The Great October Debate feat. Flats, Samito & Freedo

[@SVBOW]

Please subscribe to the NEW GROUP UP! PODCAST CHANNEL if you want to keep up with future episodes. It will no longer be uploaded onto the main SVB Channel: kzbin.info/door/6sfR5a7isCIty2IQApu9MQ Podcast links below! The best way to support this content is directly through Patreon! www.patreon.com/svb Soundcloud: soundcloud.com/ow_svb/the-great-october-debate-feat-flats-samito-freedo Spotify: open.spotify.com/show/6sRWutKTc0gnWuguo62Vpa Apple Podcasts: podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/svbs-group-up/id1490256265

[@nidhishshivashankar4885]

I followed the new channel but I question if it’s a good idea to separate them, perhaps you should atleast post clips on the main channel so new people are aware that there is a podcast they can tune into - otherwise logistically it can end up being like growing 2 separate fan bases. Just my 2 cents 👍

[@noahdtdog9082]

This timing is godlike. Saw Samitos stream title and couldn’t wait for this to be uploaded. Thanks for all you do SVB, and it’s great to have the god squad back together again

[@doofy3564]

I really dig your hosting style and your attentiveness to whats going on in the conversation while not being overly serious and stuffy. Good stuff mate.

[@Pursuit_Gaming1]

These four together are always a blast to see what their commentary is and have unmatched energy. Literally the GOATs of Overwatch!

[@armstrong2052]

Definitely, they are very fair for the most part. And you know your listening to high level players.

[@IceOnSam]

Great content!

[@yesman2473]

Dont forget about wanted and ml 🔥

[@dzciple4931]

Emongg??, jay3, zbra??, sinnatra the ow goat

[@inmQT]

4 buffoons

[@mauskeleemans]

Any game mode without role queue turned into who has the most tanks = win

[@ReaveIdono]

@TreBsta Speaking the big facts

[@mathiaschristensen1194]

Good thing we dont balance for open queue then. It’s not a game mode that’s meant to have competitive integrity, but rather a mode for people who don’t wanna be restricted.

[@aaronolson6736]

This is why Mystery Heroes needs to go back in the Arcade.

[@devinaschenbrenner2683]

@TreBsta unless it's 2 am and your fucking around with friends.

[@gmanz5]

I remember Flats listening to someone flame a literal OWL Pro. Crazy times

[@MeiGunner]

46:30 I have said for years. " why does my Accuracy go down when shooting shields??? it should not go up, or down, it should stay the same "

[@rosenracht]

So glad to see my favourite game alive again!! Excited to try comp as by the time I got into it in OW1 all the players were jaded and didn't work together. OW2 seems to have a much more vibrant and cooperative community.

[@ErikBPG]

I had major anxiety over my sr in ow1 (3.8k) so I have really been enjoying this system.

[@secretlyaslug2325]

I think I'll finally be able to get into diamond with it once I have the time to grind the 7 wins lmao.

[@ducasse8473]

I think once you get into or past diamond you should have a toggle-able option to see more in depth information on how you're doing

[@soloqoph5805]

Literally dropping as I’m at work, Now I have something to watch instead of over analyzing avatar for the 1 millionth time

[@Bluemansonic]

Same

[@madnessman1520]

the pog cartoon or the blue person movie?

[@Bluemansonic]

@@madnessman1520 both are great

[@soloqoph5805]

@@madnessman1520 pog cartoon

[@madnessman1520]

@@soloqoph5805 huuge I've been doing that too lol

[@wildwarturkey8356]

Glad you are back and going strong SV

[@SolRise_yt]

I'm on a 13 hour long bus trip from Amstersam to Copenhagen, and I really needed something to listen to. Thank you!

[@Bluemansonic]

41:41 exactly, I was with a premade and they told me there was a little number under it all the time but until I got 4 inches away from my tv I saw the number that seemed to blend into it from 4 feet away

[@mrpetebojangles21]

This has been my favorite of the podcasts this far! I’ve also been in love with OW2 and M constantly wanting to get back in there

[@michaelc7418]

Tank role needs a lot of work, tanks need to have decent enough damage mitigation for their team in 1-2-2 format: -> Doomfist needs his Power Block reworked to be something that helps his team survive OR he needs moved back to damage role and re-balanced/reworked from his OW1 self. -> Junker Queen needs Commanding Shout to help her teammates more often; lower cooldown and/or longer ally duration. -> Orisa rework needs reverted (maybe keep Javelin Throw for Halt!), we need another ranged protector tank option. Reduce barrier HP and cooldown so you can reposition more. -> Roadhog needs that 1-3-2 experiment gas cloud for TaB to support his teammates; shift him away from being a 1-shot machine. -> Wrecking Ball needs his Adaptive Shield ability changed to extend outward some to block damage for his team. Nerf damage, base health, and/or roll speed some if needed. -> Zarya damage needs toned down and her protective capabilities need tuned up. All anti-heal in the game should be set to -50%, not -100%. Blizzard themselves said they want less hard counters.

