The Hidden Truth Behind N00BS' Dislike for 5E

[@welovettrpgs]

As for all the dislikes .. I don't even care. My channel isn't going to appeal to everyone. Seeing all the dislikes actually made me smile because it meant I'm doing my job. There's already plenty of 6 minute attention span, "repeat what you heard on Reddit" youtube channels. That's not what we do here.

[@nosotrosloslobosestamosreg4115]

That's the spirit! Because wotc tried to appeal to everybody, D&D 5e became a lame joke. I just invented a new curse; "I only wish your niche hobby to become mainstream, so you will watch it die!"

[@welovettrpgs]

@@nosotrosloslobosestamosreg4115 I frequently remind others that many people tried to kill D&D in the past but they all failed. However, it's popularity may be the thing that finally succeeds. There's a term, "Mainstreaming" and by chasing short term gains they're killing what once made it special by listening to the input of D&D tourists.

[@nosotrosloslobosestamosreg4115]

@@welovettrpgs we are in the same page, Altor. Some things should never be touched by money and the money mongers.

[@sonicexpert986]

@@welovettrpgs Agreed, and at the same time I'm not too worried because how "D&D the official brand" does, doesn't really bother me. The people at WoTC are trying to make a fun game, but they have shareholders to answer to. In the meantime, I'm going to keep playing the BEST RPG at my table, and inviting others to try it out. So even if WoTC collapses or the D&D brand falls to shambles, I can still have fun with my friends, and the OSR scene has proven that there are plenty more adventures to be had, whatever game system you might be drawn to.

[@welovettrpgs]

@@sonicexpert986 perfect. It would be a mistake to judge our enjoyment based on the popularity of it.

[@beowylfen]

I think that there's a bell curve going on where some folks start off disliking 5e, start liking it and then learn the depths, and then go back to disliking it. At least that was my journey as a GM

[@welovettrpgs]

Youre correct.

[@twistedturns65]

Part of what I've done is back a lot of 3rd party content that at least keeps the game interesting for me until I can run the games I really want to run. I have a modular 5e system called FateForge which lets you shift the theme of the game around from investigative, to dark fantasy, to epic fantasy, to gritty, etc. It's entirely self contained. Between that and other supplements, I can play 5e, play some unique 5e based games, all without ever paying another penny to WotC or using any of their books if I so choose. Until I can get a Savage Worlds table going of course. 😛

[@daweimer71]

I'm 53. I've been playing D&D since 1982. My group regularly runs AD&D 1st edition with house rules. It's been our standard for decades. I recently picked up the 5th edition books, read them, felt like with some house rules I could sculpt it to fit our sensibilities for fantasy gaming, etc. 6 months into it, I, as the DM, decided to pull the plug on it. I wasn't enjoying running it, and I didn't like the style of D&D that it delivered. I started finding an ever-increasing amount of issues I had with the core rules, and I realized I didn't want House Rules that were pages thick like a short novel lol. My players were happy to leave it behind. We tried, we gave it a very honest attempt. Just wasn't for us. Its D&D on easy level and super hero D&D. Younger people raised on MMOs and video games as their intro to fantasy gaming tend to be more into it, and that's fine.

[@daweimer71]

@@beowylfen for me, it began when I started playing in my good friend’s 5e campaign. I had experience with all versions of D&D going back to Moldvay B/X, except for 4th. My go-to for my campaigns was AD&D 1st edition (or what I call just AD&D). What enamored me to 5th was the character creation options and the fact my fighter had several strategic decisions to make regarding my abilities and skills while playing. Long story short after two months of playing in my friend’s campaign, I decided to move my campaign from AD&D to 5e. I was very optimistic and hopeful.After running my campaign using 5e for a good 3 months I learned I despised 5th edition and the sort of game it produced. We just switched back to AD&D in my campaign. I’ve also sold off most of my 5e stuff I bought, like Cortez I’m burning our boats on the beach!.

[@beowylfen]

@@daweimer71 that’s very interesting, for me it’s a combination of lack of rules and how poorly written they are that drive me away from 5e. I ended up falling for Pathfinder 2e in the long run. I’m too young (28) to have experienced the old ways authentically, but I basically agree. 5e characters are basically indestructible and to an extent even with more options it just makes the tactical wargame aspect of DnD just kinda suck.

[@magnaquam]

Really like your take on this issue. And your comparison of 5e to the OG Marvel RPG is spot on.

[@welovettrpgs]

Thank You!

[@firegriff446]

It's not that 5E has to be a bad system, it is just how it is written makes it more convenient to be a click-clack-math system. A good DM can still make an interesting world for players that will buy into the story. That said, there are other systems that work more to encourage players to buy into the world by developing a background through questions on what makes a character tick, delving into how they've responded to how their world is rather than reducing everyone to a series of statistics. That said, I prefer to support companies that treat their Customers and Staff with respect.

[@verlandes1]

I do think system matters. While a game is very different depending on how the DM handles it, the system hints on what the game is trying to do, what its aims are.

[@SerifSansSerif]

System DOES matter, and the newer "rules lite" games prove it by being so flimsy in their rules that there's little game. Conversely, pathfinder and 3.5 are so notoriously rules heavy that I avoid them because there's no way in god's creation I will ever want to play them.

[@verlandes1]

@@SerifSansSerif well, I don't think "system" necessarily equals "complexity". If a lite system has a clear thing it wants to do, it affects how the game will play out. Two lite systems can differ a lot, even though they don't have as many moving parts as the more crunchy systems.

[@juliempankinn]

@@SerifSansSerif you're just a noob, get better at rules-light games

[@VoidplayLP]

@@SerifSansSerif have you tried pathfinder 2e? its still fairly rules heavy but not in the convoluted way that pathfinder is. The basics are very easy to pick up and anything else is just a google search away

[@owenbloomfield1177]

I find that the system and mechanics guide how you play the game. I have recently played some games based on the Apocalypse system. You cannot approach these games like D&D or similar games. They won't work. D&D pushes you towards tactics, these towards narrative.

[@JesseMcCullough]

Dude brought out Marvel Super Heroes and appreciated it. Man of culture, I tell you.

[@welovettrpgs]

haha and I did it with class! :)

[@clarkside4493]

I ran a yuan-ti temple once. The final encounter had a pool in it. Yuan-ti who drank from it regain hit points, but any other drinkers took Poison damage. It was in the final room and the battle was a nailbiter falling down to the barely standing paladin and one last poisonous snake. The paladin finally hit the thing before it hit him, he stabilized his friends that weren't dead (yes, at least one of them died), then tried to drink from the pool and dropped to 0. It isn't exactly the canopic jar mummy encounter, but the point is: sometimes you just give players room to be their own worst enemies.

[@welovettrpgs]

That sounds fun! Plus I love yuan-ti ever since they were first introduced in that AD&D module. Thanks!

[@helixxharpell]

@@welovettrpgs Dwellers of the Forbidden City... 🙂 One of my favorites.

[@welovettrpgs]

@@helixxharpell for sure! Would have liked to see a Goodman Games version of it

[@Grimmlocked]

4e d&d was what I played in middle school and I love it

[@welovettrpgs]

See, and I didn't even say it's a bad game. Because it isn't. But I'll still make fun of it. ;p

[@Grimmlocked]

@@welovettrpgs lol I didn’t say I don’t make fun of it. Personally I don’t think people would even know what it was if it didn’t have the d&d ip stamped on it. 13th age and shadow of the demon lord/wierd wizard are very similar games in style and nobody outside the hobby would even look at them. 4e is forever the black sheep of the d&d history

[@welovettrpgs]

@@Grimmlocked Are you refering to Shadow of the Demon Lord or is there a game called Demon Lord?

[@Grimmlocked]

@@welovettrpgs I am

[@lawrencemckenna6249]

Played 5e - BECMI and old school is it for us. Once you go OLD you never go back.

[@welovettrpgs]

That's right! That's why so many are redisovering the games of our youth!

[@SerifSansSerif]

I did both and I kinda wish for something between. 5e's a bit too forgiving, but old school is a bit too deadly. 5e's superpower play is a bit much, but wizards having ONE SPELL and 4hp was equally as stupid. Both share in a simplicity and intuitiveness, (for the most part) that other editions don't have. There's just less bloat. I remember not having rules for something for 5e on the spot, so I just came up with a ruling/rule set on my own and when I went to research the rules after, 5e's rules were often similar to what I came up with off the cuff. I can't say that with many of the other versions. They try to goddamned hard to be "realistic", which isn't very realistic, but just very rules and mechanics heavy as they try to calculate the effects of gravity and Newtonian physics on a world with OMFG GIANT FLYING LIZARDS WITH ELEMENTAL BREATH WEAPONS... And here's the thing, at the heart of all these ttrpg's is the desire to have a relatively easy going social time with friends and families. The harder you go, the less fun they are. Making things all or nothing is one things, but the rules should be kept simple enough within reason. (Because I also object to most newer "d&d killer" rpg's that just forgo some rolls in general. Rulings over rules? How about frameworks over specifics.)

[@torynwindcaller140]

@@SerifSansSerif this is my feeling as well. Easy levers to pull to make an off the cuff ruling feel fair and maybe even like it’s not an off the cuff ruling. And I agree with your feeling of difficulty as well. I want a game that doesn’t give me superiors, but has a level of danger close to that of 5e are levels 1-4. Still deadly enough for someone doing something stupid to die, but unlikely to happen by accident or without warning, regardless of player or character skill.

