The Hidden Secrets of Dark Souls - The Creation Myth

[@Whitelight]

Been writing something similar on Dark Souls myself, it's invigorating to see you dig so deep in ways I never could've expected. Keep it going man.

[@maxderrat]

I look forward to seeing it. :O

[@brentloy131]

Two Titans coming together...

[@salahad-din9168]

collab when?

[@robred123s]

Dark Souls video when?

[@RedYellowBird6889]

It's the man himself

[@jkb2494]

"Lloyd means Grey, Gwyn means white," suddenly I have Gandalf flashbacks.

[@sniper712]

That’s a good flashback lol

[@AreWeLearningYet77]

Does this imply Manus is black?

[@sniper712]

@@AreWeLearningYet77 who knows he’s in abyss all the time it’s hard to tell

[@OnryoSan]

Way of White

[@manolomartinez5033]

@@AreWeLearningYet77 Manus means Hand

[@ToddHimself]

The Hercules reference got me reeling.

[@bignerd7683]

Dude the hermes shit with mercury shook me last video

[@sirius6738]

Interesting to see you linking the dark soul with water, it made me think about the flooding of New Londo, but more importantly, the Deep from Dark Souls 3, which is, like the Abyss, often associated with water. I really hope you will talk about that too

[@eliasbonafe9236]

Dark souls 3 is basically for the most part about taoism. That is an example

[@kodybuffettwilson]

I absolutely adore analysis related to mythology, it's really quite fascinating. The Zeus bit caught me off guard!

[@malsummers6515]

Read up or watch Joseph Campbell's "The Power Of Myth" if you like mythology analysis, he dedicated his entire life to it and it's very interesting :)

[@sheolreaver4565]

I’m not even a gamer and I find this stuff fascinating.

[@XXLSkinnyMcGee]

okay

[@zerothehero123]

The bloodborne lore is evenly fascinating!

[@kyleanderson7473]

Theres better lore videos than this look up the full dark souls lore ashen hollow has good lore videos and so does the viatya vidia i think thats his name lol idk

[@sheolreaver4565]

@@user-zp8kj2cl9g That’s good to know. I’m not so much interested in the lore of the video games themselves, but in how they have been influenced by real-world religion and mythology. It’s good to know that Max is so insightful in that regard.

[@kyleanderson7473]

@@user-zp8kj2cl9g vatiya vidia is by far superior to every lore or secret in dark souls he doesnt grab on thins thst simply arent there and understands that the devs leave so many things up to speculatiom

[@TheSaival]

At fromsoft a few years ago: -Hey Miyazaki-san, Lloyd-san put himself in one of the item descriptions, we should remove it... *Miyazaki hits a fat bong* -Naaaah, just let him keep it, it doesnt matter, its not like fans will be making some crazy lore theories few years later...

[@cloudbloom]

I've always felt that Demon's Souls took place before dark souls, and the colorless deep fog from Demon's is the fog in the beginning of dark souls. So much time has passed that the legends of that time believe there was nothing before the archtrees and fog

[@skhighglitch4217]

And with Bloodborne, Demon’s Souls ends with the Player character leaving the Maiden in Black alive. Or that’s how a few of us imagine it.

[@helelyeshua2982]

@@skhighglitch4217 Bloodborne was supposed to be Demon's Souls 2, it was codenamed Project Beast iirc

[@sqwadleader1193]

Agreed- this has always been my favorite reading into the origins of Dark Souls/Bloodborne's respective worlds. Certainly has some little continuity holes, but it holds up particularly well with the series' cyclical eras.

[@starfthegreat]

@@helelyeshua2982 Father Gascoigne even said Umbassa in the demo version of BB

[@helelyeshua2982]

@Jack Taylor 045 I read about that as well! I loved the Chalice Dungeons as they were, but that would have been an excellent way to link the two games up much like Anor Londo in the Dark Souls games.

[@pkeod]

When I was a kid I made up mythologies all on my own without reference of any other works (I was a dumb unread kid at the time, but I also have always been blessed/plagued by vivid dreams). I showed them to a teacher once, who was an expert on world mythology, and she told me where everything was referenced from, based on. Some ideas are truly primal, they are within us to echo out into the world over and over again. They existed thousands of years ago, and if everything is forgotten but humanity perseveres, they will echo out again in some kid with too many dreams.

[@musikmaximizer]

Dear makers of epic video games, give this man a job

[@maxderrat]

!praise this comment

[@skhighglitch4217]

!praise

[@monkeybusiness673]

!praise Also: \[T]/

[@raymondzellar5523]

It's awesome to have a new voice and perspective on the souls lore. KZbin channels like vaatividia, the Ashen hollow, bob the hollow, fighter pl, sunlightblade, smoughtown, are 100% why I love these games so much. I would never have put the time into the games that they deserved without this type of content.

[@raymondzellar5523]

@Zach Higgins awesome videos too

[@TheAtomkilla]

