The Gospel of Thomas & Acta Thomae

[@abc_cba]

I was fascinated to read that there were Copper Edicts in the Chola or Chera Empire by the name Quilon Syrian copper plates in the year 850 CE, it sounds like India had Christians established long before Europeans were tolerant to the new religion. I also read somewhere that there was a Coptic/Egyptian Priest Jerome in 3rd CE/AD also resonates on similar writing which was similar to Eusebius of Caesarea, an early Christian historian, mentioned the mission of Saint Pantaenus to India in the early 4th century. According to Eusebius, Pantaenus traveled to India around 180 AD and discovered the Gospel of Matthew among the local population, which was reportedly left there by Saint Bartholomew (considered a martyr and patron Saint of Armenians) somewhere in Kalyan region of West Maharashtra. I may not be a Christian, but it is still a matter of pride of how rich our Indian heritage is that it was a hub for Christians outside their Biblical Belt. Somewhere, Coonan Cross Covenant of Syria Christians on 3 January 1653 against Portuguese Catholics and strong rebellions and protests against the European Jesuits also proves how grounded Syriac Christians were to their motherland as well as close knitted to their native church established in India. I always read history with a pinch of salt, so, it can be exaggerated or all that to some, to some it may be real. To me, it's part of history and everyone should read about it. Infact, I was surprised to know that India was mentioned in the Old Testament book of the Biblical Jewish-Persian Queen Esther as Huda. Looks like, India was truly a gem 💎 back then!!

[@jaihind6395]

We alvars and nayanars why there are no Christian related groups in bhakthi there is no mention of cheistianity during bhakthi movement. If Christian were there during bhakthi movement adi shankaracharaya have debated with Christians. There are no Christian upto before 9th century Christians arrived in india after 10th century that was sirian Christians. No Christians were there in india before between 9th and 10th it is only after 10th. If have any sources let me know pls 🙏

[@wneo7]

@@jaihind6395 Did Shankaracharaya debate Jews? Weren't there Jews in the region during his time? Did he debate them?

[@jaihind6395]

​@@wneo7jews historically recorded what about christians but jews nevwr tried to convert others if Christian preaches their religion and that too brahmins converted to Christianity there should be debate or atleast christians songs group of people like alavars and nayanars

[@wneo7]

@@jaihind6395 There was debate in the early church as to whether "converts" to the "new" faith must adopt Jewish practices and worship styles or Christianity constituted a distinct faith separate from Judaism. The debate is so old that the New Testament itself has record of elements of this debate. One can read more about it in the Wikipedia article 'Jewish Christianity'. As the article points out, it took quite some time for Christianity to emerge as a distinct faith. Given that it was primarily among Jewish communities that the new ideas were initially disseminated, one can imagine that Thomas (whoever he was) headed to the Malabar coast precisely because of the existing Jewish presence there. If there were non-Jewish (Gentile) "converts" to the "new" faith", wouldn't it be fair to assume that character of their religious practices would have primarily been Jewish, and the same dynamic that was playing out elsewhere between Jews and Gentiles adherents of the new faith, also played out in Malabar? You contend that there was no record of a debate, and there were no songs, and therefore no Christians. The Judeo-Christian ideas are radically different from any of the existing religious traditions in the region. Why must we assume that adherents of the new ideas, notwithstanding later cultural syncretism, retained their old religious practices? As in, if Syriac is the language of liturgy now and for the last couple of centuries, it could have well been the case Hebrew preceded it. Why must we expect Sanskrit or the vernacular? Please note that I merely wish to address the arbitrariness of your criteria. As the video mentions, this is legend. You say that the Jews did not proselytize and therefore there is no record of a debate with the Jews. Well, is it possible that the Saint Thomas Christians of Malabar, after their initial conversions, didn't proselytize either and therefore there is no record of a debate with them? As for your contention that the presence of Jews has been historically recorded and Christians were not, I believe it is made in bad faith. A simple web search lead me to sources that predate the timeline that you have quoted by several centuries.

[@alangervasis]

Short and Concise.

[@ruthnovena40]

That was quite eye opening.

[@jaihind6395]

If thoma came to to which books he bought to india is there any text during 52 CE that any converted Christian in kerala written text whatever thoma preached?

[@ambroseaarondavid9677]

Unfortunately I can't seem to find much texts or manuscripts that do so. Only thing we have are oral traditions but they cannot be fully trusted according to historical standards.

