problem, thanks for posting.

[@georgebizos944]

I appreciate this video more because it was filmed next to gardening implements... This is dedication.

[@CarrotConsumer]

When you have to fight off the 3rd Shock Army at 5 but need to get your daisies planted by 6.

[@thomasherbig]

Well, that was one of the most fascinating and illuminating discussions. In the East German army, we were always told about the superiority of Soviet weapons. The contrast was drawn to German weapons in WWII, which would jam all the time and were very susceptible to dirt. Conclusion: the Russian approach (no: Soviet, clearly superior to the decadent imperialists and fascists) of loose tolerances (meaning sloppily produced) is so much superior to the German high-technology approach of precision and sophistication. Implication: don't be afraid of NATO, whose decadent imperialist members are betting on technology, precision, and sophistication. Now I learn that this was completely untrue (as most other things they told us). Sure, the German weapons did jam and abhor dirt, but it seems this was not because of technology or precision, but the simple consequence of not having enough copper! I love learning!

[@vksasdgaming9472]

Well, those Soviet weapons are famously reliable and easy-to-learn so they might have something going right. In practiclau use they are just as accurate as well so compromises really do not hamper their effectiveness.

[@KuK137]

No, it was not untrue, you racist cretin. Realizing where you can do with looser tolerances (meaning cheaper parts) is being smart, unlike morons who did everything to insane tolerance that was not needed, was expensive, and caused problems. Compare russian and german guns - they are the exact same accuracy up to 300-400 meters, distance 99.9% of soldiers won't have the skill to use. For the 0.01% of soldiers who can, russians gave rifles that were the most accurate in factory testing or purposefully made. Germans wasted time, money, lives and resources making useless overengineered stuff that caused problems or no one could fully use that caused them to lose war. It's sad this rabid xenophobic BS "east bad" was liked by actual historian. Makes me doubt accuracy of whole channel. And just to give example of how comically idiotic german crap was (if stuff like Jadgtigers, Tigers, Maus, and other boondoggles didn't give you a clue) - look at Sten. Cheap, easily produced, very loose tolerances british SMG. Merely adequate, but it worked well. Germans copied them (Gerät Potsdam), and in their idiocy, made it super precise and ""sophisticated"". End result? German copy performed far worse than the orginal, was 100x as expensive (no, that is not a joke) and constantly jammed. But I guess these british designers were soviet agents of something?

[@thomasherbig]

@@vksasdgaming9472 completely agree: it is an art. Similar with consumer products: it’s “easy” (and fun) to build something over-engineered. But it takes a lot of good engineering to build something to a low price point that is still good enough to satisfy the majority of customers.

[@thomasherbig]

@@vksasdgaming9472 that said, I have never seen any facts about the relative reliability (in terms of combat effectiveness) of weapons by the different belligerents in WWII. That would be interesting.

[@thomasherbig]

@@KuK137 I’m not sure that I should even reply, but I can’t help myself. I have never been called a “racist cretin” before. That’s because I am neither racist nor mentally disabled. I am also neither rabid nor xenophobic. I may say things that are BS but not deliberately so. (Also, you surely wouldn’t want to imply that “Russian” or “Soviet” refers to a different race? I sure don’t.) Your tone unfortunately takes away from a very valid point, which is that there is an important trade-off between the marginal (but possibly irrelevant) improvement that can be bought with complexity and precision as opposed to the benefits of simplicity and “good enough.” That’s well worth discussing, because it’s important not only in WWII, but in pretty much every sphere of life. One more thing: if you were to read my point without such anger, you might note that I wasn’t commenting on this trade-off at all. Rather, I was commenting on the (post-war) communist propaganda with which I grew up. Here I freely admit to bias. Please only reply if you can do so without vitriol.

[@Dennis-vh8tz]

Bad ammunition was also the main cause of the infamous M16 reliability problems in Vietnam. The M16 was tested and approved using a particular ammunition formulation. The ammunition manufacturer and military bureaucracy changed the powder being used without testing it - the new powder had a different burn rate, which changed the pressure when the (gas pressure operated) self loading system was actuated. End result was that when the M16 reached the front line soldiers, it came with incompatible ammunition.

