The Iceberg of Traditional Christianity ... and where things get weird

[@Captain_Autismo]

Quick take though: going to Church IRL and having somewhat of a social life can remedy a lot of the extremism.

[@bernardgarrett6608]

combine that with limiting time spent online

[@arthogof]

​@@bernardgarrett6608 yeah, I've noticed that since coming off most social media (KZbin is my remaining vice that way) that the world has got a little brighter each day

[@TPizzle96]

I have a great, normal social life but 6 million is just too high man.

[@nickspitzley8539]

Wise words

[@Roescoe]

"remedy a lot of the extremism" Ah yes be a good like boy and don't do anything controversial like Jesus did.

[@ccdawson210]

EO convert here and mom of 5 adult kids and 5 grand-babies. The iceberg rabbit hole reminds me of another rabbit hole that our family saw many many times over the years of home schooling within Baptist and Reformed churches. It was the same desire to do things just right and super pure that took many people to the Bill Gothard or Vision Forum type “ministries”. We were military and moved a lot and we did dabble in Vision Forum ideas but, after seeing several families destroyed because of ridiculous ideals, we realized that what truly matters is love for our kids and Christ and the humility to admit when we are wrong, not some crazy program that promises you cookie cutter kid results. Anyway, the desire for purity isn’t necessarily bad but watch out when it’s combined with pride. That is a recipe for disaster no matter what rabbit hole we’re speaking of. Life has taught me to be way less impressed with a persons credentials or charisma and more interested with the actual fruit of their lives which is only born out over time.

[@sidewaysfcs0718]

To be fair, 90% of these "tradbros" both RC and Orthobros don't even actually go to Church or have an active participation in the Sacraments. And i can testify to this, the more i go to Divine Liturgy and confess my sins the less time i feel like wasting in comment sections or facebook groups.

[@St.DemetriostheMyrrhGusher]

I attend the Sacraments routinely, including the Eucharist and Confession, and guess what, I'm a traditionalist, I don't hate the novus ordo, I don't dissent against Pope Francis. I don't even dissent against the Bishops, so...

[@308enjoyer]

As an EO convert, I've noticed that in my 50/50 convert/cradle parish, the people who take the faith most seriously and attend the most are who you'd deride as "orthobros". They tend to be more traditional and rigoristic in their views, yet I see them at the chalice and at confession more than the more than most others. I think you're imagining a strawman based on here-say.

[@pacbac]

As someone who inquired into EO and Byzantine Catholicism previously, I've met plenty of these tradbros in person. They are one of the biggest reasons I stopped inquiring, the fruits are just not there. I had never met these kinds of extreme people in any other community/group, so the whole "go to Church and touch grass" thing isn't really true from my experience

[@St.DemetriostheMyrrhGusher]

@308enjoyer Yes, they do this all the time to traditional Catholics as well. They accuse us of not praying or attending the Sacraments, all while doing the bare minimum.

[@St.DemetriostheMyrrhGusher]

@@pacbac What was the problem? What were the fruits that were lacking?

[@camilakhf]

As a Gen Z adult convert to Catholicism who spends a lot of time online, I definitely had to fight against my own radicalization by "touching grass" and talking to Christians in real life. Also, consuming Christian content of different denominations helped a lot. I think I will remain Catholic but I have a deep appreciation for Orthodox tradition and Evangelical enthusiasm.

[@username00009]

So you’re saying you’ll remain Roman Catholic, I’m guessing? That distinction is important because there are also Orthodox Catholics (I haven’t dug in yet but I think they stick with the practices before Vatican II).

[@camilakhf]

@username00009 Those would be Traditional Catholics. I did consider Traditional Catholicism for a while but I ended up as just a regular Catholic who doesn't oppose Vatican II. Although I would love to experience the Traditional Latin Mass at least once, I'm very happy with my local parish and the Novus Ordo Mass. Most Traditional Catholics are in communion with the Pope so we are a part of the same Church. Then you have the Sedevacantists who are a minority of extremists that reject every Pope since Vatican II. They are schismatics.

[@heremtica]

Yeah this resonates with me quite a bit. While I am still considering "converting" to Eastern Orthodoxy, if I do it will not be for the same reasons I was considering 2-3 years ago - i.e., the desire to be in the "right" or "most bazed" church. So much of the apologetical propaganda people consume online is complete BS and disconnected from the actual life of the Church.

[@dyejedi]

@@username00009 Hoo boy, there's a lot to that one! Look up "Full Communion" in Wikipedia, you'll see a lot of churches that are fully Catholic and in communion with the pope. Some of those, for example Byzantine rite Catholics, have liturgies predate the Tridentine Latin liturgy entirely, yet still acknowledge all ecumenical councils including Vatican II. The Catechism of the Catholic Church paragraphs 1200-1209 speak to diversity in the liturgy. The churches most would call 'Eastern Orthodox' churches, sometimes called "Orthodox Catholics" split around the 1000s. It is some of them that returned to communion with Rome and became some of the groups under the 'Byzantine Rite'.

[@cleberferreiradejoao1306]

@@camilakhfThere are no Catholics outside Tradition with big T. That’s it. Novus Ordo in Latin or in vernacular languages, Old rite mass in Latin, eastern rites… My parish priest once said that the “virtual parishes” can become dangerous and I totally agree with him. Let’s contribute for our real parishes to grow and change the reality of the world. Our diversity should reinforce our union. Our Lady of Aparecida, pray for us. Greetings from Brazil 🇧🇷.

[@josiahalexander5697]

Man! Thank you for this Austin. I really wish everybody, Catholic, Orthodox, and Protestant, would talk about this. This is a really odd and super unhealthy internet phenomenon. Lord have mercy.

[@christatum4502]

I mean, the Pope is obviously aware of this kind of thing. The restrictions put on the Latin Mass over the past few years didn't come from a simple hatred of conservatives or whatever else you see in KZbin videos and comments all over.

[@ajmartinez1470]

I'm not gonna lie but you calling C.S. Lewis the protestant pope was hilarious

[@CJ-rk5eg]

CS Lewis is respected among many Eastern Orthodox, too….but never confused with a patriarch…LOL

[@Aethelhart]

I thought Republican presidents were the protestant popes?