[@BAIARJ]

I love this cast. Glad you guys are back together

[@frankmc8355]

I think in push, there should be a timer to cap the bot but once it's capped it should be yours and should move without anyone needing to touch it

[@ADUSN]

How would you avoid steamrolls and one team spawn camping the other?

[@frankmc8355]

@@ADUSN Part of the reason steamrolls and spawn-camping happen is because back-capping is not a threat--anyone who would back-cap would have to stay with the bot the whole time. If a hero could back-cap the bot and then leave it to join their team, they can use objective pressure to force the enemy team to stop spawn camping. It's similar to how Control works-- on most Control maps the team with control of the objective shouldn't fight on the objective, but they still need to position close to the objective or else the enemy team will walk onto the objective and take it.

[@genevievegodec7378]

You’re so great svb. Thank you for still making content. It is always top notch

[@Wulfereene]

So great to have you back doing this kind of content! This is super unique. 👍

[@TheNeoMc]

If I were the design team, I'd also bring her damage down *slightly* since 170 dmg/s at max charge is insane.

[@rickygonsalves905]

"Nerf Zarya" "Why?" " Shes too strong" "How so"? "Does too much damage" "Oh, how does she do damage"? " We keep shooting her bubble".

[@pho7020]

Love this group of 4 freedo brings amazing balance and counterpoints. Very interesting

[@christopher5577]

Guys. I think the community needs more “how to play” content. The new influx of players is great, but there are a lot of new player that don’t know how to play. Map knowledge, objective knowledge, ability usage.

[@secretlyaslug2325]

Freedo made a pretty broad video about that ealier. Wasn't super in depth but decent vid.

[@TheHandyDandyHandle]

I was really disappointed that they didn't redo the intro tutorial. With such an influx of new players as well as many continuing players that have learned this game over the course of years I was shocked they made zero effort to make a more informative tutorial that actually teaches the GAME not just the obvious shooter mechanics that 99.9 percent of players already know. They could've done it through pve and a mini story, really made you feel like this is overwatch 2 (emphasis on the TWO). You play as the different roles etc...... I'm going to work myself up, but it's really sad. Now everyone needs to learn on fucking KZbin shorts giving quick tips on how not to feed on genji or tank. Smh blizzard.

[@owemailowemail7598]

You guys gotta be less insulting to average players. Y’all talk about them especially flats like they’re vegetables

[@Real_MisterSir]

I think the biggest upside to the new ranked system isn't just that it helps players lose their fear of seeing their sr go down from losses. I think the upside is truly that it gives players something tangible to strive for every 7 wins. Before, where you had the literal rank number displayed each match, what did you realistically fight for short term? Rank up from 2600 to 2700? Congratulations you're still smack down middle of Plat and you get no reward or nothing of real value, plus you may easily derank again just from a few games anyways. Now, players have short term goals within each rank, something to strive for and fight for. They don't have to go 500 sr to actually achieve something, and that's perfect because one of the things humans by nature is really bad at, it is to strive for long-term value. People will have a much harder time sitting down and trying to grind for weeks just to hopefully get out of silver. They have to keep themselves engaged and equally invested in their grind every single day, and they're only potentially rewarded at the very end. Most people aren't built for such grind mindsets. But now, the incentive is always there. All you have to do, is win 7 games and you will have the potential to be rewarded for your efforts. 7 games, all it potentially takes. That's what players can relate to, especially in metal ranks where most people aren't hardcore grinders like Diamond-GM where you actively have to prove every match that you're better than 90% of the playerbase. It's a bit like being in T500, you have much shorter term goals where just a few matches can actually make a big difference in your rankings, even if the actual sr number is only going up by a few points per match. You can say "Oh with just a few games I might break T100, or another couple games maybe I will have a shot at T10". For the avg player, they can go 50 games and still be close to where they started out, they don't get that short term potential of being rewarded for their efforts.

[@gregwolf1]

On the point of 2CP If you attack on 2CP and roll them first and get full held on 2nd for 6 min it is no fun indeed, bzt push is similar. if the enemy pushes the bot to your spawn door almost, then you turn it back, but there are 6 min to go, its a loss... you have to win 8 teamfights in a row to turn that back so you just sit there pushing the bot between your spawn door and the map middle for 6 min before the enemy wins.