[@jacksonthompson7099]

The original powder was a stick type plus the early M16's used a lesser grade of aluminium that would corrode from the troops sweaty hands good example is troops having there mag wells get eaten all the way through from corrosion by placing their hand there when firing the rifle. The cheaper powder they switched to plus had more stock of was a ball type powder and the chambers and bores not being chrome lined with no issued cleaning kits was also a serious problem.

[@andrewgillis3073]

Small arms ammunition in Germany was a problem. However, artillery cases were also in short supply. I have read primary sources (translated) of logistic officers complaining that not enough of the fired shells were returned. These would be recycled, being taken back by the same transports that brought the ammunition forward. Small arms ammunition was impractical to recycle in the field.

[@mrkitty1997]

Show this to any anti-waxers you know 😔

[@eyesofstatic9641]

Lol! Those damn anti-waxers

[@snakethepeg7828]

We need herd immunity

[@teenaramsay2469]

@@snakethepeg7828 That is "nerd' immunity....

[@QoraxAudio]

Wax on, wax off. Wax on... wax off...

[@zainmudassir2964]

😳

[@geraldwincek1812]

This is another great video where I learned something. I was not aware of the steel case ammo issue.

[@timboinozify]

A close friend of mine's dad worked at the SAF in Lithgow and was on the team that made the breech blocks for our .303" Bren guns. Guns were rejected if they failed to put all rounds per mag into a circle < 30mm across at the factory's range. This suggests to me that Australian .303 ammunition must have been very, very consistent. This revelation about Germany's problem with ammunition quality simply adds to my view that Germany lost WWII by starting it. ? copper ore reserves ..... ? ;-) and :-)

[@thebigone6071]

You’re the greatest ever Bernhard!!!! Thanks for this video!!!

[@CritterCamSoCal]

Brass is Copper & Zinc. When you mix Tin and Copper you get Bronze.

[@ralfrude3532]

Actually steel cased rifle ammunition was already used in the first WW.

[@robertskrzynski2768]

When I was a member of my school refile club in the 60's we used .303 ammo that was WW2 surplus and where told that the British Commonwealth and Empire had made so much that production stopped in 1943 and that Nato 7.62mm was adopted until the early 1960's

[@SidneyBroadshead]

7.62mm NATO was adopted in 1954. Britain converted their service machineguns to use 7.62mm. Obsolete stuff like the water-cooled Vickers gun and some tank machineguns were chambered for .303 and were used by the Territorials until the early 1960s. The Tank and Reconnaissance regiments used Browning M1919 machineguns chambered for .30/'06 from the tail end of WW2 until after the Gulf War (I don't know if they saw issue or use in the Cold War period, but they weren't declared obsolete until after 1992).

[@ThreenaddiesRexMegistus]

Was still able to buy CAC Mk7 ball ammo in 70 round cardboard cylinders right up until the late 1970s. It was good stuff, even if corrosive like most was.

[@SidneyBroadshead]

@@ThreenaddiesRexMegistus Were they bulk packed in tubes or packed in flat circular boxes?

[@adamcarreras-neal4697]

I was ATC in the 80s and we still had some ww2 .303 ammo in the early 80s, when I left we'd switched to SA80 mk1s, crap rifle

[@kirkstinson7316]

And yet , if true, there is the story of the Beast at Normandy firing like a million rounds from an mg42. Ammo couldn't have been to bad there

[@mathewkelly9968]

So lindybeige was right , the bren is better than the mg 34/42 ......... Because of the ammo

[@ivancho5854]

Gotta love rimmed ammo!

[@-WarCriminal-22]

2:00 Interesting fact: brass for casings was used in USA because they didn't have enough steel with certain "characteristics", which are required for making a good steel casing. At the same time, brass was cheaper. Soviets, on the other hand, had to develop and use special type of steel for casings because they didn't have spare zinc and copper to produce enough brass, so steel casing was and still is cheaper here than brass casing, at the same time it doesn't affect ammunition's performance.

[@-WarCriminal-22]

Very interesting video, nonetheless. Learned some new stuff

[@larrythompson5617]

I really like the way you make the studio look like a garage. Very homey atmosphere. GTK information. I didn't know the Nazis used steel casings.... What parentage of firearms failed or blew up because of the steel casings? Lack of proper Obturation obviously was a problem.

[@baker2niner]

My uncle could show you very clearly that ammo worked well enough at Bastogne in late '44.