[@rt3tech]

I got a good chuckle out of that one, too. 😁

[@nickspitzley8539]

Just got here, but everyone quotes from Lewis. I've heard charismatic, Reformed, Wesleyion, and Roman catholics all use him.

[@ajmartinez1470]

@@nickspitzley8539 bro you're so right. I've heard lots of Orthodox priests even quote his stuff haha God bless you guys ☦️

[@beckyp7585]

“Purity spiraling” is such a great way to put this phenomenon. Great video and worth our reflection as we navigate the internet during these strange times.

[@pinesap34]

“Real trads stand up for women’s rights!” Yeah, no thanks

[@Roescoe]

How dare you deny them the right to sacrifice their unborn and even born children to Moloch and Baphomet respectively.

[@gregory_bloomfield]

I’ve been in the crazy rabbit hole . I was a Pentecostal/holiness/anabaptist/orthodox hybrid. I dressed as almost Amish. It was crazy. It’s been hard to climb out of this hole. I actually backslid or thought I did in order to get out. Now, I’m trying to get back to walking with Christ. It’s not been easy, but I’m trying.

[@D201-s2u]

You’re in a dangerous place. Cling to God and still pray. The grey area between being charismatic then a catechumen in Orthodoxy almost killed me.

[@londening]

@@D201-s2u I'm curious what tipped the scales for you from charismatic to Orthodox.

[@gregory_bloomfield]

@ what do you mean by the grey area?

[@taylorbarrett384]

Trying to walk with Christ is the safest place you can possibly be in. God bless you brother.

[@camilakhf]

If you don't mind me asking, how did you mix all of those denominations into one? Was it just you or did you belong to a church? You sound like you have a very interesting background story!

[@lanestp]

Divine Liturgy is indeed heaven on earth. Best decision I ever made was becoming Orthodox.

[@carsonianthegreat4672]

Catholics also have the Divine Liturgy.

[@matheusmotta1750]

​@@carsonianthegreat4672 Less than 1% of Catholics do.

[@AARon11414]

Please continue to be you in this space. There are many of us who are appreciative, who aren’t rooting for you to be, well, anything, but who are ourselves on our own journeys. Those of us like that want you so badly to continue in your discovery, and we’re here for the conversation. This commentary was sorely needed, even by half of your comments section. I am sorry to see that, because there is so much essential value to what you provide in your content, and it is fit for a studious audience who is seeking the formation of the Lord’s wisdom from the deepest reaches of their hearts. There are many of us here who do not need you to conform to one Christian tradition or another to validate our own perspectives. We are here for *you.* Although there are those in these comments who would rather be right than be like Christ, please hear me and others still saying that we love you, we appreciate your work, and your work in and of itself is a bulwark against crashing into the “iceberg” and sinking to our doom.

[@Ehllix]

BRO, well said!!!

[@jamesb6818]

There’s days where my anxiety is through the roof and my heads about to explode trying to figure it out. I then read 1 Corinthians 2:2 May we all rest in Christ. Peace brothers and sisters

[@stephenchelius7461]

This is an awesome video. Great, analysis and 100% spot on. I have stopped calling myself a traditionalist Catholic in these regards and gone back to just calling myself a Catholic because of this association with conspiracy and defining traditionalist purely in negative terms. For me, just as you said, to be traditional is to love tradition and to use it to bolster your faith in Christ. Anything else...is more of an idol of traditional concepts rather than using tradition towards its proper end, which is the Love of Christ.

[@MalarkusD]

Fr Seraphim Rose has some good comments on 'crazy converts.'

[@briandelaney9710]

Because he was one himself

[@tylerstewart7699]

No need to be disingenuous ​@@briandelaney9710

[@danielbrawner3677]

​@@briandelaney9710 Smart man, and pointed out a lot of things that are accurate and was borderline prophetic in how he saw things. He did what most didn't/couldn't/wouldn't and piinted out the trajectory of society (Orthodoxy and the Religion of the Future). His writings are wonderful.

[@maybesometime3713]

Fr. Seraphim was a very radical convert who claimed that everything outside Eastern Orthodoxy is heresy and error. Though at the end of his life he became more moderate

[@danielbrawner3677]

@maybesometime3713 yes. And he isn't wrong. He's just saying whats in the Nicean-Constantinopal Creed, but more direct, One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church. There is only One church that has the fullness of the faith, that has kept faithful to the traditions and beliefs and the faith that was handed down by the Apostles. By reciting the Creed, it's making a claim that the faith is the truth and all others are not. He isn't radical. Lmfao. Heresy literally just means incorrect. All he stated was the thing every "Denomination" and religion did before 1900. The roman catholic church before vatican 2 also said the same thing. He's making a truth claim when he's saying it. There is nothing wrong with saying what he did on Eastern Orthodoxy

[@jeffreytooms2965]

Thank you for this message because, if for no other reason, I feel validated as I have been losing sleep over this for some time now. My religious tradition has been flooded with converts who are more interested in attacking other denominations or worse cultural trends than being worshipful as the early fathers instruct us and more importantly as Holy Scripture does. I fear the love of Christ is being lost to the thrill of playing "gotcha". God bless you and this community.

[@MonicaHamalainen]

Austin, I don't normally comment at all on KZbin. But brother, you just put into clear and concise words what I have been feeling for several months as I try to navigate these culture wars within Christianity and within the modern world in general. Not only have I met many people who reach that last conclusion, but I myself have fallen into that way of thinking more times than I would like to admit. There seems to come about a deceiving assuredness and liberation when- out of a reactionary spirit-one clings to the platitudes and conclusions that you mention in order to separate themselves from the world and to have a sense of control. In reality, this kind of thinking can lead us down a road of foggy delusion and misguided passion by which we make an idol out of certainty and even morality itself. Seeking to be the "correct" ones, the "different" ones, we can fall into the trap of forsaking Jesus himself-the main object of our religion- to worship at the altar of self-assurance and purity spiraling.