Fantastic video, Max, as usual. However, I'd like to add/mention/speculate upon a few more things. A bit of a long read ahead. Regarding the part where you mention a god fighting an ophidian being using thunderbolts, I'd like to point that Thor, thunder god, fights against Jörmungandr, the World Serpent, during Ragnarök. But given the ubiquitous nature of that myth in popular culture, I imagine you quite possibly purposefully avoided mentioning it in order to focus on some lesser known myths (which I appreciate). On to Dark Souls proper, I'd like to focus on something from Dark Souls 3 that directly ties to something you spoke about in this video. Namely, the part about Serpents being an originating form of Dragons, and that the world began from formless void, the Abyss. In DS3, which essentially depicts the final end of the world, Abyss is present far more than ever before. It is shown quite a lot in the Ringed City DLC, but probably more importantly, it is shown in base game through the enemies known as Pus of Man - those weak, aimless Undead which suddenly erupt into serpentine monsters which are seemingly made out of Abyss. Iudex Gundyr is also possessed by one of these things, and it must be mentioned that he has a connection to the Abyss - through Champion Gundyr, who seems to reside in the lightless place that is Untended Graves and Firelink Shrine without light. Long story short, Serpents burst forth from Undead. Pus of Man. Now let's look at other common Undead in High Wall of Lothric - those Undead which have seemingly turned into trees. If you take a careful look, you see a lot of this things everywhere where there's a large concentration of low-level Undead enemies, such as at the said location. Frail, desiccated forms of Undead twisting into branchlike things which remind (me at least) of tree saplings, but in various stages of growth, indicating, well, growth. Bonus: Giants from DS2 (one is present in Firelink Shrine in DS3 also) turn into trees. So we have trees assuming form from Man (and Giant, obviously). And lastly - the Dragon. Archdragon Peak. In here we see many members of Dragon Covenant assuming form of, well, dragons. In DS1 the Ancient Dragon deep down in the Ash Lake is connected to this Covenant, and it looks like a proper Everlasting Dragon (and, quite obviously, you as a character can assume a proto-dragon form through this covenant). (There are also plenty of Dragon-Man warriors in DS2 residing near an Ancient Dragon (although, if my memory serves me well, it turns out DS2's Ancient Dragon is kinda fake). So, in the end Dragon also comes from Man. And lastly, we must mention the fact that Undead roam the land as never before. Humans finally assume their *true* form - that of Hollows, much like those seen in the DS1's intro cinematic. Now, if we look at DS3's The End of Fire possible ending, the world is finally enshrouded in dark. But, as we hear from the Firekeeper, it's obviously not the end. Even in the dark, we still hear her voice. In that darkness, everything from before still exist (for the purpose of the theory, we shall assume that). The Hollows still roam the land. The Dragons (created from Man) still sit motionlessly, everlastingly. The Trees have already taken root, and are slowly growing. And the abyssal Serpents, the Pus of Man, those who could become Dragons but never did, still writhe about. What I'm describing here is basically the first stage of a new world, of a new cycle beginning with a new grey. Another Age of Ancients. Archtrees, Everlasting Dragons, new Serpents of the primordial void (Abyss) and new Men/Hollows. And, to add another detail, the grey in the intro cinematic of DS1 always reminded me of the dull grayness we see just before the sun rises during a foggy day (incidentally, I had one such this very morning). So that Grey could be a product of the Dark from after the world ended and the Light which hasn't yet come, but is about to. Age of Ancients could be this nigh-eternal stage of liminality between the Darkness and Light, before Disparity finally and abruptly come, ushering forth the separation of Elements. The components are all there, so to speak. The stage has already been set and the proverbial serpent has bitten it's tail once more. This is presumably the great cycle of Light and Dark which Gwyn sought to stop, disrupting the natural order of things. Bonus detail: I've always wondered what the Cathedral of the Deep's, well, "Deep" (the dark watery body next to it) reminded me of... It was Ash Lake. I didn't make the connection until I watched these videos of yours. I'm not saying there's an actual connection, but there's a similarity, at least visual. Dark body of water. Anyway, it's just a small hypothesis on my part, hope you liked it. Looking forward to your next video.

[@gstvntt]

Nice points dude, indeed the natural state of men is to be hollow, ive always thought the age of dark would be bad because of "dark" you know, but it simply means the age of Men to thrive Live and die. For gwyn its very bad cause it means the end of his age, i think that by trying to go against the natural order of the world is what triggered the undead curse , which is a time bomb for his age only extended by great sacrifices

[@ahmed4397]

.

[@TheAtomkilla]

​@@gstvntt Thanks. And yes, I agree. I believe that Gwyn committed the First Sin (as it is referred in DS2) of essentially tricking and shackling humanity out of their true form - presumably to use them as servants, the "lesser race" when compared to gods. Interestingly, there's a statue in the Ringed City DLC which basically depicts just that - a pygmy kneeling in front of Gwyn. I believe that Pygmy Kings of Ringed City were accomplices in this scheme. By betraying most of humanity to Gwyn, they got their eternal Ringed City and immense power, and as a guarantee they got Filianore, Gwyn's precious daughter, so that the pact may last for as long as Gwyn needed it - presumably, forever - hence the prolonged Age of Fire. But as we already know, things didn't really go the way it was planned... At any rate, I believe that the Darksign is essentially nature showing its true form - the darkness bursting forward from Man, slowly turning them into their true form of Hollow.

[@TheAtomkilla]

@@es-rh8oo If I am not wrong, both Headless Bloodletting Beast and Guardian Ape harbor centipedes/worms within their bodies - or as they are referred to in Bloodborne, vermin in the blood (or something similar). If I recall correctly, these "vermin" are symbolic of filth, decay and corruption in Shinto, which makes a lot of sense given the nature of these bosses.

[@Writh811]

Thanks for posting this video. I have of late been spending a lot of thought on the real world parallels to the Myth's of Dark Souls against the real world religions/myths. I noticed a lot of similar narrative beats all over the place as you have. One interesting beat is that Gwyn's children seem to follow the beat of the Japanese God Izanami. Izanami's 3 greatest children were Amaterasu goddess of the Sun, Tsukiyomi god of the moon, and Susanoo god of the storm. Susanoo was a violent and volatile god who would be kicked of heaven for his foolishness. Another point matching Gwyn's family plotline to Izanami is also the Leech child, which was one of Izanami and his wife's children that they abandoned. If one accepts Priscilla as one of Gywn's children, then her life hunt powers would make her the leech child. Of course by DS3 we have Filianor who I learned in developement went by the codename "Queen Anor Londo" or something like that. So if she was originally intended to be the Queen before some kinda last minute change then again we have a supreme god trapping wife in a place he considers defiled. In DarkSouls 2 signs of Gywn's family start to lean on Egyptian imagery. In the Cathedral is a statue that looks like Gwyn but has an Eagle's head, putting him in line with Ra. We also learn of a kingdom of warriors and lion people who worshipped a war God Faraam. There is a story of Ra traveling to the under world and being attacked by Apophis. Ra's son, Anhur the god of war leaps to his fathers aid and battled the serpent. The war god was often depicted as strong man, with a lion's head. (I believe the god Faraam mention in DS2 is Gywn's first born son)

[@SamuraiJM]

Just found this video series and wanted to say it is incredible. The idea that Allfather Lloyd (Grey) represents the Grey world/dragons before the beginning of time, and Gwyn (White) representing the light side of disparity (with the Pygmy and its Dark Soul representing Dark) is just such a cool concept. Thank you for putting all of this out there!