[@slickslyke1870]

Hello I'm an American gun owner and avid range shooter from the year 2021. This video speaks to me on way too many levels.

[@vaclav_fejt]

Amazing, I've never heard about it - not from Ian, not from Bloke, I've also never read it anywhere else. I've heard about present day problems with steel-cased ammo with civillian shooters, but I never knew the problems used to be so serious.

[@kieranh2005]

I'd read about it in the first world war, but it was the British and their early wartime manufacture ammunition, which was so bad that they soldiers in the book were reduced to kicking their bolts open and shut so that they could fire. If I recall correctly, this was against the Turks, and the book may have been the History of the Canterbury Mounted Rifles, but it was about 15-20 years ago that I read this, so I may have the book wrong.

[@stephen1107]

With each video, the Germans in WW2 appear more and more desperate.

[@lycossurfer8851]

@2:05 So the A-Team used surplus German ammo I see

[@MetalheadMitch762]

I haven't saw any problems with WW2 German steel cased ammo. I have shot many rounds out of my K98 and MG-42 and never had any issues (not even hangfires like other 8mm surplus). Most of the rounds are from 1943 and 1944 and many which are armor piercing (smk) rounds which have been imported into the US in large numbers. I had a case head separation with my MG-42 with brass cased PPU ammo which caused the barrel door to bend. The cause was because the barrel I used had dangerously poor headspace. Steel cased ammo ran fine because the case doesn't break as easily die to excessive headspace. Also for machine gunners, the Germans used much more reliable versions of the ammo which were marked "Für MG".

[@cavscout888]

Wax? I thought they used lacquer...?

[@mortson978]

This guy is so fluent in English, it blows my mind. I don't understand how you can be that fluent, (seriously his vocabulary is larger than most native English speakers I know) yet still have such a thick accent. I'm guessing he does a lot more reading than conversing.

[@scratchy996]

You have to live for some while in a place , and speak to locals, to improve your accent.

[@MilitaryHistoryNotVisualized]

Thanks, I also have not the best ears, so it is hard to pick up the differences and also to remember them.

[@SpassImGlas]

This is weird. When I watched this video, I specifically thought how much his pronunciation has improved over the years.

[@ovk-ih1zp]

By late war just about Every combatant county was producing steel case ammo for issue, even the US. Most of this was used up very quickly or demil'ed(sold as surplus or destroyed) after the war due to the issues discussed. Steel cased ammo is very abusive to firearms that aren't designed for it, such as the AK pattern rifles that have sufficient chamber dimensions that will allow easy extraction of steel & the G3 with the fluted chambers also adapted well to steel cases. Garands, FALs, M-14' & M-16s all tended to prefer brass due to tighter chamber dimensions.

[@thomasburke7995]

This was not the dud I thought it would be.. this explains the reasoning behind why the US Military is pushing for polymer casings .. the "PROOF" round and the expansion and contraction of the round in the chamber was interesting

[@daveybernard1056]

In the past several years, the US is revisiting the suboptimal cartridge case material question. We have been flooded with commercial steel cased 9mm, 5.56mm and even several different .30 rifle calibers. I've mainly seen 5.56 guys get frustrating jams with steel cased ammo. You can get a significant insight to the problems of steel cased ammo if you shoot it in a bolt action. Some steel 7.62x39mm expanded to obturate and then shrank back down for easy extraction. Maybe half expanded, didn't shrink back down after firing and locked themselves in the chamber! Steel 9mm was well behaved, functioning and ejecting like brass, and steel .38 special would freeze in the chamber, locking up the cylinder. I have sprayed some of my steel AK ammo with a modern, dry wax, and am wondering if they will all uniformly extract easily, like brass!

[@rc59191]

Thank God the Swiss haven't given up their arms.

[@bondziu]

This is a very typical Swiss basement, probably right next to the obligatory shelter :D

[@sugarplum4128]

Looks like there is a trap door at the bottom right on screen.....wait for the siren.

[@bondziu]

@@sugarplum4128 Actually, they do not use trap doors for those (or at least I've not seen one in about half a dozen Swiss basements I happend to 'visit' in various parts of the country). It is usually like just another basement unit, only with thicker walls and an armoured door.

