the history of Lgbtq+ characters in Persona [video essay]

[@anotherquestioneer9386]

You missed the most important character in the series who's an absolute mood: that one girl outside your class in p3 who's dialogue solely revolves around simping for Mitsuru. Amen lord I be gay as hell. 🙏🏳️‍🌈

[@PinkelotjeArt]

YOURE SO RIGHT

[@blinkfilms1]

She's just like me for real

[@chrisdiokno5600]

@@PinkelotjeArt Yeah, Mitsuru Superfan be gay AF for Mitsuru. ~~Then again, can't blame her.~~

[@Ikuruga]

I like how for Atlus it was more appropriate for a high school girl to date a 10 year old, orphaned boy; whom is using the main cast as surrogate family than for gay characters to exist.

[@Jdudec367]

tbf I don`t think you actually date and genuinely romanceKen but more so just pretend and amuse the idea, which just kinda makes it feel sad tbh. In portable at the end he is called your "dear friend" too unlike with other romance partners.

[@Ikuruga]

@@Jdudec367 In the English version.

[@Jdudec367]

@@Ikuruga So? My point still stands.

[@Ikuruga]

@@Jdudec367 Why? The game was designed in Japanese, what?

[@Jdudec367]

@@Ikuruga The tone and story is still the same though.

[@blueberrycake2272]

that transphobic scene is something that atlus fixed in persona 3 reload, which is amazing to see! now it's a lady that's convinced the sun is a fake that was propelled into space in the 1980s, claiming only her exclusive 300,000 yen sun screen can protect junpei akihiko and makoto from it lmao. a rly great change 👍

[@surgecentral05]

​@@user-gj6ft2kc5d No loss then 😊

[@MazioD]

@@user-gj6ft2kc5d yeah user gjd6ft2kc5d, Atlus as a whole will resent the fact that you didn't buy one of the most popular games on steam right now. That'll teach them to stop pushing that horrible woke agenda about not making fun of people for who they are...

[@Juni_Bowman]

I was actually wondering about that with reload, I haven’t gotten to that scene yet and it’s been on my mind

[@blueberrycake2272]

@@Juni_Bowman I've only gotten to it bc I'm spending all my free time playing the game lol. I'm in september now, very happy with how they've remade my favorite game ever :)

[@KasaiKouhai]

@@user-gj6ft2kc5dwhat exactly do you gain from a game having a transphobic scene?

[@Meretrix2]

Yosuke being a cut romance option is my roman empire 😭😭😭

[@ingonyama70]

It would have made his tent scene with Kanji MUCH more palatable.

[@mintytrash]

Me toooo there isn't a day I don't think about what could have been

[@Anon26535]

My headcanon is he's still bi, but he's so hung up on that girl he was in love with dying that he never got the chance to explore his feelings toward men.

[@Nikowo1610]

Omg gay people and persona, my two favorite things

[@Suoly_]

glad to finally hear an actual queer person's perspective on this. only thing, even if you don't get much out of them, the romance options are really great for those that do/can enjoy them to the fullest. i would rather have more romance options, not cut them out

[@PinkelotjeArt]

Valid opinion! I also don't think atlus would ever get rid of the romance mechanic since it IS a big part for allot of peoples enjoyment off the games.

[@sanest-luchino-fan]

Btw, about the persona 2 Jun and Tatsuya things, Considering the interview came after persona 4 and the original director and writer for persona 2 already left,Take the the interviewe with a grain of salt since we don't know if it's another staff of atlus that said that or the actual original writer for persona 2

[@PinkelotjeArt]

That’s honestly a valid point!

[@thiefpotato2759]

I have some feelings about Kanji and his storyline in P4. Kanji has the ability to have feelings for people he thinks are guys. Naoto not being a guy doesn't change the fact that he had a crush on Naoto when he thought Naoto was a man. Instead of just letting Kanji be the bi king he should be, they take a step back and try to change the narrative into him being straight. You can have a "homophobia affects everyone because it leads to toxic expectations" discussion while having a queer character involved.

[@chrisdiokno5600]

To me I saw Kanji as being bi, but also wanting to be a "manly man" cause of societal expectations and all that

[@mjshinyhunter]

the pride pin in the opening cutscene is the best addition to persona 3 reload (also great video, i really enjoyed it!)

[@lssjgaming1599]

I'm also glad they changed the transphobic scene up in all languages (even Japanese surprisingly)

[@ash8244]

What a fucking cringy comment, you people are running gaming with this woke "lgbt" cult bullshit. One day hopefully companies will make games for actual gamers again and stop pandering to weirdos who just wanna feel like they are special. Really sucks original p3 painted "trans" people as weirdos but they ruined that in the remake, considering original p3 portrayed them correctly. No clue why youtube would recommend me this disgusting woke video.