[@daweimer71]

@@SerifSansSerif 3rd edition then? That seemed to be somewhat of a happy medium?

[@kornwallsdiceandadvice3538]

​@@daweimer71 Maybe I'm thinking of 3.5 but remember the mountain throwing build or punpun

[@doodlesquatch277]

I'm just not interested in learning yet another version of D&D, no hate.

[@welovettrpgs]

That's completely valid! Also, I'm being a bit unserious in making my larger point about edition hating.

[@StabYourBrain]

5e Players will go and write their own 300 page homebrew shoehorn manifesto rather than learning a new 50 page rules system because that's "too much work"

[@welovettrpgs]

@@StabYourBrain lol not false

[@helixxharpell]

Why do you think the WoTC designers scream to the high Heavens? "We have a shortage of DMs!" These poor new DMs have HUGE challenges to keep campaigns going past 10th level!

[@welovettrpgs]

Well, there's always been a DM shortage and DMs are the "whales" of the TTRPG community. And WotC is a money grubbing corporation ... well, we all know the rest.

[@davidmorgan6896]

@@welovettrpgs There was no such shortage in the 80s. Everyone who played also ran. Maybe you would specialized, perhaps running Call of Cthulu or Paranoia, but everyone I knew ran games. I don't know why there is a shortage now, but it is often said that this shortage is peculiar to D&D.

[@EitherProductions]

@@davidmorgan6896 I think it's probably very simple. The TTRPG audience was significantly smaller and more diehard than it is today. The addition of new players has greatly outpaced the addition of people willing to do the work as GMs. DnD is the source and beneficiary of the vast majority of the growth in the TTRPG space. Additionally, it's possible your case where everyone who played also GM'd is an outlier and not the common standard. We can't take that anecdote as de facto true unless there is data to back it up.

[@helixxharpell]

@davidmorgan6896 How many reasons can I give you Dave? I 🤔 Let's see.. 1. PC options for power between lvls 4 thru 10 are progressively wider than the options for monsters. This makes higher level play more challenging for DMs. 2. Combats at higher levels become "hit point slogs" that take on avg, an hour to 90 mins longer than at between lvls 4 thru 10. 😉🤔 That's just a couple. From the movie the 13th Warrior.. "Not to worry little brother! There are more!"

[@davidmorgan6896]

@@helixxharpell Great film. It was a rhetorical question. I gave up running D&D in '86 and switched to RQ3. Nothing I've seen of the revised versions have made me think I want to run that game again. And it's not stuff like non-linear power progress or a lack of balance, it's more fundamental. D&D is a game, through and through, whereas I need something that supports a simulation better.

[@1nONLY_DRock]

Good points. I would add that 5e needs to do more to take the mental workload off the DM. That's why there's fewer DM's. Creativity is good and all, but at the end of the day if we can't find charts for magic weapon prices or a comprehensive guide on how to handle travel for your Spelljammer beyond 'just figure it out yourself', then you're only giving the DM more homework. Take the mental workload off, and we'll have less DM's tell us that D&D 5e sucks.

[@welovettrpgs]

Thanks. But I would add there has always been a DM shortage, that's the one thing in the everchanging rpg community that has been a constant.

[@thebolas000]

@@1nONLY_DRock It is really difficult when I'm running 5e Spelljammer and basic situations come up that have no rules or guidance. I have to either take from 2e, or make something up and, most importantly, write it down so I can remain consistent. I know people can play and enjoy 5e, but I can't because it doesn't feel finished.

[@Cookiedive]

Not seen a "Git gud" for a TTRPG before

[@welovettrpgs]

And now you have!

[@Cookiedive]

@@welovettrpgs Hopefully for the last time

[@AlbeitAbsolute]

Lol “Get good Noob?” Thanks man.

[@welovettrpgs]

lol you're welcome!

[@Archaeo_Matt]

It’s a good topic; and, one I think is worth discussing. I would agree that it is not a fault in any edition’s rules; but, I do think that 5e and 1e were _originally_ written for players that wanted entirely different things from the RPG they were playing. That said, much of the shift began in the mid- to late-1980s. In AD&D 1e player characters increased in competence and capability through experience and knowledge gained, but, except in obvious ways like learning super-powerful spells, they were still understood to be relatively normal beings. Those players expected to be inspired by things like books, movies, and TV shows; but, overall, the were not trying to make the game about making their characters into the “main characters” in someone else’s entertainment media. Personally, I think a lot of the change started with the release of the DragonLance novels. Suddenly, everyone wanted to just be the small band of heroes, who were each regarded as important in their own way, and that did not need a retinue of hirelings and henchman to keep the camp while they were in the dungeon. They just traipsed through those dungeons themselves, with their 3-foot by 2-foot by 1-foot, hundred pound backpacks hanging on their shoulders, and merrily fighting at with full speed and agility the whole way. The stars of their own little book or movie. I don’t see it as being about lethality, as that is easy enough to change. Of course, I like it is more frustrating for player to learn that most of the very specific rules from the rulebook will not be used, rather than just the “house rules” of “here’s how we deal with that situation if/when it arises. I prefer to only have concrete rules when it is necessary. I don’t ever just run dungeon crawls; but, I still choose OD&D when I want a light game just for some quick, “hack and slash” fun. For me, the levels below “name level” are what gets the players to a point where they can play a Braunstein in a substantive fantasy world. As an AD&D example, I treat levels 1-3 as being for gallivanting around the countryside finding treasures to loot. At levels 4-7, there’s still plenty of that kind of adventure; however, that’s also where they need to start working out a network of socio-political connections and allies. If they don’t, then they’re going to find advancement and almost any other type of accomplishment very difficult to achieve. From name level, to about 12 or so, I don’t get too far from the “defeat the boss and unlock access to something new;” but, after that, beating a “big bad evil guy” generally won’t do that much to advance the players interests, and it’s more about converting those encounters into socio-political obligations. More importantly, by that point, I’m putting so many simultaneous demands, separated by such large distances, that the players can only hope to achieve them all by delegating to trusted associates that have the capacities required for the task; so, the players better have cultivated those types of retainers. Of course, that could all be done in 5e, or 4e, or Chaosium’s BRP, or some other system. The problem I have is finding players that aren’t expecting to be movie stars, interacting with props, in front of a facade with nothing substantial behind it. I just have no interest in playing a quasi-deity in some regurgitated imaginarium. I do think it’s just down to the expectations that many players have these days; and, I don’t think that’s a fault in 5e, so much as a problem stemming from only playing that one system or ones that more or less replicate it. The best example I can give is that I watched a bit of one of the Matt Colville videos talking about the upcoming MCDM system; he actually mentioned, as a positive, that their game would give characters “something ‘cool’ to do every turn, other than just swing their sword.” Gah! I’m looking for a world where, if you must rely on combat, then probably three out of four times all you’re able to do is just swing your sword, without all the candy-coated fantasy filler. Sorry for the essay, but I’ve had this topic on my mind for a while. Best!

[@welovettrpgs]

Please dont ever apologize! I love reading comments! In fact a soon to be published video is entirely 100% about hearing from all of you! (Topic: What got you into the hobby?") Also, "5e and 1e were originally written for players that wanted entirely different things" Absolutely 100%

[@bigbiggoblin2873]

Great comment

[@Archaeo_Matt]

@@bigbiggoblin2873Thank you. It actually only occurred to me recently that a good shorthand for what I'm trying to do with TTRPGs is essentially play a Braunstein in a world with a completely different historical background. Cheers!

[@yzfool6639]

5E is an RPG where players routinely say things like, "I'm tired of playing my character." It appeals to people who like playing dice mechanic builds, not heroic medieval fantasy characters. Given that, your suggestions could make it fun for a role-playing GM to run.

[@rotwang2000]

I think the adage "If you don't like D&D for it's weird ideosyncracies, you a monster without a heart, if you think it's the best game ever designed, never to be bettered, please check if you weren't kicked in the head by a mule recently." applies here. D&D if its various forms and iterations has key issues many of which are a legacy of whatever mood Gygax, Arneson and others were in when they wrote down any part of the game. You have to understand that the game comes with a bunch of assumptions and ideas, many were mostly an exercise of throwing it all at the wall and see what sticks, and just throw it in even if it didn't stick. Every edition tried something else. I think in the end each edition of D&D dies of bloat. That is the major flaw. You start with the core books, and a decade or so later you end up with a metric ton of options, mostly because a bunch of players live in morbid fear that their character might not be totally unique. Just imagine the existential dread of discovering somebody in Madagascar has exactly the same options as your totally unique fighter ! I'm from a gaming generation where D&D was more background noise. Most people wanted to play something else if my many gaming groups, fellow players, magazines and media of the 80's and 90's are correct, it was about Cthulhu, World of Darkness, Pendragon, Star Wars, MERP, etc and if you played AD&D you were counted among the neanderthals who spent their time hunting down every last rat in a dungeon with your might vorpal sword +6 to squeeze every last XP out of your session. D&D holds a special place, it has for better or for worse lasted against all odds. It may have even damaged the industry for a decade in the 2000's and caused the death of many publishers who had already moved on from the concepts the good folks at TSR first came up with. I find it hard to push any specific version, as they all have their pros and cons, AD&D offers a wide range of options, most of which you'll never use and it needs a ton of house rules to make it work. BECMI is probably the best thought out (at the time) OSR version, but assuming players would stick around for 36 levels and add another 36 of immortality ... 4e is a very different take, feels very MMO "Ram the keyboard and spam attacks", but many seem to like it very much. I think 5e works best if you don't throw in every possible option you can find just to keep your players clapping like seals about to get a fish. Just keep it basic and keep the bloat under control. There is no shame in liking D&D, but for Crom's sake try a few other games and stop whining that new rules make your head hurt, boardgamers learn a new game three times a month !!!