[@pjla-lbl]

Oh, man. You described it so well. I think I've been in a similar rabbit hole, from top to bottom of the iceberg you depicted. I started as 'low-church non-denominational' and quickly went to 'everyone is a heretic.' Now I am a Roman Catholic, have stopped watching controversial KZbinrs and videos, and I'm happy now. 😅 As you said, Trent Horn indeed has some pretty good thoughts on this topic

[@countryboyred]

I can relate. I had a very similar journey as you, although I ended up in Orthodoxy.

[@kathrynhockenberry5286]

Yes! Thank you for calmly speaking out against the highly divisive, over heated rhetoric that is so prevalent on social media!

[@WilliamMcAdams]

I'm unironically a Monarchist. You don't have to be "radicalized" to come to that conclusion. It's actually a quite humbling position to take.

[@mortensimonsen1645]

The pope is a monarch. As a Catholic I live in a monarchy.

[@countryboyred]

The world was ruled almost exclusively by kings and queens for the entirety of human existence so I would say that being a monarchist is definitely not a radical position to take.

[@WilliamMcAdams]

@mortensimonsen1645 We have the same Monarch, kinsman. Medieval Catholicism was really what drew me to Catholicism, in the beginning. The beauty of the Mass and signal graces are what brought me Home.

[@WilliamMcAdams]

@countryboyred Precisely. That is why I say "it's actually incredibly humbling," as my outlook is that of "our ancestors weren't stupid, despite what we may be told, and if everyone everywhere believed there was legitimate reason to have a King, perhaps there is." Then I followed the reasoning, came to conclusions, became a Monarchist, and theological justifications for Monarchy actually came last in my experience. I do not appreciate how this gentleman framed the Monarchist position as one of mere LARPers -- as if there aren't completely rational ways to arrive at such a political position.

[@countryboyred]

@@WilliamMcAdams I completely agree with you and have come to a similar conclusion. Monarchy is biblical.

[@david6ravy]

Good points. When I joined the Orthodox Church, I thought I should focus on my repentance (which for us means the changing of the mind) and refrain from expressing my opinion on the internet for at least 3 years. That lasted a few months I think, but I have since been expressing my opinion on the internet. Austin's video convinces me that I should probably re-commit myself to the 3 years rule.

[@ninjason57]

So I definitely went down the iceberg to the level of "East-West decision". By God's grace I haven't stooped any further. I found myself in a state of information overload and ecumenical paralysis. I decided to focus on Jesus and finding a local church that will guide me in His way. The rest I leave up to Christ, I trust in His judgement and salvation.

[@tonyl3762]

Did you examine Erick Ybarra's book/videos?

[@davidgroves8413]

Ecumenical paralysis is a good phrase that describes my current position. I guess I’m sticking to a Mere Christianity and have decided the same. Nice to know I’m not the only one.

[@ninjason57]

@ I haven't read his book but I have heard many of his interviews discussing the summary of his arguments as well as his debates with both protestants and Orthodox.

[@tonyl3762]

@@ninjason57 I'm almost finished with his book. It is really good! Really takes the EO arguments and scholarship seriously. Doesn't ignore hard/problematic cases either.

[@countryboyred]

@@tonyl3762 I’ve read the book, it was ok. I find that Ubi petrus and Jay dyer do a good job of refuting many of Ybarra’s claims for the papacy.

[@donpattonjr]

I am an an Orthodox Christian convert. I have talked to a few Orthodox priests and was told that Salvation is found in God's grace. Those outside of the Orthodox Church can be saved. The fullness of the Church and ancient Christian teaching and tradition are in Orthodoxy, along with apostolic succession. This is what is being taught. Orthodoxy is taught that it is the Church established by the Apostles. This is why i am Orthodox ☦️

[@TboneWTF]

What do you need salvation from my friend?

[@donpattonjr]

@TboneWTF the penalty of separation from God and the judgment that comes with sin.

[@Damascene749]

It’s very difficult to be saved outside the Church, very few cases in history and hagiography.

[@donpattonjr]

@@Damascene749 How would you know? God is the judge...

[@TboneWTF]

@ "the penalty of separation from God and the judgment that comes with sin." Which god are you referring to: Vishnu? Buddha? Allah?

[@jamesbishop3091]

“It’s not about faith for most people, it’s about winning a culture war”. This describes 90% of “Christian” dialogues online, and I’m guilty of participating in that kind of behavior when I first became an EO inquirer. Forgive me brothers.

[@jarrahe]

Fun fact : St. Hippolytus has a writing that describes how in the early church, baptism was done while fully naked.

[@bonniejohnstone]

They had Female Deacons. Female Deacons were very useful!

[@daddydaycareky]

I guess When they got rid of this practice they no longer had use for female deacons anymore

[@JasonJrake]

Make sense in a day when people didn’t have closets fool of clothing….or the luxury of constant availability of privacy we do today.

[@jarrahe]

@JasonJrake absolutely. A great many early converts were Roman slaves who possessed exceedingly minimal amounts of clothing. I suspect that's also part of why the Christian customs of purity, modesty, and full clothing (which was rare in the pagan world) were seen as liberating for the poor and a borderline revolutionary attitude because regardless of your wealth or status, we are all equal in Christ who clothes us in His righteousness

[@GreasedDolphin]

Super early in the morning with cold water

[@AlaskaPilot18]

Fr. Stephen DeYoung had some relevant thoughts in a recent Lord of Spirits podcast about modernity - it's worth listening in full, but in a nutshell if I think I can crack open a book and find 'tradition' by myself (or even in a like-minded group), that's more post-modernist than traditional. Traditions are living things that are handed down, they're bigger than one person or even a whole generation, they grapple with particular places and times.

[@Afro-Capitalist]

The iceberg which you describe is the iceberg of pride and it only gets deeper when it is not rooted out with repentance, prayer, and fasting.

[@JohnBurton-p8k]

To the trads I’m a modernist, to the revolutionists I worship tradition…we’ve got to unite spiritually minded Christian’s and Christian academia!