[@pockysquare]

wait fr?? ive never noticed

[@Juni_Bowman]

I will say 3 things about the persona 4 stuff 1. After kanji’s dungeon, the scene on the rooftop afterwards has Yosuke expressly say that it’s ok if he is gay, even with the jokes made it seems that they are very much ok with that idea even if they aren’t as comfortable with it, because keep in mind, they are high schoolers during a time where lgbtq stuff wasnt as openly seen as ok, especially without exposure to those communities, there will be some discomfort with it, my brother for example, when I came out as trans to him he was supportive even tho he doesn’t understand it and often makes jokes that aren’t really ok, he is trying to be good and learn to do his best to be supportive, he just isn’t in an environment that encourages comfort with lgbtq communities. I see that same kind of thing being the case in p4 with the whole main cast 2. The planned romance option for Yosuke, he was originally meant to be bisexual and it seems like the decision for the romance option to be cut was a fairly late one, so a lot of his writing is still based around him being that way, and it makes it clear to me at least that his homophobia is more so at himself then actually at kanji, like him trying to deflect his own feelings to try and convince himself he isn’t gay, an experience a lot of queer people experience early on, especially in unsupportive environments, wanting to convince yourself you are straight to try an avoid being treated differently or seen as worse in environments that use terms like gay as insults. It’s such a complex thing to take into consideration with his behavior. 3. With naoto, while yes, she is trying to change her sex in the way that a trans guy would, the reason behind it is incredibly important. The reason isn’t because she feels like she is a guy and that she should have been born a guy, it’s because she sees it as the only option when it comes to being taken seriously as a detective. That distinction is why I feel that naoto isn’t trans, because once they found that she can be taken seriously, she becomes more comfortable in her identity as a girl. If anything I’d say her story has more to do with being trans if you look at it this way. Because a bare bones summary of her story is that she feels like she is forced to identify and present as a male to be able to live their life to the fullest, but once they were shown that it’s ok to not do that, she began to explore herself as a girl, identifying as a girl. Idk about you but that sounds like more of a trans story then if she was a trans guy. And the big distinction is the reason why they wanted to become a guy, it’s not because that’s what they feel they truely are, but because they think it’s what they have to do

[@firepuppies4086]

Yeah with Yosuke just ribs Kanji on everything. Not even maliciously, dude teases Kanji about his crush on Naoto too... And I'm pretty sure he ships it. He does go a bit far at times but.. he doesn't mean to hurt him

[@Juni_Bowman]

@@firepuppies4086 I think the only thing that was notably actually homophobic from Yosuke was the camping trip and him not feeling safe around kanji, everything else came off far more as teasing which, even gay people do to each other or to straight people

[@firepuppies4086]

@@Juni_Bowman true. Though it's messed up . Well if the anime was accurate Kanji's shadow servants... Got a bit too handsy... so him being nervous is screwed up but... Giant finger up the bum may make you a bit nervous about the guy whose shadow manifested that finger... He got better about it thankfully, but still...

[@sirensong1794]

in regards to naoto i would keep in mind that the sentiment of "oh you actually just want to escape society's prejudices by becoming a man" is a pretty common way to belittle and invalidate transmasculine people, and of course ignores the fact trans people dont just magically transition overnight and are probably going to be even LESS acceptable now. the cultural conversation around trans people was very different back in 2008, these comments get thrown around honestly even more now, likely because of the TERF movement being more in the limelight these past few years. sentiments of transmascs actually just having internalized misogyny or being "confused women" are not uncommon, so yeah it does suck to see the narrative go this route with naoto. the story is also quite informed by the fact that even in japan today, to be recognized as a trans person you must have had transition surgery. the story approaches it from a very "all or nothing" view likely for this reason. naoto doesn't want surgery therefore naoto of course isnt actually a guy. as a transmasc person myself, it feels moreso ignorant than purposefully offensive but that doesn't stop many aspects of the narrative from being extremely icky and every time i've seen a trans person try to discuss why it makes them uncomfortable they seem to get shot down. i dont think a lot of people realize how similar the game's narrative sounds to the shit so many transmasc people get in real life, and it was kind of a sinking feeling for me to revisit that part of the game and have it feel so much more uncomfortable after having heard those sentiments myself

[@byeebitch]

Finally someone who understands Naoto. She is NOT trans, though. Yes, trans people can relate a little bit but not entirely. Because she wanted to be a man, just to be accepted into her detective career, which is btw, dominated by males. She didn't want to feel 'inferior'. So she also had an inferiority complex. The problem was society's sexism. In the end, she accepts herself as a female detective and pursued her career, following the footsteps of her family lineage.

[@Mel-Night]

Been playing P3R for a while now and loved that when you reach lvl9 with kenji's sl he texts you like if you were a couple. There's also this girl outside your classroom that's in love with Mitsuru. I feel like they're having a more healthy approach in these recent games!

