The Great August Debate feat. Plat Chat (Custa, Jake & Jaws)

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Timestamps
0:00 Introductions
3:15 PvE & Their Legendary Run
14:22 Public Perception of Overwatch
50:20 Problems Of The Comp System
1:14:24 Game Balance, Illari & Role Differences
1:35:10 Should 6v6 Come Back?
1:46:44 State of Tanks
2:06:30 Concluding Thoughts

[@GroupUp]

This episode was recorded on 25/08/23. Podcast links below! If you're enjoying this content, why not check out SVB's stream (www.twitch.tv/svb_ ) or his second channel The Soak (youtube.com/@TheSoak ) where he does movie, TV & anime breakdowns! The best way to support the podcast is still www.patreon.com/svb Soundcloud: soundcloud.com/ow_svb/the-great-august-debate Spotify: open.spotify.com/show/6sRWutKTc0gnWuguo62Vpa Apple Podcasts: podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/svbs-group-up/id1490256265a

[@ObeseWizard]

Just let the players decide if they want to see their SR or not. I get that a lot of people's moods are ruined when they lose matches. That's fine, they can keep the system as it is and just see the cards pop up when they win. I'm not GM, but I would love if there was an option in the settings to turn that system off and see my SR number go up and down. Plus if it is an option, then if I'm having a bad day for whatever reason, I can just turn back to the current card system for the day and easily ignore my losses and just enjoy the game.

[@levanoon9286]

Yeah current system is ass, I got rerank going 5:1 and can’t explain why?? Also when you already got you lose streak of 4 loses you aren’t motivated to play further because you got re/derank anyway

[@agranite9776]

problem with legendary, you need a stack to grind it. for me, my friends all quit the game, so it is difficulty to do legendary solo queue. We don't have LFG to deal with it.

[@Ovadiazigi]

Ofcourse, because its boring af

[@ReaveIdono]

Good thing Xbox has a built in LFG feature.

[@diegocorvalan5435]

I miss LFG

[@fuscello]

I don’t even think the legendary was even made with randoms in mind, if it’s doable without comms, synergy and comps, then it’s too easy for people that are in a group… but you would punish people for playing with friends at that point

[@illitaret8780]

@@fuscelloit’s doable without coms, I’ve solo queued all on legend

[@Bebopvicious00]

I still dont understand how peole justify the monetization, based off other games that also have terrible monitization...

[@notreya]

i play the game now and prefer 5v5 and the content releases. I don't think anyone justifies this, we all think the prices are too high and that it is "overly monetized". Even your most hardcore overwatch fan cant defend stuff like $10 for orisa's dog emote. $5 would be too much, like its just an emote.

[@ljb5163]

I think the Battlepass price is pretty fair, you get a lot for the price. However, everything in the shop is overpriced and it doesn’t help that they try to make it look like it’s discounted.

[@notreya]

@@ljb5163 true, the bp is definitely fair imo.

[@fuscello]

They aren’t defending the monetisation, they are just explaining that the company needs to have a consistent influx of money to keep updating the game (why would you pay devs that work on something that doesn’t make any money?), so it’s simply a necessary evil for the live service… and after all, it’s just skins, who cares about them, you don’t need them, trust me

[@lucan465]

It is insane to me that people are saying the pve is good. If you can separate your experience playing with friends, and that it’s new, and you’re playing for to for goals and competing with others, and you’re also streaming for money, etc; and you just look at the product for what it is, there is no way anyone can tell me that is a good product. Everyone is entitled to an opinion, but it still baffles me. If you can separate all those things from the actual product; there is no way that pve is worth over $20 aus. If I was blizzard I’d be embarrassed about the pve and charging people that amount, for the actual dogshit experience that pve was. And it’s super scummy that the only way you can access it, is to pay for the battlepass as well. Blizzard reeks of corporate greediness. It’s lost it’s heart, and principles.

[@donnyboy7067]

I think I've watched every podcast but i couldnt finish this one. These guys are making every excuse in the book for this game. I dont think ive ever seen such blatant bias for a video game.

[@kobejo439]

Worst episode easily usually Svb tries to advocate for the casual but here the circle jerked about top 500, league of legends, and how monetization isn’t bad (they get payed to play💀) while dismissing any criticism anyone has because they may have quit the game. Yea of course people who have a ton of criticism are gonna quit the mf game it’s not fun

[@ikhalid1418]

at this point i wish they'd add 6v6 as a separate mode, to determine once and for all what the majority player base want.

[@theallbeard746]

Or just to allow those of us who prefer 6v6, even if we're a minority, to play the game we actually want to play (and that some of us originally bought).

[@ikhalid1418]

@@theallbeard746 fair point. but 5v5 (you know, the main game mode!) barely gets 2 patches a season (every 2 months), and they're almost always just number tweaks. there's no way they're sustaining 2 different game modes, with two different balancing requirements, for longer than a trial period.

[@theallbeard746]

@ikhalid1418 True enough. That's why I don't think they'd ever do it. Though, I suppose I'd even prefer if they just put up 6v6 in arcade with only one initial balance patch and then never touch it again. I know they wouldn't do that either, but I can dream lol

[@ikhalid1418]

@@theallbeard746 you're expecting too much from this small billion dollar indie company.

[@tryingtochangemyways5074]

We want 6v6 but they won't do that because people will stop playing 5v5.Only these guys will play 5v5 because they scared of Shields

[@tropicata]

Removing the rank icon in the bottom left of your HUD is still one of the most baffling changes for OW2. Even excluding content creators, it was just nice always having your rank reflected on screen in a comp game. It gave your rank a sense of tangibility. The same goes for seeing other players' ranks on the scoreboard. Keeping everything hidden is so frustrating. I'm a plat-diamond support and I can confidently tell you the new ranking system has done nothing but discourage me from wanting to queue comp. It's a failure in basically every facet. So no, it absolutely isn't just the top 1% who hate it lol

[@borisvandepoel2703]

Praise to this comment!

[@notreya]

the devs put a "👀" on a tweet that shared this complaint on twitter the other day

[@Donler]

Yes, this!

[@KOL0125]

I agree with this until you’re the lowest rank and teammates blame the loss on you even if you’ve done your fair share because they default the blame onto you since you’re the lowest rank.

[@DiogoUsagi]

Video starts, I'm just here hovering the mouse along the chapters to check which topics get touched on and I'm turning into the Vince Mcmahon meme. Bout to be a good one.

[@TheARESxGOD]

It wasnt just old OW players I think that is dismissing a lot of valid criticism. Skins are whatever price them at $500 per skin i really dont care, BUT putting a new hero behing the battle pass lol ? in a competitive game where a major part of the game balance and a major game mechanic is being able to swap on the fly to counter or when you get countered thats just dumb and greedy. Dota 2 has the best F2P monetization better than LoL and Apex and Valorant and OW2 where you have access to all existing and future heroes/characters/agents/champions whatever you want to call them and they only sell skins and skins dont matter. As for the lootboxes in general they are predatory and shit and yes the old level up system gave something for the players to play for and it was free but when you somehow make a worst monetization system than lootboxes that should say something. AND AGAIN SKINS DONT MATTER. As for 6v6 yes it was better and no the conversation will never go away, even you guys here on this podcast have critisized the tank roll of playing whack a mole lol. The game and maps were made around 6v6 and for 5v5 to work they would need major major changes to the core gameplay not to just the heroes. Can 5v5 get there ? maybe but its not yet there to where it feels better than 6v6. And also OW2 was a downgrade to features and let's not forget the PVElephant in the room lol that was just straight up bullshit and what we got and even asked to pay for it come one AND LEFT OW to die lol while they were working on OW2. So yes while there were a lot of jaded old ow players and funny lol you dismissed them with beta arguments haha but those arguments are as old as time but there are legit vaild reviews that OW dezerves to get a lot of flack for everything they did. And yes the team has done some good things and also this might be a new team inheriting the baggage of the old one be it from the devs or from the corpos but this is the current situations of OW2. Now i truly do wish for the game to improve and get better and bring back its reputation because ow HAD IT and IT WAS THE FPS GAME at some point but in typical blizzard fashion they make something great and then it goes down the drain. Can OW make a comeback yes 100% and I hope it does but I wont hold my breath. And for the people that threaten and insult and are absolute toxic pieces of shit need to get professional help and touch grass. And Diablo 4 is also a mess lol so its not just problems with OW its a problem with Activision/Blizzard in all of their games. TLDR: Skins dont matter do whatever but heroes behind bpass ruins the game and 6v6 was better and 5v5 is not YET there.