[@5BBassist4Christ]

It is not cowardice to "refuse to take a side"; it sometimes requires great bravery, for those who stand between armies get shot by both of their arrows.

[@carsonianthegreat4672]

It’s weird to call the majority position in Britain (Monarchism) “radical,” “extreme.” and “reactionary”

[@KnoxEmDown]

You must forgive him, he is American. Republicanism is put into us from birth.

[@Vince-p3g]

When the UK's monarch is essentially a figure head and people are arguing for an absolute monarchy, yes that's radical

[@AntiSewingCircleChristianity]

It can be a reactionary belief for individuals. That doesn’t make it a wrong belief. I believe more in the Christian family unit model also as a reaction to the fact that my dad left when I was 1 and my extended family is crazy(even diagnosed).

[@polishprince9086]

You have your finger on the pulse with this one brother. Thank you for sharing, I needed to hear this.

[@shawnbrewer7]

I think most of this video is about people beginning to realize how deeply immersed they are in postmodernism. The points you made casually are serious misconceptions that are accepted as foundational truths in American culture. You’re 84 layers removed from the truth, and even when you reach layer 42, you’ll be a completely different person but still far from the end. I’m glad to see more people encountering St. Athanasius. He’s part of the foundational lessons taught on the very first day of Catechism class.

[@DeeGil]

Austin, you're a breath of fresh air in the midst of the centrifuge of trying to figure out what church should be for me.

[@actsapologist1991]

Hmm... I don't know if liking monarchy or disliking the 19th should be sitting there with holocaust denial.

[@tonyl3762]

I know, right?!

[@albertito77]

As someone who likes monarchy, dislikes 19tu century Liberalism AND dislikes holocaust denial, I have to acknowledge that the three can sadly be linked

[@brianbrownell689]

The 19th was a major mistake

[@jamesMartinelli-x2t]

@@brianbrownell689 "Women in government is sinful" - Pope Pius X - the last pope to have been a parish priest.

[@Roescoe]

It's funny how that one is put with opinions of policy, when It's more of a debate about the facts. Of course since those are sacred American cows they're all placed together.

[@jeremygr82]

I dont usually comment but man you nailed it. I went on this iceburg journey for almost 3 years until by Gods grace I started to realize what kind of rabbit hole i was being suckes down . A manmade human tradition sinkhole of hate for other humans. The exact opposite of where i was supposed to be and what Jesus taught.

[@rev.jon2277]

A reply of St. Joan of Arc to her judges sums up the faith of the holy doctors and the good sense of the believer: "About Jesus Christ and the Church, I simply know they're just one thing, and we shouldn't complicate the matter." CCC 795 Catechism of the Catholic Church 😊

[@mmbtalk]

That's highly problematic, you hear the Lord speaking and compare with the Catholic declarations, there are worlds apart!

[@rev.jon2277]

@@mmbtalk the task of the Church Jesus Christ founded is for us to be Saints, St. Joan of Arc is a Saint.

[@j.g.4942]

I didn't know Roman Catholics taught the invisible church. Or how does this divorce Jesus from the pornocracy and other abominations commited by the church?

[@mmbtalk]

@@rev.jon2277 But according to the Lord you are cleansed from sin by his blood and not by a Church declaring you a saint. Besides the Lord's disciples instruct us to examine everything and not just accept every claim (1 John 4:1-2, 1 Thessalonians 5:21-22). It will be a sin for me to adopt a practice given by some Church which claims to be speaking for the Lord, I must compare its message with the original witnesses. Even in the old testament, if a prophet prophesied falsely, he had to he rejected.

[@rev.jon2277]

@@mmbtalk even the Bible is from the Catholic Church, not the other way around. If you believe the Bible, you believe the Church that defined it.

[@alexandrah1622]

As someone, a woman at that, who's recently a serious inquirer of the Eastern Orthodox Church I've especially noticed this with what some have dubbed "Orthobros". Mostly younger men that are essentially all the way at the bottom of this meme. Some of the stuff regarding women's roles outside of church and even what they wear is incredibly unnerving. Not to mention I only ever see or hear them pipe up when someone is talking about traditions centered around local culture or talking down to someone regarding the sins said person (victim really) struggles with verses what Jesus actually taught and his miracles. I think calling it a culture war is spot on. I even had someone tell me once that people like that are there for the aesthetic and have some serious problems they themselves have to work out with God, but these people have to make the first step. Our fellow Christian's really need to start calling attention to this "purity spiral" otherwise this is going to literally spiral out of control if such mentalities are allowed to propogate. Luckily Ive noticed this mostly online, but I have read in some forums that some experience this sort of thing at their churchs. Not in large numbers thankfully, but I worry that this may spread to the younger generations that will eventually take up leadership positions within their own communities and churchs.

[@michaelburggraf2822]

The Easter orthodox churches are all more or less state churches, with the Russian-orthodoxy probably being the most extreme. And the Russian-orthodox church is certainly in a culture war against the west since it's massively infiltrated and connected to the FSB (formerly KGB). However Putin and his government aren't by far the only ones instrumentalising the Russia-orthodox church. The only time when their connection to ruling powers was interrupted was after the Russian Revolution during the time of the USSR. Yet even before during the empire of the tsars, the Russian-orthodox church was an integral part of the political system in Russia.

[@stizmac88]

As a relatively newly baptized convert to orthodoxy, I've noticed some of my fellow (at the time) catechumens were a little extreme. It seems to have toned down significantly as we have continued to participate in the community and interact with the women in our parish who are all wonderful, welcomed us converts with open arms, and are very loving. Nobody who experiences that will maintain those views for long. If that doesn't work remind them that the most holy person besides Christ himself to walk the earth was a woman . Most holy Theotokos save us ☦️

[@alexandrah1622]

@stizmac88 that's wonderful to hear! Praise God! Your experience even goes to show how his point about combating this is community and actually talking to other Christians within said community. So in actuality it's the online culture war of a perceived reality vs the real-life church and their true teachings. In other words, go touch some grass lol. I will say, I have pointed out the Theotokos and in some cases Priscilla on different subjects and that tends to end the discussion point blank. It just becomes exhausting and worrisome at times with how wide spread some of these beliefs are and in all honesty I detest the anger it brings out of me when I hear of it and to be subjected to it. The Jesus prayer is the only thing keeping me afloat during the heat of those moments sometimes. It's also just amazing for a lot of things I've come to realize.