[@PinkelotjeArt]

The Mitsuru loving npc has always been there I think, but you are right, atlus seems to be more aware of their past mistakes which is incredibly refreshing

[@channienthusiast]

SPOILERS FOR P3RE!!!! The scene where Ryoji says to Makoto that he wants to be something more than friends...Ryoji you were never gonna beat the allegations 😭🤞

[@Radar_of_the_Stars]

I'm really glad that Hashino is no longer working on Persona, hope the new director can actually add queer representation

[@isaac8441]

~13 minutes about persona 2 ~4 minutes about persona 3 ~24 minutes about persona 4 ~10 minutes about persona 5 yeah, about what i would expect. i have not watched yet but looking forward to the p4 section edit: yep, pretty good video. though it's wild that having an opinion about kanji being gay or naoto being trans in persona 4 (even subtextually) requires so much preface. if you don't explain the concept of subtext or 'death of the author' from the ground up then people will say stuff like "i don't think you understood the story" or "you're totally missing the point"

[@hype5456]

Usually because most of the time people generally misunderstood the characters stories that's why they been so much discourse around those characters

[@surgecentral05]

Most people only care about the surface level of characters, they never actually want discourse or to hear a different opinion. Sucks too, because this discourse is very interesting.

[@Gatekid3]

there are bits of p4 that are super bad, to the point me and my friends had a "point lost for Yosuke" gag as we went though for any homophobic or sexist bit. I completely get why this puts people off, but to me even if a character says something wack I care more about the response. Im more fine with a character saying something out of line if they are immediately punished. The fact that the Crossdressing contest is a punishment for Yosuke's jab at the girls may not be super tasteful, I think it's more ok because Yu, Kanji, and Teddie all go with it fine, and It's only Yosuke is upset over it. It's still another example of male femininity being seen as a joke though so that's more reason for someone to hate it. (I also don't remember if the other guys show distaste for it. I only Remember Kanji thinking if they are doing it they should go all out, and Teddie not caring) On your Kanji point, I think Kanji fearing the perception would be a lot better if it was unpacked like you said. If Kanji went from freaking out over Yosuke's jokes to realizing he isnt afraid of being gay i wonder if jokes about Kanji's insecurity can be flipped entirely into a joke on Yosuke. (It's probably better to just not have the jokes then to actively make Yosuke unlikable). at the very least, i'd like to see Kanji brush off these jokes because he vowed to make people understand him. I just dont want Kanji to be the butt of the joke.

[@chrisdiokno5600]

I alwaus saw Kanji was being potentially bi, or at most Naotosexual

[@meldatari129]

"Honey, I'm home!"

[@PinkelotjeArt]

"You're back awfully late."

[@sanest-luchino-fan]

"Three voices comes from the gramophone, A vivisection of me done by god for all to see"

[@Loknhbgggg]

@@sanest-luchino-fan I love you for this

[@hannahc715]

33:47 This entire segment right here!!! Persona 4 tries and ALMOST succeeds in making very valuable and interesting insights into social issues but then proceeds to contribute to and feed into said social issues and stigmas! It is so fascinating how persona 4 desires to be about embracing your true identity and "pursuing your true self", and then proceeds to draw the line at being fat, unattractive, queer, etc. P4 takes one step forward and then trips over its feet and tumbles down a staircase lol In Kanji's story, no one ever questions why Kanji being gay is being framed as such a terrible prospect, the characters simply brush past it and the message ends up being "men can be feminine too!" Later on, there is a crossdressing competition and the male characters dressing up in a feminine way is leveraged for comedic value???? It is magical, truly. I feel like Persona 4 is emblematic of an issue where writers want to simultaneously address uglier parts of society but are unable to let go of their own prejudices that stem from societal stigma. And honestly thats what makes it my favourite Persona 4 game, it is so unintentionally hysterical

[@xMirukanis]

Regarding the tent scene and Kanji in general. I always liked playing Yu as the neutral guy who didn’t care what way Kanji swayed. In that sense it makes Yosuke the only one of the guy characters to be borderlining homophobia, and not have Yu be a participant in that. That way, it becomes something that Yosuke has to work through and better himself in. It makes the game more realistic in how people can be regarding sexualities in their teenage years. This is more of my headcannon and is obviously still something that can detract from the game’s quality for MANY. As a queer woman who was struggling with my identity like Kanji (just in the opposite way) I feel like the tent scene should be kept if Atlus were to remake the game buuuuut should be rewritten or changed up to where Kanji is more sympathetic and he isn’t the one to be laughed at, rather the ridiculousness of what Yosuke is saying is the thing to be laughed at. That way the few moments where queerness comes up after completing Kanji and Naoto’s dungeon still remain. Also a thing I always adored, which is especially played up in the anime adaption, is how it seems pretty clear that Kanji was into Naoto even before it was revealed she was a biological woman. And yet even after that reveal, Kanji’s interest in her seems to only increase because of her personality and the way she is rather than her being born as a woman. It gives major bi/pan-vibes which is pretty neat I think. (Just to be clear other interpretations regarding their sexualities and identities are valid!!)