[@Beyondqqq]

It is a lot of old OW players or people who are flat out ignorant of the facts and watch gaming narrative channels like Asmon for any and all information. I can log onto OW now on a new account and get access to every character if I play enough and complete the challenges specific to their unlock. Get to level 45 on the free battle pass, and you unlock Illari this season. Their current monetisation system is 1 million times better than lootboxes and its not debatable, even if they were generous as far as lootboxes go. The chance/gambling aspect of lootboxes is abhorrent and I guarantee people would complain if they were still in the game.

[@lehocool7449]

Also 6v6 is undoubtedly worse the only reason you think differently is because of nostalgia

[@HaibaneKuu]

For "but Apex has expensive cosmetics!" take - well, Apex gives you plenty of free lootboxes, free event lootboxes, Apex battlepass gives you more premium currency than it costs to buy, unlike Overwatch one, so I'm not exactly sure if you compare all the details like that, it will make look like Overwatch is better.

[@Beyondqqq]

Yeah, plenty of free lootboxes for a below 1% chance to earn those cosmetics. It might be easy and cool to hate on Blizzard at the moment, but don't let that distract you from the fact that EA are continually voted as the worst company for a reason. Battlefront 2, fifa and Apex, a shining example of fucking over consumers with greedy practices that go far beyond anything Blizzard have come close to.

[@HaibaneKuu]

@@Beyondqqq I mean 0% chance of getting cosmetics for free vs below 1% chance of getting it for free. I think second one is better. Oh and that's the heirlooms, for regular cosmetics - you get plenty of those by playing normally and not spending money. You also can get those for events. It's not about hating on Blizzard, it's just pointing out that Apex monetization is just better. You can view it as fucking over customers, and I didn't even say that it's good or ideal, I'm just saying that Overwatch one is worse. Can't comment on battlefront or fifa for I haven't played those games.

[@ironman1458]

@@Beyondqqq the fact you had to completely ignore "Apex battlepass gives you more premium currency than it costs to buy" to make your point says everything. That sentence alone makes it more generous than OW2. Blizzard literally copied from their playbook except made it even greedier. Its actually crazy you people can still find a way to defend it lol

[@Beyondqqq]

@@HaibaneKuu It just is not though. First of all, you can earn a shit ton of skins, voicelines etc etc by just playing the game and earning credits. You could even buy legendaries from the shop if you complete enough challenges to get currency, but it'll take months in isolation. Second, OW skins and a lot of the cosmetics are of much higher quality than Apex reskins, sorry skins. People rightly pointed out the new DVA reskin for being a money grab? That's a norm for Apex and has been for as long as I remember. Third, this illusion of earning content from just playing the game that EA paint with most of their products is complete and utter bullshit. If you want the best stuff, you either get ridiculously lucky, no life the game and complete like 8000 games until you're guaranteed a heirloom from opening 500 lootboxes or you drop upwards of 100 dollars and buy it. People who think that this mystical chance at earning everything for free makes their outrageous prices, the constant re-skins and some absolutely dog-tier cosmetics(even legendaries) tolerable need help. Also...they have had some absolute drivel battle pass content that even last season of OW2 didn't come close to.

[@HaibaneKuu]

@@Beyondqqq You are just defending blizzard. Don't. They aren't any better than EA. But truth is, I paid for battle pass once, and I got a lot of cosmetics in apex throughout my time in it. There's plenty of good skins, some from battlepass, some from events, some from lootboxes. You? You can't even play new hero at the start of the season unless you pay money. And nobody ever talked about "earning everything" - that's just not how these systems are designed.

[@mattr2118]

It is embarrassing how dismissive they are of any negative sentiment around overwatch. These people have no idea what it's like to be a casual overwatch fan because they've ate, slept, & breathed overwatch since literally pre-release in the pro-player beta. Most of the people leaving reviews probably tried OW2, found it to be dogshit with awful game modes like push & 5v5/tanks changes ruining modes like no limits & mystery heroes, and did not appreciate the "benefits" of 5v5 or the changes to monetization. But they can't see past their own bubble.

[@mossup-]

100%

[@mattr2118]

They call us naive but then ignore the fact that there are features of other battle passes in the industry that OW2 chooses to forego that make it massively worse and make us feel like it's predatory. So many ways they could improve the battle pass/monetization to make it feel more fair without significantly affecting their bottom line. 1. Fortnite Battle Pass you can earn enough silver to purchase the next one if you complete the battle pass. 2. Halo Infinite your battle pass doesn't expire, so you can always earn the content even if you don't play enough to complete the battle pass that season. 3. Shop prices for skins we only see when we emote(outside of the gun) costing more than the battle pass feels weird. But hey, it's not like having a good battle pass that respects players time would draw in more players & turn more of them into spenders. Instead the battle pass requires so much grind to unlock the only skin worth the price of admission, as well as locks heroes behind it. If you want to be a free to play player, you get like 2 bad skins & a few sprays for your trouble, and god forbid you're a casual that only a plays a few hours a week. You'll never see the return on your time like you did back in OW1.

[@LunaticKing-fj3hp]

​​@@mattr2118no you are kinda being unfair to overwatch with the fortnite comparison Fortnite makes vast majority of their money from skins alone so they can afford to just give battlepasses away to the amount of players who complete the battle pass. I don't think overwatch cosmetics make that much more money compared what the battle pass brings to do that. Though I agree with the rest

[@why8642]

You are delusional if you think a majority of the non Chinese reviews are legitimate. You are projecting, you are in your own bubble

[@fuscello]

When I first try a game I actively WANT to get shitted on, if as a first time user I can already win against someone who has played for countless hours, why should I even play? Is there even anything to learn? I genuinely think that overwatch is amazing as a first time user, you have got all these heroes to try and learn, what other games has that? Maybe valorant and apex (even though apex has only 1 passive, 1 ability and 1 ult)? If you leave a bad review because you didn’t even try to learn the game, then I would reconsider trying anything else but what you are already accustomed to

[@deeziegaming8545]

I'm so tired of this "6v6 was bad because double shields" literally most of the double shields got fixed with orisa rework and could do something similar for the remaining shield tanks. Samito just posted a why 5v5 is worse video completely stomps the 5v5 > 6v6 take

[@kobejo439]

Samito was spitting in that video off tank is a dead role and as an ex tank main who loved off tank I’d rather get hit by a train than play tank in 2023 shit is painful

[@deeziegaming8545]

@@kobejo439 amen! Tank feels terrible now I hate having to go back to me default rein every time junker queen or roadhog isn't working out for me 😭

[@alfredogonzalez9420]

let me save you the 2 hours guys, this episode was the "yes man" squad, in short blizzard is doing so great no need to complain you whiny casuals, the streamers know best cause they make money from playing and talking about 1 game for multiple years.

[@kobejo439]

Worst episode yet this circle jerk was super dismissive of anyone that has any problems with the game. Svb usually moderates better and brings up the causal player but this time he just kinda let them dismiss us and even kinda joined in on it

[@xRichieeex]

think they miss the mark of why there's people that want 6v6 back, I think it's unique that characters did something specific. I loved overwatch because it wasn't like these other games, Now the game feels like it's become deathmatchy and generic. I was also a big fan of the two tank dynamic as a tank player, it was just far more interesting and fun. Now tank is extremely boring and it just feels like a dps with more health.

[@ReaveIdono]

Except those synergies made other roles useless. Such as DVA who doesn't have to front line and only needs to focus on covering flanks. Which is why 6v6 devolved into poke while hiding behind double shield.

[@xRichieeex]

@@ReaveIdono I remember double shield becoming a thing because the game had so much damage . You would run rein/zar and the zarya bubble would pop as rein went to swing . The game still kinda has crazy damage

[@queenpen1398]

Agree with this 100%. They are think too much of the high end of player instead of how most player played it. All the off tank feel terrible and out of place. Hog, Zayra and Ball feel horrible as front line tanks

[@ReaveIdono]

@queenpen1398 Ball isn't a front line tank and Zarya feels fine she's my most played Tank next to Winston. Hog is getting reworked.

[@ReaveIdono]

@xRichieeex Right but the damage angles were negated so powerfully by DVA which is why people had to hide behind shields as the most effective way to play. DVA covered any angle at any time and could even kill a DPS or support trying to off angle.

[@pickles168]

Lol I think this episode was best summed up when one of the guests basically said "the steam release was good because OW2 can target new player who don't know how much they previously fucked up". I know you guys make your living playing OW2 but come on

[@ReaveIdono]

They dev team didn't deliver. That can't be argued. But to say they fucked up is what they are saying is the stupid part

[@fuscello]

Yep the previous team fucked up, the new team doesn’t deserve any of this, they have been put on a shipwreck and they are trying to make the best of it, but all of the community hates them for what they haven’t done and praises the old devs as if they didn’t create the current problems in the first place

[@HaibaneKuu]

You guys saying that well those who complained about 5v5, they haven't played against double shield - even if this is true, there's implication that 6v6 is impossible without having double shield comp. But it wasn't always double shield while the game was 6v6, was it not? I don't have a horse in this race to be honest, I just noticed that there's this implication that the only solution to double shield is to remove one tank, which seems fallacious to me. And similarly regarding lootboxes and leveling: "You are not missing the leveling system, you are missing getting free lootboxes every level." While this is most certainly true, why is this not a valid point of view to hold?