[@c0de685]

Please no map bans. It sounds like a good idea but there's one thing I learned about players is that they try to take the easiest route up the ladder. Rainbow six siege has map bans and it was a good idea but once it was introduced you had both teams just type in all chat "We got Kafe" and "We got Skyscraper" then both teams would ban the maps and just play like 3 maps. It turned the 10-12 maps into like 4 maps cause players would just ban the ones that required more effort or the ones that the players did not know well. It also ruined new maps cause everyone would just ban it cause no one took the time to go in a custom game and walk around and learn it. Emerald Plains was a new map released in siege and everyone would ban it cause it was new and players did not take the 30mins to run around the map and learn the sites, angles and set ups even though content creators and pros said it was a good map. I don't want to see players in Overwatch just go "We've got Junkertown" and "we got Circuit" and just play on Dorado and route 66. Or "We have Midtown" "We got paraiso" and only play on eichenwalde and kings row. Other than that always great seeing the 4 get together. Its always a blast seeing them and I'm always excited seeing another Group Up show in my feed. Edit: Changed R6 to has from had

[@plain-bagel]

Aww everyone looks so happy in the thumbnail now that OW is back!! ❤

[@SmokingDodo]

I love this 4 should honestly be meta. The chemistry is so great between y’all. Respectful but not afraid to disagree

[@zacharywoodard2097]

31:37 - as a bronze 5 player - reduced from Low Silver in OW1 - there was NOTHING more triggering than running a 7-4 win ratio, get "rank update" and NOT MOVE. I think Blizz could give the player the option to turn it on or off.

[@Tyrayde]

I'm only just getting into this episode but I want to mention that I'm a little fearful that monetization or the battle pass isn't mentioned in the timestamps. I will delete the comment if I finish the episode and they do talk about it, but I think that the people who don't want to pay should be represented a bit more because it feels so massively unrewarding to play and "progress" if you don't buy the battle pass. Or even if you do pay, but nothing is there of interest to your main(s)? I have faith, my friends say undeserved, that Team Four can come back but I hope that even more attention can be brought up on the matter so that change is more likely. Edit: They do talk about how Overwatch 2 is in early access, but I don't feel it's fair to treat it like it is until the marketing team treats it like that. They had a Release Date and I had to search to find where they said it was early access. New players and old returning casual ones don't know it's Early Access and aren't going to treat it like it is, so many of my friends have a poor taste in their mouths because of it's advertisement versus completion percentage.

[@DandyAndy23]

I know you guys NEED this game to succeed for your online presence to succeed. However, those rose tinted glasses are VERY well tinted.

[@Michael-pn4xu]

The only criticism I would have with ow is there is no way now to play rank with my friends. Now that I can not create alts/smurs (a good thing). I would like them to increase the range people can play with their friends maybe to 3 tier division from bronze-diamond.

[@secretlyaslug2325]

Dude even me a plat player, I cannot play with my console or new player friends in Unranked QP or Open Q. Matches are too difficult for them when I'm with them so I just have to let then play with each other.

[@nuclearsimian3281]

The best way to balance for lower ranks is to allow the players to have input, and have the balancing department analyze it, and just not have a huge, overwhelming advantage. Brig wasn't a problem for low metal ranks because nobody could hit Inspire reliably, especially when its most needed. Honestly, Master and above may just need to be balanced differently than Diamond and below.

[@PeaceMastah]

“It’s not the worst I’ve ever seen.” -Samito His ringing endorsement 😂

[@undyne6280]

Trust me. Sojourn is extremely oppressive in Gold too.

[@primalinea682]

As someone already mentioned, I like the thumbnail a lot!

[@333Abs]

I honestly think map pools is so they can see if any bugs arise and fix them without every map breaking at once

[@Real_MisterSir]

100% stacking should be allowed all the way to the T500 leaderboards. There is absolutely no reason people should be discouraged for playing as a team in a TEAM GAME. So what if some solo andy can't get into top 100 because it's exclusively filled with 5stackers. Fair, those people are so dedicated to the competitive integrity of the game that they schedule their rank games together and actually play the game at its peak potential the way it was designed and intended to be played from the very beginning. Good on them! They deserve the rank for the efforts they put into the game! If you want to be truly competitive, then queue with your friends or find a scrim team to queue with and strive for a spot in those top ranks! And if you're good enough to be in T100 as a strictly solo andy then great fucking job you're a legend who is holding their own vs organized queue stackers. Wear that badge proudly! One way Blizzard could go about this to make it more rewarding for both solos and stackers, would be to provide different rank rewards, such as if a player has held their rank playing solo for ex. 70% of their matches, then they will get a unique icon that shows "Rank 87 Solo" to pay respect to their skills as a solo player. Or something else of that nature to differentiate rankers who stack with 3+ players, and those who don't. Not like extra currency or xp or whatever, but something that can make players proud of their genuine accomplishments no matter if they're rank 200 or rank 2.

[@ADUSN]

Stacks SHOULD NOT be matched with solo's.