[@ebatterz9172]

This bisexual gal who has been obsessed with persona for over a decade is super excited for this video essay!!! 😍💕 Thanks for making this video!!

[@vivianlopez5202]

I really love the "lovers?" contact, I did it every time I had the chance, mostly with Ankou 'cause I just wanted to anoyed it, for "those" lines he always throw on my face, not only is Ankou's case but like 90% of the demons in the game did it too. Yeah Lisa, I know the world is resetting but that doesn't mean you have to kiss your friend's boyfriend :c.

[@masuoku8431]

Although the crossdresing scene in Persona 4 may be controversial for the rest of the characters, I think in Yu's case, it's a pretty cool scene. Yu is shown in the women's uniform, not being embarrassed, and not acting like a woman, he is the cool one just the way he is, and he will continue to be so even in the women's uniform. And precisely that detail is referenced in the wedding scene in the Persona Q, where if you play with Makoto and you get Yu, he will appear in the image with the wedding dress, not being comfortable with the fact of being the bride, but with how the dress fits him, subtly mentioning that perhaps he has a gift for dressing it. It is likely that Ren's scene in Mementos Mission was a reference to this detail, as the same author previously worked on the manga of Persona 4 Arena, where she had to study the character of Yu, and make a manga in which she could not use this detail

[@SkyFlower-hn5wg]

Yu is the true Chad

[@deesnyder8201]

I honestly don't think the fact Naoto isn't trans itself isn't bad but what is really problematic is just how the game portrays being Trans as always the wrong answer. Shadow naoto says so much about how Naoto could never "trespass the barrier between the sexes" and its just accepted as fact. I found a video essay about Persona 4 Golden called "Persona 4- A Bad Good Game" and while there are some stuff in it I don't entirely agree with the video has a part that is exclusively about Kanji and Naoto and it puts into words the issues I have with both of them. Its a really good video, I would reccomend watching it.

[@Rosa-he6xb]

I definitely agree. I feel like the writers were just genuinely trying to do a story with women dealing with misogyny and expectations of what their gender roles should be when it comes to the work place and how that could affect them to try to appeal to these people just so they can be accepted(it reminds me of this Pixar short named “Pearl” that’s about that). But the way they had Shadow Naoto and a little bit of Naoto herself after it word some parts that makes transition “Not the correct way” or “You can truly never be a man” feels wrong. Like I know that hopefully they didn’t mean for it to come off this way, but it sadly does and I don’t think Naoto would be like that at. I still like Naoto and their story albeit a bit messy in some parts, so hope they can improve and fix this if they ever remake P4 to get rid of these issues. Naoto to me personally definitely gives off GNC vibes to me(especially with a part of her social link when she was talking about how she never paid attention to these ideas of gender roles as a kid and just wanted to become a detective).

[@Aaaaaaaaaaline688]

Ren crossdressing in the manga (he's so cute! ) reminds me of the typos in dialogue options in french p5r. The typos are like "i'm ready" but using the feminine form of the adjective When i saw the typos i was like omg joker transfem/enby confirmed!

[@strawby]

Does goro akechi is gay?

[@Juni_Bowman]

47:38 “MOVE, IM GAY!” -Goro Akechi I will forever love this line in persona 5 (I think it’s only in royal)

[@PinkelotjeArt]

that line sadly is not actually in royal. It's a qoute the voice actor said on stream and people just edited it in like it was a nav line. still iconic

[@Juni_Bowman]

@@PinkelotjeArt damn, that makes me sad

[@Jdudec367]

@@PinkelotjeArt Nah it totally happened I remember it myself XD lol. But on a more serious note I can totally understand the Joker and AKechi ship.

[@nyanya6322]

Persona 3 reload got rid of the transphobic crap and made the woman a tin foil lied conspiracy theorist. So atlus is getting better

[@someonespoopy8269]

I would love a video of Akechi and his queer coding, it’s a very beloved and personal topic for me. I think a lot of queer people can relate to the themes of being lost or scared and becoming irrational or angry as a result. Shutting yourself off from people is a relatable thing for a lot of reasons and this complex yet loving dynamic is one of the reasons I love royal. I also think that Akechi and his relationship with surpression and letting go is very queer at least in the subtextual ways you usually see queer people as. The dichotomy between the nicer, more palatable Robin Hood with the “disgusting” but true Loki is reflective of social views and Akechis personality. Not to mention the more intense and very gay lines he gets as black mask. Anyway long rant aside to say that I think an Akechi video is a great idea especially relating to the gay themes and dynamics he has. lol love the vid, keep it up!!