[@Codric]

It's fantastic to see Souls approached from a classical perspective. Hawkshaw made a great video a few years ago that clarifies errors in translation from the original Japanese, and it may add more context in your research. Excited to watch the rest of these!

[@sundaramchaudhary]

If "a" is compared with "b" and "a" came out as imperfect, the more logical thing is that "b" exist before "a". Unless it should be written "b" is improved version of "a". For example if snake were before dragons, it should be written as "dragons are improved form of snake" not "snakes are imperfect dragons" also we see imperfection in dragons as sheath. So dragons are not evolved snaked

[@TheJustAprofile]

Demon Souls seems to be the foundational rock upon which Dark Souls foundationals sproute. Giant Trees tied to the old being. A massive flood/fog that wipes out the rest of men. A process where all the souls basically absorbed into the fog. And likely coalesce. While the link between Demon Souls and Dark Souls is 'uncanon' the similarities between the collapse of the old world and it's end, and continuation in Dark Souls are hard to ignore. The good ending of Demon Souls has the Leviathan lulled to sleep out to the sea. While the bad ending invokes the proverbial flood to swallow the whole earth. it's just odd this is completely separated from the creation myth of dark souls, even when it maybe at odds with the dark/light cycles that Dark Souls espouses to. Albeit, perhaps not truly at odds, as fog being an intermediary transitionary order does make some sense, rather than total disunity of dark.

[@DForce-fn7xm]

Look into kings field. That’s the grand daddy to the souls born series.

[@DeCoR18]

They've never said the connection between demons souls and dark souls isn't cannon. I think it is fairly safe to assume that it is cannon in all but name.

[@user-wq1dt7li2x]

Disclaimer: non expert on Chinese alchemy and filthy dark souls casual. So here's my issue; You rely really heavily on Western alchemy in your analysis, but FromSoftware is a Japanese company and would likely draw more from the Eastern tradition. Here's the thing; the Eastern alchemical tradition, despite having a lot in common with it's Western counterpart, remains highly distinct. Chinese alchemy generally has five elements, not four. These five being Earth, fire water, wood, and metal. Additionally, the prima materia of the Eastern tradition is not equated with the dark/abyss. Instead, the Supreme Ultimate and Intermediate contains and separates into Yin and Yang, light and dark, life and death which themselves give rise to the five elements. In general terms the Dark Souls creation myth more closely agrees with the Eastern Supreme Intermediate than the western prima materia. The Ultimate (the fog, grey, unformed world) experiences a separation into Yin and Yang (the fire brings disparity to the fog and creates light/dark life/death). This follows the mythos and cosmology of Dark Souls better, especially considering some of the additions made by the third game. Particularly the part about Humanity/dark soul stuff sinking into the depths of the world to form it's foundations as the abyss. I recommend looking up some stuff like the Diagram of Supreme Polarity to get a better feel for more on alchemy outside the west, especially when Western alchemy is not as culturally relevant to the game creators. One last note: I don't think the serpents/imperfect dragons as the precursors to the ancient dragons lines up well with the themes of dark souls. The world of Dark Souls follows a very Tolkien-esque theme. This world is winding down; the age of fire is ending; greater powers are fading; and more is being lost by the day. I think the serpents as a devolution of the dragons better aligns with the themes and logic of dark souls. Perhaps as dragons that were born/created/hatched as the age of fog was ending which became reflections of this world they were born into. This would would work better with the Japanese conception of dragons as well, as Eastern dragons tend to be though of as divine beings with a more perfect inner balance of the Daoist Yin and Yang. Imperfect here referring to the serpents inability to strike an ideal balance between the light and dark that their grey forebears did. Mortal/earthly/imperfect (and notably unscaled) because they cannot achieve the Daoist ideal inner harmony that was lost with the birth of disparity, and thus could not be true dragons.

[@Proctor_Conley]

You articulated yourself very well & I'm super jealous! Bravo! You're quite right, I think, Jack!

[@maxderrat]

Hey Jack. I think you made two really cool points here. First, you have a good point about the importance that eastern alchemy might have on the game. This concept of the "supreme ultimate" and "supreme intermediate" are foreign to me and I would like to learn more about them. If you can point me to a book/article or two, I'd love to delve into them. Having said that, while Eastern alchemy almost definitely has its part to play in the mythos of Dark Souls, I don't think Western alchemy is completely out of the question. As I mentioned in the video, Robert Fludd's work helped influence the mythos of Shadow of the Colossus. Robert Fludd was a western alchemist whose work influenced a Japanese game studio named Team Ico (who then produced SOTC). It is not uncommon for Western religion and philosophy to influence Japanese games. Games like NieR: Automata, Persona and Metal Gear are perfect examples of this. Second, I think your perspective on the dragons as bearing a perfect inner balance is a brilliant perception. If they were around at the beginning of the world, before the separation, the everlasting dragons maybe reflected that state of being. Finally, I just want to say that I'm not sure what you're disagreeing with in regards to my statement about serpents evolving into dragons. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems like you're saying that the process is reversed somehow? But even then, that doesn't seem like what you're saying. :/ Thanks for the wonderful insights though. :)

[@user-wq1dt7li2x]