[@user-og9fg2pz5p]

I'm a recent orthodox convert as well, and I've noticed this too, and it bothers me as well. I talked about with my priest, and he said that the church here knows about is and they have taken steps to address it. I don't know what the case for this is globally, but I would imagine that it is the natural next step for a lot of local churches. But the second point he brought up is that usually people who take part in the irl church life are not as extreme, or at least they don't spout that stuff openly. I hope this does not keep you from the Church and that you are able to find a community that is right for you. Keeping your eyes in what matters most, Christ, has helped me the most in the end 🙏

[@Skipsul]

Orthodox convert here too. The online Ortho-bros have a well earned rep for online nastiness, and unfortunately people often come across them quite early on when inquiring (especially if they're wondering why some beloved friend or relative has "swum the Bosphorus" - my wife ran smack into the bros when I started down the road). However, I will voice a somewhat contradictory opinion here: while there is a need to call out purity-spiraling, at the same time, like all things demonic (and I do consider it in that territory - the usual devils' tricks of taking something good and pure then marring and twisting it) often the best "treatment" is to warn people about it, but otherwise not to pay attention to it. The demons feed on our attention - even our negative attention (i.e. arguing with such people) - as it takes attention away from Christ. A good priest can usually spot the zealotry when it comes into their parishes and deal with it there, but very often the "bros" I don't think even have parishes.

[@shiloh6915]

The fact that many apologist don’t want to acknowledge this iceberg/pipeline is really sad. Thank you for addressing it and be honest about its ramifications. What is done in the dark, let be brought to light

[@Obilisk18]

This is why the Eastern cry to focus on living in the life of the church, which you see reflected in western Catholicism as well at times (your interviews with Dr. Aspray are an example) is so appealing to me. Because the appeal of tradition is that I'm sublimating my intellect and will and an appeal to tradition that makes me the arbiter of orthodoxy's TRUE boundaries is about as close to a contradiction in terms as I can imagine. If I thought I was competent enough to go heretic hunting on a grand scale I would not have become Catholic.

[@stephenmacmillan4178]

This is an excellent and very important 13 minutes. Thank you so much.

[@trvthnuclear]

I didn’t know that Christianity meant following Enlightenment values on voting and believing in a historical event that has nothing to do with the faith

[@AntiSewingCircleChristianity]

That’s some John Hagee type of Christianity

[@shawnhembree4145]

Thanks again Austin for offering balance and perspective- It helps to know I'm not alone in this experience.

[@Captain_Autismo]

I think you and Pope St Gavin are the best Protestant KZbinrs right now! Great video.

[@Thatoneguy-pu8ty]

Pope St Gavin haha 😂

[@GreasedDolphin]

He’s not a saint but pope is great way to describe him

[@Captain_Autismo]

@ Yeah because he has maverick views on traditions which he make pronouncements on and wants everyone to adopt, which would be a power typically reserved for a pope.

[@Captain_Autismo]

“I am tradition, I am Protestantism” -Pope Gavin

[@countryboyred]

Pope Gavin the Irenic

[@Кивис-ч3й]

What's wrong with Monarchy?

[@zacharymonroe94]

To equate the denial of universal sufferage, or belief in monarchy to Holocaust denialism is wild. The vast majority of governments prior to the past 150 years were both of these things. And neither of those things have to do with this. Im a non denom guy -- and i dislike universal sufferage. Pretty bland otherwise. Bad take.

[@albertito77]

He's right that many internet traditionalists (Orthibros, TradCaths and Cage Stage Calvinists) hold all three views. I am hokd 2/3 of these views (I accept the historicity of the Jewish Holocaust) and it is simply a fact that holocaust denial is often co-morbid with the other two

[@bobjenkins3rd]

We’d have to define terms here. I’ve never come across anyone that denied the holocaust outright. They’ll quibble over details and semantics, but that isn’t their main point.

[@AntiSewingCircleChristianity]

@@bobjenkins3rdI too have never heard someone seriously deny the holocaust.

[@realmless4193]

You picking the iceberg format is *such an absolutely amazing decision!* This format fits the topic better than *any* essay. Even the lowest, most terrible levels have something good that can be taken from them in my opinion, but ultimately when you get to the bottom you have to go back up and get back to the surface and breath and to say "wow, the Church Fathers are cool, the scriptures are beautiful, and God, I love you, and I love the Church, please keep me here."

[@susanraimo1582]

This is the most helpful analysis I have heard in a long time! Thank you.

[@Persona338]

The seventh level of the iceberg is why I had to go offline with this stuff for a while. I noticed a trend where younger, chronically-online influencers would use traditional aesthetics to promote unhinged political views. It got to the point that I started associating traditional religion with them because it was so rampant online, so I had to log off from that corner of the Internet.

[@roarkkaufman9339]

Monarchism is not on the same level as genocide denial man.

[@GospelSimplicity]

That's fair. The point wasn't to make an equivalence, but rather put two cultural observations on the same slide. Even then, it's less about the conclusions, and more the reactionary spirit of, "being based means rejecting the masses for the sake of rejecting the masses."

[@imbecilicGenius-hn3jo]

While the evangelical church does break me at my core, it has little to do with them being cringe and more to do with how they are invested in materialism and self worth. They mock the gospel focusing on politics and hate the idea of denying themselves. But I went to puritans and Spurgeon, only occasionally looking at the reformers and fathers. I think the puritans are highly underrated in the protestant community and are very needed to restore the church. They also keep one from going the direction of this iceberg by being low church.

[@deadalivemaniac]

How is being vulgar further down than Holocaust denial, which is on the same level as monarchism? I’ve met a lot of people in various traditions who can be rude and vulgar, I’ve met only a handful of Holocaust deniers. Most weren’t even Catholic or Orthodox, they were Lutheran.