[@Real_MisterSir]

@@ADUSN Give one good reason. One. We already have a system in place, which is that stacks are put up against higher skill opponents to equal out the playing field. If stacks are good enough to climb to the top, then they've simply just proven they are more competitive than solo players and that is well deserved. It takes dedication to stack. A true competitive integrity based game would allow for the best leverage of skills and synergies to carry players to the top. Why the hell should the true Overwatch experience be locked away in competitive at the highest ranks? Makes zero sense.

[@ettelen4781]

I have seen people stand next to the barricade and not the robot in "push". People really don't understand this mode. I lost games before because team was more focused on getting kills than walking up to the robot once.

[@OldGoat-cw8he]

Sojourn is kinda good in metal ranks. If they can get even 35% rail gun accuracy it starts to be noticeable. Semi consistent head shots and it's insane even at low levels. I can admit that she puts out consistent damage, with big play potential. I appreciate it, but understand it's kinda unfair to be able to one shot and push easy damage.

[@MrZebanHai]

Her disruption orb also does like 210 damage and I constantly watch people in bronze and silver just stand in it until they die with literally zero awareness of what their health bar is at. I kind of wish Blizzard would buff its damage to like 800 for a week and then change it back so that people would develop an actual fear of that ability in lower ranks, lol.

[@OldGoat-cw8he]

@@MrZebanHai trapping the over commit or stragglers is how I love to use it. Because they will move right through it and set themselves up for easy headshots and that chip damage. Some matches it seems like I am an Overwatch god, then I turn around and just don't hit headshots. Playing her is humbling in some matches.

[@jiopa]

Problem with her i think is that she is the only character that one shots and doesnt have movement penalty. Not only that but she has minor cc and one of the better movement abilities on a dps.

[@OldGoat-cw8he]

@@jiopa soldier level consistent damage AND 1 shot potential. PLUS movement. The slide has saved me and turned fights multiple times already. Being able to get out of their over commit and punish simultaneously is rough.

[@blitz8425]

Freedo is on another planet with his Genji nerf takes. Somehow, Zarya being less prevalent outweighs the absurd nerfs to him? What? 1. That's just ignoring that as either Flats or Sam point out, Genji is one of the most easily counterable heroes in the game, and 2. While Zarya does counter Genji right now, good Genji players already know how to deal with her. Avoid her as much as possible. Those nerfs to him are absurd.

[@billykritikos7734]

I fully agree with the balancing aspect of this episode. Take CSGO for example. Low rank players will chose the P90 for their weapon because at that rank players are gonna miss the one tap and get run over by the P90. but in High level you cant pull that off because you'd get one shot if you run up to people with the P90. That is how characters in OW should be. the lower skill lower reward heroes are good for the low rank players because of the skill gap, just because they aren't being played at the top does not mean that they need buffs. As for Genji, the issue is the combos. Nano blade is a guaranteed won fight in every skill level of the game with the only way to stop it being a good sleep dart or the Genji just fucks up. It's on the devs to listen to the high level players to make the small tweeks (Sojourn Rail gun) but also on their judgement to make nerfs/Buffs that doesn't affect the majority of people (the Reaper example).

[@MD.20.20]

They're going the wrong way with trying to balance Zarya if those patch notes are correct. She has a pretty simple kit already and becomes less fun the longer you have to wait to do anything. They need to keep the cooldowns low so you can get into a proper flow state in a fight, while lowering her beams uptime. So I would suggest bubbles give her less charge, and increase charge decay and maybe her reload slightly. Maybe even rework her ammo usage to get consumed faster at higher charge but dmg absorbed by bubbles recharges her ammo.

[@ninthfriend3347]

They manage to reinvigorate the hero shooter feel which imo is when Overwatch plays at its best back in golden age. When I feel like I'm playing in 2016-2018 Overwatch, I'll be having a lot of fun. Also as someone who solo queues a lot, having that individual agency is huge for me and makes the experience way better than Overwatch.

[@deadhelix]

the talk about how you can’t balance about win rate and pick rate gives me ptsd to siege where the devs literally post graphs of characters win and pick rates and then nerfing that characters gun until it feels unusable and saying they are “balanced” after

[@GraphiteBlimp27]

THE WAY TO FIX GENJI: Make it like Hanzo where the damage buffs from nano don’t apply to blade. Everything else does. Either nerf the right click fire rate or spread back to original values. Genji needs to be bursty and have the damage. One of these changes would retain that but make it so he can’t spam as much or hit triple shurikens at range. The annoying thing I’ve noticed for my newbie friends in QP is he just runs at them and spams right click. Maybe revert damage to 28 if you want to go crazy, 27 is overkill. That would be a follow up change if he’s still to strong. If they want to change the ammo to 24 (for anti-spam), he should get a compensatory reload speed buff. I don’t think this DPS passive should exist, it’s basically for Genji and I hate my speed changing when I get an elimination, it is jarring. Idk if DPS would need one or what it should be, as a primarily DPS player I’m fine without one.