[@digilyd]

Please add items 1 tieclip mic per speaker when recording in that room. Also please add graphics showing the procentual differences, it makes for much better comprehension and retainment, they can be head-up display style so that you still can see the speaking person(s).

[@MilitaryHistoryNotVisualized]

we used tieclips; I usually don't add graphics on this channel's videos for various reasons.

[@merpius]

I really wish there was currently a lack of ammunition shortage. Unfortunately we're currently experiencing a scarcity of lacks of ammunition shortage, so ammo is expensive and sometimes hard to find. :(

[@stevestandley5571]

Coming from a reloader, thank you for this one!

[@MrNagant007]

I can't remember the name of the book, dudes a German soldier MG gunner. He mentioned the steel ammo and how it sucked. Wouldn't use it but for target practice or to site in their guns. The Russians surprised his position with an advance. Both MG guns jammed before brass ammo was sent up to their position. If their comrade hadn't been able to deliver the brass ammo to them (who died getting the MG gunners their ammo) the team there would have been overran and killed and this book would have never been written. Instead they were able to take a sizable amount of Russian prisoners once they were able to get the MGs firing brass. This is just one story from one position in one point of time in the war. The difference between brass and steel literally determined if that position was going to be held or not. Makes me wonder how the overall impact of steel was across the entire front was. It must have been sizable.

[@mananaVesta]

The Russian 7.62x39 and 7.62x54R are so tapered, that's why extraction with steel cases never was a problem.

[@IGLArocknroll]

The 7.62x54R is rimmed, which also helps with the extraction.

[@shawncarroll5255]

The opposite occurs with 9mm. The rounds used by the militaries of allied countries often have to meet a very tight standard of pressure, using one specific bullet. Civilian 9mm rounds can vary all over the place, so you can have a 9mm pistol that has a reputation for being unreliable, or "picky" about the ammo it fires. Fair testers will first run the military spec ammo, and then run different civilian loads through it. I must admit I don't know where law enforcement would fall on this, though I suspect that depends on where, and how federalized it is.

[@jacksonthompson7099]

From my understanding at least in my area our police department actually does a bidding system for there service pistols ammo and who ever has the lowest bid the department will get that ammo, although the sniper has a .338 Lapua Magnum as his sniper weapon which is overkill imo for our area and the situations they could be in but oh well.

[@ChucksSEADnDEAD]

The FBI has a list of approved ammo so any agency that doesn't feel like running an expensive reliability test can use that.

[@iivin4233]

I remember Ian Mccollum stating in one of his videos that American soldiers were only required to achieve a 2 minute of angle accuracy with their Garands. If Germans were trained to a similar standard and were using innacutate ammo it tells us a different story of what it took to win battles from what we usually imagine: more pew and less cranial pulp.

[@princeofcupspoc9073]

There's were thousands of rifle and machinegun rounds fired for each soldier wounded. Wrap your head around that.

[@trooperdgb9722]

Aimed individual rifle fire was a very minor cause of casualties in WW2. Emplaced machine guns and, above all, Artillery did the killing and wounding. The VAST majority of infantry fire was meant merely to make the other guy keep his head down....and of course post war studies showed that a great many individual soldiers did NOT fire their personal weapons anyway...

[@trooperdgb9722]

@@princeofcupspoc9073 Could have even been tens of thousands...

[@yc2673]

French joke about Germans : An englishman has died, in heaven the Lord tells him he will go to hell. But he let him choose to go into the German hell or the French hell. He asks, what is the best? The Lord advise him to go to the French one and then he tells : - In the French hell, you will be boiled everyday by filthy goblins, but only 5 day on 7, the other five days, sometimes they will miss some wood, sometimes they will leave you to go to eat, they rest after 5pm, and somedays they will go on strike against Satan. - In the German hell, they will boil you 6 days on 7, somedays, they will experience to boil you with coal, they will try a square pan, and the sundaythey will hold commissions over if it's better a round or a square pan. What did he choose?