[@kevoreilly6557]

No, it sucks The game is positioned as easy to learn and or run and it isn’t. It’s rules interact t creat a level of complexity that should t exist and does exist because every since core is very poorly tested It’s nothing to do with the size of the base So let’s disagree on this one

[@welovettrpgs]

My point is, all TTRPGs are the same. Changing games is just changing a different set of problems. What you get out of it is what you put into it. And ultimately, edition wars are pointless. The "perfect game" is the one you enjoy the most.

[@usermammal]

Um actually, 5e is awesome and most of the complexity can be dropped and no one at the table will care, and it might be the most playtested ttrpg ever made

[@welovettrpgs]

@@usermammal Thanks!

[@thegraphitedragon1434]

I enjoyed your perspective. I think I agree with most of what you said. As an add on, something that was not covered in this video is implied setting. As a person that goes through addition wars in his own head a lot, I have been looking more and more at the implied setting behind the mechanics. Yes 5e creates super heroes, but it also implies a world of ultra high fantasy. When you look at something like B/X or Shadowdark, there is a much lower fantasy setting implied in the character options and the mechanics. For me, the implied setting is much more important than the mechanics that, unless thoroughly manipulated, dictate a style of play. A deep reading of 5e reveals that it is in fact a very modular system, which can be made deadly very easily, and which carries many of the mechanics of older editions forward. Yet, where that system is less manageable, it creates ultra high fantasy. Unless you invite wrath upon thee by eliminating the flying cat people sorcerer monk of doom, and the like options. Character options, classes and such quickly bend away from sword and sorcery and low fantasy. That is where 5e loses me. Not necessarily in the mechanical mess of super herodom, but instead, in a world which everyone is flying and shooting laser beams from their eyes. (I am being hyperbolic on purpose for yucks). Sorry for the big long post, this is just what the video made me think about when discussing editions, or ways of playing the game.

[@welovettrpgs]

Never apologize for any post! My homebrew world since 1987 is very grimdark low magic so integrating 5E has been a cautious endeavor.

[@sw33n3yto00]

Just because you look like Home Alone 77, Steampunk Haberdashery, doesn't mean you look weird.

[@welovettrpgs]

lol I dont even know what that means! Thanks

[@ajaxplunkett5115]

  Someone needs to bring back the TSR Marvel Superhero role playing game - not anew game , but the 80's rpg ... it was great !!!!

[@angrytheclown801]

All of you should be playing 1E Boot Hill! :D

[@welovettrpgs]

Oh yeah I own that! Check out my video talking about the games I play from the 80s! Have you looked at "Weird Frontiers?" Take Boohill add zombies and cosmic horror. It's amazing!

[@angrytheclown801]

@@welovettrpgs That sounds like Deadlands. The more Deadlands type games the better. That genre rpg is very personal for me.

[@mikeb.1705]

I remember me and my buddies trying to get into it. All we ever managed to do was roll up characters and then shoot a bunch of NPCs. Then we'd put the box away for a few months only to pull it back out when we needed something different to play besides D&D, Top Secret or Star Frontiers. ...rinse and repeat the creation of characters and untimely deaths of NPCs >.

[@angrytheclown801]

@@mikeb.1705 That can be a problem for just about any RPG. I kinda suggest if all else fails, Toon or Saturday Morning Action Hour if that tends to be a routine risk. Since both are based off cartoons, it can be really hard to resist hamming it up. I know I'd play a villain in both just so I could give monologues.

[@thactotum]

Alternity 1e or die! lol, still haven't managed to get anyone to play that system with. doesn't have to be star drive or dark matter, I've got the super powers book and the alternate reality hopping book (tangents) too.

[@BX_Disciple]

There is a perfect version of D&D, its called B/X!

[@trollsmyth]

Yep. For me, B/X is best because of just how easy it is to houserule and flavor to taste. But it also doesn't hurt that I can just about run it in my sleep. ;)

[@welovettrpgs]

Exactly why I nearly returned to 2E AD&D before taking the 5E plunge.

[@unclebrat]

I use white box for the same reason!

[@alexabel8010]

What the heck is B/X? That sounds awesome!

[@trollsmyth]

@@alexabel8010 Moldvay’s Basic and Cook’s Expert D&D. These came out in ‘81. Together, the books run a total of 128 pages, take PCs up to level 20+, include spells, magic items, monsters, end-game stronghold-building, and DM advice. It’s the pair of boxed sets with the Eril Otus covers. You can run ‘em straight from the box, but they were designed for a very different flavor of D&D than is favored today.

[@alexabel8010]

@@trollsmyth I'm gonna give that a browse! Thanks a lot, friend!

[@Pr0pheT77]

Your point is valid, but... . Any system can be adjusted to suit your needs. You can pick and drop optional rules. People have taken the core of 5e and created vastly different RPGs, such as Adventures in MW, or Beowulf, or Broken Weave. Do you want to run a horror game? Use a fear/sanity metacurrency. The problem is that if you want to lower your work level as a DM, by spending money in getting a "tested" system, full of "official" supplements, you are up for a surprise. 5e adventure modules require tons of adjustments to be playable. Goblins in these modules are the vanilla version (up to the Phandelver) book, not some adaptation of a template. The question remains: what exactly are you buying when you spend 50 euros on a book? Can you accelerate running your sessions? My answer is no, and i think this is mostly a 5e issue.

[@welovettrpgs]

Thanks!

[@RadeFoxxy]

Myhtras/Classic Fantasy for me! All the old school ADnD feels, with Runequest 6e mechanics. Best of all worlds

[@welovettrpgs]

Nice!

[@johnnnysaint01]

I don’t think 5e sucks. I think 5e sucks for me. I’m still playing 3.5/Pathfinder 1e Ironically I strongly, STRONGLY dislike P2E, I think it’s straight SUCKS but again that’s just me and my gaming wants

[@welovettrpgs]

Totally valid!

[@jabelardo]

I am a noob that just begun to play and DM in the late 80s 😂 and I tried very hard to like 5e a few times but at the end I couldn't 😢

[@welovettrpgs]

That's fair and valid!

[@helixxharpell]

I was so waiting on the "hit" that 5e so needs... WoTC designers never intended 5e to be played past 10th level.. AND now good ole Matt Colville's game doesn't have a level past 10th for players. AND I'm hearing that Daggerheart and DC20's games won't be meant to be played past 10th level. WHAT THE ACTUAL ______? So, daggumit... My Kickstarter world is being designed to take players all the way to demi-godhood! Because why? Just because why.. I'm done posting now. Loved the video my friend. You're gonna be my DM one day. It's on my bucket list.

[@welovettrpgs]

Thanks my friend!

[@davidtripp2118]

DC20 will have progress to level 20. You should have all of your class features by 10 IIRC, with 11-20 being for "paragon" or "prestige" levels. I don't think that means quite what it did back in 3e, but that is the language that the Dungeon Coach used. 4e is pretty solid up through 30, by the way, though its monster selection tends to run a bit thin. Still, creating new monsters or modifying (upleveling) published ones isn't that hard.

[@helixxharpell]

​@davidtripp2118 Hi David. What my partner and I are working on is an actual crunchy type system. What we're seeing is a trend toward "oversimplification". That's not bad or good it just is what it is. It's more of a trend. We may lose part of that marketshare. (And that's OK!) We're not gonna make 1.3 million in 4 days on Kickstarter (& that's OK too!) We're going to give DMs tools to make the rules as complex or simple as THEY DESIRE. My world will explore hindu & celtic mythology and will have enuff for DMs to begin telling compelling stories & room for growth. We're working our buttocks off. 😃👍🏻

[@azifukare]

After Expert rules, we converted to AD&D, but as an adult who has seen many editions, I kinda wish we had just stuck to BECMI. D&D is D&D. lol

[@welovettrpgs]

Thanks buddy!

[@WolforNuva]

There are a lot of things you said that I'd disagree with, the biggest being the idea that we play a game for it's setting and lore over the system (I always make my own settings with the mechanics of the system in mind and play in those, never cared at all for the lore presented outside of idea fuel), but the overall message is one I largely agree with. No system is perfect, they all have flaws and problems, it's more about matching individual preferences to what the system offers. I'll even have fun playing even the my least favorite ttrpg (Cypher System) and I have fun playing 5e, but I have a lot more fun playing Pathfinder and GURPS, but even those two I have things I house rule and tweak.

[@welovettrpgs]

I really need to get into Cypher System.