[@duel2803]

i just wanna see my rank. why’d they remove it

[@stolensentience]

What is the whole “give two ticks” thing freedo talks about around 1:31:29 ?

[@majones117]

So much better than OW1. I could not get into OW1 as much as I wanted to, just felt awful with 2 tanks. The competitive matchmaking does suck though. I'm getting matched against people way better than me and just pissing off my team because I struggle to contribute anything

[@cormo9058]

gotta say i love this thumbnail way more, super eye-catching!

[@SJ-vc6zn]

Posted just in time for me to listen to while opening my C-Store, thx!

[@thedofflin]

1:33:00 they should make Sojourn rail begin decaying almost immediately (like 0.5s) but maybe reduce the decay rate a little bit.

[@WizardKitty723]

What’s give two ticks?

[@secretlyaslug2325]

Samito and Freedo are so right about the balance rn. It's not about top down balance it's about maintaining a risk to reward. Sojourn feels so bad because she breaks that so hard by being super good for people who can't play her and being super oppressive by anyone who can. Sombra is just poorly designed and powerful lol.

[@Zyborgg]

100% agree with flats and samito. Nanoblade is the problem. Not genji in general.

[@gregorychauvin4869]

Loving these podcasts!

[@G005E-H0NK]

I feel like 2cp was peak overwatch ult control/execution and push is peak overwatch positioning and ult economy

[@palloae]

i HATE not seeing my SR and ranked progress, seriously. When i win my 7 and don’t move up or down it feels like garbage. When i kinda feel like i wanna stop playing, i feel like i can’t because i don’t know my progress yet. I think diamond and above there needs to be a sr number, more transparency. maybe masters and above

[@AnymMusic]

40:11 Oh it's different alright.

[@theredguy92]

Love these podcasts SVB!

[@Tayleron]

No SoundCloud link? Easier to listen to it without YT premium

[@Bluemansonic]

1:31:43 I've never even heard anybody say "give two ticks" in the past 6 years I've never once heard that phrase

[@Bluemansonic]

@@mikeymoxon ah..................grouping up at spawn after a lost fight...............still never heard that called "give two ticks" and I even tried giggling this "famous pro gamer phrase" and got zilch so idk

[@aaronolson6736]

Yeah I'm of the same mind of Samito on Zarya, if she was an enabler "Together we are strong" why did the make her selfish where you are at a dissadvantage bubbling an ally instead of yourself? Remember when they tested 1-3-2 and instead Projected Barrier could spread, why not do that with a limited spread or 2 charges and lower energy gain from ally bubbles? Zarya isn't a Juggernaut, she's a defender who gains damage from supporting her team.

[@KKJazz]

Amazing as always. Does every episode needs to have “great debate” in the title? It’d be nice to know what’s actually talked about in the title of the episode. Keep it up SVB

[@BrutusCV_]

1:23:20 mark of Samito saying Genji is the most counterable character, I disagree and say Pharah is. She has WAY too many characters that can just make her unplayable for the entirety of a match.

[@xTatsumix]

Silver/Gold player, this is way worse to have to lose 20 times before i even finish placements?

[@BigDaddyMIZU]

Love these great debates! Thanks svb!

[@AhJong0]

I played a decent amount of comp OW1 and I massively prefer the OW2 comp experience. My IRL friends would never join me for comp but now they will do. I don’t feel as bad after a loss and wins almost always feel sweet regardless. *Gold/Plat console player for reference*

[@Jim674the18]

2:23:00 I always am caught off by this comment Freedo makes. He did start saying it a bunch and I never saw anything official. Maybe it was made as a goal? But I never got the impression we would be choosing maps and he manages to say it as fact for many of these Group Up. I've always thought Blizzard said they don't want us vetoing things because of the effort it takes to make things and "perceptions" that things are bad.

[@Wulfereene]

I'm metal rank and i experience all those problems I would call balance problem, but rank related balance. I see a lot of genji with good mechanics and they just wreck the team and play scores like 20-1. Metal players don't have the mechanics to hit the jumpy thing. And often they outright don't try to adapt, change heroes, focus him down. There are solutions to many problems, but they are not known or not executed by metal rank. Anything that works well solo without communication. Currently that's genji, zarya and reaper. Reaper just moves forward on a solo target and self heals most damage he receives. There is no peel from the team, no reaction. Often it feels like people play without sound. They don't notice the teleport or the shotgun sound. The fact that the sound option to play a sound when a teammate does is off by default doesn't help. People have no idea when their team is dead and just ult or push. Other problems are simple combinations like pharah mercy or on ow1 bastion with a shield and healer. You don't need comms to execute that ok enough for metal rank. But to properly counter that, you need coordination, that doesn't exist. I guess you are right you need to balance from the top. But also you need ok balance for 90% of your players. And some things are just crazy powerful when done well against casual players. To some degree I wonder about matchmaking why i see good genji or widow in my games, while other players are completely bad. The range of skill you see around gold is massive.