[@pibble9207]

Exactly lol. They've already reworked characters like Orisa AND Bastion to negate the bunker playstyle, as well as remove choke laden maps like 2CP maps. And yeah the lootbox system in OW1 was very generous out of any game I ever played. I got free skins and I was incentivised to play Arcade. That doesn't exist now and OW is far worse off for it.

[@vopcracker3193]

Lootboxes aren't coming back, too many countries have made it outright illegal, so I'm fine with just giving the Battle Pass slightly better shit. The bigger issue to me is the lack of 6v6. While I do like the greater emphasis on your OWN skill with 5v5, I can't help but feel the copy/paste nature of this game means a lot of what makes OW2 still playable resides in decisions made with that original 6v6 composition. I'd be curious how viable it would be with the newer balance changes and character.

[@dogs-game-too]

Jake's comment about how corporations exist only to make money was the hardest pill for me to swallow in business school. Basically in their mind if something is unethical it will be illegal, if it's not then it's fair play and money is all that matters. I don't agree but that's the world we live in

[@mag1ckyle799]

bro this is me everyday in my business classes lol

[@deyeti]

I don't know that I've heard worse takes on the public perception of OW2. First, they are framing it up like the only revenue stream that Blizzard got off OW1 was the actual box price of the game; completely ignoring that people bought loot boxes and that was in place to support further development of heroes, maps, skins, etc. And while maybe these guys had every skin in the game just from grinding out loot boxes, that was far from the average player's experience. And even with OW2, most people aren't upset that the game is f2p and that it is monetized, but the price of cosmetics, and especially legendary skins is just insane. Compare it to just about any other comparable game and OW2 legendary skins are disgustingly priced. And that is on top of Blizzard taking away players' ability to even earn things at a decent rate. You get a pittance of coins and it takes months to earn a single legendary skin. The battle pass is one of the worst of its kind. It is boring, linear, with way too much filler that nobody cares about on top of the fact that you can't even earn the premium currency. Again, most of OW2's competitors have battle passes that reward you for putting in the time and effort to complete them including earning back the currency cost of the pass. OW2 just gives you the legacy currency and tells you to deal with it. Bad takes from people who are so far removed from the normal experience they can't even understand why people are upset.

[@benlane1623]

L + ratio doesnt understand successful business models that sustain games long term.

[@deyeti]

@@benlane1623 Agreed, Blizzard really doesn't

[@ironman1458]

@@benlane1623 Ratio'd yourself lol. Delete this bro

[@andrzejstarzyk1218]

'' I want to win today, but I'm only gonna play sym on Junkertown. ''

[@Donler]

We [the people below GM] do not want heroes with significantly higher skill caps than other heroes, and we also do not want heroes that can do everything. We want a balanced roster of unique heroes within a self-explanatory SR system that doesn't derank you after going 5W - 2L.

[@ironman1458]

And who made you the spokesman for 99% of the playerbase?

[@alexcypriano9985]

why would you not want heroes with higher skill caps? just say you’re bad and leave

[@Donler]

@@alexcypriano9985 @alexcypriano9985 All heroes should have near-equal viability and skill-expression at the highest of levels. Otherwise, why bother deducting hours to learning a hero when you know it has no potential at higher ranks?

[@ironman1458]

@@Donler Because you enjoy the character or find them fun? xd

[@Donler]

@@ironman1458 The "because its fun" reasoning only goes as far as QP and Arcade. Anyone looking to improve at a hero shouldn't have their skill hard capped below the rest of the playerbase because they chose a different main.

[@010010100100101001]

Look, guys, I really appreciate your take on high level play. But the truth is 98,5% of comp OW players are not aiming to be T500, because we all know they can't achieve it . Lower skill players play comp because at least there, one expects that the team is trying to play the objective and their roles, but I can assure you not everyone aspires to be T500 or GM. Even this is a niche group of players considering the whole playerbase. Most play QP / DM / Arcade.

[@The_LightArrow]

It went from being rewarding to play and having built in progression to having to pay for progression and being unfun to play. Idk man ow just doesn't feel the same, it feels like it lost something.

[@muckdriver]

I keep hearing this argument "people don't understand game dev" "people want everything for free". No, people understand basic transactions and the companies just cover their ears and play dumb. they essentially revoked access to base game cosmetics for everyone, I paid full 60. I should have acces to all launch content. No ifs ands or buts. I was given some surface level terms, I accepted and they closed the deal. If they want to change directions for future stuff that's fine but you can't just take away what was given at the start. Imagine if we had to unlock all heroes. Honestly this argument always makes devs sound like they don't know how human interactions and transactional scenarios work. I know most devs likely aren't this dumb and it's just greedy suits at the top but that's how the argument comes off whenever presented.

[@indeboss]

So by this logic, when you bought OW1 you should've had all the cosmetics unlocked? No one took anything that you'd already owned from you when they switched to f2p. And, on top of that, you were still given a chance to get the stuff from OW1 without wasting your money. The switch happened to Rocket League, CS:GO, Fall Guys, probably a bunch of other games. As Jake explained, that's how live-service games live now.

[@fuscello]

First of all, you even said it, the devs don’t do these legal decisions at all, so the “devs aren’t lazy” argument is really valid (also because, spoilers, it’s true); second of all, the corporate guys have lawyers that know the law better than any of us, in the “surface level terms” there was 100% written that you weren’t obtaining anything but a key to enter the overwatch servers while buying the game. It’s not that word for word, but it’s something similar and you accepted it when buying the game

[@josephrodriguez59]

How ‘bout blizzard just release OW2 by shutting down OW1 servers and you lose all your online pvp only content like every other company does?

[@ironman1458]

@@josephrodriguez59 To say every other company does this is a straight up lie. Its not true of sports games, its not true of fighting games, and its not true of any other shooter that I have ever played or heard of. When they drop a new call of duty they close the servers for all older games and everybody loses all their pvp only content? No way you actually believe this shit you wrote

[@josephrodriguez59]

@@ironman1458 so butthurt in your own little world. You don’t realize that there’s not infinite gamers. We’re now at a point where there’s more games than gamers. Gamers have to make a choice what to play. And every choice dwindles player base for other games not chosen. A game releasing sequel and keeping both original and sequel servers open is even worse feeling than closing server entirely. At least with closed server means we can all move on with our lives and play other games to full integrity. If you truly believe that you can play your original game to the same integrity when the sequel exists then you’re so ignorantly blind believing your premeditated beliefs that you might as well stare in a corner and use your ignorant willpower to believe you’re playing best game ever. Take your nostalgia bias elsewhere. Game dev is a job; not spiritual enlightenment. Jobs are for money. Regular people need money to live in this terribly capitalistic market. You’ll grow up one day and go to work… doing things, developing things, building things, teaching things, spreading things… that not everyone will agree with. And ignorant you won’t even realize that others are against because you’ll probably work in a non “public” facing industry with no feedback loop. You’re greedy, lazy, and ignorantly whiny. Grow up and stop complaining about the most globally agreed upon phenomena: we all want/need money.

[@Nynzy]

Every time I hear these it sounds like they would love Paladins. Most every hero has a mobility and items can let you heal etc. I preferred 6v6 personally, but that is never coming back, and I like 5v5 well enough outside of the constant counterswapping tank game.~

[@CSyoutube5673]

Isn't it obvious why people do not like Overwatch? There's a lot of reasons to choose from but I think the most obvious one is it's frustrating to play. Imagine being an average gold player getting virtually bullied a couple games in a row because the QP match making is shit... mixing low-level and high-level players together in the same lobby. Imagine how the gold player feels being spawn camped by a couple sweaty friends who are around diamond / master.... You really think they're gonna click the queue button again? lmao.... They booting up Steam to tell Overwatch to go fuck itself. lmao

[@prestigiouschili7911]

Ayyy holllerrr. I caught it within 5 minutes of upload. I love listening to these as I fall asleep, and then listening to it again during work.

[@stephanyjablonofsky9749]

Honestly, i kinda love the card system, but i understand the problems with it. I believe we should have both sr and the card system. People could togle off the sr if they want

[@zc8673]

As a plat player, i strongly dislike the current comp system, it is extremely unrewarding. I would much prefer a system closer to the old SR system, comp should be something to take seriously. They just need to release an unranked version of the comp mirror format so people can still play real OW but leave comp to the serious players.