[@Suavek69]

5e is just another game, and it's not a game for me. I feel like Pathfinder would do better if I was after tactical combat with fantasy super-hero vibe, OSR/NSR games do better exploration of a dangerous world, and PBTA games do better when you have a story convention you want, and don't much care about mechanics (Monster of the Week - my beloved). So I don't hate 5e, I just see no personal usecase for it. Also, I feel like online most people sing nothing but a praise for 5e, unless this video is directed towards OSR Reddit, in which case... Yeah, but I do have plugin allowing me to see the dislikes and this video has 11:1 like-to-dislike ratio if that thing works right. You are preaching to the choir and acting as though you are in the minority

[@Syndicate_01]

You hit the nail on the head, especially your point on the "perfect role playing game." 5th Edition does exactly what it set out to do, and that's serve as a fairly generic heroic fantasy, (fairly) beginner-friendly "on-ramp" into TTRPGs. So it's absolutely successful in that manner, and succeeds as a system in my eyes (and I don't even really play it and I don't run it, I'm just capable of separating subjective taste vs objective reality, lol). As a millennial who can run almost any version of D&D going back to OD&D (currently learning Chainmail for a one-off retro wargaming/ OSR TTRPG hybrid session) you *can't* compare BX or 3.5 or 5th in a purely apples to apples manner, because if you're playing strictly RAW, there are differences in assumed playstyle driven by various factors (character power level, death/dying/healing mechanics, gold=XP vs slaying monsters as XP, power scaling of spells per day, class abilities, skills or lack thereof, and so on). Like you say, sure, you can tweak those all you want, and that's fine, I do too of course. Now, the key is, someone way prefer one playstyle or system of mechanics over another, and that's totally fine, and it may fluctuate in time, and that's okay too. It really comes down to...pick a TTRPG system that's conducive to the desired playstyle, and recruit interested parties to play. Have a good Session 0, help them learn the game, and have fun. If you want high lethality, low power OSR style play, 5th Ed is more work than BX or one of its retroclones. And the inverse is true. If you want gritty survival horror, Mothership is a better option than Starfinder, if you want a bizarre gaming experience for avant-garde hipsters who enjoy edibles or microdosing, Troika is a better option than Rolemaster. And so on. tl;dr - people who say 5th Ed is an across the board bad system are probably some of the same people who get mad at Taco Bell for not serving Big Macs but still go to Taco Bell anyway.

[@welovettrpgs]

Youre awesome! Thank you! Great response!

[@MrChupacabra555]

Kind of like you mention: I don't dislike 5E, but after putting SO much money into Pathfinder, I was reluctant to change (Sunk Cost Fallacy, I guess 😅) It was only with the release of Pathfinder 2E (and the talk of DnD 6th Edition, or whatever they are calling it) that I finally started buying some 5E books (but its not that I play that often anymore anyway, damn 'adulting' 😅) Also: Funny thing about 4th Edition and the Lore: Because they intoduced the 'Primal' source for spells, it actually made the Dark Sun setting make more sense, as that setting is supposed to lack a 'Divine' magic source, but in old editions characters still cast 'cleric' spells. In 4E you could truly make a campaign that had no true 'Gods' or godly power sources (and the only books from 4E that I did buy, out of nostalgia, were the Dark Sun sourcebooks).

[@welovettrpgs]

Oh man, I played DDO for years entirely because of the Sunk Cost Fallacy, and I'm convinced those still playing DDO do so for that very reason. Pathfinder is pretty great though!

[@hectorrodriguez9382]

YES!! Thank you! Count Moustachula here speaking what I've been yelling into deaf ears for the past two years! By mere chance that I found this video, but by golly that I'm subscribing now.

[@Qedhup]

Does D&D 5e suck in general? No. It still works. Do the rules suffer from conflicts and objectively bad design decisions compared to a lot of other systems? Yes. So compared to some other systems, I have to say 5e sucks, but only in comparison to those. It makes work for the DM way more than so many other systems do. Even if you ignore the fact that it's themed as fantasy superheroes as you said. It has mechanical issues that are legitimately a problem. Are there worse? Sure. That's true with anything. But once you play enough systems, you'll realize how bad some of the mechanics design was in D&D 5e. It wasn't all bad. There were some great strides in that edition. But it needs a serious clean up from the ground up (which they aren't really doing).

[@quanion2464]

I like the video but it's more of a tips and tricks video. I mean what your saying is basically "5e doesn't suck! You just can't play what is written in the book." That's the same as saying "Your new car doesn't suck, you just can't drive it on the road. You're simply a noob for not seeing this." Critique aside, I like your suggestions. A lot of useful stuff for more experienced GMs here. The mummy especially was awesome! A sour spot for me was the mention of lore trumping mechanics. I am a lore fan in most games and agree that it helps a lot. Most of my friends on the other hand though always claim that the best thing about 5e is "that you don't need the lore. Creating your own world and your own stuff while simply only using the mechanics of 5 e is best." Which seems possible but is often not something I like.

[@welovettrpgs]

My video is like soup. I has lots of ingredients. But I'm not saying, "You just can't play what is written in the book" I'm saying DMs just need to do better at interpreting whats in the books. And ultimately every ttrpg has flaws.

[@thactotum]

I can't tell you the number of times I've talked about making homebrew D&D reskins into a cyberpunk, star wars, superheros or sreampunk game, and the people who give me crap online about how I should use x system because D&D sucks. Look, maybe some people like a combat round to take Forever and want 10 player stats to keep track of, and they talk up a storm about crunch... but that's not what my table wants. yes I may bend D&D like a pretzel and insert a harvesting, crafting and skills system to change some things. no that doesn't mean system with similar rules to those should be what we play instead. to me the best games are the ones that allow space for fiddling with the dials and adding modular components for variations of play.

[@welovettrpgs]

I like that!

[@johnmagowan6393]

I prefer to DM OSR games and other systems entirely. I blame DnDBeyond's lack of DM control of player options. Telling my players is useless, if they can read it they want it. I am guilty of that as a player also. As a player, I don't entirely love the path of choices style but I do really enjoy the game. 5e is an amazing piece of work, that much is undeniable.

[@welovettrpgs]

I've never used D&D Beyond. I should probably get around to checking that out so I can understand what they're teaching people. Thanks!

[@ChristopherRoss.]

I love 5e. Not because its perfect as written, far from it; its flawed like any game. I love it because of the elegance of its system engine. Its modular, and easily hackable. It has just the right amount of randomness. Personally, I love a low magic setting and more gritty reality than the superhero version of 5e. So I'm building one, and its great fun.

[@welovettrpgs]

I absolutely think every DM should create their own world the way they like it. It's nothing but win when you do! Good luck!

[@Putoaduh]

It's unfortunate that D&D 5e monster design is so lack luster. The reason combats turn into slogs is because there's rarely anything interesting about the monster, so it devolves into who can do more damage first. You can do hundreds of small tweaks to make combats more exciting and intense without it being a puzzle or devolving into a slog. Just a handful of examples I can think of are: Adding multiple Hit Point pools that activate new abilities when reduced below the threshold; Making a projection or clone of a boss monster that's immune to all damage and only disappears if the boss dies; Making the monsters' initiative rolls increases every round so they get 2 turns in a row at about round 4; Give the monster a special attack that allows the players to use their reaction to move away from it or automatically take the damage, so they're forced to eat damage or their reaction every round; Make it so the terrain shifts every round, separating or closing the gaps between players and monsters. It's just lame that 5e doesn't promote a more exciting design.

[@welovettrpgs]

Great ideas. Im my current adventure the boss is immune to all damage until the PCs hunt down and destroy the undead versions of themselves wandering the swamp. And each undead version is itself a clue about how they died which is therefore a clue in how to or not to kill the boss.

[@usermammal]

It's funny you mention abilities that activate at HP thresholds, because that's a 4e thing called Bloodied, and a 5e thing called Mythic Encounters.

[@welovettrpgs]

@@usermammal True! There's really no such thing as an original idea. My homebrew world created in 1987, if I released it to the public today it would definitely be accused of copying multiple official published sources (Shadowfell and fayewild for example but mine are called Nemissatu and Utopiattu) yet my creations - like theirs (I assume) were just the result of our own imagination. Sometimes people can come to the same conclusions. I think that means we're on the right track!

[@primafacie5029]

5e wasn't bad... But we are making the move to OSR games (ACKs and LotFP). The ONLY thing holding me in 5e at all is we are mid campaign with the main group.

[@welovettrpgs]

thats not uncommon!

[@johntheherbalistg8756]

I agree with your thesis completely. Most of the complaints I hear about 5e come down to deficiency in imagination, or like you said, playing the wrong system

[@welovettrpgs]

Thank You very much!

[@JenEssitBroughman]

I started playing back in the 1970's, and then I moved into AD&D, AD&D 2nd Ed., and finally D&D 3 and 3.5. I enjoy the game mechanics and setting; and having invested much time, money, and materials into D&D 3.5, I saw no need to move into any subsequent version. Honestly, I prefer greater complexity to simplicity when it comes to running my games; it's just the way I build my campaigns. In my experience, simplistic game systems reduce a player's capability, and make for bland game sessions.

[@jeffreyquigley]

Bingo

[@welovettrpgs]

thank you!

[@tntori5079]

Love this! Also. Anyone else notice that KZbinrs now have to specify \ defend themselves against being a "wotc lover" or "wotc hater" like. . . Who decided there are sides now? Also also. If you like marvel - I heard that Zenith Comics's new ttrpg "Heroic" is highly based off it (but I don't do superheros so you might want to take a look in case I'm off)

[@welovettrpgs]

PICK A SIDE!! I MUST HAVE MY PRE EXISTING OPINIONS REINFORCED!!!!! lol Thanks, i'll check it out. That's very useful info as I'm working on a review of some superhero games through the years. Thanks again!