[@MD.20.20]

They can't turn around, look up, hear anything, or react. Just spawn, walk forward to open ground, shoot first thing they see until dead, repeat.

[@myboy_]

first vid from you ive seen. you're great at moderating this discussion, good shit

[@GraphiteBlimp27]

Freedo’s point about balancing is so good, but here’s my addition: High skill floor heroes need to be, for the most part, better than ones with low skill floors. If they aren’t, there’s no reason in playing them. Big reason people left OW1 is, for instance, Moira. If you can’t aim at the middle ranks, Moira seems like a super easy, better DPS and it’s like why even bother playing the game if my mediocre gold soldier is going to get beaten by a bronze Moira? The best ideal for the game, IMO, is when OWL players are using heroes like Genji, Tracer, Widowmaker, Cassidy, Ana, Zen, Lucio, and I would say not only mechanical tanks like Doomfist or Junkerqueen but even Rein and Monkey are high skill for their brain power. Like you should not be able to be a Reaper main and be top 500, I’m sorry but it’s true. Those are either niche picks for top players (a stall or anti tank comp, etc), but not a mainstay hero that does it all. Trying to make cheesy heroes like: Symmetra, Torbjorn, Sombra, Mei, Moira, Brig, Orisa, into top level picks is just not the play. They need to have niches where they are useful for top players but not so versatile and strong that it both destroys low level play with the ease of actualizing their kit but also makes high levels sleeper watching mechanical gods playing heroes that require little of the player. This is the skill to reward curve Sam talks about.

[@6Churches]

Zarya is too much of a counter to Junker Queen being able to self-cleanse from bleeds with cooldowns that are far more available than the cd of Carnage - and she can instantly avoid JQ's Ultimate as well

[@Unequaledking]

Great insight. Thank you SVB and gang for continuing there great, great debates.

[@lordfunkatron9732]

I think they should add a second robot to push mode, dumb idea maybe but if they condensed the maps a little it could be like TF2 payload race

[@7h3fir3sid3]

I would like to say I really appreciate Freedo's interjection around an hour and 30 into the video about the metal ranks - before that, Samito talks about the genji nerfs and how Genji has good counterplay and sees less action than sojourn in scrims, but then Freedo theorizes that Sojourn just isn't a problem in the metal ranks, and that D.va is possibly a trap pick. I watch these videos because I want to see what good players think about the game, and I assume the commentators make the videos for the same reason, but its important to realize that the vast majority of players are metal rank and will always be metal rank, and therefore the game has to be balanced and feel good for this not-so-great playerbase. I'm sure a lot of high elo players see metal ranks struggling against something that's "not OP" because the metal rank players just don't understand the appropriate counterplay. But at some point, if the vast majority of players are physically incapable of understanding the counterplay, then the counterplay doesn't actually exist. This sounds really dumb because the counterplay is in fact obvious and its the metal rank player's fault for not learning it, but the majority of the playerbase is in fact that bad and the game needs to feel good for bad players, or else there's just no players and no money. As for Samito's "its impossible to balance for metal ranks", Riot actually does do a very good job of that in league of legends, and I see no reason why the same can't be done for overwatch. The only reason few content creators know how is because what content creator wants to spend hours studying bad overwatch? Some specific examples - in League of legends, late game wombo combo and late game splitpushing are stronger in low elo, so Riot simply does not create characters whose entire kit budget is designated to late game splitpushing or late game wombo combo - all champions must generate at least some value in some other way.

[@kevinkozlowski3060]

One thing i hate is when I'm on lucio (personal best support) & getting heal shamed! I play an aggro speed-boost heavy playstyle so i get flamed a lot! Shut up we're winning lol!

[@waynetec13]

On the topic of heroes being different at various ranks: ya'll are looking at how heroes perform at the absolute highest level, and you're making content geared toward the absolute top level, but the majority of the player base are metal ranks, and likely the majority of your viewers are metal ranks. It's literally a different game at our elo vs yours. In metal ranks, right now, Sombra and Moira are super oppressive. In your elo, sombra has to worry about your aim and mechanics. In my elo, sombra just has to remember to put down a teleporter before she goes in. Seriously. If the enemy team has a Sombra, if you're not a deathball, your supports never get back to the fight. I entirely understand that you want the game balanced from the top down, because, "if the high end leaves, the game dies," except that's not true. Metal ranks are the majority of players. We are the pocket book, not you. If they make metal ranks unfun to play in, the majority of players will quit playing, then the money dries up, THEN the game dies, because the devs aren't getting paid anymore. Blizzard doesn't care about your game experience. They don't care about anyone's experience, as long as they sell $10 BP's and $20 leggos. Their only concern is revenue. (the devs likely have skin in the game, but the decision makers are motivated by money. Period.)