[@DriplessShrimp]

You all are great. Its hard to listen to the talk and assume its unbiased when you all make money off OW. A good chunk of this conversation was you all defending Activision Blizzard a multibillion dollar company. They dont need to be so greedy. They monetize like a gacha game. Just give players the option to turn the rank numbers on or off.

[@thepoofster2251]

Lol, smoothbrain take

[@MTerry44718]

I still think it's wrong that new Hero releases are paywalled. Maybe not at the top, but in plat/diamond there are too many people who just don't have them. It's a serious issue, and it gets no attention.

[@lehocool7449]

Bruh just play the game a bit and you will get it

[@fuscello]

Yes, should definitely be addressed, if they really want to paywall heroes in some fashion, they could make it so you automatically unlock the hero after 2 weeks (when it enters comp), so giving the pals buying the pass some fun (even though it’s still practice) in quick play

[@ironman1458]

@@lehocool7449 How do I stop myself from getting put into comp games with people who havent farmed the new hero and we lose cause we dont have the same level of bs? Its an integrity issue even if you personally farmed all the characters its a complete lottery if both teams are on equal footing considering how important counterpicks are in this game. not even just about new characters, the same happened to JQ when they gigabuffed her and you could just get matched with a tank who didnt unlock her and autolose to somebody spamming her for free wins. For so many characters that have been meta the only way to contest them is to mirror them, you can have teammates that are unable to do that because they didnt pay up or care enough about this dumpster fire of a game to grind qp for a week. Or you can mirror them and your teammate doesnt have the support that synergizes perfectly with your tank, and their team does. Also, its a lot more annoying to unlock characters once they left the battlepass. So new players or people who didnt play for their season it takes a lot more than "just play a little bit" its more like "go sit in qp playing heroes you dont care about for 10 hours" Its genuinely mind boggling to defend this system. Yes other game do this but they dont let you change heroes mid game to counter the enemy team so its not important to have every character. Overwatch was LITERALLY DESIGNED around all players having all the characters because of how important swapping mid game is. And they just made it worse in every single way for the sake of nothing but money. Why cant they just create a COMPETITIVE system with COMPETITIVE integrity, I think thats a lot easier than telling millions of people "just go sit in qp bored out your mind for 30 hours before playing the mode you actually want to play, whats the big deal" (and you didnt even acknowledge how you still get matched with teammates who didnt farm the new meta hero or the ones from past seasons, and every game you queue is a lottery if both teams have the same options to them)

[@nufcjoker9057]

Could you get some sort of normal average “casual “ player on the podcast so we can get the majority of the player base pov ? Because these guys are clearly in the minority and refuse all critique !

[@CoopMoe]

"I don't know if anyone cares to have a conversation about this or can even think critically, but..." alright Jake.... GFY

[@WhatisaLee]

A majority player base pov requires data munging and analysis. Podcasts can only provide anecdotes unless you mean to have SVB interview millions of players in a 24/7 podcast for years on end. To have OWL casters on the podcast is actually more novel. Having seen most of his previous podcasts, it is rare for him to platform people with positive opinions on the game. To your point though, he’s had streamers with dissenting opinions before. Most of them have been more than critical enough. Having an average gamer unused to public speaking might be useful, but more likely, it will be unproductive because whatever opinions they might be able to express has probably already been said by SVB’s previous guests.

[@nufcjoker9057]

@@WhatisaLee how is an high level player more productive then the majority of the player base on a podcast ? Just because they have an higher better understanding of the games and mechanics doesn’t mean they know what’s best for the game or what’s the majority of people want , I mean even if he got a plat guy on I would be fun … you don’t need a lot of analysis if it’s the majority.. it could even be a content creators if it’s helps for views .. I’m just sick of hearing people complaining about high Elo problèmes that’s only really applies to a strict minority like 0,01 % of the player base , I don’t need there solutions because they want what’s best for there high elo .. not what’s best for the game

[@levanoon9286]

+1

[@bharathnaikkorra]

i just wanna thank you SVB for bringing my favorite casters together custa,jaws and jake i love them a lot and also loving this podacast

[@KingOfNebbishes]

I thought about taking a shot every time someone said "those people" and decided I like my liver. This is a great take on the game if you're one of the t500, and pretty dismissive of everyone who isn't. First cast I stopped halfway through because it was just....so dismissive.

[@stolensentience]

Total agree. I think they’re giving up on all the people reasonable enough to realize how shit the game has become and how hopeless it is that it will ever be as good as it *used to be* much less improve. Yet the game still has a base so it’s time to shift toward them.

[@gsoma4022]

Lmaooo I just finished watching the pve podcast today and already a new podcast?? Life has a way.

[@konradnemeth9789]

I love what Jake is saying, but man, someone has to tell that guy, that saying things once is enough. Half the podcast is just Jake repeating himself

[@KhaiShinryu]

One of my numerous concerns when I saw the guests for this episode. Plat Chat is pretty much the same. Unmoderated, lots of talking over each other and taking up a lot of time repeating the same points to almost a condescending level. There were a lot of good points made but man was it frustrating to try to listen to.

[@solomonterrell3051]

@47:17 Bruh, jake really tried to explain how its absurd to call Actiblizzion greedy💀😂

[@Flunksqk]

He is saying that Actiblizz is acting perfectly in line with how a publicly traded company optimally operates in capitalism. Which is true, it is "greedy" by nature. In that sense they're not acting more "greedy" than other players in this economy.

[@mauriceleromain9487]

Paid Opinion, makes no sense to invite these Blizzard employees. The difficulty of pve is based solely on raising the health and dmg numbers, no new attack patterns. Did not count how many different enemy types were there but it felt like the same enemies the whole time. One mission already existed 4years ago. Regarding the negative steam reviews, even if we ignore the reviews from china, the vast majority of them are negative. I still play ow2 but only for the lack of an alternative and would have also have reviewed it negative and many who still play would do the same. Look at the twitch viewership that is under 20k again. Look at the queue times. Nobody wants to play Tanks or Dps anymore because supports are op. Some tanks on a certain level aren't playable anymore. Half of support players don't bother to heal anymore and Illari will amplify this behaviour. Custa: "If you don't want to play this game anymore, don't play it!" It is happening and i'm happy that you lose your job, because you have no integrity. That I ever gave a shit about the opinion of these clowns, damn was i naive.

[@thepoofster2251]

Lol! Terrible opinion found! Go away

[@Kolby-jz2xk]

The sad part is new players don't play OW2. It's complicated, overwhelming for noobs and has the worst reputation. The best way to get new people in was to allow PvE content access without purchase. But ABK greed is going to kill the game. The hate is well founded, despite your income stream, sorry content creators.

[@Ember-wv8we]

You're so right, wish my friends who refuse to take on the learning curve of overwatch had a friendly way to learn with me. Then they might play PvP. I highly doubt there are significant numbers of new players (more then just an install and look see vs actual retention) with the steam release.

[@vopcracker3193]

I wouldn't apologize to content creators just yet, especially those on the Overwatch League side of the equation. Those guys in particular knew about PVE when the rest of the team did, and lied about it for a quick sponsorship check.

[@nuj6802]

I don’t know how this game is anymore complicated than a game like Valorant. I’d say Valorant is even less accessible to noobs as it is a tactical FPS.

[@Kolby-jz2xk]

@nuj6802 Overwatch has 38 heroes over 3 different role classes with min of 3 abilities and individual Ults, 9 game modes over 26 maps. All of which you need to know to be competitive. Valorant has 22 agents with skills and ults. 8 game modes, 12 maps. 4 roles and 17 shared weapons. Tactically its CSGO with magic. It's close but OW has more to learn to compete and there is nothing like OW. Maaaaybe tf2 but that's a reach. Note* I haven't played valorant since it came out so my numbers might be out of date

[@vopcracker3193]

​@@nuj6802it's the greater emphasis on abilites, cooldowns, and maximizing potential for your TEAM (despite the game actively becoming more individualistic) over just purely tactical gameplay. Also, Valorant still has its roots in FPS mechanics. While Overwatch does similarly, there's a lot more variety between characters in their playstyles and even methods of securing kills in general.

[@CoconutYoyo]

In my opinion they should remove the 25% ultimate reservation for tanks when swapping. There should be a cost for swapping otherwise you just swap to counter swap constantly.

[@frankmc8355]

It's really frustrating you can't actually bring someone who review-bombed the game onto the show. As someone who is very much on the side of the bombers, I feel like you're out of touch and dismissive. I usually listen to the podcast during my hour drive to work, but even though I'm a captive audience I couldn't take it after a half-hour of listening to it and swapped to something else.