[@gurugru5958]

I think your point about dice mechabics is spot on. A d6 dice pool system or whatever sounds fine, but can it compare to the rush of a nat 20?

[@welovettrpgs]

Thanks! And yes, I agree!

[@gamemasters]

this was great! Love the humor, love the flat out assessment of HOW sucks. You've hit another vid out of the ball park!

[@welovettrpgs]

Wow! Thanks again! That's high praise! I really appreciate your friendship, thank you.

[@Androsynth75]

I am absolutely an OSR DM, through and through, but 5e (which I also am not a fan of) has done a fantastic job attracting new folks. A lot of the younger crowd, who grew up with marvel movies, actually WANT to play 'DnD Super Heroes', even if I really don't much care for that style of game. It's like movies: I prefer sci fi movies over fantasy ones. But both can be good, and what makes them good is exactly the same: good story, good characters, good story.

[@welovettrpgs]

100% Thanks. I'm sure if 5E was the version I began playing in 1980 Id be all in for it.

[@drunkendelver1966]

Yeah, the more I experience other games and re-examine 5e, the more I realize that it's not necessarily the full game itself that I dislike. Just certain parts of it (mainly the overabundance of magic), and of course the drama surrounding it. I have a rework of 5e called Olde Swords Reign that I would love to try with my group. I also notice a similar ire shown towards any Powered by the Apocalypse game. I can see why everything under the sun getting a PbtA adaptation would be annoying to a lot of people, and lead to a growing dislike for it, but that doesn't mean that the system itself is to blame. It's the same with 5e conversions. I love to dabble with all sorts of games, because I'm still figuring out what I like, and I want to have a well-rounded understanding of game mechanics. So far, I love the open-ended exploration, danger and ease of prep that OSR games have, but I'm not a fan of the tactical wargaming aspect and granular respurce management. At the very least, I like Advantage/Disadvantage in 5e, and admittedly the character optimization can be pretty fun. I also love PbtA's in-the-moment, cinematic feel, ease of adjudication and abstraction of granular bookkeeping to keep the game moving. Sorry for the tangent. I thank you for your videos. The way you present and discuss things gets me to re-examine them in a constructive way. I'm sorry you've been getting so much hate lately. You don't deserve that. I'm man enough to admit that my personal dislike for 5e is purely based on my own still developing tastes and a petty annoyance with its popularity. The game itself doesn't suck. It's just not what I personally enjoy. Cheers to you, sir, for another well-presented argument. 🍺

[@SHONNER]

D&D Fantasy Superheroes. Is it based on a cartoon? Or just some magic cards? If I had to pick a D&D, it would be AD&D 1e.

[@welovettrpgs]

Hey buddy! Did you ever play the old TSR Marvel game? Nobody ever really dies, nothing bad really happens. You just get beat up and start all over. 5E at its most basic level is a lot closer to that than either edition of AD&D.

[@SHONNER]

@@welovettrpgs Never played TSR anything other than AD&D 1e. I was playing Champions 2nd Edition and Autoduel Campions at the time.

[@generalsci3831]

I love a sampler of games. 5e is currently our group's primary. And yeah, I really feel your opinion on changing the user base would still have haters (and power gamers/min-max ones). That said, I'm looking forward to MCDM's and Darrington Press' games to experiment with in the future. :)

[@welovettrpgs]

great! thanks!

[@KabukiKid]

I've said the same thing about 4e... it would have been more accepted if they didn't call it, "D&D."

[@welovettrpgs]

for sure!

[@macoppy6571]

For my table, 5e was too complex to be enjoyed; ICRPG was better, but the funny shaped dice were confusing and slowed down the game; "Stravagante!", which requires only 1d6 during regular play, was streamlined enough to keep my players engaged.

[@welovettrpgs]

I've been getting back into D6 Star Wars. I gave up on Disney making anything I enjoyed (with Rogue One being the exception) and the old D6 Star Wars rules are great. I really wish Mutant Crawl Classics didnt have so many dice. It would be a great game if they toned it down a lot with so many unnecessary dice. Fortunately we play MCC via a VTT so the dice isnt an issue but Id never play it in person for that reason.

[@andrewbeaton6754]

I cut my teeth on red box in the 80s, but highly appreciate 5E. Something I've noticed is how often "I hate 5E" goes hand in hand with "In my day", gatekeeping about not wanting an influx of players, as well as other less palatable remarks. As a system it brings new blood in, new content and coverage swiftly following. The bigger the market, the more chance that those players will look at other systems too, increasing the market for other companies and indies. 5E is a gateway, for that alone is has my love. As a system, it allows me to connect with other players still, who are not looking for alternatives.

[@blanesherman5434]

I dislike 5E for the burden of work it places on the DM; I'm not talking about the joy of creating obstacles though. I'm referring to the superhero-style of play you mentioned. 5E is about generic power fantasies/builds/video game characters which is fine. Still, there are very few mechanics for the DM to design equivalent obstacles for such characters, so I don't see it as much of a function of being lazy on the DM's part. The laziness is from the designers who did not include proper mechanics/rules/tools built into the game to help DMs run a superhero fantasy game. House rules and homebrew have always been a part of ttrpgs, but at what point are people basically creating a new game just to play the game they bought under the assumption it was playable from the beginning? 5E is the Bethesda of D and D. Changing the marketing drive from epic storytelling to High Fantasy Power Gaming or something more aligned with who that game is for might help DMs and players find a better match of editions or a completely different system.

[@JonahPedersen-tz3uk]

FASERIP

[@mikeb.1705]

Eh, it's just another edition: it has pros and cons. Pro: lots of new players play it, so it's easy to find a group. Con: the lack of mortality / fear of PC demise (IMO), and the significant reduction of treasure as a motivating factor for PCs (again, IMO).

[@welovettrpgs]

I've pretty much done away with the magic item attunement numbers. I'm also convinced they added that to try to rebalance the game . It didn't work and they were basically admitted the game is unbalanced by creating that limitation. And it removed a huge motivating reward for players.

[@mikeb.1705]

​@@welovettrpgs I did the same ~ trashed the attunement rule and made Identify a useful spell again.

[@Not_Here_To_Make_Friends]

Your pro is real, but your cons are not. Those are DM problems, not system problems.

[@mikeb.1705]

@@Not_Here_To_Make_Friends that's why I added "IMO". If you play the system RAW, they are legitimate ...differences... compared to earlier versions of the game. Are they a CON? Not for everyone. Some people like playing superheroes right out of the box, and not having to tally every gold piece. Can a skilled DM overcome those system obstacles and make the game feel dangerous, and that treasure is worth collecting? Yes. Can a new DM do likewise? Probably eventually.

[@Grimmlocked]

So I just have to double check but your “alternate death rules” are just the 4e dying rules

[@welovettrpgs]

Maybe, I made that house rule for myself back in the early 80s for 1E D&D because the official rules sucked. I knew a lot of others who did the same thing or something very similar.

[@HeikoWiebe]

I never played 4e, and I'm pretty sure those were the variant rules in AD&D 2e we used, to increase survivability (ironically).

[@colinleat8309]

Your weird looking Aten. 😂. I wouldn't have it any other way! As I've said several times before, we're a bunch of 50 year old farts and our group still play 2nd edition. The last "new" version we played was 3.5, so I have no personal opinion about 4 or 5e. We've talked about trying 5e, but honestly, we're just not willing to commit the money to it. I guess we're just stuck in our old ways 😂. You said it best though, regardless of what edition you play, as long as you're having FUN, that's the best one! Sorry to see your getting the negative feedback, I say F'em. Your a fantastic guide. Keep doing what you're doing brother! 🖖😎🤘🇨🇦❤️

[@welovettrpgs]

Thanks buddy!

[@JackFetch-eb1gr]

I like your style and my personal favourite game is Pendragon

[@welovettrpgs]

Thank You!

[@shockerck4465]

5e isn't good. It's not all about the players, if the ruleset is weak then it's weak. If you like 5e then play it. Characters are too superhero for me. I prefer BX or BECMI.

[@Gumby-vx7ki]

I like 5E. There are more working parts than broken parts, and many of the broken parts are easy to fix.

[@Jimalcoatl]

"If 4e is your favorite edition of D&D, then you don't actually like D&D," is a bit reductive. 4e is my favorite edition, but I also like older editions (especially BECMI and 2e), I just like 4e better than D&D.

[@welovettrpgs]

If I say "steak is my favorite type of ice cream" then I don't actually like ice cream. 4E isn't D&D and that was literally the point by the creators of that game. That's not me being sour. I could personally care less. Unless 4E breaks into my house at night and tries to force me to play it, it doesn't influence my world. I'm just saying it's not D&D. It just uses the label of D&D. But that's OK.