@@maxderrat I don't have many textual recommendations, but you can find some sources at www.goldenelixir.com/jindan_texts.html and another useful item is the Diagram of Supreme Polarity, especially the annotated version. I'm not deeply versed in the Eastern alchemical tradition and only have a (very) passing understanding of it from the Taoist section of my world religions class in college. The Prof liked esoterica of all kinds. We usually didn't have time for more than a cursory examination, but the distinct ways it interacted with Eastern and western religions traditions seemed to be something they enjoyed examining. On the serpents, I think that the serpents as some group of the ancient dragons devolved and degraded after the appearance of disparity better fits the logic and themes of Dark Souls. In this case the serpents would be the dragons fallen, not the dragons early ancestors. Particularly given the lack of life and change (and maybe linear progressive time) in the period before fire, the idea of everlasting dragons evolving over generations seems at odds with the implications about the age of fog. I think that the serpents would be dragons that either could not achieve ideal inner harmony in the age of fire, or had their inner harmony disrupted through interactions with the Lord's. The series does seem to imply that the dragons may have experienced some kind of major change caused by the birth of fire. Seath the Scaleless was explicitly said to have coveted the immortality of the everlasting dragons. This would imply one of two things: One, death was not contingent on fire and the appearance of death as a result of fire is incorrect. Death and mortality predate fire. Two, the appearance of fire fundamentally changed the dragons as well as the world. Seath's mortality and lack of scales was a direct result of fire. This would involve a longer transition period with Seath born shortly after he first appearance of fire. In the second case, the two serpents may be though of as primordial to the age of fire instead of primordial to the dragons. The dragons would not have evolved from them in this case and the everlasting dragons would be the progenitor group, not the descended group. This would follow the Tolkien-esque theme of decline and the two seem to be implied to have always been in opposition to each other in some form, paralleling the disparity of fire. Finally, I don't contend that the ideas of Western alchemy and other philosophies or mythologies are inapplicable and apologize if I implied it. I only meant that the alchemical practices of the culture that produced these games is worth considering.

[@okeneko5768]

Sorry to butt in, but yea, serpents were probably spawned after fire appeared as they represent greed. They might as well have been similar to how the Gaping Dragon came to be when "..the emergence of life corrupted it, it was warped by emotion and desire" (Design Works Interview).

[@sudoggs]

There are some really good points here, but I would argue that Miyazaki likely had Western spiritual and religious traditions more in mind since Bloodborne, Demon's Souls, and all three Dark Souls games are heavily Western inspired. The upcoming Elden Ring is focused upon Norse myth. Gwynn is also a facsimile for the Gnostic demiurge, a God who creates the physical world but who falsely believes himself to be the Supreme Being, as when the Fire Fades into the Age of Dark the world will continue into it's next cycle regardless of his participation. This also brings to question what force brought upon Fire in the initial grey landscape that occurred in the Dark Souls universe? I'd argue whatever force precedes Gwynn is responsible, and in a more modern sense, perhaps something like the Big Bang. However many of these concepts have parallels in not only Eastern traditions, but also Western traditions. Afterall every culture has their concept of Dragons, even if they had no connection with one another, a good example is something like the Mayans Quetzalcoatl and his visual likeness to Eastern Chinese dragons, two cultures that likely had no connection to each other. Just as well the creation myth, something all cultures seemingly have. Even something like mercury, which was integral in Western Alchemy, is also present in Chinese alchemy. You find one motif somewhere and it's not surprising to see it come up elsewhere. I know I went into a variety of different topics here but I hope this response finds you well.

[@projectonestar]

Silent Hill is what got me to your channel. I don't play Dark Souls (all that much) but I've stuck around because your commentary/view on everything is just too good to pass up. Thanks for making these, it's appreciated.

[@bradleypalmer9953]

Got me playing again. Remember that the locations of items and corpses in the game can also tell a tale, though it might not be as useful considering the perspective you're taking

[@timeforamazingchest5271]

I think the general consensus in the Souls lore community is that the grey age with everlasting dragons is considered to be parallel to the state of the universe before creation, which you yourself have talked about as a merging of opposites, reflected in the symbol of the orobouros. From there, the creation of the universe as it's known in the games occurs, and what was initially a uniting of opposites changed, giving birth to the "disparity," i.e. the opposites as we know them (heat and cold, light and dark, life and death). It makes sense that these disparities didn't make an appearance during the grey age, because the 'everlasting' dragons were just that - 'everlasting.' If they can't die, then the idea of living becomes meaningless, so to these creatures the concepts of life and death didn't exist yet. Of course, if they really were 'everlasting' then Gwyn could never have wiped them out, so the presumption is that the beginning of flame caused what was originally mortal to become mortal and vulnerable. Additionally, I think some more evidence that points to your speculation about how the archtrees emerged from the Abyss being wrong is that in the opening cinematic, we can clearly see the roots of the archtrees, whereas in Ash Lake we can't. I think we can infer from that, that the Abyss was not always there and instead formed as a result of the appearance of disparities in the world: the world that most characters know as Gwyn's kingdom and others like it rest in a 'world of light' that is reflected in the depths below as an ocean of darkness. It is interesting to think about the possibility of a world or history before the grey age we see in the opening cinematic, however, so you've done a good job presenting that as an alternative that is worth considering.

[@DeCoR18]

Before I say this, this is nothing personal against you. But if you think anything you typed there is remotely coherent you're wrong. This comment is so similar to hundreds if not thousands of others in the Dark Souls lore community that descend into abstract nonsense, the vast vast majority of people that comment about Dark Souls lore, particularly how physical reality works in that universe descend into incoherent nonsense. There seriously needs to be a critique video of the nonsense that gets said by people while discussing it, I've been sick of it for about the last five plus years, it might be time to get round to doing it myself.

[@tbs4liiife]

It's nice to see fresh eyes on the lore. Mad respect for your dedication

[@nikolicpavle5055]

I would advise you to look up some videos on the original translation because some meanings are lost in it. It will give you a new look into things! Keep up these nice vids!

[@lilwater7358]

Not only Dark souls.. Or other games.. This knowledge is to be found in almost everything we call folklore today.

[@brucemcclurg8076]

Great video! I love the comparison between Zeus and Indra. Both occupy the role of the Sky-Father across the different interpretations of the Indo-European Pantheon. It’s really interesting to see how from soft take the Indo-European pantheons and creates something of their own, with a distinctly Japanese lens, in my opinion.