[@jackstarr4726]

Excellent video

[@F1ghteR41]

1:56 Steel cases have pretty much nothing to do with accuracy in comparison to powder quality and reliable bullet construction. At least, the threshold at which case material starts to play its part is much higher than what Germans could realistically and repeatably achieve with their production techniques. The problem with steel cases was that the technology involved was rather immature at the time. 3:56 Mosin rifle and Maxim gun both predate the introduction of steel cases in the Soviet production in the mid 1930's. Moreover, steel cases weren't exclusively used in Soviet ammo production throughout the war. So no, the argument here has no standing in reality. Anyway, good steel case is to be designed in such a way that it would offer no detrements in weapons already in use. The Germans simply haven't thought through the design, despite being the pioneers of the technology itself. The use of wax in lieu of tombac gliding illustrates the point even better.

[@alexwendler5479]

I didn't even knew about steel cases!

[@Bontebok5]

"Lack of ammunition shortage" doesn't mean what you think it means...

[@ulfjohnsen6203]

I feel that is something one might say to indicate that the enemy is firing nonstop. We are seeing a distinct lack of enemy ammo shortage...

[@Bontebok5]

@@ulfjohnsen6203 Sure, but he was talking about German ammunition shortages when he said that. What he wanted to say was simply "ammunition shortage" or "lack of ammunition".

[@neilbodwell9172]

Great video and a lot of good information. However I'm honestly most impressed by the english. It's not an easy language even for those who use it is our first language. I'm really impressed

[@johnmcmickle5685]

The problem could also be the powder placed in each cartridge. A small variation in the powder charge will cause accuracy problems. It is a problem even today with the high speed loading operations in factories. The problem with the holding force on the steel cartridges could have been fixed simply by adjusting the size of the opening where the bullet was seated.

[@ChucksSEADnDEAD]

The issue is that cartridges have to respect the external dimensions or else they won't fit the chamber. So the only option would be thinning out the case mouth. I can see damage to the case occuring during loading or violent feeding in a machine gun due to the weakening of the case.

[@timramsey5800]

Very informative thank you

[@Azoonaloc13]

Just about the only resource the Wehrmacht wasn't short on was morale.

[@SirCheezersIII]

On the Eastern Front certainly. The West past December 44 on the other hand, there's a good chance your average Wehrmacht soldier will run for the nearest Tommy or GI shouting "Kamerad!" as soon as their officers are gone.

[@SirCheezersIII]

@toeff7852 Easily. German soldiers in the late war were said to be coaxed into attacking American positions just for the chance to capture Lucky Strikes and K Rations.

[@jumpferjoy1st]

I didn't know this so appreciate the video. I used to own a 88mm round and that had a steel case. I wonder if heavier weapons were designed for brass cases and suffered the same problems when using steel.

[@5peciesunkn0wn]

used to? What happened?

[@jumpferjoy1st]

@@5peciesunkn0wn family came along. Having big knives and things that hurts around small kids, not good.

[@5peciesunkn0wn]

@@jumpferjoy1st oh. makes sense.

[@501Mobius]

How do you get Tim Robbins to help you out there in Switzerland?

[@blasterofmuppets4754]

:-D

[@looinrims]

Thanks for linking the video on america in world war 1, fuck knows how I’ve missed it

[@Dsdcain]

Steel always makes a high quality gun, like those made earlier in the war by the Germans, have fits and seizures of miss fires. I'll admit, I do like my 1911s (Yes Glock fans I like those too) and it is funny my cheaper say Ruger SR1911 has been able to digest any ammo I fed it, while my "higher quality" 1911s only eat good ammo until about 600 or 800 rounds have been through them. Love this channel for the variety of content you put on here. Thank you sincerely. 👍

[@timboinozify]

When Bren guns made in Lithgow (Australia) were tested each gun had to put all 28-29 rounds through a hole the size of an Australian penny. Those are a bit smaller than one inch across. This suggests to me that Australian .303 SAAmunition was excellent in quality. I doubt that the ammo used at Lithgow was 'selected' in any way. Lithgow also made the SMLE III and SMLE |II(T) heavy-barreled and scoped version. The problems you've revealed add to my overall view that Germany lost WWII by going to war in the first place. I had met quite a few members of the 9th Division 2nd AIF who had served in the Tobruk siege, and had told me how easy they'd found it to suppress MG34 teams with their Bren guns. It seems that ammunition quality was a factor, on top of the greater accuracy of the Bren gun.