[@yoakleoakle]

Not important to the queer scene but important about how atlus decided to protray specific types of people the hanako?(the fat girl) scenes always upset me i grew up overweight and ended up losing weight later in life and its truly how the treat that girl ans how she behaves is how the general public see fat people and it's disgusting.. p4 is my favorite game but everytime one of those scenes come on i almost cry because im reminded of my child hood self who was treated badly just because of her size and these developers made her a weirdo bad person because in their head fat = bad

[@clockworkcake8057]

naoto gets even worse when you realize that in persona 4 arena, naoto uses he/him pronouns to introduce themselves to mitsuru a year after they presumibly became in touch with their identity as a woman. i hate this franchise!

[@allergyjelly]

Iirc she never introduced herself with any proper pronouns to Mitsuru. Mitsuru simply took her name and appearance (Naoto is a traditionally male name) and rolled with it.

[@clockworkcake8057]

@@allergyjelly fair point, i guess. naoto still doesn't correct mitsuru so it's still kind of weird.

[@wiebsterbeer]

not even 60minutes+ pinky are you even a fan?

[@PinkelotjeArt]

My apologies, the next video will be longer 😔

[@wiebsterbeer]

screenshot saved, let's see if it holds up@@PinkelotjeArt

[@justin_64]

@@PinkelotjeArt IT WAS GOOD DW!!!!!!!!!!!

[@kira516]

Damn

[@chew5262]

Literally Imagine not getting to 60+ minutes 😔

[@daisanity6457]

Spoilers for Reload cause people went through the game so damn fast, so I know what they did with Ryoji. Yeah he's not even hiding it at this point, bro literally confesses to the protag... AND YOU CAN'T SAY YES, AND THEN FUUKA INTERRUPTS YOU. He also gives you a gift on the 31st, says it sounds like he's confessing his love during the Kyoto trip in an event and it just makes me sad that we just gotta stand there with no option to reciprocate or do much else, besides the umbrella option

[@blackxprice]

I want to personally fistfight Katsura Hashino (director of persona 3, 4, 5, catherine, etc) for some of his "creative" choices like having FeMC being able to romance Ken in P3P or Ryuji getting sexually harrassed by the only two explicitly gay men in all of P5 (on top of that, it happening in Shinjuku, and to go even further, I think it's implied Joker and Ryuji were in Shinjuku Ni-chōme, one of the largest gay districts in Japan. so it's safe to say he knew exactly what he was doing there) don't even get me started on Yosuke in P4

[@cookie4415]

I’m so glad they removed the transphobic joke in p3 in reload 😭😭

[@Ro_void]

Yes yes yes omg the whole Kanji thing! I never been able to put into words why people arguing about Kanji's sexuality is so weird. You put it into words though, yes his character isn't about being gay it's about toxic masculinity and why men should be aloud to enjoy these things but the game does put such an enphazis on the gay portion that's it's hard to take that out of discussion That's what's so bad about all the discourse is people want to take the queerness out of the conversation when you can't because the game is so focused on making the queerness part of their struggles!

[@Rosa-he6xb]

I always thought it was silly people debated on that so hard(especially since I feel like logically with the story showing Kanji being attracted to Naoto regardless of when they were perceived as a boy before to then girl proves that Kanji is most likely bi or pan at least to be into Naoto regardless of their gender), but I can’t blame them when Kanji’s story focuses on the “I’m afraid to be perceived as gay aspect” more than “I’m afraid of treated as weird for enjoying hobbies that other perceive as feminine” aspect at the beginning. Like I don’t think doesn’t make sense to have it as I can see that being an issue feminine guys who aren’t gay having to deal with being stereotyped as gay for it, but I think that should’ve been another small reason rather than a major since Kanji’s character is about him accepting himself as himself and not worrying about not catering to the stereotypical and toxic masculine roles. I think if they were to ever remake P4, they should focus on Kanji’s fears of being seen as weird with not being “masculine enough” for others, but not with the fear of being perceived as gay.

[@EnnuiGoldfeld]

17:12 This completely went over my head when I played..

[@Bunsenbrennerflemmchen]

Lisa in p2, judging from a lot of her demon convos is probably bi too btw!

[@hailstormprobably]

I think you’ll like reload for a very specific reason

[@PinkelotjeArt]

I’m slowly making my way through reload^-^!

[@chrisdiokno5600]

I do remember there is a mod adding back in the Yosuke romance. However I do recall it got flack for apparently the mod maker disregarding the opinions of actual gay people

[@hh-oj6wk]

The question of a lifetime...is Akechi gay?