[@jaihind6395]

​@@ambroseaarondavid9677no atleast at any time they may write about thoma in books we indians already have written tradition in 1st century atleast in bhakthi movement in 7tg century no songs keerthanas groups like nayanars and alvars in bhakthi movement i think it's just a story to prove that christianity in india to convert people in Christianity

[@wneo7]

Why must he bring any books? If he was the disciple of Jesus, he was simply narrating his own experience. There were already Jews in Malabar.

[@jaihind6395]

​@@wneo7I'm asking about if Christianity during 52CE some body should note about his preachings in india why there o text related to thoma we have many scripts during 1st century

[@wneo7]

@@jaihind6395 And I'm asking why must there be? How many gurus did the Sikhs have before anything was written down?

[@wneo7]

Once again, my comment is hidden while the comment made in bad faith to which I was responding is visible. Sigh.

[@jaihind6395]

If thoma came to india why there are no inscriptions. in bhakthi movement why there are no songs related to thoma or jesus if thoma came to india why church construction style is similar to Catholic or syria it should be either isreal or indian temple style right? If thoma came to India aadi shankaracharaya have debated with Christians. Is there any any evidences? Christians debated with Hindus. actually Christians never do idol worship how did they use mery idol and jesus idols. We have vishanavites and shivites in bhakthi movement and there many groups in Hindus but i never heard about christians in bhakthi movement no group of people related to Christians no songs related to Christians no dances no bajanas no keerthanas how can we say thoma came to india except his tomb. There are many tombs of thoma all over the world

[@vakarthi4]

well said. Brazilians also believe St Thomas died after visiting South America so one of the stories is clearly a lie, or maybe both are false. While St Thomas christians certainly visited India and Malabar, St Thomas himself never did. This is a colonial era lie that is still being propagated to ensure evangelization of India. Acknowledging this fact does not really rob the St Thomas Indian christians of their heritage. But it does help denounce this colonial narrative that was used to convert South Indians.

[@adityamohan1773]

That's a very good point actually. When Adi Shankaracharya mentioned so many other philosophies this very distinct philosophy wasn't that talked upon.

[@alangervasis]

​​@@adityamohan1773He also didn't mention about Jews, Parsis and Muslims who were also present in India at that time. So that line of logic doesn't work.

[@jaihind6395]

​@@adityamohan1773without lies Christianity dies

[@jaihind6395]

​@@alangervasis I think u r line of doesn't work parsis and jews they don't preach their religion to others they dont try to convert but thoma converted many to Christianity that too brahmins then brahmins may have converted many Christians why there are no Christians debated with aadi shankaracharaya there no songs keerthanas bajanas definately thaoma not came to india 1century to 7th century nearly 600 years Christianity but no converted Christians its impossible man

[@jaihind6395]

Hooked story by colonies

[@wneo7]

I think you meant 'cooked' and 'colonialists'. Anyway, what purpose did it serve them to cook this up? You do know that Portuguese colonialists and Saint Thomas Christians came into conflict, right?

[@ambroseaarondavid9677]

As I said before Dutch and Portuguese were Catholic and the British were Protestant. Why would they want to convert people to another sect of Christianity they don’t believe in.

[@jaihind6395]

​@@wneo7 very simple ans just to convert people into Christianity if people convert to Christianity no body fight againt them every body who converted will definately support as simple as that

[@jaihind6395]

​​@@ambroseaarondavid9677 Portuguese wanted to convert local people into Christianity why British will come here man thry want to convert local people for support i didn't get u r question do u know many Christians in Pondicherry and goa are Catholic Christians who converted by Portuguese every body will believe they just want to say even india has Christianity through that they will convert people

[@adityasundar324]

@@wneo7 That's because they wanted to say that they were't the first Christians on the Coromandel coast. They wanted to appropriate an non-existing legacy. The fact is, the present Santhome church was built on what was once Kapaleeshwara temple. The Europeans had every reason to divide and confuse the Indians. Be it dividing on religious lines or propagating the Aryan Invasion theory. They wanted to fragment the Indian society. This can be put to rest when excavations are done in the Santhome and carbon dating the remains of Alleged St. Thomas. But the Christian propaganda will be exposed if that happens and they would NOT agree for it.

[@jaihind6395]

Thoma did not come to india he travelled upto Afghanistan

[@wneo7]

Do you have any source for this?