[@GraphiteBlimp27]

They totally straw man 6v6 advocates… GOATS and double shield we solvable with balance for sure. All the devs needed to do was change a few principles: nerf AOE healing, make ranged poke tanks weak up close, revert some of the DPS buffs from GOATS era. Boom. Fun meta. Like they talk about double shield without mentioning Orisa/Sigma being better than Rein/Zarya up close and talk about GOATS and don’t talk about release Brig at all… that was why those metas existed and the devs never addressed those things in a timely fashion.

[@nicholasmessmer510]

I play ranked because it feels like an actual game. Quick play needs to follow the same rule set.

[@dogs-game-too]

I agree 5v5 is probably better overall, but my friends and I miss tank duo'ing. We went 5-1 and got diamond in open queue even with the nerfed tanks by going two tanks and asking our team to go 1 dps 2 supp. I honestly prefer it to regular ranked when the team is all on board

[@StuartFknLil]

You guys made some good points that people are oblivious to especially regarding game dev, but it really felt like you avoided bringing up the fact that most of the skins are 15 to $20, which is just a complete joke considering the price of overwatch 1 was $60 at time of release. Obviously the prices come from a different team that decides it but the fact remains that If the skins were priced reasonably like $5 per skin, blizzard would still make a butt load of money and players would be generally much happier with that.

[@StuartFknLil]

It's really not a good look defending exploitative and scummy business practices because other big games do it and it's a AAA industry standard. It shouldn't be industry standard, it's disgusting. We should talking against such obscene monetization.

[@SadMatte]

@@StuartFknLil I mean it's kinda a fair take, but they don't care because they're just skins in a game where skins don't make you better in any way

[@fuscello]

The devs don’t make the prices, and trust me when I say that only the devs listen to the community, there is no arguing with the higher ups if not with money. If they see that the shop isn’t making money than they will change it, but they don’t care if people are complaining if they are making all the money…

[@kayanono]

Liked the topics but the guests just kept repeating themselves. Was kinda exhausting towards the end

[@levanoon9286]

30:00 Yeah developing is hard but what the majority of players wanted already existed in Overwatch 1, their is nothing new we wanted

[@theallbeard746]

I've played regularly since 2017. 6v6 is vastly superior to 5v5. 2 tanks =/= only double shield. Removing a tank causes more problems than it solves. This might be especially true at the mid-ranks. For instance, Widows/Hanzos at high ranks might have better aim, but there's a high chance there will be decent aimers on both teams (plus better overall team coordination) so they can be contested. But at mid-ranks, while their aim is still significant, there's a good chance that only one team has a good aimer, meaning they cannot be contested. And so on for other examples (e.g., hyper mobility). High rank 5v5 enjoyers need to understand there are a significant number of us who genuinely prefer 6v6 and for whom 5v5 is an objective downgrade. 2 tanks in 6v6 is a necessary ingredient to keep the game *on the whole* properly balanced and in check. Some of us fell in love with Overwatch because it was NOT a traditional just-click-on-heads shooter. And I say this while also supporting the fact that lootboxes are gone and they now sell skins and have a battle pass. The game needs to be monetized. I'm actively spending money to support this game. I just wish it was the game I originally fell in love with and not this obvious 5v5 downgrade.

[@Sepheron44]

I agree that the PvE for what it is, is fine if you don't factor in what the PvE could be. As much fun as I have had with it and trying to complete Legendary mode in all missions, I just wish Blizzard didn't just do a simple buff to health pool / damage that the AI had and instead made it harder in different ways. As you go up the difficulty they could of done something like: Normal: Basic Units have HP only, Special Units limited armor pool, 50% less AI spawns, units only do basic attacks and melee, unit spawn types are fixed and damaging individual parts can be done easily. Hard: 10% more HP and all units have armor, 30% less AI spawns, special unit types can use special attacks and melee, some basic unit spawn type randomized, individual parts are harder to destroy. Less health packs spawn in the map Expert: Additional HP/Armor on enemy units, randomising health pools for each unit to spawn for that mission, all AI spawns active, more special unit types with increased damage, randomized basic unit spawn type and some specials spawns randomized, individual parts are protected and require additional effort or damage type to destroy quickly. Even less health packs spawn on the map. Map have limited areas that get sealed off so you cannot back track the whole map. Legendary: Additional HP/Armor on enemy units, randomising health pools for each unit to spawn for that mission, all AI spawns active, more special unit types that spawn locations are randomized completely (except story centric ones). Legendary difficulty increases AI intelligence where they start to perform unique attacks/actions not found in earlier difficulties. Certain limbs require additional effort to destroy protection (shield etc), no health packs spawn on the map. Each section area is completely closed off once moving on to prevent back tracking to kite/cheese enemy. It would make replayability a lot better and it increases difficulty by not just increasing hp/damage. Obviously needs tweaking, but the difficulty should come from more than just health pools and damage.

[@samhhhhh]

1:36:32 no role lock was a nightmare for casual players. You either play 6 dps knowing the comp was bad and you'll probably lose or settle to be the guy that steps up and plays what the team needs and never get to play what you want to because people are selfish. It was awful

[@vopcracker3193]

Role Lock was still inevitable since the then-new OWL was going to exploit the freedom the game provided either way; There would've been a standard comp. for competitive gameplay without it.

[@Real_MisterSir]

Game was better as 6v6 and Jaws making a point blank statement of "We berried that, the game is just better 5v5" who are "we"? Who berried that? You? Go look on the bnet forums, there are multiple daily posts for months about how 6v6 was better, and many descriptions as to why. You claiming "nuh uh" is not a valid argument nor a respectable mannerism of a debater in a podcast. 6v6 was better because it ensured a more consistent frontline - which may leave slightly less room for individual easy skill diff potential, but it also negates some of the hypervolatitlity from rng diff in OW2 that leads to horrible matchmaking experiences that people have been crying over for seasons now - and you can't deny this. If you do, you're living under a rock. People have been blaming matchmaking for so long now, far more than they ever did in OW1, and there is one core reason to it. 5v5 means that any time there is any form of diff, the likelihood that this diff scales exponentially, is much bigger when there is one less tank to establish a core frontline to soak the majority of resources and space. Instead we got the single gigabuffed tanks of OW2, where if any rng goes in favor of one tank over the other, it cascades onto everyone else because it's only one brick that has to crumble and the entire house of cards falls. It's more beneficial to just avoid that one tank most of the time, and you can get away with this because there is no secondary tank to uphold the balance of frontline fighting for space, and off tank to serve the space your team has already claimed.

[@marvynjeanbaptiste3206]

I never played OW1 but there’s a workshop mode that very closely mimics the playstyle. 6v6 is undoubtedly better than 5v5. Why? Because at least when I die as support or tank my ENTIRE team doesn’t die for 1 fucking person. This is my biggest gripe about 5v5. 1 support or tank death= teamwipe.

[@marvynjeanbaptiste3206]

The brick analogy is so damn true is insane. I would play open queue because it’s the gamemode where the majority of sellers go. (actually it’s genuinely crazy just how many throwers play this game for the sake of “fun”) if your team has 3 dps the outcome is very clear

[@wizawhat]

Those 6v6 games with a consistent frontline you're talking about, those only happened if you the tank player conformed your entire playstyle around your partner or vice versa, which wasn't as common as you 6v6 guys always make it out to be. Do you remember what it was like to play Rein with a Hog on your team? or a Ball just playing their own game in the backline? Or when you want to play an off tank because that's your main role... as well as the guy next to you, so you have to play Main Tank, a role so different it may as well be considered off-roleing. The problem with 2 tank balance is that synergies push them over the line of being too oppressive, but when played on their own or in an anti-synergy they are completely useless, which is a big problem when tanks dictate the playstyle of the lobby.

[@marvynjeanbaptiste3206]

@@wizawhat Idk about that. Maybe at the highest levels sure but I feel in low ranks you can pick any 2 tanks and win. This isn’t ow 1 anymore. There’s less healthpools and supports are op

[@ricardobph]

** There is a slight error in the thumbnail

[@jorrellrichardson3181]

Alot of us are playing but it's like having a nice car that you love then you take it to the shop and the mechanic makes it worse but it's still your car and you like it and he added a nice radio but Less cylinders, crank windows. But your still gonna drive it

[@bknelson1515]

I’d like to see larger teams in arcade and quick play modes maybe for an event of some sort. Like imagine 10v10 tdm overwatch on one of the flash point maps. I’m sure it wouldn’t have much competitive integrity but could see those kind of game modes really draw in more players.

[@Link2855]

I'm t500 for the first time and I literally don't know what to do now. Just found out that they don't even award the player icon anymore, not that was gonna even use it, but it would be nice to at least get something unique.