[@PinkelotjeArt]

The answer is yes

[@snxffys6436]

real question, why did atlus make two loser boy serial killers with A and Chi in their names?

[@Kumaclaws]

My problem with 4 is that it relies so heavily on humor when that’s the weakest part of Persona’s writing imo. Before we get Naoto and (debatably) Rise, all of your party members are all goofy comedy relief in some way. So you get Yusuke being an ass, Chie kicking people for nonissues, Yukiko laughing too loud or being rude, Kanji liking feminine things in a hypermasculine way, or Teddy being a creep with little to no pushback. Even then, the jokes involving someone being “weird” or “ugly” don’t really get a way to punish the characters for being jerks. Like Hanako turning down Yusuke doesn’t read as Yusuke being desperate and hypocritically picky, but that Hanako should be laughed at because she’s an “uggo” delusionally thinking someone likes her.

[@shadesofnier1]

Now that I have had to not instantly post because of my obsession with P2, this was a really good recap of representation in the series :D Which is a change from a few essays on the subject that kinda devolve into "I am now going now to states OPINIONS about the japanese and/or fujoshis" which then start feeling quite akward ^^"

[@skarDeluxé]

this is just what i needed... im just getting into persona and i bought persona4 2 weeks ago and its so good, and halfway through i think (at the camp arc ?idk if thats half), I heard so much about persona im glad im seeing queer content as a trans woman 💞💗it was an instant like and subscribe for me.... Looking forward to finishing it and other persona games, and your content as well 🫂💕

[@PinkelotjeArt]

Comments like this make my day

[@skarDeluxé]

TYSM!! i hope you do the same with making these videos, again amazing video @@PinkelotjeArt 💞💕

[@blinkfilms1]

Ive been turning this around in my head for 5 years, im so happy to find somebody else just as obsessed

[@soulnha]

you forgot to mention femc elizabeth romance!!!

[@PinkelotjeArt]

I didn’t, I mentioned it shortly^-^!

[@maskedgamerjoker6148]

Also Aigis and FeMC

[@soulnha]

@@PinkelotjeArt my bad 😞

[@soulnha]

@@maskedgamerjoker6148 they did mention that :D

[@gabepimentta]

You can also kind of romance Aigis and Elizabeth as the femc in P3P

[@emmitt0ther297]

As someone who is part of both the Persona fandom and the LGBTQ+ community, Persona is sooooo disappointing, with so many messages that they have of people’s identities being what should matter first no matter what others say or think. You’d think they would just get it by now and make a good queer character that is open and not ashamed for who they are and are a fully positive representation of LGBTQ+. Everything they have is usually very small or forgotten entirely, Yosuke should’ve been a romance option, that explores his internalized homophobia. Kanji should’ve confronted his feelings about being confused on his sexuality. Naoto while I understand that the point of the social link explains she presents the way that she does because she feels she has to earn respect in the police and detective space that is primarily male dominated and how the sexist culture of the police force is why Naoto is seen as childish and immature even though she’s good at what she does and takes her job seriously, I feel like being actually trans could still work with this link, because even with the way that Naoto is. There is still a line from Dojima and Adachi still feeling insulted that Naoto is allowed on the case even with Naoto appearing more masculine and binding her chest at the time. The police force will always not be supportive of Naoto and her actually being trans and wanting to be a man would still keep the struggle their while also adding depth that their is no changing for others that want you to fail and that what you want for yourself should matter first. I feel I rambled a bunch at the end there, P4 just fumbled the bag when they were so close. Anyway, in summary Gay and Trans Rights

[@shadesofnier1]

12:00 the reason when all the villains of Transistor being gay and the two good guys are the straight couple made me go... 🤔 (Probably more of an odd coincidence, but still xD). Also, others have mentioned it, but yeah, but I wouldn't trust the 3-4-5(vanilla)'s team about P1-2's writing intentions x) especially since I do believe Caligula Effect 2 has some old school persona team on it and apparently that one has some good trans rep ? (Don't quote me on it though, I would need to recheck)

[@PikmanFan46434]

Just out of curiosity what sene do you think was worse. The transpobice sene in p3 of the homophobic scene in p5. Regardless i'm happy they changed the sene in p3 and said they did not in p5. Another thing I like is how shadow Noato is a robot something that had no gender or age I think that really fits with her story.

[@PinkelotjeArt]

While both bad, I think the p5 one is worse just because there’s an implication that the SA actually happened and Ren and Morgana just walked away from Ryuji (which is also just out of character.)

[@mintytrash]

I think the problem with the rep in P2IS isn't that the characters aren't paragons of morality - it's rather that those are the only main characters to go off of for... pretty much the whole franchise? Like, Ana and Jun are amazing characters - I absolutely love them! But if the only way you can write a decent queer character is with the one archetype - it becomes a problem. It absolutely works and it personally resonates with me, but there needs to be other characters too within the franchise.