[@Perceval777]

I know this is an old comment but I decided to reply - actually both Zeus and Indra are not the Sky Father, they are the sons (or grandsons) of the Sky Father that became demiurgs and finished the creation that was started by the Father before them. The Sky Father In Greek mythology is Ouranus, and in Vedic mythology - Dyaus. According to Rig Ved Verse 1.164.33 and Verse 4.17.4, Indra is son of Dyaus and Prithvi (Mother Earth). The difference is only that Zeus is actually the grandson of the Father, his father being Cronos - the god of Time, who continues the creation started by Ouranus but the process is completely finished and perfected by Zeus.

[@the_real_Kurt_Yarish]

As a long time Dark Souls fan obsessed with it's lore, a few points: - Your theory on the connection between the Prima Materia and the Abyss is an interesting one, but there are a couple potential issues that need to be addressed. For one, it seems that in your last video and in this one, you've somewhat alluded to allocating certain "worldly materials'' (for lack of a better phase) with one another, even though they are considered distinct within the world of the Dark Souls series. The "Abyss" and the "Dark" are considered two separate, yet related materials. The latter being related directly to the Dark Soul, the former a corruption of the Dark caused by Manus "after his humanity went wild". Dark Souls III later introduces the “Deep” as another variation of the Dark, further complicating things. "Chaos" is a substance wholly on it's own, and was accidentally created by the Witch of Izalith when she attempted to recreate the First Flame. It brought forth the Chaos Flame and birthed the Demon race, and did not exist previously. "Chaos" can be thought of as to "Fire" what the "Abyss" is to "Dark". Additionally, you postulated that the water of Ash Lake and the Abyss are related, but as far as I know there is nothing stated throughout the entire series to directly indicate such beyond their visual resemblance. It seems that FromSoft’s intention was only that it was a deep blue expansive body of water. - It can be easy to potentially ascribe negative aspects to the "Dark" in a metaphorical thematic sense (especially considering the West’s near universal cultural association of “dark” things with negative themes), with the obvious comparison of Fire & Dark to Good & Evil, Order & Chaos, Yin & Yang. But the Dark Souls series never explicitly commits to this symbolism wholesale. In fact, it seems to go to great lengths to portray the relationship between Fire & Dark and how they fit within the natural world as being much more complicated and nuanced than that. One may at first associate the Fire with classical associations of light, purity, warmth, and power. Which the Age of Fire does bring, to an extent. However, Gwyn’s prolonging of the Age of Fire is considered to be a perversion of the natural order, and should have been followed by the Age of Dark; the Age of Man. His meddling in affairs causes numerous issues as the natural order falls apart, either indirectly or directly. The First Sin, the shackling of humanity, and the numerous stated or alluded shady works by Gwyn and the other gods throughout the series cast serious doubt on this symbolic image of Fire. Likewise, while the Dark does bring with it connotations of emptiness, corruption, cold, and frailty; it also gives the race of Man their humanity, their very essence. Gwyn feared the Age of Dark, not because it was a danger, however, but because it marked the end of _his_ Age. Seemingly, were it not for the prolonging of the Age of Fire by Gwyn, many of the worst aspects of the Dark may never have formed. So, it may be worth it to keep in mind that FromSoft were likely harping to a degree on Western players’ knee-jerk expectations for how Fire & Dark relate to each other metaphorically. -It’s implied, but not outright stated, that the Bed of Chaos _is_ the Witch of Izalith, mutated by the process that created the Chaos Flame. -The Covetous Silver Serpent Ring’s description in DS and DS III doesn’t necessarily imply that _all_ dragons come from serpents, but more rather that serpents are failed dragons. This is implied more from the wording used in the first Dark Souls’ item description “The serpent is an imperfect dragon (…)”. One could derive from this that they may not have existed until after the First Flame appeared and dragons became vulnerable to mortality. - Probably the most important note of all when discussing Dark Souls lore is to remember that it was made by a Japanese studio. So not only was the game originally written in Japanese and thus could have (and indeed has) experienced information lost in translation, but also that many of the themes and ideas were formed from a distinctly Japanese perspective.

[@JayWhipp1e]

Well put, also remember the dark has good connotations as well. Its referred to as serene, tranquil, and gentle. Vendrick says "the brighter the flame, the deeper the shadow", and I believe the games show ample evidence that when the gods placed the seal of fire on mankind, the dark began ram and writhe against its shackles. The very act of banishing the dark may well have unleashed the wrath of the previously tranquil abyss.

[@JayWhipp1e]

Also the dark is directly compared to "the will" of mankind, which is a buddhist concept (also arthur schopenhauer in the west) that fromsoft likes to draw from and knows much about. Sekiro shows us that much :) The shameless yearning of man as shira puts it, and the curse of want, is a product of the dark soul, and represents the human condition of ceaseless striving and desire leading to suffering.

[@JayWhipp1e]

You're one of the only people I've read that so closely coincides with my interpretations. Kudos. So many people seem to miss the eastern elements. The opposing forces of both light and dark being parts of a whole that cannot exist without the other. Or in the case of the dark souls universe a balanced cycle of ages. Ds3 even states that following an age of dark, eventually embers will appear in the darkness signaling a return to fire. Also, look at the humanity sprites, and most hexes and dark pyromancies or abyssal energy coming off of certain bosses. It's all black with a white outline or mist surrounding it. Yin and yang. A huge sign imo.