[@308enjoyer]

This is a certified Stone Choir podcast moment

[@Apriluser]

Well put. Thank you. As an evangelical who has journeyed into the Anglican Tradition, I appreciate where I am. Anglicans draw from the great traditions (we are the reformed Catholic Church in England) Roman, Eastern, Protestant, and don’t need to tell other Christians they are outside the Church if they aren’t Anglican (at least I haven’t met any yet. 😊). I’m so tired of the trope “come home to the church Christ founded” line. I know Whom I have believed and can see the loveliness of Christ in all of the Traditions.

[@intherightlight]

Trope? Really?

[@countryboyred]

I don’t think I would call it a trope. Catholics and Orthodox both believe they are a part of the one true Church and when they claim that they aren’t being disingenuous. They truly believe that you must be a part of that specific Church because the body of Christ cannot be divided amongst many different sects.

[@thevillagesnatives3491]

As a former Protestant Clergyperson who converted to Catholicism I wholeheartedly agree. I will offer another danger that I see with this dangerous trend, Hyper Legalism.

[@richardstanley7661]

I am really interested in traditional Christianity lately like many other people are. I agree many people are doing this for the wrong reasons but many of us aren’t. I found out about liturgical prayer and it has changed my life. I used to sit in the dark with a wondering mind not knowing how to keep my mind on God and accomplishing nothing, to reading psalms and ancient prayer and now being able to keep my mind focused while praying “raw dog” (I know terrible phrase for this but you get it). Christ still has to be the focus!

[@SteelWalrus]

Why are my instincts telling me that this needs to spawn a Wendigoon collaboration?

[@thoughtfultheology449]

I’m just here to comment on the good good hat. Glad to see another golfer in this space!

[@JoyceMaKi001]

[@JerryAshl223]

Please how ?

[@JerryAshl223]

Am a born Christian and sometimes I feel so down 😭 of myself because of low finance but I still believe God😞

[@JoyceMaKi001]

It's Elizabeth Ann Hanson doing she's changed my life. A BROKER- like her is what you need.

[@JoyceMaKi001]

$356K monthly is something you should feel differently about....

[@Davidtheodore-z1f]

Lovely! I enjoyed it like I enjoy a $100k monthly around the turn!!!

[@livingbranches777]

I can see why you'd say that- the icebergs mostly an anxious reaction against athiesm and perversion- Because we are in Gods image the resistance against lies is inevitable. But I disagree that reading the Church Fathers will eventually be a toxic trip. Life with God should be filled with repentance, sweetness, and praying for others- like an Orthodox Divine Liturgy ☦️

[@chrisd653]

So you're saying women should be allowed to vote? 😅

[@Thatoneguy-pu8ty]

What is the law in your country lol?

[@AntiSewingCircleChristianity]

I’m not gonna lie, of course not. That’s illogical. A good chunk of people should not vote. Heck I shouldn’t. The vast majority of those people whom should not vote are women. I think that he’s just simping. With all due respect he sounded like a simp. Unfortunately Feminism exist in a lot of people and places. Including so called Christians. Saying that women shouldn’t vote is not historically or culturally weird and makes sense in light of that OT and NT. The HoHo denial has no tie to any sect or anything. Still it is an interesting topic. Also it’s not that most people are heretics. It’s that most people are involved and believe in heresies. Most people have no clue what heresy even is.

[@cabellero1120]

" The Internet is a strange place." No doubt about that.

[@NickAcker-m3l]

You absolutely hit the nail on the head. The only way forward is to start arguing the positive view (i.e., What is good about the things you do and believe?) and not the negative view (i.e., I'm an what I am because of what I'm against). I believe this is the way we heal both our churches, our culture, and our society.

[@catholicguy1073]

Yes everyone needs to get outside and go touch some grass. Don’t spend all your time online and put limits on usage that make sense

[@Geego23675]

Maybe the oposite of this iceberg is deciding to stay agnostic on most tough issues and assuming God won't judge your for it.

[@thescriptorium1206]

To be fair, i get that some of my camp fellows can be a bit much. Nonetheless i still stand by the monarchy/theocracy position. Christ is "king of kings" not "duly elected representative of duly elected representatives" 😂.

[@HighKingTurgon]

Now, Austin did not EXPLICATE this nuance, but I think it's fair to infer that he means a position that the social order ought to take monarchical forms-of course we live in a divine monarchy in the cosmic sense; I don't think you can meaningfully call yourself orthodox if you don't assent to that proposition. But until the end of the age we do not expect Christ to rule over the nations, so...what do we do in the meantime?

[@jtrlatinist2227]

Protestant convert to Catholicism here. I enjoy the more traditional liturgies and have some of the views you said, but you’re right. When I say do or research stops about being a better Christian than I’ve lost the strand. I need to go back and find it again. Thank you.

[@darby6560]

Never seen an iceberg video only clock in at 13min :)

[@paulthiele3102]

Spot on with your conclusion!

[@rubenmartinez4346]

Let’s cut to the chase: where is Jesus truly present in the most holy Eucharist. It’s not only biblical, but traditional and everyone believed this till the reformation. It’s that simple.

[@reviewandreflection]

The Reformers believed in the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist.

[@rubenmartinez4346]

@ by their fruits you will know them. Tell me how well their “belief” went?

[@AntiSewingCircleChristianity]

@@rubenmartinez4346lmao

[@InspironGantry]

Nice to see the channel according with its name :)

[@heavenbound7-7-7-7]

All church fathers agree with my denomination so I'm the most traditional.

[@toddvoss52]

😅

[@AntiSewingCircleChristianity]

What denomination

[@heavenbound7-7-7-7]

@@AntiSewingCircleChristianity Confessional lutheranism.

[@protestanttoorthodox3625]

Austin have you seen the new documentary on Icons? It’s called “The Hidden History of early Christian art”. It’s on the Harmony KZbin channel.

[@RS-yg2fv]

Agree 100%. So glad to see more people talking about this!

[@helenlosse4977]

I'm a Catholic covert. I chose Rome over the East, because we live in the West. Both have the Eucharist. I made a decision and went with it. I'm so glad i did.