[@ReaveIdono]

All of what you are saying can be fixed by getting good though. That is what SHOULD be the driver to play. And if you see Sombra is a menace then turn around yourself and help. If Moira is killing everyone focus her with whoever her target is. These are things within your power to solve in your games.

[@waynetec13]

@@ReaveIdono I agree, but "git gud" isn't an answer that makes metal ranks games more fun. Sure, *I* can rank up a little until my mechanical skill ceiling limits me, but the majority of the player base isn't just gonna git gud. They're just gonna find a different game to play, and if they're not playing, they're not spending. If they're not spending, devs aren't developing. If the devs aren't deving, the game goes away. Blizzard didn't spend years an millions of dollars to make a game Freedo and Flats want to play. They spent those resources to make money, and mid level players are who spends. I'm not complaining about my rank. I'm complaining about being mostly left out to dry when "top down" balance passes happen. At my elo, even a tiny tweak can turn reaper into an unkillable death god, but it can also dumpster a top tier gold pick. It's not about what I want or you want. It's about what makes Blizz more money. It's always all about the dollars.

[@ReaveIdono]

@@waynetec13 Overwatch is a competitive shooter. At least for now until the PVE stuff drops in full effect. So the desire to play should be to improve period. No one plays this and is ok with losing as you are agreeing with me on. So they are all trying to get wins. Which means they need to improve over whatever is destroying them. The real issue is that people are too stubborn to see they are the problem. And it's clearly a character problem.

[@waynetec13]

@@ReaveIdono Overwatch is a commercial product that's advertised to competitive shooter fans, but the game design is obviously built to draw in more casual players as well, and based purely on a bell curve, the majority of players will land squarely in gold, and will have a ceiling that's lower than professional. Everyone I see talking about how Overwatch should be purely try hard and the overwhelming majority of people need to just suck it up and get better all have a number on their rank, as in top 500. These people are seeing the game from the viewpoint of someone who wants it to compete with the likes of CSGO and Valorant, but those are niche games that appeal to a niche of gamer Overwatch isn't aimed at. If 80% of the player base, and therefore the money to be spent on skins and boosts, then Blizzard, being a capitalist company with the pure 100% sole goal of returning value to shareholders, needs to cater to the audience that spends the most. Since you can't buy power like in mobile games, that means the whales aren't going to be at the top of the pile. They're more likely to be the gold player who just wants to play Doomfist, even if he sucks, and wants all the skins. By making the blanket statement that "it's a competitive shooter, and if you're not a try hard, you should just accept that the company doesn't care about you or your experience" you're discounting the HUGE pile of people who play for entirely different reasons than to have a number by their name. If those players feel shunned, they'll leave, and remove all possibility of spending money. Without people spending money, you'll end up with a game who's servers will go offline. Activision isn't going to keep paying for game development in a dead game. I'm not saying they should ignore the top tiers, but ignoring everything BUT the top tiers is a recipe for a dead game. They have to cater to the 80%, not just the 5-10% at the top.

[@ReaveIdono]

@@waynetec13 No its not a recipe for a bad game. If bad DPS players can't stop something as easy as a Moira attacking them. Then no amount of balancing will fix their aim. Which is why balancing for bad players is a dumb idea. Btw I'm not top 500...

[@andya190]

Love your stuff, man.

[@RuiMMSousa]

What is Freedo talking about on 1:31:21 ?

[@highheart4300]

I seriously dislike needing to play 14-20 games just to rank on each role. I play competitive simply to place and slowly get gold weapons. I don't really enjoy it. The 20 games I needed to play in order to have all of my ranks. Now even if I win every single game (the dream) I'd still have to play 35 games. Honestly, it's made me give up on competitive completely.

[@MaskyFalle]

About Flats’ rant on the tutorial… I think it’s actually fine, HEAR ME OUT! What a lot of people don’t realize is that the point isn’t to teach you to be good at the game. It’s to teach you *how to play* the game in the first place for people who have never touched a shooter before. Some new players don’t want to feel like they need to sit through an overwhelming knowledge-dump of info and strategies just to play a video game. They just need to know how to shoot the guy, how to use abilities, and how to play the objective. Getting better can come from experience or mentoring from peers. That being said, I do believe there should also be resources within the game to teach high level strats to players who don’t want to look for info outside the game. Something like an optional Mission Mode that gives Battle Pass EXP or Overwatch Coins as incentive might be a good teaching tool.

[@Troy-gk8pr]

I'm low metal and currently tank and dps are fun right now but support feels like a chore and the Que's are showing it.