[@JayWhipp1e]

I have my own theories of the deep and how its corruption appears to be an accumulation of stagnation from constant linkings of the fire. Human dregs accumulating in the sediment of the deep seems to be an unnatural occurence, regardless of Aldrich's belief it is the bedrock of the world. Though maybe I'm wrong and hes right.. It also brings to mind the common and widespread ancient mythologies of "the primal waters" the infinite expanse of primal deep seas that existed before creation was made on top of it. I feel there may be something more to the deep than I'm grasping.. the deep gem's description of "there is a darkness beyond human ken" really sticks with me. I also think there may be some connections with nito involved. Aldrich having a gravelord sword and the amount of death and decay associated with the deep seems to smack of nito, a diety whose influence is suspiciously absent, when all the other lords, even seathe, seem to have left some sort of legacy in ds3. The explanations of "oh Aldrich just dreamt it up like lifehunt" seems so out of place and random to me. Lifehunt makes sense, since yorshka and assumedly Priscilla were Gwyndolin's siblings.

[@PlatinumGamer20205]

I really enjoyed these souls series analyses. He’s bringing a much different perspective than the norm an it’s real refreshing

[@monsterno.definablenever.3484]

12:28 Also, as noted by Red from Overly Sarcastic Productions, a story of a storm god fighting a serpent is unusually universally common in mythology.

[@spectr__]

I think there is a great correlation between the ages in Dark Souls and Jung's Aions, specially considering the End of Fire ending. "The First Flame quickly fades. Darkness will shortly settle. But one day, tiny flames will dance across the darkness. Like embers, linked by lords past."

[@spectr__]

@@TheUltimateMachineGod there is always that! lol

[@noahtheeditor8650]

Thanks for being an awesome neuro atypical KZbin personality it really inspires me to do videos

[@santiagojara8056]

Notes on the beginning: The world was not unformed, it was undivided, that's what the japanese text says. Fire brought disparity. There were no such things as light and dark before it. (This one has a bit of speculation) Miyazaki said that the first flame altered dragons, who were originally mineral "lifeforms". After the first flame appeared dragons changed, mutated and basically fell from grace, that's why we can kill the gaping dragon and Kalameet. Now, my theory is that this change brought about the new species we see, like wyverns, drakes and snakes. That's why the serpent is a being that could have been, but never was a dragon.

[@santiagojara8056]

I'm gonna keep going as I watch. Lloyd is Gwyn's uncle indeed, as the beings that came from the dark are implied to have existed for a long time before finding the souls. The title of allfather in japanese refers to the god that's the head of a pantheon, Lloyd took this title when Gwyn linked the flame, as the closest male in the royal family (The firstborn was exciled, Gwyndolin acted more as a priestess) In Ds3 Gwyndolin actually claims the tithe of allfather, as the new ruling deity in Irythill.

[@santiagojara8056]

I think that's all. Still, this videos are pretty cool and offer a lot of insight.

[@schmebulockjizz]

The thing about serpents being first than everlasting dragons is wrong. The ring was referencing not the Archdragons of stone but the ones that came after the first flame was born. Once there was fire disparity came, therefore the ability to change, for things to be different. Thats what the birth of Seath represents, this new imperfect dragon born from change ultimately represented the Archdragon's downfall. Primordial serpents were born, maybe also as imperfect sons of Everlasting dragons, each to represent one side of the new spectrum. Wich leaves us with the "lesser" dragons, who also started to appear here, and with them this evolution process for snakes described in the ring. You should also really look at Dark souls 3, there is some very interesting stuff related to the origins of everything, such as the origin of the first flame, the abyss as creation matter, and yes, Allfather Lloyd, who is verbally and explicitally mentioned in the chorus for the final boss of the series. Slave knight Gael. For that is where the cycle is ending and so things are settling for the world to begin once again... If you let him.

[@Sephiroth10261]

explicitally mentioned in the chorus you mean in the lyrics of his theme song?

[@schmebulockjizz]

@@Sephiroth10261 yes

[@DaxterL]

Your videos are helping me break my perception of what I know of dark souls, thank you, your videos are a great watch, can't wait for more

[@bjorn54114]

In my symbol dictionary, the abyss is described as the place higher than the highest and under the lowest parts of the world. It is the thing in witch the world reside and thus the archtrees are likely to come from it, had you noticed that the loading screen is a dream you experience while your undead travel through it? It even has a small firelight to guide you into existence

[@DeadbeatShadows]

Now you gotta make a video on how Dark Souls' story is an allegory for class struggle, specifically the dragons representing an overthrown aristocracy, the Lords as the emergent bourgeoisie and Humanity as the ever exploited proletariat. Since no one seems to want to make this obvious video lol Always enjoyable stuff, Max!

[@SmokeKage]

Alright, I've watched a few of your videos, and that's it. I've had it. This was the final straw!.... I subbed. Keep it up dude!

[@MrMotastic]

I've been looking forward to this ever since your post a few days ago.

[@hoverboard]

Didn't think there was anything more for me to learn about DS1 Lore... much less something this deep... but what a pleasant surprise! I've been studying gnostic/hermetic philosophy recently and you did a fantastic job of making these connections. Keep digging man!

[@tylermacdonald8924]

God I love these, it's like Dark Souls was made for mythological analysis

[@marekpospisil4852]

Another thing: in stoicism, there is an idea of a primal flame (the first flame) that burns the world away and is created a new one, same as the old one which is how the first flame also works in dark souls - there are same locations and characters after each re-kindling

[@Dipper1459]

More Max with more Souls content! Yes please 🙌🏻 keep up the good work brother 👍🏻

[@LotanLevant]

The chaoskampf keeps popping up for me and I can't help but think it has some significance in my life. That, and duality.

[@shogunbowgun1220]

To add to the storm god vs dragon theme appearing in many different mythologies, some additional examples include: Thor vs Jormungandr, Susanoo vs Yamata no Orochi, Perun vs Veles, and He-no vs the Great Water Snake. Nothing really much to add to this conversation, more so just supporting what was already presented.

[@Sylentmana]

The world couldn’t have come from the abyss because the abyss was form from the tortured Dark Soul of Manus. He’s even called “The Father of the Abyss”. Manus is strongly implied to be the Furtive Pygmy who received the Dark Soul during the creation myth. It was only much later when the abyss was formed.