[@jakedycus2959]

Great video brother! 🙏🏻

[@irislake7387]

Holocaust denial should not be linked with monarchy. You are misunderstanding this concept. The intention is that God is good and all knowing, all power flows from Him and people should submit to Him and serve Him. But God also sacrificied Himself to serve His people. Monarchs should strive to be good like God, serve the Lord but also sacrifice themselves to serve their people. It shall be on earth as it is in heaven.

[@christusenciaga]

This has not happened to me. That being said, every Christian should be a monarchist 😁

[@exmanolive305]

Yeah, I don’t even attend the Latin Mass and yet I am still a monarchist. I was a bit confused and had to question myself on if that was really a radical idea to have. 😂

[@matthewbrooks5756]

Just because something seems crazy does not mean it's false. It is very likely that it seems crazy because you're the one who is conditioned to believe something that is not grounded in facts or logic. It could also be that your own political views and general biases are causing anything that is contradictory to what makes you comfortable by avoiding conflict with the established view of your group feels a bit too "out of touch" or radical at all. Be more open-minded, and don't be afraid to question the narrative. Actually, question everything.

[@Josh_kel7]

As someone who did go to Bible School and is now leaning very into Anglicanism, I have found myself also falling down the rabbit's hole, I cannot agree more. If our Theology or zeal is not Christlike, it doesn't really matter. The "Tradcath", "Based", movements are hurting the church. Though I'm glad to see the increased interest in Christianity, but I feel like so many are coming and not knowing the nature of Christ. Balance guys, tearing down the body is one of the worst sins we can commit.

[@philip506]

I encourage everyone to find the truth by following the facts where they lead you, rather than putting labels on people, including labels that end with "denier".

[@crushtheserpent]

I made a similar comment

[@heremtica]

Dude you're so cool and edgy for denying the holocaust, now explain to me how thinking Lord Rothschild is controlling the world from beyond the grave is going to get you into heaven.

[@alexpaskalis4248]

Exactly. Everyone wants to put everyone in a nice religious/identity box. Truth is truth

[@cabellero1120]

I've always thought it was quite strange That Evangelicals are Sola Scriptura and yet they completely dismiss the OT. The Old Testament IS part Of The Bible! "Christians aren't under the Law!" But, You can Learn From it... Even, Our Lord did not speak against it The Scriptures say " The Law Of The Lord Is Holy.. That IS IN The Bible!!

[@ElijahRexNewcomb]

Hot take: Monarchy or theocracy isn’t inherently extremism. Political structures can either support or hinder the pursuit of virtue and human flourishing. Questioning the political forms produced by the Enlightenment isn’t unreasonable. Nation-states and democratic regimes are extremely recent phenomena, often championed by anti-Christian radicals and opposed by Christians of their time. Catholic social teaching is deeply Gospel-centered, and many modern proponents approach these discussions with great charity. It’s possible to critique democracy and liberalism because we genuinely want what’s best for others. For further exploration, check out the work of New Polity or Andrew Willard Jones' Before Church and State.

[@AntiSewingCircleChristianity]

It’s not a hot take. God established kings not presidents and donors.

[@matheusmotta1750]

I think this video should be rather titled: "The Iceberg of Evangelicals into Weird Internet Traditional Christianity Rabbit Holes"

[@danielfernandezpeinado6294]

5:21 we Catholics don't say that the East is heretic. A schism is a division of the one true church under the same creed, so we don't consider each other heretics. We have no problem in saying the same Nicene-Constantinople creed in Greek. Also, that oversimplification is a useless model to discuss the actual situation. If you want to address the situation, don't fall for that internet caricature cringe brain rot, but discuss the matter with an Orthodox representative and a Catholic representative. For example, Bishop Barron and Father Josiah Trenham or Voice of Reason and Jonathan Pageau.

[@TboneWTF]

Why does god allow such a division? Why does he allow the strife to continue?

[@user-zo2ge3oe8d]

@@TboneWTF for the same reason he allows sin to continue. The divide is man made. Look at the divide between Judah and Israel in the Old Testament.

[@countryboyred]

@@TboneWTF why does God allow anything to happen? We are human and have free will.

[@TboneWTF]

​@@countryboyred "why does God allow anything to happen? " What credible evidence do you have that your god is real and true?

[@countryboyred]

@@TboneWTF pray to God tonight and ask Him to reveal Himself to you. I’m serious. Do it with an honest heart.

[@Vince-p3g]

I'm Catholic and one thing that's bothered me a lot from the trad culture is that it often feels like they instead of lifting up traditions they tear down others legitimate Catholic practices like the Novus Ordo or receiving in the hand. It's actually that attitude that's kept me away from trying the Latin Mass.

[@d0g_0f_Christ0s]

Mine's been this exact path, the Lord knows. In the 5th year, it's crushing brother. 'Stay as you were called', is doing laps in my head. Thank you for this video. God bless & keep you 🇦🇺

[@jebmassaro7370]

It is true the we must both (1) pursue the proper end and (2) pursue it for the proper reason. We shouldn't affirm or deny a position based on whether or not our culture affirms or denies it. We should affirm or deny it based on its merits. A thing's status as "traditional" or "modern" is relevant, but it is not the only relevant data point.

[@borkdude]

Recently discovered William Weedon, Lutheran, might be interesting to interview on your channel

[@SibleySteve]

One benefit of going to a right wing legalistic IFB Christian school in the early 80’s, as an outsider from a public school, is how I learned to cope with “Taliban level” crack pots at an early age. This inoculated me to future purity spiraling. Now I can’t in-see Augustine’s Hermeneutic: our reading is Scripture should be judged by 2 questions, do we love God more from this interpretation of what I read, and do I love my neighbor more by my interpretation of scripture? If we consume any content and do not come away more loving, we have come to the wrong interpretation.

[@garrett2514]

5:38 these two contradictory claims about the fundamental essence of God surely matter. We can’t just toss our hands up and say that we don’t want to call people heretics so it’s not a big deal, right?