[@cyanmarker8386]

For me, the most frustrating part of Genji's kit is his deflect. It's just annoying for him to dive on me to just throw out a defensive cooldown and it stops the fight for 2 seconds. I would keep his shurikens at the same ammo and damage but nerf the duration of his deflect

[@Nortio]

I hate listening to my friend who are plat-silver cry and complain about junkrat and sym and bastion being OP and cheesy easy win strats while I'm a Diamond/master player and I know how aweful those characters are and how to beat them but when I play Qp with them and we get rolled I have to hold my tongue bc they don't understand how to actually play the fucking game at all. Yet they claim they do and they have all these ideas about how the game works and what strats to use and how to do this or that or the other thing and the whole time I'm rolling my eyes like "wrong, wrong, no, that's wrong, youre wrong" in my head.

[@MaasdamMike]

Yes! Been waiting for a new group up from u guys. Keep it coming! ❤

[@eggur0ll289]

Commenting for the algorithm, keep up the great content!

[@vampirelogan]

I personally hate the hidden ranking system because I don't have a way to check why I didn't rank up this time or have any info to help see improvement to my win rate. I started a spreadsheet to keep track of my wins and losses but I shouldn't have to do that. The info should still be available to players who care about it.

[@ADUSN]

Focus on improving and the things you can control. You shouldn't be micro managing your comp games, that was the point.

[@vampirelogan]

@@ADUSN I was already doing that, thanks but I still want to see more information because I like that kind of thing and I don't like having it taken away from me. Vib

[@Hiroth86]

I wish they would add playstyles to your player card. I like to dive, rush and brawl, but if I could see I'm in a group with double shield and poke enjoyers I would know that I should play different.

[@shevek5934]

As an Ana OTP honestly I wouldn't mind if nano blade was nerfed. It's really boring nanoing the same character every fight game in and game out.

[@mkwsoxfan]

The discussion of map pools shouldn't have been this blatant of an offense by blizzard. They conveniently didn't fix "problem" OW1 maps and now the pool is generically flooded with NEW maps. My hot take is every map (that doesn't have bugs or game breaks) should be active in the pool, including time of day changes, holiday variants,etc. My hotter take is they should have tried 5v5 2cp before scrapping all of those maps. If it has to result in a CSGO style system where you can disable maps/modes you don't like we can try that as a test. Personally I hate most king of the hill maps, illios specifically because it is a collection of three flukey maps. One where your team has to do a sniper face off (ruins) super lame interaction if you hate snipers or aren't dps, one where your team all goes big brain boop characters and the game plays like quick play/deathmatch (well), and a third where your team is too busy being angry at the other roles in the first two maps. Personally I might disable KOTH for those reasons alone. This is their time to test what sticks bring back 2cp and see player feedback I actually think 80% of players don't mind 2cp and 15% complain because they hear pros complain and think it applies to them, and the remaining 5% actually suffer the problems with the mode

[@paper2946]

I wonder how push would play out if the bot had an alternate path you could have it take. Not sure what sorts of conditions would work best for that.

[@secretlyaslug2325]

I think the only reason that the map pool frustrates me is stuff like Lijang or Gibraltar which have such specific strategy to them that you're not even really allowed to enjoy the new design allowing more freedom of hero choice. Like I've just gotta pick Sym or Dive DPS. And it feels like I get those maps multiple times a day which sucks.

[@jnemuranai277]

i’d love to see something like a 5 stack queue or an in game tournament system where you can get a rating similar to sr but as a team. being able to group as more than two in gm was just op and messed up queue times, but those issues wouldn’t carry over to a tournament queue as everyone would be stacking. blizzard could just run tournaments on weekends so that the players are focused on that game mode and everyone’s brackets can be filled. this could tie into guilds really well when/if that comes out. i might not have explained this perfectly but i hope y’all can get the main idea

[@Nortio]

The thing about nerfing nano blade is that it would have to be consistent across all nanoed characters. You cant stop blade from being able to be nanoed and it make sense unless you stop every ult from being nanoed which would destroy ana as a character unless they gave her other buffs. I guess the idea being that ults like visor, blade, barrage, whole hog, etc can't be nanoed but then buff nano to give back its speed bonus like it used to have and maybe buff 1 or 2 other things about ana

[@kfed9834]

While I generally agree with Freedo, I'd say that Sojourn is definitely a problem in plat at the least, it's definitely not just a master's gm thing. Even in my plat lobbies half the kill feed is Sojourn railguns. As Samito also said right after that, having the 8 second decay, she basically starts fights with a oneshot ready just by barely shooting a single shield after winning a team fight, and having that mobility on a "better" widow and soldier, it's just disgusting. Sojourn is definitely one of the most annoying characters to see in my games though, the fact that she's not being looked at is ridiculously idiotic.

[@triumphytv]

good talk guys as a long time Overwatch Player it feel like everyone rank is up in the Air

[@ansichart]

The pop off moments in ocerwatch are great for sure, but i wouldn’t say it’s unique to overwatch… popping off in Apex Legends also hits the same