[@maxderrat]

I understand what you're saying, and it's an important critique. I think the best way to understand this is that the abyss exists in two states: before the first flame, and after the first flame. Before the first flame, the procreative power of the abyss existed, but it was in its unified, neutral, "grey" state (when the opposites were unified). Then, when the unified state was separated by the first flame, the power of the abyss went to the Furtive Pygmy in the form of the Dark Soul. The Furtive Pygmy used the Dark Soul as his conduit to foster the power of the abyss that already existed... much in the same way that Gwyn fostered the light that already existed.

[@Sylentmana]

@@maxderrat okay cool, I see what you mean.

[@lordkilljoy9652]

Hey, quick problem with Serpents came after dragons, as the age of fire came to fruition Dragons became imperfect from the introduction of disparity- this in turn resulted in dragons like Sethe the Scaless and other malformed creatures like drakes- which might not disprove any of the rest of what you had to say, but you did open on an anachronism

[@maxderrat]

Fair enough. People have been introducing very good arguments against what I'm saying, and I'm trying to take them into account as my understanding of the Dark Souls mythos expands.

[@thesurfingrhydon_9941]

I find it very interesting how well the furtive pigmy/dark soul symbolizing or representing the element of water meshes with the concepts discussed in JSF's "The Bastard's Curse"

[@core-nix1885]

Some great theorycrafting. The mention of Logos was very important, you could do a whole video talking about the history of Logos with Heraclitus and John the Baptist. For Heraclitus, Logos was Fire; the thing Becoming. For John, Christ was Logos Incarnate; His sacrifice is often represented through a fiery heart. The mention of Vajra is also cool. The protective chime in DS2 was originally modelled on the Vajra - it represents the unstoppable force and the immovable object - thunderbolt and diamond - which can also be seen in Gwyn and Velka - her ring in cut content was set with a black diamond.

[@seracris8357]

Can't wait for the next one!

[@johnathansfacew8528]

Cool stuff Max

[@sqwadleader1193]

Brilliant video as always! I could be wrong about this, but the Lloyd's Shield Ring item description is likely a reference to Dark Souls 1 players' skepticism about Lloyd's title of "Allfather." At the time that DS 1 was the newest souls title, a lot of players questioned the possibility that Lloyd was the Allfather to Gwyn (or even existed at all) on the basis that Kingseeker Frampt, Dark Sun Gwyndolin, and other entities who champion the age of fire and the light tend to subvert foundational knowledge about the world cycle to serve their agenda. It was a head scratcher, and got a fair amount of online discourse a few years back, so I think it's possible From Software slipped it in as a clever nod. ...Or I'm just a Carim Cleric

[@SwainBjornstrandt]

Props for using Vendrick's theme. Probably on e of the strongest themes in the trilogy.

[@daltonyates758]

I'm really liking the oblivion music in the background

[@nitrotori9424]

Fantastic Work Max!

[@wackolantern4786]

that part about the black grey and white was interesting

[@Charnel_Heart]

Alright! Nice to see more on Dark Souls utilizing archetypal mythological themes. Your videos are always great!

[@monsterno.definablenever.3484]

3:03 Like the Primordial Seprents, probably.

[@Kalakmol]

You’re brave. I’ve often found that new conjectures are met with vitriol from the established Dark Souls lore nuts out there. People often forget that yes we can take the descriptions in the game at face value, but those words came from a perspective and rarely are perspectives completely unbiased. Also, one point. The current way of thinking is that the Everlasting Dragons came before the Primordial Serpents. The reason is that Primordial means at or from the beginning of time. The intro states before the First Flame the Everlasting Dragons were already existing. The First Flame is what brought time and so the serpents would most likely have occurred after the flame.

[@Timebomb_19]

To expand on your point about Gwyn’s lightning, light in dark souls is often shown to be an aspect, or manifestation, of time itself. The Everlasting dragons, as the name suggests, are beings of stagnation; they exist within their own limbo’s and cannot be changed. So in a sense, Gwyn by hurling these bolts of light at them, is literally incorporating the concept of time into them, which makes them mortal.

[@solaireof_astora]

These vids are awesome. I never thought about these cool connections

[@mrfreddorenton]

Keep it up Max! I've literally never seen an interpretation like this before

[@mafiamentality8751]

I knew it was only a matter of time until you to got into analysing Dark Souls :D great work as always, Max.

[@rogerfvb]

You make some amazing connections. I love finding parallels in mythology.

[@industrialillusionist1305]

I wanted to make videos on the hermetic/gnostic aspects of the Souls/Borne games for years. But now that you are playing the franchise I think you will cover it, as I also lack the time to write up a good script or edit videos to post.

[@kodybuffettwilson]

Don't discount it entirely, if you think you have something worthwhile to contribute to this topic, at least put it on the backburner.

[@Razkunn]

I'm really enjoying your fresh eyes approach to the story. Don't worry about the old guard, and presenting your argument in a convincing way - that's the point. ;) I value a video that entertains, makes me think and shows or teaches me something new, and so far your Souls videos are hitting all the sweet spots. Good job, and waiting for more :3

[@dabbingluigi]

I'm somewhat new to your channel but I've really enjoyed all your game lore type videos. You're perspective and evidence are always interesting. The videos themselves are put together really good also. Look forward to more Souls and other videos in the future.

[@DonDisainer]

Im making maself a soulslike in unity and your have helped me a lot for lore ideas

[@tyrlau9651]

The zeus bit caught me so off guard. Bravo.

[@jjcoola998]

Another great video thanks for putting the effort into these man, especially with these SoulsBourne videos lately Also I think it's pretty clear you were not implying that your theory was absolutely the only definitive one

[@allan4775]

Lookin' forward to more Soulsborne and whatever else you put out, good work man!

[@taedopalleb1373]

I dunno what it is, if its the cool symbolism, the deep lore behind hermeticism and alchemy, or what exactly, but I feel like my soul is starved for this content. That idea that Gods must defeat some primordial serpent to create a new age is just so cool. Why do such motifs and symbolism, especially snakes and reptiles, pop up so much across all cultures? Truly fascinating.