[@Jimalcoatl]

@welovettrpgs That's not the same. Saying "steak is my favorite ice cream" is me as the consumer applying an inaccurate label to a product. Even then, if I also liked vanilla ice cream, you couldn't say I don't like ice cream just because I, inaccurately, declared steak to be my favorite. In the case of 4e, or any official edition, the product is published as Dungeons and Dragons. 4e is very different from other editions, and you may believe and have good arguments for why "it isn't D&D" and those reasons are potentially valid (4e got a lot of valid and invalid criticism), but it literally says "D&D" on the cover. Me calling it D&D isn't me inaccurately labeling the product, it's using the nomenclature set out by the people who publish and own the D&D property. I agree that it would have been better received if it wasn't marketed as a mainline D&D (even if it was still given the D&D name, just a different distinction like "D&D Tactics" or some such would probably have been fine, but regardless, liking 4e, even more so than other editions does not invalidate someone liking other editions or D&D as a whole. The game has gone through many iterations, and just like how 5e is still D&D despite being vastly different than other editions and still be D&D, the same holds true for 4e. Your comment is equivalent to an OD&D or BECMI player saying "If 2e is your favorite edition, then you don't like D&D." It's simply incorrect, it needlessly pushes fans of an edition out of any potential conversations (ie gatekeeping), it sets you up as the arbiter of what is and what is not D&D, and it discounts peoples' ability to like multiple variations of games and to enjoy many different kinds of fun.

[@MattMillerMacLeod]

System matters, people matter. You can have fun with any system, sure, but other games have better bones to hang one's experience and creativity on.

[@TheNanoNinja]

If DMs need to be experienced to run D&D, then where do the gain their experience? I can get that the game setting draws people into a game. But mechanics can put someone off. Shadowrun is a great setting, but I won't GM SR 6e because of the mechanics.

[@welovettrpgs]

Oh check out my "How to (maybe) be a great DM" video. It answers that.

[@TheNanoNinja]

@@welovettrpgs Watching YT videos is no substitution for experience. Knowing is one thing, being able to implement it is another. There are a lot of players who will not DM. I saw a posting, Our DM is on a break, looking for a replacement for a very specific style of campaign. My thought was, DM it yourself.

[@kimnowell603]

My biggest gripe about 5e is how player focused all the products are. All the points you made about creativity and creating obstacles that can't be fought through are perfectly reasonable. Nothing in the books or supplements seem to address this or even broach the topic. I work 40 hrs a week and I don't have a lot of the freedoms I did when I was younger. A DMG that actually laid out a plan to create these types of challenges would be lovely, but instead I find myself digging through older editions to steal rules and content from those instead of using the resources designed for this edition. That's why I think 5e is lacking.

[@welovettrpgs]

Agreed! With everything .

[@arakuss1]

That is what happened with me. I wanted to get back into role playing with my group of friends who we had basically all stated playing board games. They talked me into 5e and i created a campaign and we all had fun. Learning the new rules compared to 3.5 and 2e and some even AD&D. I found myself doing the same thing. Digging through old and even new systems and editions to borrow rules. I think 5e would have done good to have think tanks coming up with variant rules and challenges and publishing them to help expand and aid DMS and even players. Things to give flavor to classes for players and approaches for DMs to use. Resources and challenges to aid the DM who is the one going to be buying most of the products. To me 5e has alot of promise but they needed a plan and guide to evolve new ideas and resources into the game. For players they just seem to want to throw out new sub classes and not refine and hone the sub classes and classes that exist. As for DMs there well doesn't seem to be much for them. What I think is lacking is helping the creativity of playing and dming the game. Introducing more variants and giving the system a life to grow. I don't know I just find myself being drawn to other systems that do enable that type of creativity. That is what I find less appealing bout 5e. With the focus to heavy on player products as you put it they forget that its the DM creating the world that allows those players to actually create their characters. Product should been placed on helping the DM create so the players get more drawn into the world of role playing.

[@ljmiller96]

I get the temptation to work up the easily outraged. It's so easy though. Your ideas about house ruling 5E are great. If your numbers are bad on this vid, put that part in its own video. As a grognard too, I was one of those who thought 5E brought back the best parts of ODND and BX. It convinced me to return to playing TTRPGs in the plague years after taking 30 years off. Anyway, well written video and killer 19th century clothing. I'll have to take notes for my Vaesen game.

[@welovettrpgs]

Thanks! (a little secret, I don't want the easily outraged to watch the entire video. I'm not interested in catering to them.)

[@jnstewart1976]

I like 5e and I’m an old grognard that has played every edition thus far. It was easy to teach to new players. I’m currently running a dungeons and dads campaign where it’s my friends and their children as well. It’s not a perfect system, but none ever are. I have modified the rule set to fit my group somewhat, but I’ve done that in every TTRPG I’ve ever ran. I could care less about hasbro, but TSR was just as bad. TSR had the moniker of They Sue Regularly and it was well deserved. One thing I can say I like about Hasbro is how they have embraced 3rd party content lately, because to me all of the WoTC adventures suck. Currently I’m running Dungeons of Drakkenheim and we are having a blast!

[@welovettrpgs]

100% everything you said.

[@jonathanheady8619]

Im new to ttrps in general. Fell in love with BG3 then got into a local 5e game. Im habing a blast so far but i dont have any past experience to compare it to.

[@welovettrpgs]

Welcome to the hobby! Do NOT let yourself get dragged down by the negativity on Reddit or by some KZbinrs who frankly don't know what they're talking about. Stay with the calm, supportive, positive voices that aren't trying to appeal to the lowest common denominators.

[@jonathanheady8619]

@welovettrpgs I think we have a great dm so I'm just having fun and learning as we go. Cheers!

[@direden]

I appreciate your honesty... and appreciate anyone old enough to have a copy of that Marvel Game. Mine fell apart. I'm an old school gamer who really enjoys 5e. And 100% Agree with your points

[@welovettrpgs]

Thank you very much!

[@DMTalesTTRPG]

5e is not a bad game. And I don’t like running it at all because it go to the point where I realized that to even trying to give the party a small challenge I had to make a deliberate attempt to kill them. That was no fun for me.

[@welovettrpgs]

totally valid.

[@TimothyBryan-s3r]

I needed to hear this. Thank you! =)

[@welovettrpgs]

You are so welcome!

[@CMDRBonbon]

This video hits the nail on the head for me, as a younger person who hopped in by 5e. The streamlined mechanics of 5e is highly preferable to me compared to 3.5e. However, the sheer depth that was put into 3.5e lore is a lot more tantalizing than what has been expanded on by 5e. Finding the source of a tidbit of information in a wiki from old editions can lead you to the internet archive and reading the Dragon magazine, and I love that ability because when there's information that I feel drawn to, there is MORE content for me to consume than just that summary line of information. But once a portion of wiki text enters 5e territory as source, there's very little to delve into. In fact, to me personally, it felt like a lot of the ongoing lore developing for powerful figures, deities, and villains just sort of hit a stagnant wall--- as if current writers didn't want to alter anything anymore, when in past editions there was all kinds of overturn and deaths of entities 5e treats as untouchable now. I'd just love to have an edition that has streamlined mechanics while still allowing for fluid customization AND lore you can get really nerdy about...

[@welovettrpgs]

thanks. Also check ot my lore videos. Best on KZbin.

[@CMDRBonbon]

@@welovettrpgs I have been!

[@welovettrpgs]

@@CMDRBonbon Thank you so very much! I really appreciate you being here!

[@jamesmangum8575]

Lots to chew on here like a meaty stew.

[@welovettrpgs]

Thanks! I do try!

[@asepsisaficionado7376]

With how heavily WotC is intent on monetizing 5e, one would hope that they at least put enough effort into their system to have it be fun on its own, without extra input from its users. Telling people, specifically DMs (who already have enough work put on their shoulders), to "be more creative" is just a way of shifting the onus from the creators to the users. Let's be honest, a creative DM can make any system fun, regardless of quality. Not everyone is at that skill level, and even the best DMs can't maintain that at all times. If the game ceases to be enjoyable the second the DM falters then the system isn't worth sticking with.

[@welovettrpgs]

If you were ten years old and 5E was your introduction to roleplaying games it would be "the absolute best edition of D&D ever!" Every single person who misses my message in this video is making the same error in judgement. None of us call tell anyone that "our favorite roleplaying game" (whatever that may be) is "better than their roleplaying game." I'm not a 5e cheerleader. That's not even the point of this video. You're never going to see a WotC cheerleading upload on this channel and I do not promote their products. In fact I do not have a high opinion of those who do. I'm simply tired of adults - who should know better - who had to endure adults telling us our hobby was stupid - telling kids coming into the hobby today that their favorite rpg is stupid. Instead of telling kids their hobby is stupid those adults need to realize every edition has had its flaws. And we have found a way around that. Anyone who thinks AD&D didn't require a lot of homebrewing to make it work is suffering from early onset dementia. Thanks for the views.

[@lightfighter4evr]

I believe all the other dungeon tubers should watch this video and learn from it and act on it particularly your closing remarks.

[@welovettrpgs]

Thank you! Unfortunately I have learned that many of my videos are also IQ tests and not everybody passes. I guess why we're still struggling with less than 5k subs while others who started at the same time as me with performative outrage videos have over 40k. I am very grateful for those who I have reached and I know I am blessed to have your support.

[@xaosbob]

Love you, Aten, and love your work. You are truly an unexpected breath of fresh air in this last year.

[@welovettrpgs]

You're too kind! Thank you!