[@Hiroth86]

With everything that happended, they showed us that OW2 will never be more that what we got in 2016. I thought that I would play the invasion stuff, but I just watched Seagull and that was enough for me. The game has nothing going on and no reason to invest any time into it.

[@janvandenhooren9397]

I realy enjoy this podcast series but man these guests are blizzard chills. You dont have to defend the bad stuff that hard.

[@muckdriver]

On monetization/micros. Of course people miss getting something on level up and free skins. It was the most generous system despite using a horrible monetization model. People want rewards for showing their love of a passion. The man hours argument is dumb. With scale it technically is cheaper to produce than physical goods. A candy bar has the chemists and cooks making the formulas spending years, factory workers, this isn't even including the other logistics for the ingredients, legal of multiple countries, etc. Digital goods do not suffer many of these things or they're offset by different ways. This isn't to dimish a devs work because mental strain has proven to be as bad as physical strain for humans, but if blizz sells 10k battle passes that's 100k in revenue. He said an year which I assume is man hours not literal time (though time I can see being about 6 months due to feeback from players and such) a year in man hrs is like 2k hours I'm pretty sure the battle pass at half the price would cover that unless the game is underperforming that bad. Epic skins are modified base skins and seem to re-use assets for the most part unlike legendaries outside of variants and obvious goal post moves(kiriko's athletic, mei's christmas clothing). If their pipeline for epics outside of concepting and analytics analysis is taking more than a weeks worth man hours I think they have bigger issues because even in destiny 1 bungie was able to construct the design of an armor set on par with OW epics in variance within 1 day(getting the model and putting all the parts together not everything like animation and such) bungies tiger engine was never built for updates like destiny got back then either.

[@vVvDepredation]

Some of these comments wow. I think people’s nostalgia skews their opinions. People clamoring for 6v6 acting like the double shield choke point meta was an enjoyable time. You guys really want to go back to rein, orisa, bastion 2 cp? We can be mad about a lot of things but let’s not act like OW1 was a better shooter than OW1.1

[@beingbag2606]

I think at some point we're gonna look back on counter-swapping like we look back on pre-role lock.

[@ironman1458]

I already do atleast for tanks. Dps and supports arent affected as much by counter picks but I had to stop queueing flex cause tank games are just get counter swapped by 5 ppl all game while u are stuck with one trick mercys moiras and genjis

[@vopcracker3193]

Counter-swapping is a vestige from Overwatch 1, which this game is just a copy of that was given a glorified shop update, one less tank per team and some balance changes. The only reason CS still exists in the Tank role rests in the fundamental problem of Overwatch 2: It does nothing differently than the original while insisting upon itself with absolutely booted-up Supports and a DPS role that feels like the only place in the game left with any freedom to speak of. This was inevitable given Supports and DPS were the only viable characters to focus on to keep up the more individualistic style of gameplay from free-to-play and 5v5. Unfortunately, it also had the effect of cementing the Tank roles' demise by ensuring that most players would simply ignore them entirely for more effective heroes and plays. On top of _that_ ,any changes to the Tank class to counter this (mobility, range, better sustain or AOE) would quickly be propped up as a boogeyman for another GOATS/DS-Type meta ala Brigitte and either nerfed to high hell or rendered ineffective with the next Support/DPS release.

[@waffen98]

I truly believe this IP can't be saved, it's dead dead in terms of it’s perception and will likely never see any significant growth in playerbase and I sincerely hope for Xbox Game Studios sake they are smart enough to realize that and start moving people over to new projects once in charge that has the potential to explode in the mainstream eye, because this IP has been dragged through the mud for years by Blizzard's decisions, hell they could even revive the StarCraft FPS they cancelled to put more resources into OW2, I would love to play something like that.

[@davidangel3904]

Love this series svb!

[@dmbyaz41]

Agree with most of your takes but uncapping SR will make qp unbearable. The try hards who can't climb are already making qp lobbies sweatier than I've seen in a while... Maybe make that a separate game mode? Like un capped ladder vs normal ladder

[@bowesmj0]

I found these long form vids from SVBs hero challenges and I liked his Contant so I gave a few a listen and especially regarding season six and everything that's going on currently in the game I just feel these videos are kind of tone deaf. I've been playing since 2016 regularly but not frequently. I'll play three or four times a week but maybe only two or three games at a time. because my teenage nephews learned how to game on my account my MMR is all kinds of fucked and I'm permanently stuck in bronze (which I understand something people complain about unjustly all the time) but for people like me who are not full-time streamers, who don't have 8 to 10 hours a day to dedicate to a game to become the top 500 these complaints are valid. I was a big blizzard fan through World of Warcraft and even before that with just regular Warcraft. I had reservations about overwatch when it first came out because there was no story and why am I paying a full price for a half game. I stayed with it when all my friends dropped off because of the constant drought and going free to play and the battle pass incoming. I am the person who held out hope that we would get the stories that I expected from blizzard. I say this because watching these videos about the season six debate or anything when it talks about casual players, people who play once a month or with years in between, I can see disregarding those complaints but in everything I've heard or watched nobody brings up the vast majority of people who are in these metal ranks who don't play this game competitively who don't login to sweat it out in comp . Nobody talks about their perspective of buying a game and being told hey it's gonna be free and we're gonna give you free heroes and then being told hey we're gonna charge something but it's cool because we have all this really cool contact coming out that you've been asking for and then being told hey we're just gonna give you the same shit we've already been giving you but now we've got your money so that's cool. I understand this is a Company and I understand that businesses are in business to make money but again the best way I can think of describe this is just tone deaf on the half of Content creator's and the company and development team themselves is just tone deaf. The review bombing is a good thing because people like me (and for the record I did not review bomb) don't have an outlet to voice our concerns. I don't have a KZbin following where I can say this is my experience. I realize it's a difficult but they should really look at those reviews because a few of them I've read mimic my feelings perfectly. It's not all Koreans who can't play the game or ex girlfriends upset at new social media posts.

[@Psykroids]

Wow there was a lot of stupid in this one. Usually I'm one board with these podcasts, but its clear no one in this podcast had any education on business practice or customer relations. The first hour was self smoozing to a very disconnected degree where people can barely agree or understand the content creators.

[@kobejo439]

Easy to say the monetization isn’t bad when you get paid to play the game there’s a reason apex content creators have spent thousands on the game for virtual fidget toys.

[@kwehst]

it's disingenuous to argue against 6v6 by arguing against open queue with 4 tanks, cmon. no one's asking to go back that far. just actually try balancing 2 tanks instead of leaving the game in a bad state for 2-3 years. the balancing team was too slow and their answers were heroes like brig, who caused more problems than they solved. it's like eric andre shooting hannibal and asking "who would do this?" when blizzard themselves killed 6v6 by not supporting it, nerfing double shield, or anything really, so 2/2/2 left a bad impression everyone. there were many things they could've tried but didn't because they were wasting their time on PVE system we didn't even get.

[@levanoon9286]

Jaws miss somehow the point: matchmaking is also worse than before in ow1, mmr matchmaking is the thing everyone get and no one wanted and 6v6 would solve the rock paper scissors tank problem, because their were always be one tank who is good to play against another. Also you just relief so much pressure on the tank.

[@nemil2898]

All I hear is a billion-dollar company can't afford to pay for their developers. The ones who developed a game of a year award and allegedly sold 50 million copies. I hear you when you say that this is how other games are monetizing to keep up with development--makes sense--but don't sell me the fallacy that a billion-dollar company 'just can't afford to pay its employees'. They moved this direction to make MORE money, not the make the game better.

[@ljb5163]

Jake, there’s a more nuanced take on monetization that you didn’t address. Obviously companies exist to make money. The disconnect is when you make a good game, more people will want to support the game. There’s a cost and return to making games and the people at the top just don’t understand that and that’s why games aren’t lasting long anymore. They’re just money farms at this point when they could make more money long-term if they invested in making a better product.

[@lehocool7449]

Just be happy that all the games are f2p so if you don't want to spend money you don't have to. How is that bad

[@fuscello]

I dont personally think that jake missed any point, they are greedy because their entire purpose of existence is being the most greedy without people not buying their product. They are monetising skins, something that they can set the price to 100 bucks and only affect how much they earn as it affects 0 parts of the real gameplay, so we shouldn’t really care, I personally dont, they can go down to 5 dollars each and I still won’t buy the skins Ps what I am trying to say, is that you can’t kill a game with overpriced skins

[@paradox6919]

@@fuscello yea but the way the games are surviving are bc people are buying them. Overwatch probably wouldn’t get shut down bc it’s such a massive IP but if people weren’t buying into what they’re doing they would just keep doing what they can to get you into buying things.