[@fatefullydead5585]

Firstly thank you for the video! You put a lot of thought into it and it shows. I wont say anything about the later persona games, because those really changed the series and were not even directed by the same person, but I will say I don't think persona 2 was that bad. You did say you were dissapointed by the sapphic rep that was there, but it was inherrently not good rep you said yourself, and it wasnt meant to be, but also I dont think that it makes persona 2 bad. You said there's other problems with their relationship like the age difference, and while yeah I will point out legal age of consent in both Japan, UK and another few countries is 16, (which is why in JP media you often see like glorification of the student/teacher thing) I dont think this scene was it, or trying to glorify anything. I also don't think the message there was to say "gay people are bad". Bc well that's not the only gay characters in the game, we have Jun and Tatsuya which you admit yourself are pretty good for each other. So I dont think it's right to say "The only thing bad about it is it's gay" or that "It's the only reprisentation" Persona 2 handles it's theams and characters very well and better than some of the later persona games. I belive though the main director for P2 ended up leaving Atlus after though, and that directing switch for the persona series is partly why things changed. I have heard though he went on to make other games though that actually did include more well written queer chracters. His name is slipping my mind right now, so feel free to fact check this. But yeah, maybe that was a scene you didn't like and the only lesbians in the game, but I dont think it was trying to say gay people are evil not by far. I think yes Jun was for fanservice bc shounen ai was quite popular at the time, but I dont think it was done maliciously. Like that romance route was done leagues better thant a lot of yaoi that was popular then. Say what you want about neo persona, but P2 deserves more credit.

[@TheHalloweenSpirit]

Awesome video! ❤💜

[@tootsiepai]

AAAAHH im so obsessed with this topic too so im excited to see this video rn yaya!!

[@adamvancleave9200]

Seriously forgot they had a beach scene in 3. I only saw someone else get that far though. I found the permanent sunshine really boring. I kind of liked jabbing Yosuke. Like at the group date cafe scene.

[@haroohusky]

Sanada pointing out chin hair on her chin when cis women also get chin hair (you know, because women also get facial hair?) is galaxy brain writing for sure /s. By that logic he should assume every guy with a clean-shaven face is female

[@PinkelotjeArt]

You’re ignoring the game itself assuming the woman is ‘male’ with Junpei’s comment “you mean she’s a he?” It KNOWS what it’s portraying. And ofcourse woman get facial hair, that’s normal, and they shouldn’t be shamed for that.

[@haroohusky]

@PinkelotjeArt not sure if I worded my statement correctly but I'm saying the scene was stupid and it was a dumb remark for Sanada to make

[@robertoquintero5200]

You forget the secret scene in Persona 2 if you dont help Yukino to obtain her Ultimate Persona...her shadow commits suicide with Anna and kissed her on her lips...

[@Anon26535]

The problem with Persona 4 is that they believe the whole "groomer" thing. Its ultimate ethos is about the damage that sexualizing minors does not just to them but to the entire culture surrounding them, which is certainly laudable in and of itself, but where it becomes problematic is that it runs with the assumption that any kind of affirmation for queer youth is inherently sexualizing. Chie and Kanji questioning their sexuality and Naoto questioning her(?) gender are treated as part of the exact same phenomenon not only as Yukiko's parents' well meaning but misguided desire for her to marry as soon as possible but for Rise being treated as a piece of meat by the entertainment industry rape machine.

[@toastynachoos]

Why do you assume that we do *not* know about Persona? This appearing in our recommended probably means we've played Persona

[@chrisdiokno5600]

At the least they changed her to instead be a conspiracy theorist, rather than them freaking out she's trans.

[@spacechannelg6843]

Thank you for speaking on this. I enjoyed p5 but felt so bummed I couldn't romance ryuji or Any of the males. The game felt in complete and a slap in the face to the lgbtq ppl who support atlas with our money. I'm enjoying p3 reload the game is soooo heteronormative its insane . I'm glad I get to at least be platonic but the dialog options don't let me object to the constant male characters assuming I like women only. It just bums me out I feel Like we are erased in jrpgs . Even tho we have supported these companies. I'm excited to try tactica just so I can romance ryuji. I hope p6 allows us to romance whoever we want. I love baldurs gate 3 it's the first time I really felt they let us fully enjoy the romance system in a rpg

[@Crystre]

Ngl the whole reason I got persona 3 on my switch was because it was on sale and I misunderstood I could be bi. My disappointment is immeasurable and my day is ruined that I can’t date Ryoji…

[@localmisakifan9396]

I hope P6 can actually step it up and add gay romance 🗿

[@jknkjnkjnkj8967]

akeshu supremacy ✊️

[@csrjjsmp]

People don’t like the nampa scenes?