[@DeRoxx4114]

I just think it is very interesting how a lot of these arguments are basically, "I don't like how you play pretend. I play pretend better than you!" A lot of these changes and differences are really not as big as a deal people make them out to be. Play what you like. I really like 5e, but I will still definitely play the 2024 updates. I am currently trying to learn Pathfinder. And I will also try and learn DaggerHeart, MCDM, and DC20 when they all come out. It is funny, because this sentiment is only held for TTRPGs. No one has ever said, "No, I will never play Battleship, I only play Monopoly, but also only the 1935 version. The only real Monopoly games use the Thimble." It just sounds silly.

[@welovettrpgs]

It's great that you're checking out other ttrpgs! kudos for that! Playing other games - even if only for a session or two - will have a great impact on whatever your favorite game is by allowing you to see different strategies, etc. And you're right about the game snobbery. Thanks!

[@murgel2006]

The setting truly is at the core for most people. i.e. Das Schwarze Auge/The Dark Eye is the most prominent example. I often hear passionate players say they play the game despite the rules. There even is an adaptation of the setting with 5e rules. For me it is the other way around, I think that DSA/TDE (editions 1-4) is the most adaptable and easy to work with a set of rules to be found (even if the current edition really is successful in ruining that). Back in the 80s and 90s, many "generic" settings were published but they never gained much success. Probably because they never offered stat blocks for the most popular games (for obvious reasons). I'm very flexible about the systems used to play. But I designed my world, from the ground up, to be compatible with several RPG systems. I literally made notes on how to play the world with several systems and what house rules might be needed. I also work on including new game systems that I find interesting.

[@welovettrpgs]

Great feedback. Thanks!

[@ajaxplunkett5115]

@ajaxplunkett5115 0 seconds ago Someone needs to bring back the TSR Marvel Superhero role playing game - not anew game , but the 80's rpg ... it was great !!!! help me get the game back !!!

[@welovettrpgs]

So ... I bought that recent Marvel game to do a review ... ugh ... why do people make games without at least looking at previous versions? The new one is terrible.

[@03dashk64]

I think it’s totally valid to dislike 5e for the rules and the type of game it facilitates. Sure, you can hack it to hell and back, or fix it with roleplaying. But I’d much rather just play a game that contains mechanics I enjoy and facilitates the type of play that I mesh with. You’re right that other games have other problems, but those problems are usually much easier to overcome for me than trying to fix a game I actively don’t enjoy playing or engaging with. My favorite game is Pendragon and I’ve never run it RAW. There is always some tweak or twist. The only games I don’t usually end up hosueruling are more story driven games.

[@welovettrpgs]

It is totally valid, I agree with you. I hope it is understood this video wasn't a defensive of 5E or to say it is the best ever or even that it's great. Because it isn't. I have no current plans to switch to 5.5 and when WotC loses someone like me they've really lost their way. But I was just trying to say that really all things are a matter of perspective and if 5E was the first TTRPG Id ever been introduced to at 10 years old (Like I was with Holmes Basic) I'm sure Id 100% believe it was the best edition ever made.

[@Eladdan]

I don't hate 5th, I hate where it's gone. Especially after Tasha's. Does 5th have it's issues that have been with it since the beginning? Yes. I don't like how grappling hurts the grappler more than the grappled, rules they didn't even fix in the upcoming edition. I don't like how you have to take a feat to learn more skills. But the rules are solid enough for what's asked. But with Tasha's the rot took hold, from the removal of races as unique entities from eachother to removing 'problematic lore'. To that end I'm not getting the next edition. It takes all of the changes following Tasha's and makes it all core.

[@welovettrpgs]

the grappling rules are indeed terrible and broken. I'm also not interested in the "new edition" and am focusing on other ttrpgs and 1st through 3rd editions of D&D if at all.

[@DavidShepheard]

I do agree that campaign settings are more important than rules. Rules is just mathematics. Imagine if someone told you they were going to replace "2 + 2 = 4" with "2 x 2 = 4" and there was a big fight over which way to get to 4 was the coolest way. That's how stupid edition wars are. (Mind you, that is the "Addition Wars" rather than the "Edition Wars". 🤪)

[@welovettrpgs]

Nice intended pun!

[@alienspaceshaman]

as for all the dislikes...none of us can see them, youtube got rid of that a while back.I find its more about what players you have than the system.

[@welovettrpgs]

Yeah, I really only worried about that with my safety tools vide because I feel that's important information and I was concerned the haters were killing the video. However, with these other light hearted videos I'm not too concerned. As long as it reaches you - the ones I actually make these for, then I'm happy! Thank you for your support!

[@alienspaceshaman]

@@welovettrpgs i watched that one too, I thought it was gonna make me angry but you made some good points. You're not really weird looking you just have some style.

[@welovettrpgs]

@@alienspaceshaman Thank you!

[@dylanhyatt5705]

I liked 4e, I liked 5e, currently playing PF2e, which I also like. What you gain in one system, you lose what the others offered. I did have a period of being a D&D5e Noob - but that was brief angst over the OGL fiasco. Though my players are mathematicians and love the hard-boiled rules of PF2e, I did find it easier to be creative with D&D5e. However PF2e has got the combat encounter off to a fine art. Actually, if could persuade my players (I can't), I'd be playing DCC or Shadowdark.

[@welovettrpgs]

"What you gain in one system, you lose what the others" - 100% fact

[@Military-gradenutella3068]

IMHO, System matters because it determines the game world’s concept. Older versions of the game were harder, and more characters did die, but it was trying to present a different scenario; with plenty of exceptions, pre-WotC was heroic fantasy focused on the character’s personal concerns & post-WotC is high fantasy focused on broader scopes. The system emphasizes what’s important. Best example I can provide is the contrast of the importance of treasure: Old-school determines XP based on gold secured, post-WotC is renowned for having nothing to spend gold on (the Avenger’s don’t worry about money, sword & sorcery heroes do when they run out). TLDR: with exceptions, WotC’s D&D is the Magic the Gathering RPG where the DM is supposed to “tell a story.” Pre-WotC was the DM presenting situations that the PC’s decided what to do with what’s in front of them.

[@welovettrpgs]

You make valid points and system does certainly matter. However, I'm saying it is less important than the setting. I'm making a full video discussing this shortly. For now, check out Tim Cain's channel talking about creating Fallout. 99% of the discussions are about setting. If the setting isn't truly original nobody is going to care about your dice mechanics. No hate for MCDM or Critical Roll - it's just I've seen this film too many times over the past 40 years. Creating knock-off D&D games with "innovative dice mechanics" is a recipe for failure. Thanks!

[@DigitalinDaniel]

I think 4E is the best WotC D&D product because it's so original in design. If you want to play "true D&D" then its better to just go with Necrotic Gnome's OSE, cause it's the most accessible version. Pathfinder 1E is probably the best and most definitive version of D&D 3E... But in my opinion indie is always better, with ICRPG and Shadowdark being the best of indie. My homebrew essentially plays just like EZD6 but you only earn a level-less Feat or Spell each advancement so it stays very minimal. Horizontal progression > vertical progression... and I think my monsters are way cooler. :^)

[@welovettrpgs]

EZD6 is great

[@RIVERSRPGChannel]

Agreed 5e is for the masses and it is harder for the DMs.

[@momojojo85]

When you reference Marvel Superheroes it was spot on!!! I am an 'old-school' AD&D guy and do not like superheroes much (blasphemy I know). Yeah, Superman saves the day... Meh, it's expected. The old accountant stopped the demon, that's heroic. So, 5e... my players begged me to run straight up 5e so I did for a little over 2 years. As the PCs rose in levels the combat became a slog, the players have so many options at 10th-12th level that each of their turns is slow. PC death is a joke. If you play RaW a simple bonus action and a PC 60ft away is healed yay! Imagine the LotR trilogy created using 5e RaW combat, it would 15 hours long! Legolas 1 shot one kill... (Nope!) Folks say if you do this to combat or that to healing then it works. Not RaW as requested. It's the last time I run 5e without heavily modifying the system. There is a reason why Wizards own statistics state most campaigns never go over 10th level. When I ran 2e in "in my youth" I adapted the Role Master Arms Law combat system to D&D, and it was a blast! All the players had fun and we had exciting PC heroic deaths that we talk about 20 years later, some were glorious other just funny! For those not familiar, AL has crit tables that can kill in one hit (like real life). Our group is now playing Call of Cthulhu. Die rolls are public and they fall as they may. CoC can be super deadly so PCs can die but it keeps everyone on edge of their seats. As investigators, it was a learning curve for the players. Combat is quick & deadly (as it should be) so my players use their brains to win the day. So, far everyone is having a great time! Like many people I have been running games for decades. I ran an 8-year campaign from grade school through high school with new campaigns in college. I even worked at TSR before it was purchase by then Wizards of the Coast for a little background. I find D&D to be a great game, Forgotten Realms to be a great setting, but like many authors I had to adapt it to my style and players.

[@welovettrpgs]

Thanks!

[@kgoblin5084]

I agree with the final message, that we should focus on creativity & not just wallow in a hate fest for 5E... but objectively speaking 5E has a lot of qualities that make it just not a very good game. It was a rushed product that took 4E, dialed things back to what was in 3.x, while loosing a lot of what made 3.x & 4E actually interesting. Even if we magically swapped over the 5E playerbase to a new game system, I think there would be less overall complaints because the design of 5E naturally encourages certain bad habits & disappointments. A couple of other points of note: * 4e does actually live on in descendant games like Shadow of the Demon Lord. * 5E can easily be just as deadly as any OSR game at low levels, sans house-ruling; due to early low HP. An excellent example IMHO of how the game fails to deliver in the areas it's supposedly optimized for (full list omitted or brevity, LOL)

[@welovettrpgs]

I really don't think you can used the word "objectively" when talking about the most popular edition of DnD ever published as not being good.