[@ironman1458]

@@lehocool7449 Some people would rather pay to enjoy a good game than watch all the good games they already paid for slowly be turned into f2p money milking trash. Also, a lot of people in this discussion paid for overwatch even tho its f2p now so good luck with that argument against people who the game literally wasnt f2p for but instead paid for a game with certain promises that ended up being straight up lies Also literally nobody has said the problem is "I have to spend money in this f2p game" so you arent even saying anything in response to the criticisms people are making. Also, even when games cost money rather than being f2p, you never have to spend money you dont have to cause its voluntary consumerism as opposed to food water or housing. Its video games we're talking about here you quite literally never have to spend money on anything Also also, what if I wanted to play the pve? Since you said this game is f2p I can accomplish playing the game without spending money if I dont want to, right? And they definitely wouldnt bundle content for a F2P game with trash that nobody wants just to hike the price up even more, cause its a f2p game and you dont have to pay money to enjoy the content it releases, right? "How is that bad?" Nobody said that was bad because nobody was even talking about "we are forced to spend money in a f2p game" or whatever the fk that vegetable you call a brain thought his point was. The comment is about how they would make more money and people would be more inclined to play the game if they treated the playerbase well. Let me guess tho youre just gonna ignore all the points people are actually making and come back with another strawman about how you actually like your new corporate overlords as if thats an argument thats gonna change anyones mind

[@ReedoTV]

I would be interested in moving all the dps into support then having 1 tank and 4 supports

[@zc8673]

I think it would be better to make all supports dps then rebalance their support abilities accordingly.

[@vopcracker3193]

There is a clear distinction in this game being made between Supports as DPS-lite heroes with healing and Supports as game-changing utility canisters. With this, you could honestly put Symmetra (teleporter + turret), Sombra (hacking + translocator) and Echo with nerfed damage + some healing potential (via beam and potentially sticky bombs) to get most of her power towards Duplication. You would have a solid Support roster that would make sense gameplay-wise that you could fill out while focusing on rebuilding Tank instead.

[@ironman1458]

@@vopcracker3193 first time Ive read something that made me think the OW devs arent the least qualified people on earth to balance the game

[@vopcracker3193]

​@@ironman1458how exactly? The game literally doesn't give a rats ass anymore for role congruency and most Supports have a broader role in the game for it. In lieu of Activision giving enough of a shit about OW2 to fix the tank role (and they won't since it's been demonized to hell by GOATS/ DS metas) the least they could do is actually alter the fucking game to reflect the more individualistic playstyle. Supports as healers or playmakers with powerful abilities sounds like the logical step.

[@kobejo439]

1:54:22 actually sums up how the feel about casual players and their opinions

[@marvynjeanbaptiste3206]

I’d we can get 6v6 back I rather have the devs remove a DPS for another tank. DPS synergy is a joke either 2 snipers or 2 flyers.. wooow such synergy

[@drvongoosewing947]

Great video. I think what Jake says about improving the top500 experience to make everyone else strive for it is completely valid. However, the group then agreeing in essentially saying that metal rank players should keep the "safety net" of the card system rather than seeing our SR move feels unfair and actually a bit out of touch. The point was already made that in a ranked competitive system everyone strives for the top too so why should our experience be watered down? Give me the old "number goes up" "number goes down" system anyday.

[@fuscello]

To be honest it was custa just trying to make this current system work for AT LEAST something, but I agree that it should be completely reworked.

[@gathyx]

bring samito next episode please

[@kobejo439]

He just dropped a pro 6v6 video we need a great 6v6 debate now

[@Drwiggles69]

Fantastic episode!

[@TheNerd]

52:30 That is true, but people who play the ranked mode are already a small part of the community and "the high end" is a niche of a niche. As a public traded company, in which part of your product do you invest money in: The few thousand paying customers who maybe pay 1 of your employees or the millions of customers who pay the entire developement? Also: 02:07:00 I think roughly 90% of the community doesn't care because they don't play competitive

[@yenneferofvengerberg4936]

Is this a debate or a sales pitch?

[@marvynjeanbaptiste3206]

Having 2 dps is just asking too much mechanically when you’re low rank. They aren’t good and idc if you’re “learning” you can do that in qp. 2 tanks is so much easier to play as a casual because they don’t die as fast and can actually help the team instead of feeding

[@MefoWho]

imagine instead of removing a tank because of double shield meta, you reduce the shield's strenght instead. Even now if a sigma have a grudge against you, gl having fun as 70% of the dps roster

[@marvynjeanbaptiste3206]

@@MefoWho This is a good ides

[@itsmax9535]

the comments do not understand opinions and think yall are paid shills when you had multiple times were you were just bashing on the game for good reasons

[@meekon]

jake looking like superman and i can't unsee it

[@orls9068]

😂 I can't unsee it now

[@Dragonaut527]

Change debate to defense because thats all this was

[@hackfeatherstep9955]

Jake has such a small mindset it's like he thinks the world revolves around him and only his experience is the true experience that everyone has. Not everyone gets paid and exist to play this game so it makes sense that he'd defend the company so hard but it's just so pathetic to listen to him defend them this hard. His 'opinion' would make sense if there wasn't a pre-existing precedent of getting heroes as they come out and events being fun. Just because YOU didn't have that experience because YOU had hundreds of thousands of coins from playing this game 24/7 doesn't mean the average player did. I would drop 50, 80, 100 bucks every event on lootboxes now? I MAYBE buy the battlepass and that's it and I highly doubt i'm alone.

[@diegofernandez7989]

Now that ow2 is out they seem to forget who were the ones that kept the game alive during the times when we got no updates. Ow1 survived thanks to it’s hardcore competitive playerbase. I dont mean by that only gm and top 500. It survived thanks to everyone committed to the grind and to the competitive scene. In 2021 i bet most of the player base watched owl and played ranked. Now the competitive scene is in shambles. We dont know whats going to happen to owl and ranked is still awful with the card system/ confusing top 500. I played and watched overwatch since 2017, now i barely play. I know its hard for the devs but clearly the competitive scene isn’t their priority

[@kobejo439]

They tried to tac on a pve game to a game that has forever been pvp they’ve never known why the player base wants it was never going to work it’s like they hate the game they made. But I agree completely comp and hardcore grinders carried this game for 3 years through the content drought and they spit in our face by making the game not only less competitive but less enticing to play in general from shit as simple as displaying your rank to No in game progression out side of the bp

[@chandlerdutton6033]

You're even losing customization options on legendary skins so... Idk why y'all are jerking them off

[@spacecowboy7193]

At 1:05 vista says “I understand why this system is good for lower ranks.” But I assure you everyone hates it. I talked some friends into playing and we’ve been grinding from bronze to gold and they HATE the way the ranking system works. Just show everyone their SR. Let people turn it off if it’s really that scary. But the person we’re dreaming up who likes this does not exist.

[@ironman1458]

I've seen some people who like it surprisingly (I hate it too). I feel the issue is that most people who dont like it are actually here to play the game and not just buy skins, but they're inclined to listen to the minority of people who just log in to see if there is a new mercy skin to buy

[@kobejo439]

They’re completely out of touch with the casual player base and why wouldn’t they be they not only play 10x the normal player but they get paid to do so

[@thatsdanzatastic]

I find it crazy that they say that the counter swapping is not an issue

[@FennecUser-ky9vr]

The only way counter swapping has not been an issue is when one team composition is so much stronger than every other one on every map that no other characters can be chosen. Jake highlighted that balance within a role necessarily entails certain characters in a role having a favorable matchup against other characters in that role. You can't criticize Overwatch for having too much counter swapping, when counter swapping demonstrates the viability of more characters than a stagnant meta team composition. If you think that you should be able to play any character and do well in every game regardless of what everyone in the game is playing, I don't see how you can enjoy Overwatch. If counter swapping weren't a valuable part of the game, most characters would not be played.