[@elingeniero9117]

I would take issue with the assertion that the replacement of steel cases for brass was the main culprit in the loss of accuracy, stoppages or accelerated wear of German weapons. Germany's shortage of lead was extremely critical and the production of lead batteries for U-Boats, Tropedos, Panzers and trucks took priority. This was as critical as the copper shortage. Germany resorted to using a steel jacketed bullet with a steel core surrounded by a thin cushion of lead to allow the bullet to obturate. Variations in the concentricity of the core lead to decrease accuracy. All steel sintered bullets were also produced and issued to Pistol and MP-40 use. This combined with the inability to fully meet demand for small arms munitions led to the inevitable decline in quality as the situation grew increasingly desperate. The soviets took the German bullet technology, adopted it and supplied it to China as a means of keeping costs low.

[@ChucksSEADnDEAD]

Thanks for the information. It's really crazy that sintering was used at that time.

[@damiandunbar6702]

Great information, thanks for the video

[@sarcasmo57]

Good work doing all that in English gentlemen.

[@chrisbrent7487]

I would think the MG34 would have been better with steel cased ammo than the MG42 due to the different locking systems. I have also read that the WW2 vintage MG42's use to have out of battery detonations as well occasionally. Enough that post war guns were reengineered so that the issue could not occur.

[@Pablo668]

I certainly did learn something. Thanks!

[@python27au]

Even if it wasn’t legal your in Switzerland, hardly a threat to me😁 collect what you like 👍

[@essentialjazzforaspiringmu1605]

Hi guys thanks for tuning into another video on forgotten ammo dot com, Im military history not visualized, and todaaaay

[@prechabahnglai103]

Interesting, never thought of this before.

[@ice1032]

I’ve noticed that the German speaking world loves creating variants

[@theicelandicnationalist2.023]

“Yes this is true” - Rogal dorn

[@SonOfTheDawn515]

We Americans are no exception.

[@Slithermotion]

@@SonOfTheDawn515 The difference is that swiss german(dialect) has different grammar, vocabulary and pronounciation. Germans usually don't understand swiss german and some even consider it a seperate language. Compared to that US english and UK english have minor differences. But then the US splitted 200-300 years ago linguisticly europe linguistic influence of England and the german language have splitted throughout history. Dutch, Yiddish, PA Dutch, Frisian, Standard German ect. can all be considered to be a part of german as a Dachsprache. And when I mean german I don't refer to the german that Germans consider as "german". It sounds confusing, and it is because people mess up with the term or miss use it. Uhhh...sry for the mental diarrhea but maybe it gives an insight of the german language. And that Germany german is not the "original" or only german. The germans were just smart enough to call their country germany so now everyone thinks that their language is the correct one :D

[@SonOfTheDawn515]

@@Slithermotion No, I find it weird that certain dialects are considered German when they aren't "German." Just confusing.

[@SonOfTheDawn515]

@@Slithermotion And I lived in Germany for a couple of years and came across different versions. If I recall there are something like 18 German dialects.

[@JoeDiGiovanniIV]

I dont know what's cooler, the MG or the old school broom in the corner

[@oscarsusan3834]

If you think the Germans had issues with ammo ,the Japanese had it way worse.

[@princeofcupspoc9073]

When you are sending submarines to resupply your island bases, you know you are in it deep.

[@geronimo5537]

The entire time I was thinking lacquer/wax will make steel case a non problem. And that is what they did. lol

[@petersouthernboy6327]

I shoot competitive rifle matches and reload. Its true that steel case ammo tends to stick in chambers and fail to eject. Which takes you out of the fight at the worst possible time.

[@YuryTimofeyev]

Learned something new. Very interesting topic.

[@dannyb3663]

I always think of this guy as 'oh, its that weheecleee guy!'

[@markrowland1366]

Brass is copper with zinc. Copper and tin make bronze. Brass will expand and contract more comfortably. Reusable several times.

[@MilitaryHistoryNotVisualized]

see pinned comment.

[@mabul513]

Warched an army collecting show and he spoke of tank parts of full American tanks sitting in oil to keep them from rust. It was the main tank usa used and best they had. The guy on the show says ! Oh there are lots of soares in German? They had them stored so getting parts/ panels will be easy? Then wondered why they would be all ready in Germany stored? Unless afterwards!, but if tanks are in America would they go putting them in German cellar?

[@bryanmcdermott4204]

Excellent discussion gentlemen

[@GCJT1949]

Things I did not know. Thank you.