[@mythadology]

TLDR: I agree, if this is a problem, you don't spend enough time thinking up mean things to do to your players. Okay curly mustache guy, try this, in adventures and campaigns I give my players max HP to boot, I also regularly give them special abilities that aren't in the book. I do all this because it's fun, it makes the characters unique and memorable... Also I don't even try to balance encounters, (that is more math in prep and NFW am I doing that). "Balance" is just removing the opportunity for the players to practice good judgement. I just make it clear in the description that this is probably more than the players can handle. If they are feeling the urge to kill themselves, let them do it. In D&D numbers are dangerous, numbers and tactics are deadly. Most of the time you don't need to buff monsters, you just have to play them like they want to win, and are not bad at providing for themselves. Its the DM's Mindset, read Grimtooth's traps to get into the right mindset (do not use the traps unless you wish to kill your players.) For instance, If your players do not fear Goblins en mass, they are being used as fodder and not intelligent creatures that practice sneaking and killing each other as a matter of their culture. (My Goblin lore states that goblins mature physically in 6 months, but it takes about 12 years mentally so when the PC's encounter fodder goblins, they are murdering 1-3 year old children. The old ones are far more intelligent and dangerous.) With that in mind I don't see the problem with Death saves, they are pretty much at my whim when they loose all their HP any way, that is no different than any version of D&D. No, death saves are not an issue if I don't want them to be, (stab) 1 failure, (stab) 2 failures, (stab) you dead. 5e is the most accessible version of D&D there has ever been, and that is great, I find it the spiritual successor to 2e. Is it a good system? That is both arguable, subjective and flares up every time a new edition is released. Which makes it an opinion, and (paraphrasing Tim Minchin) "Opinions are like assholes, you should have yours thoroughly examined." I would add, "and not show it to everyone." which I am currently disregarding. In the end, no set of rules will work for every table, if you find 5e deficient in some way and you have not corrected it so it works for your table, who's fault is that? P.S. FASERIP forever!

[@welovettrpgs]

As I often point out, TTRPGs are really just matyh games with all the math problems dressed up in funny costumes. And FASERIP for LIFE!

[@notmyrealname8071]

Really interesting video. I will say though that I don't think that the fault for the "DnD sucks" mentality lies (mostly) with the players/DMs. The published material really don't do a good job of teaching new DMs. I mean the DMG spends more pages laying out the lore of the multiverse (25 pages) than teaching you can build an interesting combat encounter (10 pages if we are generous).

[@welovettrpgs]

The original 1E AD&D DMG is still one of best and most useful D&D books ever published.

[@Jiamaavindur]

I'm so glad you added that addendum at the end, because it's what I was thinking the whole way through the video! I've never been completely happy with any of the editions of D&D - or any other game for that matter, but my response has never been to label the game as garbage, nor to criticise people who do enjoy it. If it's a system problem, I tinker with it until I'm happy enough to enjoy it, or I move onto something else with no hard feelings (except maybe for my ailing bank balance). If it's a setting issue (agree - setting is king), I'm much more likely to walk away, but again, casting no shade on those who like it. Now I've found / tinkered into existence a couple of rulesets I really like, so tend to import any settings I gel with into one of them (I'm currently doing all my playing solo, so have the freedom to do whatever I want!). Those are the "perfect" games for me, because I enjoy them. As for all the others, I am no more bothered by them than I am bothered by spicy food - not for me, but if you enjoy it, I'm happy the game exists.

[@welovettrpgs]

100% Thanks!

[@alexabel8010]

Your videos have gotten much better! And I wholeheartedly agree with you. I'm currently taking a long break from D&D after realising that I should decide what I really want from the game and I think I'm figuring it out. I've been playing for 2 years(ish) and I've ALWAYS gotten the impression that any limitation to the game is due to creativity. After figuring out what I want and what other players could want, I'm looking forward to playing again soon. Also, finding out that (after everyone was complaining about it) encounter balance is basically a non-issue was a *game changer* ! Lol, I never needed to figure out _how my players might get over this encounter_ . They'll find a way, lol.

[@welovettrpgs]

Some noobs on reddit and youtube have poisoned the entire hobby. ignore them, focus on your own creativity and youll be fine. D&D is just a math game with the math problems dressed up as monsters. A DM has books full of monsters. The only limitations are self imposed.

[@adamwells9352]

Curmudgeon / grognard here: couldn't agree more that 5E is designed to get new players. My personal objection to 5E is that its absence of more detailed rules means that too much of the resolution system is completely in the hands of the DM. This definitely lowers the bar for entry, but diminishes the sense of the "physics" of the imaginary world. A lot of people like that and that's their right, but for me, there are too many actions requested just to be cool, because plausibility just isn't a concern. That attacks the investment in the world, which to me was the primary mover of the fun. ...Anyway. Guess I'm a n00b. 5E sucks.

[@welovettrpgs]

You have totally valid points! And don't worry, we all suck from time to time. :)

[@randomtvninja]

The thing is, coming from 3.5 to 5e I loved 5e, over the next few years after its release I started to dislike it, a mix of the people I was playing with and the realization that I wasn't a big fan of the mechanics in 5e, I've now moved over to OSR/Rules lite games.. if that makes me a 5e noob so be it, its not an insult to be a noob.. but I also think that many people who DM 5e don't do it at the level they need to whicu would make a fun game. You make some solid points about DMs making challenges that actually compete with the PCs powers and theres no such thing as a completely perfect game, but I think spending time to explore others is good, if you come back to 5e so be it, right now games like shadow dark and Mörk borg have all my attention and love. Great video!

[@welovettrpgs]

Thank You! (also, I have no interest in the next edition of D&D. Losing a fan like me is a really bad omen for WotC.

[@randomtvninja]

@@welovettrpgs yea the 5.5 changes really... Pushed it over the edge.. now the game isn't even a fantasy game I have no clue what to really call it. The fact that you've defended when needed and called out issues at WOTC and DnD while still admitting that it's a good game is more than just a bad omen, it's almost world breaking for DnD. I wish more people could actually articulate why 5e and future updates aren't as good as they could be, or rather that.. DMs also aren't as good as they could be. I think another downside is DMs not finding their own specialty and instead wanting to copy actors/KZbinrs way of doing things.. the more you copy as a DM without adding your own twists the more you railroad your players into your ideas vs allowing them to overcome issues with their own abilities.

[@blahlbinoa]

I started DnD in 3e and I've DMed it for a while before 4e came out. 4e was interesting to me, but I can tell it wasn't DnD, it was just WoW with extra dice, it just didn't feel right to me. 5e is when I came back to the hobby. I really enjoyed it and helped start our Adventurer's League at our FLGS and made a bunch of friends and contacts through it. Is it too easy? Yes! But what I like about it is that once you become familiar with the rules, you can customize 5e to your liking, and can customize on the fly if your homebrew is way to overpowered and want to fix it mid-game

[@welovettrpgs]

Thank you! great comment

[@valandilmann4257]

I played and ran 5e from soon after it came out until recently. I'm not a 5e noob. I agree that it was designed to be as widely appealing as possible, and that's part of what I dislike about it. I think it sucks. I shouldn't have to make an undead barbarian that regains all hit points every round to challenge my players. The fact that 5e has such a big player base isn't why I think it sucks, it has to do with what's actually in the books. I, like many players, have used my own setting and lore for years so I don't care about not using D&D. I don't have any nostalgia bias, I never played any earlier editions of D&D, just Pathfinder 1. I'm not riding a wave of hype for hating on 5e, I just don't like playing it anymore.

[@welovettrpgs]

Hey that's valid. No hate here. I informed my players I'm not planning on switching to the next edition of D&D. We're going to convert their characters over to a different system. For clarity, this wasnt a 5E cheerleading video. As I said, I have plenty of issues with it but literally every single ttrpg has plenty of issues. As hobbyists we just have to decide which issues we accept and what we don't. Personally I'm excited about covering a lot of different ttrpgs as this channel grows. It's just new TTRPG youtubers are sort of stuck covering 5E to get any views at all. Best wishes!

[@gradyelliott7594]

I've been playing RPGs (more than I can list here, inc. all versions of D&D) for 44 years. So no, I'm not a noob. I can tell from decades of experience there are lots of other games with objectively better mechanics, writing, and editing. It's not "just me" it's poor game design from WOTC. They could have done so much better.

[@welovettrpgs]

I've been DMing since 1980, beginning with Holmes. Maybe you missed the point of the video. Or perhaps we could talk about soup?

[@codychavez9839]

Realistically, my group gave 5E A good five year run, which is plenty of time in my eyes. It just doesn’t have the same feel. But I would say the main reason we made the switch back to AD&D is the way WotC is treating its customer base. We saw their true feelings after the OGL debacle. My group refuses to support these nasty corpos. That being said, it is with the upmost consideration, that I desperately hope WotC and Hasbro loses D&D for good.

[@welovettrpgs]

If I found a magic lamp one of my 3 wishes would be for D&D to be owned by Goodman Games or Kobold Press. (But also, I think some might forget if there was a contest between WotC and TSR for the worst company ever, it would be a real toss up.)