[@ironman1458]

@@FennecUser-ky9vr "If you think that you should be able to play any character and do well in every game regardless of what everyone in the game is playing" Well, first of all, literally nobody said that. Like the comment you responded to said nothing even close to that. Its the devs who fucking said that is how they were trying to balance the game, and now youre saying their failure to achieve that means they are balancing the game well. Like you would have a point, if this idea didnt literally come out the devs mouth as a way to sell this game to people same way they did pve. if you play tank the game objectively has too much counter picking. 4 people on the enemy will counter swap whatever you play, while you are stuck playing with one trick mercy moira genji and hanzo. Its miserable and the game should not be balanced like that where you just dont get to play the game because the other team decided so. You cant even swap to counter them because there are multiple different heroes being used to counter you (you can counter 1-2 but not all 4) and even if you do swap, you just know as soon as they die they're all swapping to coutner you again. I truly dont understand how anybody could see that as engaging gameplay or a sign of balance lol. Its so skillless, it doesnt even matter how good you are, actually you get punished for being the only person doing well. You also say dumb shit like "counter swapping demonstrates the viability of more characters than a stagnant meta team composition" First of all, no, countering something doesnt mean you are a viable pick, it just means your character counters there's. Regardless of how strong any of these tanks are, Orisa will counter Rein, Rein will counter Sigma, and Sigma will counter Roadhog. It doesnt matter what the "stagnant meta team" is or how viable your character is AT ALL, it literally just means your character is strong against another. How is a character viable if the only time you can pick them and do well is when they have a certain character. And you stop doing well as soon as they swap to something else. Does that mean the character is viable, or you won a game of rock paper scissors because you died first and rage counter picked? I dont think counter swapping is an issue on support or dps but you straight up do not play tank if you really believe this trash you wrote

[@ironman1458]

@@FennecUser-ky9vr "If counter swapping weren't a valuable part of the game, most characters would not be played." So you wrote all that just to admit the game is terribly balanced and the only reason people play something is not because they are good at it, enjoy playing the character, not because the character is designed well or works well with your team,not because the character is well balanced or has a solid place in the game, but because it is op against another hero. Just go play rock paper scissors if thats the type of game you want to play. Overwatch should be about skill and playing well, not clicking on a certain heroes face when you get diffed and take the walk of shame back from spawn and just winning because your whole team counter picked the one person on their team actually playing well. Imgonna be honest, the only people who like that kind of gameplay are skillless trash who only get wins on the back of counter picking. You wrote all this but couldve just said "But how will I win if I have to be equally good as my opponents, and cant just rock paper scissors them until they stop caring cause they arent a mega virgin like me counter swapping every death"

[@ironman1458]

I also reject the fact that most characters wouldnt be played if not for counter picking. It depends more on what comp your team is playing or the map than what your enemies are playing what someone chooses to play. Just because Illari is meta right now doesnt mean Lucio stopped being the best support on most control point maps. There is literally no "stagnant meta team comp" unless you play on the same map every single game. The "meta team comp" on lijiang tower WILL NEVER be the same as the meta comp on circuit royale. Heroes would still be picked in their niches even if they werent being used to counterswap. I truly dont understand why you think a character being picked solely to counter another, and then being dropped as soon as that person counters you back is good balance or means more characters are viable and how that is preferable to characters having specific niches they are picked for like Widow on sniper maps or Lucio w brawl. All characters would have a place in the game, if the devs were competent and actually achieved their intention. But they didnt, so here we are listening to you act like their failure is still somehow beneficial for the game, even though everyone finds it infuriating (everyone who isnt a brainless noob wanting free wins cause theyre the only person in the lobby who cares enough to keep counterpicking over actually using a character they enjoy to play, AND A CHARACTER THAT ACTUALLY SYNERGIZES WITH THEIR TEAM COMP) Also, literally nobody said you should be able to play any character and do well in every game (except for the devs I guess but Im guessing thats not who you were addressing this comment towards). Strawman at best, arguing with the voices in your head at worst

[@ironman1458]

@@FennecUser-ky9vr Do you see how if the game revolves around counterpicks it becomes less about team synergy and coordination? This is the world you want to live in. Its literally a team game so makes no sense to say "You can't criticize Overwatch for having too much counter swapping, when counter swapping demonstrates the viability of more characters than a stagnant meta team composition." yes I can, I wanted to play a team shooter and choose a character that synergizes well with my team, not rock paper scissors the enemy tank into submission

[@LiveLuckyGaming]

Its getting harder and harder to listen to OW creators bury their heads in the sand and act like everything is just dandy.

[@CROSSFADE69]

We are one now!

[@levanoon9286]

47:50 talking about how hilarious it is complaining when you don’t got the money to play skins because that’s just cosmetic. I don’t know who you asked, but the real problem is buying heroes who r overpowered when they came out and you got no choice of buying battle pass aswell to keep up. That sucks

[@AlexTheHorrid]

1:23:33. Man jake I love the idea of everyone having an “impactful role” like DPS having some sort of healing or other supportive abilities to help out, it is a beautiful idea, but your run into that issue again where if those abilities exist they will be stacked, and that’s where OW1 become disliked. Sucks that OW is just in that type of position, but I say fuck it, let it be a tough game lol. Sometimes that’s apart of the strategy

[@solomonterrell3051]

This episode has been very unsatisfying to listen to. NgL

[@Bluemansonic]

1:51:44 i really need an explanation, i hardly ever see Winston survive or do high numbers in QP or Low Ranks, why is he suggesting to nerf the easiest to melt Tank? (No other form of Damage Mitigation besides bubble or running away)

[@benny2870]

playing winston and playing with a winston on your team is kinda hard bc you gotta do more things right so it kinda sucks in low elo, but if people know what they are doing it gets a lot of value

[@marvynjeanbaptiste3206]

I’m bronze and can see how winston is strong. Idk if he needs a nerf but he’s definitely not weak

[@jacobbrady173]

It's just when you get to a really high elo you have better coordination with your team which Winston requires he requires a lot of resources from supports and dps follow up but when he has that he is crazy good hope that helps

[@fuscello]

He has a lot of “burst” options with bubble and jump. He can quickly make decision with his jump and so creating really really good focus targets with his bubble, alone he doesn’t take advantage of what you may have just done, but if the team is following up, they can kill isolated enemies really easily

[@DGH286]

can't wait for the The Great Blizzard dev Defender debate

[@YSOSRIOUS84]

The only thing they didn't mention was the progression system being connected to the one tricking a hero now. You see the progress and you want to max it out. In a way they want you to one trick a hero. But, love the chat and SVB's content! Always enjoy it.

[@felipetrujillo6135]

There should be individual role discussions for tank, supp and dps with people that play their respective roles.

[@chandlerdutton6033]

They are about as bad as halo for charging for the color blue.... That the problem with Blizzard... They just want more money

[@Daveyjonesvi]

The points about comp make sense to want to get to the top. However I think most people know they will never be Gm top500 and so they want their experience to be better. I am a M1 rank and i don’t really have the biggest desire to rank up. It’s nice seeing my numbers go up but I play comp to get into games that are not like quick play. Yes some quick play games are sweaty but comp is a little different, and there aren’t leavers so you are made to work with what you got. That’s a point I think is missing from the top players pov. Most players know they have little chance to rank up and would rather have good games and slowly rank up and stabilize in a rank they are happy with.

[@laughingnotlooking]

Got to love Jake, his love for the game is infectious!! We Overwatch fans have been talking about how great the game is for 7 years now. Finally we've convinced those friends that would've never tried the game to switch over. We couldn't ask for more... actually yeah we could, fix and improve rank!! Revert back to OW1 ranked system with some tweaks!! Put a Pick and Ban system in the game!!! Holy sh...

[@jutpvp6223]

how about let us chose? if we wan´t perma updates or 5 win update if we wan´t play 6v6 or 5v5 impliment it "just" back and 3 modes for 6v6 : open q / mystery / role q and this as comp and normal modes

[@notreya]

as someone who plays the game, prefers 5v5, and likes the game in its current state (nerf orisa) - I think having your suggestion but without comp is probably the best compromise. it also just sounds like an easy win for the game because a majority of the people who consider "5v5" the _worst_ part of ow2 gameplay (we _all_ agree the prices are too much) would want to play the game. Starting out, the game's balance would need to however stay balanced for 5v5. the "professional scene" of this game is now fully established with everyone who is involved having put many 1000s of hours into the 5v5 version of the game. The way these people get into this is by playing on the current ladder. the game balance has in fact been changed significantly for 5v5 and then "tuned" by internal statistics and community feedback for over nearly a year now. It is incredibly hard to balance the game for 5v5 or 6v6 at one skill level, but balancing it for all skill levels is just so incredibly difficult to get right. The only way I see this changing is if they released a 6v6 "category" which then became more popular to the overall community (statistics and player feedback). but yeah I don't see a problem with just adding this mode without comp to start (queues are already too long for higher ranks), with the game balanced and comp added for whichever mode is most popular. Seems like a reasonable development compromise. :)

[@jutpvp6223]

@@notreya true i didn´t consider the balanking part but jea. prob most of the ppl hate that they can´t get a fre skin every 5 lvls (average cause rest areduplicates) and kling to the good old days maybe after a month ov both 5v5 and 6v6 in the game more ppl who liked 6v6 think 5v5 is better now or the other way around with so many new players. and also would find great if they would addt he 2cp maps back as a arcade mode. cause i loved the maps. i mean sure 2cp is def not made for comp especially now with only one tank who has to do every minute action perfectly to even considder to geting the point (most of the time) . but as an arcade mode why not.

[@IHJello]

ive never been this early. but you teased this coming and ive definitely have been waiting!