[@thaevildoer]

atlus is always hypocritical when it comes to homophobia, p3dophilia, fatphobia and things like that

[@timothywilson6269]

I'll try my best to be respectful persona 1 don't really have any LGBT stuff cause the game was to busy making a character look racist as for persona 2 never played them so I have nothing to say persona 3 beach scene in both the og and remake are a cheap joke that will be forgotten in 5+ years persona 4 Kanji is unsure about himself and acts like he does is do to how he was treated in middle school by the girls and boys cause he like playing home and sowing so he got bullied which he does have a good social link that goes into all of that as for Naoto even I'll say she is a tricky talking point as for me I found her story to be good and was one of my favorite character in the game so I'll try to be open minded that said she was pushed into acting like a boy to be taken more seriously where she had to look and act the part was it messed up that 2 of the characters couldn't be their true selves yeah but that is also what makes Kanji and Naoto so interesting they must face their true selves and finally accept that as for Ai and Hanako on the surface it looks bad and in modern day it is but once you get pasted that it's a lot different Ai try to be beautiful and everything that goes with it but by doing that she ended up being ugly on the inside and has no self worth where on the other hand hanako may look bad on the outside but she has self worth and don't really care what people think about her looks and to finish up I got nothing to that wasn't said about persona 5 even I found that scene to be messed up to the point I just fast forward through it

[@missskabls2247]

👍🏾👍🏾👍🏾

[@rubenartjovel2393]

The part of Naoto is clearly a wrong interpretation of what the game is truyle talking about. The game is a critique of what we percieve in others and how those arquetipes or stereotypes are wrong and just a superficial projection cast upon others. Need proof? Remember that the shadows of persona 4 are different from other persona games, as you are not only fighting against your own projection but also the projection of the public, so the image of "ideal man" doesn't only come from Naoto, it also comes from the media, girls that are persuing her, believing she is a "charming prince" (an stereotype throw to handesome men in Japan, always remember the context), so the shadow is using the "surgery" as a distortion of the true desire, to cast away everything that is an obstacle in her goal. Also is a big jump that she is experimenting with her identity (that isn't experimentation, because it doesn't come from curiosity or search of identity), as is more akin to searching for validation in a culture where women aren't treated equal in the context of the police. Sae in P5 is a continuation in those topics. So yeah, this whole argument falls apart even more when we factor the ending in golden where she shows her female attributtes without shyness. Also Naoto is a gender neutral name, as it is Akira or many others in japanese culture. And the final nail in this discussion, this is a trope in a lot of anime and manga with a lot of female characters as far back in the 80's that disguises as men because of some goal or other objective they are pursuing, and if she develops some crush or romantic feelings to the male lead, they usually are confronted to be more "femenine" to gain their attention and is a common trope they are shown wearing dresses in a comic or romantic situations and be embarassed because they don't usually use that kind of clothing, is cliche at this point, so that is another point against the argument. With Naoto, this is just putting a little more nuance in the context of 2008 (when the game was released, so trans issues where not in the table of videogame designers in Japan at the moment), so it doesn't matter how one wants to interpret the character, Naoto being trans is just plain wrong

[@The_MEMEphis]

This video made persona 4 my favorite game

[@BooneErica]

NAOTO IS NOT TRANS. will people get that through your heads? She dressed and talked like a boy because she wanted to be taken seriously as a detective. Do you people actually PLAY THIS GAME?

[@PinkelotjeArt]

Please watch the video before commenting. I address this interpretation and say I respect it. There just is allot of aspects of Naoto’s characters that are unique to the transmasc experience and I wanted to explain that perspective and interpretation aswel.

[@Chrys4l1s]

nuh uh

[@TheEverFreeKing]

I would want to watch the whole video really I would however The moment I Saw You identifying as "Queer" it just feels alienating to a right-wing bi person😮‍💨 I don't feel any bad will but I can see almost instantly you'll be filtering this through your particular political lens and this would probably make me angry. I'm going to respectfully bow out in love here to save myself utter frustration.

[@fourthstrongest]

if you're serious, you should strongly reevaluate your political lining and think more critically about the people you think are on your side. also fwiw the video had like one or two political mentions and most of it had nothing to do with such. your loss lol

[@chew5262]

Pro yapper

[@Chaos-vm7cy]

There is nothing wrong with identifying as queer. In fact, it should be a good thing to have queer people have a say in queer topics such as romances in Persona.

[@meowdasbae2]

this comment is so funny

[@pokestar9994]

Queer is a political term?

[@zachariewinters2335]

I didn't so much stumble across this video so much as, I heckle (/lh) you about tma on tiktok so I watch your KZbin content too.

[@PinkelotjeArt]

I appreciate you sticking with my content