[@VeronicaBrandt]

CS Lewis is the Protestant Pope :) I love this. (I'm reading Mere Christianity for the first time - one of those books everyone says you should read and turns out they're right)

[@CJ-rk5eg]

Really appreciate your description…”non reactionary traditionalism” Well said. In other words, as I see it, a “centrist” point of view that is neither judgmental “fire and brimstone” nor “everything is ok and acceptable.” It is not human judgement about others that matters, but rather the His at the final judgment. Through “theosis” we get to practice and prepare for that moment.

[@albertito77]

These Warren dwellers are partially right in that Pietism is false

[@jeffreydavis9757]

If you just go down as deep as the "latin mass" and "divine liturgy" level and no further, it's pretty awesome.

[@bobjenkins3rd]

I wouldn’t consider the top to bottom items as a pipeline, but more a pattern of seeking truth wherever it leads. From a mainstream perspective, following traditional Christianity is the most dangerous idea on your list. In fact, for many your list is inverted. They started with the bottom items and transitioned up.

[@TboneWTF]

I've never found anything meaningful in the bible that common sense and empathy didn't already teach me.

[@bobjenkins3rd]

⁠​⁠@@TboneWTFright. That’s the same view I had for much of my life because I wasn’t understanding it properly. The messages are quite different than what would be considered common sense today or in the days it was written.

[@Roescoe]

​@@TboneWTF Yeah? how about this one Numbers 31:15-18 "Have you allowed all the women to live?” he asked them. “They were the ones who followed Balaam’s advice and enticed the Israelites to be unfaithful to the Lord in the Peor incident, so that a plague struck the Lord’s people. Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man." You probably should read it again looking out for those things which are odd like that. Consider and ask why they are different.

[@skatermom8259]

Great video and important topic. As there are more and more inquiries into ancient Christianity (myself included) we must examine ourselves. Thoroughly. We must NOT go towards tradition in a reaction against modern, because this breeds anger and resentment. We must focus on Christ. If we go towards tradition it’s to seek Christ. Everyday, this is a spiritual battle to move towards Him, while everything in the world (and on the internet) wants nothing but to distract you from that main purpose of life. Spend minimal time on the internet. Spend more time out in real life, attending church, praying, confessing, helping people. Focus on Christ. Love people. Forgive others and always be in a repentant state. Remember that none of us know everything. Be humble. Lord have mercy 🙏🏽♥️

[@overlandkltolondon]

This happened to me in the late 80s and early 90s. This exact process. Definitely before the Internet!

[@rexlion4510]

In this characterization, I had the advantage of being raised Roman Catholic and then being drawn out of that group by the Holy Spirit. That background tempered my experience so I knew better than to run toward the RC/EO dilemma. When the places I attended began preaching less Bible and adopted the "stage performance" type of song service, the Lord led me to a place with traditional liturgy and hymns that still teaches the Solas: an ACNA Anglican parish.

[@brianbrownell689]

Are we for Christ or our political ideology? Is what i ask about women's ordination. You don't need internet rabbit holes to open the Bible and read what it says. And if we're just going to pick and choose the parts of the Bible we like, what was the point of the reformation? Maybe that was the point. People want Jesus on their own terms, not on his. Ive heard of right wing Christianity online but ive never seen it in person. Radical left woke Christianity is everywhere tho.

[@AntiSewingCircleChristianity]

Christianity is the basis of everything. That means it even becomes the basis for any political ideology one may develop(making the mainstream conservatives vs liberal or republican vs democratic dumb). That includes women not voting(and a lot more people really)

[@tonyl3762]

You should go read about what GK Chesterton had to say about women's suffrage. Very insightful. Not sure why you lump together patriarchy and monarchy with Holocaust denial or theocracy. When did patriarchal voting or monarchy become "weird" and beyond the pale for a Christian?

[@Labr10938]

It's because he is a leftist

[@albertito77]

I would personally like voting to only be for landowners and America to become a Monarchy. I believe that these two views are informed by my faith.. but I also know that they will never happen in my lifetime.

[@AntiSewingCircleChristianity]

Ahh yes the modern day so called Christian. And people wonder how we got to the gay pastors

[@tonyl3762]

@@albertito77 I can see a lot of value in those propositions, though not sure if/how you intend to combine them in one system?

[@stuntman083]

if women can't be drafted then why should they be able to vote? It's simple logic and makes perfect sense

[@Roescoe]

Similarly Do you remember when Jesus declared that the kingdoms of the earth should be abolished for democracy?

[@stuntman083]

@Roescoe how will the Church ever survive if women can't vote! Lol

[@Roescoe]

@@stuntman083 I know. Imagine women focusing on things like raising children at home to love Jesus. How will the synagogue of Satan survive?

[@AntiSewingCircleChristianity]

I’ll be honest here. As time passes I’m becoming of the type to profile people. He looked exactly like the type of guy to use voting rights for women in the more extreme tier than everyone is a heretic(which I don’t know any group that formally states that but them again I don’t know much). He fits the profile

[@AARon11414]

Is your hat a reference to Genesis 1’s “very good,” in Hebrew, literally translating “good good?”

[@NoSabine]

I have a completely different question when I look at the development of the debate between modern American Protestantism and traditional Christianity. From a distance, it all looks like mental yoga exercises to me. We stretch and twist our thoughts a little, wonder about the poses of others, try it too and find it advantageous or not. And that applies to the more agreeable positions as well as to the people who followed very strange white rabbits into their holes and whose positions seem painful. Yes, of course, we don't want to make the bloody mistakes of the past. We have grown from that as a civilization. We hold people, even when they are wrong, in higher esteem than ideas. Fine. Or is it all just an excuse because postmodernism has already eaten our hearts? Have we grown as a civilization or has our concept of truth eroded so that we no longer want to risk our lives for it? And if we want to be traditionalists, are we willing to take the traditional path of bearing witness? And if we don't want to be traditionalists, what's the point of all this? If it's not worth dying for, it's not worth living for.

[@AntiSewingCircleChristianity]

Truth has eroded so much that now people don’t even think that truth is objective. That now people hold positions that make justified true beliefs impossible.

[@themasterofcontent4155]

Phenomenal video!