[@henier1065]

There is a motif that I find fascinating, the one where a storm or lightning God has to defeat a snake with many heads, it's really interesting how some things just repeat in different cultures

[@henier1065]

Oh, I didn't see the whole video when I made this comment, but he actually addresses this motif, I feel so dumb now...

[@KirkWilliams300]

Imagine being Vendrick and Aldia and learning that your whole existence was a lie.

[@JMoore-vo7ii]

Keep up the work man, these videos are great!

[@dtgubserino7449]

Hercules clip caught me off guard lol. jokes are always out of no where in his serious videos, love this guy

[@skeletonmeatphantasylibrary]

I live for your soulsborne videos These have been my absolute favorites since Vaati himself came down and blessed us

[@TheAsylumCat]

Something that bears worth mentioning is some folk see the creation myth as an inaccurate, well, myth. Where there is truth to be found, but its not entirely literal

[@hermitcard4494]

For "elements" I personally would have put: Gwyn, Wind. Because wind is in the sky with the light and lighting. Furtive pygmy, water. Because the abyss is dark, deep and opposite of sky. Also Bloodborne made a connection between darkness and water. Also some dark spells description talks about the Deep. Nito, earth. Because everything that dies goes to the earth(decompose). Izalith, fire obviously.

[@kamyabbaghery5942]

Great video max, look upon kabbalah and the concept of tree of life and the sephirots, the 10 words of zohar and daath, the place the dark night of the soul and abyss is placed.

[@matyasvegh2460]

I love the Witcher 3 soundtrack, it really fits in the context of the video.

[@whoopswrongbutton3987]

Always love new theories about these games.

[@padd6007]

Loved it. This helped me with my book :)

[@OmarDimelo]

I guess those folks must have made some good arguments but I thought you did awesome. Souls fans usually understand that theories are speculation . I liked both videos

[@Tullerman]

Love these videos! Where have my time gone though? I wanna replay this series again but there's no time :(

[@liligloo]

Interesting so when black and white are one they are grey very thought provoking. Even in video games the truth wants to be expressed

[@jadak100]

Great video. Already liked. Can't wait for more..

[@juleksz.5785]

Before dragons there were definetly some acient trees and buildings (like place of First Flame, or buildings under roots of ancient trees in Izalith Kingdoms)

[@annabellefawn4171]

I'd never thought of an ouroboros as a dialectical model before

[@annabellefawn4171]

I never realized lloyd meant gray. That's a really good connection, since gwynn means white

[@davidbash3388]

I'd love a video series of Max explaining and theorizing the meaning/story of King Gizzard and the Lizard Wizard's music. They Just released a new album and it's beautiful!

[@josephlangan5672]

Keep the Dark Souls and Bloodborne content coming. Good stuff man!

[@Halden.]

I’m not into the Dark Souls games. But the lore is extremely interesting.

[@austinmyers1568]

If fans of the franchise say your words and theories are derivative they are missing the whole point of the SoulsBorne lore. Everything is in the eye of the beholder. Everything is theoretical and speculative. That's why Miyazaki has the story told this way. It is the players job to speculate and theorize based on what they can discover. I would say I'm fairly knowledgeable about the lore of all the game but even I don't know everything and that's what theorizing is about pooling your ideas and speculation in with others. Loving these videos I can't wait to see more Elden Ring theories

[@vde1846]

Good follow up to the last one :)

[@endma100]

10:20 since the opening cinematic shows humanoids pop out of the ground around the flame and it being the spark of life, i always assumed that nito was made of the unfortunate humanoids that were underneath the flame when it manifested

[@bignerd7683]

Hey Max i havent done any research but i was just thinking that the Solaire pose when we !praise the sun and it reminds me of the famous Da Vinci drawing of the man and woman overlapping and i know that has some religious connotations and help make more connections

[@Sephiroth10261]

Love your theories. I wonder if someone has already related the appearence of fire with entropy and, therefore, the begin of time. As we know, entropy and the second law of thermodinamics correlate to time, as it increases as the particles in a system rearrange themselves, so, time stops passing when the quantity of entropy stops incresing. The gray and still world of Archtrees before fire may indicate that time didn't pass, then, fire appeared, bringing movement and change, increasing the universe's entropy and starting the passing of time.

[@austins.2495]

I respect your content

[@slaindesmond2574]

Hello Max just wanted to say your work is Phenomenal! best lore videos ever! Food for thought there is a game called Hollow knight with some deep mythological lore you can dig into. Keep the great work going!👍👌

[@HokeyBugle]

I've been binge watching your videos and you really opened my eyes to the interesting world of alchemy. I was wondering if you had recommendations for places to learn more? some beginner friendly texts.

[@maxderrat]

Honestly dude, I don't have any beginner texts to recommend... BUT, I can tell you how I personally got into alchemy and maybe that might help. Alchemy started to interest me when I read a book called Aion, by the Swiss psychoanalyst Carl Jung. In that book, he discusses alchemical symbolism for two-three chapters. From that, I started noticing references to alchemy in all my favorite games. For instance, in this video, I reference Robert Fludd and his influence on Shadow of the Colossus. So, I researched Fludd's theories, naturally. And so, it was the combination of those two factors that led me to read Jung's books titled "Psychology and Alchemy" as well as "Alchemical Studies." I also began to listen to some of Terence Mckenna's lectures on alchemy to aid my understanding. I don't know if that helps. Aion is a difficult book, but I did an entire video series on this channel breaking down the book into simple, bite-sized pieces. I highly recommend you get into that book somehow. It is highly influential on people like the aforementioned Mckenna, as well as modern intellectuals like Jordan B. Peterson.

[@HokeyBugle]

@@maxderrat thank you! This is exactly what I was looking for

[@maxderrat]

Okay, thank god.

[@Ton-uy1xd]

Man I can't wait to hear what you have to say about DS3, especially the DLC content. Hell, ds2 is also full of connections to the world of mythology.

[@owenrobertson5043]

cool stuff, love this and the last one